June 1, 2023 • 55 mins
Once you have found a spot to hunt, what is next? In this episode Jason covers the technical how to of: breaking down an area quickly to determine if elk are present, how to go about locating them, how to move in, what you should be looking for as you setup, and then how to go about calling.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome back to Cutting the Distance. Today we're going to
jump into elk hunting tactics techniques. But if you've missed
part one of this, it's preparing for elk season. That's
how do you find a tag, how do you figure
out what unit you want to hunt, how do you
find elk within that unit? And then things such as
equipment that matters, you know, getting boots broken, getting in
shape for these Western hunts, what packs may work, how
(00:33):
you go about calling biologists and get information that maybe
others aren't getting, you know, call the property owner, whether
it's force or a's PLM. That's all in Unit thirty eight.
Now we're going to jump into this, well, we're going
to talk about you've now got to spot the hunt.
We've now got to elk season, We've did our scouting,
and we're going to jump into how to put the
odds in your favor this season gets close. We're going
(00:59):
to start here like we do every episode of Cutting
the Distance, and we're gonna jump in to listener questions.
This time, I didn't have any come in as we're
kind of quickly going through these two parts. So I'm
gonna take two questions that I get a lot of
the live seminars that I do and just kind of
regurgitate them and kind of rule them into this podcast.
So I apologize. We didn't pull any questions. I just
(01:19):
decided to take two questions that we get quite often.
So as we go through here this episode. A little
bit later, we're going to talk about specific location bugles
and one question we always get as I talk about
it go into more detail on a location bugle. They
want to make sure that they're doing it right. And so,
(01:39):
in my opinion, and I want to preface this whole
entire episode with a lot of this comes from my experience,
my trial and air out in the field, a lot
of what I've did to find success, and then some things.
To be honest, I've found some of this working by
a lot of failures. I've failed more times than I've
been successful in the Elkwood. So I've learned a lot
(02:01):
of this through failures. What works the majority of time
the time, and then we just kind of run our
same program over and over and so we'll get into
that in a little bit, but more about location bugles,
and I forgot to mention if you have questions of
your own for any future podcasts, whether it's turkey hunting,
spring bear hunting, elk, whitetail, Dear, Blacktail Dear, whatever it is,
(02:24):
make sure you email us at CTD at Phelpsgame Calls
dot com, or it can reach out to us on
social media, send us a message, get ahold of us anyway,
and we'll try to get your questions included. So back
to location bugles. In my opinion, this is the bugle
I'm going to use the majority of the time. I
know I've said it over and over. Ninety percent of
(02:45):
the calls I use are probably location bugles because if
I haven't spotted elk with my binoculars or have a play,
I'm typically walking ridgelines, trail systems off trail and I'm
just letting location bugles trying to get that elk to answer.
So I use this call, and what I want to
do is I keep a two to three note high
pitched bugle. I'm not adding any growl or any voice
(03:08):
to the beginning. I'm not doing it at the end.
It's it's two to three note high pitched bugle. And
when I know I'm doing it right, when I get
the best responses is typically when I hit a pitch
or frequency that's high enough that it rings my own
ears through the bugle tube. So you're you're bugling and
it rattles my ears. But what I what I do
(03:31):
to accomplish this is, rather than on a normal bugle,
you can kind of be somewhat relaxed with your tongue
as you start, and you can google your voice or
add some voice inflection, and then you ramp up pressure
and you ramp up velocity across the latex. But on
this one, you're gonna have to start with the latex
kind of pre loaded. You're gonna have and you're gonna
(03:54):
have to apply more air right off the bat, So
you you want to kind of skip all of those
lower octaves and what we call it, it's it's fairly seamless.
But if you can imagine, dude, do do do do
do do? Do? You know you can walk up that scale.
I want to really kind of hit that that last
two or three notes on on the high pitch, and
that's it, and I want to ring it, and I
want to send that thing as loud as I can
(04:17):
and ideally ring my own ears. I just seem to
get a better response The other thing I like to
do on a location bugle is not over extended. The
purpose of a location bugle is to get a response
or be able to hear a response, and a lot
of times some of these bulls may just respond with
a quick moan or a grunt, or they may respond
(04:37):
in the middle of your call and you missed the
high pitch and you kind of get the tail end.
So I try to keep this to a two to
three second bugle maximum, Like you know, it should be effortless,
you shouldn't run out of air, and you're sending it
as loud as possible. And really what we're trying to
do is just announce your location that I'm gonna kind of,
(04:58):
in my opinion, let you know know what the elk
are doing. And what I've seen happen multiple times is
you're really just trying to say I'm a bowl over here,
wandering around looking for cows. And what you're asking is
is the real elk to give you a response. It's basically,
you know, the elk playing Marco polo, like I'm here,
you're there, and you know amongst themselves that may keep
(05:20):
your distance it maybe you know we're over here, whatever
it is. But you're literally just walking along trying to
get something to respond to your location bugle. And that's
the purpose of it. And we'll go into a more
detail once you locate one what you need to do,
or what your next place should be, or the questions
you should ask yourself. But that's kind of that location bugle,
(05:40):
what it's used for. And we're just doing it every
one hundred, two hundred yards, three hundred yards, forty yards.
And I'll dive into this a little bit. When should
you let a location bugle? In my opinion, you should
bugle anytime you believe a new elk can now hear
you from a location that you bugled. So if you
walk around a finger ridge and opens up a new
(06:00):
little pocket ahead of you, I want to bugle into
there from from the edge of the pocket, from the
middle of the pocket, from the back. And what happens
a lot of times is you will get I would say,
the majority of your bugles are going to be ahead
of you new virgin country that hasn't heard your bugle yet.
But what happens a lot of times is you will
get maybe one or two more bugle locations down and
(06:21):
a bow will answer back underneath, even closer to where
you know you had already bugled, And sometimes for one
reason or another, they don't want to identify themselves when
you're close. Maybe they couldn't hear because they're down over
the edge. Whatever it may be. It's I've had it
happen more times than not. Where I get, you know,
four or five hundred yards further away, and I'll finally
(06:43):
get a response with they're either more comfortable, whatever it
may be. So while I'm not a huge proponent of
just unpurposefullly bugling as you go through the woods, I
don't feel a location bugle can harm anything either. As
long as your calls are somewhat decent enough and sound
like real elk that are in the area, I will
I will be a goal as I move down a
(07:03):
trail there there's no real harm. You know, as long
as nothing wins you after that, you should be fine.
So that's kind of that that first question location bagles,
what I like to sound like, and then how I
use them and what I feel is going on with
the elk. And the second question we have is how
do you differentiate between if you're hunting a herd bul
(07:27):
versus a satellite bowl. And a lot of times this
question will come later on, you know, in my seminar
or or whatever, because I've explained different tactics and so
they're like, well, how do you know whether you're hunting
a herd bull or a satellite bowl? And how should
I know what tactics I should go with. So I
it's it's safer to always bet that you're hunting a
(07:48):
herd bowl. It will be a more conservative approach. You
won't do anything that will necessarily, you know, mess mess
up is your approach or your set up. A herd
bowl is going to require you to get close. I
feel like, even if you know you're you're hunting a
satellite bowl, you should still get close. And you know,
kind of the pun about cutting the distance in the
(08:10):
name of the podcast is there's two ways you can hunt.
You can do it all with your feet. You could
do it all with your calling. But what I like
to look at it's a mixed approach. I'd like to
cover as much ground with my feet and then use
the calling to really just pull them that last little bit.
And that's what I refer to as I call. But
I always assume everything is a herd bowl unless I've
identified it with my eyes or it's given me very
(08:32):
good your reason to believe it's a satellite bowl or
a bowl looking for cows and you know, let's say
it's a timber so you can't see one thing. I
like to assume it's a satellite bowl if the bull
starts to cover ground based on my first call or
anything that I've did, you know, if it's my locator call,
or if I've cow called and got a location and
(08:53):
that bowl is actively coming towards me, I'm going to
typically assume that that's a a satellite bowl. One way
to quickly tell if it's a herd bull is if
you've bugled and you've got a bagle and then you
have multiple beagles around that, I'm going to assume that
we now have a herd bowl with multiple satellite bowls
kind of shadowing the herd. The other thing, which is
(09:17):
very tough and you've got to have a somewhat trained
ear and you're still making somewhat of an assumption, is
the sound, the depth, the grow of the beagle that
you get in return. You know, a herd bowl will
typically have that guttural sound deeper, they've got deep chuckles,
(09:38):
they've got extra rasp, and this is just a generality.
You know. Some bulls have surprised us, and big bulls
have called small. But one thing I like to use
is a small bowl typically more times than not, doesn't
have the ability to sound like a big bowl. Now,
a big bull can sound like a small bowl more
often than vice versus. So we're trying to take all
(10:00):
of this into account and really use the information that
you're presented with. You know, is that olk moving, is
that elk holding? Still? Are there other bulls buggling? And
try to make an educated guess on what we're dealing
with as far as a satellite bowl or a herd bull,
and that will affect kind of our play because a
lot of times the satellite bull is more willing to
(10:21):
go to a cow or travel great distances versus a
herd bull seems to be that one that stays in
its location. But we'll kind of roll into strategy here
a little bit later on in this podcast to kind
of go over when you do know what you're dealing with,
how I would change my strategy. So once again, you
have questions for me or my guests make sure to
email us at CTD at phelpsgameclls dot com, or hit
(10:44):
us up on social media, send us messages, and we'll
do our best to get your questions included. As I'm
mentioned earlier, this is part two of a kind of
an overview of elk hunting. The first part go back
(11:07):
check out episode thirty seven. If you're looking for finding
a place to hunt, how to get tags, how to
kind of physically prepare for your hunt, you know, get
your boots in line, get a pack figured out, call biologists,
look at the units and whatnot. Go check out Unit
thirty seven. Now we're going to assume that you've did
all of those things. You've got a unit to hunt,
you've got to tag in your hand, You've you've maybe
(11:28):
did some scouting. You're going to show up during an
active hunting season, and we're going to roll into that. So,
so welcome to part two. I would call this kind
of in hunting season. Let's go figure this thing out.
So I'm going to start with maybe you've did some scouting.
Maybe you know, you know, boots on the ground scouting
not e scouting, you know where there were elk. The
(11:50):
closer you are to season, the better that data is
going to be. Of course, you know, if you found
elk and a certain drainage, you know, alpine feed area,
clear cut, whatever area may be hunting, and you've located
elk there and it was a week before season, I'd
be very confident going back there and getting on elk.
You know, during season, Mind you what pressures in the area.
(12:11):
If this is an unpressured area, I'd be one hundred
percent confident. If this area now has pressure, those elk
aren't gonna necessarily leave completely, but they may no longer
be where you found them. So keep that in mind.
You know you're scouting, no matter what is close to
season is going to be better. But you add hunting
pressure and it kind of throws a wild card everything
(12:32):
that's before you and everything you thought you knew. Where
do those elk end up? And this is another reason
I'm gonna I can't reiterate this enough. When you're scouting,
go find an area that has rubs. That is a
is a very accurate predictor of if there was similar
(12:53):
pressure in your past, similar people getting into the same
elk where they originally wanted to be versus where they
end up during the rud. Go to those places if
you were able to find them on your on your
scouting trips. It's where those elk are comfortable during the rut.
