Take 2! with Paul Johansson • EP619

Paul Johansson directed this episode, so it’s fitting that he returns to dissect it. The Queens talk about his process and how it affected the show. They share what made this episode special in their eyes and Paul explains what made him run into the bathroom and cry! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, you don't know me all about that
high school drama, Girl drama, girl, all about them high
school queens.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
We'll take you for a ride.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
And our comic girl cheering for the righteen drama Queens
jis go up girl fashion, which you'll tough girl. You
could sit with us, Girl drama, Queen drama, queense drama,
Queens drama, drama, Queens drama queens. Guys. Hello, everyone, you're
all joining us in the middle of our conversation because
every time we get together we can't stop gabbing. But

(00:31):
we're talking about season six, episode nineteen, Letting Go air
date March thirtieth, two thousand and nine. Paul, would you
be so kind as to read in the chat there
is a synopsis of this episode. Perhaps, oh my god,
check yes with your episode, guys. Paul is here because
he directed this episode baifully uh, and we're here to

(00:52):
talk with him about it, in with you and all
the things.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, that is so sweeter. I do have the synopsis
right in front of me, and the director's name is
Bill correctly, which is fantastic. Do a gig and they
give me an E or an extra S or something more.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
You've earned all those letters, Babe, take them.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
The synopsis, Julian makes Brooke a startling offer. We know
who Julian is. What a wonderful later. By the way,
I did watch that on the you know they do
on YouTube a kind of like you know, the highlights
of the season. You know, when you wan like a
three minute things of that episode, and you know, he's

(01:32):
so good looking. It's like, I really hate him. Anybody
who comes on the show that's that good looking.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
I just was just good, isn't he? Yes? I mean, yes,
of course, of course.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
And it was a really fun episode. But Lucas brings Nathan,
Scott and Jamie to an important place from his past,
and we also see him shooting baskets and that great
Mustang that they had in the.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Right.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
I mean, I'm sure Jeffrey loves fastbacks. That's one of
my favorite cars.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Whole garage, Paul. It's just he does. And he always
gets stick shift cars that I can't drive because I'm
a nerd girl, and I'm like, I want to learn.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Fine, that's alert. That's a good tactic for the future
for me.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
That's smart.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Peyton prepares for the future while Pyton prepares Sam and
Jack take a stand against the principal who fired Hayley.
Awkward storyline.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
It was so fun.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Isn't that an awkward storyline?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:33):
So imposed. I mean I understand what they're trying to
go for, but it was very confusing from a directing
point of view to help tell that story because it
felt shoved in and it felt like this is somebody
else's version of what school's like. It's not what kids experience.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Right, Yeah, it was. There was a lot that was
forced about that.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Okay, we'll get into that, and I'm not trying to
cut down. I mean, look at you did ten years
of a series. It's not everything's going to be genius, right.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
We like to giggle about the left turns that tree
Hill takes from Tarya.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
What a polite way of By the way, I have
so many like things. I mean, listen, I almost like
I didn't know how to re because I thought when
I read the episode where the Dog Ate My Heart,
which is the episode before this, right.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
We just missed it. We just missed it happen.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Okay, Well I thought it was a joke and I
called Joe I think Joe Devola and laughed and said,
you guys are hilarious. The real script I got to
study for tomorrow and he was like, yeah, no, we did,
And I was like, oh, I mean I really I
like to prepare. He's like we did because he was
directed that episode, right.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, yeah he did. That's right.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
We could talk about that one too, because I missed
last week. So any antel you want to give us
like that mess?

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Please?

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Then let's quickly before I'll finished a centinemiatica question and
one makes more takes Mormon on a road trip to
get his mind up. Milling happy to see those two
have a story that builds together from like the main six,
because I think they're great characters and they deserve that
time on the screen. I thought I was happy about
that one. I love dirinking those two together. They're good chemistry.

(04:10):
But did you I hear often and I read often,
and I shouldn't do this because I'm sensitive When I
read online. Sometimes I just want to go to the
bathroom and shut the door and cry because people are very.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Mean, right, who mean to us? Never?

Speaker 3 (04:26):
I think a lot of times people don't consider that
we actually read stuff they write about it, and we
do because like, what did you think and I go, well,
I think you could have eaten a few more salads.
So you know, I'm like, you're right, but don't say it.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Don't internet etiquette. Don't be a dick.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
Oh yeah, that's I didn't read that when I got
on the internet. Doesn't pop up.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
No, that pop up should be there. But this is
an infamous episode for you.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
It is because a lot of people ask me if
I feel that the show jumped the shark with the
heart because it's cartoonish in a way. It's not a
realistic way that the heart's going to come in in
a in a in.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
A you know, in a lunchbox so smart, you know,
eat candy first or what not, and then the dog's
just happening to be in an er room and run
over and have a nice slate heart snack.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
It felt like a lot of things had to be
wrong for that world to work. Yeah, yeah, but it
was cute and it's talkable and it's you know.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
It's talkable. You know, that's a great way to put it.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Oh yeah, everybody was talking about it. That was a
very water cooler moment.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
But wasn't That was right about the time we had
gone through a year or two of what was the
show that made fun of us all the time? Talks
to Soup. Oh yeah, Talk made fun of us all
the time, and at first we weren't in on the joke.
They were just strictly making fun of us. And this
felt one hundred percent like bait. This was this was

(06:02):
us saying like, oh.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Hold on it the whole segment on it.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Did you see that John Oliver anyway? You mean yeah, wait,
John Oliver did? I thought it was the other guy,
Joel mchill.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
No, it's it's it's you know, John Oliver from the.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Right. Yeah, John Oliver started on John Stewart show.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Oh oh, that's so fun.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
I feel like you need to have a secondary reel
that is just people reacting to the things that you've done,
as Dan Scott, because to have that much of an
impact on pulp culture, no, like all the dance consto
realized the commentary attention. Yeah, yeah, listen, you're dastardly made
the headlines.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
That's why I brought my own audience to the to
the podsam.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, you got Jim Jones looking over your shoulders there.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
God.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
So okay, So how do you go from having to
commit to something so bonkers in the last episode and
turn in some very heartfelt, you know, earnest performances as
you're saying goodbye to everybody. Yeah, then directing this one,
it's very little prep time for you, given how much
your workload was in the last episode.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
You guys all shared the same burden I did. It
wasn't unique unto me. I know you guys have had
to do the same thing, So I'm probably approach it
the same way you did, which is I never I
take my work seriously, but I don't take myself seriously
and giving yourself some humility and going okay, I made

(07:32):
a big mistake. And actually I've never talked about this before.
I'll tell you one thing. I did a serious work.
The first series I was ever the co star of
the star was with Elizabeth Grayson on a series, a
spin up series of The Highlander called The Raven and
I had been fortunate enough that they decided to make
it her and I was originally supposed to be just
her series, and then they brought me in because they

(07:55):
wanted a nice sort of like somebody moment, right, Yeah, thing,
she was an immortal and I was a cop and
I made the mistake of going to I did a
lot of research. I drew Grove around with like detectives,
and I did some cop research and I went into
Toronto Police Department Detective Union and did all this stuff
and I was, you know, living in la But I

(08:15):
got up there and started the series and I was like,
I'm going to make this the most important acting job
of my life, and I'm going to show everybody to
whom whatever it is. And I got ahead of my
skis a little bit because on the first episode they
had a body falling into the top roof and landing
on a car and denting the roof. And I was
this arrogant young actor thinking I'm going to make this

(08:39):
an emmy word when you show, and it was. It
was misguided in a positive way, but poorly executed because
I was young and immature and didn't understand the nature
of the business and many things. And I had to
go up to it to them and apologize too, because
I really had to come to Jesus moment on that
I said, that doesn't look like a kind of car

