Dr. Ramani: Narcissism 101 - How to Identify Toxic Traits and Set Boundaries - A Really Good Cry

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
They're not only living amongst us. They're running the show.
They're running the countries, they're running the states, they're running
the companies, they're running the media, they're running everything. This
is their world. We're just living in it.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
I kill them both, just like he said I did,
But of course nobody believed it, because that's how good
we are at making things disappear.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
There's parents out there who overvalue their kids, who over
indulge their kids, and are lenient with their kids. That's
the pastor grandiose starcissismy.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm sorry that people are so jealous of me, and
I can help it that I'm popular.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Are they capable of love?

Speaker 4 (00:36):
Is a Nazist capable of the concept of love and
caring for someone?

Speaker 2 (00:40):
You? It's me. I love everything I have done, I
have done for you this even is.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
There a possibility for this personality disordered to be taken
away from someone like?

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Can you have it and then be cured from it?

Speaker 4 (00:58):
Well, I'm rather Dablukiah and on my podcast A Really
Good Cry, we embrace the real, the messy, and the beautiful,
providing a space for raw, unfielded conversations that celebrate vulnerability
and allow you to tune in to learn, connect and
find comfort together.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you so much for being here. I have to
say that, so I came.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
I've seen your work so much over Instagram and on
social media, but I listened to Jay's podcast with you
and him, and I became so obsessed with everything that
you share, not just what you share, but the way
that you share it. You just have such a calm
presence about you, and you feel so you almost feel
like someone that you know so well. Just by watching

(01:41):
you seem so comfortable and you're so relatable at the
same time. So thank you for that, and I feel
so honored to have you on the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
I'm honored to be here again. Are you almost his family?
So yeah, of course as well. Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
I have so many questions for you. So much came
up when I started listening to what you do. I
have abundant questions, and I gather them from my own
mind and from so many other people that.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I spoke to.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
So I kind of just want to start off with
asking straight up, what is the definit I know that
you focus your work on narcissism and helping people to
understand it, and you know so many different dynamics. I
know that you also help people who have been in
narcisstic relationships, and so I want to start off by
asking because I feel like many people use the term
very loosely and also sometimes don't know what they're even

(02:27):
saying when they say, what is a narcissist? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:30):
So narcissism is a personality style. Okay, like any personality
style happens to be a more maladaptive, rigid personality style.
But all that said, it's a personality style. And I'm
putting such a fine point on that because it's not
a disorder. They're break great out of that right now.
So narcissism's personality style again, maladaptive, not great, but it

(02:50):
is what it is. It is characterized by entitlement, grandiosity, variable,
and usually low empathy. These are personalities that tend to
be very controlling. There is a obviously tremendous egocentricity, and
they're validation seeking, validation and attention seeking. They need constant attention, validation, praise,

(03:13):
people focusing on them, and all of these things I'm
talking about. The grandiosity, the validation seeking, the entitlement are
really defenses that are pretty deep seated insecurity and a
poorly developed sense of self. They have trouble with regulating emotions.
So when things aren't going their way, they're disappointed, they're stressed,

(03:35):
they're frustrated, they will lash out very quickly. And in
that way, people who spend time with narcissistic people will say,
there are times when this person is literally the most charming,
charismatic person in the room. And then I got to
know them more and I got closer into their world,
and then I would see if things weren't just the
way they wanted them, there would really be hell to pay.

(03:57):
So that's really what narcissism is, and a narcissistic person
as a person who has those kind of personality style.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
So when I was listening to the podcast with you
and Jay and I had those qualities being being spoken about,
there was an Honestly, I came away from the podcast just.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Thinking like, I feel like, with the way that we.

Speaker 4 (04:15):
All live our lives on social media, how generally everyone
has certain aspects of those qualities. And I came away
from it where I was like genuinely asking you, I
was like, I think I might have narcissistic qualities, not
because I felt like I had all of them, but
I did feel like to a certain degree, Like if
we think about sense of self importance or entitlement, I

(04:35):
feel like in this day and age, it's quite difficult
to when you actually reflect on yourself you do have
those qualities or we can have a level of them,
or even if I think about, you know, the way
that we expect the one for people to give you
attention and fame, Like I remember I got a DM
once that was like, you're such a narcist, you just
like people seeing you all the time.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
And I was like, am I like's you know?

Speaker 4 (04:58):
There are so many different levels to these qualities, and
so I wonder like, and like you said about the
insecurity part of it, a lot of these do come
up based on our insecurities that we get from childhood.
Let's say, how do you differentiate between someone having one
of these qualities or a few of them? And is
there not some sort of spectrum that lies on.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
So narcissism miss on a continuum, right, okay, And there's
a couple of different ways to view this continuum. One
end is quite of my old narcissism. I call them
instagram narcissists. These are people who tend to be superficial,
status oriented, attention oriented, and they're not able to bring
their full deep selves into a human relationship. So they're
always like, take a picture of me at dinner, and

(05:39):
yet there's someone else at the table is clearly struggling,
but they'll still be all be all about but you
have to take a picture of me at dinner. I
need it for my Instagram kind of thing. And so
there's an emotional stunted immaturity to them. What they don't
tend to have so much of the malignant qualities, the
manipulativeness and the exploitativeness and all of that. As you
get into the middle of that spectrum and more moderate

(06:01):
narcissistic people, that's what most of us are dealing with now.
It's a bit more of a problem though. There's really
no way to have a successful, long term, healthy relationship.
But someone like that, because of the variable empathy, because
of the grandiosity, entitlement, the dysregulation, all that stuff, it
gets in the way of it. There's a very little
capacity for intimacy, there's a little interest in closeness. A

(06:23):
long term, sustained relationship often doesn't have the novelty they want, right,
people kind of get uninteresting to them. Now at the
extreme end, now we're talking about people who are exploitative,
who are coercive, who are very manipultive to isolate, a
person who will really do a psychological number, and so
along that spectrum, obviously there's a lot of variability. Somebody

(06:44):
who's in a relationship, let's say, with a very mild
narcissistic person, will say they're immature and they're ridiculous. And
I don't know that you'd have a very easy time
raising kids with someone like that, because they will lack
that depth and the discipline and the commitment to something
like that. But I do think that again, the thing
to keep in mind, you said, what if I'm one
of these things? Right, I don't think any one of

(07:07):
those things is ever going to be the ringer. Like,
the idea of any personality is its consistency, it's pervasiveness,
it's stability across multiple situations. Right, this is how this
person is. And the challenge with narcissism is when they're
well supplied, when they feel safe, they look great, they
look interesting e gauging again, charming, charismatic. But then when

(07:33):
the things don't go exactly the way they want, it
always turns out and if they don't value someone, So
in other words, you will see the narcissistic person flip
very quickly from treating a high status individual really nicely
and they're very careful with them and they're very warm,
but then when they're with a lower status person, they
will degrade them and they will abuse them. And that

(07:55):
could literally happen in a fifteen second transition. So, I mean,
if anyone's ever wanted succession, I was just I was
watching an old episode last night and Tom, if you
watch those early episodes, it happened more Tom, the wife
of Shiv. Tom was talking to a very high executive
at the company and he got really berated and you know,
and he was like sort of taking it. But as

(08:16):
soon as he could, he found God the cousins name, Yeah,
he found Greg and he just completely was cruel to him.
So he regulated by abusing someone because he had to
tolerate that bad behavior because that person at higher status.

Speaker 4 (08:34):
How would we recognize the difference between insecurity showing up
and someone having these narcissistic traits or are they does
it blend well?

Speaker 1 (08:43):
So I'm very insecure. Start with me. Just keep it
in the room, right, I'm deeply insecure person, and I
would not lash out at another human being. The vast
number of insecured people won't do that. In fact, if anything,
most insecure people are very internal themsel Now narcissistic people
do both. To sort of give a more round view
on narcissistic people, one thing that if you I've worked

(09:06):
clinically with many of them, is that they also sometimes
don't talk nicely to themselves either. They can actually be
quite cruel in their self talk, but that the scales
get balanced with them lashing out at others too, Whereas
a person who had narrowly might internalize that talk wouldn't
do that to other people. Why because they'd be worried
about hurting them. The narcissistic person doesn't trouble themselves with

(09:28):
the pain they cause others.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Wh That's so interesting.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
And when it comes to the empathy aspect, I know
that's a big part of it, where they just lack empathy.
How would you define what empathy actually is? Because when
I think about empathy for myself, like when I was
breaking it down after hearing you speak before in my mind,
I was thinking, there are so many layers to why
I feel empathy for people. So when I'm feeling empathy

(09:52):
for someone, it might be you know, I feel sorry
for them because of the circumstance that they're in, But
do I truly care about them? That for me is
a different quality, because I think it's easy to say, Okay,
there's people in just a grand example, like there's there's
someone in Africa that's starving and doesn't have any money
or any food or anything any of the basic needs

(10:12):
that they need. I feel sad for them, But do
I truly care about them? Like, do I truly feel
that that inclination to go and help them? And in
the same way, even if it's let's say our friends
or our family, how do you differentiate between having real
empathy or whether it's because of duty or because of
what you're receiving in the back from them, or because

(10:33):
of what you're getting from giving to them. So I know,
from a person example, I used to and I've tried to,
you know, change that as time has gone on, But
do a lot for other people because it validated myself,
Like that was my way of I know I have
importance in your life because of all the things that
I'm providing for you, and so I have to keep

(10:53):
providing and I have to keep being that person in
your life. Otherwise where is my value? So with empathy,
that's why I know that question came up in my mind.
What is true empathy? And how do you see in yourself?
And how do you see in other people?

