November 16, 2023 • 39 mins
From “the climb” to “the lift,” how two extraordinary marketers lean into their power to achieve results and effect change.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to season two of the Future Legends
of Advertising podcast on iHeart, featuring the hottest up and
coming stars in advertising as well as the biggest legends
in the game.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In this series, we explore the future of the advertising
industry through never before heard conversations between those who created
it and those who are shaping its future.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're your hosts, Hailey Romer and Ross Martin.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Now let's meet the legends. I got to say before
I introduced these people. I totally won the season because
I said this in the last episode when Haley and
I divided up who's going to do which episodes? I
(00:52):
was like, not that the other episodes suck, they're good,
but they didn't have Baldwin Cunningham and Jerry Devart, and
I got Baldwin and Fart. So this is that episode.
Let me first bring out Baldwin. So I think everyone knows.
He's the director of Media and Partnerships at State Farm. There,
he's accountable for the media budget, sponsorship portfolio. He's got
(01:13):
to drive brand awareness and consideration. He's also got to
drive quote starts for State Farm. So he's got an
intense job and he's coming off of a job that
was also intense, where he was the VP of Client
Sales Lead at Warner Brothers Discovery, where he was driving
revenue across CpG, DTC Finance, insurance. All that, and before that,
(01:33):
he was a VP of Strategy at Britain Co working
for our friend brit So without further ado, the Forbes
thirty Under Thirty Award winner from twenty fifteen, the twenty
nineteen synopsis Rising Star awardee, and the Bumble Business Most
Inspiring New Yorker's very own Baldwin Cunningham, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I should have you introduced me everywhere. Ross. That was great.
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That's what your buddy Chris Paul said when we interviewed him.
I gave him an incredible introduction and then he was like,
you should introduce me when I like play NBA games,
and I told him I'm better than the dude who
does it at Barclay Center. Hey man, thank you for
joining the show. I'm really happy to have you on
the podcast, and I'm very excited about the award you're
about to get. How are you feeling right now?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Well, and thank you again for having me it's sonana
to be here talking to you and Jerry, who I've
known and seen for a long time. You know, heads down,
working hard all the time, but sometimes it's good to
kind of take a step back and celebrate. So I'm
very excited about this award. I'm very excited about the
class of people. They're all awesome, and I'm looking forward
(02:44):
to it.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
It's going to be a big night. November sixteenth and
New York the American Advertising Federation's Advertising Hall of Achievement, which,
as everyone knows, honors executives who are forty and under.
What does it feel like for you when you got
the call? Because I gotta tell you, man, this year
it's always competitive. This was freaking intense, Like we only
(03:06):
can let seven people into this thing. There's only like
two hundred and fifty in it overall, and the Hall
of Achievement's a huge honor. So when you found out
how did that go?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
The first thing I did was call my wife. You know,
I was really excited about it, and she knew that
this process was happening. You know, when you have your
head down, you're working, you're trying to do the best
you can. It's good when the world or your community
or other folks kind of see what you've been working on,
so you kind of validated some of the things that
(03:37):
you don't really get a feedback loop to. So it
was exciting and it made me think that good job
with where I've come, and there's still a long way
to go, but to get an acknowledgement along the way
is great.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, you're paired on this episode with a true icon,
Jerry Devard. We're going to bring her out here in
a second, but how do you feel about this pairing?
Like you're about to have a conversation with Jerry. I
think you guys have met a couple of times. You
sort of know her, but you definitely know who she is,
and what do you think about this conversation you're going
to have with her? What about her career?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Listen, I couldn't be more excited. I think Jerry models
what an executive is and should be. She has a
very polished career in the marketing industry, holding executive level
positions across several big companies that we're all aware of.
But then to be on the other side and dedicate
(04:30):
your life towards changing the infrastructure and the system behind
you is also important. So I'm excited to dig in
and learn more about just the impact during the journey
and what the plan is for after as she still
continues to pave the way.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, I think she doesn't seem to be slowing down,
So let's bring her out. What people know Jerry's doing
right now is called BECA be ECA, the Black Executive
CMO Alliance. She's going to talk about that, but it's
alliance that's designed to champion corporate diversity and help build
the next generation of C suite marketing executives, and god
(05:08):
knows we need help there. But as you pointed out, Baldwin,
she's worked for almost every company that you can think of,
you know, chief customer officer and EVP of office depot
for a long time. She's also held senior roles at Verizon, Citibank, Revlon, Harrah's, NFL, General, Mills, Pills.
(05:29):
But I mean it's like, who has this resume? And
the other thing is she sits on all these boards
and has sat on boards. She's on the under Armour board, Cars,
dot Com, Root Insurance before that, several others. In twenty
twenty one, Advertising Age awarded Jerry with the Vanguard Award,
one of the biggest awards in our industry, and it
(05:50):
follows a long list of accolades. I have so much
deep respect for this human being and I'm so honored
she would come on this podcast. Jerry Debard, welcome to
the show.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Thank you, Ross, it's so good to be here. Before
I even say anything, congratulations Baldwin. That's a BFD being
inducted into the Hall of Achievement, So congratulations, see you
and all the work you've done. And Ross, as always,
it's always amazing to see you. Howg you catch up?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, last time I saw you, I think we were
on the cossette. We're at a castle in south of France,
and I yes, I saw Jerry Varden. I said, I
don't care who I'm talking to. If I see Jerry
Davard at a party, I'm running that way and I'm
going to give her the big gave me the biggest tug.
It's so nice to see you.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I know, time stood still, and you know why.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
You know, there's a lot of what we do and
there's a lot of the impact that we have on others.
And my daughter broke Devardo's Idley had the great fortune
to work for you when she was at Viacom, and
to this day Ross she says that you were one
of the best bosses that she ever had.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Oh, she taught me more than I taught her.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I think when someone says that about you, it's the
real deal. So part of my mom kicks in, part
of my fangirl kicks in when I see you, and
part of my enjoyment of just cool, fun people kicks in.
So it's always going to be around you at Yes,
I almost dropped my last of prosecco when I saw
you because my champagne sorry Champagne, got to know where
(07:21):
it was when I saw you.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I appreciate you and shout out to the Naked Beauty
podcast Brooks podcast, which is unbelievable. So you two, I mean,
there's lots of reasons why the AF and iHeart and
Haley and I decided to pair you, but I think
if I had to boil it down to just one,
I think it's that look. Baldwin and Jerry. You're obviously
(07:45):
incredible marketers. Jerry, you were such a good marketer at
AGT that you convinced me to get ADT from my
house in Brooklyn. So you're both incredible marketers. We all
know that, but I feel like you two are never
operating within the boundaries of your quote job. I think
it's the thing that it doesn't define you, but it
(08:08):
certainly characterizes both of your careers. When I met Baldwin,
I couldn't have even told you what he did at
first at Warner Brothers Discovery because I felt like you
were doing so many things to move that company forward.
And Jerry, same for you throughout your career, but you've
also done it in culture and in community. And I
(08:29):
just I guess I wonder how you both feel about
you get to a job and then I don't think
either of you ever look at the job description after
you get the job, because it's just sort of like
this license for you to innovate. And I guess if
we could just start with Baldwin and then we'll go
to Jerry, where does that come from? Like you just
don't seem to be content doing the job itself. You
(08:51):
always seem to be doing so much more. Do you
feel that way?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
No, I don't feel that way, But I'm also I
see where that comes from. You know, first generation America
and I come from immigrant parents who both work two
jobs just so I can be better. So the work
ethic starts with them. But with every role I came into,
I think there's an idea of what the outcome of
(09:17):
the role should be, and then there's what you're capable
of doing or the impact you can potentially have. So
I always look at, you know, the job at hand
as table stakes, but then what's the impact I'm going
to make? How do I change things on top of
that and just keep pushing things forward a little bit?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And Jerry, it seems to me every time I turn
around there's some You're everywhere and yet you're an incredibly
devoted mother and wife and grandmother now, but I don't
understand how you're doing all that. You're the impact. There's
no way to even calculate all the impact you've had
on our industry and in the communities. Where does that
drive come from for you?