It's where they've got everything they need to get through
the rut. So go check out those areas and see
if those elk may be moved. Now, let's roll back,
(13:14):
say you're only able to get boots on the ground
a month leading up until season, I've got a lot
higher you know, I'm i'm I'm doubting that those elk
are going to be in that exact spot more so
than the week before. So now you're now dealing with
elk just naturally wanting to move based on you know,
the feed that's present where they're kind of remigrating to
(13:37):
maybe even you know, a month ahead, you're now dealing
with the bulls splitting the herds, the bulls going to
find the cows and then moving to an area that
they want to move to the rut. In addition to
the pressure on top of that, so the further away
you're scouting is from season, the more you need to
be willing to move and go go pick up and
(13:57):
find those elks. So keep that in mind. When you
show up. So I'm going to start with you. You
arrive at the trailhead, or you arrive at the road
system or the area you want to hunt. One thing
that can greatly help speed up the process of getting
back on elk so you can you can actively hunt
them and get it figured out. Is how you break
(14:19):
down an area. And we can't talk about this enough,
is the fringes. These elk, just like meal deer, like
a lot of animals that we hunt, they like to
spend a lot of their time on the fringe. And
when I consider a fringe is let's say if you're
in clearcut country, you have standing timber right next to
a logged off area, you know, four or five year
(14:41):
old area, and so you got some green up in
the clearcut and you've got timber. I would say two
hundred to three hundred yards into each side of that,
So three hundred yards into the timber, three hundred yards
out to the clearcut. The same goes for alpine subalpine breaks,
avalanche shoots, to timber breaks, whatever it may be. If
there's vegetation changes as well as terrain changes, and that
(15:02):
that vegetation is different, I want to be on those
lines three hundred yards on each. So when I show
up to an area and I need to figure out
where these elk rapp very quickly, I reassess the area
and maybe I didn't get a chance to be there,
maybe I've only e scouted it. Does it look like
what I thought it looked like from from Google Earth
(15:25):
or whatever program on X, whatever you're using. Does it
look the same. And one thing I like to do
from on X before I go on a hunt is
I will go and mark out some fringes that are
quick to hit from from the trailheader from my jump
off point, and I'm gonna go hit those first. I
identify first off, I'll identify passes and major ridge lines
(15:50):
elk even though they're in great shape, they live in
the mountains. They take the path of lease resistance. If
there's a pass or a dip in a ridge line,
I want to mark that and I want to check
that out. So when I show up to a trailhead,
I'm not aimlessly wandering through the woods hoping to stumble
into elk. I'm going to specific spots, passes and ridges,
the edges of avalanche shoots. If there's meadows scattered out.
(16:13):
I want to go check the fringes of the meadows.
Elk love to be able to feed in there at night,
get get good high quality feed, and then they bump
back into the timber for bedding. I'm gonna go check
if there's isolated water. You know, a creek in the
bottom isn't necessarily a great fringe area or or something.
Elk have the ability to get water anywhere out of
(16:35):
that drainage, so I sometimes that's like I would say,
of lesser importance meadows, isolated watering ponds, swamps, wallows, ridge lines.
And then ideally I like to jump on a ridge
so I can cover in my opinion, that lets me
cover two sides and double my area. If I'm running
(16:55):
a ridge, I can check the passes that the low
points where I'm up there, I can check for for tracks, scat,
whatever it may be. And then as we already mentioned,
I like to go check out rub areas to see
if elk are in there or or around there. So
that's how I quickly get to an area, try to
(17:15):
break it down. You know you're looking once again, tracks, scat, rubs,
et cetera. Ideally, live elk now to the tunning season.
When I scout, I don't necessarily need to see live elk.
I just need some reassurance that they're in the area.
During season, I'm looking for actual signs of elk and
so quickly break down an area. Just because elk were
(17:37):
there a week ago doesn't mean they're going to be
there now. Just because they were there last year doesn't
mean they're going to be there this year. There are
things pressure, you know, lead cows, dying off, bulls, taking
cows of different areas, whatever it may be, There may
be reasons. So I never assume just because elk we're
you know, in an area, that they're going to be
back there, and I my job, in order to be
(17:58):
successful you're in your is to quickly track these things down,
figure out where they want to be at that time,
and find them. So locating elk as far as the
actual act of locating elk, as much as I love
to call, as much as I love to hear a
bull beagle back, I will take visual location of elk
(18:18):
every day over locating with the bugle and the ways
I accomplish that early morning, mid day, late evening if
we don't have anything going we don't have action. I'm
gonna get on a high vantage point and I'm going
to look for where I think elk are going to
be feeding or where they're going to be out. You know,
if it's morning or evening, I'll start to look in
more wide open areas. If it's middle of the day,
(18:40):
I might be looking in small, little pinched up avalanche shoots.
I might be looking into a burn. I might be
looking into real small pockets where I'm just looking for elk,
you know, signs of elk to show themselves, where they
may be getting the last bite of food, where they
may be getting out of bed, because a lot of
times you can't glass into their bedding, but you might
be able to catch elk, you know, around a betting
(19:03):
area or you know pushed up you know, steep country.
A lot of times those cows love to bed on
top of trees. Whatever it may be. I'm just middle
of the day, I'm glassing different areas than I am
morning or night. I'm looking more open, high quality, wide
open feed early morning, late at evening, isolated pockets in
the middle of the day. One thing I like to do,
which sometimes overlooked, is plan a little bit where's the
(19:26):
sun rising, where's the sun setting? Yeah, you do get
some time before the sun's up and a little bit
of time after the sun's down. But I try to
even you know, orientate myself so that I've got the
sun at my back. I don't want to look into,
you know, the sun. It messes up glassing, it's hard
to see, it's hard to differentiate colors whatnot. So even
(19:47):
on my high vantage points. Yeah, first in the morning,
you probably got half an hour a good glassing in
any direction, but then the sun quickly kind of changes that.
So I even think about things like that, setting myself
off on ridges looking in certain directions because I don't
want to miss that morning glass session. So ideally visual
one great way to locate them locate bugle, which is
(20:08):
an audible method. I kind of answered that earlier in
the question. But I'm going to go walk a ridge line,
I'm going to locate bugle, just trying to get an
answer back, and then typically all wait a half hour
forty five minutes after daylight. If I can't spot anything,
I quickly want to roll into my locating bugle plan.
That my game because those bulls are more likely to
answer earlier in the morning. The more you get towards
(20:31):
the middle of the day, we've all been there, the
bugling tends to just shut itself down. So the earlier
I can get my location bugle going, the quicker I
can cover ground, the higher the likelihood of me getting
a response back. Another way to locate elk. If I'm
in an area, I know they're elk there, signed there's
fresh sign. I can smell them whatever it is throughout
the day, but for some reason or another, they're not
(20:53):
locating night locating is something we do. We'll go out
walk a ridge in the middle of the dark. We'll
take a nap in the middle of the day. If
there's some slow time or the wind isn't write whatever
we may. We may spend an hour or two after
dark locating elk. If we don't have anything located that night,
we'll get up two hours early and locate elk in
the dark. Whatever whatever we need to do to locate ELK.
(21:13):
I need to be or I want to be on
an elk every morning and every evening like that's my
goal is to at least get a play and and
and I don't want to sacrifice that prime time in
order to to to make that happen. So I'm willing
to stay up late. I'm willing to get up extra
early to make sure we're always in elk. The last
way to locate elk is still hunting. I would reserve
(21:34):
this to very good you know, a very good uh
you know, understanding of where those elk are at, and
only go in and still hunt if I know they're
bedded up in an area, maybe the elk hunt. It's
getting late in the game, and this one still you
may screwed it up for other people, but it's kind
of like your last ditch effort, which I think everybody's
gonna you know, do. You're not necessarily saving those elk
(21:55):
for anybody else, But still hunting is a high risk,
high reward to get in tight. You can pretend she
pushed those elk out of their bedding, but you can
still hunt and work your way in close. Especially we've
resorted to this at times when there's just not a
lot of biggling early in the season. Seems to be
a way we can we can kind of sneak in
and locate out. So, now that you've located elk, what's
(22:19):
your next move? Going to be And that's kind of
the question we need to ask ourselves. We need to
be educated hunters, make good decisions and feel like we've
kind of walked ourselves through everything that's going to affect
our next move. So the first thing I like to
ask myself for what are the elk doing and what
are their plans? If I wasn't to intervene, are are
(22:43):
they going from feed to betting? Are they just milling around?
And does is there a herd bowl with multiple satellites
or is there a lopsided balance? Is there like a
great herd buwl with satellites that are smaller or is
there a herd bowl that's maybe barely you know, that
(23:04):
much bigger or better or stronger than the satellite bowls
around him like that. Some of that stuff's going to
lead lead to it because the competition is different and
you know, are are they got running activity? We're looking
at all of that before we even consider our approach.
The other thing I do like to and you know,
hunting public land for elk, you always have to answer
(23:25):
this question to figure out how quick you need to
make these decisions and move is what's the pressure like
in the area are these elk going to sit here
and do what they want to do without being bothered
by somebody else before I get there? Or do I
need to move quicker? Or sometimes we may spot elk
in areas where the effort or the ability to get
(23:46):
there is so great and it's going to take us
a long time. We know there's a lot easier ways
to get in there from a different road, whatever it
may be, we may elect to leave those alone because
our chances of becoming successful or so low. So you're
asking these questions to yourself. What's the wind doing at
(24:06):
this time? Let's say at seven o'clock in the morning,
we can almost guarantee the wind's going to be going downhill,
But how long is it going to take me to
get there? If it's two hours and you're going to
be over there at nine and you know the sun's
hitting that slope all right now as I approach, the
wind's going to be potentially going uphill, how does that
change my approach? Do I need to walk a finger
(24:27):
ridge over or whatever it may be. You got to
ask yourself these questions. The other thing, if it's a
long stalk and you can't just run there and be
there in fifteen minutes. Where are those elk ultimately going
to be by time I can get there? Do you
got to get enough read on the direction they're going
or can you foresee which patch of timber they're going
to go bed in or the flat? So I'm trying
(24:47):
to figure all this out without really knowing the answer.
Unless it's elk that you've got patterned or elk that
you've got a good idea, there's only certain spots they
can get to. You're trying to figure all it out
before you take off, and then ultimately I'm already trying
to figure out a general vicinity of where I'm going
to set up when I get there. It's very tough
(25:07):
to do. It's taken a lot of time. But if
I see an elk, you know, across the way, I
know it's going to be an hour to get down
and across by that time, I think the elk should
be here my plan and a lot of times I'll
just put a waypoint on on X. Of course we
may need to make changes, but this is where I
intend to interact with the elk, you know, my ideal spot,
and then I will change from there, and that's one
(25:28):
thing in this A lot of times when we if
we have to make a stock, that's our approach is
you know, seven hundred one thousand yards away or two
thousand yards away. It's a long, long track. A lot
of times things change when you get over there, and
you might get a little confused on what finger ridge
you're on. Put an on x pin where the elk
(25:49):
are at, where you think they're going, and then that
can help you kind of just plan your route and
you don't have to second guess if you're in the
right spot or where they're going. And then ultimately we
make small little changes as we approach, and my goal
is to get as close to that bowl or his
cows as I can without getting busted. Ideally, you know
(26:14):
we talk. We coined the term shock and awe. We
use that strategy. Once we approach, I try not to
make a sound until I'm within one hundred yards. That's ideal. Now,
what helps us out and accomplishing that is if that
bull continues to bugle on his own as we approach,
(26:34):
that gives us the confidence of reassurance we can track
his movement versus if you're if you're making that approach
and you don't get a whole lot out of that elk.
You're really just having to guess on the speed that
they were in the direction they were heading and try
to make all that work. Ninety five percent of the
herd bulls will not come into calls from more than
(26:56):
one hundred and twenty hundred and fifty yards out, And
I'll explain that a little bit. But in my opinion,
needs to represent a threat to that bowl. These bulls
are out there to you know, breed, recreate, reproduce, and
they don't want to potentially lose their opportunity to breed
these cows. And so why would they willfully walk away
(27:17):
from cows when there are other satellite bowls around to
come look for this bull or cow that's calling to him.