(09:00):
their body would hit, As if I'm an expert what
cars look like when bodies hit them.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
From oh wow.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
I went, look, that's a tiny dent man. That body
would have gone right through. And the director goes, yeah,
but you know, maybe not. And I was kind of like, well,
I can't be in the scene if that car doesn't
look properly down. And the director goes, okay, then you're
not in the scene. Oh, and I went what And
I was too arrogant to go, well, wait a minute,

(09:27):
don't come me out of the scene. So he cut
me out of the scene. And I was one of
the stars of the show. And I walked my trailer like, oh, angry,
and you know, I'm righteous about this. And I sat
on my trailer and it seeped in very quickly, like hey, dummy,
you know you're not bigger than the show. You're not
bigger than anybody. Your ideas are just ideas, and everybody

(09:48):
has a right to ideas. Yours can be wrong. And
I sat there and I kind of went back and
I telled him and said, hey, look, you know I
might have misspoke. Whatever. He goes, okay, go back to work,
and he was super cool about it, like he knew
how to have a young actor. And so I wish that,
you know, I hadn't done it, but I really needed
the lesson.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, especially in television because everything moves so fast. There's
just it's not the same amount of time when you're
on a film and you can go and you have
days to rehearse and you all this time. With actors, you.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Just have to script ahead of time for months.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, that's right. So TV comes in and on episodes
like these, even when you're working, you just have to
take the two weeks to prep. I would say that
probably one of the biggest benefits for any of us
as actors jumping in to direct is that the show
was sort of running itself at that point in so
many ways, Paul, did that feel like did it make
it more like present more challenges? Did it make it

(10:43):
more interesting? The fact that it was Were you able
to focus on other things as a director instead of
trying to create a whole new environment and all that,
you know what I mean? Yeah, when you jumped in
on episodes, because like, there was so much about it
that was kind of running itself. So yeah, I gave
you an opportunity to to do new things, try new things.

(11:05):
I mean, what what did you enjoy about that?

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Well? My mindset for directing Montree Hill, and I think
you and I have had what a thousand conversations about
you know this? So it's it's it's a it's a
very nice it's almost like a softball question because you
probably know my answers.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
But the audience doesn't.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Oh, I forget, there's people listening.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
People just really want to know.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
I just love the Hillary's wallpaper and I can't get
over it as I.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Speak, slithering over here.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
It's great, it's it's this is. My goal wasn't to
try to influence the creators of the show, the writers
that you know, anybody else in that sphere when I
got to the set. My goal was to encourage the
actors to leave their complacency after playing the role like

(11:58):
I had many times I walk into scene, I go, Okay,
it's the same kind of dollog I said last episode,
But you know what, let me try and make it
fresh and let me find some nuance. It was to
encourage them to challenge themselves. And I remember many instances
with everybody was to say, yeah, we've seen that. What
else do you got?

Speaker 5 (12:15):
Like?

Speaker 3 (12:15):
What is new in this? How do we challenge ourselves
to make this a different experience so that we can
light that fire again, because I want the actors to
come in and be inspired by well not me particularly,
but by the freedom to know that I'll let you
try something you didn't try before because I want to
see it too, because I'm a fan. And that was

(12:36):
the goal was to push those buttons so that when
we would get when I get phone calls from like
the network or from even the creator, sometimes it's like, oh,
that was a great performance you got out of somebody said,
how was them? They just need permission to go there?

Speaker 2 (12:49):
That's nice? All well, you can tell there's certain scenes
in this episode that had the Paul hallmark on them,
especially like when Skills was waking mouth up and you
just let the camera live on mouth after Skills left
the room and watched him like just like fuddle with
the pillows and try to get back to sleep. You

(13:09):
let actors rest or linger in a moment longer than
other directors would, just to see like what are they
gonna do?

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Acting class? Remember when we were all in acting classes.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Hillary did where did June Stein? I studied with June Stein,
who was a professor at Columbia. She was one of
the original actors in what is It? The Miss Firecracker pageant?
John she was like pals with John Tatro and all them,
and she did my scene study class and put me
through the ringer.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
What was her thing? What was her thing? She owned
to She really was.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
About like choices and being able to give as many
choices as possible so that our directors, our editors had
things to play with. And so for me, I I
really was happy that before I went in One Tree Hill,
there was an adult in my life that was telling me, cool,
you got choice A, would choice be and choice C,

(14:06):
and then also have a choice D just ready to
go in case somebody asks for it. And that as
you know, how old was I eighteen nineteen when I
was working with her. That was a really simple way
for me to understand what I needed to bring to
the table when I hit a set.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Do you remember that? Did you see the Bradley Cooper
interview on the Round Table when he was nominated now
Mastro He referenced Vince Vaughan on wedding Crashers and he said,
the best lesson I ever learned in acting was watching
Vince Vaughn and wedding Crashers. But Bradley Cooper only had
a very tiny role, if you remember, And he said,

(14:42):
Vince Vaughn would go take after take and everything was
completely different than the last take, and he was willing
to fail, like e didn miserably fail in front of
the crew and cast. Didn't care, just want to keep
trying things. And he said that bus lust and I
ever had that kind of reminds me of what you
were just explaining.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, and my you know, my acting partner in that
class is now really successful, you know, executive, executive producer
and showrunner. He did Grace what is it? Grace Jones? No,
he did what is it? What just came out? Daisy Jones?
And the sixth Oh yeah, he did Shrinking Like James
Ponsol is a brilliant director, but he was a brilliant

(15:19):
actor before he was a director. And we used to
just like try all the time. And so it was
really fun to come up with someone like that and
then see the things that they're making now that are
all choices, it's just character driven choices.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah, we all felt the permission to do that from you.
I know that I had studied on Guiding Light. I
mean that was you know, what I mean, Like, I
just did high school theater and I showed up on
I got pilots and stuff. Since I was fourteen sixteen,
I was doing things and lots of Broadway training in

(15:53):
small theater classes around New York and stuff, but nothing
uh substantial or of note or name. I was just
picking up jobs wherever I could and learning along the way.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Set education is so ill for it, it is final way.
Most colleges won't let you work. We talked with MICHAELA.
McManus about that. Once you get into NYU, or you
get into somebody with an esteemed acting program, they don't
let you audition for outside things until you graduate because
they want you to complete the program.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Did you have that experience, Paul, when you were training
or did you even have active trait because you were basketball?
And then remind me what happened.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
God just touched me with talent.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Brilliant looks the brilliant shedding gold as he walks down
the street.

Speaker 5 (16:57):
Trophies, he said, looks brains naw, I can only pick one.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
I like it. It was so easy.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Where did you learn that? Where did you learn all
the thing about options and being able to as a
director give that permission to actors. How did you know
about that?

Speaker 3 (17:17):
I mean, I have to say that I think a
lot of us don't give enough credit to our our
environment growing up as children. You know, I grew up
with a father who was a you know, an alcoholic,
a very difficult man who found God late in his
life and converted to a very dogmatic religion, and you know,
but he was tough. He was a tough man. He

(17:39):
was the NHL won the Stanley Cup. My mom was
an artist who, you know, who was unsatisfied. So that
sort of like longing for something more than we are
was kind of built into me. And so I think
when I started playing basketball, it was kind of a
way to get away from, you know, this very kind
of normality of my life, and I just longed for

(18:00):
things and and I think when I got into acting,
you know, I got hired very quickly when I moved
to Hollywood because I was a basketball player with the
Canadian national team and I came to America and I
wanted to try out the NBA and some other pro leagues,
and I started getting commercials, like I did twenty commercials
in one year. You know, back when they used to
pay and me hired me to do a commercial with

(18:22):
him and Magic Johnson. I did a commercial with him
and Tim Hardaway, and I started in Kentucky and write
Chicken and then the Diet Croke and I started doing
all these commercials and I was like, Oh, this shit's easy, man,
I just got to And then I realized, Oh, there's
no acting in this. It's just all kind of like
being a basketball guy.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Sometimes it was wandling in some ways.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah, it was like I hit the description of what
they were looking for. But then I got humbled very quickly.
I've told the Space Pops prop story. I studied with
a Daryl Hickman, who who was whose brother Wasdbe Gillis
in the in this series, and and Daryl was a
very intense guy. And then I started with Stephen Gosh,

