November 16, 2025 • 40 mins
Titi and Zakiya sit down with Dr. Darrell West from the Brookings Institution to unpack what’s really going on behind the economy and job numbers. We talk about why unemployment stats can underestimate pain, how cuts to NIH/NSF and university funding hit entire local economies built on “eds and meds,” and why AI is shaking up the knowledge sector. We also hear from a Dope Labs listener who is a laid-off pharma worker. This lab asks what it will take for workers, students, and policymakers to keep the innovation engine running.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It feels like we all have whiplash from the policy
changes that are happening in the United States of America right.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Now, right right. The rent is high, groceries are high.
You want to play sixty five dollars to make a
turkey and cheese sandwich.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Wow, that's no condiments. People are being laid off. Jobs
are hard to come by. We even had a listener
right in and ask us. They say, hey, and Dope
Labs cover the current state of the economy and the
possibility for the future. Hey, you know what that means.
Your wish is our command. Friend. I'm TT and I'm Zakiyah,
and this is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a
(00:43):
weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and
a healthy dose of friendship.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
This week, we're breaking down the vital signs of the
US economy, zooming in on the stem and life sciences world,
asking an economists how we got here and what comes next.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know that the economy is a big word, okay,
and it feels unpredictable and like something that my mind
can't fully wrap itself around, Like the economy is how
much groceries, cout how much fundings universities get, and there
are so many different lists that you have to consider
when you're talking about the economy. Yes, no, yes, and
(01:30):
even within that, like how does the labor market fit
into that? Because the jobs numbers are swinging And I
don't know about you, but when I submit a report,
it's supposed to be done no revisions, but they're coming
back with revisions months later, and that.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Feels confusing to me.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Right, they're saying, oh, psych, there's actually a million less
jobs than we say.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And we only said nine hundred thousand.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
There's negative jobs. There's negative jobs, and it feels like
with jobs that stem jobs, they're being really hard too.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, I just know that I'm tired. And it feels
like everyone is anxious, Like the conversation about the economy
is showing up. You're like, ah, yes, I like a
macha and they're like, yeah, but the economy, like it's
showing up everywhere.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Macha in this economy. Yeah yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I'm making my macha home. That's me talking to myself
in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
So what do we want to know?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, I want to know how economists are actually measuring
this stuff like the economy, and is the labor market
included in that? Is a labor market measured separately? Like
what's happening?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And why are the job numbers swinging so wildly?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
You know what I mean? Like a million jobs? Yeah,
that's a lot of job That doesn't feel like a
rounding error. No, that feels like somebody was asleep at
the keyboard, just held down to zero exact. And what's
been the ripple effects of the cuts to federal research
funding that we saw at the top of the year.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Is that what.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
We're seeing now with the stem job landscape?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Right? And what about AI You know that's a dirty
word for some folks, But how is that changing the
job landscape? I thought it was going to be like
a boom, so I'm interested in that. And then where
does immigration fit into all of this because there's been
a lot of rhetoric online m hm hm. And how
can we I guess, students, workers, everybody that is involved
(03:26):
in the economy adapt.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, how do we get some stability? I want them
to stop shaking the table.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
To answer these questions, We're talking to Daryl West from
the Brookings Institution, which is a Washington, DC based think tank.
They do research on a wide variety of public policy topics,
and prior to that, Daryl was a professor of political
science and public policy at Brown University.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So, Daryl, before we jump into science funding, I think
it's important for us to make sure that we're all
on the same page because people are throwing terms around
like the economy and the labor market, and these mean
different things to people depending on who you ask. And
so when an economist says the economy, what exactly is
(04:15):
included in that picture? Like what are those markers?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Those are all the economic activities that take place in
our country. So that includes unemployment, is certainly one of
the big indicators, inflation rate, gross domestic product output, all
the subsectors that make up the economy healthcare, education, transportation, technology,
and the like. So the term economy really encapsulates all
(04:39):
of the activities paid or some unpaid, that take place.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's great, and I mean that makes economy sound just
as big as we feel like it is because it's
always a hot button topic. It's what is on the
tip of everyone's tongue these days. And we've seen some
really big swings in the jobs numbers with the most
recent furlough to cuts for government jobs and cuts and
(05:05):
research and just the job market just really being a
tough place right now. And sometimes it feels like the
economy is cooling and other times it feels like there's
record job growth. Can you help us understand what drives
those shifts and what the job numbers really tells us
about the health of our economy.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
The economy does seem to be slowing down overall. When
you look at unemployment, it is rising. Certainly, the tariff
policies of President Trump has created a lot of uncertainty
in the business community. When business leaders are cautious, they
tend to pull back on hiring. So the unemployment rate
is probably the basic indicator that most people follow, but
(05:45):
it's an aggregate number, so there's a lot of noise
and activity that takes place below that number. Different types
of people in the population have different unemployment levels. People
look at the overall participation in the job market. Technically,
the unemployment rate just measures of the percentage of those
(06:06):
people who are looking for jobs. How many people are unemployed,
So the employment aspect can mask different things that are
going on, like if the economy is really bad. People
get discouraged from looking, and so they quit looking. Technically,
they no longer are part of the unemployment rate at
that point, because the unemployment rate just focuses on those
(06:27):
who are looking who are not able to find a job.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Wait a minute, Wow, how do they That is mind
blowing for me? Is it after thirty days you drop off?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Like?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
What's the cutoff?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well, this is the reason why the unemployment rate can
mask a lot of other things that are going on.
Like right now, the official unemployment rate in the United
States is about four and a half percent, which doesn't
sound very high by historic standards. It's actually at the
lower end in terms of the employment figures. But there
are people who are called discouraged workers, people who want
(07:00):
to work, maybe have tried for a little while, have
not been able to find a job. They get discouraged
and they quit looking. Therefore they drop out of the
unemployment rate. They are still there, they still do not
have a job. So sometimes the economy is worse than
the economic numbers would actually suggest, and I think that
is likely to be the case right now. There are
(07:21):
probably people who would like to have a job. They
perhaps have gotten discouraged because they've been looking and not
able to find anything. A lot of the big companies
have announced layoffs in a recent months, so I think
it's one of the reasons why you can have a
relatively low unemployment rate, but yet the economy still is
not doing very well and people feel poorly about the
(07:44):
national economy.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
But I'm curious how that's tracked. How do they track
when somebody has disengaged from looking for a job.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
There are both public surveys and surveys of businesses that
track a variety of economic indicators. With businesses, they're asking
people about their hiring rates each month. There are surveys
that go out to a large number of businesses that
you know, ask a series of questions. Now, of course,
the problem right now is with the government shutdown, those
(08:14):
surveys actually are not taking place, and so many of
the economic indicators that we typically follow are at least
a month out of date because the people who would
collect that information have been furloughed. They're not working, they're
not collecting the survey information. So we're actually flying a
bit blind as a result of the government shutdown, And
(08:37):
obviously the longer that shutdown continues, the more of a
problem that creates because you know, business leaders have to
make decisions. They want the best and most up to
date information. We're not getting that right now, So the
government shutdown creates a lot of problems in terms of
collecting economic data.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
That makes a lot of sense. Now, I want to
go back a little bit too, before the government shut down,
when we saw the reporting of numbers of this many
jobs being available, then the switch to like, no, it
wasn't there aren't these many jobs available. And you've helped
us understand economy and all these different factors for the economy.
