August 13, 2019 • 43 mins
He’s a legendary criminal profiler and the inspiration behind the hit Netflix series, “Mindhunter.” John Douglas has sat across the table from some of the most notoriously evil killers of our time from Charles Manson to the Son of Sam. He’s interviewed several hundred violent offenders and personally investigated or supervised over 5,000 violent crime investigations. In this interview, Douglas reveals his unique insight into his profiling process and explains how he’s helped identify and capture some of America’s most depraved minds and dangerous criminals.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
With all these different kind of killers. The fantasy is
something that uh they are the writer, that the producer,
their their director, the actor, and it's perfect. The fantasy
is always perfect, but the crime is never never works
out it that way, So there's never this satisfaction for
the perfect crime, and so the beat goes on it
(00:20):
looking for more and the look for more victims. Hi,
(00:46):
I'm Dr Oz and this is the Doctor Oz Podcast.
He's a legendary criminal profiler and the inspiration behind the
hit Netflix series mind Hunter, one of my favorite shows
on television, Say just saying. John Douglas has sat across
the table from some of the most notoriously evil killers
of our time, Charles Manson, son of Sam even b
(01:07):
t K buying torture kills what it stands for. He's
interviewed several hundred violent offenders and personally investigator or supervised
over five thousand violent crime investigations. With true crime being
so popular in America today, I think it's pretty cool
we have one of the fathers of its investigative elements
with us today. John's here reveals unique insight into his
profiling process and to explain how he's helped to identifying
(01:30):
capture some of America's most deprived minds and dangerous criminals.
So I gotta start off. I was so spell bound
by this NEXTFLI show mine hunter the whole idea that
we didn't know about criminal profiling that much anyway at
this time. And just to set up real quickly, everybody,
they always were looking for the motive, right, and the
motive was you hate the husband, or yeah, you're trying
(01:50):
to steal money, right, the obvious motives. But these guys
that you're talking about have different kinds of motives. What
got you into this, Well, it got me into it
was I was a very young age when I was
recruited by the Bureau out of the Air Force at
twenty five years of age. UH then went back to Quantico.
Then it was assigned to the Detroit office. And I
was always interested in in trying to understand if I'm
(02:13):
arresting a fugitive, I want to know where he went.
Was there anything I could see in his background that
would help us apprehend him sooner? But it was Super
Bowl Sunday in nineteen seventy two, and were Gould arrest
a couple hundred guys in Detroit organized crime figures hit men.
And I was going to arrest three that day and
again twenty five and one of the first people I
(02:36):
arrested looked like Paul Newman, a nice, good looking guy.
And I got him in the car and I always
like to talk. I like to talk and learn. I
want to learn from them. And I had him cuffed
and I said, Frank, Man, I said, what's with you.
Every couple of years, it seems like we're arresting you
the state police, there's arresting you local, the local police
and uh and he says, man, he says, you don't
(02:58):
get a kid. I said, what are you talking about?
It was raining that day and he looks over to
the right side of the pane of glass and he said,
you see those two rain drops over there? I said,
what about it? He says, I bet you the one
on the left gets down to the pain and glass
before the one on the right. So I said, okay,
let's go, man, I'll bet you in the back. So
so sure enough he wins. Is his uh the rain
(03:20):
drop race? And he says, you see what is who?
I'm talking about? Kids? And and that's why he beat
me in a rain drop Razor right, And he said no, man,
he says, look, we don't need a Super Bowl. All
we need are two rain drops. We are who we are,
and you are not going to change, is Douglas. You're
not gonna change, is the f B. I I don't
care who you're talking about. It's within us. It's it's
(03:43):
it's within you know, our brain, our soul, the thrill
seeking right, and and the uh and it was just
something they just uh, it's still seeking and it's power
that they have and uh and the control they have
over others. And so I always wondered, because I was
(04:03):
interested in the behavioral science, if I could I get
back to Quantico, would I be able to apply this to,
you know, to violent offenders. So when I came back,
now it's thirty two years of age I had. I
was a SWAT team member of Sniper, on the SWAT
team of hostage Negotiator. I already had a couple of
advanced degrees. It was beginning a doctorate, uh degree. And
I went back and I sat back the class and
(04:25):
just like in the Mine Hunter series, was auditing and
I see these instructors. They're older than me, but they're
getting their facts wrong, and the the students are challenging them.
They're challenging their facts. Hey, man, I work the case.
I worked the case. You got your wrong. So I'm
thinking I'm supposed to be auditing these guys. I'm gonna
be up in front of this class, you know pretty soon.
(04:48):
What can I do to accelerate my my learning? So
we had these rose schools in those days. Two weeks
at a time. You're on the road. You could be
a week in boys the Idaho. Then you go on
to like l A l A and and a yell
a school because it was just road schools, a term
that we used in the FBI. You're gonna go out
and teach you rather teach a quantico. Now we're gonna
we're gonna send send you out there, and you're gonna
(05:10):
go to the local academies, police academies. So I told
my partner, I said, let's go into the penitentiary. Let's
see if these people will talk to us. Let's see
if if uh, Charles Manson or you know ed Kemper
or Sir hands her hand or you know James are
already if they'll they'll talk. Is that you're crazy, man,
you're crazy, you know, let's see, these guys are probably
(05:31):
bored and whatever. So I went in. I started going
into the penitentiary. You didn't ask for bureau permission. When
the bureau found out about what the hell are you
doing going in doing these kind of interviews? Uh, you know,
it was that part of the story is true. I
thought they may that's all true. So you know, you
were doing this. I saw a lot of and we
saw my office in the basement sixty My office was
(05:52):
sixty ft underground, ten times deeper than dead people always
tells you there was sixty sixty ft under so, so
that's exact, exactly true. You know, what what are you
doing doing that? You know, you know, just it should
be like just like drag Net or or whatever. So
and then and then we uh uh teamed up with
(06:12):
Dr Anne Burgess, who's the Wendy character in the Mine
Hunter of Chiefs Unversity professor right, and she's but she's
a uh, she's a forensic nurse. She's not a psychologist.
And she didn't teach us how to know how to
do the interviews in these interrogations whatever we were doing,
but she helped us develop this computerized instrument of fifty
seven page a computerized instrument. We did it as a
(06:34):
as a team, covering the victim, covering the crime, uh,
the offender, the pre offense behavior, post offense behavior, criminal history,
all these all these different things. And and that's what
she did. But I didn't ask her, how should I
go interview Manson? And then now we got finally got approval,
We got the grants. Like they they're showing on on television.
The backstory is different, Dr Oz. The backstory when I
(06:57):
came back, had married, had one one child. And this
is really kind of funny because because my wife's meent
a school teacher for forty seven years, and I live
in Fredericksburg, small small community, and we're watching the first
the first show because we had hadn't seen it, and
but the first show is a little violent to set
by second show. There's some sex in the uh you know,
(07:19):
in one of the and she's trying to teach teach
him something. Is that is that supposed to be me?
My wife sells me. I said, well, sure as hells
in me. This is the Hollywood. I've seen this part here,
you know, in the show. It's not you know, it's
like me, oh yeah, this is embarrassing my living a school.
Yeah I know, yeah yeah. So so we uh started,
(07:43):
you know, started doing the interviews, and then the cases
started rolling in. So I got the first year was
like fifty and cops are coming in and now you're
you're starting to be like Ef Hutton when you talk.
People are listening and a young, young, young guy, you know,
full full of digger here and so so the case
are coming and then every year they started fifty. Now
(08:03):
it's a hundred hundred and fifty by the time I
retired a thousand cases. But meanwhile, what's happened to me?
And you saw it in the mind not the show
is is Kemper grab Kemper never grab grabbed me, uh
like that, But what was happening to me? So Kemper
six nine, huge person and he lifts up. The character
(08:25):
is playing you and you feel the fear of having
someone like that control you. Until then, Kemper has been
this incredibly charismatic, kindly guy that you sit down had
the infected cops that were who arrested him couldn't believe
it was him because they're all friends with the personal friends.
So back to the reality. Yeah, so I forgot where
it was where going. He didn't really grab you, like, no,
he didn't know it right, he didn't grab me. But
(08:46):
what was happening? Uh you know to me, I was
beginning to get burned out. I was getting burned out
in the job I was. It was the nature of
the work, and then the volume of the work, and
then dealing with the victim was us In some cases,
like in the current book The Kill across the Table
with a mother Mrs Deleasandra wants me to go through
(09:07):
all the details of what what happened to her daughter,
How was her daughter killed? Did my daughter fight? Uh?
Tell me about the bruising and all that, and it
is emotionally uh devastating for me. And so here I
was up in New York City in in in uh
nineteen eighty three. I was in here up here in
Novemba training several hundred police from all over the area.
(09:28):
And during my presentation, I thought I was having a
heart attack. I thought, I'm thinking of these cases I
gotta do. I just came back from England on New
Yorkshire River. Case I gotta go up to Alaska where
a man named Hansen is abducting women and flying them
up in the wild and stripping him down naked and
hunting him down like wild animals. I gotta deal with that.
(09:48):
I gotta deal with the Green River murder case and
just other cases you don't even know about. I had
this anxiety attack and I'm thinking, oh, man, you know,
regroup dogs. Many group regroup and no one probably caught it.
