July 14, 2023 • 39 mins
Leslie Van Houten was 19 years old when she and other followers of Charles Manson brutally killed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca inside their Los Angeles home.
Leno LaBianca had been stabbed 12 times with a knife and seven times with a carving fork. The fork stuck in his abdomen, and a kitchen knife in his throat. The word “war” had also been carved into his abdomen. Mrs. LaBianca had a total of 41 stab wounds on the front and back of her body.
Now after 53 years in custody, the convicted killer is free.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Ava Roosevelt - Friend of victims who had been invited to Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski’s house (and was nearly a victim herself); Former Model and Producer for The Racing Heart Productions; Author: “The Racing Heart” available on Amazon; Contributor to Business Club Magazine
- Anthony DiMaria - Nephew of Jay Sebring, Director of “Jay Sebring…Cutting to the Truth”
- Lis Wiehl - Former Federal Prosecutor and Author: “Hunting Charles Manson;" Twitter: @liswiehl
- Dr. Michelle Joy - Forensic, Clinical, and Academic Psychiatrist; Author: “An Illustrated History of the Insanity Defense;" Twitter: @Westphillymorbidart
- Karen Smith - Forensic Expert, Host of “Shattered Souls: The Car Barn Murders” Podcast, and Lecturer at the University of Florida
- Dr. Jan Gorniak - Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV); Board Certified Forensic Pathologist
- Lisa Statman - Author: “Restless Souls: The Sharon Tate Family's Account Of Stardom, The Manson Murders, and a Crusade For Justice;" Twitter: @AlisaStatman
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, a cold blooded mass killer
walks free, walking amongst us, And no, the mass killer
did not scale the jailhouse walls to escape. There was
(00:26):
no elaborate plan to run free. As a matter of fact,
she walked out on her own volition and has now
turned into somewhat.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Of a media darling.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
A mass killer has walked free, and the governor practically
rolled out a red carpet. I'm talking about a Charles
Manson cult killer. I'mancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
(01:03):
you for being with us here at Foxination and Serious
sexem one eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I want you to take.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
A listen to the Charles Manson cult killer. Leslie van
Houten listened, and.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So then I'm supposed to mess her up. And I
took the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned
into an animal almost, you know.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I just completely let out on that woman's.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Bad and it felt so weird that I blew my
mind behind that you can't understand what I mean, but
blow my mind.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I mean I lost control. I went completely messed that moment.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It was hard to get through. Like when I thought stabbing,
I didn't. I didn't really have any idea in my.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Mind, no idea in my mind. I was supposed to
quote mess her up. I took the knife and I
started stabbing. I turned into an animal and more.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Listen, it's a real feelings.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
It's not even like cutting a piece of meat. It's
much tougher.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And I had to use both hands and all my pressure,
all my strength behind it to get it in. And
so once they started, the feeling was so weird that
I just kept doing it. And then I went into
the other room and I noticed that there's been things
written on the wall. There was pig and rise and
helter skelter, but I know that they were written in blood.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's not like coming a piece of meat. It's much tougher.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I had to use both hands and all my pressure
and all my strength behind it to get it in.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I just kept doing it.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You are hearing the chilling words of a mass killer
Leslie van Houghten. To the shock of many, now walking free,
she goes.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
On listen and put on and meat for him to
be the eatable off.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Dying.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
The woman down because.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
He had done it before. It was yeah, the lamp
(03:33):
cord has been.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
She jumped.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
All of a sudden she jumped up after having her
hands tied with a lamp cord. Rosemary law Beyonca's head
covered in a pillow case as she sustained.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Over forty stab wounds.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And this killer is free to the shock of the victims' families. Again,
thank you for being with us, Joining me right now
an all star panel to make sense of what we
know right now. But first to Anthony d Maria, nephew
(04:11):
of one of the Manson murder victims, director of Jay
Sabreing cutting to the truth, Anthony, thank you for being
with us. What has been the reaction of the victims'
families to Leslie vn Houghton walking free.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
Well, I've spoken with numerous of the families and we're
in a state of shock, even though we saw this
week it was announced that this is where the release
was headed. It's literally gut wrenching and mind numbing, nauseating.
But all of us I've spoken to share that we
feel a tremendous sense of betrayal, let down by the
(04:50):
justice system, and an extreme We're extremely disappointed that the
governor decided not to file an appeal that did allowed
the release of Leslie.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Also joining me in addition to the nephew of one
of the Manson murder victims, Ava Roosevelt. She had actually
been invited to share and Tate and Roman plants He's home,
and was an inch away from being murdered that night.
She's the author of The Racing Heart, available on Amazon.
(05:23):
You can find that at the Racingheart dot com. Ama,
thank you for being with us. I really paused and
thought about whether I should play for you and the listeners.
The words in her own words, Leslie van Houghton describing
(05:43):
how difficult it was to slice into the victims. But
as I've told many many juries, it's very hard to
listen to. But in order to make a true decision
or each a true verdict, you have to know the truth,
and that is the truth. What is your response to
(06:05):
Leslie Van Hotten walking free.
Speaker 7 (06:07):
It's shocking. It's an egregious egregious uh legal for power
really And I think that I just wanted to say
to the gentleman speaking before me that Jay Sebring was
a very good I'm very sorry for your lord. There
are no words by how I feel, really, and if
(06:32):
I break down, please forgive me, because I'm the tragedy,
not only of the Lablanca but also Jay C bring Gibe,
Folder Voidect and of course Sharon. The biggest picture for
me here is uh, she's walking. She's going to be
(06:52):
supported by the society and received a red carpet. Like
you said, I wish I had it in my heart
to praise. I can't because no amount of LSD at
any age would make me commit a crime like as
the word, she's accused of and convicted.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
All you know what, Ava, You're so right, not only
accused of but convicted. And at the time that Van
Houghten was convicted of multiple murders, she was sentenced to
the death penalty. Then the state of California reversed the
death penalty and her sentence was reduced to not life
without parole but life joining me again, as I mentioned,
(07:39):
an all star panel. But now to Lisa Statmann, author
of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's account of Stardom
Manson murders and a Crusade for Justice. Lisa, how did
this happen? Why did the Governor Gavin Newsom just lay
down and let Leslie Vnhatten roll all over him? He said, well,
(08:02):
you know what, I don't think the California Supreme Court
is going to keep her behind bar.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
So I just give up? Why why give up on
what's right?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think it's a couple of things, Nancy.
