Ep. 49: Jason and Cory Calkins

September is here! Jason sits down with Cory Calkins to talk about what they've seen so far this September. They then dive into Cory's guiding backstory and they talk about the differences in elk in wilderness areas versus private ranches as well as what is required to be successful in both locations. They also touch on the moon phase and the weather changes and how they think it affects how the elk will respond.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome back to Cutting the Distance. September is finally here.
The bulls are starting to get fired up, and that's
exactly what we're going to cover on today's episode is
elk hunting during the rut. Our guest today is a
coworker here at me Eater, and when I first talked
to him, I could tell that he just gets it.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
He's a great elk hunter.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
He can talk to people that kind of buffalo their
way through a conversation. But you know, we got chatting
about elk hunting and things that I did versus things
that he did, and you could just tell it clicked
with him. He was born and raised in Montana and
has spent the last fourteen years guiding elk hunters, one
in Colorado, thirteen in Montana, and those were both all
wilderness expeditions as well as private ranches and everywhere in between.

(00:48):
He's going to be mad that I added this, because
I know he was joking when he sent this for
his bio, but he said he has killed more shit
than the plague was his last line in his bio.
But today's guest is Corey Caulkins, Gray Hunter, and glad
to have you on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Yeah, what's up, Jason, Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, have you had a chance to get in the
woods yet?

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, I went out. I was opening weekend this last
weekend here in Montana, and yeah, got out.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
We had some beautiful weather.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
Actually it was a little hot on opening Day and
then some torrential rain came in the following Sunday and Monday.
Over the Labor Day weekend, it was pretty quiet elk
wise in the woods. There were sure a lot of
people getting after it, some hunters, some just recreational dirt bikers,
but it was loud in the woods. There's a lot
of people making a lot of noise for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, I've always loved and hated Labor Day because it's
the start of elk season, but it's also like the
last weekend for all the hikers and recreationalists aside from
US hunters, and it just seems to pack every trailhead,
every good area. Everybody's hiking everywhere, and it's and the
elk really aren't cranking. So it's a little bit of
your we're so just to be out in the woods,
but yet it's not always like the most productive.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Absolutely, Yeah, across the board that I've heard not a
lot of bugle in action. Elk still in their bachelor
summer herds summer locations. But man, it's kind of change
by the day here as we as we speak.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, I got to get out this weekend a little
bit easier of a hunt because it was a rough hunt.
And then the kid had drawn a rifle tag. But
same thing.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
There were bulls around.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
They would answer beagles just enough so that we keep
tabs on them, but they you know, if I had
a bow in my hand, I would be really I
wouldn't be real confident that I would be able to
make anything happen. Just how you know, lacks of daisical.
Their beagles were really wasn't interested. You know, the bull
didn't the herd bowl didn't even show up in the
herd until eight thirty in the morning. He was obviously
out running ridges, looking for other cows and whatnot, and

(02:50):
then he kind of showed up and rolled into the
group of about forty cows. But yeah, still real big
herds and they haven't really got broken down yet and
bowls still running together. So it seems I don't want
to say it's late, but it's it's not kicked off
yet for sure.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
For sure, Yeah, I don't know the way this season,
at least in the northern half of the Rockies, everything
seems to be like a week late. I'm a big
angler to fly fishermen, and a lot of hatches were late,
rivers were high later than you know, at least still
compared to the last couple of years. So one's got
to wonder if things might be just a couple of
days or a week later in the elkra this year.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
We'll see.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, well, I mean we can get into this in
a little bit. But I've always been that one like, no,
your excuse of the rut's late, or your excuse of
the moon, or your excuse of you know, they weren't
bigle in this year. Like I've never bought into it.
But one thing the last couple of years. And I
don't know if I'm making my own excuses now, but
I felt like it's been later. I don't know how

(03:47):
what I would attribute it to or what, but it
seems like, man, they were still going a lot better
into October than they have in the past. But may
just be me making a weak excuse for myself.

Speaker 4 (03:58):
Well, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
October is still great month those first two weeks to
get after bugle and elk.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah, they're still pretty fired up.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
A lot of people give up by then, and man,
it's not a good time to give up yet.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
And one thing that I would like to point out,
maybe it's not exactly true, but what I've noticed growing
up hunting Roosevelts versus being able to the last ten
years hunt a lot of Rocky bowls, is the rut
truly is over somewhere as soon as October rolls around
the elk, know, like Roosevelts were done. Where when I've
got to hunt Rockies, you know, they're still bugling into
the second third week of October. Still a lot of times.

(04:30):
I don't know if it has to do with herd
dynamics or areas, or you know, the health of the
herd when they can come into estrus or whatnot, But
that's one that's one major difference I've known is that
the Rockies seem to rut into October a lot further
than the Roosevelts.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
So, yeah, our rifle season here in Montana opens, you know,
around like the twentieth through twenty eighth ish fourth weekend,
and h October and I called in a bowl for
a client with the cow call that opening weekend a
rifle season.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's been good.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Same thing with my wife when she had that tag
as October twenty eighth and on a rifle tag, and
he bugled three hundred times at that afternoon, and once
they got out of bed, bugled this whole way up
before she was able to get a shot at him.
It was just, you know, just nuts. I don't know
if a cow came in late or what, but man,
it reconstituted the rut there for at least an evening

(05:23):
and we took advantage of it. So all right, now
we're gonna, like every show, we're going to jump into
listener questions. It's funny, you know, as ELK season gets close,
we get all of these listener questions and I like
to take those or give them to my guests and
let them answer them. If you have questions for me
or my guests here at Cutting the Distance, please email

(05:44):
them to us at CTD at phelpsgame Calls dot com,
or hit us up on social media, send us messages,
and we'll do our best to get him included. So
our first question today comes from holding Kuhn. A buddy
and him are going to go on their first l
CONTs this year. It's a rifle hunt. They both have tags,
assuming they're hunting and glossing together, and they spot out,

(06:04):
how do you decide who shoots first? So me and
my own buddies, I'll let ego first. We've always had
our own system. But I'll let you answer, Cory. If
if your equals and you didn't invite somebody or they
didn't invite you, Like, how do you guys decide who
shoots man?

