Newly filed court documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley after they go missing en route to Butler's son's birthday party.
OSBI, the FBI, and the Texas County Sheriff’s Department follow cell phone pings to find a horrific scene, a 10-foot-deep hole, eight and a half miles from Butler's abandoned car, in a pasture on farmland leased by Tad Cullum.
Documents reveal investigators uncover a chest freezer, at the bottom of the hole. Once the freezer is open the search for Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley ends. Their bodies are inside the freezer along with personal items that do not belong to either of them.
Among the items are the handle of a saw, a taser, and bloody clothes including two pairs of Wrangler Blue Jeans, a black belt, and two sweatshirts. Other items found at the burial site include duct tape with possible blood, a taser/flashlight, electrical cording and tape, two ratchet straps, and a black K-Bar knife in sheath, with possible blood on it.
Inside Cora and Cole Twombly's truck, cops find a Taurus 380 handgun with a full magazine of hollow point ammunition and a live round in the chamber, stun guns, cat litter used for liquid absorption of trace evidence, biological/DNA evidence, digital photos, special scans, and all other evidence of the crime of murder.
We also learn from the new documents that Paul Grice was seen with bandages on his hand in the days after the moms' disappearance and asking incriminating questions after their bodies were recovered. Grice asked a friend how long the state lab would take to process DNA evidence and how long DNA would last in the dirt.
Grice says he is concerned about his DNA being in the hole that Butler and Kelley were found in because he had been to the Twombly residence. Grice also asks if he knows how to get a "guy and his family" into Mexico.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Alan Bennett – Former Assistant District Attorney; Partner at Gunter, Bennett, and Anthes
- Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA. Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital
- Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School
- Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Breaking news tonight just revealed the horrific details surrounding the
disappearance of two Kansas moms.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Tonight, the unthinkable were the two.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Moms bodies stuffed in an ice chest and buried fifteen
feet below the surface of a remote cow pasture? Were
they buried alive along with bloody clothes, a taser and
duct tape? Good evening, Imancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
New details emerged on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs
reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in
a buried freezer.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles
from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
What really happened to these two Kansas moms? Yes, we
can figure out they were carjacked and route to a
kid's birthday party, But how did they end up dead
or alive stuffed into an ice chest ten to fifteen
feet below the surface in a remote cow pasture. Well,
(01:20):
I'm learning a lot from these just discovered court documents
and guess what the defense wanted them sealed, and.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
They stated on the record.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Because they don't want the Nancy Grace Show to find
out about them. Well guess what we did find out
about them. That's what happens when your client is accused
of murdering two moms and burying them and an ice
chest and a cow pasture.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
What more do we know? Listen?
Speaker 5 (01:55):
Documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies of
Iroonica Butler and Jillian Kelly after they go missing en
route to a child's birthday party. Questioning relatives and friends,
investigators isolate a burial site about eight miles from where
Veronica Butler's car is found abandoned. After two long days
of digging, Veronica and Jillian are found dead, buried fifteen
feet underground inside a freezer chest. Cause of death not revealed.
(02:19):
Oklahoma law enforcement says the women's murders were absolutely brutal.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Joining me an all star panel, but first I want
to go to Chris McDonough joining US, Director of the
Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred
homicides under his belt, and now host of a YouTube channel,
The Interview Room. You can find him at Colcasefoundation dot org.
Chris McDonald. I don't know if you've ever been in
(02:45):
the horrible position of having to find bodies with ground
penetrating radar. It's it kind of looks like those metal
detectors you see people with out on the beach. But
what it shows it kind of looks like a sonogram
when you look at it. And I've handled many cases
(03:06):
that had the groundbreaking radar, and it looks like waves.
It's all black and gray. But you have to know
what you're looking for. Like on an X ray or
an ultrasound, you can actually see disturbed earth. That's what
you're looking for. Anything disturbed, anything that looks like it's
(03:27):
been moved.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
I'm just curious if you've ever had to use those.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
But in this case, let me just say, you know,
I'm not one to judge unless it's a felony.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I don't care what anybody does.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
But if it's got crime scene tape around it, I'm
all over it. These people are idiots. They left a
trail a mile wide. These two moms are found in
an ice chest ten to fifteen feet below the surface
of a cow pasture. But Chris on the top, all
(04:00):
that's a really good aerial thank you. There's fresh dirt, cement,
chucks and hey and that one area, but it still
took two days of digging.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
What do you think you.
Speaker 6 (04:13):
Know, there's that instrument that you're talking about, Nancyman, it
does It shows an anomaly within the depth of the
surface of the earth there and in this situation where
they have, you know, blocks of concrete like you're talking about.
But the biggest clue in this whole thing, obviously when
you're looking at that device, is the fact that you're
(04:35):
going to have a hard metal iea some type of
freezer that they discovered there. And I think the really
crazy part here is it's fifteen feet deep. That is
a lot of work to get that item below the earth.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Hey, you notice making me wonder Joining me in dist
Chris mcdunna, Lauren Conlin, doctor Kendall Crowns, and doctor Angela
Arnold Alan Bennet with US former assistant district attorney now
partner at Gunter Bennett and Anthus Alan. It makes me
wonder listening to Chris McDonough talking, it just occurred.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
To me, did they have this very deep hole ten to.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Fifteen feet deep? Did they have it dug before the murders.
That's a lot of pre planning because it took investigators
two days to dig down and get to that ice chest.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And I'm going to get to the.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Visual of folding over and stuffing two ladies into an
ice chest in a minute. But that leads me to premeditation.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
Alan Bennett, Oh absolutely, I think just from what little
I've seen provide the materials from your show, I think,
let's say we have an easy time establishing the pattern
in which these five people engagement is kind of I
think there's a this amount of evidence pointing toward their
conviction at this point.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Joining us again an all star panel makes sense of
what we're learning right now. Straight out to Lauren Conlin,
joining us with the latest investigative journalist, host of The
Outlier podcast. You can find her at Laurencolin dot com.
Lauren tell me the latest. These documents are dynamite. They
are gonna torpedo the defense.
Speaker 8 (06:25):
Start from the beginning, we have two cell phones found
in Cole and Cora Twombley's truck, a white iPhone and
a black iPhone. Then we have the fact that someone
else helped clean the truck.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Back it up.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I feel like making that sound when you hear a
large truck reversing going boom boom. Let's start sorry with
the ice chest.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, the ice chest with two dead bodies in it.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
They used to be young moms, last scene all the
way to a kid birthday party.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Why are they in an ice chest?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I want to talk about the excavation process. I know, Lauren,
you're an investigative reporter and you.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Go with the banner, and I get it. I hear you.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But when I hear something like two ladies fifteen feet
below the surface of a cow pasture in an ice chest,
remind me to circle back to doctor Kendall Crowns. Gosh,
you know I'm going off in all kinds of directions
because there's so much evidence right now with these two
Kansas moms. I want to ask doctor Kendall Crowns about,
now that I know they're in an ice chest, how
(07:35):
am I going to tell if they were buried dead
or alive. But back to the excavation and what you're
learning in these documents. There's a lot of them, and
we've all come through them with the fine tooth. Lauren,
about the ice chest and the discovery of Veronica Jillian's bodies.
Speaker 8 (07:55):
Yes, so it took two days to dig through this
proper and essentially we talked about a dam previously and
the bodies were found about one hundred and fifty to
two hundred yards away from this dam.
Speaker 9 (08:10):
So they dug fifteen feet.