But when we talk about like labor market, I've been
(09:16):
hearing reports that say, like the labor market is tight
or is soft, and I'm like, what does that mean?
In plane talk? And then what's going into determining that.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
One of the things that creates the greatest difficulty for
people who even follow these statistics is the Bureau of
Labor Statistics is the part of the government that collects
all this information, and so on a monthly basis, they
do these surveys and then once a month they put
out the unemployment rate. But then a lot of times,
(09:46):
since the data are based on surveys of businesses, the
preliminary number can be revised in the following month because
more businesses have responded with any survey that you're sending,
Like there are a bunch of people who respond right away,
and then there are other people who respond two weeks later,
three weeks later, or four weeks later. So the beer
(10:08):
of labor statistics will revise the numbers, and in recent
months sometimes the revisions have actually been really big in
either direction. Either they can make the economy look better
or worse based on that revision. This is upsetting to
people like Trump used that as an argument that the
numbers are unreliable, that the people who work there are biased,
(10:31):
they're trying to make him look bad by reporting bad
numbers for the economy. That actually is not the case.
You know, these are professional economists who are compiling the data.
But when you have big revisions each month, it does
make people wonder, like, why are there so many revisions,
Why aren't the numbers more consistent and more reliable?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And I feel like those numbers will also contribute to
what you were saying when someone gets fatigued with applying
for jobs, because if you realize there's actually a million
less jobs, available. I would imagine that that might end
up fluctuating that number as well. Like Takia was saying
at the very beginning, I look a lot at the
(11:12):
research funding and things like that, and means a key
have a lot of conversations about this because you know,
we both have doctorates, we both benefited from research funding.
And when the federal government cut back on research funding,
can you talk about the ripple effects that that has
on the broader economy, Because some people when they hear
these things, they're like, Okay, who cares, so you won't
(11:34):
be able to test that frog or whatever, But we
know it's bigger than that.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Now, you're exactly right, that's a very good question. I mean,
when the government over the last year has cut back
on research funding, especially money that was going to universities,
it's actually been devastating. Like there are a lot of
young people and a lot of professors who depend on
that money for their research. As soon as the money
either slowed or got eliminated, me a lot of universities
(12:01):
had to lay off people. You know, this would be
devastating for a young person starting out in the field
of science, engineering, math, or otherwise. Like they were counting
on a certain level of support for their graduate studies
and the money basically got yanked. So that would be
devastating for those individuals. But you're also right, there's a
broader issue, like beyond those individuals, you know, the impact
(12:23):
on the academics who were assuming that funding was going
to come through. The economic impact for entire communities can
actually be quite substantial. In many cities across the United States,
two of the big drivers are what we call eds
and mets, educational institutions and all the medical and health
related institutions. The whole hospital establishment, the healthcare community, the
(12:48):
doctors like that generates a lot of jobs. And what
the administration has done has disrupted both the educational communities
and the healthcare establishment, and so devastating for many cities.
They have counted on the economic growth and the jobs
generated by these types of institutions, and in the last
(13:10):
six months they can no longer count on that money.
Even when there are being court rulings demanding that the
federal government resume the funding, it's not clear that the
administration has followed up to the degree that judges have required.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Daryl, I want to share with you a letter that
we received from a Dope Labs listener, and they wrote
this to us in August and as part of why
we're talking to you, and I'd love to just hear
your reaction or what you think based on what they said.
They said, Hi, Dope Labs. I think a podcast episode
focusing on today's science job market would be a great idea.
I've spent over seven years working in the farharmaceutical industry,
(14:01):
but after being laid off from a major biotech company,
I've found it incredibly difficult to secure a new role.
I've seen many others share similar struggles in online communities
like Reddit, and it's discouraging to realize how widespread this
has become. So many of us have dedicated our careers
and lives to advancing science, yet with the way things
(14:21):
are now, it can feel like this work is no
longer appreciated or valued. Covering this topic could remind people
why it is worth staying the course in their studies
or in careers in science and give them hope to
keep moving forward. And I won't share their name, but
I'm curious your response to this, and I don't know
if you can give that type of recommendation, but if
you have any kind of forecasting. Should people be following
(14:44):
these careers, Should they pursue this with the way things
look now?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Well, first of all, I feel for that person. That
person is not unique. I know there are many examples
of other people who have had exactly the same experience
over the last year. Some do to cut back and
government funding, some do to as in this case, companies
just laying off individuals. You know, we've all seen the
(15:07):
stories about AI starting to affect a number of different industries.
AI is doing more and more sophisticated tasks, including in
the research area. AI can do things that gradu students
and faculty used to do on their own. So the
combination of all these things has been very destabilizing, and
I do worry what it's going to mean for the
(15:29):
future in the United States, because you know, what actually
has made America great has been the innovation economy, our
scientific establishment. Like this is the reason so many foreign
students want to come to the United States because they
know America has the best universities in the world, and
a lot of these people come here they'd like to stay.
(15:50):
Some of them end up starting their own companies. So
they're a vital part of what is propelled American prosperity
the creation of jobs and the fact that the United
States has been very innovative in a lot of different areas.
So to the extent that the we're cutting back in
that area, either through research funding or if big pharmaceutical
(16:13):
companies are laying off people, or if immigration policies are
making it very difficult for foreign students who get educated
here and would like to stay but they're no longer
able to do that, all of that is going to
have a very detrimental effect on our future economy. Like
people seem to think we can do all these things
(16:34):
and everything else is going to stay the same, and
that is just simply not the case. Without all of
the ingredients that drive the innovation economy, we're not going
to have the same level of economic prosperity in the
future that we have had over the last couple of decades.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes, and I know that you often talk about the
future of work and so, like Zekia was saying, folks
that are post docs in the life science, is post
docs technicians even undergrads thinking about research careers. I feel
like we're going to see a decrease in the amount
of folks interested in it, and I think that that
is overall just a bad situation for the country. I
(17:13):
do want to touch on something that you brought up
just now. I would love to hear more about how
AI is affecting the job market.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
This has been the big topic in recent months. I mean,
there have been lots of headlines where companies have announced
layoffs and the companies themselves are saying one of the
reasons they're getting rid of humans is AI is doing
the work that these humans used to do. For example,
software coding development, all these things have been in very
(17:43):
hot demand for a number of years. It turns out
AI can actually do that stuff pretty well, and so
some of these companies have said, you know, these are
tech companies, forty percent of their layoffs have been due
to AI being able to do the jobs that these
humans used to do. So I think it is creating
a problem in the entire STEM field, and it's not
(18:05):
just in the computer area. Like a lot of what
happens in the knowledge sector is basic research, and basic
research consists of a variety of different things. It's like
doing a literature review to find out what's going on
in the field, collecting data, analyzing, data, interpreting the data,
(18:26):
writing reports, having summaries of what comes out of various studies.
It turns out AI can actually do many of those things,
and so the implications of the rise of AI for
the entire knowledge sector, I think are actually quite serious,
and so we need to think about how we build
the next generation of scientific talent in a world that
(18:49):
increasingly is being driven by AI. You don't want robots
and AI to be doing all the jobs and humans
having no role in it. Like, that's not a good
rest of for creative solutions coming out of the future.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
But then I'm curious, what is it then? Right then,
what does it look like to be a scientist prepared
for work in the future. What does it look like
to adapt and be ready to respond to these changes?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Well, there certainly are jobs that are going to be lost,
and we're already seeing that. But the good news is
there actually are new kinds of jobs that are being created,
So this is kind of the optimistic side of all this.