(19:08):
I'm embarrassed about these these names. But when I really
started to learn the disciplines, when I joined a repertory
Shakespeare company and did several seasons with them and got
the discipline. And it's when I learned how to smoke.
Because he goes, stay away from the catering table, have
one of these and I was like, oh yeah, and

(19:30):
you he goes, you won't be hungry and it's good
for you. Oh my god, this is like nineteen twenty
five or whatever it was. And so I started smoking,
you know, because of theater, and we all smoked in
theater because.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Where are part of the uniform.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, we weren't allowed to do and doing you know
Steve oh yeah, Stephen Book was my acting coach, and
we weren't allowed to act, were't allowed to take jobs.
Carlo Kucina was in that class. And more more, Cheerney
was in that class. Oh wow, lot of great actors
came out of that class. I studied with there, and
then I went to New York and there was a

(20:08):
very very very interesting acting coach there that's kind of famous,
who Kevin Klein uses and I worked with him for
a while and he was tough. He was very much
like everything that you're doing is because you're trying to
do the writer's job for them. Don't do that. Don't

(20:30):
do the writer's job. They have their job. You have
your job. They give you the words. Your job is
to is to know the words and do everything against
them you can. Because so much of the work that
everything underneath that is going to be what's called layered
life and give them context. And when you say I
shot scenes and I leave the camera on, it's because
of this thing that you guys know called you know,

(20:52):
that private moment. And we learn more about a character
through private moments when they're alone and nobody's watching, then
we do when they're in a conversation with somebody.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes, I love that, and that's what Hillary's talking about.
You leave the camera for the actor to just have
a moment instead of cutting away. You leave that in
the edit, and we learned so much more about where
a character's coming from. It's lovely.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
But even if they don't, if you cut it right,
I always felt like I could learn something that I
could take into the next take.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, you still carry it with you in your box, right.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
So, like if the scene ends on mouth putting those
pillows over his head and just like resisting what is
being offered to him, you know, you yell cut and
then two seconds later you go into the next take
and he's still got that energy in his body of
resistance that you let him have. And it reads in
this I like, you know, Hayden is one to have

(21:45):
lots of quiet moments, and so I appreciate that we
got to just settle into those because our show was
so montage and fast paced and there's eight million characters,
so to let people have that space is rare. Yeah, well,
we have.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
Those to give credit to the post production team too,
because at the end of the day they can veto
oar cut so they can decide and if they see
there's value there, you know, we you know, I always
say that, you know, we have to really in this
meetium particularly, we have to have so much credit to
post production, and people understand, well, we hand them all
these ingredients and we go here, you go, good luck,

(22:21):
let us know what it turns out. Yeah, yeah, and
we do a terrific job. You know.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, well you did a terrific job in this episode.
I really, actually really enjoyed this episode. There were a
lot of pieces coming together, you know, the last one
that we had. It felt like there were a lot
of new open doors, a lot of endings and open
doors beginnings were available now and things were starting to
progress in a lot of these storylines. I loved your

(22:45):
use of long lenses. There were so many long lens
shots in this episode that were really beautiful. The lighting
was amazing, and I know you were working with Pete, right,
Pete KOs was on this.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
I had a question about when you are working in
a television format like this where the schedule is really fast,
when you set up scenes, are you paying Are you
walking into a set paying attention to where the lighting is,
where the things and the sets are, and then you
ask the actors to be in that area so you
can set your shots up in those places? Do you

(23:18):
approach things wherever it's just a free for all and
it's totally up the lighting guys to set things up
where the actors go, which sometime times can be a
challenge on a tight schedule like we had. How do
you approach that where you can still be free and
artistic but also keep within the timeframe.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
Oh what a terrific question, because anybody who wants to
get into this industry has to struggle with this because
when you walk your sets before your actors are there,
and we all do that, we walk them with our
tech crew, right, remember those walks.

Speaker 6 (23:47):
You know?

Speaker 3 (23:47):
So I was thinking this, and I was thinking this
and goes, yeah, that's too flat of a background. You
mind want to do this with this? And you know
that we can't put lights there because we have a
kinnots over here, and they won't fit because you were
going to am I going oh okay, So what I
needed to do was right.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
And then the actors would walk in and they'd be like,
I don't want to be over there. Why am I
over there? I should be on this side of the room.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Actors like me, you would do that.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
There's no other actor on the show except maybe me.
You would walk in and I'd go, so I had
to say, you're making popcorn and you come over here,
You're like, going, you just have me popcorn. I don't
like popcorn? What if I have? What if I'm making the.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Jerry Cublie, you should make me popcorn if she doesn't
have time to eat it. I don't have time to
eat popcorn. Why would I be making it if I
don't have time to eat? It doesn't any sense.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Well, I remember, I don't remember exactly what this was.
There was a scene in the kitchen one time in
the Big House where you were. I was saying, well,
what if you're you're you're trying to find something you
can't find it. I remember, I'd love to find this
episode And you're like, Oh, I love that idea, and
you took it so far that every cabinet in the
kitchen was wide open and everything was everywhere. You're just

(24:51):
looking and we didn't even know what you were looking for.
It didn't matter, but that was your scene. I remember this,
so I don't know what episode there said I gotta
find it. It's just like, oh boy, last time I
remember giving her an idea with an open end to it.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Props is freaking out what.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
We're gonna say.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
We're on the planes. Who lives close with plates?

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Come over with your plates?

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, but by the way, when you shine, because it's
you lost in that I do.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
It's fun, but but it is. That was a hard
learning curve for me because of the time frame, and
I was young and stubborn and couldn't hear when people
were like, joy, we literally do not have time for
this idea. It's super fun, but we don't have time.
I couldn't hear it. I had a really hard time
with that, And that's youth is wasted on the young.
But you know, how do you you were older than us,

(25:41):
you were you know more season How do you.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
That you.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Was when ts were circular?

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Oh my god?

Speaker 2 (25:52):
I've been listening to sixties on six with my kids
and they're like, this music's so old. I'm like, this
is when dad was born. Six For a time.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
You can also stay young though through keeping curious. I
think that's I think that's the sicke of to stake.
But to answer the question, because it is a good question.
What I walk a set, I was going to finish,
was I look for never shooting flat against walls. I
always look for if I can shoot through a doorway
into a room and then see a window or another
doorway into something else, then I can get I get

(26:26):
what I call like a really interesting layered dynamic for lighting.
So I don't shoot flat. I always go I never
walk in a room and look at the wall. That's
if you do that. I don't know why you even
bother shooting on a set, just shoot on a wall.
I like to find as many different layers so that
I can have an actor coming foreground and background and
have them passed. But I love passing off. When you

(26:47):
were talking about economy of shooting and how do you
shoot so fast even in indie films, which I'm more
doing involved now, it's, by the way, what a great
English sentence, it's more doing involved.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Now I got y'all what you were saying, we followed
you all the way down.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
That some more involved in doing.

Speaker 5 (27:06):
It.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
It's the French that we the verbs. The idea is
to is to sometimes I think pass off. Have an
actor start the scene coming in and let's say they
pass the sofa, somebody's sitting there, and as the dialogue hits,
you want to be able to just rack to that
person and then if the person can go behind them again,
then I don't have to go into all these separate shots.

(27:29):
It's kind of, you know, sleeker, more fun to have
the audience because they'll go with you. Audiences will go
take them on a trip.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, to feel like they're there in the room. Yeah,
rather than they have to they get to just face
to face to face to face to face to face.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
I just would rather just find something creative, especially if
the scene has any length to it. I mean a
short little scene like that, Oh fine, put it on
some sticks and get coverage and get out of there.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
But like the airport scene, what you just did with
what you did in this episode Julian and Brooke in
the end, that airport, the long lens, the way they
were crossing each other, the way he stood up and
people were passing. Also, wonderful use of extras. The background actors,
I feel like, are so often just placed to walk awkwardly,
and I love that everybody was moving around and it

(28:18):
felt so natural.

