November 2, 2023 • 42 mins
Two visionary CEOs reveal their strategies for trailblazing change in business and in life.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to season two of the Future Legends
of Advertising podcast on iHeart, featuring the hottest up and
coming stars in advertising, as well as the biggest legends
in the game.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In this series, we explore the future of the advertising
industry through never before heard conversations between those who created
it and those who are shaping its future.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're your hosts, Hailey Romer and Ross Martin.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Now let's meet the legends.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm so excited to welcome a fantastic new guest to
this episode, someone who I've never met. This is my
first time meeting her. It's Morgan Debond. She is the
founder and CEO of Blavity, and I've been waiting for
this episode for a while. You know, when Haley and
I started splitting our episodes this season, I said I
want the one with Morgan and should be fought over it.
(01:02):
I won that one, So I would like to welcome
you to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Morgan Demonk.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Thanks Ross, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I know a lot of people already know this, but
to repeat for anyone who doesn't know, Morgan is a
total trailblazer and entrepreneur, an investor and advisor, she's the
founder and CEO of Blavity, which builds solutions for black
and multicultural audiences and enterprises who want to reach them.
Blavity itself has gotten quite large. It's a huge player
(01:30):
and very significant in our industry. There's Blavity Media Group,
there's Blavity three sixty, there's the Talent and Fusion Team,
and then there's afro Tech, which is the largest tech
conference in the world for black founders and innovators. Several
people from my company known go to afro Tech every year. So, Morgan,
(01:50):
I don't really know where to begin with you except
to say, first and foremost congratulations on being inducted into
the twenty twenty three Advertising Hall of Achievement.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
How does it feel, Thank you? It feels great. It's
a tough process, so you know, it's it's definitely an
honor to be amongst so many incredible people and so
many people that I've looked up to along the way.
I didn't start off in advertising, I didn't start off
in marketing.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
And so it's a beautiful kind of three sixty moment
for me.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, it's a very interesting award the Hall of Achievement
because for those who aren't familiar. It only goes to
seven people a year. There's only about two hundred and
thirty or two hundred and forty people in it total.
And it's a very personal award. I mean, I know
you're a very generous person who always deflects and tries
to give credit to the team for everything, and I
know you have a great team. You never would have
gotten here if you didn't. But this award is like
(02:42):
uniquely personal. Right does that feel? It feels different?
Speaker 7 (02:44):
Right?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
It is uniquely personal.
Speaker 6 (02:46):
I mean the pitch materials, I'm like, this is we're
really pitching me here.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Well, look, I'm not allowed to tell you what happened
in the room when we were voting and discussing everybody
and there are a lot of them and candidates this year,
but your first ballot Hall of Achiever, and that means something.
It means that what you've done here is undeniable and
your impact on advertising and on culture is very real.
So I hope you're you're proud of that, and hope
(03:13):
your family's proud of you and everything like that.
Speaker 6 (03:15):
I called my dad and my mom when I got it,
and I said.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
You guys, getting into the Hall of achievement, and they
were like, Okay, you gotta send us the documents because like,
we don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 6 (03:26):
I know, I promise you I would never call you.
I never called them for awards, you know, but this one,
this one gets a phone call and Ross, I don't
know if they told you, but I'm nine months pregnant.
So I also was really nervous because I was like,
oh man, you know, am I gonna be able to go?
Speaker 5 (03:45):
You know, baby comes early, maybe we can swing it.
You know.
Speaker 6 (03:48):
It's it was a very emotional process as well, because
I was hesitant to, you know, apply when I got
a lot going on.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Well, I think that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We should get into that in this episode around how
you've been family and career, because you're right in the
heart of both things.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
And I would I would argue that your baby is.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Going to be your biggest achievement, maybe not your your
advertising STU.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
I think my baby will be my best creative project
yet for sure.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
There you go, There you go.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So this is going to be an interesting episode because
we're about to be joined by an absolute icon. I mean,
Bruce Gordon is a total legend. He was a first
ballot Hall of Famer back in two thousand and seven,
And when we told you we were pairing with him
with you on this episode, what was your first reaction
to that?
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Oh, we're about to get serious here.
Speaker 6 (04:35):
You know, there's a lot going on between our two
generations and in terms of changes and hopes and aspirations
that I think his generation laid the foundation for that.
You know, we're still trying to push through, you know,
as it relates to holding an enterprises accountable, as relates
to civic engagement. So yeah, I'm excited to chat with
(04:57):
Bruce today.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, without further ado, let me introduce the man, the myth,
and the legend, Bruce Gordon. There's a lot you could
say about his career former president and CEO of the
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People the NAACP,
obviously one of the most important institutions in the country,
but also his career itself at Verizon legendary. He was
(05:20):
there for thirty five years, led the twenty three billion
dollar consumer and small business unit, and also directed corporate
advertising and brand management. He managed thirty five thousand people
in his workforce worldwide, and then the career itself was honored,
as I said, in two thousand and seven first ballot
Advertising Hall of Fame from the American Advertising Federation, but
(05:43):
a whole list of other acknowledgments and rewards for him.
In two thousand and six, Ebony Magazine named him one
of its one hundred most influential Black Americans and organizational Leaders.
Twenty twenty two ranked number six on Fortune's list of
the fifty most Powerful Black executives, and then Black Enterprise
named him nineteen ninety eight Executive of the Year. Today
(06:06):
he consults for a whole broad range of Fortune five
hundred companies who need him, and this industry is better
for him. Bruce Gordon, welcome.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
To the pod.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
Thank you, Ross, and thank you for whoever made the
decision to pair me with Morgan. She made the reference
to our respective generations, and I will tell you that
for an old guy like me, my peers and I
oftentimes say who's coming that's going to continue the journey
and continue the fight and make the difference. And Morgan
(06:38):
is just that person. She certainly should have been a
first ballot selection because their credentials just have earned earth
that honor. So it's my good fortune to be sharing
this podcast with her.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Wow, well that's very special. I'm glad we got this
one right. What if you didn't like each other at all,
that would be all right, So we got that out
of the way. That somehow you know each other. I
think because as I said earlier, you both serve on
the Black Economic Alliance. You've met and you've worked together before.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Is that right.
Speaker 7 (07:13):
We're both members of the advisory board. I was actually
a founding board member, so I was on the board
of directors. But you know, our work causes us to collaborate.
But I've not spent this kind of quality time with Morgan.
So that's another real benefit of this podcast.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
What is that organization?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
If I can ask you, Morgan, what is the Black
Economic Alliance and why are you part of it?
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (07:39):
Black Economic Alliance we call it BEA for short, is
I think at this point the largest black pack that
is advocating for the advancement of black folks through economic
policies and a bipartisan we support policies, candidates and also
(08:00):
citic engagement. There's a five O one C three five
its one C four and a foundation and so they
do a number of things. You know, they're active behind
the scenes on the hill, they're active with philanthropy and
getting my generation to understand how collective donations can work
to move our agenda forward, which is very new and
(08:21):
not something that we all do or talk about. Which
is one of the things that I'm really passionate about
and I work with the team on, is how to
engage millennials gen Z who maybe feel like politics is
out of reach and that these things don't affect us
and we don't have much power, and it's actually it's
not the case. And bea in a very short period
(08:42):
of time has had a huge influence on our political
system and politicians donations, et cetera. So it's been a
learning experience for me being in a different world, still
doing my job, but in a different place, and just
being around so many incredible black executives.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
At the same time, a.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Lot of people talk about YouTube as trailblazers. When someone
says you're a trailblazer, a pioneer, do you like being
called that? What does that even mean to you? Do
you feel that way about yourselves?
Speaker 7 (09:12):
I can't tell you that I set out to be
a trailblazer. I just set out to do good things
you know, I was a product of the of the sixties,
so I came of age and my thinking was shaped
by what was going.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
On in the world.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
So this is the Vietnam War, the civil rights movement,
that was that was my surround, and it became evident
to me as a young man that if the quality
of life for black folks in America was going to
get better, and it certainly needed to that that required engagement.