Speaker 8 (08:13):
They found this incredibly large ice chest freezer. They call
it a trunk if you will, and unfortunately they found
Veronica and Jillian, as well as other bloody items that
did not belong to the women.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Guys, what more do we know about what happened? Now?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Another issue? Back to Alan Bennett very quickly. Alan, this
was out in the middle of a cow pasture, so
it's not as if police really needed a warrant because
this disturbed earth is in plane Zeo. But to dig
under the dirt, to be on the safe side, I
(08:56):
would think they had to have a warrant.
Speaker 10 (08:58):
Yes, no, yeah, they would need to get a warrant
or the permission of the landowner to go onto that
property and to do once they have consent. It's free range.
Speaker 11 (09:07):
But ideally, just as we saved.
Speaker 10 (09:09):
They would probably want to get consent and then probably
get a search warrant just to make absolutely sure.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Guys, take a listen to this.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
Investigators execute a search warrant at an Oklahoma cowpasture. Gillian
and Veronica's bodies are placed inside a freezer with personal
items that do not belong to Butler or Kelly. Investigators
find bloody clothes, the handle of his saw, as well
as a taser. Some appear to have blood on them,
like a pair of Wrangler blue jeans with a black belt,
a brown sweatshirt, a black hooded sweatshirt, and a second
(09:37):
pair of Wrangler blue jeans. None of the items belong
to Veronica, Butler or Jilly and Kelly.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Lauren Collin joining US investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. Lauren,
I want to talk about all these items that were found.
Which items were found stuffed into the ice chest?
Speaker 8 (09:56):
So exactly what was just stated? The jeans, the I
have a whole list. There was a ratchet strap I'm reading,
a car, heart jacket with possible blood, black cabar knife,
a great ball cap with possible blood, a pair of
cloth gloves with blood, sketcher shoes, electrical chords with tape.
(10:19):
It's it's it's disgusting, it's it's it's absolutely horrifying.
Speaker 9 (10:23):
It's something out of a horror movie.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Nancy Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Chris McDonough joining us,
a former homicide detective now host of the Interview Room.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Just think about it. Because I once had a case.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
My victim was a Jane Doe, but her killer was
a serial killer, and I believed I could get him
on one case.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I couldn't muddy.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
The water by trying to bring in any similar transactions
because if they didn't go over with the jury, it
would make them doubt.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
My case in chief.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So on one murder of a Jane Doe, I tried
this guy and there was one piece of evidence. I
thought about it and thought about it, and thought about
what does this piece of evidence prove its It's got
to be important.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It was one earring, Chris.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
One earring found in a different location near the body,
but in a different location.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
What did it prove? Then?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I found out and doctor Kendall grounds are like this,
that her ear had been ripped at the earring spot.
And I learned a lot anyway I could hypothesize from there.
Did you hear what Lauren Collin just said? She said,
And I'm looking here at the documents, bloody cloth, gloves, shoes,
(12:05):
so many things. But now from these, what can we
deduce a USB drive with pictures of a grave site,
a saw handle?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
What can I do with this?
Speaker 6 (12:20):
Well, Nancy, if I presented that to you in a
court and you have done this many many times before,
that is a tremendous amount of information and evidence that
shows a couple of things malice and forethought right an
evil intent. You have a taser that's a control mechanism.
You have clothing that's in the graveside of itself that
(12:43):
tells us okay, are the suspects or suspect you know,
eliminating their own clothing by throwing it in with the victims.
You have a what sounds like a cord of some sort,
you know, is that a strangling mechanism? You have a
k barn knife. Is that a coup to G mechanism?
Or and then you have a piece of a saw.
(13:05):
Are they trying to dismember the bodies? I mean, think
about these two innocent women stuffed in that freezer and
just think about the blood, the amount of blood that's
trapped withinside of that freezer. When the authorities discover those
two poor victims.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Hey, Hey, What about this ratchet straps that were found?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
What are ratchet straps?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
They are called tie down according to my notes that
I took tie down straps. I think of bungee cords
like I would hook our bikes to the back of
the mini van. Ratchet straps, but they're more industrial tie
down straps used to transport cargo in a vehicle. Have
you ever been behind a truck that's got a whole
(13:49):
lot of stuff in the bed and they've got a
ratchet strap holding it in. I try to get away
as quickly as possible because I'm sure they're going to
fall off onto my windshield. Why are ratchet straps in
the ice chests with the two dead bodies, typically used
to secure things to a roof rack or a truck
(14:10):
bed or elsewhere. Why did they need ratchet straps? And
are they bloody?
Speaker 11 (14:17):
You know? And that's a great question.
Speaker 6 (14:19):
And so what that indicates Possibly there could be a
third crime scene of some sort ie the abduction site.
They put this freezer in the back of some type
of transport vehicle, strap it down with that type of strap,
and then transport that to the third site where they
dump the body into a shelf One other thing I'd
(14:39):
be real curious about is what type of machinery they found,
ie a back ho or something to that effect. To
get fifteen feet down, you know it's going to take
some type of machinery like that.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Well, so bizarre, well among so many things that are
bizarre in this case. When you look at a couple
of the defendants, they actually look normal. Passed them in
the grocery store aisle, you wouldn't think anything at all.
Maybe him, he looks fairly normal. Okay, forget about the
guy with the led Zeppelin beard. No, no, I would
(15:14):
run the other way. The grandma, oh, I think meth.
But the last two, if I pass them in the
grocery store aisle, say the frozen section, I wouldn't think
anything about it. And what is so really scary about
it is that they were amongst everyone in the community
(15:37):
and no one suspected a thing. We are discussing what
we have just learned, and now I know why the
defense lawyer wanted to keep this secret. She wanted everything
under seal, so quote the Nancy gres Show wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Get a hold of it.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Guess what, little girl, I got a hold of it.
I'm want to go straight out to doctor Kendall Crown's
and talk about that.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
The fact that we now.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Know the two moms just minding their own business on
the way to a kid's birthday party. This is all
about a custody battle by the grandma. Okay, she wanted
the children. She didn't want the.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Daughter in law to have them.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
She didn't even want her own bio son, the biological
father of the children, to have them. She wanted them
and would do anything to get them, even discussed knocking
off the judge and finding out the judges route. Hey, list,
let's see the pretty picture of grandma. Okay, yeah, who
look at that. It's in her car, but it looks
(16:37):
like a glamour shot. At what is she doing orchestrating
a double murder? She knew that there would be a
friend in the car that said doctor Kendall Crowns. Guys,
let me introduce him. He is the chief medical Examiner.
That's not easy to do. First undergrad then med school,
(17:02):
then you entern, you resident, and then somehow work your
way up to becoming the chief medical Examiner Interrent County.
That's fort Worth. Never a lack of business lecturer. The
Brenett School of Medicine at TCU. Just let that sink him.
He's told me he's done. Somewhere in the vicinity of
(17:24):
ten thousand autopsies, doctor Kendall Crowns before we got this
bombshell evidence. In all of these documents, the defense tried
to keep secret. We understood that the two moms are
just buried. Why did I say just buried? Buried ten
to fifteen feet underground and a cow pasture covered with
(17:47):
about I would say a ton of soil cement chunks,
and then covered in hay. Now we know they were
stuffed into a freezer. I am telling you hell, open
your gates because these four are coming. How can I
tell now that we're not looking for dirt or particles
(18:10):
that you told me about. They could be in their nose,
in the back of their throat, going down.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
To the lungs.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
How am I going to tell now whether they were
dead or alive when they were forced crammed into an
ice bucket ice chest.
