Linda Ong and Sarah Unger are on a mission to help brands become “insiders” to subcultures and audiences—and according to them, it all starts with empathy and meeting people halfway. We chat with the co-founders of cultural insights and strategy venture CULTIQUE on everything from the elusive goal of understanding Gen Z to purpose “BS detectors” to where the metaverse can really shine when it comes to fandom.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good Company is a production of I Heart Radio. There's
all kinds of indices that marketers and organizations use to
gauge their relevance with customers, and culture is the ultimate
litmus test. And we often talk about culture as being
in the empathy business because part of the challenge I
think for for many brands is that culture is this
(00:21):
broad ecosystem. Hi, I'm Michael Casson. Welcome to Good Company,
where I'll explore how marketing, media, entertainment, and tech are intersecting,
transforming our lives and the way we do business at
a breakneck speed. I'll be joined by some of the
greatest business minds and strongest leaders who will share how
(00:44):
they build companies from the ground up or transform them
from the inside out. My bed is you'll pick up
a lesson or two along the way. It's all good.
I'm excited to welcome to leaders who are at the
forefront of culture to Good Company. Linda On and her
co founder and partner Sarah Unger, the co founders of
(01:04):
Cultique of Cultural Insights and Strategy Venture. I'm so keen
on this conversation because just the idea of discussing culture,
but really understanding the tool that culture really is not
just the thing that it is, but the thing that
it does is getting underneath what cultique is all about.
(01:26):
And what I'd really love to start with is just
kind of give our audience, if you wouldn't mind, some
backgrounds on yourselves and you know as well, kind of
how you charted the path to get here, What was
the moment and what was the you know, person or
people that kind of inspired you to focus on culture. Yeah,
(01:49):
I love that, you know, with cultique, and really the
work that I've been doing all my life is really
about weaponizing my personal issues for professional gain. Because when
you grow up to Pinees in Texas as a young kid,
as I did in the seventies before there were Asians,
and the kids don't understand who you are and and
make assumptions based on my skin color or my features.
(02:11):
You know, it really has been a lifelong journey of
understanding and excavating and helping other people deal with issues
surrounding their identity, whether it's a brand right or a talent.
I worked with a lot of talent, but also my
personal background happens to be very multi layered and multifaceted
in terms of culture and as a child, I had
(02:33):
to learn how to navigate and understand, you know, that
there were different cultures in the world and subcultures, and
that you could be an outsider, you could be an insider.
So I've really been studying that all my life and
I'm just applying that to all of our clients. It's
such a such a salient point because you had the
understanding living in your own skin. And I think, yeah,
(02:57):
and I think in terms of like brand strategy in particular,
but also how that fits into whatever culture you're trying
to appeal to. You know, what I learned at an
early age is if you don't articulate your own identity
and personality, other people will assign that to you. And
I really did not like that. My grandmother gave me
advice when I was young because of her orientation of
coming from Europe and you know, having to flee Europe
(03:20):
as a Jewish woman, a young teenager, and she said,
when you're Jewish, you have to stay ahead to keep up. Yeah,
And it's interesting just you know, juxtaposing those two things,
because you have something to prove in a different way perhaps,
and if you're different than others, that doesn't mean it's
good or bad, it's just different, that's right. It's interesting
(03:43):
that you mentioned that because, as you well know, and
listeners of your pot also know that the number one
thing in you know, a marketplace is to be different.
And yet as children and in society, we were doing
that was a bad thing, right, And so part of
my life's work has really been you know, this is
(04:03):
a coping mechanism for me right personally, but it's a
recipe for success for a business. Absolutely, And Sarah, you know,
give our listeners a little bit of your journey and
and you know your motivation for bringing Cultivate to the world.
So I am a neophile. I love learning new things,
(04:24):
and this like deep well of curiosity. From from where
it comes I do not know, but it's always been there.