Speaker 1 (11:08):
So there's different ways to think about empathy. Okay, so
there's emotional It does start with cognitive empathy. So to me,
the least interesting or the least useful form of cognitive empathy.
Cognitive empathy is when you sort of understand why someone
is feeling the way they do. It's it's very much
it's an intellectual activity. It's when you're in a movie.
Those aren't real people, so but you feel a sense

(11:30):
of like, oh that that character is suffering. I understand
why that character is angry. I understand why that character
is sad. I understand why you are upset. Right, But
it really doesn't connect emotional. It's like it's a niling
in some ways. Some people it might even consider that
emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Then there is emotional empathy. That's the more deeply felt empathy.
Whereas a person with cognitive empathy may say I understand
why they're angry, but you may not see much of
a change in their emotional state. When it's emotional empathy,
our emotional state changes, right, because if you're sadness feeling
empathy for your sadness, which is a natural act, you

(12:08):
would see a change in my affects too, right, I
would become more subdued, and it can affect me. In fact,
there's sort of a doubt. There's a little bit of
a dark side to empathy of a person feels too
much of the other. They then then start taking on
all that that negative mood stay too, which would be
very There has to be some ability to say, I
feel with them, but it is not my pain, right,

(12:29):
so I feel them, and so it might You might
then speak to them in a certain way. You be
present with them, You'll mirror their emotions, you may cry
with them. That's emotional empathy, which is to me very
important in close relationships. Yet then there's compassionate empathy. And
compassionate empathy is where that feeling for the other turns
into behavior. So it might be that you move in

(12:51):
with a sick friend it might be that you stay
on the phone even an hour longer than you you
could afford to. It's an action, so it turns into
an action, you know. And then what you were and
so you were talking about this idea, there's somebody on
the other side of the world who is struggling or
maybe hungry. Now you're talking about sympathy, right, which is
different than empathy. Right, it's now connecting to pain in

(13:12):
a different way. When you feel empathy for someone, do
you care for them? I mean, I think that you
know at some level becomes sort of a semantic mincing.
You may not know them enough to do so in
a sense of there's someone else in the room with
us now, I don't know him, so it would be
a little bit generous for me to say I care
for him. Yes, I don't know him enough. I have

(13:33):
empathy for him. Something sad happened to him, I would
feel that and probably say can we stop because he's upset.
I don't know him, so how can I really care
for him?

Speaker 4 (13:42):
Right?

Speaker 1 (13:42):
I think that would be an overreach. If you will
right now as I got to know him, if we've
developed a friendship, that would be the evolution of caring
for him, but I could have empathy without caring for him.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
Oh my god, thank you for that differentiation, And that
makes that really does clarify.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
So like all the different levels, You're right.

Speaker 4 (13:59):
When I hear out someone that has something painful happened
to them, I don't know them, but I feel like
the pain because you kind of put yourself into that situation.
But then when it happens, like when my grandma got
on well, and I like when I hear other people's
grandmas have become unwell, in my mind, I feel sad
for them, but I don't necessarily have that deep like
emotional change within me.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, it's not a big change, and you're carried around
with you right, Like, Yeah, there are some people who
actually err on the side of taking it in too
much that actually can have health effects. And there's almost
too much of itness. And a big part of being
trained as a therapist is year over year over year
to be emphatically present. But we can't rescue them, we

(14:40):
can't change them. So I could see seven clients in
a day, but then I can go I'll do my notes,
I finished my files, I said done, and I'll watch it.
To watch a TV show and laugh at it, you know.
Without That's why the training of a therapist is so important.
It's not that it trains the care out of us.
It's not that it trains the empathy out of us,
but it teaches us how to be fully present with

(15:01):
those feelings but then not allowing it to overtake us.
And just starting out, therapists will say that's harder. I've
been doing it for a long time. Then it's just
sort of it's a you know, and if you can't
get there, sometimes there's a tremendous burnout and you have
to leave the business.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
I feel so many people probably don't even know the
difference between those stages and to even those different types
of empathy that there are. And so for me now,
even when I'm observing myself, I feel like that will
give me a really good idea of the difference between
my emotional response to someone and how And I always
think about that when I'm speaking to a friend and
I'm having a conversation with them and they're having a

(15:35):
hard time. There are sometimes where I feel like crying
my eyes out because.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Of how sad I feel for them.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
But then there are other times where they're telling me,
and I'm like, I need to show a bit more
emotion right now, because.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
You know, absolutely absolutely yes, that's.

Speaker 4 (15:48):
More because it's in my cognitive empathy versus in my
emotional empathy.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
And there's you know, again, we could even take these
forms of empathy out to a different direction. I consider
there to be something called performative empathy. So if we
know that empathy. Listen, people know empathy is largely valued.
I mean unless you're sort of in some sort of
horrific business setting where everyone is just sort of destroying
each other or something that this idea that somebody could

(16:11):
be performative with their empathy. This is where we get
back into the narcissism neighborhood. Narcissistic people know to be
warm and to feel and all that. They can be
very performative with that, but it's not deeply felt. There's
also transactional empathy. I'm going to be empathic to this
person long enough to get what I need from them,
and so they can really turn it on and be

(16:32):
that person get the thing they need. And then the
next time you have an accounter with this person, perhaps
thinking they're oh so empathic, you got nothing because they
already got what they needed. So I mean empathy I
do believe can be weaponized and often is weaponized by
people who are more antagonistic, which narcissism is a form
of that.

Speaker 4 (16:49):
Antagonism is narcisism something that you're able to identify just
by watching someone, or when you do a consultation with
someone and you're trying to find out what would be
the type of quoestquestion since you asked them, like, how
would you come to the conclusion that this person has
a narcisstic you said, personality?

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yes, it takes a minute, right, okay, I would you
know there's I think somebody would be lying if they
said in five minutes I could figure out someone starcissistic,
unless they were so glaringly narcissistic that even like an
untrained anybody would say there's something. They may not know
the word narcissistic, but say this isn't okay. But when
a client comes in, obviously we spend at least the

(17:30):
first or second session and a lot of assessment will
brought you in and relationship histories. There are some tells though.
One thing would be sort of how they interact with
the therapist in terms of even making arrangements their respect
for the time. So it would be if they stroll
in fifteen minutes late and say we could go a
little bit later, right, because and I'm thinking no, after

(17:52):
I'd very much explained to you that this is your
time and it doesn't go we don't start early, we
don't lay there's someone after you. So if I was
why that sort of entitlement creep into the scene, If
they would be demanding out of session time, texting, calling, emailing, whatever,
that would certainly make my ears perk up. If they
were very dismissive and you know, towards me, making inappropriate

(18:15):
comments about appearance or anything like that, that would make
my ears perk up. Would that make me say they're narcissistic. No,
I'd still want more data as they shared with me
their history and how they manage conflict, how they manage disappointment,
that's all going to come out in therapy. I mean,
I would say the definitively, definitively, in the absence of
giving them structured tests and stuff like that, I would

(18:38):
say you'd have to probably meet a client two, three,
four times before you'd be able to entertain that hypothesis
in a heavy way. If you get tests and the measurements. Sure,
maybe one or two sessions. And it's for this reason,
Radie that when people will say, how could I have
been so dumb? How could I have missed this? I
tell to a layperson's in a relationship, So that's going
to take you out a year on average. Just some

(18:59):
people figured it out earlier. Sure, but I think that
for many people, they'll say, it took me a year
to see that all this toxic stuff was a pattern.
There was so much other good stuff. Now I see
it is a pattern. I see it might even be
bothersome for me. So when people say it it took
me two years, I said, that's about right. You know,
I'm in a room looking for stuff and trained to

(19:21):
look for stuff, and it takes me a minute. So
of course, in a relationship, especially if you're having good
stuff happen with a very charming, charismatic, narcissistic client, you
might And I'm the only person probably out there who's like,
you're charismatic. Now, all of a sudden, my years are
really worked out.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
And so then do you think people are born with
this quality? And it's something which you can't get rid
of or is it something that is triggered in someone
based on, you know, a lot of trauma or something
that's happened in their life.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
So the way you get to narcissism is it's a
very multidetermined path, right. So the way your personality is
formed is we're kind of born with the seed of
our personality, call our temperament that has a genetic element
to it. It's sort of you would even see it
in a family. Someone will say, oh my gosh, the
way she laughs is just like this, auntie or something
like that. That's temperament, right, the way someone might handle
certain pressure stresses. All that, that temperament goes out in

