Tan France: Your Past Doesn't Define You - How To Find Strength to Break Barriers and Be Yourself - A Really Good Cry

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I know people will say, where are we We've got
no representation, Like because you kicked us whilst we were down,
you wouldn't give us a chance. We can't be your
perfect version of Asian. Can't we just be grateful that
we've got Asians on TV? We've got Asians at least
somewhat representing us. Fan Friends British American fashion designer from
the Emmy Award winning show Queer Eye.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Host of the web series Dressing Funny, and co host
of Next in Fashion.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
I think that people are very, very shocked when they
hear me interview as opposed to when they see me
on Queer Eye. On Queer Eye, I'm edited a lot.
They always said you're the break. We want you to
be the classy one, which is so funny because somebody
brit On I was never the class what I was
tried through and through. I'm done think I'm done with
social I'm done with being an entertainer. I'm going to

(00:44):
quit it all.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
This week's guest has broken many glass ceilings. He is
unapologetically himself a fashion icon, a party mouth, and a
fellow brand. It's no other than Tan France. In this episode,
we talk about things that Tan has never spoken about before.
We discussed as childhood, breaking cultural norms and expectations, his

(01:09):
journey from being a shy child to being on a
multi Emmy award winning show, how celebrity life has affected him,
and most importantly, the secret to his silky soft, smooth
skin at forty. This conversation is everything he is. It's insightful, vibrant, effortless,
a little bit cheeky, and absolutely hilarious. Okay, well, first

(01:31):
of all, I just want to say that I am
genuinely so excited and so honored that you came on
this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
You have so many things going on, but I really
appreciate it. I admire you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
I love everything that you've done. You have been an
icon in my life and so many people that I know,
and reading your book, I absolutely adored it because I
could hear your voice through every single sentence.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah a lot I hear.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
I could literally reading the words. I could hear your
voice was in my ear as I was reading it.
And I love that you could feel you through your
book so much. So thank you, of.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Course, thank you for all I love that you're having
me on this I'm really honored and I.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Really appreciated your honesty through the book and how vulnerable
you are about topics which some people may shy away from.
And I was thinking about the work that you do
right now, which is literally helping people be comfortable and
love themselves so deeply. But then when I was reading
your book, it made me so sad because of the
things that you've been through where you almost were trying to,

(02:33):
because of society, erase so much of yourself from a
young age. And so I really want to talk to
you and start off with that and how it was
for you, Like what was it that got you from
that place to who you are now?

Speaker 1 (02:48):
The main thing is this that I feel now. People
ask a lot, how is it to be able to
help people? How is it to make somebody who doesn't
feel great about themselves feel goodbout themselve? I'm not talking
about and queer. I'm talking about in every walk of life.
I am a peppy positive person, a peppy positive brit
which actually is not quite common for any American out

(03:09):
there that is not. I am quite an anomaly, and
it's because I thought a lot about it. I've never
done therapy, but I've thought a lot about it, and
I think when you go through such adversity as a
kid and you and you then understand how to regulate
your emotions, you understand how to process fear, anger, her upset,

(03:32):
all those things. I think that it puts you in
a really strong position as you're older, to be able
to help people with theirs. Because, quite honestly, if I've
workshopped anything in my life, it's not anything that I
do in the fashion space. It's nothing I do in
the style space. It's what I do with my emotions.
And that came from such young age. Gosh, this is

(03:54):
going to be way too much to go into, but
I'm just going to go. When you start your life
physically I ting your way to safety, that does something
to a kid. It makes you process things in a
really different way to most kids. And so I would
see these floaty kids floating around the playground yard thinking, God,

(04:15):
that life must be nice. You're just trying to have
fun with your friends, playing on your game Boy or whatever.
I'm thinking, Am I going to make it home alive today?
Those kind of struggles make sure that you are constantly
working on. Can I still be strong? Can I still
process who I am as a person? Are they knocking
me down constantly? Who am I? Really?

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Am?

Speaker 1 (04:37):
I a product of them? Am I a product of
my family and my friends? And so when you have
that your whole life, all you can do is, I
would like to believe, all you can and should do
is help others process those feelings as they get older.
It's not something ever I ever ever thought I would
do as a career. I thought I'm going to make
girls feel pretty in address, But I think the queer

(04:59):
eye they really did help me open up this thing
in my heart and my mind and my career that
I never thought possible.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
And how did you end up processing that? Fair? Because
for you, how long a period were you living would
you say in fearful from in your childhood?

Speaker 1 (05:16):
The whole time I lived in the UK. I started
to really move out of the UK in my early twenties.
I'm not shaving the UK. I love the UK. I
love the people in the UK. But as we all know,
it's the very vocal few that can really impact who
you are. And so it was those vocal few that

(05:40):
really scared me and worried me and made me fearful
of living in a country like England. And so when
I was in my early twenties, I finally got to
the point where I thought, I don't think I'm ever
going to get over these feelings. And even if there
wasn't that physical fear anymore, even if I thought well
I can protect myself, I still couldn't get over the

(06:01):
fact that I'd had twenty years of feeling this way.
It's not easy to get over. And at that point,
being in England, I didn't really consider therapy. That wasn't
something I would have considered, and so I just thought, well,
I've got to get away. I've got quite frankly, I
was running away.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, and did you find that in our culture? I
feel you said, therapy is obviously something that you don't
even think about when you're younger, but neither is you know,
moving away from home. Oh yeah, So how did you
break free from kind of the cultural expectations of you
and have the courage? Because we all have these dreams,
like we can be younger, and we can have all

(06:37):
these dreams and desires to break free from a lot
of things and to step out of our comfort zone,
but to actually do it is our whole other thing.
We can spend our whole life dreaming, which many people do.
So for people who are dreaming but haven't yet taken
that step. For you, let's be honest. You were going.
You were dealing with cultural expectations in so many different

(06:58):
ways that you were defying. How what what gave you
that courage to be like, you know what I'm going?
And was it the fear with It's simply the fear
that was like you know what, Bye, I'm done.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
There are many things that encouraged it, first and foremost,
Oh wait, how old are you?

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Thirty three?

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Okay? Then you do know this? You remember the movie
The Valie of the Lanielle Giant Game? Of course you do? Okay,
So there was so for anyone out there who does
not know what this is. This is arguably the most
successful Bollywood movie and it's still I don't know if
you know, it still plays in cinemas in India. Yeah
to this stay twenty five years later. And so I

(07:34):
watched that movie and this is girl of course Cimmeren
in the movie who asks her father for just one month.
She says, will you just give me one month to
live my life? And then I will do whatever you
want I'll marry the boy that you want it. She's
about to get an arranged marriage, she's betrothed to a boy,
and she goes to Europe, and I remember so distantly thinking,

(07:55):
one day I'm going to ask my family to give
me just a month. I just want a month where
I get to be whoever I want to be. At
that point, my dad was alive, and my dad died
when I was four, just before I turned fourteen, and
I thought, Okay, I don't have to have that really
difficult conversation. This is obviously it was a horrible experience,

(08:17):
but I also thought, I don't have to have that
tough conversation with my father to say, can you just
give me this time on my own, because all my
siblings were getting the arrange marriages, or my family has
arranged marriages. We don't really do love marriages. And so
I knew that that was my future. And then when
my dad passed away, I then weirdly had the freedom

(08:38):
to be able to say to my mom, because I
was never scared of my mom, to say, Mom was
just going to go away for a little bit. And
so that was the first thing I felt so inspired
by this movie and then there was also, as you said,
the fear thinking I've got to get away. But then, honestly,
the biggest catalyst for me was I knew I was
gay from a very young age. I always knew, and
I knew that no one would understand it my community.

(09:00):
I lived in a really small town in South Yorkshire.
There were only a few Asian families, and no matter
how hard I tried, I couldn't get rid of the gay.
I prayed so hard, like I did all I could
to try so hard to stop it, and I couldn't.
And so finally, a very young age, you just leaned in,
thinking I'm religious. I've prayed as hard as I can,

(09:23):
nothing can stop this. And so I thought, well, I
have to run away. I have to move away. My parents,
my family, sorry, will never come to America. I know
that they don't like to travel, they don't like to
fly far. America is too far for them to travel too.
If I go there, no one will ever know, and
I can lie, I can say I married a white
girl and they won't need to meet her, because we

(09:45):
typically don't marry outside of a race. So they'll be like, no,
she's not allowed to our home. Okay, great, then you
don't need to meet her. I married a white lady.
I've now lived in America, so be it, and I
honestly thought that that's how my life would play out.
But then I really my family and I still needed them.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
You had did you have the honest conversation with them
when you wanted to leave?