(09:51):
So when I went to work at the Bell System,
I didn't go there to be a telecommunications expert, and
I had no expertise and to terms of marketing or
sales or whatever. I went there to be a change agent.
So change agency has been sort of at the core
(10:11):
of everything that I've done since then. As it turned out,
marketing to me is another platform for change agency, and
particularly in my industry, which had been a monopoly when
I started and became a fully competitive sector when I finished.
(10:33):
So change is what drives me. And if that ends
up doing some trailblazing along the way, that's all well
and good, but that was never the mission. Change agency.
Making things better was what inspired me.
Speaker 6 (10:48):
I agree with Bruce, like I didn't set out to
win awards or have milestones and things of that nature.
I actually started my career in Silicon Valley thinking that
technology would be the fastest way to make impact. You know,
you can have Wi Fi and get access to an
entire world of free information, whereas prior generations didn't have that.
You had to go to library and use I don't
(11:09):
know what people were doing to find out books, lots
of books, you know. But so I moved to Silicon
Valley and wanted to be around the most innovative people,
be around the biggest companies in the world, and unfortunately
realized that that was also a space that was not
set up for us. That wasn't actually set up for
the most innovative people in the world. It wasn't set
(11:32):
up for change and progress for the little guy. It
was set up to just reinforce capitalism in many different ways,
or get a piece takeover capitalism and shift the industry
towards technology. And so that became very frustrating to me
and for Blavity. When we first started to build it,
it was about, Okay, we're going to use this tool,
(11:55):
the Internet, to build our own power systems and infrastructure,
and then if we're really successful at amassing large amounts
of consumers in one place, then we're going to have.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
The power because people can't help. But look at us.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
I'm sure there's so many people who would have loved
to ignore me, would have loved to ignore Blavity, would
have loved to ignore Afrotech. But once you actually have
the people behind you, you can you can't ignore it.
And I think that's what Bruce's generation taught us. It's like,
if you have the people on your side, you know,
I think about the grassroots campaigns that we're done. I mean,
(12:33):
we don't do grassroots campaigns in the same way anymore,
but we do on the internet, right, And it's like,
if you're really noisy, and black folks are the noisiest
people on the internet, you know you have to pay attention.
We set so many trends, so I knew we had
that power opportunity and needed to figure out how to
build to get there. And now there's an immense amount
(12:55):
of responsibility where it's like, Okay, now we are pushing
industry forward. We are in conversations at the most senior
levels of CEOs. You know, I'm an advisory groups with
a variety of different corporations on the politics side, technology companies,
and so now we're at an interesting point. I'm an
(13:16):
interesting point in my career where I am still CEO
by day, but by night I have a lot of
other responsibilities. And so actually that would be my question
to you, Bruce, which is like, how did you how
did you manage your day job as an executive and
leader of people with also the responsibilities that were really
(13:38):
not really a part of your job description. And you know,
what advice would you give me as I kind of
get into that territory.
Speaker 7 (13:45):
That's a great question. I think that because I had
such clarity about my purpose, which I want to actually
come back and reverse the question to you, it was
easy to sort of stay on a track. And my purpose,
as I said earlier, really was to be a change
(14:06):
agent to open doors that were not open to us
as black folks, to get organization, the organization the company.
Because I wanted to be a change agent inside of
corporate America. So I seized every opportunity that presented itself,
sometimes not as selectively maybe as I should have been,
(14:28):
but I just seized every opportunity that surfaced and pursued
it aggressively and I found that that was not limited
to the workplace. There became some natural extensions. I also
found that because there were so few of us. Keep
in mind, I started my career in nineteen sixty eight.
(14:49):
The world looked very different then. And just to give
you a statistic, Bello, Pennsylvania, the company where I started,
had thirty three thousand employees, and of those thirty three
thousand employees, there were six hundred who were middle management
and above. There was one African American and no women.
(15:11):
So I mean, just you know, oh my gosh. So
there was abundance of opportunity to bring about change. So
because I was so singularly focused, I found whether it
was during the day in the office or doing the
evening informally collaborating with the few of us who were
(15:33):
on a similar trajectory, it didn't really require management. It
required finding the opportunities to get some sleep. But the
need and the opportunities to engage and push for change
were unlimited. So I I just tried to do everything
(15:54):
I could anywhere that I could, and I stayed grounded
based upon my purpose. It's clear to me you should
tell me whether I'm missing something here, But it's clear
to me that you're a woman of purpose. You know,
you fame and fortune was was, was not and is
not what drives you. And it appears to me that
(16:16):
that's that's been the case, and that that makes life's
not simple, but it makes it at least kind of clear,
right in terms of what you do and what you
don't do. I'm curious as to where that came from.
How did you identify that purpose? What what makes you
this this special woman who is not driven by wealth
(16:39):
creation and you know, headlines and you're just you're just
trying to do good.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Why.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think it really stems
from my upbringing. You know, I'm from Saint Louis, Missouri,
so I grew up in a state that was, you know,
flyover state more or less. And my parents are both
from Saint Louis. My dad's a sickle cell disease doctors,
so I grew up around in a research doctor as well.
(17:08):
So I grew up around my family always advocating for others,
always advocating for equity in the healthcare system, always advocating
for equity and patient care for black children, who are
more often than not the ones in this country who
have sickle cell disease, and he wanted me to be
a doctor. I did not want to be a doctor,
(17:31):
but I said, you know what, maybe I'll be a
I'll run the hospital like I like business. And when
I first got to college, that was my first minor
was a healthcare management minor major in business.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
And I started off in the.
Speaker 6 (17:45):
B school and I realized very I went to Washington
University in Saint Louis. I know, shout outs to Ross
Go Bears, which no one says because we're D three.
And I quickly realized being in the business school, actually
that these are not my people. You know, everybody in
the B school was being trained to be management consultants.
(18:08):
That was the thing at the time. You know, work
at Deloitte, work at bcg or Go, work corporate at Target, Wells, Fargo,
General Mills, et cetera. And it was very much a
pipeline and I could tell my first semester, this isn't
going to work for me, like I'm not, this is
not I'm not a pipeline person. So I switched to
(18:30):
arts and sciences very quickly, and I think that was
the first time when I really made a decision for
myself that I am going to be someone who doesn't
follow the pathways and I'm going to really seek out
learning and knowledge and it'll work itself out if I
am good at what I do and I spend time
(18:52):
with people and get to know people. I ran for
student body president and was very active on campus. I
won student body president and just com just run you
know I want, and so I was just really active.
I was on the board of trustees as a sophomore,
and I think that was the beginning of my self
affirmation that there are things more important than the pursuit
(19:14):
of this check mark or this entry level salary. And
I think I do aspire to be wealthy. I spent
a lot of time actually trying to be wealthy and
not rich, meaning I have more ownership.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
Of my time. And I take that very seriously.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
To your point, you know, I'm not walking around in Gucci,
but I will absolutely pay for Uber Black. So it's
a delicate balance. And I think that Blavity Inc. As
a company, as we've grown, there's been many opportunities for
us to take, you know, advertising deals with clients for
campaigns that we don't feel good about and we've said no.
(19:56):
And again in early days, I got a lot of flak.
I was called very diff dificult by many clients. Would
get phone calls from my black girlfriends who worked at
the companies and say they're not going to prove this.
They don't want to work with you, you know, and
I'm like, yeah, because I'm going to hold them accountable
to the ads that they're putting to the display photos.
You know, we would get ad campaigns. It's a lot
(20:19):
better today than it was seven years ago. Blavitie's nine
years old. We would get display advertisements where the images
are white hands and white faces, and I would say,
do you have any other ad creative? Like can we
This isn't going to convert. We're held accountable to click
through rates, We're held accountable to conversion, and you're going
(20:41):
to say we're not converting, and I'm going to say
you're at creative is bad, right, And so that's where
I started. Now where we are now is that we'll
say we'll do the ad creative for you.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
You know, if you don't have it, we'll do it right.