I remember when I was a kid, I actually got
kicked out of class for asking too many questions. I
accept it was because I didn't raise my hand when
I asked okay, so I just blurted it out. So
(04:44):
we both we both had the same experience, but for
different reasons. Yeah, I and I think I also remember
a different teacher telling my parents that I was a
real bulldog when it came to finding the answer. I
wouldn't would relentlessly keep going until I got to the
got to the deep enough answer that I wanted. And
so I think in the same vein as learning new things,
(05:08):
finding hitting connections is really interesting to myself, Linda, our
team of analysts as well. And I like taking all
of this knowledge that I learned and then inspiring others
with it with our clients, with people in my personal
life as well. Um And I think I always wanted
to be in a scenario where I could take interest
(05:29):
in so many disparate different parts of life and weave
them in together into into one, one existence, one profession,
and being a cultural analyst and strategists lets you do
that in a very unique way. I think also with cltique,
we we really embrace the mantra of the water, which
(05:50):
reflects the flowing and evolving nature of culture. So I
think being in a scenario that lets you evolve as
a person, as a professional, as a leader is really
really healthy. And Linda and I wanted to bring that
to life and how we how we ran our business
and how we approached it culturally. So, Sarah, when you
say leader cultique has a view of what you characterize
(06:13):
as a culture first brand. I'd love to understand and
get underneath that as to how you look at that.
And I know culture and purpose are different, but when
you talk about a culture first brand, does it cross over.
I'll start with the culture and then we'll lead into
how the purpose, how how the purpose derives from that.
I think when we look at what a culture first
(06:35):
brand looks like, we think of culture as an ecosystem, right,
it has, it ebbs, it flows, it evolves, as I
mentioned previously, And when we think of a culture first brand,
we think of a brand that's a healthy, contributing part
of the broader cultural ecosystem. You can really think of
it as brand health in a way. And when we
talk about health, it means being proactive, not reactive, culturally,
(06:59):
coming from a position of offense not defense, which is
how we like to work with our clients. Really having
an understanding of what your essences and getting ahead of
how that is communicated and translated to the world. Linda,
maybe you can talk a little about the cultural litmus
test that we do well. I think basically, you know,
as Sarah mentioned, there's brand health trackers, there's brand trust metrics,
(07:21):
there's all kinds of indices, you know that that marketers
and organizations use to gauge their relevance with customers. And
culture is the ultimate litmus test. And we often talk
about culture as being in the empathy business because you know,
part of the challenge I think for for many brands
is that culture is this broad ecosystem. Part of what
(07:43):
we do is help geolocate what is what is their
place currently, what is their aspirational place they could be
in culture, but also importantly, who were the audiences that
really they're trying to cultivate, right And and remember that
the word cult, you know, which has a negative connotation,
is the first part of the word culture. So cults
(08:04):
are you know, without the you know, the negative associations
are really about fandoms in some way, or groups of
people are subcultures. So if you as a brand understand
who is your audience, what are they feeling, what does
the world look like on their terms, that is really
about empathy and that's really what we try to help
(08:24):
our clients understand or or really, you know, to the
point of the earlier conversation, how can we help every
business be an insider when they are actually outsiders to
those subcultures or audiences. So, for example, a lot of
companies dealing with gen Z and not understanding how do
you communicate with gen Z And everyone says you have
(08:45):
to meet gen Z where they live. Well, that's really
about empathy. You have to understand what the world looks
like from gen Z's point of view. You have to
understand what the world looks like when America has only
been in decline since they were born. That's a very
different experience than generations before. And you can't apply the
same principles of when I was a teenager to a
(09:06):
gen X youth. So I think part of being culture
first is not necessarily looking at the broader culture only,
but really zeroing in. And that's really what we do,
is curate the subcultures and conversations, which essentially, you know,
can be fandoms can be. Subcultures can be you know,
in the case of some of the projects we've worked on,
it could be soccer fans. It can be you know,
(09:29):
women who like a certain TV show. It could be
you know, sci fi fans. It can be any kind
of group that has a shared group of a shared
set of values and affinities, and you know, this is
sort of the work that gets us the most excited
because it is really much more helpful than demographics when
you're looking at audiences. I think consumers today are really
(09:49):
are really clear that you need to have a true
understanding of how to meet them halfway. And we don't
even think of them as consumers just people. We try
to kind of take the commercial out of it, but
I think our our analyst team really represents the broader
cultural perspective when companies innately, even if they're so culturally smart,
(10:11):
kind of operate with blinders on because you have internal demands.
And so I think that cultural litmus test that Linda
referred to in some ways is a bullshit detector. It's
a detector that can sort of look at where opportunities
that you may not realize you're totally culturally misstepping before
it happens, before you spend all this money to launch
a campaign that doesn't actually land with consumers. I think
(10:34):
where those eyes and ears where it's necessary, and when
we think in general about purpose and the purpose bullshit detector.