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Not when I know when I wanted to leave. Yeah,
to me a long time, I was like, oh, you know,
I'm gonna go for work. I'll be back thinking I'm
never going to be able to come back here. And
I honestly did think that after a few years. By
that by the time I hit twenty five, because gosh,
I'm making my people sound so archaic. They're not. It's
just our culture. But by twenty five you typically get

(10:27):
married in my culture, especially within my small South Asian
community in South Yorkshire, everyone gets married by twenty five.
If you don't, something was wrong with you. And by
wrong with you, I mean I was obviously. So I thought, Okay,
by the time I hit twenty five, I'm going to

(10:48):
have to just never see my family again. I'm just
gonna have to fall off the base of the earth
and they're going to have to just assume I died
or something, which is such a dark thing to think.
But I really did think I'm not going to be
able to have any contact, no communication. But because I'm
obsessed with my family, which is really frustrating, I couldn't
give them up. And so when I was about twenty four,

(11:09):
I told them, I was like, look, I know that
this is the expectation, but I'm gay. I found a
man that I'm going to marry instead blowing looking back
I was fifteen years ago. That is mind blowing for
my people.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, I mean even now my grandma, my grandma, and
I talked to her about my friends and one of
my friends, one of my closest friends, who is gay,
and she's like, so, how does that work?

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Like her question, and.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
It's honestly from such innocent place of like, how does
that work? I've never seen it before. So it's a
man and a man and like, and what do they do?
I'm like, they do exactly the same thing that me,
and like, it's so interesting because there's so much education
that needs to happen. But it makes me sad that
in our culture, we're still in a place where people
feel like they have to run away from what is

(12:01):
their love and their support and their security and their safety.
What is supposed to be that our culture is supposed
to be that we're based on religious principles, which traditionally
is accepting all people and loving all people.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
With a caveat if you fit in, if.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
You've but that's that's what I mean, and the fact
that you felt. And I know many people, whether it's
in my culture or in my spiritual community or in yours,
it's the same story of I have to run away
to be able to live my life versus I can
have this support and love that I need in the
community that I want to be part of. And I

(12:40):
think that there's this really sad change and shift of
what religion actually is and what spirituality actually is and
how man has or people have man, how man has
completely changed what is religion and what is culture absolutely

(13:00):
and unfortunately mixed the two where we actually don't know
because we're not going back and studying and we're not
going back and learning what it actually says.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Do you know how I feel about it is this
It doesn't matter for me what it says. I don't
judge anyone based on who they are sleeping with I
don't know what my extended family members are doing behind
closed those with their partners, and I don't care. Why
do you care so much what I'm doing behind closed those?
Why are you, as a straight man, so concerned with

(13:32):
what gays are doing behind closed doors. It's not affecting
you at all. And when I first told family and
friends when my husband and I first got married, there
were so many people who were so angry and upset
about it and how it was going to affect our culture,
the world. Yeah, and I just thought, nothing I do
with my husband is going to affect any of you.

(13:54):
It has no bearing on your lives. If anything, it's
going to show you what trulerb is because I love
my husband so deeply. Fifteen years on, he's still my
favorite person in the world, and a lot of you
could learn from my relationship. So, yes, you may be
fearful of it, maybe maybe just listen and learn something.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
It's crazy to me because when obviously living in LA,
those judgments are far less. I think people, you know,
maybe judging people's botox, but we're not judging people for
what they actually are, like you know, And every time
I go back to London. I notice that over and
over again and again. I love London. My family's from there.
It is, you know, it was something I will always

(14:33):
call home. But I find that it makes me sad
that we are not shifting with not even with the time,
with understanding the non judgmental aspect of things. And I
do find that when I have, when I've noticed people
judging others based on things like that, it comes from
such a deep rooted place of not acceptance of themselves

(14:53):
and not acceptance of Obviously, if if you're comfortable with yourself,
you're comfortable with everyone being themselves, but they think that
you're they think the other way around. They're like, you
are making me uncomfortable, You're making yourself uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Wow. Every time I go to an Asian wedding and
someone they start to widen their eyes because they're so
freaked out that I'm there. What do you think is
going to happen today? You think I'm just going to
pounce on you and try to sex you. I'm not.
First of all, you're not my type, You're not most
people's type. I'm not into you. And so the amount

(15:27):
of times I just want to say I've come into
this with nothing but love. Maybe maybe treat me the
same way I've seen my humanity first and foremost. I
don't need you to care about the fact that I'm gay.
I don't need to worry that I'm going to impact
your children anyway. If I do, it's based on my humanity,
not based on who I'm having sex with.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
And you had in your book you wrote about nature
nurture and about being gay, and I loved what you said.
Were you you were, you were born and you knew
what you wanted from the moment you can remember, like
there was no question of is it this or is
it this? And it wasn't a question of I've been
brought up in this way or raised in this way
and that's what's made me this way. And I think

(16:09):
people really miss the essence of that, because I know
even my friends who've grown up in a similar situation
where that I Do you think I would want to
Do you think I want to be in a position
where people are bullying me, beating me up, where people
are going to judge me for the rest of my life?
Do you think this is something I would just sit
here and choose? Because it is a difficult option for me.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
Well, it's funny. I hear this from my people, our
people more than most that we me and the other queers. Now,
I do doing it because it's fashionable, because it's oh,
everyone's being queer. Now, I'm like, you think that any
of us, especially South Asians, are choosing this. If you do,

(16:49):
your a moron. Yeah, that's just the way it is.
You're an absolute idiot if you think that somebody would
choose the most difficult path in life just because it's
the cool thing to do. No one's doing that. I
also hear the argument so often, but this isn't just
from our own people, this is from many, including a
lot of Americans. Well, if we put the queers on TV,
and we've got it in the movies, that's going to

(17:10):
encourage our kids. Let me tell you, all I saw
for decades was straight shows, straight movies. I watched so
many shows where men and women were kissing, having sex.
If that were true, that you can be so impacted
by a show, I'd be straight. It's all we had.
There would be not one gay person in the world

(17:31):
because we would have seen only straight people on TV.
And so it's such a stupid argument. I just if
nothing else, I just want people to think I'll give
him the benefit of the doubt. He's just a kind person.
Can't we just see that person foremost exactly?

Speaker 2 (17:46):
And I find that, you know, every time I think
about being in that situation and how you have now
become who you are, I wonder, like, do you still
feel a lot of what happened to you when you're
when you were younger is still shaping who you are now?
Or do you feel you've spent enough time processing it
and kind of digesting it.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
I don't feel the feelings I used to feel, and
I've worked on that heck of a lot since I
came to America, and so much of it is through
my husband. I say I never needed a night in
shining arm or I didn't eat a white night, but
unfortunately that one. But it's just because he helped me
understand what love looks like and what kindness looks like.

(18:30):
My husband is one of the kindest peit. If you
ever meet somebody who's met my husband, they will say
he's the nicest manual ever met. He's an angel from heaven,
and so he has really made me understand that all
those things that I thought of myself were untrue. Do
I still feel those feelings sometimes? Absolutely? Do. I sometimes
look in the mirror and have to remind myself it's
okay if I look darker that day, it's not a problem. Yeah, yes,

(18:52):
you do not need to bleach your skin. Or that's
just that shitty little feeling that you were getting when
you're a kid, or there's that education you got as
a kid that that's not true. I think that's the
main residual issue I have is reminding myself my skin
clothes beautiful, don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
I've trained myself for a long time for that, because
I actually grew up as being the lightest sibling and
one of the lighter girls in my family. And it
was so funny because I loved my sister so much.
Everything she did, She's four years older than me, everything
she did was like, I want to wear that, I
want to be Yeah, I want to do everything she does.
She was actually darker than me growing up, and all

(19:31):
we would hear throughout our really our time as children,
was I was the lighter skinned girl with green eyes
from our whole community, family, friends, everything, it would be.
People would see me, they'd be like, look at her
green eyes. She's so fair, and my sister would always
feel it. I didn't even know she felt that way
until we got older, and only recently, within the last
couple of years. I can't of remember when we had

