Michael Kassan and Bing Chen

Michael Kassan and Bing Chen openly share intimate details on their vast experiences, their spiritual journeys and what matters most. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
I think of myself inverts, not nouns. To be pedantic.
I've never called myself leader or CEO or anything like that,
because if you are, then you don't need to say it,
and if you aren't, you busy doing it. I will
give you the words that I think we need to
focus on as an industry over the next period. Trust, transparency, talent, technology,
and transformation. I suspect if you start a sentence with

(00:30):
any of those words or a conversation, you will engage
in a really good conversation with people in our industry
around those words. Hello, and welcome to the Future Legends
of Advertising podcasts featuring newly inducted members of the American
Advertising Federations Hall of Achievement and those in the Hall

(00:51):
of Fame. In this series will compare notes, gain insights,
and explore the future of the advertising industry through never
before heard conversations between these those who are shaping it.
You'll meet industry icons like Fosama St John's, Daisy Expositailla,
Deborah Wall, and future ones, including leaders from the most
impactful brands, agencies, and media platforms in the world. We're

(01:14):
your host Hailey Romer and Ross Martin now let's meet
the legends. Welcome Michael and Bang. This podcast, as you
may know, is called The Future Legends of Advertising and
the goal of this podcast was to pair actual legends
with those who are creating the future. And thinking about
the opening for the episode today, it occurred to me

(01:35):
that if we had to name the legends in advertising,
it would be none other than Michael Cassett. And it's
actually embarrassing to do this introduction because Michael, there's no
natural way to call down the list of achievements that
you have so that we have time for an actual conversation.
So bear with me, Michael is I think I'll cover
only a fraction of all you have done and all

(01:56):
that you do do for our industry, And where I'll
start is with you having truly been the most transformative
figure in the industry since stepping directly into the scene
back in the nineties when Michael was president and CEO
of Initiative Media. Two things stand out as most important
during Michael's time there. The first is emphasizing the need

(02:17):
to strategically diversify the portfolio of the company, and the second,
of course, is growing media billings from one and a
half billion to over ten billion in revenue during his tenure.
Twenty years later, Michael went on to found Media Length
because he saw a unique opportunity to help connect the
dots between advertising, media, content services, sales, and technology. And

(02:39):
to this day, Michael truly sits at the center of
all of it as a unique trusted advisor to literally
everyone across the industry and all they do, which is
everything from agency reviews to executive search, talent advisory, data
and tech solutions, corporate and brand transformation, trade marketing, you
name it, media link does it. Michael's work, of course,

(03:01):
has not gone unnoticed. He's been recognized by everyone, including
at Age as the top media executive and ad Weeks
Power one hundred on Varieties index of the five hundred
the most influential business leaders shaping the global entertainment industry,
and he's even been named to Hollywood Reporters Silicon Beaches
list of most powerful digital players in l a In

(03:24):
Though Michael was inducted into the Advertising Hall of Fame
with the a AAP, he's a board director on the
AD Council, sits on the board of the National Association
of Television program Executives and the Global Advisory Board of
the Warton Future of Advertising Program, plus so much more.
Michael Casson, thank you so much for joining us. It's

(03:45):
great to have you here, Haley, thank you. And I
always marvel when you describe the travels of my evil
twin brother, but thank you. And it's humbling to join
friends like you and Ross and Being and have a conversation.
So I'm just excited to be here and you know,

(04:06):
share a couple of anecdotes and have some fun. Amazing, Michael,
great to see you being. Welcome to the show as well.
Let me introduce Being Chen. People think of being as
an impact founder, an investor, a builder of new worlds.
He's the executive chairman and the founder of AU Holdings,

(04:29):
which is the family of companies that invest in stories
and systems that rebalance socio economic equity for multicultural communities.
No small challenge. He's also the executive chairman, chief executive
officer and co founder of the already legendary Gold House.

(04:52):
So Gold House, if you don't know it yet, then
you shouldn't be listening to this podcast. The premier collective
of multicultural leaders dedicated to systemically unlocking socio economic equity.
For multicultural communities and doing it through unity investments and promotions.