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Well, I think, first of all to say when you
say I'm everywhere everywhere maybe digitally, but not everywhere physically,
because I don't go out to a whole lot of things.
I'm very picky about where I go and what I do.
But I do think that it's important to have a presence.
And I was laughing when you said, you know all
that you do because I'm I've always been guilty of
doing the most, Like I can't do one thing, I
(10:17):
don't know if I can only do five things, And
that's kind of in me. And I think part of
that was just I'm obsessed with doing something and doing
it well, Like don't half askt like why do it
if you're not gonna do it well? And so when
you put that on top of being in an organization
where what you do and how you perform leads to
your reputation and your success, and then later on in
(10:39):
my career of the impact because you know, when I
was in Baldwin shoes, I was just kind of putting
one foot in front of the other, right, And then
somewhere along the way, when you're climbing the ladder, you
realize that it's not about the climb, but it's about
the lift, right, and that you have to turn around
and see, well, wait a minute, who's kind of coming
up behind me? Because people behind you are looking at you,
they're watching everything you do. You don't know it, you're
(11:00):
not thinking about that, and so I think doing a
lot is a because I can. I'm just like wired
that way to do a whole lot of stuff. At
the same time, b I have made the things that
I do the things I want to do, so I'm
busy doing the things I want to do, at least
especially now, versus the things I have to do. And
then I guess the third point would be that I recognize,
(11:23):
accept and am honored by the privilege of representing with
big air quotes my people in that my success is
not just my success but the success of others. And
how I telegraph that and do that I think is
really really important.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Jerry, I do have a question for you on that,
because I like the separation between the climb and the
pole right, and when you put your head into the
climb phase, it's like you've achieved so many things. Was
that based on putting your head down, working hard, and
all the right circumstances prevented them presented themselves to you,
(12:01):
or was that based on having a plan in which
he wanted to intentionally climb. In that perspective, I'm curious,
as someone on that climb side, how are you thinking
when you were in it?
Speaker 4 (12:13):
It was none of the above, and it was humility
born out of failure. Right when I first started my career,
every job I got, it came to me without me
even asking to think about, Oh, they're gonna promote, You're
gonna pro Oh great, great, I'm being promoted. Then all
of a sudden, I didn't get promoteded and I thought, well, well,
what's going on? Wait a minute, and I realized that
(12:35):
I had to kind of now go out and talk
to people about what I was or was not doing,
and getting some real serious feedback about what I wasn't doing,
and then having to ask others to help, and that
I think it was going from being a manager to
being promoted to a director. And then I realized, oh crap,
I can't promote myself. I've got to I've got to
really have people help me. You know. It's like the
(12:56):
village that I needed. And so in being humble by
not getting promoted with everybody else and recognizing that I
needed help, I then asked myself, well who am I
helping and who am I here for? And that's what
really kind of cemented that in me.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Right. So, now going to the pollside, I'm curious, what
do you think is going to be more impactful to
bring more people like you and me into these executive positions.
Is it being the role model and inspiring because I
looked at your LinkedIn it's like, Okay, you inspire me,
and that's enough for some. But on the other side,
(13:35):
it's you got to double click and kind of help
people see what you saw and look around corner. It's like,
what do you think is going to be most impactful
as you look at that climbing pole side.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Well, first of all, don't be fool by You're inspiring
a lot of people, Baldwin, and you know that. Like, so,
don't be fooled by the length of my resume. You
what you've done and where you are and the job
that you sit in and the millions and hundreds of
millions that you control. Someone is watching that and saying, yeah,
that's what I want to do. I also want to
(14:08):
say when I went from the climb to the lift,
it was when I was in rooms when we talked
about succession planning. The first time I had to sit
down and talk about my team and see how it
was presented and what people said, the things they did
say and the things they didn't say, and I thought, Oh,
so this is how the game is being played. Someone
is in viewed as having gravitas. Someone is in viewed
(14:29):
as being quantitative, someone is in viewed as being strategic.
Someone doesn't have the influence of the room. And so
when I started to connect the dots and see what
those people look like, women and people of color, I
was like, oh, okay, so I'm getting the cues. Now
I'm getting the keys. How do I then reach out
to these people to say, how are you approaching this meeting?
You need to say this, do this, ask that person,
(14:51):
build that. So as I got more and more of
the breadcrumbs, I started putting it together to make a
loaf and realizing that because I was in that room
having that conversation, that I couldn't keep it to myself
and I had to find a way, you know, confidentially
without revealing anything to help lift those people up. So
that's the first part of that in terms of the
impact that we can have. So many times when I've
(15:13):
talked to people about you know, people that I've hired
or promoted or put in rooms and podiums where they
can be viewed, because I always think good leaders give
praise for even the work that they've done when their
team has worked for them, and bad leaders take credit.
And so someone said to me one time, well, yeah, Jerry,
you can do that because you were a fill in
(15:34):
the blank. But I'm just a fill in the blank.
And I said, Okay. You may not feel you have
the power to create these opportunities, but you can damn sure.
Ask the questions right, Ask why? Ask why isn't this
person in the room? Ask why don't you have an assignment?
Ask why aren't you being you know, prepared for Assuming
you've told people what you want right, because no one
(15:55):
can need your mind. Ifody wakes up every day, try
to figure out what you want. But assuming that you've
told them that, then I think our opportunity is to
die trying to change whatever sphere of influence we have.
If it's not by doing, it's by asking questions. If
we talk about rooms and organizations where you're you know,
the only male, but you look back at your team
(16:18):
and your whole team is male, then what are you doing?
If you're in a room and you talk about, you
know it not having people of color, and you look
at your own team and there are no people of color.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Than what are you're doing.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So it's holding people accountable but also leading into your
power about changing the normal course of direction.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Love that everyone can make a change.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I wonder Baldwin when you think about the back half
of your career. So there's a funny thing that happens
with the Hall of Achievement is that all these people
call it like the halfway mark in your career, which
I find scary because if you're forty years old, I
don't I don't really want to work until I'm eighty whatever.
So when you look at the back half of your
(17:01):
career from here on right, you take that stage on
the sixteenth you get your award, it's sort of this responsibility.
What are the things that you look at Jerry and
other heroes of ours and you're like, I know what
I want to go do with this responsibility.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
That's an interesting question.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
It's funny with Jerry Head at the beginning of her
last question was you've already done and people are already watching.
So I think it starts off by understanding that you know,
I'm in a position to make the impact and not
letting any external thing validate that time. And you know,
as you're growing in your career, you're trying to figure
(17:39):
out the balance of you know, how much you give
and how much you need to go and do and
execute yourself. But you can execute to give right and
you can kind of bridge those two things together. And
it's really about pulling people along. I've been lucky with
the jobs and the people and the community I've been in,
but at every corner there's been someone who helped pull
(18:02):
me out or helped tell me to look right instead
of left, and I have to honor that and know
that's a part of why I'm here now. The question
is how do I do that to others Because ROSSI
you say this all the time. I always looked like
the person that doesn't fit in. But then I get
into the job and do more than the job asked for.