Speaker 8 (08:12):
If we look back, history is literally repeating itself to
when Dorstate became involved in these Pearl hearings, all the
way back in nineteen seventy eight, when Vane had nine
hundred signatures for her release, and it was right at
that moment that Dorstate, even though Leslie was not convicted
of Sharon's murder, she knew that the floodgates were going
(08:33):
to open for the rest of them. And what was
happening in that moment is that there were no DA representatives,
there was a Border Prison Terms panel that had to
do zero research on the commitment offense. Therefore they never
went over it. And as it is now, we had
(08:54):
overcrowding in prisons. And so basically what is happening is
exactly what happened in nineteen seventy eight, and sadly we
don't have the political backing that Doristate grew and nurtured
until it was a victim's Right state, and that is slowly,
slowly been flipping away. There's also the misconception of the
(09:16):
fact that she you know, at her last parole hearing,
they gave her the stipulation basically, you're qualified for parole
because you're part of your elderly and you've served more
than twenty five years in prison. That was the only
criteria that they gave her to get out.
Speaker 9 (09:35):
So while I.
Speaker 8 (09:36):
Am incredibly disappointed in Gavin Newsom for not fighting the fight,
what he is basically saying, I think is that it
is a lost cause in this moment in our state,
because we are shifting to the criminal's rights as opposed
to the victim's right.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Guys, you just heard Lisa Statman mention this Leslie van
Houghton appearing before the Pardon and Parole boards. But I
want you to hear exactly what she's saying in order
to get out. I mean, has anybody on this panel
heard Let me think of a good example. Anybody's seen
(10:16):
Ocean's eleven. Do you remember when George Clooney said everything
he was supposed to say to the Pardoner and Parole
Board about how he admits he did it, He's sorry
he did it, He'll never do it again, He's a
changed man. He was upset because his wife had left him,
which is Julia Roberts, who wouldn't be upset, and then
he gets out and does an incredible heist. Right, he
(10:38):
knew what he had to say. I'm trying to give
you an example. This happens over and over every day.
As a matter of fact. Take a listen to our
cut six. This is Sharon Tate's sister Deborhate speaking to
this exact issue on News Nation.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
She is speaking rehearsed words.
Speaker 10 (11:00):
It's part of the rehabilitation program. Is they actually teach
inmates what to say and how to handle themselves. She
has never said she was sorry in a letter or
a personal form to the Lobyanca family.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
She will cry phony.
Speaker 10 (11:18):
Tears in the courtroom saying she's sorry to the parole board,
but not to her victims' families.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Prime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, former federal prosecutor,
author of Hunting Charles Manson, LESE.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Will Lee, thank you so much for being with us, Lise.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Is that true our inmates coached on what to say
when they go up before pardon and parole?
Speaker 11 (12:02):
Nancy absolutely. And I'll give you another example when Anthony
was there. That's the Text Watson parole hearing, the last
parole hearing that he had several years ago, and I
was there as the only journalist that was allowed in.
I was with the victims, and they were petrified of
the fact that because of California law, that Text Watson
(12:22):
could get out for the same reasons that Leslie van
Holton just got out.
Speaker 8 (12:26):
Can I interject something real quick? This is Lisa Statman. Yes,
at Leslie van Holton's one of her parole hearings. You know,
they have to have a psychiatric evaluation before every hearing.
And I would like to give you a quote that
speaks to everything that you just said. This is from
a doctor McDaniel. He said, Miss van Holton possesses a
(12:46):
degree of personal term that is very convincing. The obvious
question is whether this represents poo emotional change and restructuring
of her personality or someone who is so smooth in
their manipult relations that they're barely perceptible. And I'm going
to say that that puts a nut on Lessie van Houghton.
(13:07):
And to go back to what Ava said, and is
the fact that she has never and this is a
requirement of the border prison terms for a release. She
has never taken full responsibility for her actions. She has
said I participated, She has said I gingerly stabbed Rosemary
LaBianca in the back after she was dead.
Speaker 9 (13:29):
And you know in those tapes she said she doesn't
know she's dead.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Guys, I want you to hear the words of Leslie Vanhattan. Now,
this is after Sharon Tate's sister claims, and I agree
with her that Leslie Vanhattan is simply reciting words that
she's been coached to say in order to get what
she wants, and that is released. Why is she released
(13:56):
when the victims are still in their coffins, they're still dead,
but she is out enjoying life. As a matter of fact,
has turned into a media sensation. She's like a little
pet or a mascot while they're still dead and their
families have somehow moved forward as best they can, limping
(14:19):
and hurting. And now this, but this I'm playing for you,
is how Leslie van Houghton really feels in her own words.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Take a listen to our cut eleven.
Speaker 12 (14:31):
Could you tell us how you feel now about what
happened to the blob beyond because and all the other
people that were killed.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Well, I can't really feel sorry because I did it,
and I did it.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Would there have the intention of it being right?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I heard that mister t sort of blew his mind.
You've got a yippy.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Hairdoo looking for the people that did it to his daughter.
That's so sorry for those people.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I really want to be honest. If you know, wow,
well all it is the body.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
What you were doing was right?
Speaker 12 (15:04):
And if you did it, why was it right?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
I thought it was perfectly right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No remorse what so ever. None.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
In fact, Van Houghton says, I thought it was perfectly right.
Back to Les will joining Us, author of Hunting Charles
Masnet took her two years to research and write the
book now on Amazon.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Is it true?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Van Houghton to this day has never expressed remorse.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
She admits she did it.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
She goes into gruesome details about how it was so
hard to cut human flesh, describes every single aspect of it,
we think, but never shows any remorse.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
No tears, no upset, nothing, no.
Speaker 11 (15:54):
And you hear it, they were just bodies. Can you
imagine saying that they.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
Were just bodies?
Speaker 11 (16:00):
There's no remorse it's coaching. Just as Text Watson was
coached and had to look at a list of the
victims as he rattled them up. He had to actually
look at them because he couldn't remember them. So, you know,
these people have both been coached, and the legal standard.
This is what's so terrifying to me. The legal standard
is whether she can be whether she's the danger to
(16:20):
the community. That's one of the prongs, right, Yes, I
think she still is. This person is a cult follower,
and you know, with Tex Watson and his hearing, it
was I've found Christ and I'm going to be you know,
I'm going to follow Christ. Well, he gets into a
church and does whatever the preacher says, you know, the
pastor says, you get a you know, wacko pastor or
(16:40):
preach preacher. Same thing. I mean, she gets out she's
a cult member. She's going to find another type of cult,
whatever that is in our day to day life, and
join that and do whatever that cult leader says. I mean,
it's just incredible to me that the court system didn't
see that that she is still a danger that can.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Another danger in the release of Leslie Manhaughtan is that
it releases the floodgates they're open. Now are all the
Manson killers going to be released? And because of this release?
Can other killers?
Speaker 7 (17:15):
Now?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Say? Will let Leslie vn Houghten out? Why can't I
get out?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Because under our jurisprudence, under our constitution, there is quote
equal protection under the law. In other words, one person
is not to be treated differently than another person in
our court system. So if Ben Houghton Gill walk free,
why not everybody else? That is a serious threat. Now
(17:43):
back to Ben Houghton herself, take a listen to our
cut eighteen van Houghton in her own words, and.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I put, what's happening to me? We can lay all right?
I mean Katie tried.
Speaker 13 (18:03):
To daddy and the knife was suspended, so we can't.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
And I can't remember which one of us did it.