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, if it's equal, like you both haven't shot an
elk ever before or whatever, I'll usually draw straws or
draw blade of grass, or flip a coin, like just
make it the luck of the draw. A lot of
times like that, the scenario might play out to where
only one person ends up getting the shot. You kind
of want to leave it open minded to that, but yeah,
I don't know, flip a coin.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
That's that's how we usually roll, unless it's a hunt
where maybe I've already got to go on a hunt
and they don't have as much time or freedom and
this is their one hundred the year. You know, you
extend some you know, you extend that offer to them,
like no, go ahead and start, and then you do
every other day. We don't like to both carry our
bows around. It's like you focus on what you're supposed
to do. I'll focus on and the chance of us

(07:00):
getting a shot at a second bowl there is always
that chance, but it's never really you know, shown itself.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
So we usually pack one bow. The other guy's.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Responsible for the calls and the raking and the brushing,
and then that way we can just kind of avoid
you know, two people trying to get shots or you know,
not doing any of that. And just like you, we
usually either do like one full day that way we
don't have to get back to camp, or if it's
like a rifle hunt, we'll do like a night in
the morning. But usually once you flip the coin and
get going or however you want to do it, just

(07:31):
come up with a system and you know your hunter
one day and then your color the next, and you
just switch throughout the hunt and rifle Mildiary. Of course
we're not in a Milier podcast, Like if it's rifle Mildier,
we'll just play whoever spots it shoots it the entire time,
you know, so it keeps everybody on the glass all
the time, versus a guy thinking he's going to take
a nap or whatnot, which is another good incentive. You know,

(07:55):
if you spot it or locate it or find it,
then you're up. It just incentivizes a you know, staying
getting after it and staying after it throughout the whole hunt.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
Yeah, it makes you work a little harder.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
This is a this is a question which I've got
to get answer for what I'll see how you answer.
His second question, also from holding Kun, he wants to
be a better caller, but feels he lacks the lung
capacity or the ability to call either long or loud enough.
Is there a way to improve that?

Speaker 3 (08:27):
Well, to get louder, he should get the Phelps metal
bugle tube. Can't get much louder than that. My ears
ring every time I blow that thing personally. Yea, man,
I don't know. There's probably some lung exercises you could do.
You know, I know a lot of folks struggle, say
they're coming from lower elevation, they go into higher elevation,
it can take them a few days to just get

(08:47):
their lungs back up and running, especially if they're hiking
the hills and working really hard. It could be hard
for anybody to blow a bugle when you're when your
blood's pumping like that. But man, there's probably some long
exercises you can do. Take some just you know, leading
up to a hunt. Do some lung stretches. Not only
are to be mentally and physically prepared, but also preparing

(09:09):
those lungs for for what have you. And then just
all in all, practice bugling and cal calling.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, and that's that's what's gonna be my two part answers.
As we do design calls. The easy bugler attached to
an aluminum our metal bugle to very very loud and
it requires less error than being able to run a diaphragm.
So there are calls that will get you the ability
to be a better caller or to be louder if
that's what you're after. And then one thing you may

(09:36):
never let me, let me back up just by running
calls a lot, like we've been able to be at
lots of sportsman shows. We've been around guys that seem
to start to show as like a mediocre caller and
then just being in the booth for a week half
into bugle, half into bugle. It's just like anything, the
more you do it, the more your lungs are gonna
become adapted. They're gonna they're gonna be more comfortable, and

(09:58):
you're gonna be able to bugle, louder, cleaner, all that stuff.
And we've you know, we've noticed it at the shows
where a guy comes in it's like, oh, I don't
know if we want him begling on a call, you know,
or or blowing on a call, because it's not really
good for sales, but just being around good callers and
doing it over and over and by the end, you're like,

(10:18):
that guy got a lot better, you know. And then
the last thing I wanted to touch base on lung
capacity is one thing and I'm going to nerd out
on people here for a little bit, is it's fairly tied.
There is a very high correlation with your age and
your height, not your weight, not anything else. So like
a lot of the air capacity lung capacity charts that

(10:39):
that I look at when I'm modeling a Beagle tube
will have the age. I don't remember how all the
accesses are laid out, but basically age and your height
will then dictate like your max capacity, like output from
your lung So it's one thing that you get older,
you're gonna have less. If you're short, you're already at
a disadvantage just based on the core relation. And but

(11:02):
one thing I found is maybe that doesn't necessarily add
up because we've got small guys that can crank. So
maybe it's a different, you know, a different capacity that
your lungs have. But I would say to stop bssing
about this long drawn out answer is just practice a lot.
The more you're in a call, the better you're gonna
get it running a call, the more control you're going

(11:23):
to have over that call.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
And and that'll kind of fix it for you.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Well man fitness getting ready for an l hunt, you know,
is going to help your lungs, Stretch them out, get
them stronger, get that fire out of them. The first
couple of hikes up a steep hill with a heavy backpack,
I don't see how that would would hurt your lungs.
To be able to call a little bit longer and louder.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yep, yep, and allows you to call without taking a
minute break, so you can, finally, after you get done
with it, actually still blow on the tube when you're
when you're grinding it out is also another thing, like
you know I've ran into like I need ten seconds
before I can blow on their twenty or thirty, you know,
and the better shape you're in that, the better you're
going to be.

Speaker 5 (11:59):
So our second question comes from Nick in Utah, which
obviously listens to the show because he starts out, I
know you don't use a decoy very much, if ever,
but I was wondering if you've ever tried using a
decoy for elk hunting in the low country of Juniper's
opinions before.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
If not, how could or would you use this strategy
and what would it look like in your eyes? If
this was used, would it be effective? And then is
there a strategy where you wouldn't use this tactic? So
go ahead and answer that. Have you ever decoyed Corey?

Speaker 3 (12:30):
I have not.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
I have not, but man, I really want to.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
There's been many scenarios where I wish I had a
decoy because I think it would have lured him in
just that much further, because you know, they're pretty keen
on coming into the sound of a cowora bowle coming
in and curious. But a lot of times if they
don't see anything, that just triggers their nervousness to not
come in any closer. And man, it's happened way too
many times where they get hung up at that sixty

(12:55):
seventy eighty yard mark. And I believe if the decoy
was behind me or behind the shooter, then that would
bring him in, you know, that extra twenty yards needed.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
So no I have ever used one actually in the field.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
I guess I don't want to carry one around because
climbing twelve to fifteen miles a day.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yep, I'm in the same boat. I've we've tried to
take them and we've lost her before. We've ever got
to use it, both on two different hunts. So somewhere
out there there are there's an elk decoy out there.
But I, you know, just thinking about it, I wouldn't
want to use it in wide open country where you know,
things can can can look out of place. I think

(13:35):
the situation they're talking about that Nick's talking about, like
low country Juniper's pinions. As long as it's tight enough
and not wide opening can be seen from hundreds yards away,
it would work.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
And then it works even.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Better and maybe tight timber where if they can get
a glimpse, you know, when they're at seventy or eighty
yards or one hundred yards, but real tight, and I'm
gonna you know, roll roll into why. I think that
a lot of times those bowls will hold up where
they expect to see that cow or where that cow
can then see them, and they expect that cow to
go to them, right because they don't want to leave