(05:12):
I first heard of bing Chen when he was the
global head of Creator Development and Management for YouTube, and
when he was there, he was the original and the
principal architect of the multibillion dollar influencer ecosystem. That's why
Haley I think of him as the creator of the

(05:35):
creator business, which I think he could He could take
that line if he wants it after this um when
he was when he was at YouTube, he was responsible
for the worldwide program strategy that engaged more than three
hundred million content creators across seventy countries, and he co

(05:56):
led ventures that developed the creator A to me into
what it is today, including the evolution of the YouTube
Partner program alongside its incubator. Like I said, if you've
not heard of bing Chen, you've not been in this industry.
He's been in Forbes, Hollywood Reporter, ABC News, honored by

(06:17):
ad Color, the Asia Society, Fast Company, Business Insider, add Week,
the World Economic Forum. But of all these achievements, I
think what I like most about being Chen is that
he graduated from Penn with a degree in creative writing.
I don't know if everyone knows that, and hopefully at

(06:39):
some point in today's episode he'll share it with us.
He's also from Knoxville, Tennessee, which I don't think a
lot of people know, so Knoxville's very own bing Chen.
Welcome to our show. As with this podcast, the less
famous person since Dolly Pardon has that crowd and casting
is of course god um, it's such a film is

(07:01):
to be here. I also still cannot believe Ross and
at least spend so much time given their busy schedules,
so thank you for that. I also have to say, Michael,
not to be sycophantic. I've obviously known about you since
I was probably twenty three, when I was a lowly
level four or five at you two because one of
my best friends, Grant Gitlind you changed his life. Uh,
and so we became friends because I think we have
the same high functioning a d H d um and

(07:23):
so obviously adores you. So yeah, I love Grant, as
you know. So I didn't know about connection, and thank
you for reminding me. So Michael, I know you're gonna
say that I'm making you feel old when I say this,
but you did very recently just a year ago, two
years ago, you were inducted into the Advertising Hall of Fame.
The American Advertising Federation is an organization I know you

(07:47):
believe in, and it's been very active in with me
for years. Um, and you know, I remember when you
were inducted. It was a really powerful moment, not just
for you and your family, but for all of us
who care about you personally and have been inspired by you,
uh for a long time. And then just a week
and a half ago, Bing Chen had a huge moment

(08:11):
in the spotlight of his own and the a f
inducted him into its Advertising Hall of Achievement, which is
really like I guess, supposed to be in like the
halfway mark in your career. Ish. I wonder, Michael, if
you can like look back at at like you know,
when you were under forty and and I think we

(08:34):
would all agree like none of us had achieved half
of what Being Chen has achieved under forty. But when
you look at him and you and you acknowledge the
work that he's already doing. What is your advice to
Being Chen about the boat second half of his career?
Where is he supposed to go with this? From here?
What I would say is the great accolade and and

(08:56):
and and tribute that you received as being part of
the Hall of Achievement, which is the front door to
this industry. I'm proud to say that my former partner
and still my good friend, Wendam Allard, who was a
recipient of the Haul of Fame Award this past year.
She was a recipient. She's the first person that was

(09:18):
both a recipient of the Hall of Achievement and then
at the back half of her career Paul of Fame.
So one thing you can do is aspire to that.
There's only one person that's done that. That's, as I said,
my former partner, Wendom a large So Number one, keep
your head down. Number two, you know, don't scratch where

(09:39):
it doesn't edge. What you've done is remarkable in the
period of time that you've done it. And just keep
doing it. And I know that sounds kind of okay, great,
that was off the shelf, but truly, you know, find
the things that you're passionate about by doing the things
that you're good at. I asked Jeffrey Katzenberg once, how

(09:59):
do you developed talent? What do you advise people young
people about their careers? I said, This was several years ago.
I said, in the industry, we're suffering from a dearth
of talent. And that wasn't even when we were focused
as we should have been even then on diversity and
other things, but we were just there was a dearth
of talent in general. Yeah, of any safe shape and size.