(20:16):
the world, and it's shaped by environmental interactions. Okay, those
environmental or interactions with the people closest to them, with
people in their community and even in the society at large,
will then continue to shape that personality out. Parenting matters.
The way a child is parented is probably the most
significant predictor of narcissism in adulthood. And we're looking at

(20:38):
two pathways again, So not only are there multiple pathways,
the neglect, chaos, inconsistency, even trauma pathway that gets us
to a place that's either called malignant or vulnerable narcissism.
That's more victimized and it's more resentful and angry and
socially anxious. The malignant narcissism is that more severe, manipulative

(20:59):
explos that's where that route gets you. But there's parents
out there who overvalue their kids, who overindulge their kids,
and are lenient with their kids. That combination, you're the
most special kid, You're more special than the other kids.
That's the path to grandiose starcissism. And so what you

(21:20):
have is these different pathways getting to kind of a
similar place. These are kids who are entitled who don't
learn to regulate their emotions. The vulnerable and malignant group
perceive a lot more threat in the world. The grandiose
people have all these grandiose defenses around an inner core
that never really sort of learn to be a person,
and so they really do walk in the room thinking

(21:42):
they're more special. You can see that's not going to
work in relationships. So and then they're having environmental interactions.
Let's say that overvalued, overindulged, leniently parented, over special kid
keeps being told by other people how special they are.
You've now made a monster. But that child may go
to school and maybe they're lucky they have a compassionate

(22:04):
teacher that says, you know, there's other kids, we're all
going to wait in line. Then, but the line leader
position changes every day and that might balance some of
it up. But the parents are going to have a
potent influence and so, and you throw that in with temperament.
If you have a kid with a difficult temperament, yes,
that's the game changer, right, because that difficult temperament with
all that either that overindulgence or that chaos or that trauma,

(22:26):
and then negative environmental interactions, that's where you're taking that.
You're shaking it all up, probably in more narcissistic direction.
But if you have a child with the temperament that's
sort of the seed of an agreeable personality, even those
environmental conditions may not then get them to a narcissistic plate,
the place they might be a little bit demand y
and they might be a little bit entitled, but it's

(22:50):
not going to be a full blown narcissism.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
And then do they when you do see like when
you've obviously seen so many people in your clinics. Do
you find that at all of it has come from
traumatic things or you find it's more to do with
this who you've seen both?

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, wow, that's it's.

Speaker 4 (23:07):
So interesting that it can come from even being too loved,
almost not even you loved.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
You're over special, You're more special. You're the most special child.
No child is more special than you. It's all kids
are special. You're special. That kid's special, but it's that
you're better.

Speaker 4 (23:26):
You're almost training them to feel that entitlement before they
even experience it themselves.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
That's exactly. And their parents are modeling it too. They're
watching parents behave in an entitled way, perhaps speaking rudely
to a teacher or a coach, or a server in
a restaurant or anyone. They'll see that happen over and
over again, and it creates sort of this closed universe. Now,
sometimes kids like that will be shaped by peers will
say who are you to say this? And that might

(23:53):
shape it in a different direction, you see. That's what
I'm saying. These environmental forces are almost like the water
going down a canyon. It's going to shape the side
of it differently depending on how the water flows.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
And then do you have people that generally come to
you and say, do narcissists come to you and say,
I think I'm a narcisist I need help? Or is
it difficult for them to even recognize that something is
wrong with them?

Speaker 1 (24:16):
The vast majority don't identify. I've had clients. I've had
clients who've done that, and it actually was really lovely
work with them. To do you work with the clients.
When I say lovely, no, I mean definitely somebody I
wanted to be my friend. But it meant that we
could almost push the accelerator a little bit. I wasn't
walking on eggshells. I could really push back on them
and they're like, yeah, you're right, and we could go

(24:38):
toe to toe. Most narcissistic clients come into therapy because
either life isn't going the way they want, a relationship
has been disrupted, they have another mental health condition that's
really causing them issues depression, anxiety, substance use, that kind
of thing, or they've publicly done something that's like they've
been in a scandal. So it's almost what I call

(24:59):
pr therapy. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
Yeah, And then is a narcissist able to heal themselves
or are you able to treat a narcist to take
away or reduce those qualities in them.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
They'd have to be motivated, and that's half the problem.
If you don't think there's something wrong with you, where's
the motivation?

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Right?

Speaker 1 (25:19):
In many cases, these are people who almost at a
delusional level, a delusional grandiosity, believe that. In fact, research
shows that narcissistic people actually view themselves as being very empathic.
They have an incredible distortion like it's a they like,
I'm a nice person. I'm a really empathic person. So
they're coming from this distorted space, and if the person

(25:41):
they're not being empathic too were to point it out
to them, they would likely shift the blame onto them,
gaslight them, all that other stuff, so that that very skewed.
They lack what's called self reflective capacity. Narcissistic people kind
of don't understand how they affect other people. They don't
understand the consequences of their actions, and they're very disms missive.
It's almost as though I feel everything and they don't

(26:03):
take it's a lack of empathy. I don't account for
it happening in anybody else, So there's often not that motivation.
Some of these other things can motivate them. Someone saying
we're done, this marriage is done, and the person wants
to remain married. They may rally a little bit. But
to your point, I don't think a narcissist could do
this themselves personally, I don't. I think it's too deep.

(26:23):
If there's traumatic origins to the narcissism, I'm always a
little bit more optimistic about treatment because you can use
trauma informed therapies. There's models of therapy you can use
that can actually address what's going on for that client.
Those grandiose, overindulged ones, they just don't have the humility
typically to do the work. They might see that they're
kind of blowing up their lives, but they still tend

(26:45):
to blame the world for all of that and not
take accountability. And even after therapy, let's say, and it
takes a long time to do this kind of therapeutic work.
Every day, every encounter, every email, every text message, is
it's mindfulness? Am I listening to them? Am I being nice?
Am I? Am I regulated? They're not going to do that.

(27:07):
And the first time there's a stress in their life.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's back to this regulation and how common would you
say it is?

Speaker 4 (27:13):
Like, is there research that's been done that one in
x amount of people have narcissistic qualities or have this personality?
Because you hear about it so much now I feel
like it's something talked about so much.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
What's the actual stats do you go of?

Speaker 1 (27:26):
So when we talk about again, the Holy Show is
trying not to bring up that issue of that narcissistic
personality disorder. Obviously, when people do research, they have to
use all kinds of scales and measurements, and usually they're
diagnostic measurements. The tricky bit with narcissistic personality disorder is
a lot of people don't get diagnosed with it even
if they have it, because either a they don't go
to therapy, and even if they go to therapy, it's

(27:48):
a sort of stigmatized diagnosis. Insurance companies won't reimburse on
the diagnosis. People don't want to put it in a
record somewhere that could sort of harm the client. The
client gets agitated. A lot of therapists find the workarounds,
They find all the neighborhood diagnoses and toss that in
so that they have something to document. So I mean,
to be honest with you, it just doesn't get documented
and researcher to get documented because it's not usually a

(28:11):
clinical setting.

Speaker 4 (28:12):
And in the.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Research, I mean, I've seen rates depending on the study,
anywhere from one to six percent, not a lot. Now,
the difficult part is what if you study narcissism and
the population as a whole, So sort of like the
I don't know if Cault urban myth or the alligator
and the sewer kind of number as I put it.
Some folks have estimated that that number of enough narcissism

(28:34):
to cause harm to other people in relationships level probably
twenty percent, one in five. So using that as a calculation,
if you know five people, statistically speaking, one of them's
probably got some enough narcissistic personality stuff that you would
notice it.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
And I feel with Narsens and whenever spoken about it's
generally about the victim that has been exposed to someone
like that.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
That's you know, it's cause harm in their life.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
But how does someone help a narcissistic personality, like how
do they integrate into society? How do they live within society?
How do they create relationships? Like there has to be
some sort of way for them to live amongst everyone.
Otherwise they just completely get isolated and arcissistic people.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, they're not only living amongst us. They're running the show.
They're running the countries, they're running the states, they're running
the companies, they're running the media, they're running everything. This
is their world. We're just living in it, right. I
actually think they're doing just fine. Oh oh I could
use a little narcissism probably help me. I've done research
shows that they're better at dating, they're more likely to

(29:40):
get people to marry them. They're doing fine. Oh now
they may be like, oh, well it's me they're just
ruining everyone else's lives. Wow, there's a lot of that.
I mean it's very imbalanced. No, no, no, the narcissistic personality.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Is actually fine inside.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Like, no, they're not fine inside. They're a mess inside, dark,
de insecure, dark, k eyed to the soul, miserable. But
the compensatory mechanisms. I'm going to work harder, I'm going
to be better. I'm going to be the very best
to the world. It looks like they're doing great, So
what does that do person It's like, well, they're so
successful I want to be in a relationship with them.