Speaker 12 (18:25):
It would actually be difficult to tell one way or
another because the ice chest would prevent any dirt from
getting into their system. So were they alive when they
put into the ice chest? It would be anybody's guests
because depending on the type of injuries they had.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
What about Okay, let me try to verbalize this. I
can't speak your league, your medical jargon. But if someone
has a blow to the head, you can see that
if even if you have to pull their scalp back
to find it. If someone is manual or ligature strangled,
you can see evidence of that. If they're shot, if
(19:04):
they're stabbed, if they're drowned, you'll find evidence of that.
But if they were alive, maybe knocked out to subdue them,
but alive when they were put in that ice chest,
wouldn't they have died of asphyxiation suffocation?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And couldn't we see at least that because if these.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Two died, go with me, I know you'll make sense
that of this thread, doctor Crown's. If they died by
suffocation asphyxiation, that will tell me they were alive when
they were put in that ice chest. Why, because there's
no process of elimination, there's no other mode of murder
(19:49):
cause of death, So how else would they have been suffocated?
If you don't find bruising on the face or around
the mouth where something was held over their face, wouldn't
it be a natural, a logical conclusion of what we
know well?
Speaker 12 (20:08):
Correct, So if they have no other physical evidence of injury,
then you can call it an.
Speaker 11 (20:13):
Asphyxiation or suffocation.
Speaker 12 (20:15):
The problem is is when people are put into freezers
and suffocate, which we do see occasionally with kids getting
in the freezers. I've even seen suicides where people get
inside a freezer and asphixiate is there is actually no
findings you can doctor Kendlecrowns.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I have never heard of suicide by freezer until right now.
So you have actually handle cases where people get into
a freezer and shut it to kill themselves.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes, so what were the findings on those bodies?
Speaker 12 (20:45):
There's no findings because the assixiation is basically you suffocate
and there's no actually injuries that you can find at autopsy. Now,
if someone's forced into a freezer and they want to
get out, you might see like hemorrhage under their fingernails
where they're trying to claw their way out or punching
their way out, But there's not going to be anything
(21:06):
necessarily that you'll see from the asphyxiation that you can
find see.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I would argue that Okay, you just said there are
no signs that they asphyxiated, that they were alive when
they got in the freezer. But I would argue that
no signs that that is a sign, because if you
would expect these two to be beaten, dead or stabbed, shot, strangled,
(21:38):
we don't see any of that. If we don't see
any of that other than a blow to the head
to subdue them.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Then what would be the cause of death? Isn't it true?
If you hold something over someone's.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Face and they resist, you're going to see some type
of evidence around the mouth or the nose where they
tried to fight back, or they bit their teeth, bit
their tongue, or the inside of their mouth, some form
of resistance.
Speaker 12 (22:03):
Yes, with a smothering where the hands placed over the mouth,
you'll get injuries on the enermy coast of the lips
from the teeth being pressed against it. You'll also see
defensive injuries where they're trying to get the arm off
of them, things of that nature. But in someone placed
in a if they're knocked out, placed them too a
refrigerator and then asphyxiated, you are correct. If there's no
(22:27):
injury that would explain why they were dead. It's a
diagnosis of exclusion, so all the other factors that could
have killed them are ruled out. That means that they
were asphyxiated or suffocated in the freezer.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And what doctor Kendall Crowns would they have endured if
they weren't completely subdued unconscious, what would they have endured
in an ice chest?
Speaker 11 (22:52):
Well, not just the ice test, but buried alive.
Speaker 12 (22:55):
So you know, you're in this freezer under a ton
of dirt, it's dark in there with another individual, the
oxygen's running low. You're panic, You're in the dark, screaming,
trying to push your way out. You can't get out,
and you're basically slowly going into unconsciousness, knowing that there
(23:15):
is no way out and that you're going.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
To die straight out to Lauren Colin, investigative journalist, host
of The Outlier podcast Lauren Kitty litter used for liquid
absorption of trace evidence, biological DNA evidence, digital photos. I'm
very curious what those digital photos are, spatial scans, What
(23:37):
do they mean by that? And all other evidence of
the crime of murder?
Speaker 8 (23:42):
Explain Yes, So let's not forget the pools of blood
found around the vehicle, which the OSBI stated in these documents,
it was either kitty litter or dry oil that was
spread all around the truck.
Speaker 9 (23:57):
So that was really really odd.
Speaker 8 (24:00):
Really, I mean, just going back to what you stated,
it was so so premeditated.
Speaker 9 (24:06):
And then as far as the spatial scanning.
Speaker 8 (24:09):
Goes, I'm just thinking to myself that maybe they're just
taking certain measurements with the evidence and everything inside that truck,
because it sounds to me that there was so much
in that truck. And let's also not forget that Cole
and Cora Twombley were the ones that stopped Veronica and
Jillian in their tracks on that highway, and god knows
(24:32):
did what to them.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, I'm going to go to
a renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,
Doctor Angela Arnold, Doctor Angie, thank you for being with us.
Also Professor Psychiatry, has taught at Emmy University and former
(25:03):
medical director of the Psychiatric Obgyan Clinic at Grady Memorial.
I can't tell you how many witnesses and defendants and
victims I found at Grady that said, doctor Angie, kitty
litter those two words have never meant to me what
(25:26):
they mean right now. Vast quantities of blood found around
the spot where these two ladies were a card act.
Can I just see the two ladies, please.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Veronica and Jillian.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
They're on their way to a kid's birthday party, as
you know, doctor Angie, you've studied this case, and suddenly
their card act.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
They're brutally attacked.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
We believe by a hammer because part of the hammer
was found near the copious blood bloodpool. And the killers
actually think ahead of time to bring kitty litter of
some sort to put on the blood to absorb the liquid.
(26:16):
And when I look at these two moms in the
prime of their lives. Between them, I think there were
six children, and I look at these four defendants, My
head is about to blow off, Doctor Angie.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Kitty litter, kitty litter, Ntzy.
Speaker 13 (26:37):
It's these two beautiful women that were simply going to
a birthday party to see her children literally drove into
a trap. And what I have to wonder is apparently
they didn't have any fear of this happening to them.
I mean, they were going to a birthday party. I'm
(26:59):
sure the mother wanted to see these kids who she
hasn't been able to see, and I'm not sure how long.
I'm sure she was aware that there was a huge
custody battle going on, but they drove to this birthday
party without any fear, and they literally drove into a
trap and were brutally murdered and then buried. And this
(27:22):
entire thing sounds like it was all planned out. And
I can't even imagine the evil, the evil that those
that group of people are made of, that they consist of,
that they could have done this to a mother of
two beautiful little children that they want custody of.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Just thinking about the malice of forethought to Alan Bennett,
former prosecutor and now law partner in Gunter Bennett and
Anthus the malice of forethought it took to imagine Veronica
and Jillian while you're at the store buying kitty letter
to so up their blood. Now, as a defense lawyer,
(28:04):
what could possibly be the comeback.
Speaker 10 (28:06):
To that we're representing any one of these individuals, Nancy,
I would be racing all the other defense attorneys to
the DA's office to express to that lead prosecutor my
client is the least culpable of all of these five.
My client is already willing and able to sit down
and cooperate to the fullest of their ability to assist
in the prosecution of these other four people. How can
(28:30):
we get this case resolved? I would be trying to
negotiate the best possibility.
Speaker 11 (28:34):
You should not cook for my client.