In the data area, people who have really good data
analysis skills are still in hot demand, particularly those who
(19:37):
are skilled at working with very large data sets, data
sets that may number in the hundreds of thousands or
even millions of records associated with them, So that's an
important skill, and the digital economy is just creating so
much data. Anybody who has data skills like cleaning data sets,
analyzing information, interpreting information, I think still be an important thing.
(20:02):
There are other types of new jobs where companies and
organizations are trying to integrate AI into their operations and
improve their administrative processing, their financial management. Like there's a
wide variety of things, but it actually is not such
a simple matter just to add AI to your organization
(20:24):
and expect people to be able to figure it out.
So they're going to mean new jobs that I would
describe as something like management, innovation, organizational dynamics, kind of
figuring out how AI works in the ways that organizations
particularly need, Like to really automate functions, you have to
break down every administrative task into its component parts, and
(20:49):
even the simple thing like paying a bill, there may
be like five six or seven steps involved with that,
and so the process of automation means taking a look
at each of those those five six or seven steps,
figuring out how to automate that, how to link that
sequence of activities, and then how to integrate all that
so you actually get the right answer. At the end
(21:10):
of that, there are going to be jobs for people
who actually know how to do that. So that will
involve scientists who understand AI, people who understand organizations, and
then people who are used to dealing with human beings
that can actually sit down with you or I and
explain you know, this is how we're integrating AI into
our operations. So there are going to be a bunch
(21:31):
of new types of jobs that are being created. If
you look at the types of job ads that organizations
are starting to put out now, there are job listings
that have the strangest titles like jobs I've never heard of.
But yet these organizations are understanding that as technology gets
integrated into their operations, they need new types of people
(21:54):
who have different types of skills. So there will be
lots of new opportunities. But the key thing is making
sure people have the training that will qualify them for
those new types of jobs.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And that means changing the perspective that a lot of
folks in higher education have on AI, because I think
in the beginning it was like, Oh, all these students,
they're just cheaters, they're using AI for everything. But I
think we're past that now, and now we have to
start teaching them how to use it to their benefit.
Just like when Google hit the scene and everybody felt
(22:26):
like there was just all this information at your fingertips,
no one had to think about anything. But now we've
learned how to use it in better ways, even though
some people's Google searches are very different from the rest
of the population. We've talked about a lot of the
tough things going on with the economy, but I am
interested from your perspective at Brookings, how you would describe
(22:46):
the overall state of the US economy right now, but
then also what you would do or how you would
fix our economy, Like, because you know, people are we
just had an election, the exit pole, they're saying that
the economy was the most important thing for folks. What
are the steps that were needed in order to course correct.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I mean, the biggest word I hear when I talk
to people about the economy, including people in the business community,
is uncertainty. Like I think the thing that has really
screwed up our economy this year is there's so much
policy generated uncertainty. So you have the whole tariff situation,
like most businesses in America involve some importing of foreign goods.
(23:34):
They may assemble an item in the United States. They
may rely on a service here, but somewhere along the way,
there's something happening abroad that needs to come here to
help them do what they need to do. With Trump's
tariffs problems, it seems like every other week he changes
the tariff rate on China or India or Brazil or Argentina,
(23:56):
and so these countries like their heads are spinning, and
then the business people who are having to make decisions
when they don't know what their supply chain looks like
is just completely problematic. The same thing is true in
terms of immigration, Like the United States economy depends on immigrants.
Immigrants are doing a large percentage of the job in agriculture,
(24:19):
the hotel industry, restaurants, construction. I mean, you can kind
of go down a very long list of sectors. Immigrants
are doing a lot of work in those areas. We've
all seen the raids that are taking place in a
number of major cities across the country that's completely disrupted
the immigrant portion of the market. That creates enormous problems
(24:41):
for the business communities. So if you ask me, how
do we make the American economy better? It's like our
policy has to become more consistent. Our leaders have to
adopt policies that actually make sense given the way our
economy operates. Like, you know, you can kind of have
in your head this mythical notion that only native born
(25:03):
Americans are going to get the jobs in America, and
that's a complete fantasy. Like, our economy doesn't operate that way.
Businesses don't operate that way. So the administration is trying
to force a model of the economy on the country
that is just completely unrealistic. So fixing the economy involves
(25:24):
kind of removing all of the things that are actually
disrupting the market, creating uncertainty, paralyzing business leaders, leading them
not to invest, and they end up not hiring people
because they don't know what the environment is going to be.
That's completely problematic. We need to fix that.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
I think that is so so true, Darryl. You just
really snapped. It helped us understand all of these things
that are happening. And it feels like you're saying, hey,
look at the data, look at how this system works.
Before we start tinkering and I would love for you
to kind of talk about, especially because we started out
in the STEM area, if you were able to talk
to us about like how immigrant populations contribute to our
(26:01):
STEM economy and workforce so people have an understand of that,
and then broader how we can see immigrant labor in
our market.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Immigrants have been a vital part of the whole technology
sector for many years. Like I'm sure you recall from
your own experiences in graduate school, like when you go
into the graduate programs of any leading university in any
of the STEM fields science, technology, engineering, or math, a
(26:30):
majority of the students and sometimes it's two thirds or
three quarters actually coming from abroad. Immigrants have been a
very important part of the STEM field because the data
suggests data born Americans have not gone into these fields,
or they've gone in, or they've gotten discouraged and they've
dropped out. I mean, there are lots of different things
that are going on there, and so it's hard to
(26:53):
know how our technology innovation is going to continue in
the future without some involvement from immigrants. They have a
lot of technical expertise. There's tremendous talent all around the world,
and companies have relied on that for several decades right now,
(27:15):
so clearly we need immigration reform. We need kind of
a more standardized way for people who want to come
to America to actually do that. Right now, it's kind
of a free for all because the last major immigration
reform was in the nineteen eighties, So I mean we're
talking about like almost forty years ago, and the world
(27:36):
has just changed so much in that time. Our policies
have not kept up with the changes that are taking place.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Is that the trend like before nineteen eighty If.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
You look historically, immigration reform generally takes place once every
twenty years, thirty years, or forty years. I mean, it's
a difficult subject, Like there are lots of different things
that are going on. People have complicated feelings about immigrants
and what it means to be an American, so it's
hard for our political system to deal with that, and
(28:06):
typically only once a generation or once every other generation
there's an opportunity that comes along, people are able to
pass some reform, but most of the time we're in
the same situation we are now, which is the system
is completely screwed up. Everybody recognizes it's screwed up. But
yet we can't muster the political will to actually fix it.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So for the folks that are listening that are saying, yes,
doctor Wes, you are so wise, this is exactly what
is going wrong. These are the things that we need
to know. But I am just one person, and I
am not an economist. What advice would you give to
folks about impacts that they can have with their local
(29:00):
government that can help them on a smaller scale, but
then has ripple effects that could reach across the country.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Well, the thing that I tell young people when I'm
talking to them is, given all the changes that are
taking place in the economy, the workforce, technology, and everything else,
they're going to need to be devoted to what we
call lifelong learning. Like when I was growing up, the
model was you kind of invest in education up through
(29:29):
about age twenty five, and then after that you don't
really have to worry too much. Like you may learn
some things on the job, but both of you are
much younger. You're going to face a world where you're
going to have to upgrade your job skills at ages thirty, forty, fifty,
and sixty literally throughout your adult lifetimes. Everybody else is
going to have to do the same thing because the
(29:49):
job market is changing. Old jobs are disappearing, new jobs
are being created. People are going to have to adapt
to an era of change. You may be trained in
one field, you may end up having to develop skills
that put you in a different area. And so people
regularly are going to have to take adult education classes
(30:10):
avail themselves of professional development opportunities. Like everybody is just
going to have to learn new skills throughout the rest
of their life. Now, at one level, that's actually not bad.