When in nature, that bowl beagles lets the cows know
that that bowl's in the area and the cow should
walk to them. So in order to we're kind of
reversing this a little bit and creating a threat to
that bowl that I'm within his area, I'm within a
certain distance of his cows. I'm now a threat to him,
(27:39):
and he needs to come and protect you know what,
He's got his cows, his hair, and whatever it may be.
So now that we're close, let's say we've did all
this successful, We've got the wind in our face, we're
doing things right. You need to figure out where to
set up, and there's there's a lot of opinions like
what's the most important, like any one piece of this.
If you can't locate a bull, then it's the most
(28:00):
important because you don't ever get to the stage. If
you can't approach and get in the right spot to
set up, then you're never going to be in the action.
But talking to enough people it shows, and listening to
hunting stories and scenarios, I feel that setting up is
maybe one of the biggest reasons of non success or
people coming up a little bit short. Then maybe anything
(28:22):
else that we talk about when it comes to calling
an elk. So how do I set up when I
(28:43):
get to an area? Well, another thing that I like
to gauge. If we've did everything right and we've got
the wind in our face and the elker or upwind
of us, we should be able to smell elk right
elkorist thinking creator. Most of the time, as I approach,
I almost use their stink. Their stench is like a
indicator that I'm close enough or I'm getting close enough,
(29:06):
especially if they're not talking. So that's when I start
to look for spots to set up. The very first
thing I look for is these fringes. We talked about
fringes earlier, but now we're looking at it on more
of a micro you know, kind of in the micro
scale of the micro lens. We want to look for.
(29:28):
You know, it might just be groups of trees that
are sixty or seventy yards ahead of us. And if
that elk gets to that, like, are they willing to
stop because they should be able to see the cow
or the bowl also known as ourselves doing the calling.
Can they see that elk from that location and expect
for that cower bowl to come to them? Or how
(29:48):
do we prevent that? We set ourselves up next to
that break. We set ourselves up next to that terrain break,
that vegetation break, so that when that elk does get
to that hold up spot within shooting distance and we
don't run into that situation scenario where and this is
what I see A lot, you know, a lot of
people like to show me their phone on a you know,
(30:09):
somebody had a cell phone running when they were calling
an elk, and those elk holed up at sixty or
seventy yards and they they bugle a little bit, or
they hang out, maybe pace a little bit, and then
they leave. Well, I always ask those guys, like, what
do you think happened there? And in my opinion, a
lot of times that bull gets to a location where
he could see very clearly the cow, the bull that
(30:31):
should be calling to him, and doesn't see what he likes,
and we'll turn around and go back to his cows.
Or even satellite bulls will do this. They don't see
what you know, they're they're not going to walk right
in to an elk that doesn't exist. They will get
to a spot where they can see well, they should
be able to see the cow or the bull, and
they'll turn away. So I'm looking at terrain and cover,
(30:56):
and let's try to paint a picture here through words.
Let's say you have a hillside that's forty five degrees up,
fairly steeped the whole way up, and there's there's one
little bench in the middle of it. Let's say you're
calling the bowl uphill and he's coming up the hill,
but that bench is a hundred yards wide, and you
are a little hesitant because you don't want to be
(31:17):
right at the edge, But so you set up way
at the back edge of it, so you're now one
hundred yards from where that elk will be. Because you
like the spot and you got good shooting lanes or something.
But I'm here to tell you when that bowl gets
to that break where it goes flat to forty five
degrees and steps up there, a lot of times you
only get a view of his head or you know,
maybe half of his body link because he can now
see that entire flat or most of that flat. You're
(31:40):
now one hundred yards away, right, Why wouldn't we have
set up twenty to thirty yards away. He's going to
hang up with that same spot, whether you're calling from
twenty to thirty yards away from the edge or if
you're calling from eighty to one hundred yards away from
that edge. So we need to think about things like
that as well as how the vegetation. The ideal set
up is when you can kind of combine that vegetation
(32:01):
break with terrain brakes, but either one of these will
work kind of individually on their own. Terrain breaks like
I love nothing more than setting up. I've got good
shooting lanes. Let's say twenty to thirty yards in the clean,
But that bull's coming out of a giant brush pile.
He can't see. He can't really be visible. You know,
there's bits and pieces. I can see the elk coming,
(32:22):
but he can never truly see out of the brush
or the timber or whatever it may be. He's got
to get to that edge in order to identify the
elk or the bowl or the cow, whatever it may be,
whatever calling style you use, he needs to get to
there in order to see. And then ideally, if I've
set up right, I've now got a very good shot
when he gets there. The next thing I'm looking at,
(32:42):
let's say we've picked an ideal spot. Where is that
bowl most likely to come in. We're looking at trail systems,
openings in trees. You know they I don't want to
sound like Captain Obvia's here, but the bowl can't walk
through trees. He doesn't really want to walk right through
the limbs of those trees. You know. If there's small
(33:03):
gaps and openings, they're going to walk typically like we do.
They're going to try to find the path of least
resistance to get there. So I'm now looking where's that
bowl going to approach? Which direction Willy come in from?
As a right handed shooter, Once I've identified those, I
will typically put my left shoulder towards where I think
he's going to come from. And if I need to
give myself a little bit of margin of air, I
(33:26):
you know, as a right handed shooter, I can swing
you know, ninety one hundred and twenty degrees to my left.
If I try to draw my bow and swing much
to the right, I'm limited by maybe fifteen to twenty
degrees before my you know, my my shot and my
form falls apart. So I'm looking for that. I'm putting
my left shoulder towards it. And one thing, there are times,
(33:47):
so I want to point this out where i will
set up on my knees if I've got lots of
If I'm in an area where trees allow shots to
happen underneath of their bottom branches, or if they're dead,
or you know, things if branches and trees, if my
shot dictates lower, shooting to be a lot more probable
(34:09):
than getting a shot if I'm standing up. But I ideally,
if I don't believe it changes my shot opportunity. I
will typically stand up. It gives me more freedom to move.
I can grab sticks and beat trees, whatever it may be.
We'll get into tactics here in a little bit. I
prefer to stand up. Knees limits me. A lot of
times my feet go dead, my feet go to you know,
(34:29):
whatever it might beat, my legs go numb, go to sleep,
whatever it may be. And it's a lot of times
it's uncomfortable, and I'm a lot more comfortable when I
can stand. Can I move in this position without making
noise or moving brush? Avoid if possible, setting up in
the middle of a brush pile. A lot of times
people don't think about having, you know, twenty inches of arrow,
(34:50):
twenty five inches of arrow hanging out in front of
their bow or their stabilizer, or if a bowl doesn't
come in exactly where they want. It's it's very tough
to make movements. So I typically will set up in
front of a large tree, in front of a pile
of brush, and let let that break up my outline,
and and you know, don't don't set up in the
(35:11):
middle of a brush pile. I made some airs very
early on and I've had great success just trying to
blend in on the side of a tree, in front
of a tree, in front of brush. So the last
thing setting up you've got there the wind should be correct.
One thing I do want to mention is I prefer
to call bowls on on contour or slightly downhill. I
believe elk like to feel like they've got gravity on
(35:35):
their side. A bowl that may be getting into confrontation
would rather come downhill if not on contour, which also
gives you the ability to deal with some maybe some
swirling winds. It's a little bit of a conservative play.
And then the last way, but sometimes situations don't allow
anything different, is to call a bowl uphill. But if
I have my preference, that's where I like to set up,
(35:57):
to call a bowl slightly downhill or on contour. Now
we're dealing with the wind. If you set up with
the wind perfect, so let's say the wind's hitting you
directly in the nose, that's ideally a perfect wind setup
that gives you the most the highest factor of being conservative.
That bowl can now approach. You know, swing way to
the left, swing way to the right, and you've still
(36:18):
got good wind in your favor. But what I've found,
especially doing a lot of solo calling or even calling
for buddies, is if that bowl comes straight on, you're
left with the frontel shot, or you're left with that
bowl becoming a little bit nervous and turning broadside. He
doesn't typically turn broadside on his own when you've got
(36:39):
the wind too perfect. So let's use that wind to
our advantage and use it kind of as a steering wheel,
kind of a half moon wind approach. So if I
can now get that wind not being on my nose,
but let's say that wind's hitting my right cheek at
a forty five even up to a ninety degree angle
forty five, hit my right cheet, creeve my right ear,
(37:01):
so that winds hitting me in on the right side,
I can almost with very good probability now dictate or
guess that that bowl is now going to swing to
my left or the left of the caller's position. So
you can see how we can start to use that
to our own advantage where we call and maybe move
up to our left if we're not going to make
any more calling, or if we're calling for a buddy
(37:24):
or hunting partner. I would want to be down to
the right so that when that bowl does start to
half circle me and start to try to get the
wind on me, I pull him right into the shooter.
So this allows us to use the wind almost as
a steering wheel and put some unknowns into a bucket
of nones as we're as we're calling this bowl in,
(37:47):
and so as you set up, start to think about that,
if that bowl does start to circle my position a
lot of times from sixty seventy one hundred yards out,
what does this new approach now look like? Do I
have shooting lanes as he comes in on my left
or vice? Or so if if the wind's opposite coming
in on my right, think about that. Be an educated
hunter and use that to your advantage as you go
(38:09):
to set up. So earlier we talked about if we're
dealing with a herd bull versus a satellite bowl. Now
that we're set up, what's our what are we gonna call? Uh?
What's our what's our first call gonna be? And one
thing that I want to I want to start with
right out and even preface this whole conversation. This is
where we get into like individual tactics and techniques, and
(38:30):
there's there's a lot of ways to do it. You've
got guys out there that believe they understand elk language,
do a t and they can communicate with elk like
they're having a conversation. Some of those guys kill out
pretty routinely. There are guys like myself that call more
on a prescriptive, more of an attitude based calling, and
I find it to be very successful and a high
(38:52):
percentage of elk that we get to run the system
on we routinely call. And there's other guys out there.
You know, my buddy Brian Barney, Ryan Lamper. Some of
these guys that don't they do call well, Ryan calls,
Brian doesn't. But guys that don't call as much but
maybe use raking of trees and brush in in combination
(39:12):
with maybe a little bit less calling, they're also notching tag.
So I want to preface this, this is the way
I love to do it, and I want to I
want to give a little bit of why. So when
you and I'm not saying it's not as accomplished as
maybe even more accomplished, but when you kill an elk
that you've snuck in on. You didn't get to play
that chess match of me calling and interacting with the elk. Now,
(39:35):
it might be cool in its own sense that you,
you know, were able to get that close without being heard, smell, seen,
and still make a perfect shot. I'm out there. The
main reason is to interact with these elk. I love
nothing more than getting a bowl. You know, super pissed off,
eyes rolled back in his head, slobign you know, pi
and all over himself, just so pissed off at me.
(39:58):
And when he kind of turns that corner or push
us through some brush, his eyes rolled back in his
head and he hits me with that bigle from thirty
or forty yards away. That is the exact reason, all
bottled up into about ten seconds, that I'm out there
and why I love to archery elk hunt in the
rut so much. I'm out there for that experience. Yeah,
I could do it a bunch of different ways, but
that's what I want and that's why we're out there.
(40:21):
So we call and we play off of their temperament.
It's more of a I do this, he reacts this way.