(30:16):
I want to work with them. They're so smart. I
have known people to say they want to work with
someone else, like, please don't do this. This is really
a terrible person. No, no, no, they're so successful. I
said you, this will destroy it. A year later they'll
say if I listened to you, and I don't know
what to tell people. I'm thinking you will not be
the magic person who changes them. So they're doing fine

(30:37):
in the sense of how they function in society. What internally, No,
not doing well, no self reflective capacity, none of the
humility that one needs to say, you know, maybe I
don't need to be this person I'm hurting people.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Not that.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
So I would say the world is actually very designed
for narcissism because we live in a very hierarchically structured world.

Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, is there a possibility for this personality disordered to
be taken away from someone like can you have it
and then be cured from it?

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Or it's something which just remains with Okay, I'm.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Going to give you an example. Yeah, But the best
way I could explain it I only know about myself.
I can't come I could speculate what your personality is like,
I am agreeable, introverted, and conscientious. Yeah, that's my personality
high in all three makes sense. I work all the time, discipline,
great student, very warm, very nice, humble, modest blah blah
blah doesn't sound I'm humble and mind I'm humble and modest.

(31:33):
I would never leave my house if I could. I
don't like parties. I don't like events. I don't like
getting together with people, none of that. I'm very I
prefer to stay home, watch TV, read a book, all
those things. Okay. If somebody said, can you change your
personality Romini? Can you be antagonistic and disagreeable? Can you
be the life of the party? And can you just

(31:53):
be undisciplined? The answer to that is a resounding now.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
So my personality can't change. Why do we would?

Speaker 2 (32:00):
And that's why you call it personality type. It's specific,
that's it.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
I mean I feel the same way whenever I've been
asked to, not asked, but whenever I get put into
situations where it demands a different version of me or
like a me to go out of character or out
of my comfort zone in that way, Like you said,
I generally am someone who's more introverted. When I go
into large crowds or large situations, for me, I would
like to find one person to talk to for the

(32:25):
whole night. But that pressure of trying to be outgoing
and be the life of the pasty or whatever you
think you should be. You're right, you can never keep
that up, like it feels so out of character.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Well, you can do it for a night, and then
you're exhausted. So if I have to have a social event,
I'll fall asleep. Yeah I can't. I'll go home and
follow asleep. Right. Yeah, extroverted daughter, if she has to
spend a day not having had contact with people, she'll
become sad and exhausted.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
Yeah wow, okay, So yeah, that's why you have to
shift your mindset of it's not a disorder or a
well yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
A personality style. And again, most cases it doesn't get diagnosed.
And I'm sure a lot of folks out there who
are narcissistic, a lot of them might have NPD, but
they're never going to see the clinician to get diagnosed.
That's not a determination that can really be made outside
of that setting. So when we focus on it as
a personality style. My personality can't change, yours can't, so
why would they?

Speaker 4 (33:23):
And so is there different ways that it shows up,
whether it's in So if someone was to try and
identify a narcisistic personality in work, in a relationship, would
they be similar traits going across all the way? So
if you were in a relationship, or let's say, for
all my friends who are starting who are going on
dates at the moment, many of my friends are going
on like dating apps and they're meeting people in the

(33:45):
first few dates. How what kind of questions should people
be asking? What kind of triggers should they be looking
for in those settings? Is it something that within a
month or so you can really if you're trying to
be more aware, can you ask them the right of
questions or put them in situations too to find that out.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
I think it's less about the questions and more about
the presence. So I would watch how they manage frustration
they don't get the table they want at the restaurant.
How do they talk to the bartender, How do they
talk to a server who may not do exactly what
they want? How do they talk about other people? Do
they listen to you when you speak, do they get

(34:25):
what if they have a bad date work? How do
they respond to that? Are they able to be present
when you're sharing something or do you feel any sense
of contempt or dismissiveness or minimization. That's it's processed up.
They're really because there's very few questions you can ask
them because they can always change. There their shape shifters
and chameleons, and they're able to very much. They know
what looks right. So watching how they react, watching how

(34:48):
they respond, watching their presence, that's how you're going to
see it.

Speaker 4 (34:51):
And when you say they're generally in, are they people
who are generally liked by people because of these qualities?
Like you said, they're charismatic, they end up being someone
that actually attracts people because of those qualities.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
The grandiose narcissists ys. The grandiose narcissists are often very
well like, they're extroverted, but they and they can be difficult.
So what you'll often see is that the people who
are in the grandiose narcissist sphere that are valid or
valued by them, like I said, might have higher status,
similar status, they're useful to them. Whatever. Those people will
be treated well. And it's why sometimes in life people

(35:25):
will say I met this person so cool and other
people no, no, And we also have this very different assessment.
First thing I'd want to know is what your status
relative to this person relative to that person with other
a different opinion. And my guess is either you're a
new person in the narcisses if you like them, you're
a new person in their life. You have something they need,

(35:45):
You have higher status, so they're doing a different dance
for you than they are for someone who works for them.
I've had this happen over and over again, where I've
had the opportunity and my other work to see a
narcissistic person how they're interacting with their staff. Now they
might let's say they're perceiving me as a useful person
at the time, how they're interacting with me, and the minute,
the minute I see the mistreat a staff person, it's over.

(36:07):
I'm like, I'm not working with this person, not doing it.

Speaker 4 (36:12):
And what does someone who is in a relationship with
a narcissist, what does that love look like like?

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Are they capable of love?

Speaker 4 (36:21):
Is a narcissist capable of the concept of love and
caring for someone.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
That's a philosophical question, right, So what's love? R?

Speaker 4 (36:29):
What is love?

Speaker 1 (36:29):
What is love?

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (36:30):
I think that, you know, beyond the philosophy, I think
we could think about if we take love and we
stretch it to a place of let's just stay in
even in the intimate relational space first intimacy, and I
think that from intimacy even applies to friendships. Deep sustaining mutual, reciprocal, consistent, available,

(36:51):
present depth depth with someone, and the and the desire
for that depth with someone. To me, that's part of the.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Measure of love, respect, definite compassion, all of whether it's.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, right, they're not capable of that. But many people
are in narcissistic relationships. But the narcissistic person says I
love you, yeah, and the person will say, no, you don't,
This isn't love. And I'll be like, whoa, whoa they said,
they narcissist said they love you. Your problem is and I'm
going to do a twist on bell hooks here. They

(37:24):
are that you guys are using different definitions. You can't
I love you. They think they love you. The problem
you don't have a shared definition, right, And so that's
something people don't do. I always wish there was an
informed consent for him. At the beginning of a relationship.
You both throw a piece of paper down and say,
what do you use your definition of love? Like, yeah, no,

(37:44):
I'm not feeling that this does not Item two on
the contract is not working for me. But it was
real nice to meet you. We don't do that. And
I think that people get caught up in the words
I love you. They say it I love you to me,
I'm like, okay, and that's not interesting. I don't care
if they said I love you, What does that signified
to them?

Speaker 4 (38:01):
Have you asked people that when they've come into your clinics.
Have you seen generally when you've seen narcisstic personality, do
they have similar definitions of what they see as love.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
It's actually a cut question. It's hard for them to answer.
They'll often say like, you know, yeah, I love them
like I don't. I want to spend time, I spend
money on them, I buy them gifts. So it's a
very superficial. When you really cut to the court, like
I bought to a Chanel bag, they'll think.

Speaker 4 (38:22):
They're seeing their value in that relationship versus seeing what
they're giving to it.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
And it's and not seeing it from a place of
I love that we have shared interests.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
This is what I give.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
I feel safe with this person. They feel safe. They
then could not. It's very it feels transactional, it feels statusy,
lots of roles. Well, I mean we're married and they're
the mother of my kids, or whatever it may be.
It's it doesn't it doesn't track to these deeper things.
But like I said, they say I love you, they

(38:56):
may whatever that measurement is to them. They may very
well feel like, I like looking at your attractive to me,
or you're smart, or you have a great job, or
you have a lot of money. That's there, I love
you right and or that you're And then I recall
working with more than a few narcissistic folks who felt

(39:16):
like they would find partners who are very materialistic and
the entire relationship was a transaction. Right, I'm going to
buy you this gift, I'm going to take you on
this vacation. I'm going to take whatever it is. And
so back to them was love if the other person's
on board, maybe.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
And then so would a narcissist and a narcissist together.
Would that be complete disaster or would that actually work
because they both would end up having similar surface level relationships,
Like would it make more sense for narcissists to be
together than to be with other people who can't quite
relate to them and understand them.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Do we need to create narcissists dating apps?

Speaker 1 (39:56):
That's a good idea. There you go, that's your business.
You enjoyed, do that, I'll be your consultant. Effect they
are when narcissists isn't in a relationship with the narcis
happens all the time, by the way. It can be
very volatile. It can be very betrayal Leyden. You hope
to god they don't have kids because no one's going
to be minding the story kind of thing. Right, Okay,

(40:18):
so you're right that given the superficial focus, it can work.