(10:23):
And I said, what do you, how do you what
do you advise young people? He said, you know, I
listen to young people say I want to do the
things I'm passionate about. He said, my pragmatic advices, do
the things you're good at, and you'll become passionate about
it in your workplace. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do
other things that you want to get better at, but
for what you do for your day job, if you

(10:45):
will and do the things you're good at and the
passion will come. I found that to be really good advice.
And so I would say that is a lesson that
I've taken. Uh, you know, great time to focus on
number one. Number two chronology g is just a number. Uh.
And so so I don't look at it through the
lens that I've done this by this age and what's

(11:06):
by that age. I just look at it as we're
in a world where experience matters, and if you take
those experiences and what I treamed Grant Gitland when I
hired him in that first time as a chief of stuff,
I said, you're just got to be like a sponge.
And I told him from my perspective, I knew and

(11:28):
I know that I'm not a linear thinker. So what
I've told the people that have been in that role
or people that I have the good fortune to mentor
is I can't write a linear lesson plan because I
don't think in that fashion. With me, you learn from
just watching. I don't script anything. There were notes for

(11:50):
this call, but I haven't read them. I'm honest enough
to say that because it's not that I know everything,
but I feel like you you conjure up the answers
based on the context and the question and the people
and the moment you read the room. So you know,
I'm giving you a little bit of a tidbit. But
what i'd say is, be that sponge walk around with

(12:11):
a little pad of paper and write down questions. I'm
not kidding when I say that, even you know, based
on what you've already achieved, you still have questions, write
those questions down and find the people that you can
rely on to help answer those questions, whilst at the
same time you're in a position where you're answering a
hell of a lot of questions for a hell of

(12:31):
a lot of people based on what you've achieved. So
I don't know if I was just meandering there, but
I hope I landed on an answer to your question.
My answers are usually questions, so so to take this
into media effect, ME ask actually two questions on that, Michael.
The first is alluding to what you said earlier about
keep your head down and so forth. Um. One of
the things I most admire about you is you're a

(12:52):
convener of conveners and sort of an architect of industries
where there is no sort of structure platform and and
I think the first part of this question is as
you about in anyone as you rise, you inevitably are
exposed to people who, let's say, are incongruous with your
own values, ethics, and or just modus operende. Unfortunately, you
also have the misfortune of being this convener, and so

(13:13):
it's not like you can just excommunicate everyone whenever you
want because you are the industries set a platform. How
do you decide and what tears and what modes who
you engage in? How Because I'm personally finding this really
tough because every week there's a new asshole that pops up. Well,
I do subscribe to the no asshole factor in my
life under the heading of life's too short, I don't

(13:34):
have patience for certain things and and and one is
the asshole effect. I just I can't do it. You know,
I started my career as a lawyer, so I can't
help but tell you my favorite lawyer, Jim right, because
it involves assholes. Okay, so you know the story of
the guy who walks up to the bar and says
that the bartender I hate lawyers. All lawyers are assholes.

(13:55):
The guy standing next to him says, I resent that.
He says, why are you a lawyer? Says no, I'm
an asshole. So you know you just gotta it, just
gotta go with asht So exactly exactly no. But but look,
I tell people, it's funny you say that, because I've
been blessed to have some convenient power. I take that

(14:18):
as a compliment, and I say thank you for that.
But what I tell people is I am exclusive in
my inclusivity, and that's not a contradiction. I'm a very
inclusive person by nature. I have a big tent, if
that expression you can use anymore, and that big tent

(14:40):
involves lots of different people, but no assholes are allowed.
I'm less concerned about their you know, title or there
you know, gravitas or there whatever. I'm way more concerned
about being inclusive. And another lesson I've always learned we
all have friends who have big jobs and then they don't.

(15:06):
I was a great lesson by Dennis Holt, who brought
me into this business, and he said, when you have
a friend, this goes to the convening and the inclusivity.
When you have a friend that's got a big job,
you speak to them once a week. When they don't
have that job, you speak to them twice a week.
All of that. It's a great lesson in life because

(15:26):
we've all been there. I know what it was like
to walk into a room with an eleven billion dollar
budget and then the next day, when I left into public,
I walked into the room with no budget, and then
that you really judge who your friends are because when
you have an eleven billion dollar budget, everyone's your friend.
Let's let's be real. When you have no budget, then