Now I'm going to do this, and I'm going to
turn the temperature up on him, and it worked very,
very well. One other thing I want to talk about
before we get into actual calling tactics is don't get
hung up on being the absolute best caller. Yes, it
can help you gain volume, it can help you sound
(40:43):
more realistic, it can help you mimic elk, but all
oaks sound different. And there's been a few times where
real elk if really kind of got me or confused
me a little bit. I was ready to balance out
of a situation because I didn't want to feel like
I was being called in by somebody or give them
any of my energy, your effort. And you know, sure
(41:04):
as heck, those elk came right in what I thought
was a human. So so you don't have to be
the best elk caller ever. So let's say we know
we're on a herd bowl. We've confirmed it. We can
see cows, we can see herd bulls. He's he's doing
herd bowl things. Rounding up. What I like to do
is get close. We mentioned earlier, I want to be
(41:24):
within one hundred yards. I always make sure before I call,
especially in these close close quarters, you want to make
sure you've got your Aaron ocht and you've got your
release either on your bow or hooked up before you
start making calls. Sometimes this has happened very fast, where
(41:45):
elk for one reason or another come in very quickly,
very aggressively, and or happened very often that at the
time you set up, you couldn't see the bowl, but
maybe they're heading your direction, and within a second or
two he's now got a wide open he's got you pegged,
he knows where you're at, and his eyeballs are on
you or other cows are on you eyeball, so you
may not be able to get a chance to move
(42:07):
after that, So always be ready to shoot. So I
like to paint the scene that this bowl and he's
got a lot of work, right, He's got a lot
of times multiple cows, you know, smaller herds, I'd say
three four five, you know some of the bigger herds.
Some of these bulls are trying to run thirty forty
cows at once, and it becomes a full time job,
especially when you've got satellite bulls harassing them or kind
(42:30):
of pestering him. He's got a lot of work surrounding
his cows. So to paint this scene I want to
basically be a cow on the edge of his herd,
and I'm going to use some estrasty calls, some more wines,
you know, so your your typical cow call, Yeah, just
a mew an estrass wine is more up and down. Yeah.
So what I'm trying to let him do right off
(42:52):
the bat is that there's a cow on the edge
of your herd that you no longer have in your eyesight,
you have control over. And then very quickly after that,
I'm going to let a challenge bogle. Basically, I'm saying,
you have a cow on the edge of your herd
that needs some attention, but there's this new bowl that's
now right there on top of her. And a lot
of times why they're trying to we've set up this
(43:15):
you know, fight or flight type mentality during the run.
A lot of times you can take advantage of that
because that bold doesn't want to leave the opportunity to
breed that cow, pro create and whatnot. And I like
to use the analogy of what we're doing is is
let's say I'm I'm in a restaurant. Me and my
wife are eating in the back booth of a restaurant.
(43:38):
And why we get so close. And it's kind of
this shock and awe approach. If a guy walks in
the front door of the restaurant and yells my name
and some profanities or whatever he's gonna yell at and
basically say, I'm gonna take your wife, you know whatever,
you tick me off, whatever it may be, I've got
the opportunity, when you're that far away to just walk
out the back door, maybe maybe deflect, maybe get away
(43:59):
from the situation. So this is a lot of times
the biggest air hunters make is they call their way
into a setup, and that bull is not interested in
losing his cows. As a bull approaches, so we want
to be very very quiet, and so by painting this scene,
he's got a cow that's in need, and all of
a sudden, this bull hammers. He's made is he's been
able to approach silently and all of a sudden he's there.
(44:21):
A lot of times this is enough to turn that
bull's temperature up very very quickly, and a lot of
times that's been the only two calls I've had to make.
You can start to hear brush break, you can start
to hear approaches and a lot of times that's all
we need if we've got close enough. There are times
where you get in a little bit of a battle
where you need to pull that bowl off of the herd,
or you may need to follow him. And so if
(44:43):
we get into too much calling, I ideally want that
bull to make the next call after I've made those two.
If he does, I mimic him, or I walk right
on top of his bugle. So I typically have my
bugle handy. As soon as he bugles, I'm right back
on top of him, and I don't let him ever quote,
you know, kind of finish his his what he wants
(45:04):
to say. I'm always walking on top of him. I'm
always mimicking what he has to say, and I'm trying
to turn that temperature dial up, you know, turn his
dermos that make it higher and higher. So he's getting frustrated,
more angry, and and ideally he will continue to call,
and I will walk on top of him. I don't
necessarily want to control the conversation by me, by me talking,
(45:25):
but if I need to, if forty five seconds to
a minute, minute and a half's gone by and I
haven't heard Elk moving, I haven't heard other beagles. I
haven't heard other cow sillens. I will kind of see
what we need to do, and during this if this
is where mimicry comes in. If if this bowl's screaming,
I will scream back out of him. If he's got
a guttural grunt with some chuckles, I will do the
(45:47):
same thing. And I'll try to and I'll kind of
roll with that through the next uh, through the next
call and the next call, and try to amplify that
and really just get him more upset and more upset.
And one thing. We a lot of times there are
multiple setups in order to get a bowl to turn,
you know. So sometimes it works on the first try.
(46:07):
Sometimes we need to move sixty seventy yards closer, or
that bowl will semi round up his cows and take
them in the opposite direction. As long as we've got
the wind right, we will move sixty seventy yards vegetation
and train allowing and reset up. So really we're just
trying to gauge him. And if if I get that
(46:28):
little bit of time between the estrous cow call and
let's say the bugle, the challenge bugle, that I'm kind
of throwing the whole kitchen sink at him. If that
bull hammers my cal call, I may just stay with
that and this and this is herd bowl tactics. Only
is being very aggressive with the bugle. Will now kind
of go into the satellite bowl. I know I'm dealing
(46:49):
with the satellite bowl. I will go to lots of
heavy sexy cow calling. There's no need to necessarily use
a bugle in this situation. If he's bonding the cow calls,
I'm going to stay with him. If I feel like
I'm losing him, I may throw in like a little
moan bugle to let him know like an immature bull's
got some cows down in here, but never really just
(47:10):
blast them with the herd bulls sound. Because these bulls
have established a pecking order, they kind of know based
on bugle what's what. And so we'll typically throw lots
of sexy cow calling at them. And we've been able
to call elkin and burns where we've been able to
watch as we throw more cow calls at him, the
faster that bull will move through. So we've got enough.
You almost can't cal call enough. You stop cal calling,
(47:32):
he'll slow down. You pick it up and that bowl
will approach faster. But with this said, I basically said,
there's these prescriptive, cookie cutter approaches, but I know as
soon as I go out in the field, I'm never
just doing these. These are kind of the standard that
we build off of. Let's say I'm walking along a
trail and I get a whiff of elk coming up
(47:53):
the hill and there's a nice little pocket or a
bench down there, I may elect to just cow call
a mune, not even an estress wine, nothing, just to yeah,
if I get a bowl to answer that, and I move,
Let's say I can't move far, but I go eighty
yards for the down the hill, and the bowl answers
that I don't even need to know if it's a
herd bull or a satellite bowl at that. If he's
(48:14):
being responsive and seems like he's approaching to a calcol,
I would be you know, it would be kind of
a stupid play for me to change to one of
my scenes or one of my prescriptions that I typically
call in. I'm gonna go ahead and stick with that
calmw until it doesn't work or until that bowl doesn't
get there, and then maybe, you know, escalate it to
a estress, wine or whatever it may be, but use
(48:36):
what works out there. People get too hung up on
doing things a specific or a certain way, or hey
I read this on the internet that I need to
do this, or it worked that one time. I think
one of the things that makes you a good l
hunter or somebody that finds success more times than not
is the ability to quickly reduce what the situation is
(48:57):
and what you need to do as far as sounds
you need to make. There are certain situations where I'm
just like this thing, elk doesn't care what I say
to him. He's only beagling every five or ten minutes
on his own. If that's the case, like I need
to shut up, I need to be more aggressive, I
need to use more spot in stock techniques. I need
to get in close and then maybe call when I
get closer, and then if it doesn't work, then then
you may need to finish it off with spot in stock.
(49:19):
So it's just being an educated hunter that kind of
knows what to do. And so I've kind of got
like the you know, the steal a cow scene where
there's that cow on the edge of the herd, a
new bowl shows up. He's there to take care care
of and you know, breed that cow and then satellite
bowl lots of sexy cow. But really just do what's working.
(49:40):
The other thing I like to take into account is
what's going on out in the elk woods without us intervening.
Are these elk super talkative? Does this bowl have a
lot of satellites around like those herd dynamics of the
area and the time, and the percent of cows that
are currently in estress. All of that plays into you
(50:01):
how talkative the elk are going to be. What my
response should be, And so I like to just let
the situation, the information I know, kind of call my
next move, even though we're pretty prescriptive and I need
to be able to adjust to what's happening in front
of me right now. And a lot of times we
get asked Solover's partner strategy. I mentioned you we use
(50:23):
the wind a little bit different. A lot of times
we can throw throw those callers up in front. But
this isn't like some of the old truth videos I
got to watch grown up. You know, public land elk,
you can't typically set that caller one hundred yards back
because you've now just disrupted that that threat bubble, or
that that elk's ability to walk away from his cows,
that his for sure thing to come find this new
(50:46):
cow that showed up, that that's not coming his direction.
So when we when we do partner strategies, our partners
typically in our hip pocket. And the other reason I
like to do that is a lot of times the
shooter's got a better you know, he's got better optics
of this situation and how it's playing out and what
the bull is doing, and we can relay. We can
give hand signs back to our caller. Hey, maybe you
(51:07):
do need to fade back because he's now hung up
at seventy yards, like we didn't make a good enough
decision on his hang up point, or like, man, this
thing is just tearing up brush. Every time you hit
a bugle like beagle a little bit more or more
frequently versus stay away from cal calls, whatever it may be,
we can at least communicate. And one other thing I
(51:27):
like to add to the calling natural sounds is brush breaking.
I always always set up with a tree branch it's
you know, two two and a half three inches in
diameter next to me, and ideally, if the if the
spot allows I want to be next to a tree
with with dry bark or broken you know, dried out
(51:49):
limbs that I can just beat the heck out of
and create that that imitation, because a lot of bulls,
as we call them in especially on what I would say,
your your longer call ins that that take a little
more time to develop. That bull will typically find a
tree somewhere between you and him the rake and kind
of show off his dominance and get his horn, you know,
put his scent down on that tree, whatever it may be,
(52:11):
establishing his area. We like to mimic that, and if
you can beat the heck out of a tree, it
just adds to the realism of the situation that yeah,
there's a bull bugling, but he's also raking, and it
kind of puts all that together. So that's really I mean,
as much as I would like to say calling is
(52:32):
a it is very important to my success and getting
the game started. As far as how you call, elkin,
I feel your setup, in your approach or so much more,
so much more important to the outcome and your success
than the actual calling. And it's really just taking their temperature.
Does this call work? Yes or no? And I guess
(52:52):
I should say in certain situations, there's level of threats, right,
like a big challenge beagle like right in the bulls
is probably the highest level of threat you can throw
at them right out of the gate, versus a kafir calmew,
very non threatening, very just elk communicating to each other
versus like, hey, let's maybe do a spike squeal or
(53:15):
an immature bowl bugle and then you may be a
squeal and then maybe some moans and maybe some chuckles.
Like there are ways to build up to the full blown,
you know, challenge bugle that you're gonna throw at them.
And so there are times where if the rout doesn't
seem to be just going crazy and maybe the challenge
bugle isn't the right thing, I might I might just
(53:35):
start at a lower threat level and then slowly build.
So that's kind of my strategy. I highly recommend to everybody, like,
go find a strategy, a system that you like, and
put it to use. But that that's going to kind
of wrap it up on part two of the elk
hunting this is a little bit different. This is kind
(53:56):
of what I go through during my seminars a little
bit semi you know, We've reduced it a little bit
so it can it can fit in the confines of
a podcast. But that is really my strategy. It's really
really simple. Like people want to overcomplicate it, they want
to make it so you have to read books and
books on how to do this, and I honestly keep
it very, very simple. We run the same thing over
(54:17):
and over the progressions, and I think you go out
there and put some of this to use and be
confident in your approach, be confident in your calling. You're
gonna find some success this year. So thanks a lot
listening to part two of el Hunting. Good luck to
everybody out there, and once again you have questions for us,
feel free to email us at ctdapp colbsgamecalls dot com.