Speaker 13 (18:13):
It would have been me, and we said, you know,
text coming it was a knife, don't dance the only.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
She was dead.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
We didn't. She didn't make any eating with me. If
Katie turned.
Speaker 14 (18:26):
To get the knife into the throat and it wouldn't go.
And I remember seeing her being fat in front of
her closet, old bloody on her stomach.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Some of those words were hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
She says, I can't remember which one of us did
at stab Rosemary. It could have been me, and we said, Text,
come here, it comes in and the knife is all bent.
Mister l Bianca was dead and Text wanted to see.
One of the other victim was making gurgling noises, and
(19:06):
another Manson cult member told Van Howton to stick the
knife in Rosemary's throat and she said it wouldn't go.
And I remember seeing her lying flat in front of
the closet, all bloody on her stomach. This is who
has just walked free. Speaking from my own personal experience,
(19:31):
it's a hurt you never get over to Anthony de
Maria when you see when you learn the one that murdered,
the one you love the most walk free, it's so
debilitating because it feels like there is no justice.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I want to hear your thoughts, Anthony.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Can I respond to that, But I'd like to circle
back to some very important points that you've made with
regard in all all the guests here, with regard to
Leslie VN. Houghton's words and what you played is the
actual Leslie Van Holten. Now, I've been to dozens of
parole hearings, six of Leslie's as a Lobianca family representative,
(20:22):
and I think it's important to a stat I would
like to share actual quotes of hers that shows the
Leslie van Houden in the parole room. And this quote,
it's I'm going to quote now in Leslie's words quote
the autopsy report verifies that there were superficial stab wounds
in the lower back of Miss LaBianca. I have consistently
(20:43):
testified and taken responsibility for those those wounds were post
mortem end quote. I want to get to this most
recent quote where she states, quote, I know it's my
responsibility that I allowed this happen to me. I take
responsibility that I allowed myself to follow him end quote.
(21:09):
These are not the words of a rehabilitated killer. These
are the tactical ruminations of a very cunning, narcissistic social path.
And as you clearly revealed, she states in these parole
hearings that she yelled out to Watson we can't kill her,
(21:31):
as if she didn't have the will to kill. But
what she actually said was in facts, we can't kill her.
The knife is all bent. So she's actually not the
passive participant that she portrays herself to be. At that point,
she actually directed Charles Watson to kill her hostage to
(21:52):
finish the kill. That is the real Leslie van Houghton.
And it is disgusting to our families that the parole
boards don't do their research enough to seek through this charade.
And it's a very despicable charade. To your other point,
when you ask about there is no justice, how does
(22:15):
it feel? There's no way for me to express that.
It's it's it's impossible. But her crimes obviously profoundly impacted
our families, but they also massively impacted the country at large.
(22:37):
And I and badly I feel that with regard to
CDCR and some of the institutions. Uh, how are how
our families feel are an afterthought? Victims are a collateral damage?
But now the impact that this release will have setting
a very dangerous, pernicious precedent.
Speaker 12 (22:59):
Mhm.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
I think it's a very important question to ask, how
does America feel about the release of Leslie ben Houghton.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about
the release of a mass killer, which is over more
than one body. I always question why Leslie vn Houghten
was not charged with the Sharon Tate murders as well.
She was living with Manson and the Manson family at
(23:42):
the time of the Tate murders. Tate heavily pregnant, begging
for her life or her unborn child's life when she
was brutally murdered.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Van Auten was there when that was planned.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
In fact, she was angry, according to co defendants, that
she was not allowed to ride along and back to
lease Will. It's akin to a bank robbery where you
and I and Jackie planned the bank robbery, planned the
whole heist, but you and I are the ones that
go in the bank and I'm the one that shoots everybody.
(24:17):
Jackie is just as culpable as we are. And I've
never understood why Van Houghton was not charged with the
Tape murders as well.
Speaker 11 (24:26):
I think she could have been, absolutely because as you say,
it's felony murder, right, even if you're not actually there,
you were part of the planning. Charles Manson wasn't actually there,
so that tells you something. But I think the legal
reason is that her lawyers argued she didn't take a
substantial step, which of course, is the standard for conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
In the last hours, Leslie van Houghton has walked free
from behind prison walls after murdering the Labbiancas and helping
to plan the sh Garant Tate murders. I want to
go to doctor Jan Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us
out of Clark County. That's Vegas, doctor Gorniac. It's a
(25:10):
real honor to have you on with us. Thank you
for being with us. We keep hearing von Hotten refer
to the fact that Rosemary was already dead when she
Manhattan stabbed Rosemary. I don't believe that that's true. In
a post mortem autopsy, how can you tell whether wounds
(25:32):
were sustained post mortem after death.
Speaker 15 (25:34):
So when I do an odutopsy, one of our jobs
is too obviously determine injuries whether they're anti mortem before
death or a post mortem after death. So in order
to determine that, we have to look at characteristics of
the wounds. So when a wound is sustained post mortem
after death, there is no swelling of the tissue, there
(25:57):
is no reading of the tissue we call erythema. So
and sometimes it looks dry and there might be minimal
hemorrhage within the within the tissue, because in order for
if it, if you're alive, when an injury is sustained,
your body's going to react to it. That's like bumping
your leg against the wall or door. Your body's going
(26:20):
to react to it and you're going to see a bruise,
or if you fall and cut yourself, it's going to
be swollen and it's going to be red. But when
a wound is sustained post mortem, that reaction doesn't happen.
So it's essentially quote unquote, a clean wound, no reddening,
no blood swelling, no obvious bleeding.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Correct does a gorniac? Could you describe what happened to
Rosemary and Lino Lambianca?
Speaker 15 (26:53):
So I was reading going back about the multiple stab wounds.
It's just and defensive defense wounds. So when you get
a defense wound, that means that you're grabbing for the
knife and then you get defense wounds on your hand.
Those are, for me, believe it or not, are the
worst injuries that I see. You know, even as a pathologist,
(27:16):
I get the willies sometimes and that's one of the
things that gives me the willies when I see the
defensive wounds, especially on the hands, and it's just you're
going to bleed out a lot of hemorrhage. But it's
not unfortunately, you know, it's sad to think about. It's
not a quick depth. So you're getting stabbed multiple times,
(27:39):
you're going to feel that you're going to be moving
and then what happens is you slowly bleed out you hemorrhage.
So it's not a quick depth, unfortunately, and you go
into shock and then you die. So it's it's the
worst cases that I do are multiple stab wom stab
(27:59):
wounds cases. And it was interesting to hear the description
of stabbing somebody. I've never heard somebody who stabbed somebody
else describe it like that. And ironically, I'm getting ready
to teach a course on Sunday on sharp force injuries,
and everybody asked, well, how much force does it take
(28:20):
to you know, stab somebody? And actually the skin is
the toughest part to get through. And so to hear
her compared to it's not like cutting meat. That's just
I've never heard that.