Speaker 10 (28:35):
And if I were the prosecutor, much like I'm sure
you would have done, Nancy, were you prossing this case,
I would say, no, there are no deals, there's no offers,
there's no negotiation. Your client wants to flee unnegotiated to
the court, so be it. We're not making any deals
on this case. Tell your client, thanks, but no thanks.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Who is Paul Griss? Trying to figure out exactly how Grice?
He looks like a fairly normal guy, got roped into
this whole thing, joining me, Lauren Colin, Lauren, who's Paul Grice?
Speaker 8 (29:08):
So, Paul Grice is very young. He's thirty one years old.
Speaker 9 (29:11):
He is a father, he is.
Speaker 8 (29:13):
A husband, and I think a lot of us were
very confused at first when the witness named him, and
it took so long for him to be arrested.
Speaker 9 (29:22):
So Nancy, what was also revealed in the most.
Speaker 8 (29:25):
Recent search warrants was how Paul was eventually arrested. So
Paul Grice was actually at Tad Collum's house when police
came to arrest Tad, and they found that Paul had
a bandaged right pinky finger and he told them that
he heard it working.
Speaker 9 (29:44):
On his pickup.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Huh huh. The part about the bandages is damning.
Speaker 14 (29:49):
Listen according to court documents, the day Tiffany Adams boyfriend
Tad Cullum is arrested at his home for the murders
of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, Paul Grise present and
FBI agents notice a bandage on his right pinky finger.
Gris tells the agents he cut it while working on
his truck. Days later, Caleb Roberts tells police he saw
(30:12):
Grice March thirty and thirty one with a bandage on
his right hand. Gris tells Roberts he cut his hand
while cutting fencing.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Well, that doesn't make sense unless he's wrapping the fencing
around his truck. That's two stories so far, but it's
not over yet.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
On April seventeenth, days after the bodies of Veronica Butler
and Jillian Kelly are dug out of a fifteen foot
deep hole. Paul Grice is at Chad Pate's house, asking
questions about DNA, such as how long would it take
the State labor process DNA evidence, how long DNA would
last in dirt, how long DNA would last on clothing
in the dirt in a fifteen foot deep hole. Griis
tells Pate he's concerned about his DNA being in the
(30:50):
hole that Butler and Kelly were found in because he
had been in the Twombleys residence. Grice also asks if
he knows how to get a guy in his family
in New Mexico.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I am so happy right now, Hey Gryce, you should
have just called in to the show and we could
have answered all those questions for you.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And then when have it on tape. Doctor Kendall krows.
Let's answer a few of those questions.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
How long does DNA last on clothing or in the dirt.
Speaker 12 (31:23):
The DNA is going to be available in the dirt
for a long time. You look at individuals buried and
then dug back up, They're able to get DNA from
them for years. So unless the actual physical item that
the DNA is on completely goes away. I think they'd
still be able to find DNA on it for quite
a while.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Okay, you know what jury's think, don't you.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Have you ever seen Jimmy what's the name of the
dinosaur movies?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
When everybody's yeah, Jurassic Park, we've seen them all.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
The jurys expect that DNA lasts for millions and millions
of years, and that you can get a piece of
DNA and basically regenerate the entire person.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Actually it's not that far off, because.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
We now know that DNA of various sorts are found,
for instance, in Egyptian tombs, and a lot of investigatory
deductions are made from that DNA, So basically forever, doctor
kendlegrowns pretty much.
Speaker 12 (32:29):
My example is the gentleman they found in the iceberg.
I think they call him, I see the iceman. They
were not only able to figure out his DNA, but
also figure out his last meal, and they determined how
he was killed. So it's there for a very long time.
And then if you're talking about DNA that's in a freezer,
which is a sealed environment that's not even going to
(32:52):
be subjected to the dirt and environmental conditions.
Speaker 11 (32:56):
It could be there as forever.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So you're answering, is DNA doctor Kennell Crowns.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I don't guess you know how to get a quote
guy and his family into Mexico, do you, because that's
Gryce's next question.
Speaker 11 (33:08):
Well, for the right price, I could figure it out.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
New details emerge on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs
reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in
a buried freezer.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles
from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Right now, I'm telling you I would hone in on Gryce, Okay,
the one who had all the stories about the injuries
to his hands, the one that was frantically asking friends,
how do I get my family into Mexico? How long
does DNA lasted the dirt? He's scared and he'll talk.
(33:51):
I don't know if i'd cut him a deal, though,
but I would definitely try to interview him. What more
do we know about this guy that could be the
weak Lee and the chain?
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Paul Grise listen.
Speaker 15 (34:03):
Thirty one year old Paul Grise mentioned as an accomplice,
but investigators interviewed him and let him go. According to
court documents, Grice was part of God's Misfits along with
Tiffany Adams and the other suspects. Cole and Cora. Twombly
allegedly blocked the road, diverting Butler and Kelly to where Adams,
Tad Cullum, and Grice were waiting. Gris claims he is
not a citizen of the USA. He is not a resident,
(34:26):
employee or citizen of the United States Government. He says
that I hereby asciverate, repudiate, and revoke my citizenship if
any ever existed with the legal fiction known as the
United States Government, USA Incorporated and any and all subsidiary corporations, State, County, City.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Not a citizen of the US government.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Okay, yeah, I totally get him on the stand. Doctor
Angela Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist at angela Arnold dot com.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
What about this guy? He's what did he say?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
He's repudiating and asseverating and revoking his citizenship if any
ever existed?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Phil Day on cross right.
Speaker 13 (35:14):
He's like the linkpin. Is he the person who possibly
set up this whold God's misfits organization.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I guess not. I just lost all faith in you. Woman.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
You think this guy, he's writing his manifestos and asking
people how long does DNA last in dirt? You think
he is the mastermind the brilliant criminal.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Seriously, did you just say that?
Speaker 11 (35:38):
Well?
Speaker 13 (35:39):
I mean, Nancy, I wonder if he's the mastermind behind
God's miss the Stars.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
You said it again?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Okay, Angela, if I may call you that. No, he's
not a mastermind of anything. Any ding dong that writes
a manifesto like this and goes around asking how does
DNA lasting dirt? Like That's not a giveaway. I did
something really bad. My DNA may end up in an
ice chest with two dead bodies. Okay, Alan Bennett, I
(36:13):
guess all of her degrees did not prepare her for
this moment. How much would you like to get this
guy on cross examination? He's totally the weak link. Go
for it.
Speaker 10 (36:22):
No, And I think that's what the doctor's point may be.
That's the scariest part of all of this is that.
Speaker 11 (36:29):
That guy is the mastermind.
Speaker 10 (36:31):
That's the guy who's deposited all the funds into this
brain trust.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Okay, you know what I'm clearly screaming out the window
on Park Avenue. Chris mcdunna joining me, Director, Cold Case Foundation,
homicide detective. He's not the mastermind. The grandma is the mastermind.
Could you please explain why this guy, mister is hewng
is DNA lasting dirt, Why he's not the mastermind?
Speaker 11 (36:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (36:58):
Great, the masterminding if anything. You know, when you thought
you've seen everything, here come the misfits. And you know
he's just one of those, you know, not the sharpest
tool on the shed for lack of a better term.
And he sounds like a sober and citizen, you know,
those guys and gals that say, hey, I'm not part
of the United States. I'm in the middle of nowhere,
(37:20):
so therefore you have no authority over me. So I
agree with you one hundred percent, Nancy. He's the weak link.
The authorities keep the pressure on him, and hopefully he's
already talked.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Okay, guys, we are waiting as this case inches forward
to trial. And here's my advice to the prosecutor. Since
nobody asked, don't take a plea. Do not take a plea.