(19:51):
this conversation and I realized that our relationship had actually
was difficult, not even not difficult. We weren't as close
as we could have been because everyone was batting us
against each other from the moment I was born.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
And not based on your accomplishments.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
And she was the more intelligent one. She was the
one who did everything right. She was an incredible child
and human growing up. But it was just those things
that made our relationship so difficult. And she's worked through
so much of it, and I can feel it where
we've come to a place where she realized it wasn't
about anybody else, and she realized everything everyone else was

(20:29):
telling us was influencing our relationship, and so did I
and we're able to love each other so deeply now.
But it took years, Yes, it took years. And even
now I go on holiday and I'm like, you know what,
I actually love getting a tan now since I've got
since I've got here, I'm like, it is so beautiful,
and it is so it makes me feel so vibrant
and alive. But it's that's that little thread that goes

(20:52):
through your mind because I know my mom's like, oh,
you know, you've got a tan, And every time she
says that, I'm like, is she saying that in a
bad way or in a good Families.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Will always come and say, oh, you look dark. And
it's never in a wow love that you've got to chat.
It's never even on holiday you look great.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
No, it's not that.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
It's never that, it's never that.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Do you ever find it difficult being because I find
as soon as you are from a minority group, who
you know makes it big and you end up being,
without asking for it, kind of the spokesperson for things.
How has that been for you? Because I know for me,
even though it's to a much smaller degree, I find
it not suffocating but a little bit scary because I love,

(21:35):
I love, actually love the culture that we come from,
and I and I really have learned to embrace it,
whether it's the food, the colors, the culture. And actually
I notice it being embraced so much more in different
ways in the Western culture now. It's you know, we've
got our turmeric lattes and we have our yoga somewhereset's
come in. And I appreciate that, and I love being

(21:57):
that person because it is part of who I am.
But at the same time, it's a scary place to
be because as soon as you do one thing that
upsets people, you are officially upsetting a whole community, and
you're taking down, in their eyes, a whole community.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
For anyone who doesn't know, there are like one point
eight billion of us, which is insane. In the West,
there are so few of us on television or in
the media, a handful. I think I could probably count
ten max who are known people like household names. And

(22:35):
the difficult the difficulty is is that so many people
want to want to feel like the victim within a
victimized group. But when you are queer and Muslim and
an immigrant and you are also South Asian, like, oh no,
I'm a minority within that minority, even though it's not

(22:58):
a minority because there's alvious two million of us, because
there are none of us really that represent the way
that the whites have or the black community as in America,
we are such a small group of entertainers, and I
consider you entertainer. I don't know if that's how you
refer to yourself as you enter. The pressure is so great,

(23:18):
but I try really hard to not think about that.
I really try and think what feels right for me.
I'm going to do that and if it doesn't work,
I'm the first one to say, which is probably shitty
for a lot of people. I can't represent you all.
It's physically impossible. I can't be your version of a

(23:39):
perfect person. I can only be the best version I
can come up with. But I will say, and this
is controversial, but you and I were talking about it.
For one I'm just gonna go there. I do feel
so much pain, not from the white community, not from
the black, not of any of the community, like I
do from our own community. Anyone else can knock me down.
I'm like, oh yeah, that stung a little bit, but

(24:01):
when it's from our own it feels like taking a bullet.
Because I was also this person, I would cry out
for representation on TV in England when I was coming up,
we didn't really have anyone. Maybe a family on EastEnders
every now and then, but that was the best we got.
There were caricatures of who we are. Yeah, and so

(24:23):
there really wasn't real There weren't real people, and so
I always thought, gosh, what is it about us that
no one wants to see? Why don't they care about us?
And now I kind of get it, because now that
we have us, there are a few of us. Our
people are the first ones to knock us down. And
I just think, if we go away, if me, you

(24:46):
and the other seven or eight of us go away,
because we keep getting so much abuse for our own people.
I know our people will say, where are we? We've
got no representation, like because you kicked us whilst we
were down, because you made us go away, you wouldn't
give us a chance. We can't be your perfect version
of Asian. Can't we just be grateful that we've got
Asians on TV? We've got Asians at least somewhat representing us.

(25:09):
When I go to an Asian event, I try and
put on at least something that Stasian. I was one
of the first people that were a Schiavanni years ago
to the Emmy's, like one of the first who was
actually nominated for award who wore a Shiavanni. And so
many of our people not to be down saying, well,
I don't mind that caller, Oh that's more of a
wedding Shiavanni was, I don't care. Oh he's got a
Mongol suthra, and yeah, I loved it. I just thought

(25:30):
it was a beautiful piece of jewelry. I'm not saying
of a bride like all those things that came from
our community. I just thought, can't you just be grateful
that one of us is wearing something Asian here tonight.
I didn't just turn up in a tuxedo. And so
that's the only part that I find stifling. I just
think our people give us a break. We can't be

(25:51):
perfect always. For you be grateful that you've got a
Salva Asian who's a positive influence.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
It's so true, and you've kept going regardless of all
of it. And that's what people don't see. And I
actually really appreciate how you know, you're someone who could
You know, when people see a celebrity and they see
what kind of life they live or the glamor of
it all, you imagine that they want to be seen
all the time, want to you know it almost people
don't realize that it's a human role that you just

(26:19):
appreciate the work that you're doing. It's not that you
necessarily want to be spoken about all the time and
seen all the time and heard all the time. And
you've really removed you, I feel from you know, a
lens of seeing you a little bit closer than the
outside world, that you've removed yourself from. What could have
been you being paparazzi all the time, or being being

(26:40):
in the eye all the time. What made you remove
yourself from kind of I think the celebrity culture that
could have been living in la and living in the
thicker bit.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Actually our people, really, I really really when I got
the job, I was at that time. Look maybe I'm wrong,
and maybe there was somebody else, but at that time
time I was the first queer South Asian who was
openly queer. And then I was also the first openly
queer Muslim, and so I just thought, I want to

(27:10):
do the best I can for our people. I want
to try really hard to be the perfect person, which
no one can be, but I really wanted to try,
and so I thought I saw my cast mates so
queer I was the first show. Anyone who doesn't know
where I'm from. I'm from initially from a show called Queerrai,
which was the first entertainment job I ever got. And
on this show there were five of us. I'm the
only South Asian. Yeah, I'm the only foreigner of renswers

(27:35):
from the US actually, and he's from Canada, but he
was raised in the US anyway. So they all wanted
to move to New York for LA. One of them
was already in LA, but the rest of them were
moving to New York LA, and I made a conscious
decision to stay where I was in Salt Lake City, Utah.
I didn't want to be stumbling out of a nightclub.
I didn't want to be seen at every party I want.

(27:56):
I wanted our people to see, you know what, he's
taking this ready serious, He's taking this this quite honestly,
this burden really seriously. Yes, I know that our job
pays better than most jobs. I know that we get
invited to parties, but it is quite a responsibility and
sometimes a burden of responsibility to represent so many people.
And so I just thought, if I stay home, people

(28:17):
will see that I'm just about the job. That's and
it's just my job. I still am the same person
I always was, and six years on it's now being
Oh gosh, it's close to seven years in February that
we start shooting the show. I slip in Saltlake. I
just finished my dream home. I plan to live there forever.
I don't live in LA I don't live in New York.
You will never see me stumbling out stumbling out of

(28:38):
a nightclub, which no shade. But they a lot of
people who are in that position. They don't have to
speak for their community. There are thousands of millions of
white people on TV. You get to make all your
mistakes and no one's going to care about that. But
if I make mistakes, if you make mistakes, we know
what that means for our people. And so that's why

(28:59):
I choose to not live that life. You don't typically
see me out and about. Yeah, you'll see me do interviews. Yeah,
you'll see me do press. That's part of my job.
I'm required to do press. I'm contractually obligated to do
press for my work. But other than that, you don't
see me out and about.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Now, I feel like the energy that you've kept and
maintained for yourself is so beautiful and from the moment
that I met you in person, Like I've seen you
on TV and I was always a fan, but meeting
you in person was even better than all of that,
perfect because I felt that as soon as I met you,
I felt completely grounded in your energy and I could
tell that you've worked so hard to even build that

(29:34):
within yourself and to maintain being a positive person as
you are. Like you are, your energy gives to so
many people from the moment they see you. It just
feel like feel you fill people up. How do you
as a person who is regularly probably torn down and
you choose not to see it, but you still get that.
How do you want what you're drinking? But also what

(29:56):
do you do on a daily basis or on a
you know what fuels you?