Speaker 16 (28:34):
It's disgusting, it is, but it but she you know,
in that description, because like I, all I say is
the skin is the toughest part of the body to
get through. And then once you get past the skin,
the you know, depending on the sharpness of the knife,
the internal organs are easily punctured. But to hear it
(28:57):
that way, we're I had to use both hands and things.
I mean, that gave me a whole new appreciation when
I see victims with multiple stablings.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
What those victims endured, Doctor Gorniac is unthinkable. Rosemary la Bianca, wife, mother,
She worked alongside her husband. They were in charge of
grocery store change owned them had worked their whole life.
(29:26):
Rosemary ends up dead, stabbed over forty times with a
pillow case over her head, strangled with a lamp cord,
her seeing her husband murdered. Guys, take a listen to
hour cut nine. If you think that Leslie van Hatten
didn't know what she was doing, listen to this. And
(29:46):
by the way, mass murder certainly did not diminish her appetite.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Listen, I said, what about the finger prints?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I listen on the lampsheet and Katie having a challenged
a life month that is, so I went and they
just went the whole bathroom all over and everything I
had touched, and we did the kitchen and just sort
of all over, which is a whole fingerprint thing because
we hadn't worn any gloves. And then Katy takes when
(30:14):
I came out of Benjamin. Then we're taking a shower,
and then after that we were hungry, and so we
went and we took some cheese and milk out of
the refreierated and we took it with us.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
They went and raided the fridge like they're having a sleepover.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
They went back and he raised all.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Of their fingerprints that they could think of, one even
taking a shower, getting rid of evidence in the victim's home,
and then raiding their fridge for a midnight feast. It's
almost more than I can take in Joining me right
now is a forensic expert host of Shattered Souls, the
(30:58):
car Barn Murders, Sure University of Florida, Karen Smith. Karen,
you and I have discussed in many cases where the perp,
the killer is so unfazed by murder, they go drive
through McDonald's or Burger King. Here, they actually go raid
(31:18):
the dead victims fridge while the victims are lying there dead, they.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Go eat the food, take the food out.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
Of the fridge right.
Speaker 9 (31:28):
That speaks to awareness, It speaks to understanding of what
they've done. Not only did they read the refrigerator, take
cheese and milk, Leslie Van Houghton admitted that she went
into Rosemary Labianca's closet and took her clothes. They also
played with the dog. They wiped down the fingerprints from
the crime scene. This is not the actions of somebody
(31:49):
who was hypnotized or under the spell of somebody else
and did what they said. She knew exactly what she
was doing. And Nancy, we have heard a lot of
information from a lot of really incredible people today that
have piecemealed this together. But if I could, I just
want to do a quick walkthrough of this crime scene
(32:11):
because of how horrific it really was. You have words
in blood scrawled on the wall, you have two victims
on the floor. A crime scene like this would take
us multiple days today. Lino LaBianca, his hands were bound
behind his back with a leather cord.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
He was helpless.
Speaker 9 (32:27):
He was stabbed twelve times, then an additional seven times
with a carving fork. That fork was left in his abdomen.
The knife was left in his neck, embedded past the
hilt that was discovered by the Medical Examiner's office. The
investigators didn't see it because a pillowcase was over his
head and an electrical cord was wrapped around his neck.
(32:48):
In his mouth, he also had a sofa cushion over
his face. The word war had been carved into his abdomen,
and Lino LaBianca not only exanguinated blood to death, he
aspirated on a own vomit before he died. Rosemary LaBianca
she was stabbed forty one times to both the front
of her body in the back, so she was defenseless
(33:09):
and according to the police reports, she attempted to crawl away.
She also had a pillowcase over her head, a lamp
cord wrapped around her neck. One of the stab wounds
nearly severed her spinal cord, and as Rosemary attempted to
get away, Leslie van Houghton admitted that she and Patricia
Crenwinkle called out to text Watson he was busy in
the living room stabbing Lino. Van Houghton told Watson that
(33:33):
she couldn't get the knife to go into her body,
and then she said she had to use her full
body weight all of her pressure to get that knife
to go in, and she turned into an animal during
the murder. Now, later on during interviews, she said that
she very gingerly stabbed Rosemary. Now, I don't know how
you do that, when the five inch knife went into
(33:53):
her body multiple times, all the way to the hilt.
And her contention that Rosemary LaBianca was dead when she
plunged the knife to her body over and over and
over and over again, that is unsubstantiated. And I think
the medical examiner will agree with me because there's no
way to tell which stab wounds than Holton inflicted and
in what order they were done. There's no evidence regarding
(34:14):
the exact moment that Rosemary LaBianca died. So that is
a moot point. And it's just one more excuse by
Leslie Van Houghton to not take responsibility for the vicious
and cool murders of innocent people.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
To Ava Roosevelt, friends of victims over at Sharon Tates
and rowand Plansky's home had been invited over herself. When
you look back, Ava Roosevelt and realize how close you
came to being murdered by the Manson family cult members,
(34:50):
what do you think.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
Well, there is for me right now, there is a big,
bigger picture here in all of this, which is, will
the release of this murder open the floodgates to release
of Patricia Kranwin coll and Tex Watsuits because these two,
(35:12):
I believe that I'm correct, two remaining members of the
Watson family who were directly involved in murdering my friends,
my dear friends, Sharon Gibbie zoidek. I mean, we went
a long way, So what is going to happen to
(35:32):
these people? Are they going to wiggle out and start
a life of freedom, basically leaving all of us and
the nation the innocent then without any closure, So I
ask all of you, what do you think will happen
(35:54):
and an aftermath of what happened to Leslie?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Anthony de Maria John as J. Sebring's nephew, director of J.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Sebring.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Cutting to the truth, Anthony, we have been told that
the Tate family is so upset, so emotionally torn up,
they can't even speak to the release of Vanhattan. When
you hear the description of what happened to the victims,
(36:29):
how do you respond?
Speaker 6 (36:31):
You know, I have the honor and privilege to know
many of the family members, and I've been in contact
with many of them, all of them that I've met
through the parole hearings. And I'd be remiss if I
didn't state that I've talked to many of the Loveyanca
family and they many of them are so devastated that
(36:56):
it's paralyzing, and others are I think themselves, but I
feel that they're here with us in this conversation, and
certainly the Tate family, the Frakowski family, the Parent family,
Shay Hinman folder I forgive me if I forget any
(37:19):
any if I admit any other but you know, there
is outrage, and there is devastation, but there is also
love and we hold on to that love or.
Speaker 12 (37:37):
Or are.
Speaker 6 (37:40):
Our family members, and I am grateful for the opportunity
to express these thoughts, as difficult as they are.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Well, you have to.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You have to keep doing it, Anthony, because you and
a few others are the only ones left that actually
are speaking for the crime victims, because clearly pardoner and
parole is not, the governor is not. Guys, I want
you to hear our cut twelve, the words of Leslie
vent houghten.