But that's only because people place the bet on me. Right,
(18:25):
That's because someone helped me see what I'm capable of,
and I'm starting to define that in my own world,
in my own life. So it's about inspiring the other
people that just start right on edge, that can be
the next version or be better than I am, that
just needs to vote of confidence.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Yeah, I was gonna say Baldon. As you were saying
you were figuring it out. It's funny as you're figuring
it out, someone else has already figured it out. So
someone else has already dropped your name, or followed you,
or or wanted to have the confidence or the excellence
or the command of the room that you have, because
(19:02):
in your job there's a lot of responsibility. You know,
you don't get there by luck. And you said luck,
and I'm always you know, like, okay, Really that that
thing about preparation meeting hard work is very true. You know,
nobody was handing out free candy, Baldwin when you showed up, right,
you've earned the right to be there. And I think
that people came out to help you because it's because
(19:24):
they said, yeah, he's got something, and I want to
help him. So when you think about how you want
to pay it forward to how you're paying it forward,
how does that kind of come together and how do
you think about paying it forward?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I started with just thinking about my life and when
I look back, the unknown has always been scary until
it wasn't right. I didn't know what entrepreneurship was until
I met entrepreneurs and then I started a company. I
didn't know what being in corporate America was until I
got into corporate America and I said, Okay, I can
(19:57):
do this. And it's really about when you're at that point,
that edge where you're questioning whether you are capable of
achieving something or not. I want to be the guy
pushing people over because we set limits to ourselves sometimes
and the world is limitless. So I think the more
and more people that can just see themselves on the
(20:17):
other side and know they can make the change they
want to see in the world and they can execute
the things that they're thinking about, the better we're all
going to be. And hopefully I can be that push
for folks.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well, you already are that push. But the industry. Let's
talk about our industry. So we're at a kind of
crazy time for marketers and advertisers. And I feel about
the two of you. You could have been successful in
lots of different industries. What do you both love about
marketing and advertising? What that keeps you in it?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What gets me excited about this industry is the possibilities
not being here. The whole world is a platform, right
and everything we do is driven towards achieving our business goals,
but the route to get there is absolutely endless. It's storytelling,
it's how we execute, It's how you partner, how we're
(21:07):
looking at culture, whether you're young or old, how you're collaborating,
whether you're here or there. And I like this mix
of variables that we just have to be paying attention
to you in order to execute against at any time.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
What I love about this industry is that it shows me.
It shows me before I even knew it, because I
didn't know the idea of persuading people to buy, to prefer,
to consider was a thing like you all walk around
the grocery store wherever we are, and all the brands
that we buy. It's a function of someone getting in
your head around what's best for you. And when I
(21:44):
took a class i was then econ major at Spelman College,
shout out to Spelman College, my wonderful ALBA mater. I
took up class in consumer behavior and it was like wow, okay, yeah,
this is why people do what they do. And I
was just so drawn to it that I knew that
this was something I wanted to do the only thing
that I probably could have also done was to be
in sales in some form or fashion, because as a marketer,
(22:06):
you're always selling an idea, you're selling persuading an organization
to take a path. Some people feel that that path
is subjective, but it's very objective and very data rich
in when you live in a world of data, so
you know what I'm talking about. But I think that
the beauty of being able to decide and create reasons
(22:27):
to purchase and believe and to want, which is very
sexy to me and something that I was like, yeah,
I'm all in on that, even before I knew what
you did with it.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And for me, I kind of also stumbled into marketing.
But I think the core of marketing has always been
something involved in my life, so entrepreneurship. It's building things
that don't exist and solving problems, which is something I
do every day as a marketer. Jerry sells, I was
(23:00):
on a sales side for five years. You're constantly selling,
you know here. I like that it has this mix
between business and solving real business enterprise problems, but then
there's this layer of creativity on top. So marketing is
a collection of all of those things in my past
that I get to exercise on a daily basis.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Yeah, I can't imagine. Like I look at like what
our chief legal officer did, our CFO or supply chain.
It's like, really, that's what you do all day? Okay
do you? But you know we're having fun over here.
But it's tough. I mean, I should say it's tough
because everyone feels that their mother, brothers, sister, lover can
do it better, cheaper, faster, smarter. But you build a
(23:43):
thick skin around that and you just really get into
it and understand the reasons and the data that you
need to persuade.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
There was a real interesting moment in the Chris Paul
episode this season where he was really he was like
the first time he was on a set, which the
most significant set he's ever been on was really State Farm.
But he's also like, did Nike, He did beyond me?
And he was talking about how there's so many people everywhere,
(24:13):
and it's like if the director had a message, he
would pass it to somebody else, who had passed to
somebody else who would pass it to Chris and it'd
be like, we need you to speak a little bit
louder was the message. And he looked at the director.
He's like, bro, why don't you just tell me to
speak louder. You don't have to go all the way
around the whole room here to get to me. But
then he talked about like how much joy he had
(24:35):
in watching the team work together, and I wonder you're
both team leaders and team builders. I wonder if you
could talk about the power of the teams that you
guys have built and led and how you made them
or how you make them so successful.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
That's something I think about a lot, even coming into
this new role just over a year. We talked about
this with even mentees Jerry. It's not about me, it's
about I think the impact I have is how can
I make someone better after working with me? And that's
about the impact. But then currently it's like, how do
we get together to create a better product than anyone
(25:12):
can create as an individual. I think knowing that the
input across different people, different way of thinking, different ways
of life can result into something better for everyone is
what drives me. I'm an active listener as much as
I talk, but I think I listened more than I talked.
That's why you have two ears in one mouth. That's
(25:32):
the quote I live by. But this is this idea that
you can learn from everyone. You need to make people
feel comfortable about being in that environment and knowing that
their input is just as valuable as anyone else is.
As we walk through that journey.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Sometimes, Baldwin, sometimes because I'm going to tell you this
is something that I really, really, really care deeply about,
is good leadership. And because I had some really bad
managers growing up in my career. You know, as I said,
good leaders take blame and give credit. And I recall
(26:10):
many times working like weekends, evenings, all night on a
document from my boss, and I was like, yeah, okay,
you're gonna get to present this. But I wanted there
to be some recognition of what I had done, and
many times there wasn't. And so because of having had
that experience of feeling that I got a kind of
a pat on the head as opposed to, you know,
(26:32):
Jerry's done some of this work, I then started bringing
junior people into meetings with senior leaders. I'd say, look
at the work that you know Sarah did.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
She's great.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Because you then have to have the confidence to give
credit to others. You have to believe that you are
not judged by everything you do, but that the way
you are as a leader. And I was like a
bear with cubs, fiercely protective. Sometimes people felt that it
was overly protective and couldn't be objected, but I knew.
I knew that marketers, you know, were easy to be attacked,
(27:03):
so I knew I had to be able to protect
and defend and prepare them. And so I think that
being a good leader is really this is the golden rule.
Put yourself in that person's place who wakes up every
day trying to do a good job. Have you coached
led us teachable moments to make them better or have
you just thrown them into the deep end and said, yep,
(27:23):
told you they couldn't swim. And I think that because
people poured into me, I wanted the opportunity to do
the same. And it means so much when you're, you know,
coming up in your career and someone kind of like
I see you. Not only do I see you, but
I see that I can help you. And small things
like going to their office for a meeting instead of
having them come to my office, asking them what they
(27:46):
felt when they did raise their hands themselves, asking my
team when I get before I gave you know, after reviews,
I'd say, now give me some feedback and don't tell
me I'm great. Tell me how I can be a
better leader, because I know I can be. So it's
that vulnerability, that humility, that recognizing that. And I always
tell them I'm going to make mistakes. I point out
my mistakes, so no one feels that they have to
(28:07):
be perfect. And a lot of times, people of color
and women, we feel we have to be perfect because
if we show any sign of not being perfect, then
we're not going to get the same chances that other
people get. So in as I said, it's more cracks
in the veneer of the playbook started to show themselves.
I started to then use that, and one of the
(28:27):
things I wanted to be was a good leader. Now
I'm not soft, you could imagine I hold you accountable,
but I'm going to make sure that I'm going to
maximize my role as your leader to make you the
best you you can be.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Jerry, as you think back in your career being on
this side, you mentioned that idea of perfection, right, do
you still think that holds true? Is that just something
you thought while you were doing it and now that
you look back, was that the right way to be
thinking or read just overthinking it.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Well, that was not the right way to be thinking it.
I can tell you that that was a mistake because
I would stay up at night. I would stay up
the last person to leave the office. And I wasn't
doing it for brownie points. I was doing it so
I could be prepared, like I'm going to be prepared.