But there was a lot of tension and conflict in
terms of the challenges between making money, making revenue for
the business and doing something that I thought would make
sense in the long term for our community, our audience,
and ultimately where I wanted Blavity to go.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Well, let's talk about progress. You've both made a lot
of progress.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
You've achieved quite a bit in your careers, and as
you say, Morgan, it's a lot better today than it was.
Sure you two have worked with and continue to work with,
some of the biggest companies in the world. When I
worked at Paramount, which was ten thousand people at the time,
I never felt like I belonged. I never felt like
I was making enough progress. I always felt alone, and
(21:37):
I had a lot of trouble measuring the impact and
the success of the work that I was doing. And
I'm wondering for our listeners, did you both feel that way?
Do you still maybe sometimes feel that way? I meane, Bruce,
for you, not just Verizon, but you've been on the
boards of some of the biggest companies in the world, ADT,
Northrop Grumman, Ticho International Office, Depot, Infinity Broadcast. I mean you,
(21:58):
Alvin Ailey, You've You've been in a lot of huge
corporations trying to affect change. And then Morgan, you still
today work with some of the biggest companies in the
world American Airlines, PepsiCo, et cetera. How do you, guys
feel as you're doing this, Do you feel like you're
making progress or are there times where you're like, I
don't feel like anything I'm doing is having an impact.
Speaker 7 (22:18):
So I think that it's undeniable that there's been progress,
at least in my in my time frame, I've seen
plenty of progress, and it's worth celebrating. But you'll recall
that when Barack Obama found his way to the Oval office,
you heard this post racial uh terminology. You know, well,
(22:41):
now that there's a black president, I guess everything's okay,
which Morgan and I both know was far from the truth.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, because people felt right like, while we checked the box,
we did that.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Now we can go back to having white presidents again.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
Well, I mean it was Listen, it was a big deal.
Let's let's let's be clear about that. Having a black
man in the White House was a big deal. But
it didn't mean that it was all over and all
was well with the world. So let's be clear, progress, yes,
but much more to do without question, and we know
(23:15):
that I never wanted to belong, so to your point,
I never had this desire to fit in. I was
comfortable in my own skin, and I was pretty clear
headed about what my mission was and what it wasn't.
So I was kind of unpopular in some respects. I
(23:37):
know for a fact that there was a time in
my career where the senior executives in the marketing organization
were trying to fire me. I mean, I know that,
but that was kind of okay because that meant that
they were paying attention. That meant that I was making
them uncomfortable, and frankly, I liked making folks uncomfortable. And
in Morgan's example, you know, I learned a lot of
(23:59):
that from my parents. So that's some of my instincts
were a function of what I learned from my parents.
So I was never try I wasn't a joiner I
want to fit in. I was I want to make
a difference. Were there times when I really felt that
I was succeeding. Yes, were there times when I thought
I was banging my head against the wall. And one
(24:20):
of the second guests whether I was on the right path. Yes,
I'll tell you a quick story, because it really ties
into both being a social change agent and being a marketer.
I reached a point in my career where I was
a senior officer, but I was not a member of
the management committee, the top policy setting group, So if
(24:41):
I wanted to make something happen, I had to go
before that group and pitch them. And I was very
aggressive when I first got into this job, this particular job. Well,
to fast forward, the president of the company was retiring
and he invited people to come in for their last
coaching session, and I said, I'll take you on that.
And I went in and he said, here's what I've
(25:01):
observed about you, Bruce. He said, when you first got
into this marketing job, he said, you were full of
pisson vinegar, and you were in front of the medicine
committee at every meeting, pitching this and pitson that, trying
to shake us up. He said, But I noticed over
time that you stopped coming, and I have a feeling
(25:22):
that it was because you were losing more than you
were winning, and you became discouraged. And I'm here to
tell you that if you're a marketing guy, it's your
job description to make people uncomfortable. It's your job description
to come into the management committee and tell us to
do things, and you're not always going to win. Get
over yourself, but you better get back on that horse
(25:45):
and come back into that managed committee and be the
guy that you were a year ago. And that was
a hell of a lesson for me, because he was right.
I got disgusted with the fact that they weren't listening
to me and they weren't doing the things that I
thought they should do. And then I said, Okay, I
got it. I'm going to win some, I'm going to
lose some. But even when I lose, you know, get
(26:08):
back in there and fight to fight again. So that
was an important lesson in it I learned that whether
you're a civil rights activist trying to drive corporate policy
that is in the best interest of people of color
and women, do what you've got to do. You're going
to win some, you're going to lose some. But that
(26:29):
same characteristic and quality behavior is what marketers need to
because it's your job to make the company uncomfortable. It's
your job to bring the voice of the customer into
the boardroom. It's your job to push the company in
new directions, that's what you do. And I got real
comfortable with that, and it made a big difference in
(26:51):
how I proceeded and this desire to not fit in,
but to just do what makes sense and what's right.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the challenges that
I have and with our generation is I feel like
our tolerance as a community and as a people has
gone down. I feel like we're not as when people
tell us no, it can rattle so many feathers, you know,
And I just I see so much chatter online every day,
even in my own employees, where there's an entitlement to
(27:21):
an easy yes, and it can be frustrating for me
at times, you know, where it's like it's okay that
we pissed somebody off, Like it's okay, like everyone's walking
on eggshells.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
I was like, oh, well, you know we're gonna lose
this deal.
Speaker 6 (27:37):
I'm like, it's okay if we lose this deal because
we said something that we really all felt and meant,
you know that we didn't like this campaign or we
didn't like this RFP and we don't we don't think
that it's the right strategy, you know, or even on
the news side. There's just so much change with how
the Internet is impacting media companies right now, where we
(28:00):
are fighting every day to not get defunded for political
news coverage, you know. Keyword ad blocking is one of
the issues that I talk about often because what happens
is that we have these big corporations who want brand safety,
and it trickles down all the way to the bottom
(28:21):
of the totem pole, and so we wind up with
lists of two thousand to five thousand words that our
articles can't have. So, for example, shoot, So if we
have an article that's talking about a photo shoot and
we're a black site, that article gets blocked because it's
run by an algorithm, right and we're talking about fashion week,
(28:43):
we're not talking about violence, and we have to fight
every single day for those impressions. And to the point
where my team's just like, let's just we're just give
us the list. We're just not going to use these words, and.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
I'm like, no, because the list will only get longer.
The list will only get longer.
Speaker 6 (29:02):
And that's just an example one of the challenges that
we face every single day where I feel like we're
losing the battle a little bit.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, so So, Morgan, this is really a question for
you both. What does it mean that the American Advertising
Federation is inducting the founder and CEO of Blavity this year? Like,
what does that say to the industry that you were chosen?
Because there's a lot of people we looked at like,
but it was I'm telling you in the room you
(29:31):
were a no brainer. Like people were like, oh, Morgan, yeah,
it's time, let's.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Go, let's do this. But what does that say that
you're in?
Speaker 6 (29:38):
I mean, I hope it says that when I post
on LinkedIn, everybody won't side text me like are you
sure about this post? And I'm like, yes, I'm sure
that people need to know about these issues. But yeah,
I don't know, Ross, I mean TBD, Like, I'm open
to the experience. I'm not going to change who I am.
So I hope it means I have a few more
people backing me up in rooms I'm not in.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
You know, well, Bruce, you you look at ed Morgan,
you said in the beginning of the conversation as really
important to the future of our industry in business and culture.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
What does it say to you that she was chosen
this year? What does that mean, what does that signal
to the industry.
Speaker 7 (30:12):
Keep in mind, my my perspective about the industry is
that Madison Avenue was one of the final frontiers in
terms of making progress with diversity. It was it was
it was a white man's world, and our presence was
virtually zero, and the only black folks that you found
(30:33):
in advertising were the ones who had multicultural firms. So
diversity just was not there. It's certainly gotten better, But
and what does it say about Morgan? It says, listen, this,
this woman is doing amazing things. She's a young woman,
so she's not even partners the sports metaphors here, she's
(30:56):
she's still in the first half, right, she's she has
she's not in the locker when getting ready for second
She's still in the first half, and she's winning. Of course,
she should be singled out and recognized for her exceptional accomplishments.