(14:06):
their herd. And so if you're giving the bowl the
ability or whatever you're trying to call the ability to
see this cow from two hundred or three hundred yards away,
he's going to sit out there. Most likely, not not always,
but he, in my opinion's going to set out there
and beegle and then just not come in so within
shooting range. Versus if there is no visual and that
bowl can't lay eyes on that cow decoy, you may

(14:28):
have better options. So I think it really depends on
how tight the vegetation is when that bowl will finally
be able to see that decoy and then you know,
but like I said, I'm just guessed guessing at what
would happen. You could have a bowl that has no
cows and he's always looking for a cow. He may
run right into that setup versus a herd bull may
not be willing to come any closer, you know, and

(14:50):
leave his cows for just a lone cow that's out
there calling to him. He expects her to come to him.
And so I don't have a great answer for that either,
but I think you wouldn't want to use it in
wide open country. Want it to be at least relatively
tight enough that bowl would have to be somewhat close
to see it.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Mm hmm. Yeah, engage's curiosity just enough to bring him
in that much closer for sure, yep.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
And then our last question I believe come from Corey Bonen.
He was wondering if we've ever covered the topic on
post rut. He lives in Alberta, Canada, hunts elk in
the foothills of the Rockies, and he says it seems
to be the actually starts to taper off by the
third week of September, and their rifle season up there
starts on September seventeenth, and he says by the time

(15:31):
they get the October they're hard pressed to get any bugles.
What are the best tactics for kind of that post
rep for you know, kind of going back to what
we've already talked about. You know, still pretty decent bugling
into October. But let's say you had a tag for
middle October and still wanted to run calls or use
that to your advantage. Like, what would be your strategy?

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Man, There's there has to be a fired up bowl somewhere,
but yeah, having to hunt in an area where few
rifle shots have already gone off, that'll shut some elk
up for sure. You and I Jason to both hunted
in the Bob Marshall Wilderness where we can hunt with
rifles September fifteenth, and those first few days are fire.
But then when they hear a couple of rifle shots

(16:14):
go off there, they're a little less apt to scream
at the top of their lungs. You can still find
them out there, you just might have to dig a
little deeper and get a little further back, maybe where
people haven't been.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
I don't think it's worth giving up on just the
same tactics hunting ridges, bugle in looking for that one
that might still be fired up in there, because that's
still early enough. Obviously it varies by regions north to
south especially, but man, there's got to be one fired
up somewhere. I don't think it's worth giving up on
the calling.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, and that's I mean elk ridges they've got that
built in safety feature right where they do hear those
gun shots? Are the are you and maybe I mean
we can't have a conversation with Corey Corey Bona not you.
It's like, are are these elk just non existent? Or
are you still seeing them? They're just not bugling? That
would be nice to know. But my guess is these

(17:10):
elk are going back to some Heidi holes, right, They're
trying to get away from pressure. They still maybe you know,
you may need to go find those. It's tough to
figure that out. But as far as strategy, I would
still I use I use my bugle fairly religiously. You know,
into the middle of October, if I was hunting rockies,

(17:30):
you know, it's like I will probably get a response
if there are cows in the area that are still
coming into estrus or even if even if not, like
he's still may be willing to try to find that
last cow, he may answer you. And then as far
as calling a bowl into range. You know, we're we're
pretty heavy buglers. But I would maybe switch a little
more to cow calls at that point, especially if you've

(17:51):
got a rifle in your hand. You know, I just
got off of a rifle rut hunt, and it's tough
to like remove myself from my archery tactics. It's like, hey,
we got a gun. You know, we're hunting with a gun.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Now.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
I don't need to call this bowl in the range.
I don't need the risk getting winded. I don't need
to get tight like. I just need to know where
he's at and then we'll find him.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
And so.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
That's why I would say, if you're rifle hunting by
September seventeenth already, I would bugle and locate and then
turn it into a you know, a spot spot the
bowl and try to get in a position to shoot it,
not necessarily call that thing all the way in now.
Like I said, I don't know where they're at. They
might be in heavy timber, and I might be saying
stuff that's just not useful to them. But that would

(18:32):
be my go to is you know, hunt them like
you've got a rifle, and maybe some of this stuff
we always talk about getting him into archy range.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's just too much risk at that point.

Speaker 4 (18:43):
Yeah, no, that's a good good point.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Maybe to sum that up, just spot, maybe shifting more
towards spot and stock, but to be able to spot
him with either your glass or if you can just
locate them, get one to screw up by Yeah, bugle
in her cow call and then stock in from there,
get a few hundred yards away.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
Got a high advantage with that high powered rifle.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
So well, thanks, thanks everybody for your your questions. If you,
like I said earlier, if you have questions for us,
our guests myself, email us at ct D at phelps
game Calls dot com, or send us social media messages.
We're on all the platforms there. Make sure to get
him over and we'll try to get him included here
in our show. So now we're gonna jump into my

(19:39):
discussion with you, Corey. Tell me a little bit about
where you where you guided, kind of how long you
been doing, how you got it into it, a little
background on yourself, and then we'll roll into some questions
on your clientele and and the elk that you got
to hunt.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, well, let's see, uh, fresh out of high school.
I started guiding nell hunters. My first year was down
in Colorado, which, as everybody knows, has an extremely high
elk population versus the other Western states out here, and
it's true there's a lot of elk down there. We
went sixty four for sixty four in the archery and
rifle seasons that I went down. They're not all bowls.

(20:15):
We never shot one over three hundred and twenty inches
that year, but man, there's just a lot of elk
roam in those mountains.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
Very impressive.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
Was signed up to go back down that next year
when I was going to be nineteen, but ended up
landing a job in the Bob Marshall Wilderness much closer
where I was born and raised in northwest Montana, and
couldn't pass up the opportunity. It started out as guiding
fishermen in the Bob and then we have an early

(20:43):
rifle season back there, opened September fifteenth with a rifle
and it was kind of always a dream to go
back in there to hunt.

Speaker 4 (20:50):
Personally.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
My folks had lived in Montana since the seventies and
went back in there on some DIY hunts on their
own and just hearing those, always wanted to put my
boots in the wilderness, and this was a good chance
to do it and get paid to do it. So
I guided deep in the wilderness for seven years, learned

(21:11):
a lot about elk hunting I was young, that was
my early twenties, and then just kind of through the
grapevine of working in the industry, was able to land
a pretty fantastic guiding job just north of Bozeman here
where I live now, on a couple different private ranches
that honestly are the total opposite spectrum of elk hunting.