And I think it's because me as a black woman,
I felt that I couldn't go in and say I
didn't have the answer or that everything wasn't perfect. But
(29:20):
the problem with that is what I should have said
was I'm doing this, what do you think? I need
your help? And I need your help is not saying
I can't do it. It's like I value your experience,
your judgment, you're coaching, and I it took me too
long to come to the comfort of saying I need
your help. I had thoughts about it, and so I
see it now though still bolb and that posture syndrome
(29:43):
that many people face, like Okay, I'm just like here
on a humbug and they're going to discover me sooner
or later. People still feel that way and that needs
to stop. And so yes, it was prevalent for me
because I felt that the only way I could get
a hit was to be the smartest person in the room.
That if you're the smartest person in the room, you're
in the wrong room. But that the vulnerability and the
(30:05):
confidence to know that I didn't have to have all
the answers. So when people feel that they can't ask
for help, they haven't built a strong enough network. If
they've built a strong enough network and they haven't asked
for help, then that means that there is a bit
of fear of failure as opposed to arrogance. Because it's
not like I felt I had all the answers.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
It was like, oh hey, I don't have it.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
I got to figure this out. This was even before Google,
So you know, don't suffer in silence. And the worst
is don't fake the funk. If you don't know it,
don't act like you do, because anybody can double click
underneath that and expose you, you know, for fraud.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I love that and I love the vulnerability tie. I mean,
that's something I try to do often. We all make mistakes,
but it's a comfort level we need people to have
in being true to themselves and putting things out there
and letting us all grow together versus trying to do
it alone. They say, you want to go fast on alone,
(31:00):
you want to go far run together and just understanding
like what your input is to the together is. I
think that's an ongoing journey. But I love that help
comment because it is hard, right. It's like with everything
you can figure out and develop and learn in this world,
the last thing you want to show is that you're
not capable. But sometimes that's not the end goal. Sometimes
(31:24):
the end goals for us to work together to get
the capability. And I think that's a great nugget for that.
I'm going to run with from Aaron out well.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
But so Paul and I have a question to ask you. Okay,
so you are the director of Media and Partnerships at
State Farm. There is not anyone that consumes any kind
of media that is not seeing what you're doing. By
the way, shout out to the State Farm guy. He
is very cool, very handsome.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Jake from State Farms.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
He's awfully, he's good, he's good on the eye, good
on the ear, and he's a good spokesperson. But of
the money that you have to kind of allocate in
developing that budget. How are you really find tuning in
There's so much new media coming up all the time
and targets are splintering, and like, how do you lay
out that plan and feel confident that, yeah, this is
the best use of our spend the ROI the role
(32:11):
as row me. However you want to measure it? How
do you do that?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I would say it takes a village. I have a
really good team. We're focused on specific areas and we're
doing some cross learning or cross those to make sure
from a process, a measurement, a data efficiency perspective, we're
thinking about what that media needs to do for us.
We have Optimum Sports and O and D or our
(32:36):
agencies who always have their errors on the ground, giving
us the ability to leverage volume as well as see
things beyond what is right in front of us. And
you know, we really work on building relationships with our partners.
And it's not just a relationships, it's a type of relationship.
You know, we're always open to ideas, we raise our
(32:59):
hands for first to market opportunities, and you know, we're
in a really competitive industry, so we think a lot
about how do we punch above our weight? And that's
where a lot of the pressure comes from. It's making
sure that we're top of mind, people understand, and we're
hitting all of our different KPIs. So it's really complicated.
(33:21):
It's a long process, but there's a lot of hands
in that's making sure we're getting exactly what we need.
So I'm just a piece to a much larger group
around me.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, we talked earlier about what you love about the industry.
On the other side of things, if you could just
snap your fingers and change one thing about our industry,
what would you change.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
The lack of diversity you're trying though, Yeah, but Ross
asked me if I could snap my fingers and change
one thing, right, two snaps of a circle to change that.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, And I don't know if I'm just too close.
So based on where I'm sitting, it's you know, it's
just the effectiveness of media in some areas. I think
in some places I can tell you exactly what our
media is doing, the targeting, the measurement. I think in
other places there's still a long way to go, especially
when you think about some of these upper funnel channels,
(34:12):
and you know a lot of people are operating via
proxies and I think for the sure size of this industry,
we should be a lot more effective. And I think
there's a lot of people trying to solve a lot
of problems, but there's no single source of truth with
a lot of these things. So it's about really getting
to understand what that ROI is and how do you
(34:32):
get a common measurement across every platform so you could
understand that. So there's a lot of work we're doing
on the back end to be as close as possible.
But I think our industry has a long way to
go because we shouldn't have to validate effectiveness when we
know we're driving business outcomes, but a lot of times
(34:53):
you have to, and that's because the tools we have
to help us do that. So again, I think we're
getting closer, but still a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I couldn't agree with you more. And the themes of
this season are both of the things that you guys
just said you wish you could change. So I think
you just nailed at both of you. Let's see one
final one final question, and this one's really about Baldwin,
but it's for Jerry. What is your hope, Jerry for
Baldwin's generation of marketers as they come up into leadership
(35:25):
positions and they begin to become, you know, some of
the biggest executives in our industry. What is your message
to that generation that Baldwin is part of as they
start to embrace that power.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Well, my message to Baldwin, who is an up and
coming marketing leader is, I guess, the same message of BECA.
The Black Executive CMO Alliance, which is the organization that
I co founded with at the time twenty five other
c suite black marketers, recognizing that our talent and our
time and our experiences when not just about us, but
(36:01):
about what we did for others. That the assumption is
is that you're damn good at what it is you do.
That excellence is important to be followed, to be credible,
to be inspirational. And so at the Black Executive CMO Alliance,
what we do is we created this problem called the
BECA Playbook, which gives you those that I talked about,
(36:21):
those kind of those secrets that you don't share, those
breadcrumbs about what it's like when you're in the C suite,
how close you are to the flame, how you show up.
And so we take managers and directors and the cxos
who are the presidents, the CEOs, the cmos. We pour
into all of these sessions. It's one hundred hours plus
(36:42):
of what it's like to be in the C suite, right,
and then we talk about well, what's black about that? Like, Yeah,
you got to get to the C suite, you got
a struggle, you got a hustle, we got to work hard.
But then how did you do it in an authentic
way that allowed you to be you but also to
help others and help others that look like you. And
so my hope would be like for Baldwin as he
(37:03):
is kind of thinking about and figuring out how to
be excellent at what it is he does and continuing
that legacy that he builds time, energy, passion, and addiction
to helping the next generation. Because what we do is
about legacy. And I told you you have to reach
that point where you recognize that it's not just about
(37:24):
you but about others in everything that you do and
say and build, because it's given that you're going to
be good. It's a given that you are in that
role as you are, male, female, black, white, you know, Asian,
whatever group you identify with but then it's like, how
do you leverage that's the what's the leverage that provides
(37:46):
assistance for others? So Becka and the Black Executive CMO
alliance is really about continuing to keep a top of
mind that we are here, but we're here for others
as well.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I love that. That's a tall and you know what
if you let me know if there's anything you can
do to help me do that as well. Right, leask
is clear, and you're setting out, you're setting a playbook.
I would love to tap into you to make sure
you know I'm driving that change with the responsibility and
(38:19):
privilege that I have.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Right now, Well, I get your email address, so you
know I'm gonna be emailing.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I love this so much. The two of you are
so inspiring, not just to me but to all of
our listeners, and I appreciate you both for taking the time.