I was able to regroup, came back to Quantico, took
out income protection insurance, more life insurance. I thought, at
thirty eight, maybe dying here. And the day I leave
(10:10):
to go to Seattle to train some of these young
agents who they assigned to me to train, I go
second by my wife twice. I go out there and
tremendous pain in the right side of my head, and um,
I tell the agent I think I'm getting the flu
I think I think I'm getting fluid. So look, this
is what you have to do. It's Tuesday. I'll see
(10:32):
a fraud and he will head back to Washington, d C.
That night. That night, I just the last thing I remember.
I'm falling and I'm collapsing and my head hits the
floor and I hav to not disturb sign on the hotel.
We spent a couple of days there. I spent several
days on the floor. When he kicked down the door.
My heartbeat was too twenty. My body temperature was a
(10:52):
hundred and seven. So and they said when they took
me the emergency and right temple over was bleeding and
every every couple Lemisi said, my body just started shaking, shaking, trembling.
It was diagnosed as violencephalitis. But they said my immune
system was just so low. There's lots more will be
come back. Yeah, while you're trying to crack these cases,
(11:23):
you're on death's door for a while. It takes you
out of So how did they five months? I was,
how did that change you? You went from being the
nation's premier profiler to someone who faced death and come back.
It made me, Uh, it made me a good leader
for the people that we're gonna be working for me,
because when I began to see signs of burnout for them,
(11:44):
I went to stress psychologists and and I would I
see that, I would let them. I would break FBI
rules and let them, you know, let them go go home.
And it was always a battle of for me to
balance my life. I would actually it sounds kind of more.
But I would go to the cemetery, It's a veteran
cemetery where I was going to be buried on that day,
(12:05):
just to kind of look around to see who my who,
my neighbors would have been here. And so anytime I
start where I can no longer balance the life where
you're struggling, you know, I was trying to. I was
running to the point of exhaustion, as you know, drinking
you know, too much, and I come home, you try
to decompress, to go to a room and before you
(12:26):
can meet the children. It does affect your personally, your
interaction with your family. I'd be lying to you if
I say, you're in bed with your wife and and
some amorous uh you know thing you perhaps are gonna do.
And but you just that day you're working some vicious
LUSS murder case. It affects it affects you and you
wake up you met nightmares from this. So how do
(12:49):
you process all of that? I mean, is there there
is there an in like in the FBI therapist who
you met, Yeah, I went to I went to and
they said I was burning the candle at both ends
and that uh again with with the balance. You see what.
But it's than that, because if the moment has burned
(13:10):
scandal at both ends, the surgeon is curgein. We're working
really hard many hours a day, but he's not confronted
by the darkness that I mean, that side of humanity
that most of us try to avoid to pursue that
for a second, I think you answer this in this context,
what makes a killer? Is evil? Real? This true evil
exists because that would be the thing that would keep
(13:31):
me up at night, that would mess me up from
getting back engaged with my kids if I had faced
something that I thought was all around us. That means
we're all at risk. Yeah, it's almost tell about a
nature nurture type of type of thing too, I mean people,
But I don't I just don't believe there's an evil genetic,
a gene. I think I think they're certain things we
know are inherited addiction, a piece of behavior. Right, These
(13:54):
people that you interviewed, the Kemper's in the case, were
they made evil? Yes they were. They came from and
even in here and in the book The Killer Across
the Table by the Way, a wonderful book that John
wrote with them mar Mark Olschker. Yeah, so they you
see this in the background. I've got one of the guys,
one of the guys in here. He was the guy
in two two years ago that they rescued a woman
(14:17):
and storage container in South Carolina, and uh, I got
to interview him in depth and he when he was
fifteen year ape to fourteen year old girl. But his
background is classic, and he wants me to tell him
about you know, why why do I do the things
that I did? He killed four people in a motorcycle
shop in case. I was down speaking at a university
and the cops came up and I did an analysis,
(14:39):
and then they didn't take my analysis. They should have
because I told him the killer is a disgruntled customer,
and he's in the files and he rather focused in
on a guy who found the bodies. That his behavior, uh,
you know, it was weird. But he's asking me to
tell him about his background. So your background is very
very typical. Uh, it doesn't surprise me what happened. You
were born into the world. Your mother really didn't want
(15:01):
anything to do with you. She abandoned you, She was
running around with other men. You're you know how a
family member that was sexually abusing you as well. Your
dad want nothing to do biological dad, so that your
parents you break up. Mother remarries, remarries. You go out
to visit your biological dad and temp Arizona and he
(15:23):
you don't have much of relationship. So at fifteen years
of age, you rate a fourteen year old girl and
you get They send you not to a juvenile prison,
they send you to to a man's prison for fifteen years,
thirty years. And you're a smart guy, Todd, and you
go back. You go back to South Carolina where you
pick up. You pick up two degrees. You pick up
(15:45):
a real estate license or broker's license. You end up
owning a real estate company. You also have a private
pilace license. But you've got this one problem. If someone
does you wrong, you gotta retaliate. And just like you
retaliated to the people that's so you that motorcycle. Uh
you know in two thousand and two, you waited months
and months and months. You were angry with them. He goes,
(16:07):
you crashed that motorcycle because you did not ride the motorcycle.
And you also found out that in your belief that
they stole that motorcycle because it was a chop shop
and you wanted revenge. But you waited and waited and waited,
and then you went in to stay, and you went
in and you killed four people for people. And his
name was in the indiceas and the file stopped and
(16:29):
he would have found out he was a registered sex offender,
has a criminal this criminal history here, and he went
on to kill and then he went on to to
abduct this girl and when police rescued her in the
storage container. So the backgrounds you and I said, I
don't I did not figure. I don't give you you
I know what happened. But you it's free will, and
(16:50):
you were able to make these choices. You made the
wrong choices, but you you knew right from wrong. You
knew the nature and consequences of your actions. And you
screwed up. Todd, you screw up, and now you gotta
you gotta pay. But smart guy, really smart smart individuals.
Like there's a sexual element, some kind of sexual abuse
or at least dysfunction in a lot of these cases.
(17:11):
Is that yes, there's always right, there's always some type
of the other guy in here. Donald Harvey, who kill
close to a hundred of hospital patients as in orderly,
in fact, just the other day. And if you saw
it in Germany, Yeah, a nurse, a nurse to the
same thing Harvey did here once. Nurses you know, they're
they're the only ones there with the patient of two
(17:32):
in the morning. They can inject you with all kinds
of things. Plus you don't you see, we typically we
deal with predators. You don't like the bun days to
go out and the hunt, but here here you don't.
You don't have to do the hunting. Your your victims
are right there, right, that's right. And so that they're there,
they can kill him. They won't do autopsies on him
because he died at of old age, even though he's
(17:52):
maybe giving him more morphine than it easy, that cyanide
NASA guy. So what happened to in in the U. S.
Durses case? What made him a evil genius? With with him?
And he was really carrismat He was a real charasmat.
A lot of these guys are the real charismatic. I
make him real comfortable so they feel comfortable, you know
with me. But he was he came into this world.
(18:14):
He was he was pretty smart, uh smart he was
smart in school, but he was sexually assaulted when he
was four years of age by an uncle, and then
sexually assaulted by a neighbor, and and then interesting with him.
He would later then pretty much extort them to get
things out of them. He'll have to continue the sex
as he got older. But he's gonna black. He's gonna black,
(18:36):
you know, mail him. But the thing about it with
the first killing, he went in this service and and um,
he attempted suicide. Uh, and they released them. He goes
working works in the hospital and the first person who
he kills, and he all loved him. He thought he
was the greatest guy in the world. He's there to
change the betting and the and the patian defecated in bed.
(18:58):
As he reaches in to clean and change the sheets,
the patient push his feces in in his h in
his face. So what what he will say is, you know,
he got angry at the patient and all this, and
he and he says, well, they should have known that
they shouldn't have put me there. So he kills her,
and he's calling himself. He kills him. He calls himself
(19:20):
the angel of death. And I said, wait, Paul I said, uh, Harvey,
I said, this is an angel and death. This is
not a mercy mercy killing. He's not a mercy killing.
You you put a catheter into this uh you know,
into this man, and then after you put the catherine,
then you got a close hanger which is straightened out,
and you ran that that coute hanger through that catheter
(19:40):
and this man, you know, bled to death. Well yeah,
he said, yeah, that's yeah, that's not really a mercy.
And then you killed some neighbors that that you didn't like.
You were poisoning, poisoning them. And you have then poisoning
your your boyfriends. He was running around with guys in
the park on Monday's and you decided on Sundays you'll
start poisoning him something he won't run around in parks.
And they said, oh, yeah, you're you're right, and and
(20:02):
he's just very But it's interesting the way they talk.
It's just it's just so nonchalant. There's no remorse. Uh,
there's no people the cortex dysfunction, there's no trauma. I
mean people who have head edges. Well, he was dropped
on his head a couple of times as a kid.
He was he was dropping is there a part of
it because they don't seem to you. You're having this
(20:24):
very matter of fact discussion. I can't imagine having this
discussion like that with anybody. But right, but you're commenting on, well,
you killed him, but really wasn't a mercy killing. I
mean that's not discussions we normally had. There's something a
little wrong there. Yeah, oh yeah, there's there's something. There's
something wrong there. I mean, but they're not insane, you know,
they know this premeditation there that he was trained in
(20:45):
the morgue he got he end up having relations with
uh the technician is more in the morgue, and and
the mortician was telling him how how if you kill
people you put plasks that don't don't use just just
a sheet because you know the fibers will show up.