Speaker 5 (40:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
It's basically two people looking into their own separate mirrors
and you know, pretty content. And those relationships are often
driven by things like status. You know that both people
are deriving a status from the other. They may have
similar superficial interests, so that that keeps it going, so
that they can keep it going for a while. But
someone's going to betray.

Speaker 4 (40:43):
Someone, right, So it's almost like it's a personality type
that's incapable of creating meaningful exchanges, like meaningful, genuine relationships.
Where would they turn to people if they have something
that's upset them and hurt them? Would they would they

(41:04):
know how to? Like, how does a narcist express their emotion?

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Not in a good way, It's usually going to be overtrage, yelling, screaming, irritability,
or it's going to be passive aggression.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
It almost feels like it's like an adult tantrum, like
whenever I talk, whenever I think about it, even in
my own personality, if I have I don't really have
outbursts like that, but even if I have emotions that
get released a bit too fast, I'm like, it feels
like I've seen this in lots of people where we
have these adult tantrums, where it's where it's again what
you said, manipulative, a little bit unreasonable, like there's no

(41:38):
reason to it. It becomes almost like a small think
and become so big and there is no changing their minds.
They believe that they are right, They believe that they
have every right to feel this way. The other thing
that comes to mind is with people who are If
there are people listening and watching and thinking, oh my goodness,
my partner might just be a narcissist, what happens stay

(42:00):
with them? How does someone then deal with that I've
been with this person for ten years. I'm sure, like
you said, you've seen so many people who have been
with partners for years and years.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
What happens?

Speaker 4 (42:10):
Does the other person ever feel joy and happiness within
the relationship or is it something that we're always struggling Listen.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
It's so tricky because when you think about long term
intimate relationships, if it's a newer relationship, there's not a
lot of skin in the game. They're not living together,
they don't have children together, they're not married or anything
like that. Obviously, disengaging from something is, if I say,
easier in quotes, because psychologically it's not easy, right, the

(42:39):
deeper in someone is and you have other shared stuff, yeah, house,
home and children and all that stuff, money, it becomes harder.
But then there's other things afoot Because in a narcissistic relationship,
one would say it's so bad, why wouldn't everyone go? Well,
they don't. In fact, a lot of people. Don't go
take the practical out for a minute, right, There's a

(43:01):
couple of other variables at play. There's a lot of hope.
I hope, I hope they'll change, right, change, and I
will be the one change? You know, you won't be.
No one is going to be, So you take that
out of the picture. But that's hard to let go of.
But then there's a phenomenon called trauma bonding. Yes, And
with trauma bonding, what we see is that it is
a situation where the good days and the bad days

(43:24):
going back and forth between. That creates this very difficult
to detach from bond and it's kept in place because
the person, the non narcissistic person as it were, will
make justifications and they'll make nationalizations and they'll make excuses,
and that almost starts to become a reality. And then
on top of that, that trauma bonded person will blame themselves.

(43:46):
They'll doubt them, doubt themselves. And since they're already being
gaslighted and doubted and blamed, it all fits. So now
this person feels it maybe this is my fault and
they're really busy and they told me that, and I
actually haven't been doing X, Y or Z as much, right,
and we had a good time last weekend, and we
do have a vacation planned and look at our pictures

(44:07):
on the laws and all of that, right, and then
it gets bad again, and then it's bad again, and
if it's bad for enough days, maybe by the third
or fourth or fifth week of bad, like, okay, this
isn't healthy. I got to go rationalize, rationalized, self blame,
self blame, they're cracking through. Then there's a good day.
And that trauma bonded stuff can often have very ancient origins,
where for the child who might have a negating or parent,

(44:31):
or they're insecurely attached to the parent, that child had
to make sense of that. They don't have a choice.
You can't say I don't like this mom, I'm gonna
go get another mom.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Right.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
So what happens then is that that child does blame
themselves so they can feel because as they blame themselves
and there's a path forward to attachment. The other option
is that that is absolutely cataclysmic. So that trauma bonded
cycle keeps people always questioning, wondering, and they'll think, what
if I leave and they meet someone else? What if
I leave and they I was wrong. And as a therapist,

(45:02):
I have to say when I have clients who have
been in trauma bonded relationships, I've said to them, can
you explain to me a little bit so I understand
what do you love about them? And even more so,
what do you like about them? When the client and
when a client is trauma bonded, the way they answer
that question is do you know doc, I don't know,

(45:23):
Like I can't put it into words. It's like it's
like it's like.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
This magical like I have a soul connection, like we're
souls and we're like old souls and we're just connected,
and like I don't know, I can't put it in words.

Speaker 4 (45:37):
It's like yeah, where it's almost like I know that
I have this attachment to this person that I can't
go off, but I don't quite know.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
What it is that I love about them or like
about it.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Because it is a trauma bonded situation, it's actually a
very problematic person. Now, when a person's in a healthy
relationship and you say tell me you love like about me,
they'll give you very clear into case like this is
a kind person. I feel safe with this person. I
enjoy my time I spend with them. I feel respected.
They really uplift me. Okay, got it. Like it's very

(46:14):
very clear, very healthy. Not only and or they'll say
they're just I love I love hearing about their work
whatever it is. You see, there's a reciprocal awareness. The
person feels safe, they feel connected in a trauma bonded relationship.
It cannot be articulated, but people will sometimes I feel
the sense of chemistry. Chemistry is the most dangerous word
in a relationship. When I hear chemistry, I'm like, no, no, no,

(46:36):
don't tell me if you're a chemistry because it's almost
a like it's.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Like an explosion.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, it's an explosion, but it's also like a chemical excuse, right,
Like we have chemistry. That's why I'm sticking it out.
It's so weird to find this, I said, thank goodness,
it's rare. This is not good for you. So all
of that makes it very difficult for people to leave.
But many people do leave. And you know what, some
the vast majority who people who leave once they get

(47:01):
over the initial hump of and they don't always leave.
They're often left. Keep in mind the narcissistic person might
find new supply and so in that initial period, if
a person is left, they'll experience grief. They'll often feel like,
oh my gosh, I still feel so tied to this person.
The trauma bond may not have it's the therapy and

(47:22):
worked like that becomes eroding that trauma bond.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Right.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
If a person leaves a narcissistic person, though, depending how
severe the narcissism is, there can be what we call
post separation abuse, stalking and harassment. It can be tricky
business and some people will say, oh, this is hard.
Doesn't always happen, But in a narcissistic relationship cycle, it's
not unusual for there to be something called hoovering, sucking

(47:45):
people back in, and that then becomes the game of people.
It's the fantasy, right of the child who finally gets
noticed by the parent like, ah, they came back for me.
Isn't that the ultimate attachment fantasy? They came back from me?
And you're like, here we go round two?

Speaker 2 (48:01):
And so is that the same cycle that people?

Speaker 4 (48:03):
Because I always think when it comes to parents, I
think we will have this image of how how could
a parent not love their child? Right, like you have
this in people's minds and especially in mine. I come
from a like I'm blessed to have a mom and
a dad who I have felt the love of, so
in my mind, I always think, and I know there
are so many horror stories, but if it's a narcissistic

(48:25):
parent and a child, Let's say a child is listening
to this who has had a parent who they felt
neglected by?

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Is that the normal?

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Is that the key sign of a narcissistic parent, Like
do you generally as a child and not feeling neglected.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Not just neglected, you feel invalidated. There's a difference. You
feel you are only going to be loved if you're
serving a function for the parent, and that function might
be not being around, not being a source of not
being inconvenient that the child is always trying to win
the parent over, gain their approof gain their validation. It

(49:02):
is a it is an exhausting, painful.

Speaker 4 (49:04):
Way, and I guess that love is again it's the definition,
right like for the for the parent who is a
narcissist to their child, that is their definition of loving
their child will be different to what the child's definition
of love from their parents.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Child does not can have a definition of all. Child
is all about survival. Child's about survival, I mean child.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
But even when you get to an adult, Let's say
I got to this age and I realized that I
had a traumatic relationship let's say with my mum or
my dad, and I grow up to this age and
I recognize when.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
I hear this, and I'm like, oh, this, this is
actually what it was.

Speaker 4 (49:41):
But in in their mind should they believe that this
their definition? The parent's definition of love was just very
different to what they required as a as a child.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
No, that's a parenting fit, right is right? That's a
that's not it's not about their parents had a different
action of love. Parent didn't do the crucial job of parenting.
Take love out of it. Really, they just did not
do what a parent needed to do, which was to
have regard for their child. Notice their child, be present
with their child, validate their child, regulate their own emotions,

(50:15):
and put primacy on their child. Never make a child
a repository of their needs. Listen to their child's needs,
encourage their child's emotional expression, create a safe space for
that emotional expression. Most kids, because they.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Don't have to put people first without it being for
their benefit.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Correct, the child becomes a source of narcissistic supply, either
the parent derived status from them or they the child.
They know the child will do things for them, but
by in large, the narcissistic parent just doesn't like being
inconvenienced by their child. Right.