Speaker 3 (28:19):
If I remember correctly, I remember we had to I
remember that I was up against the little Remember who
it was. There was somebody on the set that was saying,
you know that the network prefers you know, you know,
those kind of shots that are more framing in the
face and focused around. But I said, well, look, you know,
and I just had worked with my friend Nick on

(28:40):
a movie where he I think it was My Sister's Keeper,
and he used deacons on that. I think Roger Deakins
is the greatest DP alive right now. He even has
a documentary out about him.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
I just like that you did it in a crowd
because it made it mortifying had you just been framed
on Austin's face.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Blade Runner two thousand, nineteen seventeen, Empire of Lights Cecario,
The Assassination Barton Fak No Country for Old Men.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
He's brilliant, so he.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
Uses long lenses in interiors in a way where he
puts the cameras four or not necessarily, he could take
it outside of a window, but he'll put a two
hundred zoom lens on a camera. And what happens is,
if you're sharp in focused, everything around you looks almost
like a twinkling world, like a beautiful little thing. And
I didn't quite go to that for I might have

(29:33):
used one hundred zoom or something like that.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
But you did that on the River Court.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah, yeah, I did on the River Court too. As
much as I could, I tried to use long lenses.
And then really what it is is it brings the
actor and focus, but it gives almost a sort of
like a surreal world around them, which is more glittery
with the light clicking off of the of the river
and things like that. It's just pretty, you know.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
I want to know, Paul, With a series that you're on, right,
it's one thing when you go in and you are
a guest director that's just cruising into somebody else's universe
and you don't really have context for where the characters
have been for the last few years. But with a
show that you're on and you know these characters really well,
and you know what Brook's been through and what Lucas

(30:25):
has been through and all of that. I can never
direct because I have opinions like I don't like Julian.
I think Julian's the worst boy ever. I think ultimatums
are horrendous. Not into it, Yeah, I was not a sidebar.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Was not into this like random, Hey, I'm leaving in
like twenty four hours, kid, I could get on a plane.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
N Yeah, bye of narcissism.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
My life is so important, that is invaluable misogyny.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Sure, how do you keep your opinion out of it?
Because I'm thinking, like, if I had to, you made
Julian look so lovely in this airport scene that you
guys are talking about, and all I could think is like,
I fuck him up. I'd make him look real dumb
in this airport scene because how dare he put all
this pressure on this poor girl?

Speaker 6 (31:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (31:12):
But instead it was so romantic. Instead, you made it.
You made it through sad. I couldn't keep my opinion
out of it.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
You remember broadcast news? Oh yes, the greatest movies ever made?

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Am I rightly?

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Hunter?

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Holly Hunter's scene with William Hurt at the airport where
he gets the tickets and he says, come with me,
come with me, come with me, and she's like, okay,
I'll be there. Then she finds out he cheated. He lied,
not a sexual he cheated because he falsified a news
report which showed he had no integrity and she couldn't
go through with it. So at the airport in her

(31:49):
like pajamas with no luggage, he goes, yeah, no, I'm
not going. You know, you have fun, and he's like,
you can't. You can't just forgive me for that one thing.
She goes no, because it's like basically saying no because
that's who you are, and I can't be with who
you are.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
You can't see it.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
It's such a kind of in my mind where I
was shooting that, I was thinking of like the broadcast
news moment, like you know what I mean, like I
love my life so much and you go have yours
or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
So you were worried about Julian and how unbelievable the
situation was that he was giving her this crazy ultimatum
and she's running around like I've known for a.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
While, but I didn't feel that was my my It
wasn't that would be on on my lane because I'm
not going to be able to change the writers. Yeah, ideas,
and I have to service the you guys. And if
let's just say, I, if Sophia would have come or whatever,
I would have immediately said, I love your thoughts. Can

(32:49):
we bring the writers in because I can't overrule a
story that's been in the works for weeks and they've
passed through the network, through the producers, through the show runner,
through everybody else, and then me to go, yeah, I'm
not cool with that. I would have gone, I'll tell
you what, if you have an oppisode, I will support you.
Let's go together, Let's go talk and say, hey, you
know what, this is, how she should take this. And

(33:11):
if she'd have said, let's do a take where I
just go, you know, basically, you know, I would have
gone down to do that take. I'll shoot it. I'll
shoot whatever the actors want to shoot. We'll also get
our job done too.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
At the same time, sure, did they offer you any
explanation as to why Julian had to go back the
guy with very few strings attached?

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah? The steaks were so imaginary.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, I couldn't understand what the urgency was.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
And it felt like it was somebody I don't know.
I mean, you know, these there's some genius in our
show and moments, there's some pure genius. And then with
everything in life, there's some things that don't make as
much sense. We spoke about one earlier in this episode
of this podcast. But again, I think you kind of

(34:01):
have to. If you have moral objections, you got to
speak them up. If you have story objections, I think
those conversations have to happen long before you get to
the set.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, when we didn't get to do read throughs because
it was so bang bang bang bang bangs. Yeah, did the.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
First two seasons, didn't we the first season?

Speaker 1 (34:18):
The first season? What we would do?

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Did we feel? It was a first episode episode, but
it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
A regular occurrence twenty two episodes? How are you going
to find time? We could barely get everybody in the
same room to shoot on some days, and we had.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Some seasons where we were twenty six episodes or something.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Oh my god, we did.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah. Well, so for you know, for these storylines and
servicing these storylines. We've been in this boat for six years.
At this point, Brooke is finally like maybe going to
tell someone she loves him. He has said goodbye to
her thirty seven times, like they have said goodbye so
many times, and are.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
Like, it's so good at playing, like the of of
how her emotions can kind of just suck you in
and make care for her. I think she was exceptional
in this scene.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
I really she made me buy it.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
Every time I thought she was going to say it,
She's finally going to say it, She's finally going to
say it, and then she just it hurts so bad
to see it well up in her throat and her
just shove it back down, like never mind, I'll keep
it to myself.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Did they bring him back? They brought hit that character back, Juliane.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Right, because yeah, he's been a couple of times.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Are going to draw him the one time? Then the
Hammerhead Sharks off the coast of East Carolina.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
They ended up getting married, Paul, Yes, that was it.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
That's her her end game.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
But what's this?

Speaker 1 (35:50):
These are the things that confused me so much about
our show that we shot twenty two episodes. They had
a board a mile long in that writer's room. How
could they not map out a realistic timeline for stakes
for these two characters so that you actually felt like
you were invested in not He's here for four weeks
and then all of a sudden, Brook's heart is breaking

(36:12):
in half because a guy she's known a month gives
her three plane tickets and says, you and your new
adopted kids should come live with me in La And
she's not, like, that's super sweet, thank you, but maybe
we can talk on the phone a little bit more
before I move my whole life out, Like, why did
they not take the time we had twenty two episodes?

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Okay, I'm done, no, no, but remember this is Hollywood
is a business, and that contracts with actors. They don't
know if they're going to pick them up till they
see how the audiential reaction. They don't know, okay, fair,
They don't know what's going on until they go, oh,
look at the feedback we're getting for this storyline. We
should do both this. There's a lot involved at the point.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
With the movie that Julian is doing being shitcanned, Like
the movie's done? What's he rushing back to? He's out
of a job.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Dad doesn't even like working with him, right, yustic job too?

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Oh that's right. That's right. Everybody's lost their job and
he's like, well, really got to uproot you and your
little kid here.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Wouldn't it be great if we were privileged to the
conversations that the never rush we were having with our
writing team, so that we could understand how they got
to certain conclusions. We weren't involved in those, and we
have no idea, but it'd be yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
And also there's always that factor of was it just
such a different time fifteen twenty years ago that the
default was the woman would follow the man? Has it
been that long that it was just the assumption at
that point, because now we're all like, she probably makes
more money than he does. What the yeah? You know, like,

(37:49):
what are we doing here?