Your extraordinary in your own ways, and we're all learning
a lot from you both from this episode. So Baldwin Cunningham,
Jerry Devard, thank you both so much for joining us
on future Legends of Advertising.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Thank you and congratulations again. Baulved with congratulations, thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Well, that does it for this episode of the Future
Legends of Advertising podcast on IHEARTT. I'm Ross Martin.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And I'm Heley Romer and thank you for luking. We'll
be back with another episode before you know it. And
for more information on the American Advertising Federation, so to
AAF dot org
Hello, and welcome to season two of the Future Legends
of Advertising podcast on iHeart, featuring the hottest up and
coming stars in advertising as well as the biggest legends
in the game.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In this series, we explore the future of the advertising
industry through never before heard conversations between those who created
it and those who are shaping its future.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're your hosts, Hailey Romer and Ross Martin.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Now let's meet the legends. I got to say before
I introduced these people. I totally won the season because
I said this in the last episode when Haley and
I divided up who's going to do which episodes? I
(00:52):
was like, not that the other episodes suck, they're good,
but they didn't have Baldwin Cunningham and Jerry Devart, and
I got Baldwin and Fart. So this is that episode.
Let me first bring out Baldwin. So I think everyone knows.
He's the director of Media and Partnerships at State Farm. There,
he's accountable for the media budget, sponsorship portfolio. He's got
(01:13):
to drive brand awareness and consideration. He's also got to
drive quote starts for State Farm. So he's got an
intense job and he's coming off of a job that
was also intense, where he was the VP of Client
Sales Lead at Warner Brothers Discovery, where he was driving
revenue across CpG, DTC Finance, insurance. All that, and before that,
(01:33):
he was a VP of Strategy at Britain Co working
for our friend brit So without further ado, the Forbes
thirty Under Thirty Award winner from twenty fifteen, the twenty
nineteen synopsis Rising Star awardee, and the Bumble Business Most
Inspiring New Yorker's very own Baldwin Cunningham, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I should have you introduced me everywhere. Ross. That was great.
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That's what your buddy Chris Paul said when we interviewed him.
I gave him an incredible introduction and then he was like,
you should introduce me when I like play NBA games,
and I told him I'm better than the dude who
does it at Barclay Center. Hey man, thank you for
joining the show. I'm really happy to have you on
the podcast, and I'm very excited about the award you're
about to get. How are you feeling right now?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Well, and thank you again for having me it's sonana
to be here talking to you and Jerry, who I've
known and seen for a long time. You know, heads down,
working hard all the time, but sometimes it's good to
kind of take a step back and celebrate. So I'm
very excited about this award. I'm very excited about the
class of people. They're all awesome, and I'm looking forward
(02:44):
to it.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
It's going to be a big night. November sixteenth and
New York the American Advertising Federation's Advertising Hall of Achievement, which,
as everyone knows, honors executives who are forty and under.
What does it feel like for you when you got
the call? Because I gotta tell you, man, this year
it's always competitive. This was freaking intense, Like we only
(03:06):
can let seven people into this thing. There's only like
two hundred and fifty in it overall, and the Hall
of Achievement's a huge honor. So when you found out
how did that go?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
The first thing I did was call my wife. You know,
I was really excited about it, and she knew that
this process was happening. You know, when you have your
head down, you're working, you're trying to do the best
you can. It's good when the world or your community
or other folks kind of see what you've been working on,
so you kind of validated some of the things that
(03:37):
you don't really get a feedback loop to. So it
was exciting and it made me think that good job
with where I've come, and there's still a long way
to go, but to get an acknowledgement along the way
is great.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, you're paired on this episode with a true icon,
Jerry Devard. We're going to bring her out here in
a second, but how do you feel about this pairing?
Like you're about to have a conversation with Jerry. I
think you guys have met a couple of times. You
sort of know her, but you definitely know who she is,
and what do you think about this conversation you're going
to have with her? What about her career?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Listen, I couldn't be more excited. I think Jerry models
what an executive is and should be. She has a
very polished career in the marketing industry, holding executive level
positions across several big companies that we're all aware of.
But then to be on the other side and dedicate
(04:30):
your life towards changing the infrastructure and the system behind
you is also important. So I'm excited to dig in
and learn more about just the impact during the journey
and what the plan is for after as she still
continues to pave the way.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, I think she doesn't seem to be slowing down,
So let's bring her out. What people know Jerry's doing
right now is called BECA be ECA, the Black Executive
CMO Alliance. She's going to talk about that, but it's
alliance that's designed to champion corporate diversity and help build
the next generation of C suite marketing executives, and god
(05:08):
knows we need help there. But as you pointed out, Baldwin,
she's worked for almost every company that you can think of,
you know, chief customer officer and EVP of office depot
for a long time. She's also held senior roles at Verizon, Citibank, Revlon, Harrah's, NFL, General, Mills, Pills.
(05:29):
But I mean it's like, who has this resume? And
the other thing is she sits on all these boards
and has sat on boards. She's on the under Armour board, Cars,
dot Com, Root Insurance before that, several others. In twenty
twenty one, Advertising Age awarded Jerry with the Vanguard Award,
one of the biggest awards in our industry, and it
(05:50):
follows a long list of accolades. I have so much
deep respect for this human being and I'm so honored
she would come on this podcast. Jerry Debard, welcome to
the show.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Thank you, Ross, it's so good to be here. Before
I even say anything, congratulations Baldwin. That's a BFD being
inducted into the Hall of Achievement, So congratulations, see you
and all the work you've done. And Ross, as always,
it's always amazing to see you. Howg you catch up?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, last time I saw you, I think we were
on the cossette. We're at a castle in south of France,
and I yes, I saw Jerry Varden. I said, I
don't care who I'm talking to. If I see Jerry
Davard at a party, I'm running that way and I'm
going to give her the big gave me the biggest tug.
It's so nice to see you.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I know, time stood still, and you know why.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
You know, there's a lot of what we do and
there's a lot of the impact that we have on others.
And my daughter broke Devardo's Idley had the great fortune
to work for you when she was at Viacom, and
to this day Ross she says that you were one
of the best bosses that she ever had.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Oh, she taught me more than I taught her.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I think when someone says that about you, it's the
real deal. So part of my mom kicks in, part
of my fangirl kicks in when I see you, and
part of my enjoyment of just cool, fun people kicks in.
So it's always going to be around you at Yes,
I almost dropped my last of prosecco when I saw
you because my champagne sorry Champagne, got to know where
(07:21):
it was when I saw you.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I appreciate you and shout out to the Naked Beauty
podcast Brooks podcast, which is unbelievable. So you two, I mean,
there's lots of reasons why the AF and iHeart and
Haley and I decided to pair you, but I think
if I had to boil it down to just one,
I think it's that look. Baldwin and Jerry. You're obviously
(07:45):
incredible marketers. Jerry, you were such a good marketer at
AGT that you convinced me to get ADT from my
house in Brooklyn. So you're both incredible marketers. We all
know that, but I feel like you two are never
operating within the boundaries of your quote job. I think
it's the thing that it doesn't define you, but it
(08:08):
certainly characterizes both of your careers. When I met Baldwin,
I couldn't have even told you what he did at
first at Warner Brothers Discovery because I felt like you
were doing so many things to move that company forward.
And Jerry, same for you throughout your career, but you've
also done it in culture and in community. And I
(08:29):
just I guess I wonder how you both feel about
you get to a job and then I don't think
either of you ever look at the job description after
you get the job, because it's just sort of like
this license for you to innovate. And I guess if
we could just start with Baldwin and then we'll go
to Jerry, where does that come from? Like you just
don't seem to be content doing the job itself. You
(08:51):
always seem to be doing so much more. Do you
feel that way?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
No, I don't feel that way, But I'm also I
see where that comes from. You know, first generation America
and I come from immigrant parents who both work two
jobs just so I can be better. So the work
ethic starts with them. But with every role I came into,
I think there's an idea of what the outcome of
(09:17):
the role should be, and then there's what you're capable
of doing or the impact you can potentially have. So
I always look at, you know, the job at hand
as table stakes, but then what's the impact I'm going
to make? How do I change things on top of
that and just keep pushing things forward a little bit?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And Jerry, it seems to me every time I turn
around there's some You're everywhere and yet you're an incredibly
devoted mother and wife and grandmother now, but I don't
understand how you're doing all that. You're the impact. There's
no way to even calculate all the impact you've had
on our industry and in the communities. Where does that
drive come from for you?