Speaker 1 (30:00):
You know? Okay, I've got so much I want to
say about this, because a lot of the Brits will
say that it's an act. I came to America and
I just did a peppy think because Americans a peppy
and phony. That's what they think. I'm like, No, Actually,
most of the people in my life are peppy because
they really do want to see the positive in life,
and I love that about them, and I feel that way. Also,

(30:21):
I often think, well, what am I going to moan about?
What have I got to be angry about. I'm the
luckiest person in the world. I've got my husband who
I love. I've got friends who I love and respect.
I've got my children who I'm obsessed with. What have
I really got that I need to moan about? Yeah,
I have my gripes every now and that, Yeah, Okay,
this didn't work out, that didn't work out. But on
the whole, an incredibly happy person. But that's because I'm

(30:44):
actively working on that regularly. I don't think happiness just comes.
I think you've got it's a process, and so the
things that keep me that way. It works in my
relationship a lot. You know. I was recent with a
couple of friends and there were talking about relationships, and
they are very public and they are in relationships now,

(31:06):
but they have had failed relationships in the past, and
we were talking about my relationship and they were saying,
we just want a relationship like yours and robs. You
love each other like you're obsessed with each other, and
you will never, ever when you're not around that person,
rip them down. Yes, I will never belittle my partner
will never speak negatively. And I've said many times I'm
going to say it here again. Your relationship, as far

(31:28):
as I'm concerned, should be the easiest thing in your life.
It should be the thing that grounds you and gives
you comfort. If anytime I hear somebody talk about how
hard the relationship is or marriage is really hard work,
I just think you're in the wrong one. I don't
think it has to be that way. And so, yeah,
work on things, things will come up, work on them.
But your resting state in your relationship shouldn't be it's
hard work. It's not. And so that is a really

(31:51):
a real grounding force me my partner, but then also
my family. If I do something that's kind of bonkers,
my sister. I love my sisters so much. I speak
was so regularly, but she's the first one to take
the piss when I've want something in a red carpet
that is wild, and I keep having treminded I can't
wear a tuxedo because I'm the style guy. I've got
to switch, you know, I've got to keep people on

(32:13):
their toes. And sometimes it's bonkers, and I know it's bonkers,
but I'm like I want to keep them guessing. And
she's the first one with my cousins who'll be like,
what were you thinking, Like you look like a clown. Yeah,
I know, but I'm enjoying myself, and so having people
like that in my life also really helps. And if
I start to get a little bit extra, they're the
first ones to say, let's not get it twisted. We're
from a very poor community in England, like chill out. Yeah,

(32:37):
I tone it down, man, And that all really helps,
and it reminds me of just how grateful I am
for this life. I was never meant to be here Radia.
I was never meant to be here, and so the
fact that I get to a coup in my home
every day with my partner and I get to enjoy
all of this, I just think, Yeah, I think I'm overjoyed.

(32:58):
I'm overjoyed. It's not an act. And I think that
when people see my joy and I talk about how
I like to be positive on TV, I am also
a bit Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
By the way, I'm going to get onto that in
your book, because I love that part of you in
the book.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Definitely. I think the duality is really important.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
I will say be sassy and still be a kind person.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh my gosh. Absolutely. And here's the thing. I think
that people are very very shocked when they hear me
interview as opposed to when they see me on QUEERRA.
On Queer, I I'm edited a lot. I don't swear really.
On Queer I'm edited so heavily. They always said you're
the brit we want you to be the classy one,
which is so funny because somebody put us on and
I was never the class what I was trying through

(33:42):
and through and so now I when I'm when I'm
doing interviews, I need people to see now I'm a
fully dimensional person. I can have a bitchy comment. I'm
always sassy. I've always got a sak equip. But it
doesn't mean I'm not kind. I will always try and
be kind, but sometimes I think not that person being
a told douchebag.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
It's real, and I think it really helps when you
say that about your family, there's a there's a sense
of if you're close people that you really love and adore,
they accept and love you. There's a sense of security
and solid foundation where even if everything else gets rattled
around you, you have this to come back to Wait,

(34:23):
what was it? What were you saying that I wanted
to touch on. Oh yeah, so you in your book
talk about Emma. It made me laugh so much. The
girl who or who have the Emma then reached out
to you on Facebook.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yes, that was a big name.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Facebook, and I wanted to ask you about whether you
actually still have any friends left from your childhood, like
do you have friends? Would you friends from that time?

Speaker 1 (34:56):
One from when I was sixteen? I don't have friends
from like school, but as soon as I entered college,
I met this one girl in my hometown who is
still one of my very very closest friends. Oh this
is quite honestly. So I had mostly white friends at
school because the majority of my school was white, but
there were a couple of Asian kids in my year

(35:17):
and I was friends with them. We got along great
with watch school together. However, when I came out, none
of them wanted to be a part of my life.
They were just very traditional. One Indian person and then
two Pakistanis and yeah, all of them wanted to not
be involved with me once I came out.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
How do you manage obviously after everything changes and you know,
people feel even celebrity relationships and friendships are criticized of
not being real because once you're once you're in the
public eye, it's like, well everything is just fake, that
everything is fake. How has it been for you building
friendships and do you feel like you've been able to

(35:55):
build deep connections with people? And what do you determine
a real friendship to be? Because I think people struggle
with that.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Okay, wait, can you write a note down? Please just
write the word illuminati. I need you to come back
to that. So you just reminded you of something that
is so funny that I've never said, and I wrote
what to tell? Please do. So when it comes to friendships,
how I view friendships is like real friendships. So I've
had friends for years who were my friends before Queerie,

(36:23):
and that's still my friends and I'm so grateful for that.
Like the eight girls their partners, they all come over
to a house for dinner. I cook from them regularly.
They're still my writer debts. And then my British friends
who I love, my newer friends. I will say this
and people, this is something I wrote in the book
that never made it into the final version that you
guys see because my editor was like, people might take

(36:46):
this really badly, and I was like, okay, but I'm
going to tell.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
You now please.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
And I've never said this before. I don't make new
friends who aren't entertainers. And I know that sounds who
aren't and and I know that sound shitty, but let
me explain why it's. I find it easier making friends
who are entertainers because I'm not worried that they're going
to tell somebody something that entertainers. No, you're not meant

(37:12):
to stay to the wrong person, and they don't have
anything to benefit from me. Most of the people who
are my close friends who are famous are much more
famous than I could ever be. And I know that
they know I need nothing from them, they need nothing
from me, and that balance makes me really comfortable. Whereas

(37:35):
if somebody knew and I tried with the first couple
of years, not that I tried, Actually it just came
to me. People I would meet at my gym, I
would go out for coffee with them, and that eventually
there was an ask for something like, oh god, I
really thought that this was just real, and then you
wanted this or this or this that you wouldn't have
expected from anyone who wasn't an entertainer and so as

(37:57):
shitty as it might sound to most people out there,
thinking oh he's gotten so high and mighty, you won't
make friends with real people anymore, that's not the case.
It just it's easier and I feel safer when it's
somebody I know that doesn't need anything from me.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Do you experience also, Yeah, I've you know, my my
OG friends from school or from when I was really young.
Every time we have a new person that I'm someone
who I love making friends with me, I love building
community and so but for them, every time they see
someone trying to be friends with me or coming back
into my DMS like someone that I had had a

(38:33):
fight with and they're messaging me again, I always am like,
you know what, that's so nice. And I think I
also have this feeling of wanting to be accepted by
people from my past that like, oh, this girl that
really didn't like me, now she's messaging me, Let me
go off for coffee with her for what reason? But
like it does go through my head to do that.
I think I have people pleasing mentality anyway, But I

(38:54):
do find that the first point of thought for my
family and friends. As protection is, are you sure they
want to be your friend? But I used to then
stop myself from engaging with people because that thought was
coming into my mind too often, and so I made
a decision that, like I would give everyone the benefit

(39:15):
of doubt. And this has scarred me a little bit.
But give everyone the benefit of doubt until the point
where they realize they can't get anything from me, and
then they will fall off. And that's a lot of investment,
for sure. It's a lot of investment, and it's definitely
burned me a fair few times. But it shows up
even if you don't see in the first meeting or
the second being in some way, it will show up.