Speaker 1 (37:50):
I think they could have done something like I've got
an offer. I'm going to go shoot a movie in
Morocco and they're paying us so much money, and I
want to bring you and give Sam an experience of
being overseas. You can design overseas, like raise the stakes
to something that's not just I got to go back
to la and try and get another job.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
Just for everybody, we want to hear the conversations that
we've never had the thought.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
That I had in my whole head was like, no
fucking wonder. I was still thinking about Lucas the whole
time she was datingly, Like no wonder. Peyton was like, Okay,
we're good, go to Sundance by We're done.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
So end up if you could right now.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
I got married, I know, But now where are they?

Speaker 3 (38:33):
What is Peyton and what is Lucas doing right now?
Ten years after those times?

Speaker 1 (38:38):
You and every fan they always ask us this question
at conventions and stuff. Paul, Yes, so good.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Peyton's doing that thing where she's in like deep therapy
at this point because when you're little, you don't know
how screwed up you are until you have kids and
you're like, wait a second, I don't want to hit
this kid. I don't want to scream at this kid.
What to me? Yeah, it's just like deep.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
And is Lucas like Stephen kitting now or what's going on?

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Like I don't know. I bet he's still strong, like
I love how like strong Chad is right now? And
all the thirst trap pictures he posts on Instagram, I'm like,
where was this? What the hell?

Speaker 3 (39:17):
Have you seen his new show?

Speaker 2 (39:19):
I haven't watched it yet. Now, what's his show Sullivans
Y Suivan's Crossing. It isn't with the dude from Gilmore Girls.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
That's great, Yeah, yeah good.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
He's strong as hell. I was texting with him the
other day and he was just like, I'm either working
or lifting weights or playing with my kids, and that's
my trifecta. He's just doing.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
The producer of that series is an old friend of
mine who I did a movie with I think with Gosh.
We shot it up in Canada and Sudbury, Ontario.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Unbelieva Sudbury. I shot in Sudbury, ended up the town
that blew up, like there's minds there and it blew up.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah that's right now, Oh the mind have you been
down on the mines?

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Go in the mines. I was making a Christmas movie, Paul,
that's so cool. I was playing with reindeer. Hilarious. Okay,
So the Julian and the brook of it all, we
like them. Personally, I don't like this coupling. I don't
like all the pressure. It's really stressing me out.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
But I did love Sophia's black flip hairdoo and her
black motorcycle jacket because I haven't This is like the
Carol Cutshall episode.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
You were in a leather jacket. I noticed that too.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, I was into your rebellious red hair. This was
like the first time I really showed up. That was fun.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Sick of the blandche You were rebelling two thousand and nine, right,
it was two thousand nine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, two
thousand and nine.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Okay, okay, wow.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, okay, So there's that. Let's talk about college party.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
This random college party in the middle of a day.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Have any actually been to real college parties? Is my question?
Because I'm gonna drop out, I would do a few.
Did you have a Greek life?

Speaker 5 (41:04):
All this?

Speaker 3 (41:04):
Like, you know, it's not as I mean, that's a
really American phenomenon. Greek life. You know, Canada is more
clubs rather than you know, fraternity. We have them, but
it's not a it's not the thing it is in America,
where it's you know, I just don't it's not profound,
it's it's you know, it's very different. But I would say, well,

(41:24):
Canadians are wonderful, unique people, so it's just different.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
I guess We're not tacky, is what he was trying
to say. We're not doing your techy clubs.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
I did John sears On on Beverly Hills nine O,
two and O, and all of my scenes were that life,
and they're kind of made up like that, a little
bit to be, you know, a little more risque, a
little bit more evil, a little more stuff. But I
guess there's all bad stuff and good stuff. But I
mean I think there's I don't know, you remember about

(41:53):
last Night? That whole movie was about that life, wasn't it.
Remember you didn't see about Last Night the original movie?

Speaker 2 (42:00):
To me?

Speaker 3 (42:00):
More and and no.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Okay, no, but but I think Gigi represented a fantasy
on our show of like a hot chicks throwing themselves
at you, And so it makes sense that she exists
within this fantasy of like, mmm, now there's a whole
pack of chicks at our disposal?

Speaker 3 (42:23):
Would have been differently if it was if there was
a predominantly female writing staff, How had that been represented differently?

Speaker 1 (42:31):
The college party you mean.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah, the college parties, Yeah, because the perspective is completely
is everything, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (42:36):
It is? But I didn't go to any college parties.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
So I've never been to a friend, no party. I've
never That's why I asked I was like, who of
us has actually been in that situation? Because I went
to school in New York City, Like, there were no
frats or sororities in my college. We just went to
the Blarney Stone.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Academic at the University of British Columbia. I didn't, I
mean to some parties, but it was never like that.
Like I said, it was these are you know, brain
cerebral kids really kind of studio.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
What we're saying is someone should invite us to a
party just.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
For like it's just for college research.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
We're going to get an email and then that, you know,
it's it's crazy that we were so close to you
and c W and no one invited us to a party.
We were so close to Were we that lame that
no one wanted to party?

Speaker 1 (43:25):
I think James went to those parties because he.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Was a young one.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
I forget that we were into college town too.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, the college kids didn't want to hang out with them.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
They were like no hard pass. I did love this
storyline though. I really liked First of all, I love
a friend who shows up at your house when you're
not feeling well and is like getting the car we're
taking a road drift ride or just shows up and
takes you, makes you take a walk or go for
coffee or something. I just love that. And as much
as I disliked the college party environment for multiple reasons,

(43:59):
mostly just because I've felt really bad for Kelsey, it
just felt it felt like such a weird situation for
her to constantly be put in. I liked this version
of Skills trying to work out his own relationship issues
like trying to have mouth do it Skills his way,

(44:19):
and then realizing this is not who you are.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Man.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
I'm gonna let me actually take you, let me give
you an opportunity to see what you think you're missing,
and then I'm going to take you to see who
you really need. You're such a good friend. I just
I just liked it.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
I don't even think Skills was creazy. I didn't mind
the party. I thought it was like fun. It reminded
me of the parties that we had when we were
in high school. The only thing that's creepy is like
the dudes that are clearly out of school going back
Flora like that's the But then I thought back to
my own college days and I was dating like a
twenty five year old who would come into the dorm

(44:55):
and looking back, it's so gross. It's like embarrassing almost,
that's what it is. It's embarrassing. The mouth and skills
are standing there. You had them dressed very differently from
everybody else, so they stick out like sore thumbs, and
that that visibility was important to the storytelling. It was like, oh, actually,

(45:16):
this isn't a world that we've fit in. We're the
old guys. We should go.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
Do you remember how they held mouth upside down for
the keg drink thing?

Speaker 6 (45:26):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah, and then Jamie with the car too.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
That was great.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
I thought I was so clever by putting Jamie upside
down in there, which I had to match them.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
It was clever, it was cute. Those kinds of things
make the show. It makes it interesting to watch in
random moments Easter eggs of Hey, guys, we're here doing
fun stuff for you.