As an educator, I like the fact people have to
constantly educate themselves, But there is a societal question of
who pays for this, Like you know, for elementary school,
(30:31):
for high school, and for college. We as a society
have always said this is important, we will help finance education.
We've never actually made that commitment for adult education or
professional development. So right now, when people have to upgrade
their job skills, generally they have to pay for it themselves.
We as a society need to understand that's actually an
(30:53):
important part of our economy now. We need to provide
that kind of assistance. The worst case scenario is people
just being up behind, not having the skills not qualifying
for any of the new jobs that are being created,
and we end up with a permitted underclass. Ah.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So basically we need night school vouchers. Say it's time
for everybody to go back to school. You get a
voucher every five to ten years, take some new classes.
I think that is really a great response to our
changing market. But it seems like everything on our car
of the economy and the United States, all the lights
are on. Everything needs to be checked. We need to
(31:30):
all change, we need break fluid flush. If you were
the orchestrator of this, what goes first? What has the
biggest ripple effect in your mind?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I mean, the first thing that needs to happen is
we need to be talking about these issues of workforce changes,
how technology is changing the nature of the skills that
people need. I mean, you know, we just had the
off year elections. There's virtually no discussion of this in
any of the major races that are taking place. So
(31:59):
the first thing that had to happen is we need
to start talking about this. We need to understand things
are changing fast that we need to help people deal
with the changes that are taking place, and that will
involve public policy changes. Like one hundred years ago, when
the United States moved from an agrarian to an industrial economy,
we actually made a number of policy changes designed to
(32:22):
help people with that transition. Today, we're moving from an
industrial to a digital economy that is equally fundamental to
what we experienced with industrialization. We need a bunch of
new policies to address different aspects of it, like who
pays for adult education, how do we get people the
(32:43):
skills that they're going to need for these new jobs.
There's like a variety of different questions that we need
to be exploring. The thing I worry the most about
is most of the time we're not even talking about it,
and so we can't even get to a solution if
it's not on the agenda for conversation.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Ah okay, that's the first thing. Give me one more thing.
What's that After we talk about it.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
After we talk about it, then we actually have to
talk about real solutions. Your idea of a voucher for
night classes, like, that's a great idea, Thank you, No,
it is a really good idea, and it's very practical.
It's an idea people can understand. Encouraging companies as they're
laying off people to provide professional development for those people
(33:29):
so that they can take classes, get certified in a
new field, like, do whatever they need to do so
they don't become obsolete job wise. So that would be
an important development kind of figuring out how you provide
healthcare and retirement benefits to people who are undergoing economic transitions,
(33:51):
because one of the things that's unusual about the United
States is most of our benefits come through the job.
Like European countries have national health insurance, so if you
move from one company to another company, you're not losing
your health insurance. In the United States, if you move
from one company to another, you may lose health insurance.
(34:14):
You may end up with a different healthcare provider. Like
there are all sorts of changes that flow from that
job change. So it's not just a question of addressing
employment related things. It's understanding that our health benefits and
retirement benefits are linked to jobs, and so anything that
destabilizes the job market also destabilizes healthcare.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I love that point.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
I love it so true.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yes, I'd heard some accounts of folks saying that their
premiums are going to be increasing by hundreds of dollars,
almost thousands of dollars, and I just couldn't believe it.
That is such a big change, and folks don't have that,
we like people don't have that just lying around, And
so I don't know what the future is going to
(35:02):
look like when it comes to healthcare. I'm nervous for
a lot of folks, and it feels like there's a
lot of things swirling around like right now that are
creating like a perfect storm for a lot of turmoil.
Is there a glimmer of hope that people can cling to.
We just had the like I said, we had the midterms,
(35:23):
and we see that there are some shifts happening. But
is there something that we don't see that you feel like,
is Okay, we have this thing, this one thing that's
going right, and this is what can help us begin
to start talking about things and then putting things into practice.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Like you said, well, the candidates who actually talked about
these affordability issues, talked about the changing nature of the
workforce and then are trying to figure out how to
maintain healthcare benefits for people undergoing job transitions actually did
very well, and so I personally found that very encouraging.
(36:01):
In the sense that many of the policy issues that
I worry about it is now starting to percolate with people.
The whole healthcare issue, in the fact that premiums are
going to go up very dramatically. People now are understanding
this is not a blue state, red state issue. There
are a lot of rural, conservative areas where people's healthcare
(36:23):
costs are rising dramatically. It's not just liberal states, it's
conservative states that are going to experience the same thing.
The Medicaid cutbacks that were part of the last congressional
budget bill. That's going to have a lot of impact
on rural, southern and conservative estates. So I think there's
a basis for a coalition to emerge from people whose
(36:45):
constituents are going to be affected by this. I think
they're starting to figure that out. They're understanding they need
to address these issues. The healthcare issue was actually a
big issue in this week's elections. I'm sure it's going
to be a big issue in next year's midterm elections.
So to me, this is a positive sign. People now
are paying attention to this. They understand it's a problem,
(37:07):
and people are trying to figure out how can we
address it.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Sometimes when things look really gloomy. Yeah, I like to say, oh,
it looked gloomy in nineteen thirty two, but look how
we turned it around.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
So now, certainly AI wasn't part of the equation. But
have we seen something that's like this storm that TT
just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
In my lifetime, I would say roughly about once every decade,
there's been some serious economic problem. Wow, either unemployment, high inflation,
job dislocations, like things that are really making difficult for people.
And in some of those time periods, things got so
bad that it got the attention of politicians and they
(37:48):
actually took effective action to deal with these issues. So
my hope is that, you know, we're kind of in
a situation now where technology is making a lot of
these economic issues worse. In the short run, technology is
increasing inequality, but people are now starting to understand that,
they're starting to pinpoint that as a problem, they're starting
(38:08):
to think about the policy measures that we need to
adopt in order to deal with that. So it actually
makes me optimisty that even though there's going to be
short term pain, they're definitely going to people who lose
jobs are not able to find them. People who are
losing healthcare benefits, and I don't want to minimize the
reality of that, but I think these issues are now
(38:32):
on the agenda. Political leaders are starting to talk about them,
so there actually is hope in the not too distant future.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I like that need too, Doctor West. You were a perfection.
You've answered so many questions. I know people are going
to be listening to this episode and really learning a lot,
and so we're hoping to contribute to the information that's
out there and make it information that people can understand
and move in their lives accordingly based off of what
they've learned from you. So thank you so much for
(39:00):
for all of your words and insights.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yes, thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Good a pleasure talking with you.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Tt is on X and Instagram, at d R Underscore
t Sho.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
And you can find Zakiya at z said so.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. Our supervising
producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is Issara Acevez.
Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by Jangs Farber,
Lamanada Media's Vice president of Partnerships and production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead
(39:46):
is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs
is executive produced by us T T Show Dia and
Zakiah walk Here
Speaker 3 (40:05):
MHM
It feels like we all have whiplash from the policy
changes that are happening in the United States of America right.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Now, right right. The rent is high, groceries are high.
You want to play sixty five dollars to make a
turkey and cheese sandwich.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Wow, that's no condiments. People are being laid off. Jobs
are hard to come by. We even had a listener
right in and ask us. They say, hey, and Dope
Labs cover the current state of the economy and the
possibility for the future. Hey, you know what that means.
Your wish is our command. Friend. I'm TT and I'm Zakiyah,
and this is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a
(00:43):
weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and
a healthy dose of friendship.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
This week, we're breaking down the vital signs of the
US economy, zooming in on the stem and life sciences world,
asking an economists how we got here and what comes next.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know that the economy is a big word, okay,
and it feels unpredictable and like something that my mind
can't fully wrap itself around, Like the economy is how
much groceries, cout how much fundings universities get, and there
are so many different lists that you have to consider
when you're talking about the economy. Yes, no, yes, and
(01:30):
even within that, like how does the labor market fit
into that? Because the jobs numbers are swinging And I
don't know about you, but when I submit a report,
it's supposed to be done no revisions, but they're coming
back with revisions months later, and that.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Feels confusing to me.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Right, they're saying, oh, psych, there's actually a million less
jobs than we say.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And we only said nine hundred thousand.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
There's negative jobs. There's negative jobs, and it feels like
with jobs that stem jobs, they're being really hard too.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, I just know that I'm tired. And it feels
like everyone is anxious, Like the conversation about the economy
is showing up. You're like, ah, yes, I like a
macha and they're like, yeah, but the economy, like it's
showing up everywhere.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Macha in this economy. Yeah yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I'm making my macha home. That's me talking to myself
in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
So what do we want to know?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, I want to know how economists are actually measuring
this stuff like the economy, and is the labor market
included in that? Is a labor market measured separately? Like
what's happening?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And why are the job numbers swinging so wildly?
Speaker 1 (02:36):
You know what I mean? Like a million jobs? Yeah,
that's a lot of job That doesn't feel like a
rounding error. No, that feels like somebody was asleep at
the keyboard, just held down to zero exact. And what's
been the ripple effects of the cuts to federal research
funding that we saw at the top of the year.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Is that what.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
We're seeing now with the stem job landscape?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Right? And what about AI You know that's a dirty
word for some folks, But how is that changing the
job landscape? I thought it was going to be like
a boom, so I'm interested in that. And then where
does immigration fit into all of this because there's been
a lot of rhetoric online m hm hm. And how
can we I guess, students, workers, everybody that is involved
(03:26):
in the economy adapt.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, how do we get some stability? I want them
to stop shaking the table.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
To answer these questions, We're talking to Daryl West from
the Brookings Institution, which is a Washington, DC based think tank.
They do research on a wide variety of public policy topics,
and prior to that, Daryl was a professor of political
science and public policy at Brown University.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So, Daryl, before we jump into science funding, I think
it's important for us to make sure that we're all
on the same page because people are throwing terms around
like the economy and the labor market, and these mean
different things to people depending on who you ask. And
so when an economist says the economy, what exactly is
(04:15):
included in that picture? Like what are those markers?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Those are all the economic activities that take place in
our country. So that includes unemployment, is certainly one of
the big indicators, inflation rate, gross domestic product output, all
the subsectors that make up the economy healthcare, education, transportation, technology,
and the like. So the term economy really encapsulates all
(04:39):
of the activities paid or some unpaid, that take place.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's great, and I mean that makes economy sound just
as big as we feel like it is because it's
always a hot button topic. It's what is on the
tip of everyone's tongue these days. And we've seen some
really big swings in the jobs numbers with the most
recent furlough to cuts for government jobs and cuts and
(05:05):
research and just the job market just really being a
tough place right now. And sometimes it feels like the
economy is cooling and other times it feels like there's
record job growth. Can you help us understand what drives
those shifts and what the job numbers really tells us
about the health of our economy.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
The economy does seem to be slowing down overall. When
you look at unemployment, it is rising. Certainly, the tariff
policies of President Trump has created a lot of uncertainty
in the business community. When business leaders are cautious, they
tend to pull back on hiring. So the unemployment rate
is probably the basic indicator that most people follow, but
(05:45):
it's an aggregate number, so there's a lot of noise
and activity that takes place below that number. Different types
of people in the population have different unemployment levels. People
look at the overall participation in the job market. Technically,
the unemployment rate just measures of the percentage of those
(06:06):
people who are looking for jobs. How many people are unemployed,
So the employment aspect can mask different things that are
going on, like if the economy is really bad. People
get discouraged from looking, and so they quit looking. Technically,
they no longer are part of the unemployment rate at
that point, because the unemployment rate just focuses on those
(06:27):
who are looking who are not able to find a job.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Wait a minute, Wow, how do they That is mind
blowing for me? Is it after thirty days you drop off?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Like?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
What's the cutoff?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well, this is the reason why the unemployment rate can
mask a lot of other things that are going on.
Like right now, the official unemployment rate in the United
States is about four and a half percent, which doesn't
sound very high by historic standards. It's actually at the
lower end in terms of the employment figures. But there
are people who are called discouraged workers, people who want
(07:00):
to work, maybe have tried for a little while, have
not been able to find a job. They get discouraged
and they quit looking. Therefore they drop out of the
unemployment rate. They are still there, they still do not
have a job. So sometimes the economy is worse than
the economic numbers would actually suggest, and I think that
is likely to be the case right now. There are
(07:21):
probably people who would like to have a job. They
perhaps have gotten discouraged because they've been looking and not
able to find anything. A lot of the big companies
have announced layoffs in a recent months, so I think
it's one of the reasons why you can have a
relatively low unemployment rate, but yet the economy still is
not doing very well and people feel poorly about the
(07:44):
national economy.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
But I'm curious how that's tracked. How do they track
when somebody has disengaged from looking for a job.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
There are both public surveys and surveys of businesses that
track a variety of economic indicators. With businesses, they're asking
people about their hiring rates each month. There are surveys
that go out to a large number of businesses that
you know, ask a series of questions. Now, of course,
the problem right now is with the government shutdown, those
(08:14):
surveys actually are not taking place, and so many of
the economic indicators that we typically follow are at least
a month out of date because the people who would
collect that information have been furloughed. They're not working, they're
not collecting the survey information. So we're actually flying a
bit blind as a result of the government shutdown, And
(08:37):
obviously the longer that shutdown continues, the more of a
problem that creates because you know, business leaders have to
make decisions. They want the best and most up to
date information. We're not getting that right now, So the
government shutdown creates a lot of problems in terms of
collecting economic data.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
That makes a lot of sense. Now, I want to
go back a little bit too, before the government shut down,
when we saw the reporting of numbers of this many
jobs being available, then the switch to like, no, it
wasn't there aren't these many jobs available. And you've helped
us understand economy and all these different factors for the economy.
But when we talk about like labor market, I've been
(09:16):
hearing reports that say, like the labor market is tight
or is soft, and I'm like, what does that mean?