(39:37):
And so yes, eventually it will boil down to a few.
And it is the people that you can relate to.
It's the people who get that. You know, when you're
talking about having a hard day and you're an entertainer,
people be like, you do not have a hard day.
Whereas when you have people in your own circle or
with people who have the same it's the same as
a doctor. Like if a doctor is friends with the doctor,

(39:58):
they know what the night shifts are like, they how
hard it is. To, you know, lose a patient. They
understand it because you've been through it, and so you
always want to be around people that have also been
through what you've been through and can understand the circumstance
that you're in.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
So it's not like carry pick really is.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
It's just who can you relate to? You can understand
that I've had a twelve hour shoot and I am exhausted,
and I can message and they won't judge me for
saying I'm exhausted for it.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, And who can I trust? And I'm not talking
about who can I trust to not sell a story,
it's who can I trust in those deepest, darkest moments
at night when they're at my home And I like
to have people come visit and stay at my home,
and when they come, I know that they're not going
to jose the fact that I haven't done my hair,
I haven't put nice clothes on. I just want to be.

(40:45):
I just want to be as if I'm with my closest,
oldest friends, and that brings that gives me a sense
of comfort, and I trust that no one's ever going
to find out those deepest darkests. I already appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Agree and I think, you know, that's it, You've hit
the nail and head. It's trust, like if you can
build trust within a relationship. And I think the reciprocation
is interesting. I always thought about that because I have
been a friend who's always wanted to just pour in.
And I think it's because I used to get a
lot of value from other people's need of me in
their life, and so I feel through that I would

(41:18):
just give and give and give because I felt that
is my value in their life, whether it was friends
or family. But then I realized, and I used to think,
you know what, No, but that's just part of it.
If you love someone, you just keep giving. But reciprocation
is such an integral part of love. It's part of
like you have to have a loving exchange, you fuel
each other. It's part of the love cycle. It doesn't
have to be in the same way or even to

(41:40):
the same capacity, because we're all different and need different things,
but the reciprocation has to be there. And so I
think I've started redefining what I see friendship to be
versus It's just if I like them, then that's it,
and we can hang out and we can spend time together.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
And friendships can be really different. I mean, I've got
friends who I will text every couple of days. But
then I've got friends who I'll see at parties, and
some might call them acquaintances, but I love them deeply.
I'm going to give you an example. I love Foreigner.
I consider her a good friend. Do I text her
more than once every three months? No, But every time

(42:16):
I see her, she is the person I She's the
person I go right to a party, regardless of who
else is there. She's my girl. And so there's different
for me. There's different levels of the friendship, but it's
not that one is better than the other. I just
experienced them differently, and I like that I have different
versions of friends. Yeah, now I have to tell you
this at really so whenever I say to somebody remind

(42:37):
me of something, it's just my way trying to remember
that thing.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
So, when I got the show, I didn't tell So
I didn't tell my family at all until the show
came out, which was not a good idea. But I
was already worried about how they would feel about it.
I thought, they're, well, they're going to be pissed, and
they were, and so I didn't tell anyone, And so
I went to England for what I thought was given

(43:01):
my last visit where I would ever see my family again,
and dramatic and I kept crying and no one understood why.
But anyway, and one of those evenings I was with
my extended family. My family's the kind of family where
it's not just my immediate family, it's also cousins aunts.
Of course we're close and I love them, And so
there were probably forty of us in a room just

(43:22):
and we sat on the floor, we chitchat and we
were talking Weirdly. Celebrity came up and they were saying, well,
the only way people get famous is by joining the Illuminati.
And I was like, I don't know if that's true. Well, no,
that's the only way you can get on TV or
in a movie. I was like, I don't know if
that's true. And only one person, my sweet cousin who

(43:43):
I'm story close to. She she looked over and she
was like, oh my god, one day they're going to
think that you joined the Illuminati. Then the show came
out and the first question I got was, did you know?
I didn't even know what that means. I don't know
if anyone is that, and they truly like still to

(44:04):
this day. I had some cousins come out literally two
weeks ago and one of them very calmly, like two
in the morning, I sleep by ten. This was very late.
We say up what We were just having a giggle
and a gossip and talking about family. And then finally
she turned and she said, can I ask you something
really personal? I was like, yeah, of course, again we've
known to the brother. Did you like, did you do

(44:26):
anything with the Illuminati?

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Was?

Speaker 1 (44:27):
I don't know what that is? No idiot, I would
tell you I don't.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Know what that so many times it's so funny. I
don't know whether it's just a UK thing and made
it there and it stuck with us, but it was
definitely a thing.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
They do something with them.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
There's YouTube videos about all the like celebrities.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
And I was like, so they were like, no, Beyonce
does this, and like, I think it's because she's part
of rock Nation. I think that that's their locos. I
don't think she's doing a devil sized I've seen.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
I've heard so many there's a rabbit hole that you
can go into. I know, yeah, don't go down, you
might't believe you are actually part of it.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Sometimes I have to question myself, thinking did I agree
to something? Apparently they say you just have to think it.
I'm like, did I once think that as a teenager
because I used to want to be a pop star,
I used to want to be Britain. I'm like, oh,
one day, God just make me Britain. And so I
just like, did I subconsciously agree with the devil that
this was how my life was going to go?

Speaker 2 (45:29):
That's a really great story there. I feel I can
really relate to that because I've heard that a few times.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
So domb And I'm assuming you're family at some point
and thought it. Believe me, everybody they are.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
We signed some sort of contract we all did. I
wanted to ask you about your confidence because going from
someone who obviously was quite shy and we shy growing up, yeah,
shy growing up, and then to be the person you
are now, it's not just a jump that happens other
things for people who you can recommend that you've done
to really help work through the difficult parts of yourself

(45:59):
that you have to accept, plus just showing up as yourself.
It sounds like such an easy thing to do, right,
like just be yourself not but it is so difficult,
and for you it's you know, for what you've been through,
it's even more difficult. How can someone do that?

Speaker 1 (46:14):
So there was the first time I ever cried on Queer.
I was I think episode sorry, not episode season three
or four. We have lost track, but three or four.
This man in a wheelchairs name is Wesley, who he loved.
He asked me during our scene, where do you get
your confidence from?

Speaker 2 (46:30):
You?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
The most confident person I've met? And I just started
to cry because I was like, I'm not. I would
never ever have considered myself a confident person. And to
highlight this, I went to an awards ceremony a couple
of days ago to present my friend with an Icon award,
and I went to the party alone. I typically go
places alone. My husband doesn't like to be part of

(46:53):
this celebrity life which I love and respect so much,
and so I typically go alone. And I do this
almost every time I go to an event. I call
him from the car staying, I'm just gonna go home,
even though I'm in my outfit, I've gotten ready, I'm
just gonna go home. I'm really nervous, like I'm no
one's gonna talk to me, and if they and if
I walk into my own they're gonna judge me. I'm

(47:13):
gonna go home. And he's always the one who has
to say, You've got nothing to be shy about, embarrassed about.
People care you. Whenever you go to a party, you
find somebody that you can relate to, don't worry about it.
But he has to talk me off the ledge every time.
And I watch in this party and I was so
nervous and there was no pr person, and I started
to feel the panic, thinking, oh my gosh, I don't

(47:36):
belong here. Everyone else is cool and famous and I'm
just tan, like I'm just I revert back to Yorkshire town,
who no one wants to hang out with. And I
feel that every time. And I've been in this for
quite a few years now, where E is one every
Emmy that you could, where I made history, one more

(47:57):
Emmys than any other one, any of the show in
nounscripted in history. Yet I still can't go into a
room and not panic that people don't think I'm worthy
of being there. And so the illusion of confidence. I
wish I could give advice I'm not that confident person
that people believe that. I'm just not. But I will
say that in myself and in my own circle to

(48:20):
people that I'm close with. I am confident in those
spaces because I've worked on myself for so many years.
And when I say that, I mean every time I
hear criticism, I just think what can I do differently
to make sure that no one sees that? But I
also don't display that because that's not I'm not that person,

(48:41):
and so I've worked on that back of a long time.
Or even if I am that person, even if they
do hate the fact that I'm brown, I'm queer, I'm
all those things, how do I reconcile that in myself
and accept that that's their problem, not mine. So in
those spaces where I really know people, I feel really
good and confident, and I feel like when my friends
are all in a room, I am the loudest one.
I am one who is the host of that room.