Speaker 6 (45:44):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Well, let's get into the garage though, because because all these.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Two together, right, wasn't it great to see the brothers
kind of yeah, Cam.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
In Keith's garage.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
There's a real beauty to Chad and James together because
they come to the same emotion from two really different places,
and James has that very old Hollywood kind of huh.
There's like, it's almost like a very slow Carrie Grant

(46:30):
Jemmy Stewart kind of reaction. There's a just a classic
nature to the way he reacts to news about Dan,
to laying eyes on the garage after all this time,
to giving advice to Lucas.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, it's deeply internal.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
It's really slow and it's fun to watch it on Furral.
And then Chad has a very modern approach to things
and he's very his emotion is very visible right away,
and it's you know, stereotypically it would be described as
like feminine really because women are stereotypically the ones that
are vocal about their emotions. But Lucas have been raised

(47:08):
by a mother, is someone who is quick to acknowledge
his emotions. And so it's cool to see these guys
in this space that's so meaningful, and for you to
be the bad guy directing them through this scene, it's
hard to it's hard to imagine them hitting their mark

(47:29):
and then hearing Dan scott yell action.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
I think they divorce themselves from that one I'm directing.
I don't know what they assume, but I will say,
what do you hit? There was various student you found
something really beautiful? What I call those little hidden gems
is Chad seemed to me, always seems to me when
he's working with James as curious about finding things out.
And James, although has the wall and it's kind of

(47:53):
reluctant to share his emotions so easily. He wants someone
to work to get them out of him. And so
when Chad gives him that gift, James gets to be
more than what we often get because he wants people
to like, please ask me, please ask me, but I
don't really want to tell you because you know. And
then when he does, you go, oh, oh, it's really

(48:16):
beautiful to watch.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
That's such a good way to describe it. He wants
someone to ask, and Chad is ready to ask.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Yes, yes, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
I loved that, And I like the introduction of Jamie
into that scenario too, that he was watching a little
kid try and figure out how the world works. When
he asked, is it okay for me to still miss
Grandpa Dan?

Speaker 3 (48:40):
Like?

Speaker 1 (48:40):
How do you? Is it okay for me to be
angry and also miss someone? Is it okay for me
to like acknowledge something that's bad but also still have love. Like,
those are really big concepts and to watch a little
kid struggle through them. I like being reminded of the
things that we think about as a child, and we
still carry those thoughts with us as we grow and

(49:02):
grow and grow, and don't even necessarily have the answers
to them. We just keep revisiting it over and over
and over again.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, he did a great job. And seeing him in
the Keith costume with the boots and the pants tucked in,
you know, that legacy of what does it mean to
be a Scott the father to son, uncle to nephew relationship.
I like that our show perpetuated that and just like
kept it going. And yeah, this idea that Dan's gonna die, Paul,

(49:37):
I would love your take on things, because this was
the episode for me as we were reaching the end
of our contracts where it really solidified that they were
toying with the idea of killing me, and they'd already
killed Keith, and they'd put Moira on a shelf and
all the actors who were being paid well from the
beginning were cut off, and it occurred to me as

(50:02):
you know, Peyton's preparing for her own death, that oh,
I should do this emotional labor right now. I should
prepare myself because I don't know what's going to happen,
the same way Peyton doesn't know. But for you, you're
also in this limbo where it's like, are they really
going to kill me? And you've been living there much
longer than me.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
I struggle sometimes because I know that all this goes public.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Sure, I mean there might be a headline.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Well no, no, I mean I want people to know things.
But I'm also careful because, as I said, you know,
I'm I get hurt easily, and so I got to
be careful that I don't care. I was told at
the end of that season that we're cutting your salary.
It's take it or leave it. So I knew that

(50:50):
there was some in the writing signs that if I
didn't take a reduced salary that I was gone, And
so I decided that I was probably going to be
on because I was like feeling I'm worth whatever I'm
being paid. You know, I've established myself and I think
I have value to the show, and I hopefully filled
the audience feels that way. But that didn't matter at
that point. At the end of the day, we agreed

(51:13):
on me only doing ten episodes the following season, I think,
and I would still be directing because they didn't want
to fire me as director. They just want to get
rid of me as an actor because they thought they
were paying me too much, or they had or they
were cutting into whatever they were doing, whatever it was,
and they're bringing in new cast, all kinds of stuff,
and so I took over.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
The cast that they would pay nothing all over again.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
And I took a reduced salary for the last a
couple of seasons and then kind of got a little
bump again near the end. But it was it was hurt.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Because sorry, Paul, value it's but it is. It's hurtful, Yeah,
to build something and be told you're not valuable enough
to maintain your salary.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Especially when you know how much money they were making
on the production and that the producers and the studio like,
there's just it's unreasonable.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
It's me.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
It could be considered that. And what I try to
do is say to myself, well, first off, the audience
needs a proper sending off of this character. They deserve
a storyline that means something, so let me do the
ten episodes and give them that. But then Dan kind
of caught fire again and they couldn't get rid of me, really,
and so they kind of were like, well, but you
come back, and I'm like, now, I was like, you

(52:31):
wanted the ten episodes, I'm so happy to give it
to you, and you know, but they didn't finish the storyline.
Then they said, well, I have a great idea, and
then they pitched me this other idea where we all
know where it went, and I said, that sounds super fun.
I'd love to do it. You know, I just can't
do it, you know, at that price, and because I
feel like, you know, it's wrong for me to take

(52:51):
lesson what I feel i'm worth, even though I think
it's a great story and I'm really happy about it.
And so we worked out something else, which wasn't what
it should have been. But it's like, again, nobody is
a right to in our industry to say, like, you know,
I deserve a certain amount of money. You deserve what
you can negotiate, because that's business.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Yeah, well yeah, it's in every business.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, but it's really rare in other industries. If you
worked at the bank and they came to you and
they said, hey, you've been here a decade. It's so cool.
We're going to pay you seventy percent of what we've
been paying, you know, like any other industry, that's such
a weird shoots and ladders thing to do to a person.

(53:29):
And living in that limbo. You know, we're in six
nineteen here, and there's five more episodes left in this season,
and so you're working for five more episodes having to
wonder am I behaving well enough? Am I making people happy?
What did I do wrong? Is anyone going to give

(53:50):
me a straight answer? Or am I getting the run around?
Like the manipulation was really well?

Speaker 3 (53:56):
You guys felt it too. I mean, yeah, no different ways.
Let me just say this on a pousitive note, I didn't.
Once you make the decision, what your decision is, I
do let it go and I focus on.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
The work because you have to argue.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
You know, I completely let it go. And I never
have been brought it up to the producers. I never
brought it up to the cast, never brought to anybody
because I'm a pro and as are you guys. And
once I make the decision, it's my decision and I'm
going to live with it. So I didn't want it.
And that's why I never speak about it.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Really.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
I brought it up because you've brought up a point about, hey,
there's a foreshadowing here. Sure was that, and well that
was a negotiating thing and it was put on my plate.
It was meant to scare me or whatever. And so
I brought it up because it's it was a storyline
that they used in a way to haggle with an
actor about money.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Well, it's how they haggled with Craig about his facial
hair and his bandana and like the stuff he wanted.
They said, either change these things or we will get
rid of you. And he was like, not going to
change these things, and they got rid of him. They
so we are already had it.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
There's so many egos and power plays that go on
behind the scenes that affect the work.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
That's he was missed.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Joy, Craig was missed when he was gone. He was
a whole Yeah, in me and I think in you
guys too. He was such a calming and you know,
a veteran, you know, lovely human being who really cared
for us. All it was. It was. I know that
what they had to do there to do, but I
deeply missed his presence.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Yeah, you know, he was one of the biggest hearts
of the show, everybody, you know, representing a part of
the body as a whole what this show was.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
It's so funny. I had like goosebumps in these conversations.
Don't you guys get that way when you talk.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
About well because of the line between fact and fiction,
because we were a unit off camera and obviously a
unit on camera because that's the story that we're telling.
But what happens on camera affects what happens off care
and vice a person. So yeah, living with that loss
and knowing how quickly and you know, severely it can happen,

(56:11):
We're all prepped and ready for it to happen, you know,
for our heads to roll at any point, And so
I felt I felt taken care of in this moment
where it dawned on me that Peyton might die because
my contract was up, because you were the person who
was at the helm of how I was portraying it,

(56:31):
and every other director always wanted me to cry. I mean,
every visiting director was like, can we get a tear?
Can we get a sniffle? And I just love the scene.
I have such tactile sense memory of that hat box
at the end of the episode that Peyton's putting the
sketches in. I wanted to keep that more than any

(56:54):
other prop I'd ever had on the show. I wanted
it so bad. And I have such memories of you
being like, don't cry when you put that picture in here,
Like you don't let them see you cry. You are
in full control of what's going on. And that sense
of like bittersweet empowerment I hold very dear because things

(57:17):
do end, people do die, stuff falls apart, and you
can keep your chin up.