You know, I'll be certain marks, So put a plastic
on there first. Then you can put the you can
(21:07):
put a pillow over the face. And he was having
on affair with him, so he was ridiculous. Uh. Interesting,
But I did that interview with MSNBC. MSNBC, I came
to New York. They weren't happy with my interview interview
with him or this other guy, Condro who killed his
friends children and what they did, I think what they
were surprised at. And I've seen some other shows where
(21:29):
the guy like me, they'll come in like real hard nose,
tough guy with you like growling kind of kind of face.
I'm not that way. I'm not I'm not that way
at all. And so I'm I'm asking, like, for example, Harvey,
about animal torturing, because it's one of the things we
find is that it's a pretty good, pretty good predictor
when you start saying acting out animal cruelty. Uh, you're
(21:53):
torturing of animals, picking out something weak and vulnerable, vulnerable,
and then later on they progressed week and vulnerable. You know,
they'll go to vulnerable people, drug addicts, prostitutes, elderly you know,
you know elderly, you know people here. But uh, it
was what they didn't like about me was that I
would I would kind of smile with him, like I asked, Harvey,
you know what old did you kill? He said, well,
(22:15):
I killed this I killed this chicken. And uh and
and uh, well that's what I was. You're you're on
a farm, says he says, Yeah. But but but this
this chicken here. My mother really liked this chicken. I
didn't didn't. Uh, then she didn't really didn't want me
to have it. I really wanted, so I I killed.
I killed it, and then I killed a couple of cows.
(22:37):
My why why did you that in a neighbor's cows?
I said, because I was angry with this guy. So
I cut his throat a couple of times, a couple
of times, and then killed a few of his cows.
And he says, well, that's all I did. And so
I smiled, and I said, that's that's more than most
of us. I said, that's so. So the MSNBC sees
me smiling, they think I got to be in this
(22:58):
guy's face. And and uh and the same thing when
any of you conjure this guy was killing his friends children,
like like us O B. You know you they want
to execute you know, I'm trying to get information I need.
And when you do an interview to you, there's sometimes
you go go on an interview you only want to
(23:19):
know one thing. There's one main thing, because you kind
of know the case. I go in there well prepared,
no notes, no no tape recorders, like they're they're showing.
I want I want to maintain eye contact with dealing
with paranoid individuals that who they don't trust necessarily you
what are you doing with the notes? What are you
doing with the tape recorder? I don't I don't trust
(23:40):
the correction So I go in there pretty well. But
you know, you know vers uh, you know, you know
on the case and know the case pretty much. Uh,
you know backwards, you know, you know, and forwards, and
they didn't. They did not like you said, you want
one question answered, yeah, well one question, okay, Like Dennis Raider,
the BTK strangler, who worked and interviewed him, Dennis, why
(24:03):
did you stop? Why did you stop for years at
a time, because we in law enforcement think that maybe
they moved on to another uh another city, maybe they're incarcerated,
and maybe they died. And what happened? He said, well,
on this day I came home. He was a compliance
officer another thing, a lot of a police buff so
he could wear a badge. They love that stuff and
complying still officer in fences, infringing on your neighbor's property,
(24:27):
move it, you know your grass is too high? Cut
it the type of thing. So I come home this
day and he was into cross dressing with with his
victim's clothing, and he was also into into UH auto eroticism, strangling, strangling, strangling,
and UH had a mask he would wear a woman
that he painted eyebrows, eyes, and a mouth, lipstick and hair,
(24:51):
was wearing, was wearing that. When his wife comes walking in,
What the hell is this? You know what? So I
got a problem, He says, you damn right, you got
a problem. His wife's thought, you know what what that
was going on? I just she didn't put two in
two together. Knowing that he was the b t K strangler.
She calls the v A Center to say, look, I
have this friend whose husband is doing this. What does
(25:12):
that mean? So they explained to her what what that means.
And you know, maybe something held kill whoever this person is.
Well we'll get over this. Well that's what scared him,
he said, John, That's what scared him. So I stopped.
But then I went back the killing again. And then
she caught me again another time wearing victims dresses and
doing this cross dressing stuff, and uh, I stopped. I stopped. Well,
(25:34):
how when did you finally surface again? Because then you
went under for a lot of years. Well, when there
was a guy in Wichita it was going to write
a book. If anybody's going to write a book about me,
it's gonna be me. So how hell you get to
publish his book? What do you he says? He says,
I'll bury this book. That may one day, a hundred
years from now, someone will realize that Dennis Raider was
the B T K strangler. He was just lucky too.
(25:55):
He wasn't smart, He had just a hundred i Q
but stupid. He he starts communicating with the police and
hells the police, and they're going back and forth with
the newspaper through codes. If and he tells, them, uh,
if I seen you a floppy disk, will you be
able to trace this floppy disk? You know? Back to me?
The police, what are they gonna say? Of course, we
(26:16):
can't do something that's way too sophisticated. All right, So
incomes the floppy disk and they get this. The computer
guys all around, you know, they're ready. You have to
do this. All the scientific stuff too difficult. No, you
don't have to be we can do it. Uh. Comes
in he's sticking in the computer up pops Christ Lutheran Church,
Dennis Rader, president of the you know of the church
(26:38):
the zero win on. Interesting what they did they were
able to you know, they don't have we have DNA
from a murderch he did of this family or Terrell
family venty nine and UH and one of the victims
he when he was really after a young girl, brought
down to the basement, tied her up and he uh
masturbated on her. So we had we have DNA on
(26:59):
that case, say from nineteen seventy nine. Or the police do.
What they do is they go to the UH to
Kansas State University to find out where his daughter went
to school. She went there, and they go into the
clinic where she had a PAP smere don And I
didn't realize this. They hang onto those UH for for
years and years apparently you don't know, and they got
(27:20):
they got the DNA and so what so all we
can after he they listened to and listen to him.
All we can tell you, Dennis, is that the father
of your daughter is the B T K strangler. That
your daughter's father is a B T K strangler. And
he looks at that and he hears that. He says, okay,
so then he proceeds to talk and he just spills
(27:43):
his guts. He doesn't care what uh a thing about
the victims. What I didn't like about the case was
when the prosecutor she wanted to make a name for
herself and he plea bargained and so they really didn't
have to have him go to court to go through.
All he had to do is say, us, I killed
this person. But she made him go through every case
and at all the specific details, which he loved. He
(28:06):
loved going through all these cases over and over again
because it's inadequate. Nobody was finally as somebody you know
in his life, and what is your motivation? What is
it about? And I had an idea what it was.
He says, it's all about the rope, John, And what
he meant was is that with the rope he was binding.
Bondage was the thing. Bondage was more uh, the selection
(28:28):
of the victim, the hunt for the victim, uh, and
then and then the bondage. And of course he has
to kill uh. It is it is. And he had
all these drawings which I have, of of what he was,
what his fantasies were, and he acted the fantasies out
that he when he would draw. But the differences with
fantasy with all these different kind of killers is the
(28:51):
fantasy is something that uh. They are the writer, that
the producer, their their director, the actor, and it's perfect
the I see, he is always perfect, but the crime
is never never never works out that way. So there's
never the satisfaction that for the perfect crime. And so
the beat goes on it looking for more and they
(29:12):
look for more victims, more questions after the break. So
I got a couple of tapes if it's okay, What's
you're really good at is the actual interviews. And this
(29:32):
is so riveting to me. Just understand how you get
into because most of us get caught up in the
fact he killed twelve people, not the like I would
have never thought to ask denistrator why he stopped, But
of course that's the perfect question asked. Okay, So Charles Manson, Uh,
he's described as a showman. Uh, And I'm just curious
if he's different than how we today see him, at
(29:53):
least on television. So I'm gonna play a short clip
of one of Charles Manson's many interviews. I'm gonna listen
to what he had to say when he would ask
if he felt guilty. So let's play the clip police.
There's no need to feel guilty. I haven't done anything
I'm ashamed of. Maybe I haven't done enough. I might
be ashamed of that for not doing enough, for not
giving enough, for not being more perceptive, for not being
(30:16):
aware enough, for not understanding, for being stupid. Maybe I
should have killed four or five hundred people. Then I
would have felt better. And when I felt like I
really offered society something. Yeah, that's brings back flashbacks of
(30:37):
because he's very melodic when he when he speaks and
I and when I did the interview with him, I
made sure there was furniture in there because I knew
I'm six too, he's five too. I knew he was
going to dominate me. Because he used to be on
the George Spawn ranch and sit up on top of
the rock and preach to his followers. UH. He wasn't
(30:58):
really a big drug addict. He would take just enough
drugs just to get high, but he used drugs to
control his family, so called family. When he had sex
with the UH with the members there, he would script
them as if they're having sex with their father. A
lot of these kids who gravitated to the hate Ashbury. Uh,
we're running away from home. Their dad, the god almighty Buck,
(31:19):
you know. So, so he then took over being this
uh his father, uh figure. But he he is not
a serial killer. I know. Vincent Bugliosi was a lie.
I didn't like the comments I made about him because
I thought even if he got out, I said, he
probably if you got out of prison, he's dead down.
But if you got out of prison, this was just
a few years ago, he he wouldn't be, uh, you know,
(31:41):
committing problem. It's a big Bugliosi who wrote he was
a prosecutor in the in the case against against him,
and had the theory the help of skelter, and he
preached that Manson Preacher helda skelter which was uh, the
White Album of the Beatles, and he interpreted to that
that there's gonna be a race war, and and uh,
(32:03):
there's gonna be this race war, one by between the
blacks and the whites, one by the blacks. But we're
gonna come forward a hundred forty four thousand strong with
our dune buggies armed with machine guns, and we'll wipe
all the blacks off and then we'll you know, we'll
run the world. It really was, it really was BS.