Two ladies, mothers are dead and likely may have died
(37:54):
in that ice chest or else they had their brains
beaten out with a hammer on the highway.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Uh huh. Don't take a deal with one of them.
You don't need a deal.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Let them all stew in the same pot. We stop
to remember Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Just twenty nine, Deputy
Sheriff Tucker Blakely shot and killed responding to a domestic Knoxville, Tennessee,
US Army Vet combat medic. He has survived by a
(38:31):
grieving wife, Katerina, and his five year old little boy,
American hero, Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Let me thank all
of our guests. What a brain trust joining us today.
But I especially want to thank you for being with
us tonight and every night. Thank you to our MSM
(38:54):
viewers and family. Nancy Gray signing off good night
Speaker 14 (38:59):
Friend said to be at
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Breaking news tonight just revealed the horrific details surrounding the
disappearance of two Kansas moms.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Tonight, the unthinkable were the two.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Moms bodies stuffed in an ice chest and buried fifteen
feet below the surface of a remote cow pasture? Were
they buried alive along with bloody clothes, a taser and
duct tape? Good evening, Imancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
New details emerged on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs
reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in
a buried freezer.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles
from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
What really happened to these two Kansas moms? Yes, we
can figure out they were carjacked and route to a
kid's birthday party, But how did they end up dead
or alive stuffed into an ice chest ten to fifteen
feet below the surface in a remote cow pasture. Well,
(01:20):
I'm learning a lot from these just discovered court documents
and guess what the defense wanted them sealed, and.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
They stated on the record.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Because they don't want the Nancy Grace Show to find
out about them. Well guess what we did find out
about them. That's what happens when your client is accused
of murdering two moms and burying them and an ice
chest and a cow pasture.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
What more do we know? Listen?
Speaker 5 (01:55):
Documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies of
Iroonica Butler and Jillian Kelly after they go missing en
route to a child's birthday party. Questioning relatives and friends,
investigators isolate a burial site about eight miles from where
Veronica Butler's car is found abandoned. After two long days
of digging, Veronica and Jillian are found dead, buried fifteen
feet underground inside a freezer chest. Cause of death not revealed.
(02:19):
Oklahoma law enforcement says the women's murders were absolutely brutal.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Joining me an all star panel, but first I want
to go to Chris McDonough joining US, Director of the
Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred
homicides under his belt, and now host of a YouTube channel,
The Interview Room. You can find him at Colcasefoundation dot org.
Chris McDonald. I don't know if you've ever been in
(02:45):
the horrible position of having to find bodies with ground
penetrating radar. It's it kind of looks like those metal
detectors you see people with out on the beach. But
what it shows it kind of looks like a sonogram
when you look at it. And I've handled many cases
(03:06):
that had the groundbreaking radar, and it looks like waves.
It's all black and gray. But you have to know
what you're looking for. Like on an X ray or
an ultrasound, you can actually see disturbed earth. That's what
you're looking for. Anything disturbed, anything that looks like it's
(03:27):
been moved.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
I'm just curious if you've ever had to use those.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
But in this case, let me just say, you know,
I'm not one to judge unless it's a felony.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I don't care what anybody does.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
But if it's got crime scene tape around it, I'm
all over it. These people are idiots. They left a
trail a mile wide. These two moms are found in
an ice chest ten to fifteen feet below the surface
of a cow pasture. But Chris on the top, all
(04:00):
that's a really good aerial thank you. There's fresh dirt, cement,
chucks and hey and that one area, but it still
took two days of digging.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
What do you think you.
Speaker 6 (04:13):
Know, there's that instrument that you're talking about, Nancyman, it
does It shows an anomaly within the depth of the
surface of the earth there and in this situation where
they have, you know, blocks of concrete like you're talking about.
But the biggest clue in this whole thing, obviously when
you're looking at that device, is the fact that you're
(04:35):
going to have a hard metal iea some type of
freezer that they discovered there. And I think the really
crazy part here is it's fifteen feet deep. That is
a lot of work to get that item below the earth.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Hey, you notice making me wonder Joining me in dist
Chris mcdunna, Lauren Conlin, doctor Kendall Crowns, and doctor Angela
Arnold Alan Bennet with US former assistant district attorney now
partner at Gunter Bennett and Anthus Alan. It makes me
wonder listening to Chris McDonough talking, it just occurred.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
To me, did they have this very deep hole ten to.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Fifteen feet deep? Did they have it dug before the murders.
That's a lot of pre planning because it took investigators
two days to dig down and get to that ice chest.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And I'm going to get to the.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Visual of folding over and stuffing two ladies into an
ice chest in a minute. But that leads me to premeditation.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
Alan Bennett, Oh absolutely, I think just from what little
I've seen provide the materials from your show, I think,
let's say we have an easy time establishing the pattern
in which these five people engagement is kind of I
think there's a this amount of evidence pointing toward their
conviction at this point.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Joining us again an all star panel makes sense of
what we're learning right now. Straight out to Lauren Conlin,
joining us with the latest investigative journalist, host of The
Outlier podcast. You can find her at Laurencolin dot com.
Lauren tell me the latest. These documents are dynamite. They
are gonna torpedo the defense.
Speaker 8 (06:25):
Start from the beginning, we have two cell phones found
in Cole and Cora Twombley's truck, a white iPhone and
a black iPhone. Then we have the fact that someone
else helped clean the truck.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Back it up.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I feel like making that sound when you hear a
large truck reversing going boom boom. Let's start sorry with
the ice chest.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, the ice chest with two dead bodies in it.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
They used to be young moms, last scene all the
way to a kid birthday party.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Why are they in an ice chest?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I want to talk about the excavation process. I know, Lauren,
you're an investigative reporter and you.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Go with the banner, and I get it. I hear you.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But when I hear something like two ladies fifteen feet
below the surface of a cow pasture in an ice chest,
remind me to circle back to doctor Kendall Crowns. Gosh,
you know I'm going off in all kinds of directions
because there's so much evidence right now with these two
Kansas moms. I want to ask doctor Kendall Crowns about,
now that I know they're in an ice chest, how
(07:35):
am I going to tell if they were buried dead
or alive. But back to the excavation and what you're
learning in these documents. There's a lot of them, and
we've all come through them with the fine tooth. Lauren,
about the ice chest and the discovery of Veronica Jillian's bodies.
Speaker 8 (07:55):
Yes, so it took two days to dig through this
proper and essentially we talked about a dam previously and
the bodies were found about one hundred and fifty to
two hundred yards away from this dam.
Speaker 9 (08:10):
So they dug fifteen feet.
Speaker 8 (08:13):
They found this incredibly large ice chest freezer. They call
it a trunk if you will, and unfortunately they found
Veronica and Jillian, as well as other bloody items that
did not belong to the women.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Guys, what more do we know about what happened? Now?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Another issue? Back to Alan Bennett very quickly. Alan, this
was out in the middle of a cow pasture, so
it's not as if police really needed a warrant because
this disturbed earth is in plane Zeo. But to dig
under the dirt, to be on the safe side, I
(08:56):
would think they had to have a warrant.
Speaker 10 (08:58):
Yes, no, yeah, they would need to get a warrant
or the permission of the landowner to go onto that
property and to do once they have consent. It's free range.
Speaker 11 (09:07):
But ideally, just as we saved.