(21:34):
Going from deep in the wilderness having to earn just
getting back there mandatory nine to ten miles on a
horse just to enter the wilderness unit versus shooting elk
off the hood of a truck, not literally, of course,
but pretty close, and then loading them in hole with
a wench electric wench in the back of the truck.
Pretty mind blowing spectrum to go from one to the other.

(21:57):
That first year guiding on those. One of the private
ranches up here had to send video of the first
bowl I harvest was a three hundred and fifty one
inch bowl that.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
I helped harvest.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
Excuse me, guided, and I wench the whole thing in
the back of a truck, was able to drive right
to it and had to record the video send that
to all my buddies who were still grinding and out
in the wilderness, and they all, I'm pretty sure puked
on their phones when they saw that. But so I
was pretty spoiled from there, but definitely earned earned my stripes,
I would say, to get to that point. And yeah,

(22:29):
two very different spectrums of guiding, and I spent eight
years guiding on these ranches that I'm speaking of.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, so you've got a real It sounds like you
got a real contrast from doing it maybe as hard
and as far away from the truck as he can
versus doing it as close and maybe I don't want
to say easy, but definitely, definitely the odds are stacked
in your favorite more on that private land you know
it's managed to be that versus you know, the unmanaged wilderness,
semi unmanaged wilderness.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Did you just kind of.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Get what you get and the train gets thrown at
you and whatnot?

Speaker 4 (23:02):
And exactly so quick.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
Story about me.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
I don't know if I tried to be a guide
an elk hunting guide right out of high school, and uh,
my parents gave me the the ultimatum of like this
is where we break your plate. Like if you go
to college and and go do all of that, you
get to you know, you can stay here and finish
out your college or if you go do that, like
you're kind of on your own.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
I'm like, gosh, dang it.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
But uh no, long story, so I wouldn't trade it
for the world, like the path I got, you know,
to being able to sit here and have the conversation
with you. You know, we're both in similar spots. But uh,
that was my that was my goal out of high school.
I didn't wasn't interested in getting what I would call
a normal job or doing the normal I didn't want
to go to college. But uh yeah, that was my goal,
is to do that guiding right out of high school.

(23:46):
But never never got to it.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Oh yeah, I never knew that about you.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah yeah, So, uh you got to hunt with a
lot of different elk hunters and and these when I
say elk hunters, guys that guys in get that were
maybe coming in for different experiences. Right when we booked
the ball, we booked it with the full understanding that
if we didn't kill anything, we'd get to see some
amazing country right and see, but there was still decent
elk and deer to be had in there. And then

(24:11):
you've got to see people that book on these ranches
with the intention of they probably just want to kill
the biggest bull they can as easy as they can
do it. Be back in the lawge drinking a whiskey
at night, you know, so you've got to see the
entire spectrum of elk hunters. Is there like a parallel
you can make regardless of whether they're in the wilderness
or whether they were down at the ranches that like
made a good elk hunter or made a good client,

(24:32):
or you know, is there any parallels you can make there?
Or maybe the major contrasts.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
You know, just trusting your guide it would have been
a major I guess it's kind of switches up your
question a little bit, but kind of a great parallel
between the two types of clients. That just made a
guide's job or my life so much easier, was just
to listen and trust your guide because they're doing it,

(25:00):
they've been doing it, and you know they're gonna ask
you for pointers or your opinion on a certain scenario.
But just follow the leader, whether you're on a horseback
or in the side of a pickup truck, just trust
your guide that he's taking you the right spot and
trying to get you the you know, most successful outcome
that you're paying for.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
Whether it's you.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Know, four thousand dollars for a nine day horseback hunter,
twelve thousand dollars for five day drive around and spot
one hundred elka day hunt, they're very different. But yeah,
does that answer your question?

Speaker 4 (25:37):
I feel like I pivoting.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah, No, For the most part, it's a tough
question to answer. So I'm gonna kind of twist it
up a little bit as I present it here. Is
so let's let's take away the ranch and let's just
focus on the public land, grinded out, a little bit
more physical, a little bit less guaranteed by by far

(25:58):
when you were up in the in and the bob, Like,
what do those hunters, let's say you're coming from out
east you've never experienced the West, or like, what do
these people need to be prepared for? Like what would
be your best guidance, you know, for them to hit
the ground running and maybe be successful.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
One hundred percent physical stamina, Like start preparing physically early
on That country we were in is very hard on people.
I guided people who had the sheep grand slam on
their walls that that elk hunt kicked their butt. It's
pretty rugged terrain. And any elk terrain, whether you're leaving

(26:35):
a leaving the pick up every morning or going deep
in on horseback or whatever, elk living really rugged terrain.
So just physically being fit, having your stamina as high
as you think you got, you can handle it. You know,
you owe the respect to the animal to say you
shoot something and doesn't drop right away, You owe that

(26:58):
animal a lot to be able to cantinue to grind
and try and recover that thing. Don't give up on it.
Also a mental stamina as well, not only physical but mental.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
If you got whether it's.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
Five days or ten days designated and something happens early,
or it's just the hunts not going your way, luck's
not having it, just stay in the game and yeah,
stay at it. Mental and physical stamina is so important
for l cunning.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, and one thing, I mean, I'm going to take
a little side approach, but even the physical side that
we rode there was a fire of the year I
went in there and we had to come in a
different direction. So we were on the horses for or
mules for thirty plus miles. There were a few of
us that had been working out fairly heavily, and we
were okay because we walked about eight miles and walked

(27:48):
our horses for another twenty two or whatever, you know,
plus or minus a few miles.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
It was along.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
It was before you know, dark to after dark sort
of a ride. There were some of the guys in
our crew that couldn't walk the next stage just because
of the horse ride, and you know, guys that aren't
horse guys or meal guys, and the guys that were
in better shape and have been working out, we were sore,
but we were able to go, you know. And so
it's like it all tied in like something I never
would have thought preparing for a for a hunt, because

(28:15):
I'm not a horse guy. I'm not a meal guy,
but you need that to be able to access that country,
like the physical win as far as that, and then
these guys that maybe needed some breaks, like the very
next day we didn't need to recoup from our base camp.
Then we spiked out an additional five miles because that's
where we thought, and these other guys were like, oh no,
we'll do it later in the hunt, and we went.
You know, we were there to go be successful, and

(28:38):
that was kind of our our mindset. And that's where
you know, we always look at physical and mental as different.
But I would always argue that a lot of your
mental will come from physically challenging yourself, because that's usually
where you start to question your Your mental starts to
come into play, as your sore or your feet hurt,
you're tired, you know, you're hungry or that, and so

(29:00):
you let that physical ability like start to affect your
mental you know, like, well, I'm gonna just hunt around
camp today, not saying it's not it's better than not
hunting at all, but it's also not as good as
climbing back up to the top of the mountain, you know,
where you think the critters might be or whatnot. And
so my advice is always getting as good a physical
shape as you can, and it's gonna limit either your