I mean he didn't really believe this stuff, but he
really wanted with sex, drugs and rock and roll. And
(32:25):
he and he he really was close to Dennis Wilson
of the Beach Boys wanted to be in the band. Uh.
Dennis Wilson liked them because he was providing girls, you know,
girls for him. Uh he Uh what it learned, what
it learned, it's he. It was was this charismatic, uh,
individual with very experienced. He spent half of his life
(32:46):
in prison. So when he goes, they hate Ashbury. These kids,
they don't know anything about crime or anything at all.
He's able to knows how to manipulate, uh, manipulate them.
But he got them to believe so much in this
in this this white album, this stuff, this race war
type of thing. That he lost control control of the group.
Unlike uh David Koresh and the Way Go Texas. David
(33:07):
Koresh kept us people confined, confined and and we're not
able to leave the compound. Uh. The same thing with
Jim Jones and Guiana people killed that he that he
takes down in they drink the cyanide, you know, kool
ai so. But he is a master manipulator. And and
and I tried to almost kind of sound like him,
(33:29):
like the tape you just played, Uh, going in again.
We didn't have notes or anything like that. And he
sat on top of the table dominating me. The funny
part during the interviews when we're we're finished. We interviewed
him a few times over the years. Uh, he says,
you gotta give me something. You gotta give me something.
Me gotta give you something you want? What do you
want from me? He said? Those glasses, you got those
(33:52):
ray bands? I want those ray bands. What do you
want the ray band? He says, because I gotta they
know I'm now I'm talking to the FBI. I gotta
show I ripped you. You guys off, that I stole
something from you and that you're not even aware of,
so I can go back there. So so we have
to give him our glary nice rape band sunglasses. So
he could, you know, boast about it, But he didn't.
(34:13):
He it's a lack of remorse in his comments. I'm
fascinting all the background, but as you listen to him
say that there's no Yeah, there's nothing, because you see,
he is the victim. He is the victim of society.
And and uh, I think you get so you have
this really crazy kind of theories. But then some of
the stuff he's saying him and I interviewed Squeaky from
(34:34):
and Sandraw Good and interviewed them and here in West
Virginia then down to Florida, you know, prison. That thing
was the was was pollution and blue skies and and
clear water and what they're saying. I mean, I'd like
to I want blue skies and old pollution. And you know,
so some of the stuff they're saying, you know, you
agree with. It's just that, Okay, Sandy Good, you should
(34:55):
not have extorted this nuclear power plant. You screwed up there.
And Squeaky you probably shouldn't have shot at gerald Ford
and that got you in, you know, in prison. That's
that's how they ended up in prison. Uh, Squeaky's still
in prison. Sandra Good is out of prison. Is he
pretty common for these types of criminals, serial murderers, this
idea that they're a victim. And I knew you said
(35:17):
the former guy wasn't insane, but he sounds pretty insane
to me. There's there's definitely a lack of Yeah, he's yeah,
i Q was one be streets smart. He's not educated,
you know, he's educated in the prison system his whole life.
And he was, you know, he was brought into his
world as mother was a prostitute. His uh the father's
(35:39):
name was Maddox for a while, and uh, they would
force him to wear women's clothing, girl's clothing when he
when he sent him to school, and of course he
was very, very tiny. He was bullied upon and then
he started acting out again the animal cruelty, committing now
crimes of he was in burglaries and also we called
(35:59):
the Dire Act. He was still stolen cars, but he
became educated through the criminal system. So so he's just
very very you know, knowledgeable. You know, I mean called
I don't know why why because d y e er
it was stolen stolen cars and the bureau work. He's
taken across interstate car just that just the car didn't
(36:23):
sell it, you know, sell and make money, steal the
car and make it or just just simply for there
is the type. These guys are all kind of fall
into the same pattern. It looks they were all different.
Some are a little bit different, you know. And the
way they murdered David Burke Woods is more up here
in New York was more of an assassination style killing. Uh.
The the son of Sam going after girls and lovers
(36:44):
lanes were speaking of different people. Let me play one
more team. This is from Ted Bundy. Now, Ted, this
is an interview right before his execution. He's talking about
what he felt the next day after his first murder.
This is important because one of the things that John
Douglas has talked a lot about was that initial experience
of what it felt like to get started to wake
(37:05):
up in the morning and realized what I had done
and with a clear mind and all my essential moral
and ethical feelings intact at that moment, all right. Uh,
absolutely horrified that I was capable of doing something like that.
(37:28):
And he actually crazily truld messengers most people would think
of as a crazy person, although he's cacharis back to
his groups. Uh, anybody charismatic, Uh, you know, law student, handsome. Uh.
And he seems like he actually had insight into what
he had done criminally. How do you compare the two
He was able again, it was the fantasy thing with
(37:50):
him that staw out to development. He didn't. Everyone thinks
he got such a great early childhood. No, he was.
His mother had him out of wedlock and like nineteen
forties six, and in those days, you know that I
couldn't talk about stuff like that. So they sent they
sent her away, and little little do you know, he
when he was ready growing up, they told him that
(38:12):
that his mother was his sister. So he was so
that was his sister and the grandparents, his grandparents were
the ones to raise him. And later on he would
find out you know about that that that upbringing he
he was, Uh, he's he's the early childhood again. He's
still he's still somewhat different, but he's able to, he says,
(38:35):
to compartmentalize it. It It looks like, you know, he's getting
ready to be executed, you know here, and he's you
don't have it here. But he's he will blame things.
And he was speaking to his Reverend Dobbins at the time.
Uh that, uh, that pornography. Pornography was the cause of
his problems. And then then pornography was no longer satisfying,
so he had he wanted to go and act out
the things that he was. He was, uh, you know,
(38:57):
saying you know in the magazine when they called me,
they called me back to discuss this because do you
want to study him? We can keep him alive. You
want to you want to study me? Then we talked
about the pornography and he said, no, no, we we
see the pornography. The pornography, it fuels the fantasy. It's
not the cause of him to do these uh, to
(39:18):
do these things. But we pretty well have a good
handle on Mounday. We've interviewed him several times, and one
of my agents and my unit went down pretty close
to him and was with him at the point when
he got executed. And I said, but would pretty well
study study him so you can move on with you
with the execution and uh, you know, carry this thing through.
Let people want to do these interviews. They think, oh, man,
(39:39):
you really feel for this guy. I mean, this guy
and what he and the things that he did. I said,
I mean, I'm feigning empathy, you know. Here I'm trying
to get information, but I'm maybe I'm something wrong, Maybe,
I said, maybe maybe Maybe. I said, if you want
if you're looking for a volunteer to pull the switch
on this guy, Gary Hednik in Philadelphia who kept women
in the in the and in the pit of abasement
(40:02):
like in Silence of the Lambs. He was a guy interviewed. Uh.
In fact, Leslie Stall followed me in sixty minutes into
the into the prison and I coached the prosecution on
in that case. But he had women in that in
that basement. Is he would put women in there, filled
the pit up with water and get electric wire and
that we were in shackles and electrocute them. And he
killed one. And I don't know, this is pockets. I
(40:24):
guess I can say this here. He ended up putting
this victim in a in a meat grind or fed
that victim to the other victims and as well as
as the dog that he had when I interviewed him.
He doesn't care anything about that. So I was treating
the women nicely at birthday parties down there. And you
will say he's insane, right, this guy is crazy. He
(40:45):
Uh he had over six hundred thousand dollars in the
bank that he invested in the stock market, and he
had the stockbroker and testified that no. Gary Heidnick was
picking out his his own investments here. He also put
cinder blocks around the windows in the basements so no
one can hear the screams and yells and turn up
the UH, turn up the UH, the the radio, and
(41:06):
so if they start yelling, no one can, you know,
I can hear that. The only time I got to him,
and again once again it was with the mother. It
was it was the mother thing bringing that up. And
he just went nuts. He want to pull the mic
from from his shirt and lesslie stall is there and
looking at this guy, it's I've seen it so many
(41:26):
times and somebody just did it. Somebody just did a review.
You probably look on your own books. You'll see your reviews.
I shouldn't look at even the good reviews. I should
like there's a tendency to look. You want to look.
So then I saw one. I got this one. She
gave me a three. So I'm radiant and and and
she doesn't like what I have to say in there.
And the killer across the table, you're killer across the
(41:46):
table book where like I'm saying, it's a parental thing,
and more times than not, it's coming on the mother,
the mother's side here, So I had So I was
so tempted to answer, but I'm not but but but
I felt like it's saying so she gave these sample, Well,
Mrs Della Sandro should not have sent her child down
to to uh, you know, to collect money for the
box of box of cookies. Oh, so we're gonna blame
(42:09):
We're gonna blame the victims. Now, we're gonna blame the
surviving victims, not not this the teacher at the house
that she knocked, you know, on the door. So we're
gonna blame everything on Mrs On Mrs Della Sandro. In fact,
in those days you could could pretty much go, you know, go.