Speaker 4 (50:46):
And so for anybody that ends up listening to this
and they get to the end of this and they
in their mind think, you know what I feel like
I am. Let's say they're not a narcist. But there
are all these qualities I would say are red signs
of or like things that it's very easy for us
to become depending on the company that we're surrounded by.
You could, like you said, if you have parents that

(51:08):
are constantly telling you you're more special, friends telling you
you are more special, especially when it comes to beauty
in this world, because you're constantly like if you are
physically attractive, it is like you will have people telling
you on the street, You'll have your parents telling you
being an Indian child, if you are fair, if you
are whatever, like that specialness that you are told from

(51:31):
a young age.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
I'd say, even more.

Speaker 4 (51:32):
So than being smart, beauty is probably the area in
our world which is focused on the most and so
for anybody on a daily basis, who whichever one of these,
whether it's self importance, entitlement, being sometimes manipulative with your
empathy to try and gain things from people, because we
live in a world where sometimes depending on the work

(51:53):
you're in or whatever, you end up being nicer to
people because you can gain from them on a daily basis.
If someone's journaling, if someone is trying to better themselves,
what would be the type, Like I guess it would
just be a lot of self reflection. But would you
recommend that people, even if they're not diagnosed as narcissists,
to be reflecting on these parts of their lives and
what kind of questions should they.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Be asking themselves?

Speaker 4 (52:15):
And and how would they then, you know, change that
dynamic in those areas.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
If a narcissistic person is doing that level of self reflection,
I'm not convinced that they're all that much, do you
know what I'm saying? That kind of depth work on
their own spontaneously? Probably not.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
But I imagine even if you have small amounts of this,
if you get fed it too much throughout your.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Life, I understand what you're saying it's like the making
of a monster prevention. Yes, if we think about how
they should be raising children, educating children, is that it's
not just empathy that's important. It's self awareness. It's self regulation, right,

(52:56):
It's that.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
What do you mean my self regulation?

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Regulation is I'm having a I'm really angry right now.
I need to figure out a healthy way to manage
that emotion. And that might mean I think I need
to take a walk. Can I have some time I'm
going to cry this one out to do? Yeah, you
know that kind of thing. I need a minute. That
self regulation, lack of self regulation is just screaming and
yelling and expecting to get your way right or sullenly

(53:21):
sulking off and not communicating your feelings right. So you know, again,
the core problem with narcissism is that lack of self
reflective capacity. But you're saying if somebody may not be narcissistic,
but they've been sort of indoctrinated into this sort of
you're using this great example of like in the Indian community,
of like certain qualities may be overvalued, attractiveness, fair skinnedness.

(53:44):
You grow up with that, right, academic academic achievement. So
you have a couple of things happening there. There's that
temperament again coming up, right. It's also what other balances
were there. The child could have heard you're so pretty,
you're so pretty, so pretty, but also might have heard
you're also many other wonderful things. You're so kind to

(54:07):
your sister, you're such a kind, good person. The child
still has to do chores. The child can't just ask
and do whatever they want without there being some form
of consequence if they misbehave right, So that overvaluation on
one thing, and I call it sort of that one
trick pony treatment of a child. See this will also
with quite a bit with academic skills, like they're doing

(54:28):
so well, especially in their science classes, and they're going
to go to a top university. Look look, look, look
we have to. But if that child's getting with everything else,
or even into adulthood, they can throw tantrums, they can
be rude, they can be awful, But here, doctor, that's
that's a problem. But if that person also has a
balance against that, then that's obviously going to be very

(54:50):
very protective. So it's the if a person is wondering,
am I being empathic? Am I being self aware. We
all should be doing Yes, all of us should be
doing that. Like as I communicate with this person, let
me think about this, or let me be aware that
I didn't have a great day today, and they let
the person know. Can we have this conversation tomorrow. I

(55:12):
know I'm not at my best today. Or this is
learned to articulate our needs somebody who is help, who
might even be on the fringe that they've been told
but a little bit too special or too wonderful, or
that by doing these sorts of check ins with oneself,
you can catch yourself. That's a lot of what mindfulness is.
The words I'm about to say, how will these land?

(55:35):
We may be telling someone something very uncomfortable that doesn't
feel good, but there's a way to communicate that, no
matter what it is to say, Okay, I need to
give you feedback. I'd like us to take a minute,
come in the room, you know, and you give them feedback.
It may not be very nice feedback, but there's a
way to do it, to check in with someone to
create safety. Right. Yes, that's all mindful checking in, and

(55:58):
a lot of us are too busy and on our
own quests to do whatever it is we're doing or whatever,
So it gets complicated in that chronic checking back in.
I just don't think you're going to get a narcissistic
person there. I just don't.

Speaker 4 (56:11):
Yeah, And I think with even with all these qualities
we're talking about, even with entitlement, like I always think
about whenever I go into a situation or you know,
I think about where certain areas are triggered in me,
Like when I go into a specific situation, where do
I find my ego rising or my entitlement kicking in
what kind of situations am I bringing those things out?

(56:34):
Or what situations are bringing that out in me? And
then when I track back to thinking about those situations
and then tracking it back.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
To where it could have rooted from, I found that really.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
Helped me because there will be certain situation and I realized, yeah,
maybe it was because give an example, I was told
a lot because my eyes are a different color from
in being a brown woman with like colored eyes, something
I was commented on for like my whole life. And
it was interesting because there's a level of even if
I don't believe even when I look at other people,
I see another colored eye, which I find more attractive

(57:07):
or I love deep black or brown eyes because I've
been told that for such a long time. It's almost
like it gets programmed into you to believe that about
yourself and then about other people. And so I found
that all the areas that I find I think or
people have told me I am better then because of
or that I have a reason to be entitled because

(57:30):
of That's how we translate it into our body.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Ah, that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
I've now realized that I have to find those places
in my life, all the situations that are bringing that
out in me and noticing them so then I can
work on them.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
It's a great point. Again, but to be able to
do that depth work requires a tremendous amount of mental health.
You know. I would always give to my students when
I was a professor that we had two parking lots,
multiple parkingers, but one for the faculty and several for
the students. The students' parking lots were further out. Faculty
parking lot was closer in. I truly believe in horizontal
organization and equity. It matters a lot to me. And

(58:04):
then I have to say, how would I feel about that?
Hav'm not bargain, right, yeah, right, And I think like
I got a PhD, I spent ten years in school,
I have to work here. But really, and I really
love your analysis of like to dig deep in what
does that mean? Like do I feel like you know?

(58:26):
Do I feel like something? And then I really would
go deeper in that, like, Okay, what if these people
paid me a ton more money to do this job?
They said, but you have to park in this bargeou
a mile away. I'm like, you could park me five
miles away if you pay me that much. So it's
all these these sliders right in the sense of academic
jobs don't pay well, and so you're thinking, like you're
already disrespecting me in so many ways, like please don't

(58:47):
take my parking style way right, And so it forces
you into what are the things like we all do
have certain entitlements and privileges that we carry that if
we feel those are being taken away, what.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
Does that what does it take away from What does it.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Take away from me? What is that symbolic of how
am I feeling that? What is it taking me back to?
And that can be very very potent, that sort of
depth work which we do for example, in a trauma
client where you feeling this in your body. With a
very healthy individual, where I'd say they'm in therapy this
really you had a strong reaction to this, what's happening,
And they'll say it blah blah blah, brought up this.

(59:24):
When you bring that up with a narcissistic client, you
kind of go kind of nowhere fast. Sometimes with a Again,
I've had a handful of clients who are able to
go deeper in and they see it and they get it,
but it's a heavier lift and there's certainly not something
they're going to do spontaneously.

Speaker 4 (59:40):
Let's say a narcis isn't capable of this. But I
think for people who may notice certain of certain aspects
of these qualities in their life, it's something where like
you said, it can build up and they should be
trying to We should all be trying to reduce these
qualities within ourselves wherever we end up seeing them and
doing that work on a daily basis. It's so important

(01:00:01):
because you just never know where it's accumulating and how
fast it's accumulating within you To then create this type
of person or personality that you end up with and
you can't reverse after you can't reverse.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
I mean, I think that the challenge is is that
you know, personality is pretty much gelled and in place
by the mid twenties, right you are. Then environment will
continue to shape that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
So, a person has a tremendous amount of adversity, you
can almost look at it. Think of it as like
a marble rolling down something. It might go this direction,
it might go di direction, depending on the texture of
the thing that it's rolling down.