In plane talk? And then what's going into determining that.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
One of the things that creates the greatest difficulty for
people who even follow these statistics is the Bureau of
Labor Statistics is the part of the government that collects
all this information, and so on a monthly basis, they
do these surveys and then once a month they put
out the unemployment rate. But then a lot of times,
(09:46):
since the data are based on surveys of businesses, the
preliminary number can be revised in the following month because
more businesses have responded with any survey that you're sending,
Like there are a bunch of people who respond right away,
and then there are other people who respond two weeks later,
three weeks later, or four weeks later. So the beer
(10:08):
of labor statistics will revise the numbers, and in recent
months sometimes the revisions have actually been really big in
either direction. Either they can make the economy look better
or worse based on that revision. This is upsetting to
people like Trump used that as an argument that the
numbers are unreliable, that the people who work there are biased,
(10:31):
they're trying to make him look bad by reporting bad
numbers for the economy. That actually is not the case.
You know, these are professional economists who are compiling the data.
But when you have big revisions each month, it does
make people wonder, like, why are there so many revisions,
Why aren't the numbers more consistent and more reliable?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And I feel like those numbers will also contribute to
what you were saying when someone gets fatigued with applying
for jobs, because if you realize there's actually a million
less jobs, available. I would imagine that that might end
up fluctuating that number as well. Like Takia was saying
at the very beginning, I look a lot at the
(11:12):
research funding and things like that, and means a key
have a lot of conversations about this because you know,
we both have doctorates, we both benefited from research funding.
And when the federal government cut back on research funding,
can you talk about the ripple effects that that has
on the broader economy, Because some people when they hear
these things, they're like, Okay, who cares, so you won't
(11:34):
be able to test that frog or whatever, But we
know it's bigger than that.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Now, you're exactly right, that's a very good question. I mean,
when the government over the last year has cut back
on research funding, especially money that was going to universities,
it's actually been devastating. Like there are a lot of
young people and a lot of professors who depend on
that money for their research. As soon as the money
either slowed or got eliminated, me a lot of universities
(12:01):
had to lay off people. You know, this would be
devastating for a young person starting out in the field
of science, engineering, math, or otherwise. Like they were counting
on a certain level of support for their graduate studies
and the money basically got yanked. So that would be
devastating for those individuals. But you're also right, there's a
broader issue, like beyond those individuals, you know, the impact
(12:23):
on the academics who were assuming that funding was going
to come through. The economic impact for entire communities can
actually be quite substantial. In many cities across the United States,
two of the big drivers are what we call eds
and mets, educational institutions and all the medical and health
related institutions. The whole hospital establishment, the healthcare community, the
(12:48):
doctors like that generates a lot of jobs. And what
the administration has done has disrupted both the educational communities
and the healthcare establishment, and so devastating for many cities.
They have counted on the economic growth and the jobs
generated by these types of institutions, and in the last
(13:10):
six months they can no longer count on that money.
Even when there are being court rulings demanding that the
federal government resume the funding, it's not clear that the
administration has followed up to the degree that judges have required.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Daryl, I want to share with you a letter that
we received from a Dope Labs listener, and they wrote
this to us in August and as part of why
we're talking to you, and I'd love to just hear
your reaction or what you think based on what they said.
They said, Hi, Dope Labs. I think a podcast episode
focusing on today's science job market would be a great idea.
I've spent over seven years working in the farharmaceutical industry,
(14:01):
but after being laid off from a major biotech company,
I've found it incredibly difficult to secure a new role.
I've seen many others share similar struggles in online communities
like Reddit, and it's discouraging to realize how widespread this
has become. So many of us have dedicated our careers
and lives to advancing science, yet with the way things
(14:21):
are now, it can feel like this work is no
longer appreciated or valued. Covering this topic could remind people
why it is worth staying the course in their studies
or in careers in science and give them hope to
keep moving forward. And I won't share their name, but
I'm curious your response to this, and I don't know
if you can give that type of recommendation, but if
you have any kind of forecasting. Should people be following
(14:44):
these careers, Should they pursue this with the way things
look now?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Well, first of all, I feel for that person. That
person is not unique. I know there are many examples
of other people who have had exactly the same experience
over the last year. Some do to cut back and
government funding, some do to as in this case, companies
just laying off individuals. You know, we've all seen the
(15:07):
stories about AI starting to affect a number of different industries.
AI is doing more and more sophisticated tasks, including in
the research area. AI can do things that gradu students
and faculty used to do on their own. So the
combination of all these things has been very destabilizing, and
I do worry what it's going to mean for the
(15:29):
future in the United States, because you know, what actually
has made America great has been the innovation economy, our
scientific establishment. Like this is the reason so many foreign
students want to come to the United States because they
know America has the best universities in the world, and
a lot of these people come here they'd like to stay.
(15:50):
Some of them end up starting their own companies. So
they're a vital part of what is propelled American prosperity
the creation of jobs and the fact that the United
States has been very innovative in a lot of different areas.
So to the extent that the we're cutting back in
that area, either through research funding or if big pharmaceutical
(16:13):
companies are laying off people, or if immigration policies are
making it very difficult for foreign students who get educated
here and would like to stay but they're no longer
able to do that, all of that is going to
have a very detrimental effect on our future economy. Like
people seem to think we can do all these things
(16:34):
and everything else is going to stay the same, and
that is just simply not the case. Without all of
the ingredients that drive the innovation economy, we're not going
to have the same level of economic prosperity in the
future that we have had over the last couple of decades.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes, and I know that you often talk about the
future of work and so, like Zekia was saying, folks
that are post docs in the life science, is post
docs technicians even undergrads thinking about research careers. I feel
like we're going to see a decrease in the amount
of folks interested in it, and I think that that
is overall just a bad situation for the country. I
(17:13):
do want to touch on something that you brought up
just now. I would love to hear more about how
AI is affecting the job market.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
This has been the big topic in recent months. I mean,
there have been lots of headlines where companies have announced
layoffs and the companies themselves are saying one of the
reasons they're getting rid of humans is AI is doing
the work that these humans used to do. For example,
software coding development, all these things have been in very
(17:43):
hot demand for a number of years. It turns out
AI can actually do that stuff pretty well, and so
some of these companies have said, you know, these are
tech companies, forty percent of their layoffs have been due
to AI being able to do the jobs that these
humans used to do. So I think it is creating
a problem in the entire STEM field, and it's not
(18:05):
just in the computer area. Like a lot of what
happens in the knowledge sector is basic research, and basic
research consists of a variety of different things. It's like
doing a literature review to find out what's going on
in the field, collecting data, analyzing, data, interpreting the data,
(18:26):
writing reports, having summaries of what comes out of various studies.
It turns out AI can actually do many of those things,
and so the implications of the rise of AI for
the entire knowledge sector, I think are actually quite serious,
and so we need to think about how we build
the next generation of scientific talent in a world that
(18:49):
increasingly is being driven by AI. You don't want robots
and AI to be doing all the jobs and humans
having no role in it. Like, that's not a good
rest of for creative solutions coming out of the future.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
But then I'm curious, what is it then? Right then,
what does it look like to be a scientist prepared
for work in the future. What does it look like
to adapt and be ready to respond to these changes?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Well, there certainly are jobs that are going to be lost,
and we're already seeing that. But the good news is
there actually are new kinds of jobs that are being created,
So this is kind of the optimistic side of all this.