You should be allowed to. That's the thing about the
victor shimming. You should be allowed to whether yes, whether
you would do it or not in your family and
(42:29):
how paranoid you are, that's your own personal decision. This
isn't John Douglas unbelievable. I've enjoyed it hosting you on
the show, acknowledge, but I love hearing from the folks
who are there. Yeah, you know, if if you have
something else, come up, give me a call. The Killer
Across the Sea a wonderful book with lots of five
star ratings for what you've done. Thank you, God, bless you,
(42:52):
thank you
With all these different kind of killers. The fantasy is
something that uh they are the writer, that the producer,
their their director, the actor, and it's perfect. The fantasy
is always perfect, but the crime is never never works
out it that way, So there's never this satisfaction for
the perfect crime, and so the beat goes on it
(00:20):
looking for more and the look for more victims. Hi,
(00:46):
I'm Dr Oz and this is the Doctor Oz Podcast.
He's a legendary criminal profiler and the inspiration behind the
hit Netflix series mind Hunter, one of my favorite shows
on television, Say just saying. John Douglas has sat across
the table from some of the most notoriously evil killers
of our time, Charles Manson, son of Sam even b
(01:07):
t K buying torture kills what it stands for. He's
interviewed several hundred violent offenders and personally investigator or supervised
over five thousand violent crime investigations. With true crime being
so popular in America today, I think it's pretty cool
we have one of the fathers of its investigative elements
with us today. John's here reveals unique insight into his
profiling process and to explain how he's helped to identifying
(01:30):
capture some of America's most deprived minds and dangerous criminals.
So I gotta start off. I was so spell bound
by this NEXTFLI show mine hunter the whole idea that
we didn't know about criminal profiling that much anyway at
this time. And just to set up real quickly, everybody,
they always were looking for the motive, right, and the
motive was you hate the husband, or yeah, you're trying
(01:50):
to steal money, right, the obvious motives. But these guys
that you're talking about have different kinds of motives. What
got you into this, Well, it got me into it
was I was a very young age when I was
recruited by the Bureau out of the Air Force at
twenty five years of age. UH then went back to Quantico.
Then it was assigned to the Detroit office. And I
was always interested in in trying to understand if I'm
(02:13):
arresting a fugitive, I want to know where he went.
Was there anything I could see in his background that
would help us apprehend him sooner? But it was Super
Bowl Sunday in nineteen seventy two, and were Gould arrest
a couple hundred guys in Detroit organized crime figures hit men.
And I was going to arrest three that day and
again twenty five and one of the first people I
(02:36):
arrested looked like Paul Newman, a nice, good looking guy.
And I got him in the car and I always
like to talk. I like to talk and learn. I
want to learn from them. And I had him cuffed
and I said, Frank, Man, I said, what's with you.
Every couple of years, it seems like we're arresting you
the state police, there's arresting you local, the local police
and uh and he says, man, he says, you don't
(02:58):
get a kid. I said, what are you talking about?
It was raining that day and he looks over to
the right side of the pane of glass and he said,
you see those two rain drops over there? I said,
what about it? He says, I bet you the one
on the left gets down to the pain and glass
before the one on the right. So I said, okay,
let's go, man, I'll bet you in the back. So
so sure enough he wins. Is his uh the rain
(03:20):
drop race? And he says, you see what is who?
I'm talking about? Kids? And and that's why he beat
me in a rain drop Razor right, And he said no, man,
he says, look, we don't need a Super Bowl. All
we need are two rain drops. We are who we are,
and you are not going to change, is Douglas. You're
not gonna change, is the f B. I I don't
care who you're talking about. It's within us. It's it's
(03:43):
it's within you know, our brain, our soul, the thrill
seeking right, and and the uh and it was just
something they just uh, it's still seeking and it's power
that they have and uh and the control they have
over others. And so I always wondered, because I was
(04:03):
interested in the behavioral science, if I could I get
back to Quantico, would I be able to apply this to,
you know, to violent offenders. So when I came back,
now it's thirty two years of age I had. I
was a SWAT team member of Sniper, on the SWAT
team of hostage Negotiator. I already had a couple of
advanced degrees. It was beginning a doctorate, uh degree. And
I went back and I sat back the class and
(04:25):
just like in the Mine Hunter series, was auditing and
I see these instructors. They're older than me, but they're
getting their facts wrong, and the the students are challenging them.
They're challenging their facts. Hey, man, I work the case.
I worked the case. You got your wrong. So I'm
thinking I'm supposed to be auditing these guys. I'm gonna
be up in front of this class, you know pretty soon.
(04:48):
What can I do to accelerate my my learning? So
we had these rose schools in those days. Two weeks
at a time. You're on the road. You could be
a week in boys the Idaho. Then you go on
to like l A l A and and a yell
a school because it was just road schools, a term
that we used in the FBI. You're gonna go out
and teach you rather teach a quantico. Now we're gonna
we're gonna send send you out there, and you're gonna
(05:10):
go to the local academies, police academies. So I told
my partner, I said, let's go into the penitentiary. Let's
see if these people will talk to us. Let's see
if if uh, Charles Manson or you know ed Kemper
or Sir hands her hand or you know James are
already if they'll they'll talk. Is that you're crazy, man,
you're crazy, you know, let's see, these guys are probably
(05:31):
bored and whatever. So I went in. I started going
into the penitentiary. You didn't ask for bureau permission. When
the bureau found out about what the hell are you
doing going in doing these kind of interviews? Uh, you know,
it was that part of the story is true. I
thought they may that's all true. So you know, you
were doing this. I saw a lot of and we
saw my office in the basement sixty My office was
(05:52):
sixty ft underground, ten times deeper than dead people always
tells you there was sixty sixty ft under so, so
that's exact, exactly true. You know, what what are you
doing doing that? You know, you know, just it should
be like just like drag Net or or whatever. So
and then and then we uh uh teamed up with
(06:12):
Dr Anne Burgess, who's the Wendy character in the Mine
Hunter of Chiefs Unversity professor right, and she's but she's
a uh, she's a forensic nurse. She's not a psychologist.
And she didn't teach us how to know how to
do the interviews in these interrogations whatever we were doing,
but she helped us develop this computerized instrument of fifty
seven page a computerized instrument. We did it as a
(06:34):
as a team, covering the victim, covering the crime, uh,
the offender, the pre offense behavior, post offense behavior, criminal history,
all these all these different things. And and that's what
she did. But I didn't ask her, how should I
go interview Manson? And then now we got finally got approval,
We got the grants. Like they they're showing on on television.
The backstory is different, Dr Oz. The backstory when I
(06:57):
came back, had married, had one one child. And this
is really kind of funny because because my wife's meent
a school teacher for forty seven years, and I live
in Fredericksburg, small small community, and we're watching the first
the first show because we had hadn't seen it, and
but the first show is a little violent to set
by second show. There's some sex in the uh you know,
(07:19):
in one of the and she's trying to teach teach
him something. Is that is that supposed to be me?
My wife sells me. I said, well, sure as hells
in me. This is the Hollywood. I've seen this part here,
you know, in the show. It's not you know, it's
like me, oh yeah, this is embarrassing my living a school.
Yeah I know, yeah yeah. So so we uh started,
(07:43):
you know, started doing the interviews, and then the cases
started rolling in. So I got the first year was
like fifty and cops are coming in and now you're
you're starting to be like Ef Hutton when you talk.
People are listening and a young, young, young guy, you know,
full full of digger here and so so the case
are coming and then every year they started fifty. Now
(08:03):
it's a hundred hundred and fifty by the time I
retired a thousand cases. But meanwhile, what's happened to me?
And you saw it in the mind not the show
is is Kemper grab Kemper never grab grabbed me, uh
like that, But what was happening to me? So Kemper
six nine, huge person and he lifts up. The character
(08:25):
is playing you and you feel the fear of having
someone like that control you. Until then, Kemper has been
this incredibly charismatic, kindly guy that you sit down had
the infected cops that were who arrested him couldn't believe
it was him because they're all friends with the personal friends.
So back to the reality. Yeah, so I forgot where
it was where going. He didn't really grab you, like, no,
he didn't know it right, he didn't grab me. But
(08:46):
what was happening? Uh you know to me, I was
beginning to get burned out. I was getting burned out
in the job I was. It was the nature of
the work, and then the volume of the work, and
then dealing with the victim was us In some cases,
like in the current book The Kill across the Table
with a mother Mrs Deleasandra wants me to go through
(09:07):
all the details of what what happened to her daughter,
How was her daughter killed? Did my daughter fight? Uh?
Tell me about the bruising and all that, and it
is emotionally uh devastating for me. And so here I
was up in New York City in in in uh
nineteen eighty three. I was in here up here in
Novemba training several hundred police from all over the area.
(09:28):
And during my presentation, I thought I was having a
heart attack. I thought, I'm thinking of these cases I
gotta do. I just came back from England on New
Yorkshire River. Case I gotta go up to Alaska where
a man named Hansen is abducting women and flying them
up in the wild and stripping him down naked and
hunting him down like wild animals. I gotta deal with that.
(09:48):
I gotta deal with the Green River murder case and
just other cases you don't even know about. I had
this anxiety attack and I'm thinking, oh, man, you know,
regroup dogs. Many group regroup and no one probably caught it.
I was able to regroup, came back to Quantico, took
out income protection insurance, more life insurance. I thought, at
thirty eight, maybe dying here. And the day I leave
(10:10):
to go to Seattle to train some of these young
agents who they assigned to me to train, I go
second by my wife twice. I go out there and
tremendous pain in the right side of my head, and um,
I tell the agent I think I'm getting the flu
I think I think I'm getting fluid. So look, this
is what you have to do. It's Tuesday. I'll see
(10:32):
a fraud and he will head back to Washington, d C.