And she happens to be a woman of color. But
she's a competent professional and that's why she's there. So
(31:20):
I won't say it's a color blind decision, but the
fact that this decision has been made and she is
an inductee says a lot about the progress that's been
made in this particular space where progress has been slow coming.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
I couldn't agree more with you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Bruce, and a lot of people talk about the Advertising
Hall of Achievement as the halfway mark in your career.
I feel like that's true with you Morgan. There's a
lot to come. If you both could, if you could
each snap your fingers and change something about the advertising industry,
what would you change?
Speaker 5 (31:58):
I gotta pause on that one. That's a good question. Yeah,
if I could only change one.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Thing, it would just be maybe the first thing you
would change. Where would you start? What would you start with?
Speaker 6 (32:07):
Trying to think about the thing that would make the
most impact, which would mean I'd have to pick the
thing that it's the most painful. What's the biggest pain point?
I think this need for efficiency is really challenging, you know.
I respect that advertising agencies are also businesses and everyone's
(32:29):
having a tough time with how things are being automated.
But the need for efficiency I think at times reduces
the human element that made marketing and advertising campaigns so
potentially impactful for change and storytelling some impactful for change.
And I see more and more people trying to pick
(32:50):
the most efficient route not necessarily the most impactful route,
and I think I would try to help change the
corporation's request of the agencies to say, we want, yes,
some efficiency, but we want the most impact, and we're
willing to work a little slower, give people a little
(33:12):
more creativity in some space, and we're not scared of
a little chatter on social media for doing so.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
I'll probably be thinking about the best answer to your
question when this session is over and I'm laying in
bed the night's reflecting what happened this day. So I'll
just say this. When I was in a room at Horizon,
and we've had a stable of ad agencies, like many companies,
(33:39):
we had a multicultural agency. It was Barill Communications. You know,
Tom Burrell is a pioneer and a dear friend and
a Hall of Fame inductee, and Tom's agency did great
work well. We had a big branding campaign coming up
for the company, and I talked with the woman who
ran advertising on my team and we said, let's get
(34:04):
Burrell to compete for this campaign. It wasn't a multicultural campaign,
it was just a campaign. And we said, you know, why,
why is it that we would limit them to only
doing multicultural work. They're good, they do. They produce good creative.
If they can produce good creative, great creative and for
(34:28):
a multicultural campaign, then why can't they produce great creative
for a general market campaign. So let's give them the
opportunity to compete for this work. And we did, and
they did and they want. So I say that to
say I think that the talent base in our community
(34:53):
is so deep and so rich that I don't want
them to be under U. I don't want that community
to be put in a box and say, well, you're
good for multicultural work, loor good for all work, you know.
And it sounds a bit arrogant, maybe, but you know,
(35:13):
our attitude is anything you can do, I can do better, right,
So don't tell me I can't do that. Of course
I can give me the opportunity. So I just want,
and maybe sounds a bit naive. I want to be
more of an inclusive, color blind approach that says I
want the best talent I can get. I want the
(35:34):
best talent working on the best the most important assignments
I have, and I'm going to include everybody in that process.
So that's an example of progress that could be made,
but it's not the only example. And whether it's it's
number one on my list because it's the thought that
comes to mind Ross at the moment. But tonight I'll
(35:55):
think of ten other things that could be number one.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I appreciate that we'll have you back on the I
guess too. I mean, I have if up to me,
I have you on every episode. But what you just said, Bruce,
is something that a friend of mine's someone I learned
from a lot who leads one of the very few
black owned agencies in this country, which is Joe Anthony
at Hero Media. He has been so loud on this
(36:18):
issue that you just raised, which is, why are you
only fucking sending me multicultural opportunities? Why are you only
rfping me on quote African American campaigns or urban urban RFPs.
Why are you not letting me participate or even thinking
of us in general market?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Which is it's absurd.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
To think that that's happening in twenty twenty three, but
it is, and that is a that's a huge problem
because it just means that we're not getting the best advertising.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
That's what it means.
Speaker 7 (36:52):
Yes, yeah, And at the end of the day, this
is an oversimplification, and I know it. You know, in
the agency portfolio of skill sets, you obviously have to
have good quant people, you have to have good strategy people,
you have to have good account management people. But over simplicitly, ultimately,
the creative has got to be good, right, You've got
(37:14):
to produce good creative And if you limit the people
who are coming to you to present creative, then you're
not going to get the best word to get there right, period, period,
end the story. So and you know, more goan to
kind of shift a bit. You know, So you've got
this millennial talking to a baby boomer, right, so we're
(37:38):
there are generations between us. I happen to have a
forty five year old son. I'm a I'm a granddad,
and you know, people you know look at me and say,
you know, you've had a great career, You've done a
lot of wonderful things, and what advice do you have?
And I sometimes say, when I'm looking at a person
as young as Morgan, I say, you know, I'm the
(37:59):
one who's to be asking that question. You know, I
look at my generation and I try to stay current,
but you know, I raised my son trying to teach him.
But my son's doing a lot of teaching to his
dad these days because he sees the world that I
don't see quite through the same lens. And I wonder, Morgan, sometimes,
(38:22):
as you look to my generation, what is it that
your generation wants to make sure we get. Yeah, so
that's where maybe called on to provide guidance or support
or advice. We're doing it with a really solid appreciation
and understanding of the world in which you were operating.
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Yeah, I have an abundance mindset in so many different ways,
and I think the generation behind me has that as well.
You know, when I hear you all talk about the
numbers and the data of you know, thirty three thousand employees,
six hundred of management.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
No women, you know, I'm like, oh, man, Like.
Speaker 6 (39:04):
I would take myself out the game at that point.
But we are the new majority now, right, So like
black and multicultural is the new majority. So we're not
actually a minority anymore. And we I think we'll all
walk around like we're still minorities and it's just not
(39:26):
the case. So it was the case, but it is not.
These babies are coming out. You know, my baby will
be here, He will be a part of the majority.
So that changes everything because literally, statistically speaking, we are like,
so far away are the corporations, our policies, our mindset
(39:48):
is so far away from the reality that is literally
already here. They're just in elementary school right now. And
so to me, when I think about Hero Collector, I
think about you know, Walter Isaacson and Aaron's team. I
think about Barrell. I'm like, oh, man, if y'all can
just hold on for like ten more years, you should
(40:10):
be the biggest and the baddest because you are going
to know more about the majority than these big agencies.
You know, you'll probably get acquired, you know. But that
is what I think. And also that's how I think
about blavity, right It's like, when I first started, we
were a minority. By the time I'm finished, we should
(40:30):
and could be the largest thing in the room because
we're actually servicing the a better representation of America and
the consumer. And I wish that more people of your
generation really stood with that confidence. But I think it's
because you all have fought so hard for even the
minority to get equal representation that the idea that we're
(40:53):
going to get even like more than fifty percent representation
feels really far fetched. But I'm like, I want half
stop with this two to three percent. How half I'm
want my Byron Allen. Like, you know, I respect a
lot of things that Byron has done because it has
forced people to say, like, we should have fair opportunity
(41:14):
regardless of these small percentages that you're allocating to this
bucket of people. Are these buckets of groups or companies.
So I'm grateful for those folks who have challenged the
system in a way that I can't quite yet.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Look, I learned a lot from every one of these episodes,
but this one in particular really moving, inspiring for someone
like me to listen to YouTube talk and be able
to honor the two of you with this.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So, Morgan Debond, Bruce Gordon, you're both legends. Thank you
so much for joining us. I don't know how we're
going to do a better episode than this one, but
we're going to try.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
I don't think it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Thank you both, and thanks everyone for listening to Future
Legends of Advertising.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Thanks Ross.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Well that does it for this episode of the Future
Legends of Advertise podcast on iHeart I'm Ross Martin.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And I'm Hailey Romer and thank you for listening. We'll
be back with another episode before you know it. And
for more information on the American Advertising Federation, go to
AAF dot org.