I think what we're seeing is consumers have an expectation
that if a company declares a purpose. It needs to
really be the pillar of their entire businesses existence, both
internally and externally. And I want to add something. You
(10:56):
said something that that sparked this for me. I've always
drawn a distinct when people talk about marketing in the
context of B two B or B two C. We
all know B two S, you know, direct to consumer,
be to be, you know, direct to business. I always
question people to not forget businesses are people too. Corporations
have a personality. Corporations. So when you say B two
(11:19):
B B two C, you're saying, well, one is kind
of an inanimate object and one as a person. I
always push back on that and say, corporations are people too. Yeah,
they have a personality. So you can't look at it.
You know, there's no when you're marketing B two B,
you're still marketing to someone. You're a procurement person. You're
(11:41):
marketing to a uh, you know, a buyer. You're marketing
to somebody that is in the face of a corporation. Right,
So it's interesting when you when you say that because
corporations have personalities as well, totally and just building that
analogy further. If a corporation operates like a human. If
they throw on a new pair of clothes for a day,
(12:02):
consumers know they haven't changed entirely and SOT, by the way,
very nice, very nice letter first time. The label may
still the tag may still be in it. I don't know.
I think. I think when we look at purpose, we're
trying to help businesses. Cutique is trying to help businesses
find their very neat white space where they naturally can
(12:25):
enter the conversation, versus trying to squeeze a square peg
into a round hole, which is jarring to consumers and
an authentic at best. Absolutely, guys, I want to get
current again, and I want to look back over the
last kind of two years. In the last two years,
I think it's fair to say we've lived twenty or more.
(12:47):
Maybe we've lived a generation. I'm certain we have actually
these last two years or generation, because the experiences that
we've all had over these last two years are bonds
that will never be broken because it's a ship experience, right, Um,
how how do you help brands decipher you know, if
(13:07):
and when they should add the voice to the conversation.
We see what happened with the Walt Disney Company in Florida,
and and I'm certain we could make you know, ten
podcasts about that from not only the perspective of the
Walt Disney Company in the state of Florida, but just
the idea of corporations having those those voices number one
and number two. You know, what we saw at the
(13:29):
beginning of the pandemic was really manifested itself in the
marketing messages that were delivered. And I talked about this
a lot, but it came up the other day. We
all saw what happened. And the best example was quick
service restaurants during the early days of the pandemic. Instead
of seeing, you know, McDonald's showing you a picture of
(13:50):
a juicy hamburger and French fries, they showed you pictures
of the frontline workers. You know. Instead of Walmart saying,
you know, lowest prices whatever, they showed the workers. And
we went through the pandemic and we landed in the
middle of George Floyd. We then rolled into Delta, and
then we rolled into the next issue. And now we're
(14:12):
in a situation where we have a war going on
which I can't imagine. In two we're talking about a
ground war in Europe, and yet we do number one,
number two, the horror of And I wrote an op
ed the other day which I'm not ashamed to promote
here on what I will not refer to as school shootings.
(14:35):
I referred to as school murders, and and and I
think words matter, and we're all in the business of
shaping narratives. And I wrote an op ed, as I
said the other day, that said, don't call this a shoot,
and call it what it is. It's a murder, and
words matter. A shooting is when you make a movie,
or you take a film, or you an amusement park
and you go to a shooting gallery. This wasn't a shooting.
(14:57):
This is a murder, a massacre. So when we've got
all those events around us, marketers need to adjust or
do they? I mean, do you still go out with
low price or now are we going to have see
you know, retailers talking about the community. It's it's a
question I don't know the answer to. Yeah, well, it's
(15:19):
a we could do a whole podcast on that, right.
I think, first of all, thank you for your words
and your thoughts and putting your voice out there. It's
important for those kinds of narratives to air see sunlight,
and you're right. I mean the last twenty four months
have we've witnessed more change over the last twenty four
(15:39):
months than we've experienced in the last twenty four years
or even the last one hundred years. The rate of
change has just completely accelerated. We like to look at
this past period is really a perfect storm. And it's
interesting a lot of people use that analogy, but we
I wanted to really understand from a meteorological standpoint, what
is what really a perfect storm is. And it is
(16:02):
a confluence of different factors that we know. So it
could be racial strife, income inequality, pandemic, world war, you know,
climate change, all these things that are going on at
the same time, and this upheaval in society. But really
the characteristic characteristic of a perfect storm that we're feeling
right now is that when all those different unrelated factors converge,
(16:24):
they have the effect of intensifying, amplifying, and exacerbating each other.