(49:02):
But that's only with people I feel safe with.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
I was asking for myself too, because I can completely
relate to that, because I think for me, I've always
found it difficult walking into rooms. I always need someone
walking in front of me or beside me. I found
that so hard.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
I'm sorry to cut you off, but I need to
give you an example of yes view. The first time
I saw you, I think it was the first time
we I think it was the first time I saw you.
It was the first time we spoke, but I don't
think i'd seen you at another event before then. It
was Balbajaria and it was just like a gathering of
South Asians in Hollywood. And you walked into the room
and I saw you, and I knew immediately that you

(49:39):
felt the same way I did. But I could see
the nerves on your Basically, you were just looking for
someone you might know to talk to. And I knew
it the moment I saw you walk and I was like, Oh,
she's bricking it too.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
I was, and I always do, and usually I find
my way to the bathroom first, and I spent about
twenty minutes in there, especially if I'm going somewhere alone,
because that day, no one was coming with me, and
no one I knew was actually no one I knew
very well was going. And I think mine comes from
and I've been reflecting on this a lot. I think
I came into all of this through j And for me,

(50:11):
the not feeling, not feeling accepted in a room is
like I'm just here because they want him here, or
I'm just here because they've invited me on top of
this person. And I think I struggle that and that's
why i'm this. I feel very similar to your husband,
where I'm like, I don't want to be invited. I
don't feel the necessity to go anywhere unless this for

(50:31):
a reason. So if I'm just coming as because you're invited,
and I'm invited on.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Top, that's why my husband goes for nothing else.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah, and it's not because I have an ego, But
I've been trying to really break it down because I
think for many people, we have this imposter syndrome that
comes upon us. And I definitely have felt that because
fame was never something I desired ever growing up. It
was never something for myself. It was never ever something
I was a dietician in a hospital, and that's how
I really want That's how I never saw myself and

(50:59):
that I never saw a start on TV and thought
I want to be that the.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Only person who said that everyone you.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
I wanted to treat children like that's literally what I
wanted to do, and you want to work with kids,
and I think it's beautiful, and what the effect that
you can have as being someone who can can have
an incredible community, Like that's incredible. But there was never
something I desired, and so when it came to me,
I felt ungrateful for feeling like that. So I was like,
I have to accept it, and I want to. I

(51:27):
want to embrace it and see what I can do
with it. But I still feel the feeling of I've
come into this because of someone else, and so walking
into a room has always been difficult for me for
that reason, and I think that's something I'm still working on.
So the confidence, the lack of confidence is, oh, she's
here because of this, or she's online doing this because
of her husband.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
And so how do you reconcile that.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
I think I'm still working on it. Honestly, I keep
reminding myself that I I'll tell you how I did
start to reconcile it. I was like, I know they're
coming to my page, and I know they're coming here
because of Jay, which is amazing because he's incredible, But
at the same time, let me be of value that
I am providing something to their life that is benefiting them.

(52:08):
And if I know what I'm giving is giving either
joy or wellness or sharing something that's going to change
their life as it has mine, whether it's my spiritual
practices or whatever it is, then at least I know
I've added value to their life. So I think I've
reconciled it in my mind. And I shift between this,
I mean on a weekly basis where I'm like, I
think I should just shut down my Instagram and just

(52:28):
not We do that all the time, and I think
I keep reminding myself that whether it is five people,
whether it is two million or five million, whatever it is,
you have this amazing ability to shift someone's perspective or
to touch their heart in some way, or the messages

(52:48):
where you get you've saved my life, like whatever those
little things are. I remind myself of how grateful I
am to be in that position, but then remind myself
that that means there's a duty to keep learning, keep
sharing and sharing things of value, and so yeah, I
think that's how I do it, but I still find
it really difficult.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
You know, the social media component that you just mentioned
is really important for me. I experienced the same thing.
So often I just think, Okay, I'm on TV and
that should be the thing that I do. I don't
need to. I mean, technically, I do need to be
on social It's part of the contract that I have
to post my show, post about the shows. However, I
have thought many times I just want to shut it down.

(53:27):
I want to go against my contract and I want to
shut it down and say, Okay, if you don't want
me just because I'm not on social media, then so
be it. There was some drama a couple of weeks
ago and I was like, Okay, that's it. I'm done,
Like I'm done with social I'm done with being an entertainer.
I'm going to quit it all. And I was talking
about it. I I cried a lot lately, and I

(53:49):
talked to Oh my God a lot, and we'll talk
about that after this. This is not I won't talk
on this publicly, but I spoke to my husband about it,
and I was like, I think I think we're done.
We've got everything we could ever need. I would like
to believe we're not greedy people. We have our home,
we have our kids, We've got enough money to provide
for our kids a comfortable life, not a fancy life

(54:11):
in the future if we stopped working now, but a
comfortable life. And I was like, wait, my husband and
I both come from very poor families. This is amazing
what we've achieved. His next level, like, we don't need
to do anymore. And I was saying, I'm ready to
walk away from entertainment, and he reminded me of why
I did this in the first place, and he was like,
can I know that so many people are acting like

(54:33):
they hate you right now and that you're the devil.
Look at all those positive people are positive comments, and
the people who truly do look to you as a
shining light, a north staff for them, like if he
can do it, I can do it. I came from nothing.
He came from nothing, Like if he can do it,
we can do it. And it is I hate to

(54:55):
sometimes let the haters win, but sometimes they do with me.
It's so much loud, Oh my gosh. And so I'm
glad that that moment is over and I feel stronger again.
And when we talk about confidence, I've now gotten the
confidence in this space, not a social space, to be
able to say I have I'm offering added value to

(55:15):
the people who are looking at my insta or the
people who watching the show. Yeah, some people may hate me,
but even if it's just a few people out there
who are like, god, I love that I'm finally being
seen because that person is offering me that that's okay.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
It is. It's a difficult space to be in because
and I think for anybody that ends up listening to this,
it could end up sounding like we're like, oh, you
know what, social media is so hard and our life
is so hard, and this is difficult for people to
be watching us. And what people don't realize is you.
As much as everybody's duty is in their job to

(55:51):
do different things, social media is also part of a
duty and a job too where you take that on. So, yes,
you can accept the hate and you can accept I
accept that people will not like me. That is something
I will accept. I will accept that people will have
an opinion. But what I find difficult to accept is
the level to which people take their criticism and their abuse.

(56:15):
That goes with people, And by the way, that's not
just with people who are public figures. That's with bullying,
that's with anybody behind the screen who is sharing something
with people who don't even have followers. That really impacts
people's lives. And I think we forget the energetic value
and how much words and actions that we take affect
people because we're doing it behind the screen, But we

(56:37):
forget that every single word, every single action carries a
ripport energy that is going throughout this world. And so
when I think about why there ends up being so
much hate, and when something happens, you know, whether it's
around the world or whether it's with myself, you have
a choice of either you can take that pain and
you share pain, or you can take that pain and

(56:58):
you can support each other and being pain together, but
love one another because we have the opportunity to do
that one.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Point that you touched on that I'm going to hell
on a lot of people who are like, oh, they're
on social media, they're posting, they're entertainers, they've got a
lot of followers, boohoo, like your tiny little violin, who cares?
You're the most privileged people in the world. I'm like, Yeah,
that doesn't mean that I still don't have a heart,
I still don't have feelings. I wasn't born into weelth No,

(57:26):
I wasn't I haven't had a privileged life. My life
is very privileged. Now I get it, but I understand you.
I was that person. I was that very working class person.
I was the person on the bus. I was a
person in the call center. You think I don't know
your life. I know your life. Yes, I'm in a
different space now. It doesn't mean I lost my mind
and I'm no longer a human. And I have to

(57:47):
remind my family of that a lot to say. Just
be you know. I had a friend who came to
an event a couple of years ago, I wrote when
I went on my book tour. She turned up to
an event and it was somebody only from college. She
came with one of my very best friends, and she
walked through dough. She said, Hi, Danni's Kelly. I don't
know if you remember me. And I was like, do
you think i'dleer botomy? I became an entertainer. I didn't

(58:11):
lose my mind. Of course. We were together for three years.
I practically live Hou's you nott job Like, of course
I remember who you are. And she was like, I'm
so sorry. That was so silly. I was like, yeah,
I'm still the person you knew and so when people
make those comments like, oh, they're upset that they're having
a hard time from the public on social media, Yeah,

(58:32):
I am upset that I'm getting a hard time because
I am still that person, and I don't as much
as I know, I'm not deluded. I know I'm an entertainer,
I know I'm famous. I get it. However, I most
of the time I do still feel just like Tanned
from South Yorkshire. No, I don't. I would like to
believe unless they're not. I would like to believe most

(58:54):
of us aren't walking around our homes thinking I am
famous people. No, not, Well, that's insane. Most of the
time I forget and then I step out of my
house and somebody will say hello, and I'm like, oh, yeah, duh.
And so when you're pissy at us because we're moaning
that we've had a hard time, you're allowed to moan

(59:15):
about your job. Why can't moan about my job?