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Well, I think, first of all to say when you
say I'm everywhere everywhere maybe digitally, but not everywhere physically,
because I don't go out to a whole lot of things.
I'm very picky about where I go and what I do.
But I do think that it's important to have a presence.
And I was laughing when you said, you know all
that you do because I'm I've always been guilty of
doing the most, Like I can't do one thing, I
(10:17):
don't know if I can only do five things, And
that's kind of in me. And I think part of
that was just I'm obsessed with doing something and doing
it well, Like don't half askt like why do it
if you're not gonna do it well? And so when
you put that on top of being in an organization
where what you do and how you perform leads to
your reputation and your success, and then later on in
(10:39):
my career of the impact because you know, when I
was in Baldwin shoes, I was just kind of putting
one foot in front of the other, right, And then
somewhere along the way, when you're climbing the ladder, you
realize that it's not about the climb, but it's about
the lift, right, and that you have to turn around
and see, well, wait a minute, who's kind of coming
up behind me? Because people behind you are looking at you,
they're watching everything you do. You don't know it, you're
(11:00):
not thinking about that, and so I think doing a
lot is a because I can. I'm just like wired
that way to do a whole lot of stuff. At
the same time, b I have made the things that
I do the things I want to do, so I'm
busy doing the things I want to do, at least
especially now, versus the things I have to do. And
then I guess the third point would be that I recognize,
(11:23):
accept and am honored by the privilege of representing with
big air quotes my people in that my success is
not just my success but the success of others. And
how I telegraph that and do that I think is
really really important.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Jerry, I do have a question for you on that,
because I like the separation between the climb and the
pole right, and when you put your head into the
climb phase, it's like you've achieved so many things. Was
that based on putting your head down, working hard, and
all the right circumstances prevented them presented themselves to you,
(12:01):
or was that based on having a plan in which
he wanted to intentionally climb. In that perspective, I'm curious,
as someone on that climb side, how are you thinking
when you were in it?
Speaker 4 (12:13):
It was none of the above, and it was humility
born out of failure. Right when I first started my career,
every job I got, it came to me without me
even asking to think about, Oh, they're gonna promote, You're
gonna pro Oh great, great, I'm being promoted. Then all
of a sudden, I didn't get promoteded and I thought, well, well,
what's going on? Wait a minute, and I realized that
(12:35):
I had to kind of now go out and talk
to people about what I was or was not doing,
and getting some real serious feedback about what I wasn't doing,
and then having to ask others to help, and that
I think it was going from being a manager to
being promoted to a director. And then I realized, oh crap,
I can't promote myself. I've got to I've got to
really have people help me. You know. It's like the
(12:56):
village that I needed. And so in being humble by
not getting promoted with everybody else and recognizing that I
needed help, I then asked myself, well who am I
helping and who am I here for? And that's what
really kind of cemented that in me.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Right. So, now going to the pollside, I'm curious, what
do you think is going to be more impactful to
bring more people like you and me into these executive positions.
Is it being the role model and inspiring because I
looked at your LinkedIn it's like, Okay, you inspire me,
and that's enough for some. But on the other side,
(13:35):
it's you got to double click and kind of help
people see what you saw and look around corner. It's like,
what do you think is going to be most impactful
as you look at that climbing pole side.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Well, first of all, don't be fool by You're inspiring
a lot of people, Baldwin, and you know that. Like, so,
don't be fooled by the length of my resume. You
what you've done and where you are and the job
that you sit in and the millions and hundreds of
millions that you control. Someone is watching that and saying, yeah,
that's what I want to do. I also want to
(14:08):
say when I went from the climb to the lift,
it was when I was in rooms when we talked
about succession planning. The first time I had to sit
down and talk about my team and see how it
was presented and what people said, the things they did
say and the things they didn't say, and I thought, Oh,
so this is how the game is being played. Someone
is in viewed as having gravitas. Someone is in viewed
(14:29):
as being quantitative, someone is in viewed as being strategic.
Someone doesn't have the influence of the room. And so
when I started to connect the dots and see what
those people look like, women and people of color, I
was like, oh, okay, so I'm getting the cues. Now
I'm getting the keys. How do I then reach out
to these people to say, how are you approaching this meeting?
You need to say this, do this, ask that person,
(14:51):
build that. So as I got more and more of
the breadcrumbs, I started putting it together to make a
loaf and realizing that because I was in that room
having that conversation, that I couldn't keep it to myself
and I had to find a way, you know, confidentially
without revealing anything to help lift those people up. So
that's the first part of that in terms of the
impact that we can have. So many times when I've
(15:13):
talked to people about you know, people that I've hired
or promoted or put in rooms and podiums where they
can be viewed, because I always think good leaders give
praise for even the work that they've done when their
team has worked for them, and bad leaders take credit.
And so someone said to me one time, well, yeah, Jerry,
you can do that because you were a fill in
(15:34):
the blank. But I'm just a fill in the blank.
And I said, Okay. You may not feel you have
the power to create these opportunities, but you can damn sure.
Ask the questions right, Ask why? Ask why isn't this
person in the room? Ask why don't you have an assignment?
Ask why aren't you being you know, prepared for Assuming
you've told people what you want right, because no one
(15:55):
can need your mind. Ifody wakes up every day, try
to figure out what you want. But assuming that you've
told them that, then I think our opportunity is to
die trying to change whatever sphere of influence we have.
If it's not by doing, it's by asking questions. If
we talk about rooms and organizations where you're you know,
the only male, but you look back at your team
(16:18):
and your whole team is male, then what are you doing?
If you're in a room and you talk about, you
know it not having people of color, and you look
at your own team and there are no people of color.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Than what are you're doing.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So it's holding people accountable but also leading into your
power about changing the normal course of direction.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Love that everyone can make a change.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I wonder Baldwin when you think about the back half
of your career. So there's a funny thing that happens
with the Hall of Achievement is that all these people
call it like the halfway mark in your career, which
I find scary because if you're forty years old, I
don't I don't really want to work until I'm eighty whatever.
So when you look at the back half of your
(17:01):
career from here on right, you take that stage on
the sixteenth you get your award, it's sort of this responsibility.
What are the things that you look at Jerry and
other heroes of ours and you're like, I know what
I want to go do with this responsibility.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
That's an interesting question.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
It's funny with Jerry Head at the beginning of her
last question was you've already done and people are already watching.
So I think it starts off by understanding that you know,
I'm in a position to make the impact and not
letting any external thing validate that time. And you know,
as you're growing in your career, you're trying to figure
(17:39):
out the balance of you know, how much you give
and how much you need to go and do and
execute yourself. But you can execute to give right and
you can kind of bridge those two things together. And
it's really about pulling people along. I've been lucky with
the jobs and the people and the community I've been in,
but at every corner there's been someone who helped pull
(18:02):
me out or helped tell me to look right instead
of left, and I have to honor that and know
that's a part of why I'm here now. The question
is how do I do that to others Because ROSSI
you say this all the time. I always looked like
the person that doesn't fit in. But then I get
into the job and do more than the job asked for.