So it's almost like throwing those all those factors into
a giant queasy art, but you know, next mixing up
the whole world at the same time, so they're not
isolated and anymore. And so if you look at the
history of advertising, which we do from a cultural perspective.
(16:47):
Advertisers and marketers have traditionally taught society how to behave
taught people they needed whier clothes, or needed to smell fresher,
or needed to have whiter teeth. All these things were
you know, for good or for bad ideas that were
inserted into society, even you know, socially progressive ideas Ikea
(17:08):
and Volkswagen being the first to feature same sex couples
and their advertising or cheerios showing multiracial families. These are
advances that advertising has typically ahead of other media put forward.
So its hypocritical for advertisers to say when things are
bad that we can't weigh in. Right, So what we
advise our clients is, I don't think it's a it's
(17:31):
a it's a binary. I don't think it's a an
across the board. You know, do you weigh and do
you not? But really understanding what we say is what's
the cultural DNA of your organization and your brand. And typically,
again we look back at the history of a company
and we say when was this company founded, for what
purpose at that time? And why did it resonate in
(17:51):
culture when it took off. May not have taken off
in the first year, might have taken off in the
tenth year. But when it took off, what was happening
in the world. It could have been a world war,
It could have been a change in society from agriculture
to industrial many many different factors. But when you understand
what's in the cultural DNA, and we can do this.
We do this for brands, We do this for content,
(18:11):
you know, pieces of content, legacy content and its twentieth season.
What's in the DNA that people really like? You know,
I just watched Tough Gun Maverick. But the first thing
we did was go back to the original and say, well,
what's in the DNA of the original and what do
we need to promise audiences in the new um And
I think it totally delivers on that. It totally delivered.
(18:32):
I saw the movie. It totally do you know right
away if it was inauthentic to the original. So part
of the examination about Windy weigh in what is your purpose?
All that needs to go back to Sarah's point. If
you show up with different clothes all of a sudden,
it feels in authentic. So what is even if people
weren't around when that company was founded, that DNA is there.
(18:52):
I worked a long time ago with Reuters, right, Reuters
became a successful company in the eight hundred because of
carrier pigeons. That's how Reuters started. If you understand that
that's in their d n A, that helps you carve
a path to how does that translate to today? What
was the need state in society? So I think that
(19:14):
the Unilever we have been following the Unilever study. I
loved you know, it was very provocative, questioned as mayonnaise
need a purpose? But then I would go back to,
you know, what was the need state? What was the
cultural desire that made Hellman's popular in the first Well, Lynda,
it's interesting if you go back using Unilever and continuing
it lord Leaver, it was originally around hygiene and cleanliness,
(19:39):
and people didn't brush their teeth and and they didn't
wash their clothing, and it was hygiene that was really
behind what lord Leaver started when he started Unilever. So
it's an interesting if you look back at the DNA
of the company, and they were one of the first
to build that company Town you know, a place for
the workers to live, and you know is the blueprint right,
(20:01):
So what what should their purpose and their contribution to
society be today? Should be the version of those initial impulses,
which were again humanistic, you know, and empathetic at their
So no, it's it's a really brilliant point as we
look back, let's look forward. Let that verge of is
(20:24):
we're on the verge of arguably the potential of maybe
another tectonic shift in and living in Los Angeles. I
don't like to say tectonically. I want I don't want
to say techtonic. You know, paradigm shift, paradigm shift, better,
better better. I'm not inviting any friends of underground rumblings.
The question I have is as you're looking forward into
(20:47):
the metaverse and into you know, kind of Web three
or as I try to say, I don't know that
we're all the way there yet, maybe Web two point five,
But you know, as you look forward, are you how
are you advising the brands that Cultique is currently working
with as to how they need to be thinking of
these same issues in this new paradigm. Well, it is
(21:09):
a new paradigm, and we're we're very fixated on looking
forward and helping our clients look forward, because we do
think that is a binary You're either at this point
with the future or clinging to the past. And we
think people who are embracing what I call the inevitable
are going to win in this new era. I think
what we're seeing in terms of the metaverse and Sarah,
I will cue you as well. Right now with the
(21:32):
current situation, especially when it comes to media and entertainment
at tech UM, such an intensification and applification again because
of this perfect storm, but in fragmentation of audiences. That
is the number one issue that our clients are dealing with.