(15:49):
you really have to determine who your friends are. I
was very fortunate. I was disappointed almost never on who
my friends were when I didn't have a budget. And
so I've had a good experience in my life in
that context. Others not so much. But I will tell
you one of the lessons of the of of of

(16:09):
the long road of life is always remember that when
they have the job once a week, when they don't
have the job twice a week. Obviously that's symbolic, but
in my case literal. I love that rule so much.
It reminds me of something my mother used to say,
if you have to find blood over water, and and
the blood relationships, of course are those that will call
you when you have no budget, when you know, when

(16:31):
you don't have set of the fancy job. I'm curious,
and I suspect I know the answer to this, but
um the not not invokes that our history. But the
way that you were first described to me from Grant
was you are a one sort of the creator of creators.
So fun sorry Ross on that second is Olivia Pope,
but for every industry. Uh, but then also had the

(16:51):
deepest rollodex that was always a gold phone that someone
would pick up on the other side. So my question
is the onset of CRMs and sort of you know,
visceral rolodex is. And again I suspect to know what
the answer is to this, But what's the real secret
to create and growing and sustaining. What I think a
lot of people would argue is the world's richest directory
that always picks up your call and always says yes, truth,

(17:13):
transparency in relationships, respect. I mean, they're the obvious things.
And so I hope those are the answers you were
looking for, because again, there are two other people on
this call that I've enjoyed that relationship with over the years,
in good times and bad times for all of us,
in times of success and in times of less success

(17:35):
and in times of so it's just it's consists being consistent,
and it's actually caring and it's actually listening. You know,
my grandmother gave me a lot of good old adages,
but she said relationships must go through four seasons, just
like life. So just take that and apply it to life.

(17:56):
Summer winter, spring, and fall. You know, good times, bad time,
in between times, you've gotta be there, you gotta care.
It's got to be sincere. People know. The bullshit detectors
are really high on most people today, and so authenticity
matters in relationship and in brand and the ability to
count on somebody is done. Yeah, you know, I think

(18:19):
that's right. And Michael, you hit on a word when
you said authenticity. It's a buzzword. Everybody loves to say
you need to be authentic. But to your point, I
think you you really do know when someone's not. It's
obvious to us, Haley. I mean, you know, we all know,
like you don't really mean that, you know. I was.
I was in a tiff with somebody once famous, and

(18:40):
both the person and the tiff and this person had
a penchant to send out holiday greetings two around the
particular holidays on the Jewish calendar, and um, I got
what I know was a standard greetings from somebody that
was not sincere and was not authentic at least it

(19:01):
was as it was directed to me, and I took
exception to it after the holidays, being in respect of
the the holy days, if you will, I sent that
person a note, and I said, you don't mean what
you said in that note, because in that note you
said you wish me and my family well, and I
know that's not true. So I would ask you not

(19:22):
to use a holiday backdrop as something tantamount to spam
because you don't mean it and it mattered to me,
So don't send it to me. I kind of added in,
I guess I'm on your Jewish list as opposed to
your whatever list, so I get the Jewish greeting, but
you're not sincere about it. And you could say, was
it really necessary to take that person to task on it?

(19:44):
In my case, it was not because I needed the
last word, but because I wanted to establish that authenticity matters,
like don't send me, uh, you know, spam because I
know it's not true. So I hope that you know
is responsive. I don't know that that was a question,
but you know, is an illustration of that authenticity goes
both ways, not only in you dealing with the person,

(20:07):
but how the person deals with you. Absolutely being I
want to jump on something you said just as Ross
introduced you. You said you had heard of Michael because
he changed someone's life or any of us would agree
that Michael changed many people's lives. UM, I would be
remiss not to point out the fact that you have
and are very actively doing that same thing. So at

(20:30):
the Advertising Hall of Achievement you won the Jack Avreite
Garrett Award. You were recognized among your peers for that award.
I have to say that the acceptance speech, if we're
calling it, that you gave was among the most inspiring
talks I've heard in a really long time, and in
that room alone, you clearly did have an impact on

(20:52):
so many people's lives. But doing what you do, and
given how much you've seen this path toward the future
and created opportunities for people in ways that they have
not had access to before, you are changing people's lives.
So maybe talk a little bit about what that's like
for you, certainly being UM in the early part of