That night. That night, I just the last thing I remember.
I'm falling and I'm collapsing and my head hits the
floor and I hav to not disturb sign on the hotel.
We spent a couple of days there. I spent several
days on the floor. When he kicked down the door.
My heartbeat was too twenty. My body temperature was a
(10:52):
hundred and seven. So and they said when they took
me the emergency and right temple over was bleeding and
every every couple Lemisi said, my body just started shaking, shaking, trembling.
It was diagnosed as violencephalitis. But they said my immune
system was just so low. There's lots more will be
come back. Yeah, while you're trying to crack these cases,
(11:23):
you're on death's door for a while. It takes you
out of So how did they five months? I was,
how did that change you? You went from being the
nation's premier profiler to someone who faced death and come back.
It made me, Uh, it made me a good leader
for the people that we're gonna be working for me,
because when I began to see signs of burnout for them,
(11:44):
I went to stress psychologists and and I would I
see that, I would let them. I would break FBI
rules and let them, you know, let them go go home.
And it was always a battle of for me to
balance my life. I would actually it sounds kind of more.
But I would go to the cemetery, It's a veteran
cemetery where I was going to be buried on that day,
(12:05):
just to kind of look around to see who my who,
my neighbors would have been here. And so anytime I
start where I can no longer balance the life where
you're struggling, you know, I was trying to. I was
running to the point of exhaustion, as you know, drinking
you know, too much, and I come home, you try
to decompress, to go to a room and before you
(12:26):
can meet the children. It does affect your personally, your
interaction with your family. I'd be lying to you if
I say, you're in bed with your wife and and
some amorous uh you know thing you perhaps are gonna do.
And but you just that day you're working some vicious
LUSS murder case. It affects it affects you and you
wake up you met nightmares from this. So how do
(12:49):
you process all of that? I mean, is there there
is there an in like in the FBI therapist who
you met, Yeah, I went to I went to and
they said I was burning the candle at both ends
and that uh again with with the balance. You see what.
But it's than that, because if the moment has burned
(13:10):
scandal at both ends, the surgeon is curgein. We're working
really hard many hours a day, but he's not confronted
by the darkness that I mean, that side of humanity
that most of us try to avoid to pursue that
for a second, I think you answer this in this context,
what makes a killer? Is evil? Real? This true evil
exists because that would be the thing that would keep
(13:31):
me up at night, that would mess me up from
getting back engaged with my kids if I had faced
something that I thought was all around us. That means
we're all at risk. Yeah, it's almost tell about a
nature nurture type of type of thing too, I mean people,
But I don't I just don't believe there's an evil genetic,
a gene. I think I think they're certain things we
know are inherited addiction, a piece of behavior. Right, These
(13:54):
people that you interviewed, the Kemper's in the case, were
they made evil? Yes they were. They came from and
even in here and in the book The Killer Across
the Table by the Way, a wonderful book that John
wrote with them mar Mark Olschker. Yeah, so they you
see this in the background. I've got one of the guys,
one of the guys in here. He was the guy
in two two years ago that they rescued a woman
(14:17):
and storage container in South Carolina, and uh, I got
to interview him in depth and he when he was
fifteen year ape to fourteen year old girl. But his
background is classic, and he wants me to tell him
about you know, why why do I do the things
that I did? He killed four people in a motorcycle
shop in case. I was down speaking at a university
and the cops came up and I did an analysis,
(14:39):
and then they didn't take my analysis. They should have
because I told him the killer is a disgruntled customer,
and he's in the files and he rather focused in
on a guy who found the bodies. That his behavior, uh,
you know, it was weird. But he's asking me to
tell him about his background. So your background is very
very typical. Uh, it doesn't surprise me what happened. You
were born into the world. Your mother really didn't want
(15:01):
anything to do with you. She abandoned you, She was
running around with other men. You're you know how a
family member that was sexually abusing you as well. Your
dad want nothing to do biological dad, so that your
parents you break up. Mother remarries, remarries. You go out
to visit your biological dad and temp Arizona and he
(15:23):
you don't have much of relationship. So at fifteen years
of age, you rate a fourteen year old girl and
you get They send you not to a juvenile prison,
they send you to to a man's prison for fifteen years,
thirty years. And you're a smart guy, Todd, and you
go back. You go back to South Carolina where you
pick up. You pick up two degrees. You pick up
(15:45):
a real estate license or broker's license. You end up
owning a real estate company. You also have a private
pilace license. But you've got this one problem. If someone
does you wrong, you gotta retaliate. And just like you
retaliated to the people that's so you that motorcycle. Uh
you know in two thousand and two, you waited months
and months and months. You were angry with them. He goes,
(16:07):
you crashed that motorcycle because you did not ride the motorcycle.
And you also found out that in your belief that
they stole that motorcycle because it was a chop shop
and you wanted revenge. But you waited and waited and waited,
and then you went in to stay, and you went
in and you killed four people for people. And his
name was in the indiceas and the file stopped and
(16:29):
he would have found out he was a registered sex offender,
has a criminal this criminal history here, and he went
on to kill and then he went on to to
abduct this girl and when police rescued her in the
storage container. So the backgrounds you and I said, I
don't I did not figure. I don't give you you
I know what happened. But you it's free will, and
(16:50):
you were able to make these choices. You made the
wrong choices, but you you knew right from wrong. You
knew the nature and consequences of your actions. And you
screwed up. Todd, you screw up, and now you gotta
you gotta pay. But smart guy, really smart smart individuals.
Like there's a sexual element, some kind of sexual abuse
or at least dysfunction in a lot of these cases.
(17:11):
Is that yes, there's always right, there's always some type
of the other guy in here. Donald Harvey, who kill
close to a hundred of hospital patients as in orderly,
in fact, just the other day. And if you saw
it in Germany, Yeah, a nurse, a nurse to the
same thing Harvey did here once. Nurses you know, they're
they're the only ones there with the patient of two
(17:32):
in the morning. They can inject you with all kinds
of things. Plus you don't you see, we typically we
deal with predators. You don't like the bun days to
go out and the hunt, but here here you don't.
You don't have to do the hunting. Your your victims
are right there, right, that's right. And so that they're there,
they can kill him. They won't do autopsies on him
because he died at of old age, even though he's
(17:52):
maybe giving him more morphine than it easy, that cyanide
NASA guy. So what happened to in in the U. S.
Durses case? What made him a evil genius? With with him?
And he was really carrismat He was a real charasmat.
A lot of these guys are the real charismatic. I
make him real comfortable so they feel comfortable, you know
with me. But he was he came into this world.
(18:14):
He was he was pretty smart, uh smart he was
smart in school, but he was sexually assaulted when he
was four years of age by an uncle, and then
sexually assaulted by a neighbor, and and then interesting with him.
He would later then pretty much extort them to get
things out of them. He'll have to continue the sex
as he got older. But he's gonna black. He's gonna black,
(18:36):
you know, mail him. But the thing about it with
the first killing, he went in this service and and um,
he attempted suicide. Uh, and they released them. He goes
working works in the hospital and the first person who
he kills, and he all loved him. He thought he
was the greatest guy in the world. He's there to
change the betting and the and the patian defecated in bed.
(18:58):
As he reaches in to clean and change the sheets,
the patient push his feces in in his h in
his face. So what what he will say is, you know,
he got angry at the patient and all this, and
he and he says, well, they should have known that
they shouldn't have put me there. So he kills her,
and he's calling himself. He kills him. He calls himself
(19:20):
the angel of death. And I said, wait, Paul I said, uh, Harvey,
I said, this is an angel and death. This is
not a mercy mercy killing. He's not a mercy killing.
You you put a catheter into this uh you know,
into this man, and then after you put the catherine,
then you got a close hanger which is straightened out,
and you ran that that coute hanger through that catheter
(19:40):
and this man, you know, bled to death. Well yeah,
he said, yeah, that's yeah, that's not really a mercy.
And then you killed some neighbors that that you didn't like.
You were poisoning, poisoning them. And you have then poisoning
your your boyfriends. He was running around with guys in
the park on Monday's and you decided on Sundays you'll
start poisoning him something he won't run around in parks.
And they said, oh, yeah, you're you're right, and and
(20:02):
he's just very But it's interesting the way they talk.
It's just it's just so nonchalant. There's no remorse. Uh,
there's no people the cortex dysfunction, there's no trauma. I
mean people who have head edges. Well, he was dropped
on his head a couple of times as a kid.
He was he was dropping is there a part of
it because they don't seem to you. You're having this
(20:24):
very matter of fact discussion. I can't imagine having this
discussion like that with anybody. But right, but you're commenting on, well,
you killed him, but really wasn't a mercy killing. I
mean that's not discussions we normally had. There's something a
little wrong there. Yeah, oh yeah, there's there's something. There's
something wrong there. I mean, but they're not insane, you know,
they know this premeditation there that he was trained in
(20:45):
the morgue he got he end up having relations with
uh the technician is more in the morgue, and and
the mortician was telling him how how if you kill
people you put plasks that don't don't use just just
a sheet because you know the fibers will show up.
You know, I'll be certain marks, So put a plastic
on there first. Then you can put the you can
(21:07):
put a pillow over the face. And he was having
on affair with him, so he was ridiculous. Uh. Interesting,
But I did that interview with MSNBC. MSNBC, I came
to New York. They weren't happy with my interview interview
with him or this other guy, Condro who killed his
friends children and what they did, I think what they
were surprised at. And I've seen some other shows where
(21:29):
the guy like me, they'll come in like real hard nose,
tough guy with you like growling kind of kind of face.