(54:40):
Thank you very much for listening.
Welcome back to Cutting the Distance. Today we're going to
jump into elk hunting tactics techniques. But if you've missed
part one of this, it's preparing for elk season. That's
how do you find a tag, how do you figure
out what unit you want to hunt, how do you
find elk within that unit? And then things such as
equipment that matters, you know, getting boots broken, getting in
shape for these Western hunts, what packs may work, how
(00:33):
you go about calling biologists and get information that maybe
others aren't getting, you know, call the property owner, whether
it's force or a's PLM. That's all in Unit thirty eight.
Now we're going to jump into this, well, we're going
to talk about you've now got to spot the hunt.
We've now got to elk season, We've did our scouting,
and we're going to jump into how to put the
odds in your favor this season gets close. We're going
(00:59):
to start here like we do every episode of Cutting
the Distance, and we're gonna jump in to listener questions.
This time, I didn't have any come in as we're
kind of quickly going through these two parts. So I'm
gonna take two questions that I get a lot of
the live seminars that I do and just kind of
regurgitate them and kind of rule them into this podcast.
So I apologize. We didn't pull any questions. I just
(01:19):
decided to take two questions that we get quite often.
So as we go through here this episode. A little
bit later, we're going to talk about specific location bugles
and one question we always get as I talk about
it go into more detail on a location bugle. They
want to make sure that they're doing it right. And so,
(01:39):
in my opinion, and I want to preface this whole
entire episode with a lot of this comes from my experience,
my trial and air out in the field, a lot
of what I've did to find success, and then some things.
To be honest, I've found some of this working by
a lot of failures. I've failed more times than I've
been successful in the Elkwood. So I've learned a lot
(02:01):
of this through failures. What works the majority of time
the time, and then we just kind of run our
same program over and over and so we'll get into
that in a little bit, but more about location bugles,
and I forgot to mention if you have questions of
your own for any future podcasts, whether it's turkey hunting,
spring bear hunting, elk, whitetail, Dear, Blacktail Dear, whatever it is,
(02:24):
make sure you email us at CTD at Phelpsgame Calls
dot com, or it can reach out to us on
social media, send us a message, get ahold of us anyway,
and we'll try to get your questions included. So back
to location bugles. In my opinion, this is the bugle
I'm going to use the majority of the time. I
know I've said it over and over. Ninety percent of
(02:45):
the calls I use are probably location bugles because if
I haven't spotted elk with my binoculars or have a play,
I'm typically walking ridgelines, trail systems off trail and I'm
just letting location bugles trying to get that elk to answer.
So I use this call, and what I want to
do is I keep a two to three note high
pitched bugle. I'm not adding any growl or any voice
(03:08):
to the beginning. I'm not doing it at the end.
It's it's two to three note high pitched bugle. And
when I know I'm doing it right, when I get
the best responses is typically when I hit a pitch
or frequency that's high enough that it rings my own
ears through the bugle tube. So you're you're bugling and
it rattles my ears. But what I what I do
(03:31):
to accomplish this is, rather than on a normal bugle,
you can kind of be somewhat relaxed with your tongue
as you start, and you can google your voice or
add some voice inflection, and then you ramp up pressure
and you ramp up velocity across the latex. But on
this one, you're gonna have to start with the latex
kind of pre loaded. You're gonna have and you're gonna
(03:54):
have to apply more air right off the bat, So
you you want to kind of skip all of those
lower octaves and what we call it, it's it's fairly seamless.
But if you can imagine, dude, do do do do
do do? Do? You know you can walk up that scale.
I want to really kind of hit that that last
two or three notes on on the high pitch, and
that's it, and I want to ring it, and I
want to send that thing as loud as I can
(04:17):
and ideally ring my own ears. I just seem to
get a better response The other thing I like to
do on a location bugle is not over extended. The
purpose of a location bugle is to get a response
or be able to hear a response, and a lot
of times some of these bulls may just respond with
a quick moan or a grunt, or they may respond
(04:37):
in the middle of your call and you missed the
high pitch and you kind of get the tail end.
So I try to keep this to a two to
three second bugle maximum, Like you know, it should be effortless,
you shouldn't run out of air, and you're sending it
as loud as possible. And really what we're trying to
do is just announce your location that I'm gonna kind of,
(04:58):
in my opinion, let you know know what the elk
are doing. And what I've seen happen multiple times is
you're really just trying to say I'm a bowl over here,
wandering around looking for cows. And what you're asking is
is the real elk to give you a response. It's basically,
you know, the elk playing Marco polo, like I'm here,
you're there, and you know amongst themselves that may keep
(05:20):
your distance it maybe you know we're over here, whatever
it is. But you're literally just walking along trying to
get something to respond to your location bugle. And that's
the purpose of it. And we'll go into a more
detail once you locate one what you need to do,
or what your next place should be, or the questions
you should ask yourself. But that's kind of that location bugle,
(05:40):
what it's used for. And we're just doing it every
one hundred, two hundred yards, three hundred yards, forty yards.
And I'll dive into this a little bit. When should
you let a location bugle? In my opinion, you should
bugle anytime you believe a new elk can now hear
you from a location that you bugled. So if you
walk around a finger ridge and opens up a new
(06:00):
little pocket ahead of you, I want to bugle into
there from from the edge of the pocket, from the
middle of the pocket, from the back. And what happens
a lot of times is you will get I would say,
the majority of your bugles are going to be ahead
of you new virgin country that hasn't heard your bugle yet.
But what happens a lot of times is you will
get maybe one or two more bugle locations down and
(06:21):
a bow will answer back underneath, even closer to where
you know you had already bugled, And sometimes for one
reason or another, they don't want to identify themselves when
you're close. Maybe they couldn't hear because they're down over
the edge. Whatever it may be. It's I've had it
happen more times than not. Where I get, you know,
four or five hundred yards further away, and I'll finally
(06:43):
get a response with they're either more comfortable, whatever it
may be. So while I'm not a huge proponent of
just unpurposefullly bugling as you go through the woods, I
don't feel a location bugle can harm anything either. As
long as your calls are somewhat decent enough and sound
like real elk that are in the area, I will
I will be a goal as I move down a
(07:03):
trail there there's no real harm. You know, as long
as nothing wins you after that, you should be fine.
So that's kind of that that first question location bagles,
what I like to sound like, and then how I
use them and what I feel is going on with
the elk. And the second question we have is how
do you differentiate between if you're hunting a herd bul
(07:27):
versus a satellite bowl. And a lot of times this
question will come later on, you know, in my seminar
or or whatever, because I've explained different tactics and so
they're like, well, how do you know whether you're hunting
a herd bull or a satellite bowl? And how should
I know what tactics I should go with. So I
it's it's safer to always bet that you're hunting a
(07:48):
herd bowl. It will be a more conservative approach. You
won't do anything that will necessarily, you know, mess mess
up is your approach or your set up. A herd
bowl is going to require you to get close. I
feel like, even if you know you're you're hunting a
satellite bowl, you should still get close. And you know,
kind of the pun about cutting the distance in the
(08:10):
name of the podcast is there's two ways you can hunt.
You can do it all with your feet. You could
do it all with your calling. But what I like
to look at it's a mixed approach. I'd like to
cover as much ground with my feet and then use
the calling to really just pull them that last little bit.
And that's what I refer to as I call. But
I always assume everything is a herd bowl unless I've
identified it with my eyes or it's given me very
(08:32):
good your reason to believe it's a satellite bowl or
a bowl looking for cows and you know, let's say
it's a timber so you can't see one thing. I
like to assume it's a satellite bowl if the bull
starts to cover ground based on my first call or
anything that I've did, you know, if it's my locator call,
or if I've cow called and got a location and
(08:53):
that bowl is actively coming towards me, I'm going to
typically assume that that's a a satellite bowl. One way
to quickly tell if it's a herd bull is if
you've bugled and you've got a bagle and then you
have multiple beagles around that, I'm going to assume that
we now have a herd bowl with multiple satellite bowls
kind of shadowing the herd. The other thing, which is
(09:17):
very tough and you've got to have a somewhat trained
ear and you're still making somewhat of an assumption, is
the sound, the depth, the grow of the beagle that
you get in return. You know, a herd bowl will
typically have that guttural sound deeper, they've got deep chuckles,
(09:38):
they've got extra rasp, and this is just a generality.
You know. Some bulls have surprised us, and big bulls
have called small. But one thing I like to use
is a small bowl typically more times than not, doesn't
have the ability to sound like a big bowl. Now,
a big bull can sound like a small bowl more
often than vice versus. So we're trying to take all
(10:00):
of this into account and really use the information that
you're presented with. You know, is that olk moving, is
that elk holding? Still? Are there other bulls buggling? And
try to make an educated guess on what we're dealing
with as far as a satellite bowl or a herd bull,
and that will affect kind of our play because a
lot of times the satellite bull is more willing to
(10:21):
go to a cow or travel great distances versus a
herd bull seems to be that one that stays in
its location. But we'll kind of roll into strategy here
a little bit later on in this podcast to kind
of go over when you do know what you're dealing with,
how I would change my strategy. So once again, you
have questions for me or my guests make sure to
email us at CTD at phelpsgameclls dot com, or hit
(10:44):
us up on social media, send us messages, and we'll
do our best to get your questions included. As I'm
mentioned earlier, this is part two of a kind of
an overview of elk hunting. The first part go back
(11:07):
check out episode thirty seven. If you're looking for finding
a place to hunt, how to get tags, how to
kind of physically prepare for your hunt, you know, get
your boots in line, get a pack figured out, call biologists,
look at the units and whatnot. Go check out Unit
thirty seven. Now we're going to assume that you've did
all of those things. You've got a unit to hunt,
you've got to tag in your hand, You've you've maybe
(11:28):
did some scouting. You're going to show up during an
active hunting season, and we're going to roll into that. So,
so welcome to part two. I would call this kind
of in hunting season. Let's go figure this thing out.
So I'm going to start with maybe you've did some scouting.
Maybe you know, you know, boots on the ground scouting
not e scouting, you know where there were elk. The
(11:50):
closer you are to season, the better that data is
going to be. Of course, you know, if you found
elk and a certain drainage, you know, alpine feed area,
clear cut, whatever area may be hunting, and you've located
elk there and it was a week before season, I'd
be very confident going back there and getting on elk.
You know, during season, Mind you what pressures in the area.
(12:11):
If this is an unpressured area, I'd be one hundred
percent confident. If this area now has pressure, those elk
aren't gonna necessarily leave completely, but they may no longer
be where you found them. So keep that in mind.
You know you're scouting, no matter what is close to
season is going to be better. But you add hunting
pressure and it kind of throws a wild card everything
(12:32):
that's before you and everything you thought you knew. Where
do those elk end up? And this is another reason
I'm gonna I can't reiterate this enough. When you're scouting,
go find an area that has rubs. That is a
is a very accurate predictor of if there was similar
(12:53):
pressure in your past, similar people getting into the same
elk where they originally wanted to be versus where they
end up during the rud. Go to those places if
you were able to find them on your on your
scouting trips. It's where those elk are comfortable during the rut.