(29:21):
exposure to that like mental you know, breakdown or your
ability to talk yourself out of something. And then I'm
gonna add one more piece onto that, like good hunting partners.
I'd be lying to say that I'm always like at
the very top physically or at the very top mentally.
There are times where you need a hunting partner that's
just as dedicated to the cause as you, or somebody

(29:42):
you can you know, pitch ideas off of and and
at times when maybe I'm not feeling it, they'll pick
you up. And when they're filing down or out or
don't want to give it the extra effort, you're like, no,
we need.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
To go up there.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
And at least the group that I run with, like,
we push each other so hard that you never want
to let the other guy down. And so it's nice
to be able to like, now we're going up there,
and you're going with me, whether you want to or not.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
Mm hmmm, absolutely. Yeah, picking great partners for that is key.
And if you're ever going on a guided hunt, usually
typically not always, but your guide, you know, that guy
who's waking you up in the morning, getting you going
in the afternoons, keeping you keeping your head up.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, I I didn't realize, and I feel for the
I understand why we took the two hour naps because
they need I needed it anyways. But those guys are
out wrangling hobbled horses and mules at like three in
the morning, where we're still sleep and then they get
you up at four thirty and it's by time they're
done taking care of the horses. Like you guys deserve
a bigger tip than than I get. That I gave,

(30:40):
you know, and it was my good buddy, But I'm like, gosh, dang,
you know, these these cooks are up at three in
the morning starting your meals or lunches or whatever, and
I don't know, it's it's it's not not for the
faint of heart. You better not light, you better not
need sleep to be able to survive.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
Oh, it's a lot of hard work for sure, late nights,
long days.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
I mean you'd sneak in a little nap mid day
kind of you know, you want cool, uh, you know,
kind of overcast weather, you know, consistent weather, but you
also kind of hope for really hot weather, so you
can sneak in that two or three hour nap while
the elker yeah, down mid day, whatever it takes.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
But it's a lot of hard work.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
But yeah, it's it's you don't see too many older
like especially wilderness hunting guides. It's a young man's sport career,
but I wouldn't trade it for the world. Those are
the Those were the times back then.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
Man.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, all right, So let's diverge a little bit from
the clients, and I'm more interested in the elk. The
differences that maybe lived, you know, thirty miles from anywhere,
you know, elk that never seen a person compared to
these elk that live on a place that was pretty
much designed for their uh, you know, for them, for
them to for them to flourish, get as big as possible,

(31:52):
carry the absolute highest carrying capacity you can, versus the
opposite of just you know, being being in the middle
of the bob or some remote color out of wildernes
where they're just given with what's on the ground. Are
there any major differences when you'd go to hunt those
elk as far as the elk are concerned, or are
they different creatures as far as being able to call them,
pattern them whatnot?

Speaker 3 (32:12):
You know, it's hard to say. My original answer just
now is going to be that elk on some of
the private land obviously don't have the pressure as much
as public land, say, whether it's deep in the wilderness
or just your typical national forest trailhead.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
But elk on.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Private land don't seem to run away as far now
they're elk, they're skittish. You bump them once, that's probably
your only opportunity. But a lot of times they know
where the border that private and public land is and
they don't want to go to public because last time
they did that, they just got bumped right back on
to private. Even if those ranches are being hunted and

(32:53):
hunted hard, you know, with multiple clients every week, they
still know where the border is and they don't necessarily
want to leave. Now. It's what makes me backtrack that
answer a little bit. Is in the vast open public
land wilderness, what have you You bump an elk and
you're looking at such crazy massive country that you're not

(33:15):
going to ever be able to catch up to that.
Where on a big private ranch, yeah you can, you know,
give it a half a day and then drive your
truck over there and be to the other end of
the ranch where that elk headed, you know, within an
hour or so. So I think just the it's the terrain,
whether it's private or public. If if an elk runs
away from he or it goes over a ridge that
just doesn't look passable to your stamina or your whereabouts,

(33:39):
whether you're on foot, horse or vehicle. That's probably the
biggest difference is just the the terrain for the elk
and for the hunter.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, and one thing that you know, being able to hunt.
I haven't got the hunt. I have hunteds of private land,
but like the ability to pattern those elk, right, because
those elk one like, we know they're probably gonna go
bed here, They're probably gonna come out and feed here,
versus sometimes up in the mountains, you know, if.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
A cougar or a wolf runs through there.

Speaker 1 (34:08):
I mean it could happen on public or the private
chunk as well, but it seems like, you know, the
private stuff there may be a little more patternable, a
little more predictable, versus up in the mountains. It's like
they may feed in this section one day and then
for some reason, the lead cow takes them to a
different spot the next day to feed, or they're in
like you know, three or four day rotation, you know,

(34:29):
versus And one thing that I've heard and maybe you
can you can you know, solidify this answer. It's like
a lot of times on these ranches, they won't let
you go hunt them in bed right, because they do
not want you to disturb them. They don't they want
that pattern to be the same. You get your one
shot in the morning, why the wind's right, the bull
goes in there, you're taking the afternoon off.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Versus in the.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Mountains, it's like, you know, everybody on the mountain that
spotted any olk going into a bedding area are gonna
get bumped or killed one or the other. It's like
for the majority of guys, right, they're gonna go in
there and keep an elk until they either bump them
or kill them. And so that's one nice thing where
it's managed a little bit better. And I never fought
anybody for going a little bit harder on public ground

(35:11):
or mountainous ground, because that's your opportunity, right, But that
is one thing where I think that private land ranch stuff,
whereas if you've got rules in place that make sure
that those elk don't necessarily get ran out of there
is a pretty good system that their pattern stays the
same for quite a while.