I'm not that way. I'm not I'm not that way
at all. And so I'm I'm asking, like, for example, Harvey,
about animal torturing, because it's one of the things we
find is that it's a pretty good, pretty good predictor
when you start saying acting out animal cruelty. Uh, you're
(21:53):
torturing of animals, picking out something weak and vulnerable, vulnerable,
and then later on they progressed week and vulnerable. You know,
they'll go to vulnerable people, drug addicts, prostitutes, elderly you know,
you know elderly, you know people here. But uh, it
was what they didn't like about me was that I
would I would kind of smile with him, like I asked, Harvey,
you know what old did you kill? He said, well,
(22:15):
I killed this I killed this chicken. And uh and
and uh, well that's what I was. You're you're on
a farm, says he says, Yeah. But but but this
this chicken here. My mother really liked this chicken. I
didn't didn't. Uh, then she didn't really didn't want me
to have it. I really wanted, so I I killed.
I killed it, and then I killed a couple of cows.
(22:37):
My why why did you that in a neighbor's cows?
I said, because I was angry with this guy. So
I cut his throat a couple of times, a couple
of times, and then killed a few of his cows.
And he says, well, that's all I did. And so
I smiled, and I said, that's that's more than most
of us. I said, that's so. So the MSNBC sees
me smiling, they think I got to be in this
(22:58):
guy's face. And and uh and the same thing when
any of you conjure this guy was killing his friends children,
like like us O B. You know you they want
to execute you know, I'm trying to get information I need.
And when you do an interview to you, there's sometimes
you go go on an interview you only want to
(23:19):
know one thing. There's one main thing, because you kind
of know the case. I go in there well prepared,
no notes, no no tape recorders, like they're they're showing.
I want I want to maintain eye contact with dealing
with paranoid individuals that who they don't trust necessarily you
what are you doing with the notes? What are you
doing with the tape recorder? I don't I don't trust
(23:40):
the correction So I go in there pretty well. But
you know, you know vers uh, you know, you know
on the case and know the case pretty much. Uh,
you know backwards, you know, you know, and forwards, and
they didn't. They did not like you said, you want
one question answered, yeah, well one question, okay, Like Dennis Raider,
the BTK strangler, who worked and interviewed him, Dennis, why
(24:03):
did you stop? Why did you stop for years at
a time, because we in law enforcement think that maybe
they moved on to another uh another city, maybe they're incarcerated,
and maybe they died. And what happened? He said, well,
on this day I came home. He was a compliance
officer another thing, a lot of a police buff so
he could wear a badge. They love that stuff and
complying still officer in fences, infringing on your neighbor's property,
(24:27):
move it, you know your grass is too high? Cut
it the type of thing. So I come home this
day and he was into cross dressing with with his
victim's clothing, and he was also into into UH auto eroticism, strangling, strangling, strangling,
and UH had a mask he would wear a woman
that he painted eyebrows, eyes, and a mouth, lipstick and hair,
(24:51):
was wearing, was wearing that. When his wife comes walking in,
What the hell is this? You know what? So I
got a problem, He says, you damn right, you got
a problem. His wife's thought, you know what what that
was going on? I just she didn't put two in
two together. Knowing that he was the b t K strangler.
She calls the v A Center to say, look, I
have this friend whose husband is doing this. What does
(25:12):
that mean? So they explained to her what what that means.
And you know, maybe something held kill whoever this person is.
Well we'll get over this. Well that's what scared him,
he said, John, That's what scared him. So I stopped.
But then I went back the killing again. And then
she caught me again another time wearing victims dresses and
doing this cross dressing stuff, and uh, I stopped. I stopped. Well,
(25:34):
how when did you finally surface again? Because then you
went under for a lot of years. Well, when there
was a guy in Wichita it was going to write
a book. If anybody's going to write a book about me,
it's gonna be me. So how hell you get to
publish his book? What do you he says? He says,
I'll bury this book. That may one day, a hundred
years from now, someone will realize that Dennis Raider was
the B T K strangler. He was just lucky too.
(25:55):
He wasn't smart, He had just a hundred i Q
but stupid. He he starts communicating with the police and
hells the police, and they're going back and forth with
the newspaper through codes. If and he tells, them, uh,
if I seen you a floppy disk, will you be
able to trace this floppy disk? You know? Back to me?
The police, what are they gonna say? Of course, we
(26:16):
can't do something that's way too sophisticated. All right, So
incomes the floppy disk and they get this. The computer
guys all around, you know, they're ready. You have to
do this. All the scientific stuff too difficult. No, you
don't have to be we can do it. Uh. Comes
in he's sticking in the computer up pops Christ Lutheran Church,
Dennis Rader, president of the you know of the church
(26:38):
the zero win on. Interesting what they did they were
able to you know, they don't have we have DNA
from a murderch he did of this family or Terrell
family venty nine and UH and one of the victims
he when he was really after a young girl, brought
down to the basement, tied her up and he uh
masturbated on her. So we had we have DNA on
(26:59):
that case, say from nineteen seventy nine. Or the police do.
What they do is they go to the UH to
Kansas State University to find out where his daughter went
to school. She went there, and they go into the
clinic where she had a PAP smere don And I
didn't realize this. They hang onto those UH for for
years and years apparently you don't know, and they got
(27:20):
they got the DNA and so what so all we
can after he they listened to and listen to him.
All we can tell you, Dennis, is that the father
of your daughter is the B T K strangler. That
your daughter's father is a B T K strangler. And
he looks at that and he hears that. He says, okay,
so then he proceeds to talk and he just spills
(27:43):
his guts. He doesn't care what uh a thing about
the victims. What I didn't like about the case was
when the prosecutor she wanted to make a name for
herself and he plea bargained and so they really didn't
have to have him go to court to go through.
All he had to do is say, us, I killed
this person. But she made him go through every case
and at all the specific details, which he loved. He
(28:06):
loved going through all these cases over and over again
because it's inadequate. Nobody was finally as somebody you know
in his life, and what is your motivation? What is
it about? And I had an idea what it was.
He says, it's all about the rope, John, And what
he meant was is that with the rope he was binding.
Bondage was the thing. Bondage was more uh, the selection
(28:28):
of the victim, the hunt for the victim, uh, and
then and then the bondage. And of course he has
to kill uh. It is it is. And he had
all these drawings which I have, of of what he was,
what his fantasies were, and he acted the fantasies out
that he when he would draw. But the differences with
fantasy with all these different kind of killers is the
(28:51):
fantasy is something that uh. They are the writer, that
the producer, their their director, the actor, and it's perfect
the I see, he is always perfect, but the crime
is never never never works out that way. So there's
never the satisfaction that for the perfect crime. And so
the beat goes on it looking for more and they
(29:12):
look for more victims, more questions after the break. So
I got a couple of tapes if it's okay, What's
you're really good at is the actual interviews. And this
(29:32):
is so riveting to me. Just understand how you get
into because most of us get caught up in the
fact he killed twelve people, not the like I would
have never thought to ask denistrator why he stopped, But
of course that's the perfect question asked. Okay, So Charles Manson, Uh,
he's described as a showman. Uh, And I'm just curious
if he's different than how we today see him, at
(29:53):
least on television. So I'm gonna play a short clip
of one of Charles Manson's many interviews. I'm gonna listen
to what he had to say when he would ask
if he felt guilty. So let's play the clip police.
There's no need to feel guilty. I haven't done anything
I'm ashamed of. Maybe I haven't done enough. I might
be ashamed of that for not doing enough, for not
giving enough, for not being more perceptive, for not being
(30:16):
aware enough, for not understanding, for being stupid. Maybe I
should have killed four or five hundred people. Then I
would have felt better. And when I felt like I
really offered society something. Yeah, that's brings back flashbacks of
(30:37):
because he's very melodic when he when he speaks and
I and when I did the interview with him, I
made sure there was furniture in there because I knew
I'm six too, he's five too. I knew he was
going to dominate me. Because he used to be on
the George Spawn ranch and sit up on top of
the rock and preach to his followers. UH. He wasn't
(30:58):
really a big drug addict. He would take just enough
drugs just to get high, but he used drugs to
control his family, so called family. When he had sex
with the UH with the members there, he would script
them as if they're having sex with their father. A
lot of these kids who gravitated to the hate Ashbury. Uh,
we're running away from home. Their dad, the god almighty Buck,
(31:19):
you know. So, so he then took over being this
uh his father, uh figure. But he he is not
a serial killer. I know. Vincent Bugliosi was a lie.
I didn't like the comments I made about him because
I thought even if he got out, I said, he
probably if you got out of prison, he's dead down.
But if you got out of prison, this was just
a few years ago, he he wouldn't be, uh, you know,
(31:41):
committing problem. It's a big Bugliosi who wrote he was
a prosecutor in the in the case against against him,
and had the theory the help of skelter, and he
preached that Manson Preacher helda skelter which was uh, the
White Album of the Beatles, and he interpreted to that
that there's gonna be a race war, and and uh,
(32:03):
there's gonna be this race war, one by between the
blacks and the whites, one by the blacks. But we're
gonna come forward a hundred forty four thousand strong with
our dune buggies armed with machine guns, and we'll wipe
all the blacks off and then we'll you know, we'll
run the world. It really was, it really was BS.