Hello, and welcome to season two of the Future Legends
of Advertising podcast on iHeart, featuring the hottest up and
coming stars in advertising, as well as the biggest legends
in the game.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In this series, we explore the future of the advertising
industry through never before heard conversations between those who created
it and those who are shaping its future.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're your hosts, Hailey Romer and Ross Martin.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Now let's meet the legends.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm so excited to welcome a fantastic new guest to
this episode, someone who I've never met. This is my
first time meeting her. It's Morgan Debond. She is the
founder and CEO of Blavity, and I've been waiting for
this episode for a while. You know, when Haley and
I started splitting our episodes this season, I said I
want the one with Morgan and should be fought over it.
(01:02):
I won that one, So I would like to welcome
you to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Morgan Demonk.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Thanks Ross, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I know a lot of people already know this, but
to repeat for anyone who doesn't know, Morgan is a
total trailblazer and entrepreneur, an investor and advisor, she's the
founder and CEO of Blavity, which builds solutions for black
and multicultural audiences and enterprises who want to reach them.
Blavity itself has gotten quite large. It's a huge player
(01:30):
and very significant in our industry. There's Blavity Media Group,
there's Blavity three sixty, there's the Talent and Fusion Team,
and then there's afro Tech, which is the largest tech
conference in the world for black founders and innovators. Several
people from my company known go to afro Tech every year. So, Morgan,
(01:50):
I don't really know where to begin with you except
to say, first and foremost congratulations on being inducted into
the twenty twenty three Advertising Hall of Achievement.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
How does it feel, Thank you? It feels great. It's
a tough process, so you know, it's it's definitely an
honor to be amongst so many incredible people and so
many people that I've looked up to along the way.
I didn't start off in advertising, I didn't start off
in marketing.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
And so it's a beautiful kind of three sixty moment
for me.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, it's a very interesting award the Hall of Achievement
because for those who aren't familiar. It only goes to
seven people a year. There's only about two hundred and
thirty or two hundred and forty people in it total.
And it's a very personal award. I mean, I know
you're a very generous person who always deflects and tries
to give credit to the team for everything, and I
know you have a great team. You never would have
gotten here if you didn't. But this award is like
(02:42):
uniquely personal. Right does that feel? It feels different?
Speaker 7 (02:44):
Right?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
It is uniquely personal.
Speaker 6 (02:46):
I mean the pitch materials, I'm like, this is we're
really pitching me here.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Well, look, I'm not allowed to tell you what happened
in the room when we were voting and discussing everybody
and there are a lot of them and candidates this year,
but your first ballot Hall of Achiever, and that means something.
It means that what you've done here is undeniable and
your impact on advertising and on culture is very real.
So I hope you're you're proud of that, and hope
(03:13):
your family's proud of you and everything like that.
Speaker 6 (03:15):
I called my dad and my mom when I got it,
and I said.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
You guys, getting into the Hall of achievement, and they
were like, Okay, you gotta send us the documents because like,
we don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 6 (03:26):
I know, I promise you I would never call you.
I never called them for awards, you know, but this one,
this one gets a phone call and Ross, I don't
know if they told you, but I'm nine months pregnant.
So I also was really nervous because I was like,
oh man, you know, am I gonna be able to go?
Speaker 5 (03:45):
You know, baby comes early, maybe we can swing it.
You know.
Speaker 6 (03:48):
It's it was a very emotional process as well, because
I was hesitant to, you know, apply when I got
a lot going on.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Well, I think that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We should get into that in this episode around how
you've been family and career, because you're right in the
heart of both things.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
And I would I would argue that your baby is.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Going to be your biggest achievement, maybe not your your
advertising STU.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
I think my baby will be my best creative project
yet for sure.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
There you go, There you go.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So this is going to be an interesting episode because
we're about to be joined by an absolute icon. I mean,
Bruce Gordon is a total legend. He was a first
ballot Hall of Famer back in two thousand and seven,
And when we told you we were pairing with him
with you on this episode, what was your first reaction
to that?
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Oh, we're about to get serious here.
Speaker 6 (04:35):
You know, there's a lot going on between our two
generations and in terms of changes and hopes and aspirations
that I think his generation laid the foundation for that.
You know, we're still trying to push through, you know,
as it relates to holding an enterprises accountable, as relates
to civic engagement. So yeah, I'm excited to chat with
(04:57):
Bruce today.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, without further ado, let me introduce the man, the myth,
and the legend, Bruce Gordon. There's a lot you could
say about his career former president and CEO of the
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People the NAACP,
obviously one of the most important institutions in the country,
but also his career itself at Verizon legendary. He was
(05:20):
there for thirty five years, led the twenty three billion
dollar consumer and small business unit, and also directed corporate
advertising and brand management. He managed thirty five thousand people
in his workforce worldwide, and then the career itself was honored,
as I said, in two thousand and seven first ballot
Advertising Hall of Fame from the American Advertising Federation, but
(05:43):
a whole list of other acknowledgments and rewards for him.
In two thousand and six, Ebony Magazine named him one
of its one hundred most influential Black Americans and organizational Leaders.
Twenty twenty two ranked number six on Fortune's list of
the fifty most Powerful Black executives, and then Black Enterprise
named him nineteen ninety eight Executive of the Year. Today
(06:06):
he consults for a whole broad range of Fortune five
hundred companies who need him, and this industry is better
for him. Bruce Gordon, welcome.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
To the pod.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
Thank you, Ross, and thank you for whoever made the
decision to pair me with Morgan. She made the reference
to our respective generations, and I will tell you that
for an old guy like me, my peers and I
oftentimes say who's coming that's going to continue the journey
and continue the fight and make the difference. And Morgan
(06:38):
is just that person. She certainly should have been a
first ballot selection because their credentials just have earned earth
that honor. So it's my good fortune to be sharing
this podcast with her.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Wow, well that's very special. I'm glad we got this
one right. What if you didn't like each other at all,
that would be all right, So we got that out
of the way. That somehow you know each other. I
think because as I said earlier, you both serve on
the Black Economic Alliance. You've met and you've worked together before.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Is that right.
Speaker 7 (07:13):
We're both members of the advisory board. I was actually
a founding board member, so I was on the board
of directors. But you know, our work causes us to collaborate.
But I've not spent this kind of quality time with Morgan.
So that's another real benefit of this podcast.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
What is that organization?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
If I can ask you, Morgan, what is the Black
Economic Alliance and why are you part of it?
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (07:39):
Black Economic Alliance we call it BEA for short, is
I think at this point the largest black pack that
is advocating for the advancement of black folks through economic
policies and a bipartisan we support policies, candidates and also
(08:00):
citic engagement. There's a five O one C three five
its one C four and a foundation and so they
do a number of things. You know, they're active behind
the scenes on the hill, they're active with philanthropy and
getting my generation to understand how collective donations can work
to move our agenda forward, which is very new and
(08:21):
not something that we all do or talk about. Which
is one of the things that I'm really passionate about
and I work with the team on, is how to
engage millennials gen Z who maybe feel like politics is
out of reach and that these things don't affect us
and we don't have much power, and it's actually it's
not the case. And bea in a very short period
(08:42):
of time has had a huge influence on our political
system and politicians donations, et cetera. So it's been a
learning experience for me being in a different world, still
doing my job, but in a different place, and just
being around so many incredible black executives.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
At the same time, a.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Lot of people talk about YouTube as trailblazers. When someone
says you're a trailblazer, a pioneer, do you like being
called that? What does that even mean to you? Do
you feel that way about yourselves?
Speaker 7 (09:12):
I can't tell you that I set out to be
a trailblazer. I just set out to do good things
you know, I was a product of the of the sixties,
so I came of age and my thinking was shaped
by what was going.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
On in the world.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
So this is the Vietnam War, the civil rights movement,
that was that was my surround, and it became evident
to me as a young man that if the quality
of life for black folks in America was going to
get better, and it certainly needed to that that required engagement.