Speaker 4 (35:28):
Yeah, that's very true.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
Well, yeah, I guide it on two different ranches here
in central Montana. Yeah, the latter one that I've guided on. Yeah,
if you weren't back for breakfast by eleven am, like
if you didn't have an elk on the ground, the
outfitter started getting a little suspicious that you were maybe
hunting a betting zone or something. That was definitely rule
number one was don't hit hunt the betting zones. You

(35:50):
bump an elk out of his bed, he's not coming
back for a while. And that was the last thing
we wanted. We wanted those elk to stay there, to
feel somewhat comfortable in your opportunity. And the more in
the evening was so great, whether we were sitting tree stands,
sitting by wallows, or spot in stock trying to get
be in the right place at the right time. It
was very open country, and of course the elk are

(36:11):
going to come out to those openings in the middle
of the night. And then where they would go in
was the limited betting areas, and those were just yeah,
do not enter or limits. Didn't want to be invited back,
and you wanted to be invited back as a client
or a guide.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
It was a cool place to con and I.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Think that lesson can maybe translate into public right right,
I mean we do. We talk about hunting betting areas,
and we talk about like midday magic. You know that
you can get into, but there is something to be
taken away, like if you want those elk to continue
their patterns and do what they've did the day before
and where you found them, going into their betting area

(36:48):
could could potentially change their patterns if you bump them
or blow them out of where they think a safe,
secure spot is. So I always, I mean, this is
a great way to reiterate, like, go in very cautiously,
whether you're on public, because you know that the guides
and the ranches are running the system for a reason
to make sure those oak continue to do what they've did.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, you know, it's smart, it's a smart system. Yeah.
So if you got time and you watch one go
into a betting zone, yeah maybe if you don't, you know,
if it's dry and crunchy, leave them be. But if
it's wet, drizzling and you might be able to sneak
in take your boots off, maybe it's worth going in there,
especially if you're limited on time.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
But yeah, you gotta that tough decision.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
So this this will be a good segue. I'm going
to ask you and then we're going to talk about
some of the hard You know, it's sometimes hard to
talk about elk cutting, right because you've been we've been
doing it for so long. Some of it's just kind
of ingrained into into our thought process. But is there
can you define what makes a good uh time.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
To go into a betting area?

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Is there is there like a few things you check
off a checklist where you will go into a betting area,
or how does that decision come about? Or there's just
so many factors we can't hardly talk about them.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
I don't know a few of the main factors. I'd say,
how many eyeballs just went in there? You know, if
it's a bowl and I don't know more than four
cows that went in there, that's a lot of eyeballs
you're trying to sneak in on unless you can. I
think that your ultimate scenario would be if you're like, say,
across a ravine, and you can see how they're bedded,
exactly where they're at, find yourself a little ambush route.

(38:19):
You know, you're fairly confident in which way the wind's
blowing in there, then you're set. But man, yeah, the
number of eyeballs, and then also how loud it is,
how crunchy the leaves and the and the pine meals
are going to be, you can always I've taken my
boots off a hundred times trying to sneak in on
an elk, and it's worked a couple of times. I
even took my my breeches off once just so I

(38:40):
didn't have my legs up swiping back and forth.

Speaker 4 (38:44):
That time it did not work.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
I was caught in the middle of a herd of elk,
running away with my pants down.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Literally.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
But man, yeah, eyeballs and the how dry it is. Man,
if you can get in somewhere where you know where
he's at or where your target is at, and if
it's like drizzling rain, your sense not you know, pushing
around as much, you got a pretty good chance of
getting close anyway.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, now I like it. We've tried to approach a lot,
but a lot of times we get turned away like
brush on the entry. We're gonna have to be noisy
to get in, Like if I've got good elk trails going,
and like you said, there weren't any satellite bulls.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
That's one thing that I almost.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Always abandoned the mission if there's a satellite bul because inevitably,
and it makes total sense when you think about it,
that satellite bowl doesn't get to bed with the herd, right,
that herd bowl will, and that satellite bowl almost always
gets kicked downwind of that. And so when we're approaching
to be good elk hunters, we're gonna come in with
the wind in our face. So tho'se olk can't smells.
But guess what elk you run into about one hundred

(39:45):
and fifty yards out, you run into that damn satellite bowl.
Almost every time we've tried to approach that way. And
so if we know there are a bunch of satellite
bowls around, it's it's proced at your own risk. Like
how late in the hunt is it? How quick you
need to try to make something happen if you've got
a lot of time left, we usually just leave it alone.
But yeah, this is a great segue into what we

(40:17):
We kind of talked about this a little bit before
we started recording. We talk about elk hunting, and all
of these are like very cookie cutter examples, Right, we
say the winds doing this, or the elk are doing this,
But a lot of times like what's the moon doing?
Has it rained for the last week? Are the elk running?
Are there cows and heat? How big are the herds?
How many satellite bowls? Like all of these things boil

(40:40):
in to our answers, and it makes it talking about
archery elk hunting. It makes it difficult. And I think
that's why we we a lot of times just talk
about our system. Right, It's easier for me to talk
about the system, But then all of these variables still
come into play. And one thing I got I got
a question the other to day, is is what makes

(41:03):
a good elk hunter? Or in your opinion? We were
talking about it around a campfire on the elk hunt
that I was just on and I kind of came
up with this is is I think most successful elk
hunters have a system that they use, they stick to
it for most part of the hunt. But the one
thing I've found out is if you look at all
the successful elk hunters, their systems aren't necessarily always similar.

(41:25):
And so I was trying to boil that down, like
how does all that work, and so what I've really
kind of said is is rather than try to play
every variable all the time, like just stick with a
you know, if you're a if you're a caller, call
if you're a spot in stocker spot, if you're what
have you found corey? As far as like what makes
somebody successful year in and year out?

Speaker 2 (41:44):
You know you you are.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Typically always able to kill your elk or help buddies
kill their elk fill their tags in your opinion, like
what makes a good elk hunter and consistent?

Speaker 3 (41:57):
Well, I brought it up earlier. I think just the
both is a g mental stamina. Odds are it's not
going to happen right away or even where your plan
A or even B spots are going to be. So
being able to stay with it mentally and physically obviously
and grind it out, don't just stopping your plan A

(42:18):
or B spot, say some other folks are there. There's
just not elk happening. It feels like the rut hasn't started,
or it feels like it could be a little late.
Maybe switch it up, be a little bit more open
to try a new area, whether that means driving somewhere
or having a hike, move camp. I think just kind
of keeping it open minded, you know, not sticking, not

(42:40):
having the tunnel vision for one plan. You know, having
a great plan A, plan B is important, but man
have a X, Y and Z plan too. Hopefully you
give you give yourself more than just a weekend. Obviously
you can get out every weekend of the season, that's great,
but give yourself five to ten days for an area
and don't assume that it's all going to happen right

(43:01):
then and there. So I think just being open minded
and then having that mental and physical stamina to last
you're you know, allotted hunt window is really important and
that's something that I've noticed I've been able to do.
Was younger, it was frustrating not having Plan A or BG, right,
but just being you know, knowing that you can't control

(43:21):
mother nature and having a plan X and Y in
your back pocket is super important and eventually it's going
to work out for you. Maybe not with meating the freezer,
but at least have a heck of a hunt yep.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
And that's one thing we learned as we started. You know,
I grew up industrial timberlands, hunting around home. You packed
your lunch for the days I started to venture out
and hunt what I'd consider more mountainous, more adventurous type
elk hunting. You know, we would go in like, well,
how are we going to carry all of our food?
You know, we hadn't had it dialed in, so we
would pack ten days of food into one camp six
miles in. Well, guess what that did? That locked me

(43:55):
into an area for the entire time. And it's like, well,
then you were based seeing your stay based on what
your food's already all in here, or you know, this
is what we had planned on doing for ten days
versus where I'm at now, where I packed maybe a
half a day's food, I can live off of it
for two days, and if there aren't elk there in
that half a day, I know I'm gonna be back
at the truck, going to a different trailhead or a
different area.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
You know.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
And it sounds so cliche, and we say it over
and over, but you need to be able to like
pull the plug and not be married to an area
or a spot because it looks good on on X,
it looks good on Google Earth, it looks good wherever.
If there aren't elk there on that year. So if
I can't go into a spot and find very fresh rubs,
very fresh signed elk scat you know whatever, like, I'm out.