It's where they've got everything they need to get through
the rut. So go check out those areas and see
if those elk may be moved. Now, let's roll back,
(13:14):
say you're only able to get boots on the ground
a month leading up until season, I've got a lot
higher you know, I'm i'm I'm doubting that those elk
are going to be in that exact spot more so
than the week before. So now you're now dealing with
elk just naturally wanting to move based on you know,
the feed that's present where they're kind of remigrating to
(13:37):
maybe even you know, a month ahead, you're now dealing
with the bulls splitting the herds, the bulls going to
find the cows and then moving to an area that
they want to move to the rut. In addition to
the pressure on top of that, so the further away
you're scouting is from season, the more you need to
be willing to move and go go pick up and
(13:57):
find those elks. So keep that in mind. When you
show up. So I'm going to start with you. You
arrive at the trailhead, or you arrive at the road
system or the area you want to hunt. One thing
that can greatly help speed up the process of getting
back on elk so you can you can actively hunt
them and get it figured out. Is how you break
(14:19):
down an area. And we can't talk about this enough,
is the fringes. These elk, just like meal deer, like
a lot of animals that we hunt, they like to
spend a lot of their time on the fringe. And
when I consider a fringe is let's say if you're
in clearcut country, you have standing timber right next to
a logged off area, you know, four or five year
(14:41):
old area, and so you got some green up in
the clearcut and you've got timber. I would say two
hundred to three hundred yards into each side of that,
So three hundred yards into the timber, three hundred yards
out to the clearcut. The same goes for alpine subalpine breaks,
avalanche shoots, to timber breaks, whatever it may be. If
there's vegetation changes as well as terrain changes, and that
(15:02):
that vegetation is different, I want to be on those
lines three hundred yards on each. So when I show
up to an area and I need to figure out
where these elk rapp very quickly, I reassess the area
and maybe I didn't get a chance to be there,
maybe I've only e scouted it. Does it look like
what I thought it looked like from from Google Earth
(15:25):
or whatever program on X, whatever you're using. Does it
look the same. And one thing I like to do
from on X before I go on a hunt is
I will go and mark out some fringes that are
quick to hit from from the trailheader from my jump
off point, and I'm gonna go hit those first. I
identify first off, I'll identify passes and major ridge lines
(15:50):
elk even though they're in great shape, they live in
the mountains. They take the path of lease resistance. If
there's a pass or a dip in a ridge line,
I want to mark that and I want to check
that out. So when I show up to a trailhead,
I'm not aimlessly wandering through the woods hoping to stumble
into elk. I'm going to specific spots, passes and ridges,
the edges of avalanche shoots. If there's meadows scattered out.
(16:13):
I want to go check the fringes of the meadows.
Elk love to be able to feed in there at night,
get get good high quality feed, and then they bump
back into the timber for bedding. I'm gonna go check
if there's isolated water. You know, a creek in the
bottom isn't necessarily a great fringe area or or something.
Elk have the ability to get water anywhere out of
(16:35):
that drainage, so I sometimes that's like I would say,
of lesser importance meadows, isolated watering ponds, swamps, wallows, ridge lines.
And then ideally I like to jump on a ridge
so I can cover in my opinion, that lets me
cover two sides and double my area. If I'm running
(16:55):
a ridge, I can check the passes that the low
points where I'm up there, I can check for for tracks, scat,
whatever it may be. And then as we already mentioned,
I like to go check out rub areas to see
if elk are in there or or around there. So
that's how I quickly get to an area, try to
(17:15):
break it down. You know you're looking once again, tracks, scat, rubs,
et cetera. Ideally, live elk now to the tunning season.
When I scout, I don't necessarily need to see live elk.
I just need some reassurance that they're in the area.
During season, I'm looking for actual signs of elk and
so quickly break down an area. Just because elk were
(17:37):
there a week ago doesn't mean they're going to be
there now. Just because they were there last year doesn't
mean they're going to be there this year. There are
things pressure, you know, lead cows, dying off, bulls, taking
cows of different areas, whatever it may be, There may
be reasons. So I never assume just because elk we're
you know, in an area, that they're going to be
back there, and I my job, in order to be
(17:58):
successful you're in your is to quickly track these things down,
figure out where they want to be at that time,
and find them. So locating elk as far as the
actual act of locating elk, as much as I love
to call, as much as I love to hear a
bull beagle back, I will take visual location of elk
(18:18):
every day over locating with the bugle and the ways
I accomplish that early morning, mid day, late evening if
we don't have anything going we don't have action. I'm
gonna get on a high vantage point and I'm going
to look for where I think elk are going to
be feeding or where they're going to be out. You know,
if it's morning or evening, I'll start to look in
more wide open areas. If it's middle of the day,
(18:40):
I might be looking in small, little pinched up avalanche shoots.
I might be looking into a burn. I might be
looking into real small pockets where I'm just looking for elk,
you know, signs of elk to show themselves, where they
may be getting the last bite of food, where they
may be getting out of bed, because a lot of
times you can't glass into their bedding, but you might
be able to catch elk, you know, around a betting
(19:03):
area or you know pushed up you know, steep country.
A lot of times those cows love to bed on
top of trees. Whatever it may be. I'm just middle
of the day, I'm glassing different areas than I am
morning or night. I'm looking more open, high quality, wide
open feed early morning, late at evening, isolated pockets in
the middle of the day. One thing I like to do,
which sometimes overlooked, is plan a little bit where's the
(19:26):
sun rising, where's the sun setting? Yeah, you do get
some time before the sun's up and a little bit
of time after the sun's down. But I try to
even you know, orientate myself so that I've got the
sun at my back. I don't want to look into,
you know, the sun. It messes up glassing, it's hard
to see, it's hard to differentiate colors whatnot. So even
(19:47):
on my high vantage points. Yeah, first in the morning,
you probably got half an hour a good glassing in
any direction, but then the sun quickly kind of changes that.
So I even think about things like that, setting myself
off on ridges looking in certain directions because I don't
want to miss that morning glass session. So ideally visual
one great way to locate them locate bugle, which is
(20:08):
an audible method. I kind of answered that earlier in
the question. But I'm going to go walk a ridge line,
I'm going to locate bugle, just trying to get an
answer back, and then typically all wait a half hour
forty five minutes after daylight. If I can't spot anything,
I quickly want to roll into my locating bugle plan.
That my game because those bulls are more likely to
answer earlier in the morning. The more you get towards
(20:31):
the middle of the day, we've all been there, the
bugling tends to just shut itself down. So the earlier
I can get my location bugle going, the quicker I
can cover ground, the higher the likelihood of me getting
a response back. Another way to locate elk. If I'm
in an area, I know they're elk there, signed there's
fresh sign. I can smell them whatever it is throughout
the day, but for some reason or another, they're not
(20:53):
locating night locating is something we do. We'll go out
walk a ridge in the middle of the dark. We'll
take a nap in the middle of the day. If
there's some slow time or the wind isn't write whatever
we may. We may spend an hour or two after
dark locating elk. If we don't have anything located that night,
we'll get up two hours early and locate elk in
the dark. Whatever whatever we need to do to locate ELK.
(21:13):
I need to be or I want to be on
an elk every morning and every evening like that's my
goal is to at least get a play and and
and I don't want to sacrifice that prime time in
order to to to make that happen. So I'm willing
to stay up late. I'm willing to get up extra
early to make sure we're always in elk. The last
way to locate elk is still hunting. I would reserve
(21:34):
this to very good you know, a very good uh
you know, understanding of where those elk are at, and
only go in and still hunt if I know they're
bedded up in an area, maybe the elk hunt. It's
getting late in the game, and this one still you
may screwed it up for other people, but it's kind
of like your last ditch effort, which I think everybody's
gonna you know, do. You're not necessarily saving those elk
(21:55):
for anybody else, But still hunting is a high risk,
high reward to get in tight. You can pretend she
pushed those elk out of their bedding, but you can
still hunt and work your way in close. Especially we've
resorted to this at times when there's just not a
lot of biggling early in the season. Seems to be
a way we can we can kind of sneak in
and locate out. So, now that you've located elk, what's
(22:19):
your next move? Going to be And that's kind of
the question we need to ask ourselves. We need to
be educated hunters, make good decisions and feel like we've
kind of walked ourselves through everything that's going to affect
our next move. So the first thing I like to
ask myself for what are the elk doing and what
are their plans? If I wasn't to intervene, are are
(22:43):
they going from feed to betting? Are they just milling around?
And does is there a herd bowl with multiple satellites
or is there a lopsided balance? Is there like a
great herd buwl with satellites that are smaller or is
there a herd bowl that's maybe barely you know, that
(23:04):
much bigger or better or stronger than the satellite bowls
around him like that. Some of that stuff's going to
lead lead to it because the competition is different and
you know, are are they got running activity? We're looking
at all of that before we even consider our approach.
The other thing I do like to and you know,
hunting public land for elk, you always have to answer
(23:25):
this question to figure out how quick you need to
make these decisions and move is what's the pressure like
in the area are these elk going to sit here
and do what they want to do without being bothered
by somebody else before I get there? Or do I
need to move quicker? Or sometimes we may spot elk
in areas where the effort or the ability to get
(23:46):
there is so great and it's going to take us
a long time. We know there's a lot easier ways
to get in there from a different road, whatever it
may be, we may elect to leave those alone because
our chances of becoming successful or so low. So you're
asking these questions to yourself. What's the wind doing at
(24:06):
this time? Let's say at seven o'clock in the morning,
we can almost guarantee the wind's going to be going downhill,
But how long is it going to take me to
get there? If it's two hours and you're going to
be over there at nine and you know the sun's
hitting that slope all right now as I approach, the
wind's going to be potentially going uphill, how does that
change my approach? Do I need to walk a finger
(24:27):
ridge over or whatever it may be. You got to
ask yourself these questions. The other thing, if it's a
long stalk and you can't just run there and be
there in fifteen minutes. Where are those elk ultimately going
to be by time I can get there? Do you
got to get enough read on the direction they're going
or can you foresee which patch of timber they're going
to go bed in or the flat? So I'm trying
(24:47):
to figure all this out without really knowing the answer.
Unless it's elk that you've got patterned or elk that
you've got a good idea, there's only certain spots they
can get to. You're trying to figure all it out
before you take off, and then ultimately I'm already trying
to figure out a general vicinity of where I'm going
to set up when I get there. It's very tough
(25:07):
to do. It's taken a lot of time. But if
I see an elk, you know, across the way, I
know it's going to be an hour to get down
and across by that time, I think the elk should
be here my plan and a lot of times I'll
just put a waypoint on on X. Of course we
may need to make changes, but this is where I
intend to interact with the elk, you know, my ideal spot,
and then I will change from there, and that's one
(25:28):
thing in this A lot of times when we if
we have to make a stock, that's our approach is
you know, seven hundred one thousand yards away or two
thousand yards away. It's a long, long track. A lot
of times things change when you get over there, and
you might get a little confused on what finger ridge
you're on. Put an on x pin where the elk
(25:49):
are at, where you think they're going, and then that
can help you kind of just plan your route and
you don't have to second guess if you're in the
right spot or where they're going. And then ultimately we
make small little changes as we approach, and my goal
is to get as close to that bowl or his
cows as I can without getting busted. Ideally, you know
(26:14):
we talk. We coined the term shock and awe. We
use that strategy. Once we approach, I try not to
make a sound until I'm within one hundred yards. That's ideal. Now,
what helps us out and accomplishing that is if that
bull continues to bugle on his own as we approach,
(26:34):
that gives us the confidence of reassurance we can track
his movement versus if you're if you're making that approach
and you don't get a whole lot out of that elk.
You're really just having to guess on the speed that
they were in the direction they were heading and try
to make all that work. Ninety five percent of the
herd bulls will not come into calls from more than
(26:56):
one hundred and twenty hundred and fifty yards out, And
I'll explain that a little bit. But in my opinion,
needs to represent a threat to that bowl. These bulls
are out there to you know, breed, recreate, reproduce, and
they don't want to potentially lose their opportunity to breed
these cows. And so why would they willfully walk away
(27:17):
from cows when there are other satellite bowls around to
come look for this bull or cow that's calling to him.
When in nature, that bowl beagles lets the cows know
that that bowl's in the area and the cow should
walk to them. So in order to we're kind of
reversing this a little bit and creating a threat to
that bowl that I'm within his area, I'm within a
certain distance of his cows. I'm now a threat to him,
(27:39):
and he needs to come and protect you know what,
He's got his cows, his hair, and whatever it may be.