This They understand that again demographics are unhelpful in terms
(21:52):
of reaching broad spots of audience. And we've seen this
explosion and fandom and this appetite for really small, smaller communities,
smaller conversations, but very immersive world building applications for each
of those individual UM subcultures or or fan bases. And
so whether that's virtual in the metaverse or I r
(22:15):
L and you're seeing UM. A lot of has been
written recently about the rise of live action role play.
Disney now has a whole immersive world that they built
where you can go stay and act out your fantasies
with with other characters and cast members are specific or
star wars. Yeah, but we're seeing it in in many
other I mean you see the bridgetin at activations that
(22:37):
people are crazy for going, um, you know, to to
really immerse themselves in these experiences. So the metaverse is
just a virtual way to do that. What we think
is really important is to understand how to segment your
audience based on cultural affinity. So we've been performing and
conducting a lot of cultural segmentation similar to the way
(22:58):
people used to do them to demograph quickly, but really
understanding um that you know, people have dog lovers have
more in common perhaps than you know women eighteen to
twenty four um. And so it's just again getting into
the wiring, becoming an insider and understanding what are all
the many different ways that people want to experience this
shared affinity and shared values. Uh. In the metaverse is
(23:21):
going to be a very exciting way to do that.
It's definitely something we're studying. We're getting asked about a lot.
I mean, if you're in culture, you need to be
sort of tracking this this ship for sure. I think
what's fascinating is a few things to keep in mind.
It's not like a light switch will be flipped on
and then all of a sudden, we're living in the metaverse.
I recorded a podcast a little while back on autonomous vehicles.
(23:44):
It's the same kind of thing. Our cars are already smarter,
We're already dipping our toe into the metaverse and a
lot of the ways that we're operating in our digital lives.
So I think it's more of a gradual thing than
in all of a sudden thing, even though we're seeing
a lot of um exciting uh and slightly a lot
mispressbact know the old you know, the old definition of bankruptcy.
Bankruptcy is something that happens very slowly and then very
(24:06):
quickly exactly exactly, so good and so terrible. So hopefully
that happens to nobody. But I think also when we
look at the metaverse, it's really important to look at
where digital engagement is very unique and offers opportunities that
really you can't replicate in real life. Whether it's scale,
(24:28):
more inclusive, I think that's where metaverse can really shine
versus trying to replace the magic of the tangible world,
and each has its benefits in its place. And I
think what's fascinating and some of the studies that I'm
most interested in reading about are as technologies become more widespread,
(24:49):
they start to become prey to the same biases and
systemic issues that happen in broader society. So yes, we're
already seeing discuss and around sexual assault in the metaverse
and issues along those lines. Similar frankly to how once
crypto became you know, professionalized and more adopted in a
(25:12):
mainstream way by brands, then you start to see it,
you know, become less inclusive and represent less of the
ideals and more like broader financial market problems. So I
think you can think of it in those terms. So
let me let me ask another question. As we look
back to twenty four months that felt like twenty four years,
and as we look forward, but looking back for one
(25:33):
moment over the let's say, the last year, is there
any content development, you know, aside from obviously the streaming
and and and and the like, are there any content
developments that stand out to you? You know, people are
standing back and saying, WHOA for me personally, a big
woe was in squid Game blew up. You know, we've
been watching global content obviously for a long time, and
(25:58):
you know, it's interesting because we've been attributing the sort
of broadening appetite for global content in you know, we
we will trace that back ten or fifteen years to
actually when people started really watching reality television in the
US and they got used to reading subtitles, which was
(26:18):
really interesting because if you watch a reality show even today,
there's always a segment where somebody is speaking with subtitles
because you can't hear them. They're drunk, they're speaking and jargon.
But that's sort of kind of mainstream normalized where because
there was always this bias that you know, everything from
television in the past fifty years as Americans won't read subtitles,
(26:40):
Americans won't do this, Americans won't do that. Well, I
think that reality television we saw really paved the way.