Speaker 12 (38:09):
You really want to die?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I don't I don't want to, and I don't not
want to, and then would I'd love to get out
of this.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
You know, I'd love to go back on the.
Speaker 12 (38:18):
Street, Leslie, if you could turn the clock that and
go back that night that you ask Charlie to go
along with him? Who will kill the lamb beyond? Because
although you didn't know who was going to be killed?
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Do what you do it again?
Speaker 5 (38:34):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (38:34):
I really I can't. I can't be sorry to.
Speaker 7 (38:36):
What it done.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
And like I said, I I had no control.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
How has this happened? Will News now be re elected?
What does this mean for other crime victims' families? We
wait as justice unfalls. Goodbye friend
Speaker 7 (39:00):
One,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, a cold blooded mass killer
walks free, walking amongst us, And no, the mass killer
did not scale the jailhouse walls to escape. There was
(00:26):
no elaborate plan to run free. As a matter of fact,
she walked out on her own volition and has now
turned into somewhat.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Of a media darling.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
A mass killer has walked free, and the governor practically
rolled out a red carpet. I'm talking about a Charles
Manson cult killer. I'mancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
(01:03):
you for being with us here at Foxination and Serious
sexem one eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I want you to take.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
A listen to the Charles Manson cult killer. Leslie van
Houten listened, and.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So then I'm supposed to mess her up. And I
took the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned
into an animal almost, you know.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I just completely let out on that woman's.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Bad and it felt so weird that I blew my
mind behind that you can't understand what I mean, but
blow my mind.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I mean I lost control. I went completely messed that moment.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It was hard to get through. Like when I thought stabbing,
I didn't. I didn't really have any idea in my.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Mind, no idea in my mind. I was supposed to
quote mess her up. I took the knife and I
started stabbing. I turned into an animal and more.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Listen, it's a real feelings.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
It's not even like cutting a piece of meat. It's
much tougher.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And I had to use both hands and all my pressure,
all my strength behind it to get it in. And
so once they started, the feeling was so weird that
I just kept doing it. And then I went into
the other room and I noticed that there's been things
written on the wall. There was pig and rise and
helter skelter, but I know that they were written in blood.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's not like coming a piece of meat. It's much tougher.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I had to use both hands and all my pressure
and all my strength behind it to get it in.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I just kept doing it.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You are hearing the chilling words of a mass killer
Leslie van Houghten. To the shock of many, now walking free,
she goes.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
On listen and put on and meat for him to
be the eatable off.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Dying.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
The woman down because.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
He had done it before. It was yeah, the lamp
(03:33):
cord has been.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
She jumped.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
All of a sudden she jumped up after having her
hands tied with a lamp cord. Rosemary law Beyonca's head
covered in a pillow case as she sustained.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Over forty stab wounds.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And this killer is free to the shock of the victims' families. Again,
thank you for being with us, Joining me right now
an all star panel to make sense of what we
know right now. But first to Anthony d Maria, nephew
(04:11):
of one of the Manson murder victims, director of Jay
Sabreing cutting to the truth, Anthony, thank you for being
with us. What has been the reaction of the victims'
families to Leslie vn Houghton walking free.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
Well, I've spoken with numerous of the families and we're
in a state of shock, even though we saw this
week it was announced that this is where the release
was headed. It's literally gut wrenching and mind numbing, nauseating.
But all of us I've spoken to share that we
feel a tremendous sense of betrayal, let down by the
(04:50):
justice system, and an extreme We're extremely disappointed that the
governor decided not to file an appeal that did allowed
the release of Leslie.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Also joining me in addition to the nephew of one
of the Manson murder victims, Ava Roosevelt. She had actually
been invited to share and Tate and Roman plants He's home,
and was an inch away from being murdered that night.
She's the author of The Racing Heart, available on Amazon.
(05:23):
You can find that at the Racingheart dot com. Ama,
thank you for being with us. I really paused and
thought about whether I should play for you and the listeners.
The words in her own words, Leslie van Houghton describing
(05:43):
how difficult it was to slice into the victims. But
as I've told many many juries, it's very hard to
listen to. But in order to make a true decision
or each a true verdict, you have to know the truth,
and that is the truth. What is your response to
(06:05):
Leslie Van Hotten walking free.
Speaker 7 (06:07):
It's shocking. It's an egregious egregious uh legal for power
really And I think that I just wanted to say
to the gentleman speaking before me that Jay Sebring was
a very good I'm very sorry for your lord. There
are no words by how I feel, really, and if
(06:32):
I break down, please forgive me, because I'm the tragedy,
not only of the Lablanca but also Jay C bring Gibe,
Folder Voidect and of course Sharon. The biggest picture for
me here is uh, she's walking. She's going to be
(06:52):
supported by the society and received a red carpet. Like
you said, I wish I had it in my heart
to praise. I can't because no amount of LSD at
any age would make me commit a crime like as
the word, she's accused of and convicted.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
All you know what, Ava, You're so right, not only
accused of but convicted. And at the time that Van
Houghten was convicted of multiple murders, she was sentenced to
the death penalty. Then the state of California reversed the
death penalty and her sentence was reduced to not life
without parole but life joining me again, as I mentioned,
(07:39):
an all star panel. But now to Lisa Statmann, author
of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's account of Stardom
Manson murders and a Crusade for Justice. Lisa, how did
this happen? Why did the Governor Gavin Newsom just lay
down and let Leslie Vnhatten roll all over him? He said, well,
(08:02):
you know what, I don't think the California Supreme Court
is going to keep her behind bar.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
So I just give up? Why why give up on
what's right?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think it's a couple of things, Nancy.
Speaker 8 (08:12):
If we look back, history is literally repeating itself to
when Dorstate became involved in these Pearl hearings, all the
way back in nineteen seventy eight, when Vane had nine
hundred signatures for her release, and it was right at
that moment that Dorstate, even though Leslie was not convicted
of Sharon's murder, she knew that the floodgates were going
(08:33):
to open for the rest of them. And what was
happening in that moment is that there were no DA representatives,
there was a Border Prison Terms panel that had to
do zero research on the commitment offense. Therefore they never
went over it. And as it is now, we had
(08:54):
overcrowding in prisons. And so basically what is happening is
exactly what happened in nineteen seventy eight, and sadly we
don't have the political backing that Doristate grew and nurtured
until it was a victim's Right state, and that is slowly,
slowly been flipping away. There's also the misconception of the
(09:16):
fact that she you know, at her last parole hearing,
they gave her the stipulation basically, you're qualified for parole
because you're part of your elderly and you've served more
than twenty five years in prison. That was the only
criteria that they gave her to get out.
Speaker 9 (09:35):
So while I.