(21:13):
your career, but in general, talk a little bit also
about the sense of responsibility you very clearly feel in
being a leader and a mentor and a role model
for so many people in this industry as well as
within the Asian American community, etcetera. Uh, it's such hype phrase. UM,
I think I think similar to cass, I shouldn't even

(21:35):
say that I'm not your level, but but I think
similar to other people I admire, Um, I only have
sort of elements. I don't think I have a sequential formula.
Um So. I think one is I think of myself
and verbs not nouns. To be pedantic, I've never called
myself a leader or ceo or anything like that, because
if you are, then you don't need to say it,
and if you aren't, you busy doing it. Um So,
I said, I'd say that's one. In terms of where

(21:55):
the impetus of the work comes from, it comes from
like an odd in sort of deep appreciation for death.
Um and so I was, unfortunately watched my father passed
away when I was fifteen, and when that happened, Uh,
I immediately tried to figure out why we are sort
of living. Uh. And whoever you read Socrates, Aristotle and

(22:15):
so forth, they'll all tell you the single greatest imperative
for our species is self actualization, also known as the
media of life. And unfortunately, we have a universal deadline
to this, which of course is death. And to extrapolate further,
death is our only certainty as a species. A fourth
of women have miscarriages, including my own mother from my
younger brother. So birth is not guaranteed. A good career

(22:36):
and impact is not guaranteed. Um, good familiar relationships and
more than half of marriages and divorced in this country,
if you couldify that as relationships, that that is not guaranteed.
And so the end is the only thing we have
in common. And so I think, especially after that happened,
and also being a third culture kid and feeling like
I never belonged anywhere, I think it forces you to reconcile. Okay, well,

(22:57):
how do we make everyone feel like they belong? And
the highest form belonging is that self realization and so
um that's been the thrust of my entire life span.
I think at a practical level, outside of you three, um,
the people that have done this is the highest levels
are the Walt Disneys, the oprah Winfreeze, who just created
these worlds for people to express themselves, fully monetize it

(23:19):
so they could actually be sustainable and so forth. Um.
That's why I went to YouTube. I applied I applied
to Google for YouTube in college because I thought YouTube
was that new Walt Disney company that could really make
dreams come true, as as Michael knows, because he was
complicit in YouTube's rise since the beginning. Um YouTube back then,
and really no one was looking at it. Is sort
of a creator economy if anything that really wanted to

(23:40):
be HBO slash Netflix. Um. So you know, you license
a bunch of premium content trojan Horse that originals. Um.
But that I think the impetus for creating creators was
how do you enable anyone to make their dreams come true? Um?
Same thing with gold House. Now, gold House started out
focusing on Asians because we all know large networks begin
niche the gold House really is not about building the
world's form by Asians. It's actually about honing the world's

(24:02):
largest majority who are Asians, for an affillion people for
everyone's gain. Um. And so so I think that's the
second piece of sort of where this comes from. And
then I think third, uh to your question, heally about
sort of responsibility how we go about it? I think
today every every day it changes sort of like a
sort of like there's like a catastrophe carousel that goes
on in this work. As you all know, I can

(24:22):
only imagine what it's like from Michael because it has
all these very important people lambasting and also celebrating him
at once, because no good dude goes and punished. But
that today's for me is is the whole new levels
new Devil's thing, where it's inevitable if you do anything new,
you'll piss off probably at least half of people, because
humans typically gravitate to polarities, and it's very difficult to
live in grays um. And and as much as I'd

(24:43):
like to say that I give no ships about when
anyone thinks, who is you know, not equipped, not credential
the realities, at some point volume matters and frequency matters,
especially when it comes from the smallest peoples getting frequent
voices because it's novel. And so I'm that that's that's
what I'm dealing with today of how do we ensure
that we're being as thoughtful as inclusive as possible with
our work, knowing that it will never hit everyone, knowing

(25:06):
that it's already pissing off a lot of people too. Um,
So sorry, I'm I'm doing the whole trump of this.
First of all, do not apologize. I'm in awe just
listening to you, So do not apologize. You took my
breath away on every word you just said. Yeah, and
and words matter and and and what you just articulated