I mean he didn't really believe this stuff, but he
really wanted with sex, drugs and rock and roll. And
(32:25):
he and he he really was close to Dennis Wilson
of the Beach Boys wanted to be in the band. Uh.
Dennis Wilson liked them because he was providing girls, you know,
girls for him. Uh he Uh what it learned, what
it learned, it's he. It was was this charismatic, uh,
individual with very experienced. He spent half of his life
(32:46):
in prison. So when he goes, they hate Ashbury. These kids,
they don't know anything about crime or anything at all.
He's able to knows how to manipulate, uh, manipulate them.
But he got them to believe so much in this
in this this white album, this stuff, this race war
type of thing. That he lost control control of the group.
Unlike uh David Koresh and the Way Go Texas. David
(33:07):
Koresh kept us people confined, confined and and we're not
able to leave the compound. Uh. The same thing with
Jim Jones and Guiana people killed that he that he
takes down in they drink the cyanide, you know, kool
ai so. But he is a master manipulator. And and
and I tried to almost kind of sound like him,
(33:29):
like the tape you just played, Uh, going in again.
We didn't have notes or anything like that. And he
sat on top of the table dominating me. The funny
part during the interviews when we're we're finished. We interviewed
him a few times over the years. Uh, he says,
you gotta give me something. You gotta give me something.
Me gotta give you something you want? What do you
want from me? He said? Those glasses, you got those
(33:52):
ray bands? I want those ray bands. What do you
want the ray band? He says, because I gotta they
know I'm now I'm talking to the FBI. I gotta
show I ripped you. You guys off, that I stole
something from you and that you're not even aware of,
so I can go back there. So so we have
to give him our glary nice rape band sunglasses. So
he could, you know, boast about it, But he didn't.
(34:13):
He it's a lack of remorse in his comments. I'm
fascinting all the background, but as you listen to him
say that there's no Yeah, there's nothing, because you see,
he is the victim. He is the victim of society.
And and uh, I think you get so you have
this really crazy kind of theories. But then some of
the stuff he's saying him and I interviewed Squeaky from
(34:34):
and Sandraw Good and interviewed them and here in West
Virginia then down to Florida, you know, prison. That thing
was the was was pollution and blue skies and and
clear water and what they're saying. I mean, I'd like
to I want blue skies and old pollution. And you know,
so some of the stuff they're saying, you know, you
agree with. It's just that, Okay, Sandy Good, you should
(34:55):
not have extorted this nuclear power plant. You screwed up there.
And Squeaky you probably shouldn't have shot at gerald Ford
and that got you in, you know, in prison. That's
that's how they ended up in prison. Uh, Squeaky's still
in prison. Sandra Good is out of prison. Is he
pretty common for these types of criminals, serial murderers, this
idea that they're a victim. And I knew you said
(35:17):
the former guy wasn't insane, but he sounds pretty insane
to me. There's there's definitely a lack of Yeah, he's yeah,
i Q was one be streets smart. He's not educated,
you know, he's educated in the prison system his whole life.
And he was, you know, he was brought into his
world as mother was a prostitute. His uh the father's
(35:39):
name was Maddox for a while, and uh, they would
force him to wear women's clothing, girl's clothing when he
when he sent him to school, and of course he
was very, very tiny. He was bullied upon and then
he started acting out again the animal cruelty, committing now
crimes of he was in burglaries and also we called
(35:59):
the Dire Act. He was still stolen cars, but he
became educated through the criminal system. So so he's just
very very you know, knowledgeable. You know, I mean called
I don't know why why because d y e er
it was stolen stolen cars and the bureau work. He's
taken across interstate car just that just the car didn't
(36:23):
sell it, you know, sell and make money, steal the
car and make it or just just simply for there
is the type. These guys are all kind of fall
into the same pattern. It looks they were all different.
Some are a little bit different, you know. And the
way they murdered David Burke Woods is more up here
in New York was more of an assassination style killing. Uh.
The the son of Sam going after girls and lovers
(36:44):
lanes were speaking of different people. Let me play one
more team. This is from Ted Bundy. Now, Ted, this
is an interview right before his execution. He's talking about
what he felt the next day after his first murder.
This is important because one of the things that John
Douglas has talked a lot about was that initial experience
of what it felt like to get started to wake
(37:05):
up in the morning and realized what I had done
and with a clear mind and all my essential moral
and ethical feelings intact at that moment, all right. Uh,
absolutely horrified that I was capable of doing something like that.
(37:28):
And he actually crazily truld messengers most people would think
of as a crazy person, although he's cacharis back to
his groups. Uh, anybody charismatic, Uh, you know, law student, handsome. Uh.
And he seems like he actually had insight into what
he had done criminally. How do you compare the two
He was able again, it was the fantasy thing with
(37:50):
him that staw out to development. He didn't. Everyone thinks
he got such a great early childhood. No, he was.
His mother had him out of wedlock and like nineteen
forties six, and in those days, you know that I
couldn't talk about stuff like that. So they sent they
sent her away, and little little do you know, he
when he was ready growing up, they told him that
(38:12):
that his mother was his sister. So he was so
that was his sister and the grandparents, his grandparents were
the ones to raise him. And later on he would
find out you know about that that that upbringing he
he was, Uh, he's he's the early childhood again. He's
still he's still somewhat different, but he's able to, he says,
(38:35):
to compartmentalize it. It It looks like, you know, he's getting
ready to be executed, you know here, and he's you
don't have it here. But he's he will blame things.
And he was speaking to his Reverend Dobbins at the time.
Uh that, uh, that pornography. Pornography was the cause of
his problems. And then then pornography was no longer satisfying,
so he had he wanted to go and act out
the things that he was. He was, uh, you know,
(38:57):
saying you know in the magazine when they called me,
they called me back to discuss this because do you
want to study him? We can keep him alive. You
want to you want to study me? Then we talked
about the pornography and he said, no, no, we we
see the pornography. The pornography, it fuels the fantasy. It's
not the cause of him to do these uh, to
(39:18):
do these things. But we pretty well have a good
handle on Mounday. We've interviewed him several times, and one
of my agents and my unit went down pretty close
to him and was with him at the point when
he got executed. And I said, but would pretty well
study study him so you can move on with you
with the execution and uh, you know, carry this thing through.
Let people want to do these interviews. They think, oh, man,
(39:39):
you really feel for this guy. I mean, this guy
and what he and the things that he did. I said,
I mean, I'm feigning empathy, you know. Here I'm trying
to get information, but I'm maybe I'm something wrong, Maybe,
I said, maybe maybe Maybe. I said, if you want
if you're looking for a volunteer to pull the switch
on this guy, Gary Hednik in Philadelphia who kept women
in the in the and in the pit of abasement
(40:02):
like in Silence of the Lambs. He was a guy interviewed. Uh.
In fact, Leslie Stall followed me in sixty minutes into
the into the prison and I coached the prosecution on
in that case. But he had women in that in
that basement. Is he would put women in there, filled
the pit up with water and get electric wire and
that we were in shackles and electrocute them. And he
killed one. And I don't know, this is pockets. I
(40:24):
guess I can say this here. He ended up putting
this victim in a in a meat grind or fed
that victim to the other victims and as well as
as the dog that he had when I interviewed him.
He doesn't care anything about that. So I was treating
the women nicely at birthday parties down there. And you
will say he's insane, right, this guy is crazy. He
(40:45):
Uh he had over six hundred thousand dollars in the
bank that he invested in the stock market, and he
had the stockbroker and testified that no. Gary Heidnick was
picking out his his own investments here. He also put
cinder blocks around the windows in the basements so no
one can hear the screams and yells and turn up
the UH, turn up the UH, the the radio, and
(41:06):
so if they start yelling, no one can, you know,
I can hear that. The only time I got to him,
and again once again it was with the mother. It
was it was the mother thing bringing that up. And
he just went nuts. He want to pull the mic
from from his shirt and lesslie stall is there and
looking at this guy, it's I've seen it so many
(41:26):
times and somebody just did it. Somebody just did a review.
You probably look on your own books. You'll see your reviews.
I shouldn't look at even the good reviews. I should
like there's a tendency to look. You want to look.
So then I saw one. I got this one. She
gave me a three. So I'm radiant and and and
she doesn't like what I have to say in there.
And the killer across the table, you're killer across the
(41:46):
table book where like I'm saying, it's a parental thing,
and more times than not, it's coming on the mother,
the mother's side here, So I had So I was
so tempted to answer, but I'm not but but but
I felt like it's saying so she gave these sample, Well,
Mrs Della Sandro should not have sent her child down
to to uh, you know, to collect money for the
box of box of cookies. Oh, so we're gonna blame
(42:09):
We're gonna blame the victims. Now, we're gonna blame the
surviving victims, not not this the teacher at the house
that she knocked, you know, on the door. So we're
gonna blame everything on Mrs On Mrs Della Sandro. In fact,
in those days you could could pretty much go, you know, go.
You should be allowed to. That's the thing about the
victor shimming. You should be allowed to whether yes, whether
you would do it or not in your family and
(42:29):
how paranoid you are, that's your own personal decision. This
isn't John Douglas unbelievable. I've enjoyed it hosting you on
the show, acknowledge, but I love hearing from the folks
who are there. Yeah, you know, if if you have
something else, come up, give me a call. The Killer
Across the Sea a wonderful book with lots of five
star ratings for what you've done. Thank you, God, bless you,
(42:52):
thank you
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.