Speaker 8 (09:36):
Am incredibly disappointed in Gavin Newsom for not fighting the fight,
what he is basically saying, I think is that it
is a lost cause in this moment in our state,
because we are shifting to the criminal's rights as opposed
to the victim's right.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Guys, you just heard Lisa Statman mention this Leslie van
Houghton appearing before the Pardon and Parole boards. But I
want you to hear exactly what she's saying in order
to get out. I mean, has anybody on this panel
heard Let me think of a good example. Anybody's seen
(10:16):
Ocean's eleven. Do you remember when George Clooney said everything
he was supposed to say to the Pardoner and Parole
Board about how he admits he did it, He's sorry
he did it, He'll never do it again, He's a
changed man. He was upset because his wife had left him,
which is Julia Roberts, who wouldn't be upset, and then
he gets out and does an incredible heist. Right, he
(10:38):
knew what he had to say. I'm trying to give
you an example. This happens over and over every day.
As a matter of fact. Take a listen to our
cut six. This is Sharon Tate's sister Deborhate speaking to
this exact issue on News Nation.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
She is speaking rehearsed words.
Speaker 10 (11:00):
It's part of the rehabilitation program. Is they actually teach
inmates what to say and how to handle themselves. She
has never said she was sorry in a letter or
a personal form to the Lobyanca family.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
She will cry phony.
Speaker 10 (11:18):
Tears in the courtroom saying she's sorry to the parole board,
but not to her victims' families.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Prime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, former federal prosecutor,
author of Hunting Charles Manson, LESE.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Will Lee, thank you so much for being with us, Lise.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Is that true our inmates coached on what to say
when they go up before pardon and parole?
Speaker 11 (12:02):
Nancy absolutely. And I'll give you another example when Anthony
was there. That's the Text Watson parole hearing, the last
parole hearing that he had several years ago, and I
was there as the only journalist that was allowed in.
I was with the victims, and they were petrified of
the fact that because of California law, that Text Watson
(12:22):
could get out for the same reasons that Leslie van
Holton just got out.
Speaker 8 (12:26):
Can I interject something real quick? This is Lisa Statman. Yes,
at Leslie van Holton's one of her parole hearings. You know,
they have to have a psychiatric evaluation before every hearing.
And I would like to give you a quote that
speaks to everything that you just said. This is from
a doctor McDaniel. He said, Miss van Holton possesses a
(12:46):
degree of personal term that is very convincing. The obvious
question is whether this represents poo emotional change and restructuring
of her personality or someone who is so smooth in
their manipult relations that they're barely perceptible. And I'm going
to say that that puts a nut on Lessie van Houghton.
(13:07):
And to go back to what Ava said, and is
the fact that she has never and this is a
requirement of the border prison terms for a release. She
has never taken full responsibility for her actions. She has
said I participated, She has said I gingerly stabbed Rosemary
LaBianca in the back after she was dead.
Speaker 9 (13:29):
And you know in those tapes she said she doesn't
know she's dead.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Guys, I want you to hear the words of Leslie Vanhattan. Now,
this is after Sharon Tate's sister claims, and I agree
with her that Leslie Vanhattan is simply reciting words that
she's been coached to say in order to get what
she wants, and that is released. Why is she released
(13:56):
when the victims are still in their coffins, they're still dead,
but she is out enjoying life. As a matter of fact,
has turned into a media sensation. She's like a little
pet or a mascot while they're still dead and their
families have somehow moved forward as best they can, limping
(14:19):
and hurting. And now this, but this I'm playing for you,
is how Leslie van Houghton really feels in her own words.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Take a listen to our cut eleven.
Speaker 12 (14:31):
Could you tell us how you feel now about what
happened to the blob beyond because and all the other
people that were killed.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Well, I can't really feel sorry because I did it,
and I did it.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Would there have the intention of it being right?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I heard that mister t sort of blew his mind.
You've got a yippy.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Hairdoo looking for the people that did it to his daughter.
That's so sorry for those people.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I really want to be honest. If you know, wow,
well all it is the body.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
What you were doing was right?
Speaker 12 (15:04):
And if you did it, why was it right?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
I thought it was perfectly right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No remorse what so ever. None.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
In fact, Van Houghton says, I thought it was perfectly right.
Back to Les will joining Us, author of Hunting Charles
Masnet took her two years to research and write the
book now on Amazon.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Is it true?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Van Houghton to this day has never expressed remorse.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
She admits she did it.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
She goes into gruesome details about how it was so
hard to cut human flesh, describes every single aspect of it,
we think, but never shows any remorse.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
No tears, no upset, nothing, no.
Speaker 11 (15:54):
And you hear it, they were just bodies. Can you
imagine saying that they.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
Were just bodies?
Speaker 11 (16:00):
There's no remorse it's coaching. Just as Text Watson was
coached and had to look at a list of the
victims as he rattled them up. He had to actually
look at them because he couldn't remember them. So, you know,
these people have both been coached, and the legal standard.
This is what's so terrifying to me. The legal standard
is whether she can be whether she's the danger to
(16:20):
the community. That's one of the prongs, right, Yes, I
think she still is. This person is a cult follower,
and you know, with Tex Watson and his hearing, it
was I've found Christ and I'm going to be you know,
I'm going to follow Christ. Well, he gets into a
church and does whatever the preacher says, you know, the
pastor says, you get a you know, wacko pastor or
(16:40):
preach preacher. Same thing. I mean, she gets out she's
a cult member. She's going to find another type of cult,
whatever that is in our day to day life, and
join that and do whatever that cult leader says. I mean,
it's just incredible to me that the court system didn't
see that that she is still a danger that can.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Another danger in the release of Leslie Manhaughtan is that
it releases the floodgates they're open. Now are all the
Manson killers going to be released? And because of this release?
Can other killers?
Speaker 7 (17:15):
Now?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Say? Will let Leslie vn Houghten out? Why can't I
get out?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Because under our jurisprudence, under our constitution, there is quote
equal protection under the law. In other words, one person
is not to be treated differently than another person in
our court system. So if Ben Houghton Gill walk free,
why not everybody else? That is a serious threat. Now
(17:43):
back to Ben Houghton herself, take a listen to our
cut eighteen van Houghton in her own words, and.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I put, what's happening to me? We can lay all right?
I mean Katie tried.
Speaker 13 (18:03):
To daddy and the knife was suspended, so we can't.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
And I can't remember which one of us did it.
Speaker 13 (18:13):
It would have been me, and we said, you know,
text coming it was a knife, don't dance the only.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
She was dead.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
We didn't. She didn't make any eating with me. If
Katie turned.
Speaker 14 (18:26):
To get the knife into the throat and it wouldn't go.
And I remember seeing her being fat in front of
her closet, old bloody on her stomach.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Some of those words were hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
She says, I can't remember which one of us did
at stab Rosemary. It could have been me, and we said, Text,
come here, it comes in and the knife is all bent.
Mister l Bianca was dead and Text wanted to see.
One of the other victim was making gurgling noises, and
(19:06):
another Manson cult member told Van Howton to stick the
knife in Rosemary's throat and she said it wouldn't go.