Speaker 3 (57:22):
You know, I could get a compliment from anybody in
the world, it would be just like that. That makes
me feel.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Well, it's a compliment to you, Paul.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Well, no, it's a beautiful That's what I'm saying is
I'm grateful for the recognition of how much I care
about you guys. You know, I mean that means the
whole ten years of my life in North Carolina. If
it was just one compliment like that, it'd be worth
it all. You know.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
I love that well, we all had those moments with
you I'm glad I didn't cry. Those mother filled me.
Then I don't cross some pictures. I'll leave them behind.
I don't care.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
I never cried in public either.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Our dignity you.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Were always you were like the walls, Paul. You were
just there kind of watching, listening, and you just you
had you had just the right door window for us
at the exact right moment to open up and share
something or remind us of where we were and what
we needed, what was important. But you were so good
at that, just sort of being their hands off and

(58:23):
showing up exactly when it was needed, like in that
moment with Well.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
That means everything. I also remember that, you know, all
you guys had come with such wide eyes, such excitement.
I remember everybody's face the first time I was introduced
to each one of you, you know, even even Sophie.
I remember the very first time she came on the said,
I remember you know everybody, and it was just kind
of like, this is going to be something, going to

(58:50):
be something, And I didn't know if it was like
even the pile we show about, we know where it
picked up. I felt this is going to be something.
Everybody brought such hope to their work, you know, you know,
I wouldn't it be great if every experience was like that.
I didn't. I hadn't felt that on every experience I
was on, and in fact, I felt very much an
outsider on many shows I've been a guest on, and

(59:13):
films are different because those are sort of you know,
location ships with people and then you're gone. But this
was never has there been anything like family? And because
I was such an evil and maniacally bizarre character in
many ways and unpredictable. And I love that I was
the spice in the stew. I love that. But I
was never unloved by people on the cast. I was loved,

(59:35):
and that was what made it okay to go to
those places in those scenes. I made it okay, you know.
And I know that even the tensions that I had
with certain people you know, are long forgotten and long forgiven,
and those there are moments of like humanity, not moments
of evil. That makes the difference.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Well, so then how did you direct our new big
bad this the Fall Fall? I hope that. I'm so
glad she had you to hold her hand through this weirdness,
because who are you talking about the principal ram Kiss
who showed up in your living room? Joy, you had
so much to do with this episode. Haley was in

(01:00:12):
everybody's house or office. Haley graveled this episode. But then
this woman had the audacity to walk her ass into
your living room to my house. Children can forgive, but
a grown ass woman. That's a Dan Scott move to
walk into somebody else's house.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
It is talk about making the writing work, because that's
just in the script. Like the kid says something and
turns around and there she is in the living room,
and you got to figure out how to make that believable.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Well, asked me about that on the set. You said,
how come she just shows up? How can she just said?

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
You asked me like, yeah, I'm sure I did, And
you're like, I don't know, Jo, It's in the script.
If you had a question about it, you should have
called the writer five days agout.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Yeah, I would have loved to have see her just
like pop up in a window. What are you guys
doing here? Yeah? It was, but it was a good
It was like it was Hailey's dangerous mind moment. You know,
she's got her leather jacket on. My god, teacher had.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
On totally was dangerous minds light. Yeah, no, it was fun.
I mean we had we had a good time. It
was fun working with all those kids. And yeah, I
mean you always made it so easy, Paul, and just
everything that you were just saying is so true. You
know it is. It's a family and that's what we created.

(01:01:35):
And it was a safe space for us as a
family to do so many things and experiment with so
many things. And yeah, thank you for being so magical
and whimsical and curious. You've really kept your curiosity. It's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
And so I had that conversation with Quinn the other day.
I was like, I said, the only thing I hope
for you is to never lose your curiosity. I said,
people who are curious are so interesting and so fun
to be around. And that's what I said. Remember the
conversation we had.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yes, what does he think about? Has he ever watched
one trio?

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
He's never watched it. But one time when he was
feeling I think it was like nine or maybe ten
years old, we were somewhere and somebody recognized me and
Quinn said, do you want me to take the picture?
Do you want me to take the picture? My dad
was Dan Scott on one trial do you want me to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Take the picture?

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
And I'm like, going, honey, it sounds like you're very
proud of me, and he goes, He goes, well, I've
never seen the show, dad, you know that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
I'm like, okay, that's very.

Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
Quinn is the most interesting, bizarre, as Joy will.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Tell you, and the best. Well when when your dad
is like an iconic bad guy. I feel like your
son and my children probably have a lot in common.
Before people feel in ownership over you, but also in
antagonism when they see you in public. And so as
a child, especially like my kid, your kid entering their

(01:03:00):
teenage years. For a teenage boy to have this like
bad dad, it's kind of it's kind of great, like
because they get to have some swagger walking into middle
school and high school, like, you know, my dad will
kick your ass right like you know that I come
from dangerous stock. There's a there's an allure to it.
I hope he utilizes that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Well, we'll see. He's a he's a he's a very
unique person. You know, he has all kinds of superpowers
because who he is. But he's also got some interesting
challenges in his life, you know, so I find it
to be I don't know what you guys think, but
you know, raising a kid nowadays, I'm terrified that I'm
not up to how fast things are changing. And I'm trying,

(01:03:46):
but I'm more terrified that I'm not up for it
than they are, that I'm not able to learn and
grow and evolve and understand what the challenges they're going
to be facing. Is. So the One Tree Hill world
that we grew up in, which was even a televised
television version of a world, is almost like the nineteen twenties.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Oh my god, they're going through.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
And my son said, Dad, do you know that we're
close that the nineteen seventies was as close to the
nineteen twenties as we are to two thousand, as in
ninety seventy and twenty two four?

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
And I went, what the nineties are the best?

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Rude the nineteen seventies or as close to the nineteen
twenties as twenty twenty four as to the nineteen seventies.
So think about that, you were born when the nineteen
twenties people were like the Great Depression. Yeah too, and
as you as your kids are to you know, nineteen
seventies to twenty twenties.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
It's like, Wow, it's shocking. Yeah, no, it hurts. And
I remedy that by only letting my child have a
flip phone, Paul, and it alleviates so much bullshit. I'm like,
you're allowed to have nineties technology.

Speaker 7 (01:04:56):
Friend, Here you go the way to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Okay, we have a fan question. Here we go. If
you had only one hour to spend in tree Hill
and you have two options here, would you rather hit
the night out on the town with Deb or have
an insightful conversation with Karen in her cafe?

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Unfair the guests, and I love them. I think my
favorite time is with Deb were when we were worrying
each other, like the War of the Roses.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Yes, yeah, so, and and I do.

Speaker 3 (01:05:43):
Love I do think there was chemistry with both characters.
I do love the intimacy, and I mean, honestly, the
weird part about working with Moira was that her her
her emotions were so palpable, and then I felt hatred
towards me. I tried to be smug and I tried

(01:06:09):
to be like, well, she's just doing this because she
really loves me. Because I have to justify these behaviors. Right,
So as a character, I'm going, well, this is the
only reason she's doing this because she still cares about me.
That's she'd be talking to me like.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
This if she didn't get me, right, if she Yeah, it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Works better for the character. If she didn't care about me,
she wouldn't care. She cares so much she's showing me
her hatred, which means she's actually still in love with me.
And that's how I would.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Play it, which is.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
Right. That's got to make her din't matter, which is
good for the character. For the show. With deb I
didn't have to go there because it was more like,
I don't want to say this in a bad way,
but sort of like foreplay.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Yeah, that's it. I never got the sense of the
dev hated Dan. I always thought it was a version
of like crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
So there, the energies are very very interesting, but so different.