So now that we're close, let's say we've did all
this successful, We've got the wind in our face, we're
doing things right. You need to figure out where to
set up, and there's there's a lot of opinions like
what's the most important, like any one piece of this.
If you can't locate a bull, then it's the most
(28:00):
important because you don't ever get to the stage. If
you can't approach and get in the right spot to
set up, then you're never going to be in the action.
But talking to enough people it shows, and listening to
hunting stories and scenarios, I feel that setting up is
maybe one of the biggest reasons of non success or
people coming up a little bit short. Then maybe anything
(28:22):
else that we talk about when it comes to calling
an elk. So how do I set up when I
(28:43):
get to an area? Well, another thing that I like
to gauge. If we've did everything right and we've got
the wind in our face and the elker or upwind
of us, we should be able to smell elk right
elkorist thinking creator. Most of the time, as I approach,
I almost use their stink. Their stench is like a
indicator that I'm close enough or I'm getting close enough,
(29:06):
especially if they're not talking. So that's when I start
to look for spots to set up. The very first
thing I look for is these fringes. We talked about
fringes earlier, but now we're looking at it on more
of a micro you know, kind of in the micro
scale of the micro lens. We want to look for.
(29:28):
You know, it might just be groups of trees that
are sixty or seventy yards ahead of us. And if
that elk gets to that, like, are they willing to
stop because they should be able to see the cow
or the bowl also known as ourselves doing the calling.
Can they see that elk from that location and expect
for that cower bowl to come to them? Or how
(29:48):
do we prevent that? We set ourselves up next to
that break. We set ourselves up next to that terrain break,
that vegetation break, so that when that elk does get
to that hold up spot within shooting distance and we
don't run into that situation scenario where and this is
what I see A lot, you know, a lot of
people like to show me their phone on a you know,
(30:09):
somebody had a cell phone running when they were calling
an elk, and those elk holed up at sixty or
seventy yards and they they bugle a little bit, or
they hang out, maybe pace a little bit, and then
they leave. Well, I always ask those guys, like, what
do you think happened there? And in my opinion, a
lot of times that bull gets to a location where
he could see very clearly the cow, the bull that
(30:31):
should be calling to him, and doesn't see what he likes,
and we'll turn around and go back to his cows.
Or even satellite bulls will do this. They don't see
what you know, they're they're not going to walk right
in to an elk that doesn't exist. They will get
to a spot where they can see well, they should
be able to see the cow or the bull, and
they'll turn away. So I'm looking at terrain and cover,
(30:56):
and let's try to paint a picture here through words.
Let's say you have a hillside that's forty five degrees up,
fairly steeped the whole way up, and there's there's one
little bench in the middle of it. Let's say you're
calling the bowl uphill and he's coming up the hill,
but that bench is a hundred yards wide, and you
are a little hesitant because you don't want to be
(31:17):
right at the edge, But so you set up way
at the back edge of it, so you're now one
hundred yards from where that elk will be. Because you
like the spot and you got good shooting lanes or something.
But I'm here to tell you when that bowl gets
to that break where it goes flat to forty five
degrees and steps up there, a lot of times you
only get a view of his head or you know,
maybe half of his body link because he can now
see that entire flat or most of that flat. You're
(31:40):
now one hundred yards away, right, Why wouldn't we have
set up twenty to thirty yards away. He's going to
hang up with that same spot, whether you're calling from
twenty to thirty yards away from the edge or if
you're calling from eighty to one hundred yards away from
that edge. So we need to think about things like
that as well as how the vegetation. The ideal set
up is when you can kind of combine that vegetation
(32:01):
break with terrain brakes, but either one of these will
work kind of individually on their own. Terrain breaks like
I love nothing more than setting up. I've got good
shooting lanes. Let's say twenty to thirty yards in the clean,
But that bull's coming out of a giant brush pile.
He can't see. He can't really be visible. You know,
there's bits and pieces. I can see the elk coming,
(32:22):
but he can never truly see out of the brush
or the timber or whatever it may be. He's got
to get to that edge in order to identify the
elk or the bowl or the cow, whatever it may be,
whatever calling style you use, he needs to get to
there in order to see. And then ideally, if I've
set up right, I've now got a very good shot
when he gets there. The next thing I'm looking at,
(32:42):
let's say we've picked an ideal spot. Where is that
bowl most likely to come in. We're looking at trail systems,
openings in trees. You know they I don't want to
sound like Captain Obvia's here, but the bowl can't walk
through trees. He doesn't really want to walk right through
the limbs of those trees. You know. If there's small
(33:03):
gaps and openings, they're going to walk typically like we do.
They're going to try to find the path of least
resistance to get there. So I'm now looking where's that
bowl going to approach? Which direction Willy come in from?
As a right handed shooter, Once I've identified those, I
will typically put my left shoulder towards where I think
he's going to come from. And if I need to
give myself a little bit of margin of air, I
(33:26):
you know, as a right handed shooter, I can swing
you know, ninety one hundred and twenty degrees to my left.
If I try to draw my bow and swing much
to the right, I'm limited by maybe fifteen to twenty
degrees before my you know, my my shot and my
form falls apart. So I'm looking for that. I'm putting
my left shoulder towards it. And one thing, there are times,
(33:47):
so I want to point this out where i will
set up on my knees if I've got lots of
If I'm in an area where trees allow shots to
happen underneath of their bottom branches, or if they're dead,
or you know, things if branches and trees, if my
shot dictates lower, shooting to be a lot more probable
(34:09):
than getting a shot if I'm standing up. But I ideally,
if I don't believe it changes my shot opportunity. I
will typically stand up. It gives me more freedom to move.
I can grab sticks and beat trees, whatever it may be.
We'll get into tactics here in a little bit. I
prefer to stand up. Knees limits me. A lot of
times my feet go dead, my feet go to you know,
(34:29):
whatever it might beat, my legs go numb, go to sleep,
whatever it may be. And it's a lot of times
it's uncomfortable, and I'm a lot more comfortable when I
can stand. Can I move in this position without making
noise or moving brush? Avoid if possible, setting up in
the middle of a brush pile. A lot of times
people don't think about having, you know, twenty inches of arrow,
(34:50):
twenty five inches of arrow hanging out in front of
their bow or their stabilizer, or if a bowl doesn't
come in exactly where they want. It's it's very tough
to make movements. So I typically will set up in
front of a large tree, in front of a pile
of brush, and let let that break up my outline,
and and you know, don't don't set up in the
(35:11):
middle of a brush pile. I made some airs very
early on and I've had great success just trying to
blend in on the side of a tree, in front
of a tree, in front of brush. So the last
thing setting up you've got there the wind should be correct.
One thing I do want to mention is I prefer
to call bowls on on contour or slightly downhill. I
believe elk like to feel like they've got gravity on
(35:35):
their side. A bowl that may be getting into confrontation
would rather come downhill if not on contour, which also
gives you the ability to deal with some maybe some
swirling winds. It's a little bit of a conservative play.
And then the last way, but sometimes situations don't allow
anything different, is to call a bowl uphill. But if
I have my preference, that's where I like to set up,
(35:57):
to call a bowl slightly downhill or on contour. Now
we're dealing with the wind. If you set up with
the wind perfect, so let's say the wind's hitting you
directly in the nose, that's ideally a perfect wind setup
that gives you the most the highest factor of being conservative.
That bowl can now approach. You know, swing way to
the left, swing way to the right, and you've still
(36:18):
got good wind in your favor. But what I've found,
especially doing a lot of solo calling or even calling
for buddies, is if that bowl comes straight on, you're
left with the frontel shot, or you're left with that
bowl becoming a little bit nervous and turning broadside. He
doesn't typically turn broadside on his own when you've got
(36:39):
the wind too perfect. So let's use that wind to
our advantage and use it kind of as a steering wheel,
kind of a half moon wind approach. So if I
can now get that wind not being on my nose,
but let's say that wind's hitting my right cheek at
a forty five even up to a ninety degree angle
forty five, hit my right cheet, creeve my right ear,
(37:01):
so that winds hitting me in on the right side,
I can almost with very good probability now dictate or
guess that that bowl is now going to swing to
my left or the left of the caller's position. So
you can see how we can start to use that
to our own advantage where we call and maybe move
up to our left if we're not going to make
any more calling, or if we're calling for a buddy
(37:24):
or hunting partner. I would want to be down to
the right so that when that bowl does start to
half circle me and start to try to get the
wind on me, I pull him right into the shooter.
So this allows us to use the wind almost as
a steering wheel and put some unknowns into a bucket
of nones as we're as we're calling this bowl in,
(37:47):
and so as you set up, start to think about that,
if that bowl does start to circle my position a
lot of times from sixty seventy one hundred yards out,
what does this new approach now look like? Do I
have shooting lanes as he comes in on my left
or vice? Or so if if the wind's opposite coming
in on my right, think about that. Be an educated
hunter and use that to your advantage as you go
(38:09):
to set up. So earlier we talked about if we're
dealing with a herd bull versus a satellite bowl. Now
that we're set up, what's our what are we gonna call? Uh?
What's our what's our first call gonna be? And one
thing that I want to I want to start with
right out and even preface this whole conversation. This is
where we get into like individual tactics and techniques, and
(38:30):
there's there's a lot of ways to do it. You've
got guys out there that believe they understand elk language,
do a t and they can communicate with elk like
they're having a conversation. Some of those guys kill out
pretty routinely. There are guys like myself that call more
on a prescriptive, more of an attitude based calling, and
I find it to be very successful and a high
(38:52):
percentage of elk that we get to run the system
on we routinely call. And there's other guys out there.
You know, my buddy Brian Barney, Ryan Lamper. Some of
these guys that don't they do call well, Ryan calls,
Brian doesn't. But guys that don't call as much but
maybe use raking of trees and brush in in combination
(39:12):
with maybe a little bit less calling, they're also notching tag.
So I want to preface this, this is the way
I love to do it, and I want to I
want to give a little bit of why. So when
you and I'm not saying it's not as accomplished as
maybe even more accomplished, but when you kill an elk
that you've snuck in on. You didn't get to play
that chess match of me calling and interacting with the elk. Now,
(39:35):
it might be cool in its own sense that you,
you know, were able to get that close without being heard, smell, seen,
and still make a perfect shot. I'm out there. The
main reason is to interact with these elk. I love
nothing more than getting a bowl. You know, super pissed off,
eyes rolled back in his head, slobign you know, pi
and all over himself, just so pissed off at me.
(39:58):
And when he kind of turns that corner or push
us through some brush, his eyes rolled back in his
head and he hits me with that bigle from thirty
or forty yards away. That is the exact reason, all
bottled up into about ten seconds, that I'm out there
and why I love to archery elk hunt in the
rut so much. I'm out there for that experience. Yeah,
I could do it a bunch of different ways, but
that's what I want and that's why we're out there.
(40:21):
So we call and we play off of their temperament.
It's more of a I do this, he reacts this way.