And I remember seeing her lying flat in front of
the closet, all bloody on her stomach. This is who
has just walked free. Speaking from my own personal experience,
(19:31):
it's a hurt you never get over to Anthony de
Maria when you see when you learn the one that murdered,
the one you love the most walk free, it's so
debilitating because it feels like there is no justice.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I want to hear your thoughts, Anthony.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Can I respond to that, But I'd like to circle
back to some very important points that you've made with
regard in all all the guests here, with regard to
Leslie VN. Houghton's words and what you played is the
actual Leslie Van Holten. Now, I've been to dozens of
parole hearings, six of Leslie's as a Lobianca family representative,
(20:22):
and I think it's important to a stat I would
like to share actual quotes of hers that shows the
Leslie van Houden in the parole room. And this quote,
it's I'm going to quote now in Leslie's words quote
the autopsy report verifies that there were superficial stab wounds
in the lower back of Miss LaBianca. I have consistently
(20:43):
testified and taken responsibility for those those wounds were post
mortem end quote. I want to get to this most
recent quote where she states, quote, I know it's my
responsibility that I allowed this happen to me. I take
responsibility that I allowed myself to follow him end quote.
(21:09):
These are not the words of a rehabilitated killer. These
are the tactical ruminations of a very cunning, narcissistic social path.
And as you clearly revealed, she states in these parole
hearings that she yelled out to Watson we can't kill her,
(21:31):
as if she didn't have the will to kill. But
what she actually said was in facts, we can't kill her.
The knife is all bent. So she's actually not the
passive participant that she portrays herself to be. At that point,
she actually directed Charles Watson to kill her hostage to
(21:52):
finish the kill. That is the real Leslie van Houghton.
And it is disgusting to our families that the parole
boards don't do their research enough to seek through this charade.
And it's a very despicable charade. To your other point,
when you ask about there is no justice, how does
(22:15):
it feel? There's no way for me to express that.
It's it's it's impossible. But her crimes obviously profoundly impacted
our families, but they also massively impacted the country at large.
(22:37):
And I and badly I feel that with regard to
CDCR and some of the institutions. Uh, how are how
our families feel are an afterthought? Victims are a collateral damage?
But now the impact that this release will have setting
a very dangerous, pernicious precedent.
Speaker 12 (22:59):
Mhm.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
I think it's a very important question to ask, how
does America feel about the release of Leslie ben Houghton.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about
the release of a mass killer, which is over more
than one body. I always question why Leslie vn Houghten
was not charged with the Sharon Tate murders as well.
She was living with Manson and the Manson family at
(23:42):
the time of the Tate murders. Tate heavily pregnant, begging
for her life or her unborn child's life when she
was brutally murdered.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Van Auten was there when that was planned.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
In fact, she was angry, according to co defendants, that
she was not allowed to ride along and back to
lease Will. It's akin to a bank robbery where you
and I and Jackie planned the bank robbery, planned the
whole heist, but you and I are the ones that
go in the bank and I'm the one that shoots everybody.
(24:17):
Jackie is just as culpable as we are. And I've
never understood why Van Houghton was not charged with the
Tape murders as well.
Speaker 11 (24:26):
I think she could have been, absolutely because as you say,
it's felony murder, right, even if you're not actually there,
you were part of the planning. Charles Manson wasn't actually there,
so that tells you something. But I think the legal
reason is that her lawyers argued she didn't take a
substantial step, which of course, is the standard for conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
In the last hours, Leslie van Houghton has walked free
from behind prison walls after murdering the Labbiancas and helping
to plan the sh Garant Tate murders. I want to
go to doctor Jan Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us
out of Clark County. That's Vegas, doctor Gorniac. It's a
(25:10):
real honor to have you on with us. Thank you
for being with us. We keep hearing von Hotten refer
to the fact that Rosemary was already dead when she
Manhattan stabbed Rosemary. I don't believe that that's true. In
a post mortem autopsy, how can you tell whether wounds
(25:32):
were sustained post mortem after death.
Speaker 15 (25:34):
So when I do an odutopsy, one of our jobs
is too obviously determine injuries whether they're anti mortem before
death or a post mortem after death. So in order
to determine that, we have to look at characteristics of
the wounds. So when a wound is sustained post mortem
after death, there is no swelling of the tissue, there
(25:57):
is no reading of the tissue we call erythema. So
and sometimes it looks dry and there might be minimal
hemorrhage within the within the tissue, because in order for
if it, if you're alive, when an injury is sustained,
your body's going to react to it. That's like bumping
your leg against the wall or door. Your body's going
(26:20):
to react to it and you're going to see a bruise,
or if you fall and cut yourself, it's going to
be swollen and it's going to be red. But when
a wound is sustained post mortem, that reaction doesn't happen.
So it's essentially quote unquote, a clean wound, no reddening,
no blood swelling, no obvious bleeding.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Correct does a gorniac? Could you describe what happened to
Rosemary and Lino Lambianca?
Speaker 15 (26:53):
So I was reading going back about the multiple stab wounds.
It's just and defensive defense wounds. So when you get
a defense wound, that means that you're grabbing for the
knife and then you get defense wounds on your hand.
Those are, for me, believe it or not, are the
worst injuries that I see. You know, even as a pathologist,
(27:16):
I get the willies sometimes and that's one of the
things that gives me the willies when I see the
defensive wounds, especially on the hands, and it's just you're
going to bleed out a lot of hemorrhage. But it's
not unfortunately, you know, it's sad to think about. It's
not a quick depth. So you're getting stabbed multiple times,
(27:39):
you're going to feel that you're going to be moving
and then what happens is you slowly bleed out you hemorrhage.
So it's not a quick depth, unfortunately, and you go
into shock and then you die. So it's it's the
worst cases that I do are multiple stab wom stab
(27:59):
wounds cases. And it was interesting to hear the description
of stabbing somebody. I've never heard somebody who stabbed somebody
else describe it like that. And ironically, I'm getting ready
to teach a course on Sunday on sharp force injuries,
and everybody asked, well, how much force does it take
(28:20):
to you know, stab somebody? And actually the skin is
the toughest part to get through. And so to hear
her compared to it's not like cutting meat. That's just
I've never heard that.
Speaker 16 (28:34):
It's disgusting, it is, but it but she you know,
in that description, because like I, all I say is
the skin is the toughest part of the body to
get through. And then once you get past the skin,
the you know, depending on the sharpness of the knife,
the internal organs are easily punctured. But to hear it
(28:57):
that way, we're I had to use both hands and things.
I mean, that gave me a whole new appreciation when
I see victims with multiple stablings.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
What those victims endured, Doctor Gorniac is unthinkable. Rosemary la Bianca, wife, mother,
She worked alongside her husband. They were in charge of
grocery store change owned them had worked their whole life.