And then the other thing that happened with streaming is
just the algorithms started serving up, you know, shows that
you didn't really know where they came from, and the
production of shows even like Narco is where you have
(27:00):
that were American productions, but you had characters speaking in
Spanish the entire time with subtitles. These kinds of normalizations
of what used to be kind of for forbidden right
or for boting approaches to content are really being eliminated
by by just the proliferation of streaming. And with squid Game,
(27:20):
it was so interesting because the first time that really
an Asian piece of content on non Western piece content
really resonated in many parts of the world. Um And
I think that has huge implications for marketers. Marketers need
to understand that audiences are opening up to global ideas,
global faces, global languages, and that is something that has
(27:42):
not traditionally. You know, you have some marketers like Adidas
who have been very global from for a really long time,
and they've really been a pioneer even of just bringing
in really omniicultural, very diverse, different kinds of people, not
just racially but different economic um and you know, scales
as well as different levels of recognition, men with women,
(28:05):
different sports, mixing them all together, and I think that
kind of Nike also it's interesting in sports because the
sports are more global, but Nike also paved the way
with bringing in um different kinds of sounds and talent
from all over the world, and I think that global
market is really we're seeing it really accelerated right now
because of the pandemic, because people were more open to
(28:28):
different kinds of content. And again, you know, it goes
back to give me something different, give me something that's
not formulate, give me something I haven't seen before. And
so I think for marketers that's a great opportunity to say, well,
what does that look like to be even if your
US focused, to have a more global viewpoint interesting, Because
you're right, I've never been uncomfortable with subtitles. But on
(28:51):
all the streaming I did over the last twenty four months,
so many of these shows were in languages other than English.
For every dy on this podcast watched Call My Agent
in French, you know, and by the way that shows Youdemoiselle. Yeah,
and by the way that shows you know it now
has a British version, which is in English. Doesn't have
a U S version yet, but it also I believe
(29:12):
has South Korean, Turkey, Italian. So you know, a good
idea can translate in any language. But right, but any
language is no longer really a barrier for viewers, and
and you're interested as US viewers. Again, we're in an
Arab decline. We're interested in learning from other cultures because
other cultures. For example, k K culture is incredibly a
(29:35):
senate K culture is what American culture did in the
twentieth century. K culture is doing now because it's music,
it's books, it's film, it's everything, right, fashions. So these
cues from a macro level are really important because they
can make a brand field dated or forward looking. Yeah, no, no,
(29:55):
it's it's so true. And you know, I'm sad that
we have a limited amount of time today, but we're
definitely doing a hood do in in in the spirit
of of language in French. Uh, mademoiselle, Well okay, you
(30:16):
lost me there. Now I'm done wine after a lot
of wine exactly. Um. Let me let me ask you
the question I always love to ask, but particularly to
the two of you, if you had a crystal ball,
because part of what you do is crystal ball, Like
(30:37):
you're taking data and and listening and and and looking forward,
you know, because culture isn't only what it is now
where it's going. You know. The thing I used to
say about a particular demographic that marketers are always searching
for the holy grail of that certain demo. The problem
(30:58):
is you can't find them. They have to find you
because if you find them, it's too late, so they're
already on to the next when you find them. So
you have to I mean not just I know this
isn't your question, but I do because you gave me
the ends to, like a lawyer, have to go there.
Let's just talk about data for a second. The issue
with data is the minute you have that information, it's old, right,
(31:22):
and it's the same for a focus group. The minute
you ask a consumer do you like this? Do you
not like this? You can't act on that because they've
already made up their mind. What culture allows us to
do because we'll we'll ingest all the data, but we
don't talk to consumers. We analyze all of the inputs
that speak to them and drive their decisions. So we're
typically able to, you know, accurately, anticipate shifts in culture
(31:46):
one to two years before they come to the mainstream
because we're looking at stuff that's emergent. We're not we're
actually not crystal ball gazing, but you know, understand the phrase,
but we're actually looking at the new breadcrumbs that are emerging. Right, No,
you said it earlier, Linda or Sarah, one of you
said it. The cues that we get are the things
that lead us to you know, the next the next
(32:08):
new thing. Right, we see the cues if we're listening,
if we're looking. It's true when we look at things.
You know, if an analyst was starting out of this
in this industry, they might have nerves like, hell, I know,
I'm right. Well, because it's what's happening in culture. We're
just seeing it and connecting the dots in a way
that might escape some people. So nothing, nothing we're doing
(32:29):
is coming out of thin air. But but back to
your question, I'm eager to hear an answer. You know again,
do you see a tidal wave coming? Do you see another?