(09:51):
So when I went to work at the Bell System,
I didn't go there to be a telecommunications expert, and
I had no expertise and to terms of marketing or
sales or whatever. I went there to be a change agent.
So change agency has been sort of at the core
(10:11):
of everything that I've done since then. As it turned out,
marketing to me is another platform for change agency, and
particularly in my industry, which had been a monopoly when
I started and became a fully competitive sector when I finished.
(10:33):
So change is what drives me. And if that ends
up doing some trailblazing along the way, that's all well
and good, but that was never the mission. Change agency.
Making things better was what inspired me.
Speaker 6 (10:48):
I agree with Bruce, like I didn't set out to
win awards or have milestones and things of that nature.
I actually started my career in Silicon Valley thinking that
technology would be the fastest way to make impact. You know,
you can have Wi Fi and get access to an
entire world of free information, whereas prior generations didn't have that.
You had to go to library and use I don't
(11:09):
know what people were doing to find out books, lots
of books, you know. But so I moved to Silicon
Valley and wanted to be around the most innovative people,
be around the biggest companies in the world, and unfortunately
realized that that was also a space that was not
set up for us. That wasn't actually set up for
the most innovative people in the world. It wasn't set
(11:32):
up for change and progress for the little guy. It
was set up to just reinforce capitalism in many different ways,
or get a piece takeover capitalism and shift the industry
towards technology. And so that became very frustrating to me
and for Blavity. When we first started to build it,
it was about, Okay, we're going to use this tool,
(11:55):
the Internet, to build our own power systems and infrastructure,
and then if we're really successful at amassing large amounts
of consumers in one place, then we're going to have.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
The power because people can't help. But look at us.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
I'm sure there's so many people who would have loved
to ignore me, would have loved to ignore Blavity, would
have loved to ignore Afrotech. But once you actually have
the people behind you, you can you can't ignore it.
And I think that's what Bruce's generation taught us. It's like,
if you have the people on your side, you know,
I think about the grassroots campaigns that we're done. I mean,
(12:33):
we don't do grassroots campaigns in the same way anymore,
but we do on the internet, right, And it's like,
if you're really noisy, and black folks are the noisiest
people on the internet, you know you have to pay attention.
We set so many trends, so I knew we had
that power opportunity and needed to figure out how to
build to get there. And now there's an immense amount
(12:55):
of responsibility where it's like, Okay, now we are pushing
industry forward. We are in conversations at the most senior
levels of CEOs. You know, I'm an advisory groups with
a variety of different corporations on the politics side, technology companies,
and so now we're at an interesting point. I'm an
(13:16):
interesting point in my career where I am still CEO
by day, but by night I have a lot of
other responsibilities. And so actually that would be my question
to you, Bruce, which is like, how did you how
did you manage your day job as an executive and
leader of people with also the responsibilities that were really
(13:38):
not really a part of your job description. And you know,
what advice would you give me as I kind of
get into that territory.
Speaker 7 (13:45):
That's a great question. I think that because I had
such clarity about my purpose, which I want to actually
come back and reverse the question to you, it was
easy to sort of stay on a track. And my purpose,
as I said earlier, really was to be a change
(14:06):
agent to open doors that were not open to us
as black folks, to get organization, the organization the company.
Because I wanted to be a change agent inside of
corporate America. So I seized every opportunity that presented itself,
sometimes not as selectively maybe as I should have been,
(14:28):
but I just seized every opportunity that surfaced and pursued
it aggressively and I found that that was not limited
to the workplace. There became some natural extensions. I also
found that because there were so few of us. Keep
in mind, I started my career in nineteen sixty eight.
(14:49):
The world looked very different then. And just to give
you a statistic, Bello, Pennsylvania, the company where I started,
had thirty three thousand employees, and of those thirty three
thousand employees, there were six hundred who were middle management
and above. There was one African American and no women.
(15:11):
So I mean, just you know, oh my gosh. So
there was abundance of opportunity to bring about change. So
because I was so singularly focused, I found whether it
was during the day in the office or doing the
evening informally collaborating with the few of us who were
(15:33):
on a similar trajectory, it didn't really require management. It
required finding the opportunities to get some sleep. But the
need and the opportunities to engage and push for change
were unlimited. So I I just tried to do everything
(15:54):
I could anywhere that I could, and I stayed grounded
based upon my purpose. It's clear to me you should
tell me whether I'm missing something here, But it's clear
to me that you're a woman of purpose. You know,
you fame and fortune was was, was not and is
not what drives you. And it appears to me that
(16:16):
that's that's been the case, and that that makes life's
not simple, but it makes it at least kind of clear,
right in terms of what you do and what you
don't do. I'm curious as to where that came from.
How did you identify that purpose? What what makes you
this this special woman who is not driven by wealth
(16:39):
creation and you know, headlines and you're just you're just
trying to do good.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Why.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think it really stems
from my upbringing. You know, I'm from Saint Louis, Missouri,
so I grew up in a state that was, you know,
flyover state more or less. And my parents are both
from Saint Louis. My dad's a sickle cell disease doctors,
so I grew up around in a research doctor as well.
(17:08):
So I grew up around my family always advocating for others,
always advocating for equity in the healthcare system, always advocating
for equity and patient care for black children, who are
more often than not the ones in this country who
have sickle cell disease, and he wanted me to be
a doctor. I did not want to be a doctor,
(17:31):
but I said, you know what, maybe I'll be a
I'll run the hospital like I like business. And when
I first got to college, that was my first minor
was a healthcare management minor major in business.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
And I started off in the.
Speaker 6 (17:45):
B school and I realized very I went to Washington
University in Saint Louis. I know, shout outs to Ross
Go Bears, which no one says because we're D three.
And I quickly realized being in the business school, actually
that these are not my people. You know, everybody in
the B school was being trained to be management consultants.
(18:08):
That was the thing at the time. You know, work
at Deloitte, work at bcg or Go, work corporate at Target, Wells, Fargo,
General Mills, et cetera. And it was very much a
pipeline and I could tell my first semester, this isn't
going to work for me, like I'm not, this is
not I'm not a pipeline person. So I switched to
(18:30):
arts and sciences very quickly, and I think that was
the first time when I really made a decision for
myself that I am going to be someone who doesn't
follow the pathways and I'm going to really seek out
learning and knowledge and it'll work itself out if I
am good at what I do and I spend time
(18:52):
with people and get to know people. I ran for
student body president and was very active on campus. I
won student body president and just com just run you
know I want, and so I was just really active.
I was on the board of trustees as a sophomore,
and I think that was the beginning of my self
affirmation that there are things more important than the pursuit
(19:14):
of this check mark or this entry level salary. And
I think I do aspire to be wealthy. I spent
a lot of time actually trying to be wealthy and
not rich, meaning I have more ownership.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
Of my time. And I take that very seriously.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
To your point, you know, I'm not walking around in Gucci,
but I will absolutely pay for Uber Black. So it's
a delicate balance. And I think that Blavity Inc. As
a company, as we've grown, there's been many opportunities for
us to take, you know, advertising deals with clients for
campaigns that we don't feel good about and we've said no.
(19:56):
And again in early days, I got a lot of flak.
I was called very diff dificult by many clients. Would
get phone calls from my black girlfriends who worked at
the companies and say they're not going to prove this.
They don't want to work with you, you know, and
I'm like, yeah, because I'm going to hold them accountable
to the ads that they're putting to the display photos.
You know, we would get ad campaigns. It's a lot
(20:19):
better today than it was seven years ago. Blavitie's nine
years old. We would get display advertisements where the images
are white hands and white faces, and I would say,
do you have any other ad creative? Like can we
This isn't going to convert. We're held accountable to click
through rates, We're held accountable to conversion, and you're going
(20:41):
to say we're not converting, and I'm going to say
you're at creative is bad, right, And so that's where
I started. Now where we are now is that we'll
say we'll do the ad creative for you.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
You know, if you don't have it, we'll do it right.