Speaker 10 (09:09):
They would probably want to get consent and then probably
get a search warrant just to make absolutely sure.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Guys, take a listen to this.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
Investigators execute a search warrant at an Oklahoma cowpasture. Gillian
and Veronica's bodies are placed inside a freezer with personal
items that do not belong to Butler or Kelly. Investigators
find bloody clothes, the handle of his saw, as well
as a taser. Some appear to have blood on them,
like a pair of Wrangler blue jeans with a black belt,
a brown sweatshirt, a black hooded sweatshirt, and a second
(09:37):
pair of Wrangler blue jeans. None of the items belong
to Veronica, Butler or Jilly and Kelly.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Lauren Collin joining US investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. Lauren,
I want to talk about all these items that were found.
Which items were found stuffed into the ice chest?
Speaker 8 (09:56):
So exactly what was just stated? The jeans, the I
have a whole list. There was a ratchet strap I'm reading,
a car, heart jacket with possible blood, black cabar knife,
a great ball cap with possible blood, a pair of
cloth gloves with blood, sketcher shoes, electrical chords with tape.
(10:19):
It's it's it's disgusting, it's it's it's absolutely horrifying.
Speaker 9 (10:23):
It's something out of a horror movie.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Nancy Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Chris McDonough joining us,
a former homicide detective now host of the Interview Room.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Just think about it. Because I once had a case.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
My victim was a Jane Doe, but her killer was
a serial killer, and I believed I could get him
on one case.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I couldn't muddy.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
The water by trying to bring in any similar transactions
because if they didn't go over with the jury, it
would make them doubt.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
My case in chief.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So on one murder of a Jane Doe, I tried
this guy and there was one piece of evidence. I
thought about it and thought about it, and thought about
what does this piece of evidence prove its It's got
to be important.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It was one earring, Chris.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
One earring found in a different location near the body,
but in a different location.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
What did it prove? Then?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I found out and doctor Kendall grounds are like this,
that her ear had been ripped at the earring spot.
And I learned a lot anyway I could hypothesize from there.
Did you hear what Lauren Collin just said? She said,
And I'm looking here at the documents, bloody cloth, gloves, shoes,
(12:05):
so many things. But now from these, what can we
deduce a USB drive with pictures of a grave site,
a saw handle?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
What can I do with this?
Speaker 6 (12:20):
Well, Nancy, if I presented that to you in a
court and you have done this many many times before,
that is a tremendous amount of information and evidence that
shows a couple of things malice and forethought right an
evil intent. You have a taser that's a control mechanism.
You have clothing that's in the graveside of itself that
(12:43):
tells us okay, are the suspects or suspect you know,
eliminating their own clothing by throwing it in with the victims.
You have a what sounds like a cord of some sort,
you know, is that a strangling mechanism? You have a
k barn knife. Is that a coup to G mechanism?
Or and then you have a piece of a saw.
(13:05):
Are they trying to dismember the bodies? I mean, think
about these two innocent women stuffed in that freezer and
just think about the blood, the amount of blood that's
trapped withinside of that freezer. When the authorities discover those
two poor victims.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Hey, Hey, What about this ratchet straps that were found?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
What are ratchet straps?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
They are called tie down according to my notes that
I took tie down straps. I think of bungee cords
like I would hook our bikes to the back of
the mini van. Ratchet straps, but they're more industrial tie
down straps used to transport cargo in a vehicle. Have
you ever been behind a truck that's got a whole
(13:49):
lot of stuff in the bed and they've got a
ratchet strap holding it in. I try to get away
as quickly as possible because I'm sure they're going to
fall off onto my windshield. Why are ratchet straps in
the ice chests with the two dead bodies, typically used
to secure things to a roof rack or a truck
(14:10):
bed or elsewhere. Why did they need ratchet straps? And
are they bloody?
Speaker 11 (14:17):
You know? And that's a great question.
Speaker 6 (14:19):
And so what that indicates Possibly there could be a
third crime scene of some sort ie the abduction site.
They put this freezer in the back of some type
of transport vehicle, strap it down with that type of strap,
and then transport that to the third site where they
dump the body into a shelf One other thing I'd
(14:39):
be real curious about is what type of machinery they found,
ie a back ho or something to that effect. To
get fifteen feet down, you know it's going to take
some type of machinery like that.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Well, so bizarre, well among so many things that are
bizarre in this case. When you look at a couple
of the defendants, they actually look normal. Passed them in
the grocery store aisle, you wouldn't think anything at all.
Maybe him, he looks fairly normal. Okay, forget about the
guy with the led Zeppelin beard. No, no, I would
(15:14):
run the other way. The grandma, oh, I think meth.
But the last two, if I pass them in the
grocery store aisle, say the frozen section, I wouldn't think
anything about it. And what is so really scary about
it is that they were amongst everyone in the community
(15:37):
and no one suspected a thing. We are discussing what
we have just learned, and now I know why the
defense lawyer wanted to keep this secret. She wanted everything
under seal, so quote the Nancy gres Show wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Get a hold of it.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Guess what, little girl, I got a hold of it.
I'm want to go straight out to doctor Kendall Crown's
and talk about that.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
The fact that we now.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Know the two moms just minding their own business on
the way to a kid's birthday party. This is all
about a custody battle by the grandma. Okay, she wanted
the children. She didn't want the.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Daughter in law to have them.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
She didn't even want her own bio son, the biological
father of the children, to have them. She wanted them
and would do anything to get them, even discussed knocking
off the judge and finding out the judges route. Hey, list,
let's see the pretty picture of grandma. Okay, yeah, who
look at that. It's in her car, but it looks
(16:37):
like a glamour shot. At what is she doing orchestrating
a double murder? She knew that there would be a
friend in the car that said doctor Kendall Crowns. Guys,
let me introduce him. He is the chief medical Examiner.
That's not easy to do. First undergrad then med school,
(17:02):
then you entern, you resident, and then somehow work your
way up to becoming the chief medical Examiner Interrent County.
That's fort Worth. Never a lack of business lecturer. The
Brenett School of Medicine at TCU. Just let that sink him.
He's told me he's done. Somewhere in the vicinity of
(17:24):
ten thousand autopsies, doctor Kendall Crowns before we got this
bombshell evidence. In all of these documents, the defense tried
to keep secret. We understood that the two moms are
just buried. Why did I say just buried? Buried ten
to fifteen feet underground and a cow pasture covered with
(17:47):
about I would say a ton of soil cement chunks,
and then covered in hay. Now we know they were
stuffed into a freezer. I am telling you hell, open
your gates because these four are coming. How can I
tell now that we're not looking for dirt or particles
(18:10):
that you told me about. They could be in their nose,
in the back of their throat, going down.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
To the lungs.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
How am I going to tell now whether they were
dead or alive when they were forced crammed into an
ice bucket ice chest.
Speaker 12 (18:25):
It would actually be difficult to tell one way or
another because the ice chest would prevent any dirt from
getting into their system. So were they alive when they
put into the ice chest? It would be anybody's guests
because depending on the type of injuries they had.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
What about Okay, let me try to verbalize this. I
can't speak your league, your medical jargon. But if someone
has a blow to the head, you can see that
if even if you have to pull their scalp back
to find it. If someone is manual or ligature strangled,
you can see evidence of that. If they're shot, if
(19:04):
they're stabbed, if they're drowned, you'll find evidence of that.
But if they were alive, maybe knocked out to subdue them,
but alive when they were put in that ice chest,
wouldn't they have died of asphyxiation suffocation?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And couldn't we see at least that because if these.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Two died, go with me, I know you'll make sense
that of this thread, doctor Crown's. If they died by
suffocation asphyxiation, that will tell me they were alive when
they were put in that ice chest. Why, because there's
no process of elimination, there's no other mode of murder
(19:49):
cause of death, So how else would they have been suffocated?