Speaker 5 (01:00:36):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
A person with one kind of let's say, an agreeable
personality that's given those adversities, they may actually dip into
a very deep well of resilience meaning purpose, existential stuff,
and it might even toughen them up. They might strengthen
their focus. Somebody who has more of this narcissistic style
temperament call it what you will, and they face those adversities,

(01:00:57):
it is there going to start to erode on, braid,
fall apart, rage at the world and the most extreme places,
perhaps even engage in violence. Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
And it's so interesting because I feel like everything, whether
it's a narcissist or not, everything seems system from insecurities,
like the value that you end up having in other
people's lives, the value that you find in the world
of yourself, and I think or whether it's a narcissistic
person or all the other personality types, we all thrive

(01:01:28):
off this desire of wanting to be of value, and
how we find that is through the way that we
present ourselves in our personality. I feel like narcissists the word.
The term has been obviously more common now, but would
you say, was it called something else before? How is
it suddenly become something that everybody knows about, talks about.

(01:01:50):
And it feels like it's just a new thing that's developed,
But it's obviously not.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
It's a new word in the grand history of that
around probably since the late eighteen hundreds, early in nineteen hundred.
So remember the field of psychology still in this relative infancy,
and I you know, there's always been disagreement about psychoanalytic theorists,
the Freuds and Auto Ranks and all of that. They
were the ones who wrote about it first, always a

(01:02:14):
lot of disagreement about it. And before that, I mean,
if you really wanted to play the clock, all the
way back there were people who talk about things like
moral insanity. So these are people who are intellectually on point,
but there was a moral depravity to them that was
probably a hint towards narcissism. If we roll the clock
all the way back to ancient physicians like Galen, they

(01:02:35):
talk about the humors and some of the stuff that
those early Greek Roman sort of physicians, as you will,
they were talking about humors and they were talking about
these different personality styles that would present narcissisms. Always agree
has always existed in beings. We're a hominid species and
our close close cousins are primates, and these are hierarchically

(01:02:58):
organized species. So I think that when we think about
things like how human beings have come through time, like
in terms of how our social systems worked and were organized,
how the industrial revolutions have affected how we exist with
each other, life expectancies, patriarchies, the role of marriage, all

(01:03:20):
of those things would have played a role in that
there've always been terrible people. Open up a history book,
exactly what do you think the history books are about
the narcissist? The regular folks, which is out there plowing
the fields and doing the thing and milking the cows.
But the narcissists were the ones invading and pillaging and
making history. That's who we still learn about. Their terrible people.
And so those historical figures lacked empathy. And we're entitled,

(01:03:43):
and we're grandiose and believed all this other stuff, and
so they do. They do stick in. They stick in
the history books, they stick in our minds. It's always
been there. But when we think about the devalued voice,
For example, someone who had more power in a relationship
might have domineered someone Being able to physically abuse the
spouse was legal until relatively recent and it still is

(01:04:05):
in many parts.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
So it just wasn't seen as being a negative.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
It wasn't being seen as being a thing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:10):
Yeah, it's wild to me that they don't assess these
personalities before world leaders are, like the assessment that goes
that people have to go through to become a leader
or someone who to become someone who is leading other
people or looking after them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
It really surprised me after hearing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
What you said that it's that's not part of the
training or part of the Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Not at all, not at all. In fact leadership, I
would say the US government, look, I mean heavily, we
have a house. It's very stacked towards narcissism who would
put themselves through that, Like you must really want to be,
like you know, of a certain powerful role and endure
all that one endures in that role, Like I think

(01:04:55):
a normal person like, no, thank you, I don't want that.
And so the counter argument to what you're saying, though,
some people would say, I wouldn't necessarily hold to this,
but would say, when it comes time to hit the
switch on having a war, yeah, you really want someone
who's going to be thinking about empathy and children, like
you want someone who's going to actually do something to

(01:05:15):
safeguard a sovereign state. Right, So some people would say, okay,
I almost think that the perfect way to do leadership
would be to have not a one person, but.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Multiple people mutiple.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Have your agreeable person in there, have your narcissistic person
in there, and try to work towards consensus. And I
think that's why we have cabinets and and all of that,
But unfortunately all of them are it's a lot of
narcissisms all the way around. They're not bringing the agreeable
people kind of get selected out because almost like this
is not for me. I want to spend time with

(01:05:47):
the people I care about. I want a time on
that family like this, This whole power trip thing isn't
my thing, right and so, But empathic leadership, there's a
lot of really interesting work being written about it, and
there are good outcomes. This idea of pie you impath,
then you're not. You're not a hardcore. We're not going
to make money on you. It's not true. No, I
mean it's not true. A person could be empathic and

(01:06:08):
I have a very very solid sense of how financial
markets work and make some painful decisions in that position
and still be empathic and not be abusive and not
allow a culture of abuse to fester. But we just
often those folks, like I said, often self select out
some of the most empathic people I know. When it
came to academic leadership, they could have become deans and this,

(01:06:30):
and they're like, no, I love my lab I love
my students. I said, But what about the money, is like,
I have enough money, I'm going I don't need more.

Speaker 4 (01:06:38):
Yeah, we be amazing to pick teams and to pick
to really when they are hiring people. If personality in
that respect was actually taken into account to create more
of a balanced team yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
I mean I think what you see rather there is
that there are assessments they use in the workplace. Because
I've worked with clients on this and it's a little
bit too much of a superficial assessment. If you been
the problems, if you want too deep with the assessment instruments,
you'd have lawsuits flying all over the place, right. You
know what I'm saying that girl, if I had those
assessment instruments, I'd be like no, no, no, no, no,

(01:07:11):
no no no, because you would have you would literally
get people saying that this is biased, this is your
you know, you pick up somebody with you and.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
Someone who come out so hard to assess it really is.
Thank you, thank you so much for all of the information.
I feel like it's been so so informative, so useful
for people on a daily basis to be able to
figure out the.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
People that they are living around.

Speaker 4 (01:07:37):
I feel like we just don't we assess people in
such a superficial way.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
We see people, we think about them based on what
they look like, but their job is like the questions
that we ask don't tend to be as thoughtful until
we get to a place of knowing them. So deeply,
and I think this helps others understand a different aspect
to the people that they are around.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
A simple question, and I tell people this, I say,
pay attention to how you feel while you're with someone,
and pay attention how you feel after you're not with them.
By that, I mean you meet someone, can be someone new,
and you might in the conversation, I am so enjoying
this conversation, thinking to yourself subjectively, and then afterwards you're like,

(01:08:18):
I feel I feel bigger, I feel stronger. Right, I
have to say people say, well, no, narcissisty people are
so charming and charismatic. You got to get away from
the fluff. It's not someone saying.

Speaker 5 (01:08:30):
You're so cool, you're so interesting, No, it's that person
where you're getting into this place of there's a back
and forth of a banter about something that you talk
about vulnerabilities and good things and bad things, and you might.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Find a shared affinity about X, Y and Z. Pay
attention to that. How you go through the world after
that conversation. I would guess in eight times out of ten,
some very very good narcissistic people out there gonna be
very charming, But eight times out of ten him. If
you were to pay attention to that, you would say like, Okay,
I knew it felt good. I can I can say honestly,
the rare times my introverted ass goes to a party

(01:09:09):
is that when I pay very much attention to and
I remember recently spent a long time since I've been
to one, because usually I either don't get invited to
people or she is not good, She's just in the
corner and talks to one person like you. But I
I remember going to a party some time ago. It's
like Mipe was December, and there was many several people,
obviously many people. There was a party, and I got

(01:09:31):
into a conversation with this one guy. He was the loveliest,
loveliest person. And when we got together after the life
is busy. He's a busy man, busy guy. But we
had such a nice time, and it'll always stick in
my mind. There are other people I talked with, No
I didn't feel it. I was like, can you tell
me where the bathroom is? I'm sure everyone in Los

(01:09:51):
Angeles must think I'd a urinary tract infecton, so I'm
always like, I got to do the bathroom. Can tell
me what the both. It's my way of getting out
of me too.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
I spent a love time about the in social situation
some time.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
She's gone to the bathroom tonight, so I hope no
one's tracking me. But it's a or I got to
go grab a bite or something like that. That feeling right,
and then you do feel it, and it's trusting that
sense of not that they're pumping me up. What I
liked about the person I enjoyed having a conversation with
was he's such an interesting life and was answering those

(01:10:22):
questions in such a humble manner. And then I think
it's also what do we value in a person? Got
to be honest with ourselves, Like if somebody really asked you,
what qualities do you value in someone else? I would
say humility matters a lot to be Empathy matters a
lot to me. We need to know that. I can't
imagine anyone ever saying the things I look for when

(01:10:43):
I meet someone new are entitlement, grandiosity, and arrogance top three.

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
No, that's nobody's top three.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
And if it is someone's top three, they're probably narcissistic.
So I hope they find it in another person.

Speaker 4 (01:10:57):
Yeah, so I love how self aware you are also
that you know how to set your boundaries, because I
think that's important. And I think, yeah, I know, but
you just knowing yourself enough to not put yourselves into
those situations, I don't know. Yeah, And a lot of
people would say, like to me, I've had people say,
you know, get out of your comfort zone or do
this or do that, And sometimes I wonder, you know,

(01:11:18):
from your experience outside of work and just as who
you are, how did you get to a point where
you became comfortable with just being who you are and
not thinking that you're hiding from something or trying to
stay away from something and not like just taking a
step outside of your comfort zone. Like what's the difference
between you staying in your comfort zone and not trying

(01:11:39):
things versus just knowing this is this is who I am,
and this is what makes me happy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
I had to get hurt enough time, did you?