But that's only because people place the bet on me. Right,
(18:25):
That's because someone helped me see what I'm capable of,
and I'm starting to define that in my own world,
in my own life. So it's about inspiring the other
people that just start right on edge, that can be
the next version or be better than I am, that
just needs to vote of confidence.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Yeah, I was gonna say Baldon. As you were saying
you were figuring it out. It's funny as you're figuring
it out, someone else has already figured it out. So
someone else has already dropped your name, or followed you,
or or wanted to have the confidence or the excellence
or the command of the room that you have, because
(19:02):
in your job there's a lot of responsibility. You know,
you don't get there by luck. And you said luck,
and I'm always you know, like, okay, Really that that
thing about preparation meeting hard work is very true. You know,
nobody was handing out free candy, Baldwin when you showed up, right,
you've earned the right to be there. And I think
that people came out to help you because it's because
(19:24):
they said, yeah, he's got something, and I want to
help him. So when you think about how you want
to pay it forward to how you're paying it forward,
how does that kind of come together and how do
you think about paying it forward?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I started with just thinking about my life and when
I look back, the unknown has always been scary until
it wasn't right. I didn't know what entrepreneurship was until
I met entrepreneurs and then I started a company. I
didn't know what being in corporate America was until I
got into corporate America and I said, Okay, I can
(19:57):
do this. And it's really about when you're at that point,
that edge where you're questioning whether you are capable of
achieving something or not. I want to be the guy
pushing people over because we set limits to ourselves sometimes
and the world is limitless. So I think the more
and more people that can just see themselves on the
(20:17):
other side and know they can make the change they
want to see in the world and they can execute
the things that they're thinking about, the better we're all
going to be. And hopefully I can be that push
for folks.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well, you already are that push. But the industry. Let's
talk about our industry. So we're at a kind of
crazy time for marketers and advertisers. And I feel about
the two of you. You could have been successful in
lots of different industries. What do you both love about
marketing and advertising? What that keeps you in it?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What gets me excited about this industry is the possibilities
not being here. The whole world is a platform, right
and everything we do is driven towards achieving our business goals,
but the route to get there is absolutely endless. It's storytelling,
it's how we execute, It's how you partner, how we're
(21:07):
looking at culture, whether you're young or old, how you're collaborating,
whether you're here or there. And I like this mix
of variables that we just have to be paying attention
to you in order to execute against at any time.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
What I love about this industry is that it shows me.
It shows me before I even knew it, because I
didn't know the idea of persuading people to buy, to prefer,
to consider was a thing like you all walk around
the grocery store wherever we are, and all the brands
that we buy. It's a function of someone getting in
your head around what's best for you. And when I
(21:44):
took a class i was then econ major at Spelman College,
shout out to Spelman College, my wonderful ALBA mater. I
took up class in consumer behavior and it was like wow, okay, yeah,
this is why people do what they do. And I
was just so drawn to it that I knew that
this was something I wanted to do the only thing
that I probably could have also done was to be
in sales in some form or fashion, because as a marketer,
(22:06):
you're always selling an idea, you're selling persuading an organization
to take a path. Some people feel that that path
is subjective, but it's very objective and very data rich
in when you live in a world of data, so
you know what I'm talking about. But I think that
the beauty of being able to decide and create reasons
(22:27):
to purchase and believe and to want, which is very
sexy to me and something that I was like, yeah,
I'm all in on that, even before I knew what
you did with it.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And for me, I kind of also stumbled into marketing.
But I think the core of marketing has always been
something involved in my life, so entrepreneurship. It's building things
that don't exist and solving problems, which is something I
do every day as a marketer. Jerry sells, I was
(23:00):
on a sales side for five years. You're constantly selling,
you know here. I like that it has this mix
between business and solving real business enterprise problems, but then
there's this layer of creativity on top. So marketing is
a collection of all of those things in my past
that I get to exercise on a daily basis.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Yeah, I can't imagine. Like I look at like what
our chief legal officer did, our CFO or supply chain.
It's like, really, that's what you do all day? Okay
do you? But you know we're having fun over here.
But it's tough. I mean, I should say it's tough
because everyone feels that their mother, brothers, sister, lover can
do it better, cheaper, faster, smarter. But you build a
(23:43):
thick skin around that and you just really get into
it and understand the reasons and the data that you
need to persuade.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
There was a real interesting moment in the Chris Paul
episode this season where he was really he was like
the first time he was on a set, which the
most significant set he's ever been on was really State Farm.
But he's also like, did Nike, He did beyond me?
And he was talking about how there's so many people everywhere,
(24:13):
and it's like if the director had a message, he
would pass it to somebody else, who had passed to
somebody else who would pass it to Chris and it'd
be like, we need you to speak a little bit
louder was the message. And he looked at the director.
He's like, bro, why don't you just tell me to
speak louder. You don't have to go all the way
around the whole room here to get to me. But
then he talked about like how much joy he had
(24:35):
in watching the team work together, and I wonder you're
both team leaders and team builders. I wonder if you
could talk about the power of the teams that you
guys have built and led and how you made them
or how you make them so successful.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
That's something I think about a lot, even coming into
this new role just over a year. We talked about
this with even mentees Jerry. It's not about me, it's
about I think the impact I have is how can
I make someone better after working with me? And that's
about the impact. But then currently it's like, how do
we get together to create a better product than anyone
(25:12):
can create as an individual. I think knowing that the
input across different people, different way of thinking, different ways
of life can result into something better for everyone is
what drives me. I'm an active listener as much as
I talk, but I think I listened more than I talked.
That's why you have two ears in one mouth. That's
(25:32):
the quote I live by. But this is this idea that
you can learn from everyone. You need to make people
feel comfortable about being in that environment and knowing that
their input is just as valuable as anyone else is.
As we walk through that journey.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Sometimes, Baldwin, sometimes because I'm going to tell you this
is something that I really, really, really care deeply about,
is good leadership. And because I had some really bad
managers growing up in my career. You know, as I said,
good leaders take blame and give credit. And I recall
(26:10):
many times working like weekends, evenings, all night on a
document from my boss, and I was like, yeah, okay,
you're gonna get to present this. But I wanted there
to be some recognition of what I had done, and
many times there wasn't. And so because of having had
that experience of feeling that I got a kind of
a pat on the head as opposed to, you know,
(26:32):
Jerry's done some of this work, I then started bringing
junior people into meetings with senior leaders. I'd say, look
at the work that you know Sarah did.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
She's great.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Because you then have to have the confidence to give
credit to others. You have to believe that you are
not judged by everything you do, but that the way
you are as a leader. And I was like a
bear with cubs, fiercely protective. Sometimes people felt that it
was overly protective and couldn't be objected, but I knew.
I knew that marketers, you know, were easy to be attacked,
(27:03):
so I knew I had to be able to protect
and defend and prepare them. And so I think that
being a good leader is really this is the golden rule.
Put yourself in that person's place who wakes up every
day trying to do a good job. Have you coached
led us teachable moments to make them better or have
you just thrown them into the deep end and said, yep,
(27:23):
told you they couldn't swim. And I think that because
people poured into me, I wanted the opportunity to do
the same. And it means so much when you're, you know,
coming up in your career and someone kind of like
I see you. Not only do I see you, but
I see that I can help you. And small things
like going to their office for a meeting instead of
having them come to my office, asking them what they
(27:46):
felt when they did raise their hands themselves, asking my
team when I get before I gave you know, after reviews,
I'd say, now give me some feedback and don't tell
me I'm great. Tell me how I can be a
better leader, because I know I can be. So it's
that vulnerability, that humility, that recognizing that. And I always
tell them I'm going to make mistakes. I point out
my mistakes, so no one feels that they have to
(28:07):
be perfect. And a lot of times, people of color
and women, we feel we have to be perfect because
if we show any sign of not being perfect, then
we're not going to get the same chances that other
people get. So in as I said, it's more cracks
in the veneer of the playbook started to show themselves.
I started to then use that, and one of the
(28:27):
things I wanted to be was a good leader. Now
I'm not soft, you could imagine I hold you accountable,
but I'm going to make sure that I'm going to
maximize my role as your leader to make you the
best you you can be.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Jerry, as you think back in your career being on
this side, you mentioned that idea of perfection, right, do
you still think that holds true? Is that just something
you thought while you were doing it and now that
you look back, was that the right way to be
thinking or read just overthinking it.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Well, that was not the right way to be thinking it.
I can tell you that that was a mistake because
I would stay up at night. I would stay up
the last person to leave the office. And I wasn't
doing it for brownie points. I was doing it so
I could be prepared, like I'm going to be prepared.