If you don't find bruising on the face or around
the mouth where something was held over their face, wouldn't
it be a natural, a logical conclusion of what we
know well?
Speaker 12 (20:08):
Correct, So if they have no other physical evidence of injury,
then you can call it an.
Speaker 11 (20:13):
Asphyxiation or suffocation.
Speaker 12 (20:15):
The problem is is when people are put into freezers
and suffocate, which we do see occasionally with kids getting
in the freezers. I've even seen suicides where people get
inside a freezer and asphixiate is there is actually no
findings you can doctor Kendlecrowns.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I have never heard of suicide by freezer until right now.
So you have actually handle cases where people get into
a freezer and shut it to kill themselves.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes, so what were the findings on those bodies?
Speaker 12 (20:45):
There's no findings because the assixiation is basically you suffocate
and there's no actually injuries that you can find at autopsy. Now,
if someone's forced into a freezer and they want to
get out, you might see like hemorrhage under their fingernails
where they're trying to claw their way out or punching
their way out, But there's not going to be anything
(21:06):
necessarily that you'll see from the asphyxiation that you can
find see.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I would argue that Okay, you just said there are
no signs that they asphyxiated, that they were alive when
they got in the freezer. But I would argue that
no signs that that is a sign, because if you
would expect these two to be beaten, dead or stabbed, shot, strangled,
(21:38):
we don't see any of that. If we don't see
any of that other than a blow to the head
to subdue them.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Then what would be the cause of death? Isn't it true?
If you hold something over someone's.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Face and they resist, you're going to see some type
of evidence around the mouth or the nose where they
tried to fight back, or they bit their teeth, bit
their tongue, or the inside of their mouth, some form
of resistance.
Speaker 12 (22:03):
Yes, with a smothering where the hands placed over the mouth,
you'll get injuries on the enermy coast of the lips
from the teeth being pressed against it. You'll also see
defensive injuries where they're trying to get the arm off
of them, things of that nature. But in someone placed
in a if they're knocked out, placed them too a
refrigerator and then asphyxiated, you are correct. If there's no
(22:27):
injury that would explain why they were dead. It's a
diagnosis of exclusion, so all the other factors that could
have killed them are ruled out. That means that they
were asphyxiated or suffocated in the freezer.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And what doctor Kendall Crowns would they have endured if
they weren't completely subdued unconscious, what would they have endured
in an ice chest?
Speaker 11 (22:52):
Well, not just the ice test, but buried alive.
Speaker 12 (22:55):
So you know, you're in this freezer under a ton
of dirt, it's dark in there with another individual, the
oxygen's running low. You're panic, You're in the dark, screaming,
trying to push your way out. You can't get out,
and you're basically slowly going into unconsciousness, knowing that there
(23:15):
is no way out and that you're going.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
To die straight out to Lauren Colin, investigative journalist, host
of The Outlier podcast Lauren Kitty litter used for liquid
absorption of trace evidence, biological DNA evidence, digital photos. I'm
very curious what those digital photos are, spatial scans, What
(23:37):
do they mean by that? And all other evidence of
the crime of murder?
Speaker 8 (23:42):
Explain Yes, So let's not forget the pools of blood
found around the vehicle, which the OSBI stated in these documents,
it was either kitty litter or dry oil that was
spread all around the truck.
Speaker 9 (23:57):
So that was really really odd.
Speaker 8 (24:00):
Really, I mean, just going back to what you stated,
it was so so premeditated.
Speaker 9 (24:06):
And then as far as the spatial scanning.
Speaker 8 (24:09):
Goes, I'm just thinking to myself that maybe they're just
taking certain measurements with the evidence and everything inside that truck,
because it sounds to me that there was so much
in that truck. And let's also not forget that Cole
and Cora Twombley were the ones that stopped Veronica and
Jillian in their tracks on that highway, and god knows
(24:32):
did what to them.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, I'm going to go to
a renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,
Doctor Angela Arnold, Doctor Angie, thank you for being with us.
Also Professor Psychiatry, has taught at Emmy University and former
(25:03):
medical director of the Psychiatric Obgyan Clinic at Grady Memorial.
I can't tell you how many witnesses and defendants and
victims I found at Grady that said, doctor Angie, kitty
litter those two words have never meant to me what
(25:26):
they mean right now. Vast quantities of blood found around
the spot where these two ladies were a card act.
Can I just see the two ladies, please.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Veronica and Jillian.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
They're on their way to a kid's birthday party, as
you know, doctor Angie, you've studied this case, and suddenly
their card act.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
They're brutally attacked.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
We believe by a hammer because part of the hammer
was found near the copious blood bloodpool. And the killers
actually think ahead of time to bring kitty litter of
some sort to put on the blood to absorb the liquid.
(26:16):
And when I look at these two moms in the
prime of their lives. Between them, I think there were
six children, and I look at these four defendants, My
head is about to blow off, Doctor Angie.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Kitty litter, kitty litter, Ntzy.
Speaker 13 (26:37):
It's these two beautiful women that were simply going to
a birthday party to see her children literally drove into
a trap. And what I have to wonder is apparently
they didn't have any fear of this happening to them.
I mean, they were going to a birthday party. I'm
(26:59):
sure the mother wanted to see these kids who she
hasn't been able to see, and I'm not sure how long.
I'm sure she was aware that there was a huge
custody battle going on, but they drove to this birthday
party without any fear, and they literally drove into a
trap and were brutally murdered and then buried. And this
(27:22):
entire thing sounds like it was all planned out. And
I can't even imagine the evil, the evil that those
that group of people are made of, that they consist of,
that they could have done this to a mother of
two beautiful little children that they want custody of.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Just thinking about the malice of forethought to Alan Bennett,
former prosecutor and now law partner in Gunter Bennett and
Anthus the malice of forethought it took to imagine Veronica
and Jillian while you're at the store buying kitty letter
to so up their blood. Now, as a defense lawyer,
(28:04):
what could possibly be the comeback.
Speaker 10 (28:06):
To that we're representing any one of these individuals, Nancy,
I would be racing all the other defense attorneys to
the DA's office to express to that lead prosecutor my
client is the least culpable of all of these five.
My client is already willing and able to sit down
and cooperate to the fullest of their ability to assist
in the prosecution of these other four people. How can
(28:30):
we get this case resolved? I would be trying to
negotiate the best possibility.
Speaker 11 (28:34):
You should not cook for my client.
Speaker 10 (28:35):
And if I were the prosecutor, much like I'm sure
you would have done, Nancy, were you prossing this case,
I would say, no, there are no deals, there's no offers,
there's no negotiation. Your client wants to flee unnegotiated to
the court, so be it. We're not making any deals
on this case. Tell your client, thanks, but no thanks.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Who is Paul Griss? Trying to figure out exactly how Grice?
He looks like a fairly normal guy, got roped into
this whole thing, joining me, Lauren Colin, Lauren, who's Paul Grice?
Speaker 8 (29:08):
So, Paul Grice is very young. He's thirty one years old.
Speaker 9 (29:11):
He is a father, he is.
Speaker 8 (29:13):
A husband, and I think a lot of us were
very confused at first when the witness named him, and
it took so long for him to be arrested.
Speaker 9 (29:22):
So Nancy, what was also revealed in the most.