Speaker 5 (01:07:05):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Yeah, I don't like feelings, so I'm probably gonna go
with the going out option, like I want to be
I want to be out. And we've seen how tree
Hill can party. We've done bachelorette parties and limos and
and what else have we done in tree Hill? Riverboats? Yeah,
it's a party towntown.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
It is apparently there's crazy college parties. I'd go out
with Deb too, I'd go I mean, Deb, is are
you kidding me? Deb's got people in catsuits climbing on billboards.
I'm going with Deb.

Speaker 5 (01:07:37):
She did.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Karen though I directed that episode, I know, but.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
She had convinced Karen ticket you know what I mean.
Karen's great. I mean, I love it. I love a
good conversation, but I have a lot of those in
my life. I need. I need more like nights out,
people dragging me out, doing fun stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Less feelings, more fun. Now you're coming to the dark side.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
So listen, what's our honorable mention for this episode? What
was something that really stood out to you and felt meaningful?
Were nice?

Speaker 6 (01:08:10):
Well?

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
What about you? What about your the in the in
the coda, that incredible moment you have there. I thought
that was kind of beautiful, you know, with your artwork
and your you know again moment right that. I thought
that was even very well and poignant.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Yeah, I thank you. I I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved, loved,
love loved Sam and Jack and their little first kiss
and the build up to it the awkwardness of it.
I wish when we had been playing teenagers we had
had more awkward kisses because we were expected to be

(01:08:53):
very like practiced and sexy and experienced, and these kids
actually resemble teenagers, and there just their weirdness and what
they say to each other. And then when she doesn't
leave for l a and she comes back and sees
her with the diner and says so about that kiss,
and he goes, yeah, this is awkward, Like they just

(01:09:15):
absolutely don't know the right thing to say.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
And you building the tower of creamers. That had to
be your idea.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Paul greg was also in a Kelsey's mom was on
this set, which is nice.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
That was Ashley's mom.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Sorry, yeah, she was on the set, And I think
that really made it nice because you have, you know,
the support and you know the you know, having her
sit right next to me in the whole thing and
having that guidance from you know, the mother and all
that's nice. I don't know, just get made it though.
That was so cute. He's a good actress.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Yeah, he's done okay for himself and having Peters is fine.
He's doing right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
My honorable mention goes to your your long lenses is man.
They it sucked me into the storyline. It really did.
Like I always feel like there's something it's more intimate
when you are when I'm watching something on a long lens.
And the fact that you used it to actually make
some of the storylines that didn't make sense to make
them work better really impressive super long lens.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
Don't forget Orn's song was fantastic in the episode.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
That's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
I love that song. I think it was a great,
great piece of music they chose for it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Yeah, yeah, well should we spin a wheel. Let's spin
the wheel, all right, Paul? We do our most likely too.
You're familiar, are you our most frequent guest?

Speaker 6 (01:10:47):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
Oh? Hey, now who is most likely to date someone
fifteen years younger than them? Paul Johnson?

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
I love this is what the Google random thing pulled
up the day you're on our show.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
Yeah. Why would the wheel ask that today?

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
Yeah? I mean I think I would say who's the
most random? Who's the most likely to do that?

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
You have to pick a real life one, and then
a character, and.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Then a character.

Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
Well, Whitey doesn't have much of a choice.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
That's what I was gonna say. I was like, why's
like flaing? Like what teacher at Tree Hill High after
Camilla died? Did he have a non committed romp with
in a lot?

Speaker 6 (01:11:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
I would have loved it. I would have loved it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
No one could know about this.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
Uh and what about h Lewis in real life?

Speaker 6 (01:11:44):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
How much older than us are you? You played like
our dads. But because my parents really thought I was
gonna date you during the pilot, they were just like, Hillary,
don't do it. Don't like, what are you talking about.
They're like, we see the way you two laugh.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
We see like.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
Saw you on your MTV show and you just charmed
everybody you or everybody loves you. It could be even
the camera guys loved you. They would It's like you
were so you were a magnet in.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
A different world. Did we date in a different world?

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
Because I want to be friends with Jeffrey, I want
to know that's it?

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
Well, I mean he he says he wouldn't have dated
me if he had been on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
He never calls me. I want to work with him.
I want to hire your husband for everything.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Well, come to Boston. He's filming with zombies right now
and the other night he had people leaning out of
the window telling him not to do any of the
drugs and whatever town they're shooting it because there's Fennel
in it. And I'm like, Jeffrey, where are you right now?
Go on now, listen. I like an age gap. I
can endorse an age gap. And I know a lot

(01:12:57):
of people look down their nose at it, but I
like an age gap, and I'm going to stand by
that decision. Mine's seventeen to it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:07):
Everybody's consenting, and everybody's legal what it is. But love
is a very peculiar thing because in my life I've
been lonely and I've been with people who were you know,
you know, I don't know that. I thought we're filling
holes in my life. And then I've been with people
that that never could fill a hole in my life.

(01:13:27):
And then it's kind of like, I don't know. When
you find your person and they're you know, have their
own lives and themselves and are doing things and they
bring joy to you and you're healthy for each other,
you find a way. Because love is freaking hard. Age
gap or no age, love is hard, man.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
Yeah, do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
It's it's work.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
I like a settled person that's like, this is what
I am. Yeah, let me get it. You know that
was a feeling because our lives are so frantic all
the time.

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
Yeah, at some point, the age, the number of the
age just doesn't become a factor if the person is
the right if it's the right match, if your baggage
match matches.

Speaker 6 (01:14:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
Well, there's a lot of a lot of strong opinions
out there, and you know, we can't you can't control
you know, how people feel about things. You can just
live a good life and hopefully they'll see your good
is it?

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
Anytime? There are those like BuzzFeed articles where they're like
age gaps ooh yuck. I'm like, oh no, are they
gonna put us in it?

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
And sometimes they do and it's okay because you know,
you know, everything's cool. I like Whitey having a having
a dalliance. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
Yeah, we missed that storyline.

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):
You remember, Ashley's mom on the show was played by
Sean Young.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Yeah, that's right. Later she came back.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Was that Ashley. No, that wasn't Ashley's mom, that was
Abby's mom. The character Abby was played Bob.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
That's right. In school that was yes, earlier on you
know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Yeah, what was Abby? The Alison scambody Skaggliotti Skaggliotti. Yeah,
Alison Scagliotti's mom was Sean Young.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Yeah. Did you kiss her? Why do he could have
kissed her?

Speaker 6 (01:15:22):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
Yeah? She was crazy?

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
Though, You're right, she was crazy?

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
Was it our character crazy?

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Was she not?

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
I missed it? I forgot guys. If it's not, if
I haven't seen it, read it, heard it within the
last like two months, it's I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
It's apple sauce.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
Okay, Friends, next episode, Season six, episode twenty. I would
for you. I would thanks for coming, Paul, thanks for
coming on the show and talking with us. Always a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
You're the best, Honey, You're the best.

Speaker 3 (01:15:53):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
I miss you too. Give love to that boy.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Oh yeah yeah, us to New York.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
Join us.

Speaker 8 (01:16:03):
Happy birthday, quin the y We we used the I
from the birth wim Happy b Day and threw the
rest of it out day and he goes down, you
missed still birthday and you can catch it and he goes.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
I guess.

Speaker 6 (01:16:17):
I did it?

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
Incredible, all right, buddy. We love you so much. Thank
you have you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
Bye everybody. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave
us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram
at Drama Queens O t H.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
Or email us at Drama Queens at iHeartRadio dot com.
See you next time. We all about that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
High school drama. Girl, Drama Girl, all about them high
school queens. We'll take you for a ride at our
comic girl cheering for the right team. Drama Queens up
girl Fashion, but your tough girl.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
You could sit with us.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
Girl Drama, Queens, Drama, Queense Drama, Queens Drama, Drama, Queens Drama,
Queens