(25:26):
was elegant, thoughtful, spiritual, intellectual, and educational all in one.
So thank you for that. I'll tell my mother. She'll
be very pleased to hear that, because she still has
no idea what I'm doing. She's never known, but she
knows who you are. And I just want to say
that I think, Michael, the word you just use as spiritual,

(25:49):
I think that the spiritual nature of you and with
which you think about the world, the lens through which
you think about things and your experience, is probably the
outlying characteristic trait that makes you such a gravitational force.
And I love that. So I agree with you, Michael,
I think, yeah, fantastic. Speaking of gravitational forces, I've now

(26:13):
had the pleasure of seeing you both in very public
situations where you step up to the mic and are
expected to say something meaningful, and it's your two of
the only people I know in this industry that when
you stand up before us, everyone shuts the fuck up

(26:33):
and they just like like they're just ready to receive
whatever you're going to deliver. And I guess the question
I have for you guys, is like, this is a
really difficult time for a lot of people in our
industry and in adjacent industries. It's really hard for a
lot of our peers and colleagues to get up in

(26:55):
the morning and still have faith in themselves and in
what they're trying to achieve. Where does your faith come from?
Both of you? Where are you getting that seemingly endless
amount of energy and strength and focus and passion that
we were all feeding off of you two? Where are

(27:15):
you getting that? I'll take a whact at that, Russ.
I get it first from the place that I always
put first, which is my family. So I get that
strength from my family, always have, always will. It's a
It's a fountain of strength and sustenance for me. You know,
I've said many many times on um stages or in

(27:42):
one on one conversations, I split my life into thirds.
And I've done this my whole life. I split my
life into a third from my family, a third from
my business, and a third form my community. And I've
done that for seventy two years, or at least as
long as I can remember, and that will never change.
And I think of things in thirds, you know, And

(28:04):
I'll tell you one anecdote. I used this anecdote at
the Hall of Fame back in but it's more than
an anecdote to me, It's a way of life. I
told the story of baseball as a as a backdrop,
and I said, um, as as one looks at their
career or careers in my case, because I've had several,

(28:26):
um you look at it like batting average. In the
history of Major League Baseball, there's only been twenty eight
players who achieved a lifetime batting average of three. Thirty
three were better, and twenty seven of those players are
in the Hall of Fame. So when I stood up
to it be inducted into the Hall of Fame, I said,

(28:49):
I likened myself to a baseball player. I've had at
least three different careers. Started as a tax lawyer, ended
up running a large media agents see and then creating
and and thankfully having the success that we've enjoyed at menially.
And I said, guess that the fact that I'm standing

(29:10):
here accepting an induction into the Hall of Fame means
that it was true I got a hit at least
one out of three times and I got it into
the Hall of Fame. So, um, you know, I look
at that as a journey. I look at that is
what you have to do. I gained strength from my family,
I gained strength from my business, and I gained strength

(29:32):
from my community. And that's how I channel it back
into the community that I live in, which is the
world community, not just as you said, not just our
industry in the adjacent industries, but the people we interact with.
So that's where I get my strength from. I'd love
to know where you get yours from being because man,
do you have strength. It's called macha. It's the new

(29:54):
Coffee's super great, is wonderful. Um No, I think I hate,
I hate to be redundant. But and obviously we'll see,
you know, in a decade if if this still sort
of persist. But um, I definitely say it's my father
and my mother who I think instilled all parrot Einstein
when he said, um, that you can live your life
as if everything is a miracle, and as if nothing is,

(30:17):
and if we only have a finite period of time here,
we have to treat everything like a miracle, even sort
of the most you know, modest minutia. I think the
two secrets and miracles are one. Most miracles are actually
human made. So most things within life, with the exception
of let's say, natural disasters, are actually within our control
um entirely. UM. I think the second pieces, where they're

(30:39):
not in our control, for those of us who do
have control, we have a responsibility to give that control
away to everyone else. Um. And so so I think
about on that end. I'm sorry to keep naming old
white men, which I'm going to get canceled by one
of my companies for this. But uh, but as Mark
Twain once said, the first half of your life you
spend amassing, massing, amassing, and the second half your life
you spend it giving everything away. And never have I