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Yeah? I really appreciate being able to share joy online,
but I also find that when you do do that,
and when you were saying that, people thought that you
were fake with the way that you were acting in
your smiliness and everything. It's hard because you want to
show up as someone who is positive online because you
want to be able to share that with the world.
But then, of course you have your times where you're

(59:37):
upset and I get messages that are like, how are
you just happy all the time? It can't be and
I'm not. I cry all the time. I'm sad a
lot of the time, Like what, But I want to
choose to I'm being mindful and practicing not just because
of who I am, but practicing mindfulness in how I
share myself with other people because of how it impacts it.

(01:00:00):
And I think it just it's such a the way
that we have the ability to affect the world, and
not just if you're famous, if you have anybody in
your life, you have this ability to either smile at
someone or frown at them on the street. You have
this ability to either share words with the person that's
selling you something in a kind way, or you don't.
Every single thing you're doing is impacting the kindness of

(01:00:23):
the entire world, and I think that we forget how
much of a difference it makes by our small little
actions and how big they can actually end up being collectively.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
The flip side, though, is when I am on social
Not regularly I will, but often enough. I will post
when I'm going through something. Yeah I'm not one for
crying on camera that on the show, but when I'm
going through something, oh gosh, especially when I had my kids,
they were the hardest months of my life, those first

(01:00:55):
few months of each respective child. And I shared that
I wanted people to no, I'm not a mommy blogger.
I'm not saying I'm going to be in Chanel. My
daughter is in Chanelle and we look perfect. I'm not
making a massive breakfast my kid. I'm knackered, like I'm tired.
I barely sept I've got a twelve hour shoot day.
I want people to know that, although yes, I'm a

(01:01:18):
joyful person, I still have really hard times. Yeah, and
I think that's really important for me to share with you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Yeah, definitely same. I think it is two and I
think we all. I think there's this concept of wanting
to worship something, but sometimes we end up worshiping It's
like everyone wants to worship something, but be careful what
you worship, and so we end up worshiping humans, and
we end up worshiping idols that we see and instead
of worship we can appreciate, but let's not worship and

(01:01:45):
put people on pedestals that they're not asking to be on,
or that they shouldn't be on in even your own
heart and mind, because it only leads to disappointment.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
And you suggesting they're infallible, and then when they do
fail inevitably because all of us do, they feel the
pressure so greatly because you've suggested.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
That in yeah, well, fun times. But also appreciate community
online love because I feel like with every even though
and you know what, Jay's taught me this a lot.
He gets a lot of hate, he has since the
moment he started, as most people do. But he always
chooses to every time I come to him and I'm like,

(01:02:19):
this has upset me that people are saying this about you,
or this is upset me that people are saying this
about me or about this person or about that. He
just says, if you allow the hate to be louder,
it will be louder. Like if you allow to only
listen yourself to listen to that, you're always going to
feel that way. So you have a choice every single
time you do.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Ja It's easier said than.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
But he lives and he really does, and that's what
he actually lives it. I'm like, aren't you upset that
these people are saying this? And he's like no, because
I've got all these other people who who are so
appreciative and who love me and who actually care. And
I'm like, wow, that is It's such a beautiful mindset.
I'm very difficult to have, very difficult, but to practice
every single day to do that. And what you're saying

(01:03:03):
about being grateful, I feel like you can feel the
using of gratitude through you every single day. But again,
that's a practice and I've had to do that too,
where I have negative thoughts that come into my mind constantly,
but at least I try. I'm like, you know what,
I look in the mirror and I'll be like, this
doesn't look that great, But at least I'm walking today.
I try and balance at some point.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Even if you're not able to stay positive one hundred
percent of the home, which no one can, at least
try and have a balancing effect on your mind.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
I try, I really do. This is so American, but
I try to offer myself positive affirmations every day.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Can you give me one that you like?

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, Well, it's a practice that I've been doing first actually,
so the show came out and a lot of not
so nice comments about me. When you are in a
boy bad or a girl group, people are gonna pit
you against each other. Oh for sure, They're going to
rank you. Who's the heart one, who's the most vocable one,

(01:04:00):
who's the dog of the group. And I was like,
oh yay, I love that you all put me at
the bottom of the list for every damn list. And
so it really really affected me. The first few months
really affected me, and so I tried to do I
tried to just one morning, I was like, what do
I like about myself? Forget what everybody else is commenting
on about me? What do I like about myself? And

(01:04:23):
then after and I felt better that day, and I
was like, I'm going to do this every day. So
every day when I'm brushing my teeth in the morning,
I tell myself the things I like about me. And
I'm not talking about my physical appearance. Yes sometimes there is.
I always say I'm grateful for my hair, so grateful
love my hair, my hair, But everything else is personality
traits that I'm grateful for. Yes, sometimes I'm sassy, but

(01:04:44):
I like that about me. If someone throws shade my way,
I'm the first one to throw it back, and I
like that about me. If I see in justice, on
the first one to say, no, bitch, you can't do that.
And I like that about me. And so I just think,
why should Why shouldn't I appreciate the things that I
think of our people? People We're gonna get knocked down
all day every day I do all day every day

(01:05:05):
on social media. I just think, Okay, you think that,
But I know I started my day knowing for a
fact that these things about me are good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Yeah. And I think when you can stay solid in
your own value for yourself, it can stop anybody else
penetrating your mind about you. But I do think that
gratitude practice has to be in place, and it has
to be a daily thing, because if you don't feel
gratitude for yourself, you can't expect other people to even
feel gratitude for you because you don't feel it. And
what you give out is what everybody else is gonna

(01:05:34):
you're gonna receive back to you. It's just the energetic
way that the world works. And so making sure that
you're taking that time to do that for yourself is
so important.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
You know, when you get a server or a customer
service process, it's just vestable. I used to work in
customer service. I did it for years. I worked at
a course and for years I worked in retail. For years,
I eat no matter how bad my day was, what
was going on in my life, I just thought, that's
not their fault. Yeah, I'm just gonna suck it up
and say please and thank you. If nothing else my

(01:06:06):
please and thank you. So when someone even now, and
I try really hard to beat Tan France all the time,
but sometimes he turns after and Tan Saft does rough
and I can't let him go sometimes. But yeah, when
someone's rude. My husband finds it very funny that even
still I can't not handle that situation. But I do
it in a very pleasant way. I will say, if

(01:06:27):
someone's just giving the worst service.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
You're right, mart.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
I will always say, oh sorry, have I done something
to offend you? And it's the way now that I
deal with it, because then it makes it very clear
to the person you're behaving wildly inappropriately, and thankfully it
seems to stop them in the tracks and like, oh no, sorry,
I'm doing this where I'm going through a bad day. Okay,
I'm really sorry, going through a bad day. Let's work
through this. Let's get this done together yet, and then

(01:06:52):
we can be done. It's such a nice way to
counterbalance someone's shitty behavior. Have I done something to offend.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
I'm going to use that from now on? Have I
done something to offend you?

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Because I make it really clear. I know I'm not
doing anything to you. I've said hi, I've asked you
how your day was, and you're like, what can I
get you? It's something wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Yes, it's something wrong. Are you okay? And I think
asking it from a genuine perspective as well, because it
helps them to reflect on how they're feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
And also being self aware, thinking shit, maybe I did
do something.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
But if that thing that is offensive is that I'm
brown and gate, I can't then I can't help you.
That's your problem.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
We're fab I have some rapid fire questions for Okay,
what are you reading right now? If anything?