(29:26):
Rosemary ends up dead, stabbed over forty times with a
pillow case over her head, strangled with a lamp cord,
her seeing her husband murdered. Guys, take a listen to
hour cut nine. If you think that Leslie van Hatten
didn't know what she was doing, listen to this. And
(29:46):
by the way, mass murder certainly did not diminish her appetite.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Listen, I said, what about the finger prints?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I listen on the lampsheet and Katie having a challenged
a life month that is, so I went and they
just went the whole bathroom all over and everything I
had touched, and we did the kitchen and just sort
of all over, which is a whole fingerprint thing because
we hadn't worn any gloves. And then Katy takes when
(30:14):
I came out of Benjamin. Then we're taking a shower,
and then after that we were hungry, and so we
went and we took some cheese and milk out of
the refreierated and we took it with us.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
They went and raided the fridge like they're having a sleepover.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
They went back and he raised all.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Of their fingerprints that they could think of, one even
taking a shower, getting rid of evidence in the victim's home,
and then raiding their fridge for a midnight feast. It's
almost more than I can take in Joining me right
now is a forensic expert host of Shattered Souls, the
(30:58):
car Barn Murders, Sure University of Florida, Karen Smith. Karen,
you and I have discussed in many cases where the perp,
the killer is so unfazed by murder, they go drive
through McDonald's or Burger King. Here, they actually go raid
(31:18):
the dead victims fridge while the victims are lying there dead, they.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Go eat the food, take the food out.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
Of the fridge right.
Speaker 9 (31:28):
That speaks to awareness, It speaks to understanding of what
they've done. Not only did they read the refrigerator, take
cheese and milk, Leslie Van Houghton admitted that she went
into Rosemary Labianca's closet and took her clothes. They also
played with the dog. They wiped down the fingerprints from
the crime scene. This is not the actions of somebody
(31:49):
who was hypnotized or under the spell of somebody else
and did what they said. She knew exactly what she
was doing. And Nancy, we have heard a lot of
information from a lot of really incredible people today that
have piecemealed this together. But if I could, I just
want to do a quick walkthrough of this crime scene
(32:11):
because of how horrific it really was. You have words
in blood scrawled on the wall, you have two victims
on the floor. A crime scene like this would take
us multiple days today. Lino LaBianca, his hands were bound
behind his back with a leather cord.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
He was helpless.
Speaker 9 (32:27):
He was stabbed twelve times, then an additional seven times
with a carving fork. That fork was left in his abdomen.
The knife was left in his neck, embedded past the
hilt that was discovered by the Medical Examiner's office. The
investigators didn't see it because a pillowcase was over his
head and an electrical cord was wrapped around his neck.
(32:48):
In his mouth, he also had a sofa cushion over
his face. The word war had been carved into his abdomen,
and Lino LaBianca not only exanguinated blood to death, he
aspirated on a own vomit before he died. Rosemary LaBianca
she was stabbed forty one times to both the front
of her body in the back, so she was defenseless
(33:09):
and according to the police reports, she attempted to crawl away.
She also had a pillowcase over her head, a lamp
cord wrapped around her neck. One of the stab wounds
nearly severed her spinal cord, and as Rosemary attempted to
get away, Leslie van Houghton admitted that she and Patricia
Crenwinkle called out to text Watson he was busy in
the living room stabbing Lino. Van Houghton told Watson that
(33:33):
she couldn't get the knife to go into her body,
and then she said she had to use her full
body weight all of her pressure to get that knife
to go in, and she turned into an animal during
the murder. Now, later on during interviews, she said that
she very gingerly stabbed Rosemary. Now, I don't know how
you do that, when the five inch knife went into
(33:53):
her body multiple times, all the way to the hilt.
And her contention that Rosemary LaBianca was dead when she
plunged the knife to her body over and over and
over and over again, that is unsubstantiated. And I think
the medical examiner will agree with me because there's no
way to tell which stab wounds than Holton inflicted and
in what order they were done. There's no evidence regarding
(34:14):
the exact moment that Rosemary LaBianca died. So that is
a moot point. And it's just one more excuse by
Leslie Van Houghton to not take responsibility for the vicious
and cool murders of innocent people.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
To Ava Roosevelt, friends of victims over at Sharon Tates
and rowand Plansky's home had been invited over herself. When
you look back, Ava Roosevelt and realize how close you
came to being murdered by the Manson family cult members,
(34:50):
what do you think.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
Well, there is for me right now, there is a big,
bigger picture here in all of this, which is, will
the release of this murder open the floodgates to release
of Patricia Kranwin coll and Tex Watsuits because these two,
(35:12):
I believe that I'm correct, two remaining members of the
Watson family who were directly involved in murdering my friends,
my dear friends, Sharon Gibbie zoidek. I mean, we went
a long way, So what is going to happen to
(35:32):
these people? Are they going to wiggle out and start
a life of freedom, basically leaving all of us and
the nation the innocent then without any closure, So I
ask all of you, what do you think will happen
(35:54):
and an aftermath of what happened to Leslie?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Anthony de Maria John as J. Sebring's nephew, director of J.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Sebring.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Cutting to the truth, Anthony, we have been told that
the Tate family is so upset, so emotionally torn up,
they can't even speak to the release of Vanhattan. When
you hear the description of what happened to the victims,
(36:29):
how do you respond?
Speaker 6 (36:31):
You know, I have the honor and privilege to know
many of the family members, and I've been in contact
with many of them, all of them that I've met
through the parole hearings. And I'd be remiss if I
didn't state that I've talked to many of the Loveyanca
family and they many of them are so devastated that
(36:56):
it's paralyzing, and others are I think themselves, but I
feel that they're here with us in this conversation, and
certainly the Tate family, the Frakowski family, the Parent family,
Shay Hinman folder I forgive me if I forget any
(37:19):
any if I admit any other but you know, there
is outrage, and there is devastation, but there is also
love and we hold on to that love or.
Speaker 12 (37:37):
Or are.
Speaker 6 (37:40):
Our family members, and I am grateful for the opportunity
to express these thoughts, as difficult as they are.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Well, you have to.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You have to keep doing it, Anthony, because you and
a few others are the only ones left that actually
are speaking for the crime victims, because clearly pardoner and
parole is not, the governor is not. Guys, I want
you to hear our cut twelve, the words of Leslie
vent houghten.
Speaker 12 (38:09):
You really want to die?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I don't I don't want to, and I don't not
want to, and then would I'd love to get out
of this.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
You know, I'd love to go back on the.
Speaker 12 (38:18):
Street, Leslie, if you could turn the clock that and
go back that night that you ask Charlie to go
along with him? Who will kill the lamb beyond? Because
although you didn't know who was going to be killed?
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Do what you do it again?
Speaker 5 (38:34):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (38:34):
I really I can't. I can't be sorry to.
Speaker 7 (38:36):
What it done.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
And like I said, I I had no control.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
How has this happened? Will News now be re elected?
What does this mean for other crime victims' families? We
wait as justice unfalls. Goodbye friend
Speaker 7 (39:00):
One,
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