Now I'm going to do this, and I'm going to
turn the temperature up on him, and it worked very,
very well. One other thing I want to talk about
before we get into actual calling tactics is don't get
hung up on being the absolute best caller. Yes, it
can help you gain volume, it can help you sound
(40:43):
more realistic, it can help you mimic elk, but all
oaks sound different. And there's been a few times where
real elk if really kind of got me or confused
me a little bit. I was ready to balance out
of a situation because I didn't want to feel like
I was being called in by somebody or give them
any of my energy, your effort. And you know, sure
(41:04):
as heck, those elk came right in what I thought
was a human. So so you don't have to be
the best elk caller ever. So let's say we know
we're on a herd bowl. We've confirmed it. We can
see cows, we can see herd bulls. He's he's doing
herd bowl things. Rounding up. What I like to do
is get close. We mentioned earlier, I want to be
(41:24):
within one hundred yards. I always make sure before I call,
especially in these close close quarters, you want to make
sure you've got your Aaron ocht and you've got your
release either on your bow or hooked up before you
start making calls. Sometimes this has happened very fast, where
(41:45):
elk for one reason or another come in very quickly,
very aggressively, and or happened very often that at the
time you set up, you couldn't see the bowl, but
maybe they're heading your direction, and within a second or
two he's now got a wide open he's got you pegged,
he knows where you're at, and his eyeballs are on
you or other cows are on you eyeball, so you
may not be able to get a chance to move
(42:07):
after that, So always be ready to shoot. So I
like to paint the scene that this bowl and he's
got a lot of work, right, He's got a lot
of times multiple cows, you know, smaller herds, I'd say
three four five, you know some of the bigger herds.
Some of these bulls are trying to run thirty forty
cows at once, and it becomes a full time job,
especially when you've got satellite bulls harassing them or kind
(42:30):
of pestering him. He's got a lot of work surrounding
his cows. So to paint this scene I want to
basically be a cow on the edge of his herd,
and I'm going to use some estrasty calls, some more wines,
you know, so your your typical cow call, Yeah, just
a mew an estrass wine is more up and down. Yeah.
So what I'm trying to let him do right off
(42:52):
the bat is that there's a cow on the edge
of your herd that you no longer have in your eyesight,
you have control over. And then very quickly after that,
I'm going to let a challenge bogle. Basically, I'm saying,
you have a cow on the edge of your herd
that needs some attention, but there's this new bowl that's
now right there on top of her. And a lot
of times why they're trying to we've set up this
(43:15):
you know, fight or flight type mentality during the run.
A lot of times you can take advantage of that
because that bold doesn't want to leave the opportunity to
breed that cow, pro create and whatnot. And I like
to use the analogy of what we're doing is is
let's say I'm I'm in a restaurant. Me and my
wife are eating in the back booth of a restaurant.
(43:38):
And why we get so close. And it's kind of
this shock and awe approach. If a guy walks in
the front door of the restaurant and yells my name
and some profanities or whatever he's gonna yell at and
basically say, I'm gonna take your wife, you know whatever,
you tick me off, whatever it may be, I've got
the opportunity, when you're that far away to just walk
out the back door, maybe maybe deflect, maybe get away
(43:59):
from the situation. So this is a lot of times
the biggest air hunters make is they call their way
into a setup, and that bull is not interested in
losing his cows. As a bull approaches, so we want
to be very very quiet, and so by painting this scene,
he's got a cow that's in need, and all of
a sudden, this bull hammers. He's made is he's been
able to approach silently and all of a sudden he's there.
(44:21):
A lot of times this is enough to turn that
bull's temperature up very very quickly, and a lot of
times that's been the only two calls I've had to make.
You can start to hear brush break, you can start
to hear approaches and a lot of times that's all
we need if we've got close enough. There are times
where you get in a little bit of a battle
where you need to pull that bowl off of the herd,
or you may need to follow him. And so if
(44:43):
we get into too much calling, I ideally want that
bull to make the next call after I've made those two.
If he does, I mimic him, or I walk right
on top of his bugle. So I typically have my
bugle handy. As soon as he bugles, I'm right back
on top of him, and I don't let him ever quote,
you know, kind of finish his his what he wants
(45:04):
to say. I'm always walking on top of him. I'm
always mimicking what he has to say, and I'm trying
to turn that temperature dial up, you know, turn his
dermos that make it higher and higher. So he's getting frustrated,
more angry, and and ideally he will continue to call,
and I will walk on top of him. I don't
necessarily want to control the conversation by me, by me talking,
(45:25):
but if I need to, if forty five seconds to
a minute, minute and a half's gone by and I
haven't heard Elk moving, I haven't heard other beagles. I
haven't heard other cow sillens. I will kind of see
what we need to do, and during this if this
is where mimicry comes in. If if this bowl's screaming,
I will scream back out of him. If he's got
a guttural grunt with some chuckles, I will do the
(45:47):
same thing. And I'll try to and I'll kind of
roll with that through the next uh, through the next
call and the next call, and try to amplify that
and really just get him more upset and more upset.
And one thing. We a lot of times there are
multiple setups in order to get a bowl to turn,
you know. So sometimes it works on the first try.
(46:07):
Sometimes we need to move sixty seventy yards closer, or
that bowl will semi round up his cows and take
them in the opposite direction. As long as we've got
the wind right, we will move sixty seventy yards vegetation
and train allowing and reset up. So really we're just
trying to gauge him. And if if I get that
(46:28):
little bit of time between the estrous cow call and
let's say the bugle, the challenge bugle, that I'm kind
of throwing the whole kitchen sink at him. If that
bull hammers my cal call, I may just stay with
that and this and this is herd bowl tactics. Only
is being very aggressive with the bugle. Will now kind
of go into the satellite bowl. I know I'm dealing
(46:49):
with the satellite bowl. I will go to lots of
heavy sexy cow calling. There's no need to necessarily use
a bugle in this situation. If he's bonding the cow calls,
I'm going to stay with him. If I feel like
I'm losing him, I may throw in like a little
moan bugle to let him know like an immature bull's
got some cows down in here, but never really just
(47:10):
blast them with the herd bulls sound. Because these bulls
have established a pecking order, they kind of know based
on bugle what's what. And so we'll typically throw lots
of sexy cow calling at them. And we've been able
to call elkin and burns where we've been able to
watch as we throw more cow calls at him, the
faster that bull will move through. So we've got enough.
You almost can't cal call enough. You stop cal calling,
(47:32):
he'll slow down. You pick it up and that bowl
will approach faster. But with this said, I basically said,
there's these prescriptive, cookie cutter approaches, but I know as
soon as I go out in the field, I'm never
just doing these. These are kind of the standard that
we build off of. Let's say I'm walking along a
trail and I get a whiff of elk coming up
(47:53):
the hill and there's a nice little pocket or a
bench down there, I may elect to just cow call
a mune, not even an estress wine, nothing, just to yeah,
if I get a bowl to answer that, and I move,
Let's say I can't move far, but I go eighty
yards for the down the hill, and the bowl answers
that I don't even need to know if it's a
herd bull or a satellite bowl at that. If he's
(48:14):
being responsive and seems like he's approaching to a calcol,
I would be you know, it would be kind of
a stupid play for me to change to one of
my scenes or one of my prescriptions that I typically
call in. I'm gonna go ahead and stick with that
calmw until it doesn't work or until that bowl doesn't
get there, and then maybe, you know, escalate it to
a estress, wine or whatever it may be, but use
(48:36):
what works out there. People get too hung up on
doing things a specific or a certain way, or hey
I read this on the internet that I need to
do this, or it worked that one time. I think
one of the things that makes you a good l
hunter or somebody that finds success more times than not
is the ability to quickly reduce what the situation is
(48:57):
and what you need to do as far as sounds
you need to make. There are certain situations where I'm
just like this thing, elk doesn't care what I say
to him. He's only beagling every five or ten minutes
on his own. If that's the case, like I need
to shut up, I need to be more aggressive, I
need to use more spot in stock techniques. I need
to get in close and then maybe call when I
get closer, and then if it doesn't work, then then
you may need to finish it off with spot in stock.
(49:19):
So it's just being an educated hunter that kind of
knows what to do. And so I've kind of got
like the you know, the steal a cow scene where
there's that cow on the edge of the herd, a
new bowl shows up. He's there to take care care
of and you know, breed that cow and then satellite
bowl lots of sexy cow. But really just do what's working.
(49:40):
The other thing I like to take into account is
what's going on out in the elk woods without us intervening.
Are these elk super talkative? Does this bowl have a
lot of satellites around like those herd dynamics of the
area and the time, and the percent of cows that
are currently in estress. All of that plays into you
(50:01):
how talkative the elk are going to be. What my
response should be, And so I like to just let
the situation, the information I know, kind of call my
next move, even though we're pretty prescriptive and I need
to be able to adjust to what's happening in front
of me right now. And a lot of times we
get asked Solover's partner strategy. I mentioned you we use
(50:23):
the wind a little bit different. A lot of times
we can throw throw those callers up in front. But
this isn't like some of the old truth videos I
got to watch grown up. You know, public land elk,
you can't typically set that caller one hundred yards back
because you've now just disrupted that that threat bubble, or
that that elk's ability to walk away from his cows,
that his for sure thing to come find this new
(50:46):
cow that showed up, that that's not coming his direction.
So when we when we do partner strategies, our partners
typically in our hip pocket. And the other reason I
like to do that is a lot of times the
shooter's got a better you know, he's got better optics
of this situation and how it's playing out and what
the bull is doing, and we can relay. We can
give hand signs back to our caller. Hey, maybe you
(51:07):
do need to fade back because he's now hung up
at seventy yards, like we didn't make a good enough
decision on his hang up point, or like, man, this
thing is just tearing up brush. Every time you hit
a bugle like beagle a little bit more or more
frequently versus stay away from cal calls, whatever it may be,
we can at least communicate. And one other thing I
(51:27):
like to add to the calling natural sounds is brush breaking.
I always always set up with a tree branch it's
you know, two two and a half three inches in
diameter next to me, and ideally, if the if the
spot allows I want to be next to a tree
with with dry bark or broken you know, dried out
(51:49):
limbs that I can just beat the heck out of
and create that that imitation, because a lot of bulls,
as we call them in especially on what I would say,
your your longer call ins that that take a little
more time to develop. That bull will typically find a
tree somewhere between you and him the rake and kind
of show off his dominance and get his horn, you know,
put his scent down on that tree, whatever it may be,
(52:11):
establishing his area. We like to mimic that, and if
you can beat the heck out of a tree, it
just adds to the realism of the situation that yeah,
there's a bull bugling, but he's also raking, and it
kind of puts all that together. So that's really I mean,
as much as I would like to say calling is
(52:32):
a it is very important to my success and getting
the game started. As far as how you call, elkin,
I feel your setup, in your approach or so much more,
so much more important to the outcome and your success
than the actual calling. And it's really just taking their temperature.
Does this call work? Yes or no? And I guess
(52:52):
I should say in certain situations, there's level of threats, right,
like a big challenge beagle like right in the bulls
is probably the highest level of threat you can throw
at them right out of the gate, versus a kafir calmew,
very non threatening, very just elk communicating to each other
versus like, hey, let's maybe do a spike squeal or
(53:15):
an immature bowl bugle and then you may be a
squeal and then maybe some moans and maybe some chuckles.
Like there are ways to build up to the full blown,
you know, challenge bugle that you're gonna throw at them.
And so there are times where if the rout doesn't
seem to be just going crazy and maybe the challenge
bugle isn't the right thing, I might I might just
(53:35):
start at a lower threat level and then slowly build.
So that's kind of my strategy. I highly recommend to everybody, like,
go find a strategy, a system that you like, and
put it to use. But that that's going to kind
of wrap it up on part two of the elk
hunting this is a little bit different. This is kind
(53:56):
of what I go through during my seminars a little
bit semi you know, We've reduced it a little bit
so it can it can fit in the confines of
a podcast. But that is really my strategy. It's really
really simple. Like people want to overcomplicate it, they want
to make it so you have to read books and
books on how to do this, and I honestly keep
it very, very simple. We run the same thing over
(54:17):
and over the progressions, and I think you go out
there and put some of this to use and be
confident in your approach, be confident in your calling. You're
gonna find some success this year. So thanks a lot
listening to part two of el Hunting. Good luck to
everybody out there, and once again you have questions for us,
feel free to email us at ctdapp colbsgamecalls dot com.
(54:40):
Thank you very much for listening.
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