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
Oh my god, this sounds so lame.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Please tell me. I need to know.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
It's the Hunger Games, that the one that's about to
come out. I forgot what it's called. Ballad of Snakes
and something.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
I love Hunger Games.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
I love that. I know it's a teenager's book, but
me and my sister loved it so many times. And
now I'm reading the prequel so I can watch.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
The movie and if you don't, okay, I need to
do that because I absolutely love Hunger Game. I'm so
excited for it be coming out.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
I can't believe that they've gotten you when i've you
know me too?

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
Okay? Great, something you value now that you didn't before.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
My brown skin. I'm not even kidding. I think it's
beautiful and I'm so grateful for it. And part of
the reason why I know this is rapid fire, but
partly is because I see my brown kids and I
just think you are gorgeous and I feel no shame
in that my kids are brown, and I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Can I tell us your Tan France?

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Now? What we do?

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Your name before? Okay? And how did you This is
a part of my rapid fire. But how did you
decide whether you take your husband's name or the other
way around? I need to know because it's illegally.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
Actually legally, we both are. I'm Tan saft France. His
rob safter Frances we just talked to each other.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Oh lovely. Okay, that's a nice that's a nice balance.
I feel like a lot of Indian society needs to
learn that, I know something you used to value but
don't anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Oh gosh, that's a good one. Being the most popular.
I used to think it was so important and I
was desperate for it as a kid. Yeah, and now
it doesn't matter. Also being cool, yes, oh my god,
I wanted to be cool. I was so not cool.
I was so I was deep because I wasn't smart,

(01:09:12):
but I was just not cool. And even now, somebody
called me my husband recently and I was like, I'm
not and I don't care that. I've got much bigger
issues than being cool. That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
I was thinking about mine for this one, and I
think it's being young in the sense of chasing youth
is no longer something that I and it's something that
I'm actively trying not to do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
I wish I was there with you, and it's just
because of my kids. I really miss oh, I really
missed a non achy back like I was so active,
and I really miss just not having needs at a
dodgy Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
No, So I think physically I think I was thinking
a bit more from living in LA from an esthetic
point of Oh yeah, chasing youth is something that I'm
really working on not doing because I think it's it's
it's a recipe for failure to constantly keep chasing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
However, I'm sorry I have to combat this. Please. I
think that you come from a place of privilege, which
is why you get to say that you are, as
I say in my culture, Marshella beautiful. But also you
have brown skin that doesn't age the way white skin.
We are lucky. And this is not a dig at
white folks. We are lucky. We are privileged that we
have brown skin that doesn't age the way there's does it.

(01:10:26):
And I'm not saying that they shouldn't celebrate the fact
that they are aging, and they should celebrate that they
had their youth and now they've moved on. That's wonderful.
But we have the luxury of skin that doesn't age.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Asks get fine one to be fair current fashion trend.
No knows that you're seeing, This.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
Is my honest answer. There really aren't no knows. Everyone.
If you can make it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
Work, you've seen something for you, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
There's always crocks, for sure, there's always crocks or like,
I hate them so much and I don't care if
Valencia I got a good I don't get who collapsed
away ugly, but almost even if it's something that I
wouldn't wear, if somebody's wearing it and they've started out
of like, you look wicked, I wouldn't wear it, but
you look wicked.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Yeah, But no crops. Okay, people, no crocs. You have
such amazing skin. Talking about skin, that's nice, brilliant skin,
and I think a lot of men could really benefit
from knowing what your skincare routine is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Okay, me with it. I love talking about this. I'm
so glad you asked.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Okay, including Ja, he's looking for a new skin care routine.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
So I'm going to I'm going to give you something
that is so, in my opinion, incredible, and it's a
homemade remedy, so easy. Fire a yogurt or just any yogurt,
not Greek yagat, really sick. So you get a cop
of that and then a green tea tea bag. I
use Taso used what evergreen tea you want it, don't care.

(01:11:46):
Steep the tea bag for a minute. In boiling water
just to soften up the leaves. Leaves, take take them
out of the tea bag and put them in the yogurt.
Mix it up. Keep it there for five minutes or so.
Put as watch on as you're on your face, as
where you can't see your skin anymore. So obviously around
your eyes. Don't put it around you Ryse, but everybody else,

(01:12:06):
but as if you were miss doubt. You know that's yeah,
love is that vire, that level of thickness on your face.
Keep it on for I keep it on fifteen twenty minutes.
Because I don't have really sensitive skin. Some people say
that they can only put it on five ten minutes. Great,
do that once or twice a week. It is gonna change.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
I need to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
Oh my gosh. I've been doing this since I was twenty,
and I think it's the reason why I don't break
out very often and why I have somewhat youthful skin.
I have forty, and I think my skin's pretty solid
for a forty old.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Really is any of the products that you use the.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Yeah, there's a couple of one. So my face cleanser
is a brand called Tata Harp. I'm not sponsored by
these comples anyway. Tatar Harper their face walk cleanser I
think is the best. It's all natural and it's incredible,
happen love. And then my couple of face creams, the
Quench by a company called Beauty Bio. That's the cream
I use at night and it's killer. And then the
ones I use in the daytime are Dr Stam Okay,

(01:12:57):
Drs Sam I think is the best day cream.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
Okay, goot, Yeah, I'm going to all of this, but
please try the thing, and I need to know. I
will try. And I love skin. Skincare is something I
love because I don't do makeup, and so skincare is
my ghost. I love trying new things. I love home
home remedies, So I will try. What emotion do you
find difficult to deal with? And why?

Speaker 1 (01:13:21):
I really really struggle with guilt. I really struggle with it,
and I try and fight it by convincing myself that
I didn't do anything wrong, and that always leads me
to tears. So guilt just just leaning in and accepting
that I should feel guilty about it. It's okay to
feel guilty about it, but then posts and don't make
that mistake again, But it's much easier said than done.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Yes, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
Every time I start again from zero, I have.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
I can resonate with that. My guilt, a lot of
it on a daily basis, comes from not being with
my family and as they're getting older, and so the
only way I've managed to really not let that take
over and not make me cry every day is through actions.
So I always try plannings. So whether it's planning our
family holidays or whether it's thinking about putting our family

(01:14:08):
albums together, like it's such little things. But because I
can't actually change the situation and I'm not in a
place where I want to, I have to turn those
feelings into some sort of something that's actionable. So that's
helped me. When it was the last time you had
a really good cry.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
Oh gosh, Friday, we're on no is it st Day?

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
Saturday?

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Thursday, I had a really really good cry.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
If you had to say three no one sentence of
the key to being happy, what.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
Would you say, Surround yourself with people that you love,
respect and want the best for you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
And Okay, I have this thing where I have categorized
the type of crier that one can be so there
is a loud, ugly crier where it's just the breathless
that's something, okay, the sniffler and snutty where there's water
coming out from every hole, okay, cool, the high pitched which.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
Is okay, mind's a cover of those two.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
That I'm not crying your crying cry, I have something
in my eye, never will admit they're crying. And then
the silent cry that runs to the bathroom. You come
back and you have absolutely they're the dramatic. The people
who are actors. They can just really beautifully cry and
have nothing ugly about it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
No, okay, I have been guilty many times on television,
but not it hasn't made television of going to the
bathroom to have a cry in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
Okay, So you which one would you say you're most like?

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
I am the two of them. I'm the everywhere, but
I'm also very high pitched at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
Yeah, okay, I can see that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
But that's my most comment. But that's in real life.
But when I'm filming a show, I'm running away, it's
very rare crime camera, it's very rare allowing and you
know you got me if I did.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Yeah, thank you, Thank you so much for everything, Thank
you for sharing so much of yourself with us and
for everything that you do. And I just want you
to know that you really brian up my day on
social media when you do post, and just seeing you
whenever I do is such a pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):
Thank you so much. Thanks, it was so good to
be here, kind of telling you actually asked great questions course,
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:21):
I was really nervous to have you on.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
You know what, I'm not even kidding when I say
I've probably done about two thousand interviews within the last
seven years, and so often I say in an interview,
thinking that's been the same thing I've been asked a
thousand times. Why I asked me this again? Thank you
so much for you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Thanks

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Tan France: Your Past Doesn't Define You - How To Find Strength to Break Barriers and Be Yourself

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Tan France: Your Past Doesn't Define You - How To Find Strength to Break Barriers and Be Yourself