In the data area, people who have really good data
analysis skills are still in hot demand, particularly those who
(19:37):
are skilled at working with very large data sets, data
sets that may number in the hundreds of thousands or
even millions of records associated with them, So that's an
important skill, and the digital economy is just creating so
much data. Anybody who has data skills like cleaning data sets,
analyzing information, interpreting information, I think still be an important thing.
(20:02):
There are other types of new jobs where companies and
organizations are trying to integrate AI into their operations and
improve their administrative processing, their financial management. Like there's a
wide variety of things, but it actually is not such
a simple matter just to add AI to your organization
(20:24):
and expect people to be able to figure it out.
So they're going to mean new jobs that I would
describe as something like management, innovation, organizational dynamics, kind of
figuring out how AI works in the ways that organizations
particularly need, Like to really automate functions, you have to
break down every administrative task into its component parts, and
(20:49):
even the simple thing like paying a bill, there may
be like five six or seven steps involved with that,
and so the process of automation means taking a look
at each of those those five six or seven steps,
figuring out how to automate that, how to link that
sequence of activities, and then how to integrate all that
so you actually get the right answer. At the end
(21:10):
of that, there are going to be jobs for people
who actually know how to do that. So that will
involve scientists who understand AI, people who understand organizations, and
then people who are used to dealing with human beings
that can actually sit down with you or I and
explain you know, this is how we're integrating AI into
our operations. So there are going to be a bunch
(21:31):
of new types of jobs that are being created. If
you look at the types of job ads that organizations
are starting to put out now, there are job listings
that have the strangest titles like jobs I've never heard of.
But yet these organizations are understanding that as technology gets
integrated into their operations, they need new types of people
(21:54):
who have different types of skills. So there will be
lots of new opportunities. But the key thing is making
sure people have the training that will qualify them for
those new types of jobs.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And that means changing the perspective that a lot of
folks in higher education have on AI, because I think
in the beginning it was like, Oh, all these students,
they're just cheaters, they're using AI for everything. But I
think we're past that now, and now we have to
start teaching them how to use it to their benefit.
Just like when Google hit the scene and everybody felt
(22:26):
like there was just all this information at your fingertips,
no one had to think about anything. But now we've
learned how to use it in better ways, even though
some people's Google searches are very different from the rest
of the population. We've talked about a lot of the
tough things going on with the economy, but I am
interested from your perspective at Brookings, how you would describe
(22:46):
the overall state of the US economy right now, but
then also what you would do or how you would
fix our economy, Like, because you know, people are we
just had an election, the exit pole, they're saying that
the economy was the most important thing for folks. What
are the steps that were needed in order to course correct.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I mean, the biggest word I hear when I talk
to people about the economy, including people in the business community,
is uncertainty. Like I think the thing that has really
screwed up our economy this year is there's so much
policy generated uncertainty. So you have the whole tariff situation,
like most businesses in America involve some importing of foreign goods.
(23:34):
They may assemble an item in the United States. They
may rely on a service here, but somewhere along the way,
there's something happening abroad that needs to come here to
help them do what they need to do. With Trump's
tariffs problems, it seems like every other week he changes
the tariff rate on China or India or Brazil or Argentina,
(23:56):
and so these countries like their heads are spinning, and
then the business people who are having to make decisions
when they don't know what their supply chain looks like
is just completely problematic. The same thing is true in
terms of immigration, Like the United States economy depends on immigrants.
Immigrants are doing a large percentage of the job in agriculture,
(24:19):
the hotel industry, restaurants, construction. I mean, you can kind
of go down a very long list of sectors. Immigrants
are doing a lot of work in those areas. We've
all seen the raids that are taking place in a
number of major cities across the country that's completely disrupted
the immigrant portion of the market. That creates enormous problems
(24:41):
for the business communities. So if you ask me, how
do we make the American economy better? It's like our
policy has to become more consistent. Our leaders have to
adopt policies that actually make sense given the way our
economy operates. Like, you know, you can kind of have
in your head this mythical notion that only native born
(25:03):
Americans are going to get the jobs in America, and
that's a complete fantasy. Like, our economy doesn't operate that way.
Businesses don't operate that way. So the administration is trying
to force a model of the economy on the country
that is just completely unrealistic. So fixing the economy involves
(25:24):
kind of removing all of the things that are actually
disrupting the market, creating uncertainty, paralyzing business leaders, leading them
not to invest, and they end up not hiring people
because they don't know what the environment is going to be.
That's completely problematic. We need to fix that.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
I think that is so so true, Darryl. You just
really snapped. It helped us understand all of these things
that are happening. And it feels like you're saying, hey,
look at the data, look at how this system works.
Before we start tinkering and I would love for you
to kind of talk about, especially because we started out
in the STEM area, if you were able to talk
to us about like how immigrant populations contribute to our
(26:01):
STEM economy and workforce so people have an understand of that,
and then broader how we can see immigrant labor in
our market.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Immigrants have been a vital part of the whole technology
sector for many years. Like I'm sure you recall from
your own experiences in graduate school, like when you go
into the graduate programs of any leading university in any
of the STEM fields science, technology, engineering, or math, a
(26:30):
majority of the students and sometimes it's two thirds or
three quarters actually coming from abroad. Immigrants have been a
very important part of the STEM field because the data
suggests data born Americans have not gone into these fields,
or they've gone in, or they've gotten discouraged and they've
dropped out. I mean, there are lots of different things
that are going on there, and so it's hard to
(26:53):
know how our technology innovation is going to continue in
the future without some involvement from immigrants. They have a
lot of technical expertise. There's tremendous talent all around the world,
and companies have relied on that for several decades right now,
(27:15):
so clearly we need immigration reform. We need kind of
a more standardized way for people who want to come
to America to actually do that. Right now, it's kind
of a free for all because the last major immigration
reform was in the nineteen eighties, So I mean we're
talking about like almost forty years ago, and the world
(27:36):
has just changed so much in that time. Our policies
have not kept up with the changes that are taking place.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Is that the trend like before nineteen eighty If.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
You look historically, immigration reform generally takes place once every
twenty years, thirty years, or forty years. I mean, it's
a difficult subject, Like there are lots of different things
that are going on. People have complicated feelings about immigrants
and what it means to be an American, so it's
hard for our political system to deal with that, and
(28:06):
typically only once a generation or once every other generation
there's an opportunity that comes along, people are able to
pass some reform, but most of the time we're in
the same situation we are now, which is the system
is completely screwed up. Everybody recognizes it's screwed up. But
yet we can't muster the political will to actually fix it.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So for the folks that are listening that are saying, yes,
doctor Wes, you are so wise, this is exactly what
is going wrong. These are the things that we need
to know. But I am just one person, and I
am not an economist. What advice would you give to
folks about impacts that they can have with their local
(29:00):
government that can help them on a smaller scale, but
then has ripple effects that could reach across the country.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Well, the thing that I tell young people when I'm
talking to them is, given all the changes that are
taking place in the economy, the workforce, technology, and everything else,
they're going to need to be devoted to what we
call lifelong learning. Like when I was growing up, the
model was you kind of invest in education up through
(29:29):
about age twenty five, and then after that you don't
really have to worry too much. Like you may learn
some things on the job, but both of you are
much younger. You're going to face a world where you're
going to have to upgrade your job skills at ages thirty, forty, fifty,
and sixty literally throughout your adult lifetimes. Everybody else is
going to have to do the same thing because the
(29:49):
job market is changing. Old jobs are disappearing, new jobs
are being created. People are going to have to adapt
to an era of change. You may be trained in
one field, you may end up having to develop skills
that put you in a different area. And so people
regularly are going to have to take adult education classes
(30:10):
avail themselves of professional development opportunities. Like everybody is just
going to have to learn new skills throughout the rest
of their life. Now, at one level, that's actually not bad.