Speaker 8 (29:25):
Recent search warrants was how Paul was eventually arrested. So
Paul Grice was actually at Tad Collum's house when police
came to arrest Tad, and they found that Paul had
a bandaged right pinky finger and he told them that
he heard it working.
Speaker 9 (29:44):
On his pickup.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Huh huh. The part about the bandages is damning.
Speaker 14 (29:49):
Listen according to court documents, the day Tiffany Adams boyfriend
Tad Cullum is arrested at his home for the murders
of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, Paul Grise present and
FBI agents notice a bandage on his right pinky finger.
Gris tells the agents he cut it while working on
his truck. Days later, Caleb Roberts tells police he saw
(30:12):
Grice March thirty and thirty one with a bandage on
his right hand. Gris tells Roberts he cut his hand
while cutting fencing.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Well, that doesn't make sense unless he's wrapping the fencing
around his truck. That's two stories so far, but it's
not over yet.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
On April seventeenth, days after the bodies of Veronica Butler
and Jillian Kelly are dug out of a fifteen foot
deep hole. Paul Grice is at Chad Pate's house, asking
questions about DNA, such as how long would it take
the State labor process DNA evidence, how long DNA would
last in dirt, how long DNA would last on clothing
in the dirt in a fifteen foot deep hole. Griis
tells Pate he's concerned about his DNA being in the
(30:50):
hole that Butler and Kelly were found in because he
had been in the Twombleys residence. Grice also asks if
he knows how to get a guy in his family
in New Mexico.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I am so happy right now, Hey Gryce, you should
have just called in to the show and we could
have answered all those questions for you.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And then when have it on tape. Doctor Kendall krows.
Let's answer a few of those questions.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
How long does DNA last on clothing or in the dirt.
Speaker 12 (31:23):
The DNA is going to be available in the dirt
for a long time. You look at individuals buried and
then dug back up, They're able to get DNA from
them for years. So unless the actual physical item that
the DNA is on completely goes away. I think they'd
still be able to find DNA on it for quite
a while.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Okay, you know what jury's think, don't you.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Have you ever seen Jimmy what's the name of the
dinosaur movies?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
When everybody's yeah, Jurassic Park, we've seen them all.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
The jurys expect that DNA lasts for millions and millions
of years, and that you can get a piece of
DNA and basically regenerate the entire person.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Actually it's not that far off, because.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
We now know that DNA of various sorts are found,
for instance, in Egyptian tombs, and a lot of investigatory
deductions are made from that DNA, So basically forever, doctor
kendlegrowns pretty much.
Speaker 12 (32:29):
My example is the gentleman they found in the iceberg.
I think they call him, I see the iceman. They
were not only able to figure out his DNA, but
also figure out his last meal, and they determined how
he was killed. So it's there for a very long time.
And then if you're talking about DNA that's in a freezer,
which is a sealed environment that's not even going to
(32:52):
be subjected to the dirt and environmental conditions.
Speaker 11 (32:56):
It could be there as forever.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So you're answering, is DNA doctor Kennell Crowns.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I don't guess you know how to get a quote
guy and his family into Mexico, do you, because that's
Gryce's next question.
Speaker 11 (33:08):
Well, for the right price, I could figure it out.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
New details emerge on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs
reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in
a buried freezer.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles
from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Right now, I'm telling you I would hone in on Gryce, Okay,
the one who had all the stories about the injuries
to his hands, the one that was frantically asking friends,
how do I get my family into Mexico? How long
does DNA lasted the dirt? He's scared and he'll talk.
(33:51):
I don't know if i'd cut him a deal, though,
but I would definitely try to interview him. What more
do we know about this guy that could be the
weak Lee and the chain?
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Paul Grise listen.
Speaker 15 (34:03):
Thirty one year old Paul Grise mentioned as an accomplice,
but investigators interviewed him and let him go. According to
court documents, Grice was part of God's Misfits along with
Tiffany Adams and the other suspects. Cole and Cora. Twombly
allegedly blocked the road, diverting Butler and Kelly to where Adams,
Tad Cullum, and Grice were waiting. Gris claims he is
not a citizen of the USA. He is not a resident,
(34:26):
employee or citizen of the United States Government. He says
that I hereby asciverate, repudiate, and revoke my citizenship if
any ever existed with the legal fiction known as the
United States Government, USA Incorporated and any and all subsidiary corporations, State, County, City.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Not a citizen of the US government.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Okay, yeah, I totally get him on the stand. Doctor
Angela Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist at angela Arnold dot com.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
What about this guy? He's what did he say?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
He's repudiating and asseverating and revoking his citizenship if any
ever existed?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Phil Day on cross right.
Speaker 13 (35:14):
He's like the linkpin. Is he the person who possibly
set up this whold God's misfits organization.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I guess not. I just lost all faith in you. Woman.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
You think this guy, he's writing his manifestos and asking
people how long does DNA last in dirt? You think
he is the mastermind the brilliant criminal.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Seriously, did you just say that?
Speaker 11 (35:38):
Well?
Speaker 13 (35:39):
I mean, Nancy, I wonder if he's the mastermind behind
God's miss the Stars.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
You said it again?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Okay, Angela, if I may call you that. No, he's
not a mastermind of anything. Any ding dong that writes
a manifesto like this and goes around asking how does
DNA lasting dirt? Like That's not a giveaway. I did
something really bad. My DNA may end up in an
ice chest with two dead bodies. Okay, Alan Bennett, I
(36:13):
guess all of her degrees did not prepare her for
this moment. How much would you like to get this
guy on cross examination? He's totally the weak link. Go
for it.
Speaker 10 (36:22):
No, And I think that's what the doctor's point may be.
That's the scariest part of all of this is that.
Speaker 11 (36:29):
That guy is the mastermind.
Speaker 10 (36:31):
That's the guy who's deposited all the funds into this
brain trust.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Okay, you know what I'm clearly screaming out the window
on Park Avenue. Chris mcdunna joining me, Director, Cold Case Foundation,
homicide detective. He's not the mastermind. The grandma is the mastermind.
Could you please explain why this guy, mister is hewng
is DNA lasting dirt, Why he's not the mastermind?
Speaker 11 (36:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (36:58):
Great, the masterminding if anything. You know, when you thought
you've seen everything, here come the misfits. And you know
he's just one of those, you know, not the sharpest
tool on the shed for lack of a better term.
And he sounds like a sober and citizen, you know,
those guys and gals that say, hey, I'm not part
of the United States. I'm in the middle of nowhere,
(37:20):
so therefore you have no authority over me. So I
agree with you one hundred percent, Nancy. He's the weak link.
The authorities keep the pressure on him, and hopefully he's
already talked.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Okay, guys, we are waiting as this case inches forward
to trial. And here's my advice to the prosecutor. Since
nobody asked, don't take a plea. Do not take a plea.
Two ladies, mothers are dead and likely may have died
(37:54):
in that ice chest or else they had their brains
beaten out with a hammer on the highway.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Uh huh. Don't take a deal with one of them.
You don't need a deal.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Let them all stew in the same pot. We stop
to remember Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Just twenty nine, Deputy
Sheriff Tucker Blakely shot and killed responding to a domestic Knoxville, Tennessee,
US Army Vet combat medic. He has survived by a
(38:31):
grieving wife, Katerina, and his five year old little boy,
American hero, Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Let me thank all
of our guests. What a brain trust joining us today.
But I especially want to thank you for being with
us tonight and every night. Thank you to our MSM
(38:54):
viewers and family. Nancy Gray signing off good night
Speaker 14 (38:59):
Friend said to be at
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