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Yep?

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
You know, in many ways, it's been a devastating life.
And I'm a lot older than you, and so I
think there was a point where the broken hearts and
the broken psyche piled up too high for me and
it wasn't about comfort zone anymore. It was really about safety.
They must take care, I must, I must protect myself.

(01:12:08):
To me, comfort zone, you want to go to comfort zone,
bungee jump, jump out of a plane, scuba dive, like,
that's comfort zone to me. But that we have this really,
really good detector within us to know that harm is coming. Yeah,
And when people say get out of your comfort zone
as a way to be with that person, it's very

(01:12:28):
dangerous guidance.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Right in relationships.

Speaker 4 (01:12:32):
Yeah, and that's the last question I want to ask you.
That's what got you into this line of work.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Not my own experience, Believe it or not. It was
actually very academic for me. Initially. I was when I
was a university professor. I noticed that people with these
personalities were wreaking havoc in primary care healthcare situations, and
so that this is so interesting. Why doesn't anyone write
about this? Nobody had been writing about it, And so
I decided to write grants to an IH and do

(01:13:02):
research on this and write about it and think about it,
talk about it. And my own mentor said, Romedy, come on,
don't do personality work. It's going to you know, puts
you out sort of on this this sort of academic
gulag and I'm like, that's really seems interesting. And at
the same time, I was at a clinical practice and
I was seeing more and more clients where I was like,
maybe if I educate these people in these personality patterns,

(01:13:22):
it'll help them and these relationships are in And as
I was doing this work, doing this work, what was
becoming fascinating to me was the almost the denial I
had practiced, the pushing it down. I became so aware
of these patterns in my life and that to blow
up situations in my life, like to step away from

(01:13:43):
some of these harmful relationships, it was going to blow
up my life. And it was. It was defying every
childhood teaching, it was defying almost every societal teaching, and
it was. But it was Yet it took me doing
all the research, doing clinical practice, and only then did
I come to the inside of wait a minute, really, yeah,

(01:14:05):
if it wasn't my personal experience that brought me into this.
It's my personal experience though, that I think become the
strong tent poles that commit me to this work. And
so when people say no, no, no, this isn't a thing,
I'm like, no, no, no, this is a thing. Trust me
on this and it You know, your world gets smaller
when you go through this enough. And I have worked
with clients I myself over and over bad luck. Some

(01:14:29):
of it's just bad luck. You keep picking the wrong
black jack table in the casino, right, you know, it's
just bad luck. And and then part of it is
is beyond bad luck. It was maybe working through Maybe
this time it could be different, And so there's a
caution and there's a tentativeness. I always look like someone
who's trying to make sure the ice is thick enough
to stand on. That's my process, that my journey. I'm

(01:14:50):
good with it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:50):
How did you with any of the trauma that you've
been through in your life? Would you say that you
have been able to heal from it where you look
back at it and don't feel pain, or would you
say that trauma is something like the things that you've
been through. Have you healed from it? Is it something
you feel you can heal from fully? Or would you
say that it has you know, what were your mechanisms

(01:15:11):
of even getting to this point where you feel comfortable
enough to share and talk about it?

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
And right, I think healing is not the removal of
the pain. I think healing is the colocation and protection
of the pain. Right, So this idea that you know again,
it's that that's sort of the internal eternals on China's
spotless mind, right, there is no spotless mind. And so
it's to understand that those are the vulnerabilities and that

(01:15:38):
you can draw your arms around those within yourself that
they're not And I think the way I know I've healed,
I don't view them as much as much. I still
sometimes have my moments as points of damage, you know,
but rather that you know, unfortunate painful experiences, bad log
call it what you will, karma. I think that when
we use this word healing, it's never it's never an outcome.

(01:16:02):
It's always an ongoing process, and it's the self compassion
and the self forgiveness that comes from I had a
strong reaction to this day. I need to go and
lie down. There was a time and I'd say, no,
now you're gonna I'm gonna punish you by you work
harder now, right, And so now I was like, no,
it's time to call this day done. I had a
day like that recently, and I said, this day is done. Yeah,

(01:16:25):
you know, there's been too much hurt in this day,
and so I think that that to me the process
of healing. When I work with survivors of narcissistic relationships
on healing, it's that capacity to care for yourself and
not continually almost harm yourself because that's the only narrative
we sort of know, but we do. We care it

(01:16:45):
in our bodies. It doesn't go away. It's telling us
something and if anything, it's a sign of slow down,
not safe, be gentle with yourself, or get the hell
out of there.

Speaker 4 (01:16:55):
Were there any specific mechanisms or things that you did
that you found helped you most throughout your life to
keep going and to see like the light or like
that life can get better for anybody who's going through
it right now.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
Therapy was very important for me what kind of therapy
I happen to be, and I work with a therapist
is very humanistic in her focus getting up and having
something to do right, you know. So I've either been
an academic or a clinician, so that that's always been
something bigger outside of me.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):
Not leaving yourself too much time to not have much
to do. I've realized that as well, not having an
idol like not having too much space I think is
really important, Like you don't have to be too structured
in life, but to avoid yourself, whether it's going back
into bad habits or bad foot patterns. Having a busyness
to your day is really important, like having it filled

(01:17:46):
with things which are good, not too busy where you're
you're running yourself dry.

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
But that doesn't mean rest.

Speaker 4 (01:17:52):
It means keeping your mind engaged in things which help
you to get better.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Right, they're also the meaningful and intentional. Right for me,
it was exactly in clinician. It was teaching, it was
learning more about this, it was all of those things.
I'm very unbalanced. I need more balance in my life.
I need to do more things that are good for me.
I think that's still the sort of the trauma hurt
part of me still talking. I became a mother, you know,
I mean my elder daughters now twenty three, and so

(01:18:23):
that's transformative. All of a sudden you realize your body
does something that is miraculous and it produces food and
it's nurturance, and I'm like, that's what all this is
for it. You feel differently about your body after that,
and I think that mothering is the hardest thing I've
ever done. It was an important thing. I'm the kind

(01:18:45):
of gal who could easily have missed that mothering journey.
So I really do think that this is something that
the universe put in front of me as part of
this process. It made me want to be better, make
the world better for them. I also feel tremendously indebted
to my ancestors, to the women who always came, who
came before me, who had none of the opportunities recently
as my grandmother and my mother, and my mother's the

(01:19:06):
most extraordinary woman I know in terms of strength, fortitude, everything.
She's just really an extraordinary woman. And her life was
very much a sacrifice which made so much possible for me,
which feels like a responsibility, huge responsibility. You know, generations
before that married, you know, made to Mary very young,
didn't get to complete educations completely, had all voice taken away.

Speaker 4 (01:19:30):
There's a different builds the whole mindset, body, everything is
just it was create. You're right, the way that they
had to deal with things and the things that they
went through and still to this day have the most
like positive outlook to life. I find better than even
what we have when we have less that happens in
our life and we think the whole.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
Resilience and so I think that for me, it's almost
the sense of these ancestors, these women women, maybe probably
sure some of the men of my lineage. They to
be the first after so many hundreds of generators and
with the math on that is, to be the one
who gets the voice right is a You know, my

(01:20:16):
mom gave up everything and had us and stayed in
this country and had no support and had nothing. I mean,
it was what she went through is remarkable and that
I take that on as a responsibility as you know
that that then you were given voice. And for me
to not use that voice to help people, I don't know.

(01:20:38):
That's really mean.

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
Everyone very very important to me.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
So hey, I take all that put it together. The
suffering of folks who have been through these relationships is
I struggled seeing it. I see, I get sick when
I stopped to think the amount of lost potential there's
been because people have been in a relationship with somebody
who invalidated them and told them they weren't important. The
number of things and pieces of art, writing, science changes

(01:21:05):
in the world. We've missed because people felt that they
had no right. It makes me sick. So if to
the degree somebody might be even one person here's it
and says, okay, I'm going to put put myself out
there that that to me feels really really important. So
thank you, thank.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
You, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:21:24):
And yeah, I hope you can continue this conversation another
time and I can't wait to read more and listen
more to you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
Great, well, well talk again. I have a new book
coming out in February, so amazing. It's called It's Not You,
Identifying and Healing from the narcissistic people in your life.
So to break the cycles himself.

Speaker 4 (01:21:46):
Everybody, please go and check out everything that Dr Romney
has spoken about and shared. She has beautiful videos on YouTube,
she has unlimited information in her books, and she's also
just such a wonderful, loving person. And I can feel
letting that energy here. So thank you again, thank you
so much, BRODDI

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Dr. Ramani: Narcissism 101 - How to Identify Toxic Traits and Set Boundaries

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Radhi Devlukia

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Ramani: Narcissism 101 - How to Identify Toxic Traits and Set Boundaries