(44:38):
And especially if you can't add a live elk to
those tracks, you know, a bugle or spot them with
your glasses, I'm out of there. And one thing, you know,
I think people overlook is like, well it looks kind
of fresh, like well that once that elk crap or track,
you know, if it hasn't rained or whatnot and washed
it out, Like those elk could have been there two
weeks ago and in the month of September.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Those things are moving.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
If they got bump out of there, they might have
won a drainage over and never came back. Like you
just might be in the wrong spot. So yeah, I
feel that being willing to move, get out of a spot,
go try plans, you know, be through Z or whatever
it needs to be, like, have the ability to open
up on X or whatever mapping software you use. Say, oh,
I think this spot might be good. It's going to

(45:20):
take me, you know, an hour and a half hike
in this three miles is where I want to be in.
Go try it out that night. You know, one thing
we talk about is if you need to if you
need the third part of the day, like go locate
at night time, like do whatever you gotta do. But
you need to find some elk and just keep moving zones.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
Mm hmm, yeah, even if it means changing mountain ranges.
You know, at least where elk tend to live in
the Rocky Mountain West. You got a lot of options
and any you know, unless you have a trophy unit
tag where you're restricted to a certain zone, you're just
carrying a general elk tag in your pocket. Man, you
got a lot of country to explore, so go check

(45:58):
something new out. You might have had a great spot
that was great last year, was great the year before,
historically a great zone. They're not there this year. Switch
it up or or also stick to it. You know,
if it's been a good spot, they might just not
be in there yet.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
You know.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
It's I've been amazed by the number of times where
I've given up on a spot. Well, not one hundred
percent given up, but like, man, tomorrow, I'm leaving if
I don't see anything in the morning, and sure enough
a huge hurd al moved in overnight and there they are.
So it's tough what to say, you know, flip a
coin to make a decision, because it's it's a lot
of skill, but man, there's a lot of luck involved.

Speaker 4 (46:34):
Don't forget that for sure.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
So we're recording this on September fifth. We both just
came off of you know, you got the hunt a
little bit over Labor Day weekend. I just came off
of a hunt Labor Day weekend.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
And one or.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Actually two of the things we were dealing with on
for both of us is the moon.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
We're coming up.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
We were out a full moon the on Thursday, I believe,
which was August thirty first, and.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Then we rolled in.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
We got a bunch of weather Thursday, Friday, and then
coming from Washington, it hit you guys, what Saturday, Sunday?

Speaker 2 (47:02):
I think, yeah, Monday.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, so you guys got the weather after us. So
next thing I want to talk about is your opinion
on does the moon matter and how that affects it versus.
And then we'll jump into the rain in that system
that rolled through.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
Yeah, I don't hunt during a full moon. Stay home,
elk aren't even out out in the woods.

Speaker 4 (47:24):
I don't know where they go.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
But no, I'm totally kidding. I'm sure it affects them.
And I've always had this theory that whenever like the second, third,
fourth week of September lines up with a full moon,
that's going to be kind of towards the peak rut,
the elk get to do their dance during the evening
twilight hours while they can see a little bit better,

(47:45):
they get to roam a little bit more. I don't
know if that theory is true, has any any truth
to it or not, but man, when elk are fired up,
they're fired up. And if it's the third week September wherever,
you know kind of the peak time might be for
your region, whether it's a full moon or a new moon,
I don't think it matters. Honestly, I haven't noticed anything.
I've killed elk on a full moon and I've killed

(48:06):
elk on a new moon.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
It's hard to tell what it is.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
I know it's easier to sleep with a new moon
because it kind of keeps you up at night with
it's full blasting in your eyeballs.

Speaker 4 (48:16):
But yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
Fourteen years a guide, in twenty plus years of just
hunting myself, I haven't noticed. Yeah, at least in September
a difference with the moon.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
I'm I'm right there with you, And I just kind
of sum it all up is there's only so many
days in September. I'm going to be out there as
much as possible. One the one thing that throws a
little bit of a of a wrench in my system
is maybe somebody contacts me with I only got one
week to hunt? And then do you put them around
the moon? I usually don't. I still say what do
you after? Like do you want post? Like do you

(48:49):
want peak of the rut? Then you have to be
there on this week, regardless of whether the moon's are
or not. That's when you're going to get your most action,
you're most bugling. And so yeah, I don't pay a
whole lot of attention to the moon. And this is
going to everybody, how big of a nerd I am.
I had went back, I'd looked at a bunch of
trail cameras and then like timed it with what the
moon was on that and what time they were showing
up at a specific wallow, And it didn't really matter

(49:12):
when the full moon was there, they showed up a
little bit later, they didn't They weren't coming in the daylight,
and they left a little bit earlier, but it really
didn't affect things through the end of August into like
the middle of September, I think, is when we ran
that cam and then I had just looked at like
there for a stretch of like the ten bulls I
had killed that was like from I don't even remember
two thousand and five to twenty fifteen, and I had

(49:35):
looked at all the bulls that I had killed, and
almost all of them were within four or five days
of a full moon. It's just how it landed, how
it had added up, and you know, someone were on
the front side. Some people, you know, the moon. The
guys that claimed the moon really matters always say that
you want to be on the back side of the
full moon, you know, tailing off. But it was five
days before or five days after. It didn't really seem

(49:56):
to matter. There was no correlation with with when I
killed and what the moon was doing.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Interesting, well, I know you brought it up that this
was going to be our next topic, so this is
kind of segues. But I certainly think weather has more
drastic involvement with elk Habits versus the moon.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah, So what's your opinion on like a rain system
or a snow system that moves in. Let's say, you
know it's it's been decent weather, rain moves in in
your opinion or what have you seen that do to
the elk or the rut Man.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
What I've seen consistent, whether whether it's rain or dry
is key. So you know, having a week of rain,
they're still going to do their thing. But having a
week of dry and then all of a sudden a
rainstorm comes in. I've certainly noticed it. It's shut down,
or at least it feels like it shuts down. I
always assume that estrous smell of cows breeding, that scent