(31:01):
known that to be true more than my father, who
was a fortune CFO and then lost everything because he
died um for that to be true. And so I
think I think that that motivation of knowing that we
have to live live as if everything is a miracle,
as if miracles are within our holding, and with the
responsibility we have to give it to many these people
as possible, I think, is it. UM. I think at
a practical level that also sounds really privileged and easy

(31:23):
to say it for middle class, but if you're part
of the Americans and the majority of the world who
are not, it's a lot harder to stomach that, And
so I would stay on that end. There's this sort
of annoying thing that platforms like Instagram do it, as
we all know, like idolizing sort of success and beauty
and vanity and all that sort of stuff. But the
reality is that form of thriving today, I think is

(31:43):
just surviving. Um. It's another way surviving this next period,
especially in this sort of economic processive phase, is thriving.
If you come out of the other side of pandemic,
you are thriving. You come out of the other side
of a recession, you are thriving. And so I think
with that in mind, at a practical level, we just
have to be a lot smarter with our money. We
have to say we have to care more about profitability

(32:03):
than growth right now. Um Um, Yeah, that was meandering
at the end, not at all. It's hard to follow,
Michael Kassa. I love that you say that, because as
the observer, I'm just thinking, gosh, it's hard to follow
both of you, and I think that, Um, clearly you

(32:24):
both bring so much to the table in terms of experience.
As you said, UM, experience matters, Michael, and I agree
with you, and I think whether you have those experiences
as a young child, or you have the experiences as
an adult or someone who's had um decades and decades
worth of a career, whatever it is, you should, UM,
make sure that you're using it to the best of

(32:44):
your ability. Well, I think you've both started extremely meaningful conversations, um,
and we're counting on you to lead us forward. I
would also suggest that if we're going to make a
prediction here being Chan is going to be the motherfucking
president of the United States, and Michael Casson, I would

(33:05):
suggest you have a role to play making that happen.
Haley and I are happy to serve on the cabinet
at your discretion, both of you. But UM, I I
just I speak for both of us when I say
that we we we could never thank you enough for
for doing this, for what you're doing for the industry
and your communities. Uh, and for how inspiring you are

(33:27):
to all of the listeners of our podcast. You know,
when we sat down to do this, we were trying
to figure out which would be the best pairs, like
how do you put like the legend and the future
legend together in a way that it's gonna make sense
to anybody and that you two would get something out
of it. But the pairing of Michael Casson and Bing

(33:49):
Chen was the first and most obvious one to us
in all of the episodes, because we knew we would
be able to have this kind of moment with you
that would inspire not just the people who are in
marketing today, but the next generation and the generation after that.
So I can't thank you both enough, uh for for
joining us on this any last words before we say goodbye,

(34:12):
I don't want to. I'm personally both thrilled to have
been part of this conversation and blown away by listening
to being Chen Hailey Rohmer and Ross Martin and just
being part of the group. So uh truly and and
and being Chan. I will be gladly part of that

(34:34):
effort to get you to six Pennsylvania, haven't you? You've
got the goods? Buddy, y'all wait to guy as I
tell people, why have a white house when you have
a gold house? Um? But no, in all seriousness, I
think this is one of those rare instances you should
meet your heroes. Um, I really mean and Mikey. I
think in Haley and rossknew in the short period time.
I don't be as uncompliments, even tho I'm very fusive.

(34:55):
So this is such a treat. And Haley and Ross,
I can't believe all this time you're studying on this.
It's a testament to your commitment to reward, but also
a deep compliment. So I owe you walk you if
you like red meat, and then I owe you much
if you don't. Uh So, you know what, honestly, I
just want to actually share something that I'm feeling right now,
Like oftentimes you don't know how your day is gonna
go and you're not sure, like have I started the

(35:16):
morning off right? You know what could make this day better?
And we have these little rituals that do tend to
start the day off right and you don't necessarily always
get to them. But this conversation has given me um
a lot of really positive energy. So thank you both.
Really it's such a pleasure. Well that doesn't. For this

(35:40):
episode of the Future Legends of Advertising podcast, I'm Ross
Martin and I'm Hailey Rohmer, and thank you for listening.
For more information on the American Advertising Federation, go to
a a F dot org.