But there was a lot of tension and conflict in
terms of the challenges between making money, making revenue for
the business and doing something that I thought would make
sense in the long term for our community, our audience,
and ultimately where I wanted Blavity to go.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Well, let's talk about progress. You've both made a lot
of progress.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
You've achieved quite a bit in your careers, and as
you say, Morgan, it's a lot better today than it was.
Sure you two have worked with and continue to work with,
some of the biggest companies in the world. When I
worked at Paramount, which was ten thousand people at the time,
I never felt like I belonged. I never felt like
I was making enough progress. I always felt alone, and
(21:37):
I had a lot of trouble measuring the impact and
the success of the work that I was doing. And
I'm wondering for our listeners, did you both feel that way?
Do you still maybe sometimes feel that way? I meane, Bruce,
for you, not just Verizon, but you've been on the
boards of some of the biggest companies in the world, ADT,
Northrop Grumman, Ticho International Office, Depot, Infinity Broadcast. I mean you,
(21:58):
Alvin Ailey, You've You've been in a lot of huge
corporations trying to affect change. And then Morgan, you still
today work with some of the biggest companies in the
world American Airlines, PepsiCo, et cetera. How do you, guys
feel as you're doing this, Do you feel like you're
making progress or are there times where you're like, I
don't feel like anything I'm doing is having an impact.
Speaker 7 (22:18):
So I think that it's undeniable that there's been progress,
at least in my in my time frame, I've seen
plenty of progress, and it's worth celebrating. But you'll recall
that when Barack Obama found his way to the Oval office,
you heard this post racial uh terminology. You know, well,
(22:41):
now that there's a black president, I guess everything's okay,
which Morgan and I both know was far from the truth.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, because people felt right like, while we checked the box,
we did that.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Now we can go back to having white presidents again.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
Well, I mean it was Listen, it was a big deal.
Let's let's let's be clear about that. Having a black
man in the White House was a big deal. But
it didn't mean that it was all over and all
was well with the world. So let's be clear, progress, yes,
but much more to do without question, and we know
(23:15):
that I never wanted to belong, so to your point,
I never had this desire to fit in. I was
comfortable in my own skin, and I was pretty clear
headed about what my mission was and what it wasn't.
So I was kind of unpopular in some respects. I
(23:37):
know for a fact that there was a time in
my career where the senior executives in the marketing organization
were trying to fire me. I mean, I know that,
but that was kind of okay because that meant that
they were paying attention. That meant that I was making
them uncomfortable, and frankly, I liked making folks uncomfortable. And
in Morgan's example, you know, I learned a lot of
(23:59):
that from my parents. So that's some of my instincts
were a function of what I learned from my parents.
So I was never try I wasn't a joiner I
want to fit in. I was I want to make
a difference. Were there times when I really felt that
I was succeeding. Yes, were there times when I thought
I was banging my head against the wall. And one
(24:20):
of the second guests whether I was on the right path. Yes,
I'll tell you a quick story, because it really ties
into both being a social change agent and being a marketer.
I reached a point in my career where I was
a senior officer, but I was not a member of
the management committee, the top policy setting group, So if
(24:41):
I wanted to make something happen, I had to go
before that group and pitch them. And I was very
aggressive when I first got into this job, this particular job. Well,
to fast forward, the president of the company was retiring
and he invited people to come in for their last
coaching session, and I said, I'll take you on that.
And I went in and he said, here's what I've
(25:01):
observed about you, Bruce. He said, when you first got
into this marketing job, he said, you were full of
pisson vinegar, and you were in front of the medicine
committee at every meeting, pitching this and pitson that, trying
to shake us up. He said, But I noticed over
time that you stopped coming, and I have a feeling
(25:22):
that it was because you were losing more than you
were winning, and you became discouraged. And I'm here to
tell you that if you're a marketing guy, it's your
job description to make people uncomfortable. It's your job description
to come into the management committee and tell us to
do things, and you're not always going to win. Get
over yourself, but you better get back on that horse
(25:45):
and come back into that managed committee and be the
guy that you were a year ago. And that was
a hell of a lesson for me, because he was right.
I got disgusted with the fact that they weren't listening
to me and they weren't doing the things that I
thought they should do. And then I said, Okay, I
got it. I'm going to win some, I'm going to
lose some. But even when I lose, you know, get
(26:08):
back in there and fight to fight again. So that
was an important lesson in it I learned that whether
you're a civil rights activist trying to drive corporate policy
that is in the best interest of people of color
and women, do what you've got to do. You're going
to win some, you're going to lose some. But that
(26:29):
same characteristic and quality behavior is what marketers need to
because it's your job to make the company uncomfortable. It's
your job to bring the voice of the customer into
the boardroom. It's your job to push the company in
new directions, that's what you do. And I got real
comfortable with that, and it made a big difference in
(26:51):
how I proceeded and this desire to not fit in,
but to just do what makes sense and what's right.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the challenges that
I have and with our generation is I feel like
our tolerance as a community and as a people has
gone down. I feel like we're not as when people
tell us no, it can rattle so many feathers, you know,
And I just I see so much chatter online every day,
even in my own employees, where there's an entitlement to
(27:21):
an easy yes, and it can be frustrating for me
at times, you know, where it's like it's okay that
we pissed somebody off, Like it's okay, like everyone's walking
on eggshells.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
I was like, oh, well, you know we're gonna lose
this deal.
Speaker 6 (27:37):
I'm like, it's okay if we lose this deal because
we said something that we really all felt and meant,
you know that we didn't like this campaign or we
didn't like this RFP and we don't we don't think
that it's the right strategy, you know, or even on
the news side. There's just so much change with how
the Internet is impacting media companies right now, where we
(28:00):
are fighting every day to not get defunded for political
news coverage, you know. Keyword ad blocking is one of
the issues that I talk about often because what happens
is that we have these big corporations who want brand safety,
and it trickles down all the way to the bottom
(28:21):
of the totem pole, and so we wind up with
lists of two thousand to five thousand words that our
articles can't have. So, for example, shoot, So if we
have an article that's talking about a photo shoot and
we're a black site, that article gets blocked because it's
run by an algorithm, right and we're talking about fashion week,
(28:43):
we're not talking about violence, and we have to fight
every single day for those impressions. And to the point
where my team's just like, let's just we're just give
us the list. We're just not going to use these words, and.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
I'm like, no, because the list will only get longer.
The list will only get longer.
Speaker 6 (29:02):
And that's just an example one of the challenges that
we face every single day where I feel like we're
losing the battle a little bit.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, so So, Morgan, this is really a question for
you both. What does it mean that the American Advertising
Federation is inducting the founder and CEO of Blavity this year? Like,
what does that say to the industry that you were chosen?
Because there's a lot of people we looked at like,
but it was I'm telling you in the room you
(29:31):
were a no brainer. Like people were like, oh, Morgan, yeah,
it's time, let's.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Go, let's do this. But what does that say that
you're in?
Speaker 6 (29:38):
I mean, I hope it says that when I post
on LinkedIn, everybody won't side text me like are you
sure about this post? And I'm like, yes, I'm sure
that people need to know about these issues. But yeah,
I don't know, Ross, I mean TBD, Like, I'm open
to the experience. I'm not going to change who I am.
So I hope it means I have a few more
people backing me up in rooms I'm not in.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
You know, well, Bruce, you you look at ed Morgan,
you said in the beginning of the conversation as really
important to the future of our industry in business and culture.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
What does it say to you that she was chosen
this year? What does that mean, what does that signal
to the industry.
Speaker 7 (30:12):
Keep in mind, my my perspective about the industry is
that Madison Avenue was one of the final frontiers in
terms of making progress with diversity. It was it was
it was a white man's world, and our presence was
virtually zero, and the only black folks that you found
(30:33):
in advertising were the ones who had multicultural firms. So
diversity just was not there. It's certainly gotten better, But
and what does it say about Morgan? It says, listen, this,
this woman is doing amazing things. She's a young woman,
so she's not even partners the sports metaphors here, she's
(30:56):
she's still in the first half, right, she's she has
she's not in the locker when getting ready for second
She's still in the first half, and she's winning. Of course,
she should be singled out and recognized for her exceptional accomplishments.