As an educator, I like the fact people have to
constantly educate themselves, But there is a societal question of
who pays for this, Like you know, for elementary school,
(30:31):
for high school, and for college. We as a society
have always said this is important, we will help finance education.
We've never actually made that commitment for adult education or
professional development. So right now, when people have to upgrade
their job skills, generally they have to pay for it themselves.
We as a society need to understand that's actually an
(30:53):
important part of our economy now. We need to provide
that kind of assistance. The worst case scenario is people
just being up behind, not having the skills not qualifying
for any of the new jobs that are being created,
and we end up with a permitted underclass. Ah.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So basically we need night school vouchers. Say it's time
for everybody to go back to school. You get a
voucher every five to ten years, take some new classes.
I think that is really a great response to our
changing market. But it seems like everything on our car
of the economy and the United States, all the lights
are on. Everything needs to be checked. We need to
(31:30):
all change, we need break fluid flush. If you were
the orchestrator of this, what goes first? What has the
biggest ripple effect in your mind?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I mean, the first thing that needs to happen is
we need to be talking about these issues of workforce changes,
how technology is changing the nature of the skills that
people need. I mean, you know, we just had the
off year elections. There's virtually no discussion of this in
any of the major races that are taking place. So
(31:59):
the first thing that had to happen is we need
to start talking about this. We need to understand things
are changing fast that we need to help people deal
with the changes that are taking place, and that will
involve public policy changes. Like one hundred years ago, when
the United States moved from an agrarian to an industrial economy,
we actually made a number of policy changes designed to
(32:22):
help people with that transition. Today, we're moving from an
industrial to a digital economy that is equally fundamental to
what we experienced with industrialization. We need a bunch of
new policies to address different aspects of it, like who
pays for adult education, how do we get people the
(32:43):
skills that they're going to need for these new jobs.
There's like a variety of different questions that we need
to be exploring. The thing I worry the most about
is most of the time we're not even talking about it,
and so we can't even get to a solution if
it's not on the agenda for conversation.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Ah okay, that's the first thing. Give me one more thing.
What's that After we talk about it.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
After we talk about it, then we actually have to
talk about real solutions. Your idea of a voucher for
night classes, like, that's a great idea, Thank you, No,
it is a really good idea, and it's very practical.
It's an idea people can understand. Encouraging companies as they're
laying off people to provide professional development for those people
(33:29):
so that they can take classes, get certified in a
new field, like, do whatever they need to do so
they don't become obsolete job wise. So that would be
an important development kind of figuring out how you provide
healthcare and retirement benefits to people who are undergoing economic transitions,
(33:51):
because one of the things that's unusual about the United
States is most of our benefits come through the job.
Like European countries have national health insurance, so if you
move from one company to another company, you're not losing
your health insurance. In the United States, if you move
from one company to another, you may lose health insurance.
(34:14):
You may end up with a different healthcare provider. Like
there are all sorts of changes that flow from that
job change. So it's not just a question of addressing
employment related things. It's understanding that our health benefits and
retirement benefits are linked to jobs, and so anything that
destabilizes the job market also destabilizes healthcare.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I love that point.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
I love it so true.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yes, I'd heard some accounts of folks saying that their
premiums are going to be increasing by hundreds of dollars,
almost thousands of dollars, and I just couldn't believe it.
That is such a big change, and folks don't have that,
we like people don't have that just lying around, And
so I don't know what the future is going to
(35:02):
look like when it comes to healthcare. I'm nervous for
a lot of folks, and it feels like there's a
lot of things swirling around like right now that are
creating like a perfect storm for a lot of turmoil.
Is there a glimmer of hope that people can cling to.
We just had the like I said, we had the midterms,
(35:23):
and we see that there are some shifts happening. But
is there something that we don't see that you feel like,
is Okay, we have this thing, this one thing that's
going right, and this is what can help us begin
to start talking about things and then putting things into practice.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Like you said, well, the candidates who actually talked about
these affordability issues, talked about the changing nature of the
workforce and then are trying to figure out how to
maintain healthcare benefits for people undergoing job transitions actually did
very well, and so I personally found that very encouraging.
(36:01):
In the sense that many of the policy issues that
I worry about it is now starting to percolate with people.
The whole healthcare issue, in the fact that premiums are
going to go up very dramatically. People now are understanding
this is not a blue state, red state issue. There
are a lot of rural, conservative areas where people's healthcare
(36:23):
costs are rising dramatically. It's not just liberal states, it's
conservative states that are going to experience the same thing.
The Medicaid cutbacks that were part of the last congressional
budget bill. That's going to have a lot of impact
on rural, southern and conservative estates. So I think there's
a basis for a coalition to emerge from people whose
(36:45):
constituents are going to be affected by this. I think
they're starting to figure that out. They're understanding they need
to address these issues. The healthcare issue was actually a
big issue in this week's elections. I'm sure it's going
to be a big issue in next year's midterm elections.
So to me, this is a positive sign. People now
are paying attention to this. They understand it's a problem,
(37:07):
and people are trying to figure out how can we
address it.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Sometimes when things look really gloomy. Yeah, I like to say, oh,
it looked gloomy in nineteen thirty two, but look how
we turned it around.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
So now, certainly AI wasn't part of the equation. But
have we seen something that's like this storm that TT
just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
In my lifetime, I would say roughly about once every decade,
there's been some serious economic problem. Wow, either unemployment, high inflation,
job dislocations, like things that are really making difficult for people.
And in some of those time periods, things got so
bad that it got the attention of politicians and they
(37:48):
actually took effective action to deal with these issues. So
my hope is that, you know, we're kind of in
a situation now where technology is making a lot of
these economic issues worse. In the short run, technology is
increasing inequality, but people are now starting to understand that,
they're starting to pinpoint that as a problem, they're starting
(38:08):
to think about the policy measures that we need to
adopt in order to deal with that. So it actually
makes me optimisty that even though there's going to be
short term pain, they're definitely going to people who lose
jobs are not able to find them. People who are
losing healthcare benefits, and I don't want to minimize the
reality of that, but I think these issues are now
(38:32):
on the agenda. Political leaders are starting to talk about them,
so there actually is hope in the not too distant future.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I like that need too, Doctor West. You were a perfection.
You've answered so many questions. I know people are going
to be listening to this episode and really learning a lot,
and so we're hoping to contribute to the information that's
out there and make it information that people can understand
and move in their lives accordingly based off of what
they've learned from you. So thank you so much for
(39:00):
for all of your words and insights.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yes, thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Good a pleasure talking with you.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Tt is on X and Instagram, at d R Underscore
t Sho.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
And you can find Zakiya at z said so.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. Our supervising
producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is Issara Acevez.
Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by Jangs Farber,
Lamanada Media's Vice president of Partnerships and production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead
(39:46):
is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs
is executive produced by us T T Show Dia and
Zakiah walk Here
Speaker 3 (40:05):
MHM
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