(50:51):
in the air just kind of gets locked down with
that moisture in the air, is what I've always assumed.
But man, I've chased elk that have bugled all day
long and a the rain that turned to snowstorm. Two
bowls dueling it out for about thirty or forty cows
all day. Never been able to get close enough to
the bulls. Could have shot a few of the cows
many times, but that didn't affect them one bit. And

(51:13):
it was a snow rainstorm that came in after some
eighty degree heat and then it was the next day.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
So I've kind of seen it all.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
But it does seem like the rain that kind of
comes out of nowhere and breaks up a dry week
at least in September. You know, we're still dealing with
some warmer tempts right now versus say later October November.
That it does affect them, whether they just don't dance
in the rain or the scent or something. But it's

(51:41):
still worth going out, no doubt, yep.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
And I've my my experience is almost mirrored years that
it's not so much the consistent rain or the consistent sun,
but it's a change, and within like three days of
that change, you know, it's on the.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Tail tail end of it.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
So for instance, we haven't had rain for ninety plus
days or something like that. We were getting ready to
go hunting, and Thursday we get that downpour before we leave,
and it really quieted things down to compared to what
everybody said that the elk were doing that unit, and
they slowly started picking back up as the weather was
getting nice again. And the same thing I think if
it's been raining for you know, five six, seven days,

(52:19):
the elk are getting used to it, and all of
a sudden you get a high pressure moveing and it
gets nice. It's like, all right, it takes a couple
more days for things to like get back in the
in the normal. And you know, so we've had, you know,
up in the high country, we've got snow a little bit,
and it doesn't it seems to be more of like
middle ground. It doesn't seem to for some reason snap
them in or out as much as rain versus sun.

(52:39):
But that just maybe my limited experience in the high country,
but it seems like the rut just kind of continues on,
at least in the snow. I don't know why or
how come, but just from my experience, the snow didn't
seem to affect them as much as the rain.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
Yeah, no, I know.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
And you can't pick the dates necessarily, Excuse me. You
can't pick the weather of a hunt that you've had
planned for weeks, months, or years even. But you know,
an ideal weather condition would be just like consistent sixty
or seventies, maybe a little chance of rain here or there.
But you know, if you're if you're crossing your fingers
for weather, just hope for consistency for sure.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yep, yeah, I like that overcast with a little you know,
fifty percent cloud cover good, you know, mid mid tamp's
cool in the morning, crisp in the morning, and then
you know, maybe heat up to six or seventy in
the afternoon. Like that's that's my favorite. The other thing
I hate systems coming in and out is because it
screws with your wind on both ends of it, right

(53:34):
is you get these pushes. Now all of a sudden,
you're not just dealing with the local thermals. Uh, You're
now dealing with these crazy swirlling winds. It's just a
headache to deal with.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
And that's possible. You got to wonder if that affects
the elk, you know, their their habits. They get a
little nervous when they're so used to that southwest wind,
at least here in Montana prevailing winds southwest, and then
all of a sudden it's out of the northeast. They're like, oh,
I got to you know, change my location where I'm
going to feel comfortable during.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
The day, not going to talk as much.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
It must affect them as well, So yeah, you definitely
got to change up your tactics.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, I mean, not that we need to think like
an elk, but we've all watched them in the morning.
They go from their feed to their bed, and then
they bed down, and then they go from their bed
to their feed. Well, one thing that I didn't think
about a whole lot is a lot of times they
let that wind switch and they're feeding with whatever predator
would be in front of them. They're feeding out into
that wind, right, and they're doing it. They're not dumb.

(54:31):
They're they're always smelling what's ahead of them, whether their
eyes can pick it up or not. But they typically
will will feed with the wind in their face. That
way they can smell any danger that they're walking into. Well,
like you had just mentioned, you switch the wind on
them one hundred and eighty degrees. Well, now that betting
and feeding area connection is like broken up, right, But
they can't do that. They've got to go to a

(54:51):
different feeding betting area combo or connection, and so it
really and maybe that's why, maybe that's why it really
kind of throws their pattern off. But yeah, I've noticed
that you know, wind switches, or you've hunted an area
for two or three days, you've about got it figured out,
and all of a sudden, some weather moves in and
your plan that you'd been building is completely thrown out

(55:11):
the window. You can't do it anymore because the winds
goofy and they're uncomfortable and they've changed your pattern.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
Well, it's question as old as time.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
Every elk that I try and ask, or at least
that I try and get close enough to ask the question,
they seem to be dead on the ground, so I
never get the chance to ask them. But one of
these days, maybe I'll get to whisper in an elk's
here and ask them what's up with their habits?

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Yeah, I wish I could figure all that out.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
I'd be a lot better elk hunter, I think, than
just taking a guess at all this stuff or what's
worked one time but then it doesn't work the next
twenty times. That's the only thing that's like a given
when it comes to elk hunting is that it's never
going to be the same from time to time, scenario
to scenario. I feel like you can have all the
factors exactly the same on scenario a versus being the
results will be different just because of that elk's personality

(56:00):
or or something that that elk just isn't going to
do the same thing. And that's I mean, I don't
claim to know, but I feel that there's some of
that that goes on where one bowl might be full
of piss and vinegar that you're trying to hunt, and
one bowl might just want to avoid any confrontation. And
one thing us as elk hunters need to figure out
is how do you deal with each one based on
the way they be agle, the way they react to calling,

(56:22):
the way they react by just watching them through binos.
And that's some more of this stuff we talked about earlier,
which I kind of stumbled through on how to describe it,
is that all of these little tips and tactics get
like brought into the decisions, like that bull's super hesitant,
or you see a bowl over there, like trying to
rip a satellite's head off. Anytime it gets within a
couple hundred yards, you're like, well that's a bowl I
can challenge, you know, or get close to. It just

(56:42):
seems pissed versus you know, one that doesn't really care
for satellites. I don't know, all that stuff matters and
should affect like your next move.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
When you're out there, el cutting keeps you on your
toes for sure.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
So well, I really appreciate having you on here, Corey.
I know you're you're getting ready to take off for
for the month of September and I've got a got
a hunt coming up. So uh, the best of luck,
And like I said, really appreciate you coming on here
and talking oak cunning here.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm excited, man, We'll be
in touch. Best luck to you. I know you got
some fun trips planned or one big epic trick plan
for sure. I can't wait to hear how it goes.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
Yeah, all right, we'll take care. We'll catch up to
you on the backside of hunting season.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
Sounds good, Jason. Thanks again.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
H