And she happens to be a woman of color. But
she's a competent professional and that's why she's there. So
(31:20):
I won't say it's a color blind decision, but the
fact that this decision has been made and she is
an inductee says a lot about the progress that's been
made in this particular space where progress has been slow coming.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
I couldn't agree more with you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Bruce, and a lot of people talk about the Advertising
Hall of Achievement as the halfway mark in your career.
I feel like that's true with you Morgan. There's a
lot to come. If you both could, if you could
each snap your fingers and change something about the advertising industry,
what would you change?
Speaker 5 (31:58):
I gotta pause on that one. That's a good question. Yeah,
if I could only change one.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Thing, it would just be maybe the first thing you
would change. Where would you start? What would you start with?
Speaker 6 (32:07):
Trying to think about the thing that would make the
most impact, which would mean I'd have to pick the
thing that it's the most painful. What's the biggest pain point?
I think this need for efficiency is really challenging, you know.
I respect that advertising agencies are also businesses and everyone's
(32:29):
having a tough time with how things are being automated.
But the need for efficiency I think at times reduces
the human element that made marketing and advertising campaigns so
potentially impactful for change and storytelling some impactful for change.
And I see more and more people trying to pick
(32:50):
the most efficient route not necessarily the most impactful route,
and I think I would try to help change the
corporation's request of the agencies to say, we want, yes,
some efficiency, but we want the most impact, and we're
willing to work a little slower, give people a little
(33:12):
more creativity in some space, and we're not scared of
a little chatter on social media for doing so.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
I'll probably be thinking about the best answer to your
question when this session is over and I'm laying in
bed the night's reflecting what happened this day. So I'll
just say this. When I was in a room at Horizon,
and we've had a stable of ad agencies, like many companies,
(33:39):
we had a multicultural agency. It was Barill Communications. You know,
Tom Burrell is a pioneer and a dear friend and
a Hall of Fame inductee, and Tom's agency did great
work well. We had a big branding campaign coming up
for the company, and I talked with the woman who
ran advertising on my team and we said, let's get
(34:04):
Burrell to compete for this campaign. It wasn't a multicultural campaign,
it was just a campaign. And we said, you know, why,
why is it that we would limit them to only
doing multicultural work. They're good, they do. They produce good creative.
If they can produce good creative, great creative and for
(34:28):
a multicultural campaign, then why can't they produce great creative
for a general market campaign. So let's give them the
opportunity to compete for this work. And we did, and
they did and they want. So I say that to
say I think that the talent base in our community
(34:53):
is so deep and so rich that I don't want
them to be under U. I don't want that community
to be put in a box and say, well, you're
good for multicultural work, loor good for all work, you know.
And it sounds a bit arrogant, maybe, but you know,
(35:13):
our attitude is anything you can do, I can do better, right,
So don't tell me I can't do that. Of course
I can give me the opportunity. So I just want,
and maybe sounds a bit naive. I want to be
more of an inclusive, color blind approach that says I
want the best talent I can get. I want the
(35:34):
best talent working on the best the most important assignments
I have, and I'm going to include everybody in that process.
So that's an example of progress that could be made,
but it's not the only example. And whether it's it's
number one on my list because it's the thought that
comes to mind Ross at the moment. But tonight I'll
(35:55):
think of ten other things that could be number one.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I appreciate that we'll have you back on the I
guess too. I mean, I have if up to me,
I have you on every episode. But what you just said, Bruce,
is something that a friend of mine's someone I learned
from a lot who leads one of the very few
black owned agencies in this country, which is Joe Anthony
at Hero Media. He has been so loud on this
(36:18):
issue that you just raised, which is, why are you
only fucking sending me multicultural opportunities? Why are you only
rfping me on quote African American campaigns or urban urban RFPs.
Why are you not letting me participate or even thinking
of us in general market?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Which is it's absurd.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
To think that that's happening in twenty twenty three, but
it is, and that is a that's a huge problem
because it just means that we're not getting the best advertising.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
That's what it means.
Speaker 7 (36:52):
Yes, yeah, And at the end of the day, this
is an oversimplification, and I know it. You know, in
the agency portfolio of skill sets, you obviously have to
have good quant people, you have to have good strategy people,
you have to have good account management people. But over simplicitly, ultimately,
the creative has got to be good, right, You've got
(37:14):
to produce good creative And if you limit the people
who are coming to you to present creative, then you're
not going to get the best word to get there right, period, period,
end the story. So and you know, more goan to
kind of shift a bit. You know, So you've got
this millennial talking to a baby boomer, right, so we're
(37:38):
there are generations between us. I happen to have a
forty five year old son. I'm a I'm a granddad,
and you know, people you know look at me and say,
you know, you've had a great career, You've done a
lot of wonderful things, and what advice do you have?
And I sometimes say, when I'm looking at a person
as young as Morgan, I say, you know, I'm the
(37:59):
one who's to be asking that question. You know, I
look at my generation and I try to stay current,
but you know, I raised my son trying to teach him.
But my son's doing a lot of teaching to his
dad these days because he sees the world that I
don't see quite through the same lens. And I wonder, Morgan, sometimes,
(38:22):
as you look to my generation, what is it that
your generation wants to make sure we get. Yeah, so
that's where maybe called on to provide guidance or support
or advice. We're doing it with a really solid appreciation
and understanding of the world in which you were operating.
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Yeah, I have an abundance mindset in so many different ways,
and I think the generation behind me has that as well.
You know, when I hear you all talk about the
numbers and the data of you know, thirty three thousand employees,
six hundred of management.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
No women, you know, I'm like, oh, man, Like.
Speaker 6 (39:04):
I would take myself out the game at that point.
But we are the new majority now, right, So like
black and multicultural is the new majority. So we're not
actually a minority anymore. And we I think we'll all
walk around like we're still minorities and it's just not
(39:26):
the case. So it was the case, but it is not.
These babies are coming out. You know, my baby will
be here, He will be a part of the majority.
So that changes everything because literally, statistically speaking, we are like,
so far away are the corporations, our policies, our mindset
(39:48):
is so far away from the reality that is literally
already here. They're just in elementary school right now. And
so to me, when I think about Hero Collector, I
think about you know, Walter Isaacson and Aaron's team. I
think about Barrell. I'm like, oh, man, if y'all can
just hold on for like ten more years, you should
(40:10):
be the biggest and the baddest because you are going
to know more about the majority than these big agencies.
You know, you'll probably get acquired, you know. But that
is what I think. And also that's how I think
about blavity, right It's like, when I first started, we
were a minority. By the time I'm finished, we should
(40:30):
and could be the largest thing in the room because
we're actually servicing the a better representation of America and
the consumer. And I wish that more people of your
generation really stood with that confidence. But I think it's
because you all have fought so hard for even the
minority to get equal representation that the idea that we're
(40:53):
going to get even like more than fifty percent representation
feels really far fetched. But I'm like, I want half
stop with this two to three percent. How half I'm
want my Byron Allen. Like, you know, I respect a
lot of things that Byron has done because it has
forced people to say, like, we should have fair opportunity
(41:14):
regardless of these small percentages that you're allocating to this
bucket of people. Are these buckets of groups or companies.
So I'm grateful for those folks who have challenged the
system in a way that I can't quite yet.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Look, I learned a lot from every one of these episodes,
but this one in particular really moving, inspiring for someone
like me to listen to YouTube talk and be able
to honor the two of you with this.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So, Morgan Debond, Bruce Gordon, you're both legends. Thank you
so much for joining us. I don't know how we're
going to do a better episode than this one, but
we're going to try.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
I don't think it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Thank you both, and thanks everyone for listening to Future
Legends of Advertising.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Thanks Ross.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Well that does it for this episode of the Future
Legends of Advertise podcast on iHeart I'm Ross Martin.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And I'm Hailey Romer and thank you for listening. We'll
be back with another episode before you know it. And
for more information on the American Advertising Federation, go to
AAF dot org.
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