And I think it's because me as a black woman,
I felt that I couldn't go in and say I
didn't have the answer or that everything wasn't perfect. But
(29:20):
the problem with that is what I should have said
was I'm doing this, what do you think? I need
your help? And I need your help is not saying
I can't do it. It's like I value your experience,
your judgment, you're coaching, and I it took me too
long to come to the comfort of saying I need
your help. I had thoughts about it, and so I
see it now though still bolb and that posture syndrome
(29:43):
that many people face, like Okay, I'm just like here
on a humbug and they're going to discover me sooner
or later. People still feel that way and that needs
to stop. And so yes, it was prevalent for me
because I felt that the only way I could get
a hit was to be the smartest person in the room.
That if you're the smartest person in the room, you're
in the wrong room. But that the vulnerability and the
(30:05):
confidence to know that I didn't have to have all
the answers. So when people feel that they can't ask
for help, they haven't built a strong enough network. If
they've built a strong enough network and they haven't asked
for help, then that means that there is a bit
of fear of failure as opposed to arrogance. Because it's
not like I felt I had all the answers.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
It was like, oh hey, I don't have it.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
I got to figure this out. This was even before Google,
So you know, don't suffer in silence. And the worst
is don't fake the funk. If you don't know it,
don't act like you do, because anybody can double click
underneath that and expose you, you know, for fraud.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I love that and I love the vulnerability tie. I mean,
that's something I try to do often. We all make mistakes,
but it's a comfort level we need people to have
in being true to themselves and putting things out there
and letting us all grow together versus trying to do
it alone. They say, you want to go fast on alone,
(31:00):
you want to go far run together and just understanding
like what your input is to the together is. I
think that's an ongoing journey. But I love that help
comment because it is hard, right. It's like with everything
you can figure out and develop and learn in this world,
the last thing you want to show is that you're
not capable. But sometimes that's not the end goal. Sometimes
(31:24):
the end goals for us to work together to get
the capability. And I think that's a great nugget for that.
I'm going to run with from Aaron out well.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
But so Paul and I have a question to ask you. Okay,
so you are the director of Media and Partnerships at
State Farm. There is not anyone that consumes any kind
of media that is not seeing what you're doing. By
the way, shout out to the State Farm guy. He
is very cool, very handsome.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Jake from State Farms.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
He's awfully, he's good, he's good on the eye, good
on the ear, and he's a good spokesperson. But of
the money that you have to kind of allocate in
developing that budget. How are you really find tuning in
There's so much new media coming up all the time
and targets are splintering, and like, how do you lay
out that plan and feel confident that, yeah, this is
the best use of our spend the ROI the role
(32:11):
as row me. However you want to measure it? How
do you do that?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I would say it takes a village. I have a
really good team. We're focused on specific areas and we're
doing some cross learning or cross those to make sure
from a process, a measurement, a data efficiency perspective, we're
thinking about what that media needs to do for us.
We have Optimum Sports and O and D or our
(32:36):
agencies who always have their errors on the ground, giving
us the ability to leverage volume as well as see
things beyond what is right in front of us. And
you know, we really work on building relationships with our partners.
And it's not just a relationships, it's a type of relationship.
You know, we're always open to ideas, we raise our
(32:59):
hands for first to market opportunities, and you know, we're
in a really competitive industry, so we think a lot
about how do we punch above our weight? And that's
where a lot of the pressure comes from. It's making
sure that we're top of mind, people understand, and we're
hitting all of our different KPIs. So it's really complicated.
(33:21):
It's a long process, but there's a lot of hands
in that's making sure we're getting exactly what we need.
So I'm just a piece to a much larger group
around me.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, we talked earlier about what you love about the industry.
On the other side of things, if you could just
snap your fingers and change one thing about our industry,
what would you change.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
The lack of diversity you're trying though, Yeah, but Ross
asked me if I could snap my fingers and change
one thing, right, two snaps of a circle to change that.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, And I don't know if I'm just too close.
So based on where I'm sitting, it's you know, it's
just the effectiveness of media in some areas. I think
in some places I can tell you exactly what our
media is doing, the targeting, the measurement. I think in
other places there's still a long way to go, especially
when you think about some of these upper funnel channels,
(34:12):
and you know a lot of people are operating via
proxies and I think for the sure size of this industry,
we should be a lot more effective. And I think
there's a lot of people trying to solve a lot
of problems, but there's no single source of truth with
a lot of these things. So it's about really getting
to understand what that ROI is and how do you
(34:32):
get a common measurement across every platform so you could
understand that. So there's a lot of work we're doing
on the back end to be as close as possible.
But I think our industry has a long way to
go because we shouldn't have to validate effectiveness when we
know we're driving business outcomes, but a lot of times
(34:53):
you have to, and that's because the tools we have
to help us do that. So again, I think we're
getting closer, but still a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I couldn't agree with you more. And the themes of
this season are both of the things that you guys
just said you wish you could change. So I think
you just nailed at both of you. Let's see one
final one final question, and this one's really about Baldwin,
but it's for Jerry. What is your hope, Jerry for
Baldwin's generation of marketers as they come up into leadership
(35:25):
positions and they begin to become, you know, some of
the biggest executives in our industry. What is your message
to that generation that Baldwin is part of as they
start to embrace that power.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Well, my message to Baldwin, who is an up and
coming marketing leader is, I guess, the same message of BECA.
The Black Executive CMO Alliance, which is the organization that
I co founded with at the time twenty five other
c suite black marketers, recognizing that our talent and our
time and our experiences when not just about us, but
(36:01):
about what we did for others. That the assumption is
is that you're damn good at what it is you do.
That excellence is important to be followed, to be credible,
to be inspirational. And so at the Black Executive CMO Alliance,
what we do is we created this problem called the
BECA Playbook, which gives you those that I talked about,
(36:21):
those kind of those secrets that you don't share, those
breadcrumbs about what it's like when you're in the C suite,
how close you are to the flame, how you show up.
And so we take managers and directors and the cxos
who are the presidents, the CEOs, the cmos. We pour
into all of these sessions. It's one hundred hours plus
(36:42):
of what it's like to be in the C suite, right,
and then we talk about well, what's black about that? Like, Yeah,
you got to get to the C suite, you got
a struggle, you got a hustle, we got to work hard.
But then how did you do it in an authentic
way that allowed you to be you but also to
help others and help others that look like you. And
so my hope would be like for Baldwin as he
(37:03):
is kind of thinking about and figuring out how to
be excellent at what it is he does and continuing
that legacy that he builds time, energy, passion, and addiction
to helping the next generation. Because what we do is
about legacy. And I told you you have to reach
that point where you recognize that it's not just about
(37:24):
you but about others in everything that you do and
say and build, because it's given that you're going to
be good. It's a given that you are in that
role as you are, male, female, black, white, you know, Asian,
whatever group you identify with but then it's like, how
do you leverage that's the what's the leverage that provides
(37:46):
assistance for others? So Becka and the Black Executive CMO
alliance is really about continuing to keep a top of
mind that we are here, but we're here for others
as well.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I love that. That's a tall and you know what
if you let me know if there's anything you can
do to help me do that as well. Right, leask
is clear, and you're setting out, you're setting a playbook.
I would love to tap into you to make sure
you know I'm driving that change with the responsibility and
(38:19):
privilege that I have.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Right now, Well, I get your email address, so you
know I'm gonna be emailing.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I love this so much. The two of you are
so inspiring, not just to me but to all of
our listeners, and I appreciate you both for taking the time.
Your extraordinary in your own ways, and we're all learning
a lot from you both from this episode. So Baldwin Cunningham,
Jerry Devard, thank you both so much for joining us
on future Legends of Advertising.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Thank you and congratulations again. Baulved with congratulations, thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Well, that does it for this episode of the Future
Legends of Advertising podcast on IHEARTT. I'm Ross Martin.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And I'm Heley Romer and thank you for luking. We'll
be back with another episode before you know it. And
for more information on the American Advertising Federation, so to
AAF dot org
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