I mean, we talked about metaverse, we talked about web
two point five or three and n F T s. Again,
if you're prognosticating, and again, I know you're not in
(32:49):
the business of prognosticating, but you are to some degree. Yeah,
you like to say, we're in the business of anticipating
better better choice of words. Um, as you're anticipating, is
there something particular that you could share that you're anticipating sure,
I think right now. As Linda mentioned, we study everything,
(33:09):
so there's there's shifts in basically all sectors that we're studying.
One that we find particularly worthy and notable, I would
say is the mental health crisis is really prominent right now,
especially among younger generations, which of course we're always The
reason why we love to study younger generations is because
they're going to grow up to be the future, right
(33:30):
It's such an important focus for anyone who's looking at
emergent developments and culture. Mental health crisis is really really
a key, a key problem that I think everyone, every
brand should be paying attention to because our perspective of
the world really um dictates how humans engage with it
and whether you can engage with it on stable terms.
(33:53):
The world's growing more chaotic, so that's increasingly difficult. Linda
and I actually in the end of February put ourselves
in a neural feedback training program because we're very interested
in neurofeedback as a mechanism. Um In addition to traditional
psychology psychiatry, we're also studying the advent of psychedelics as well,
(34:14):
in their increasing research being done on them. Hopefully macent
approval by the f D A. UM, we're very interested
in how these tools are really going to help shift
the way generations, especially younger generations, feel empowered to engage
with the world. We actually have been. We just did
an i G t V live on our our Instagram site.
(34:36):
Will be posting in a bit with the neuroscientist at
the program and really my you know, the the what
I'm really eagerly anticipating is the application of neuroscience in
the workplace. So we've all been in corporations where teams
have done Myers Briggs tests and disk assessments and all
kinds of tools that are really self assessments and very subjective. UM.
(34:59):
But if you can imagine the application of neuroscience and
neuro feedback to really understand is Sarah and I went
together and we understand now how our brains work very
differently and why we're good partners. So I think that
those kinds of UM, you know, and neuroscience is really
at its infancy now. So that's a really exciting gruntier
for the workplace. Well, I would just add one of
(35:20):
the things that I am the most passionate about, which
you guys wouldn't have been aware of. But I'm on
the board of something called Project Healthy Minds, which is
an organization that is focused on exactly this, on the
mental health crisis that we are really experiencing in this
in this country, in this world. And you know, the
stigma that comes with mental health and the unwillingness for
(35:43):
people to talk and share, and you know, the rise
of suicide, not only team suicide but across the board.
But the mental health crisis is real and and and palpable,
and it was exacerbated by these last twenty four months
because the impact that we've seen and what the studies
are showing, and you know this better than I, the
(36:05):
impact of what we went through over the last twenty
four months as a as a as a race, as
a human and the last legacy about too right because
long is long COVID, by the way, is one physical
manifestation long mental right. But to that point, you know,
much of the research on long COVID will take place
(36:27):
in the brain. And so that's why brain science we
really you know, Sara and I attended this course because
we already were sensing the neuroscience was the new front here,
you know, in the way that and this is important
I think for marketers because you know we've gone through
as now we understand physical health is important, right, diet, fitness, exercise,
(36:50):
all that we now have gone through this period where
emotional and you know a lot of these things that
have come out that have been exposed by the pandemic,
a lot of emotion, emotional health, mental health has been exposed.
But neurological health, brain health. You know, to Sarah's point,
people are reaching to hallucinogenics and other therapies. Well, what
(37:10):
we learned in our in our program was that your
brain has the capacity to make itself high. And so
you we don't really if we understand in brain science
is really in its infancy. So there is a whole
market that is emerging that is not new, it's already
emerging in terms of new tropics. And you know tech
(37:31):
for the brain. And but imagine and this was mentioned
by our Nerve scientists. Imagine your fitness tracker that you
have that measures your steps and your and your heart
rate can monitor your brain ways. You're excited because what
we learned is that if you respect your brain, you
(37:51):
learn how your brain works, and you respect that um
just like you learn how your body works in the gym.
You know, it brings me back to one of my
favorite folksinger from a different era, Gordon Lightfoot, if you
could read my mind, I love that song. I love
that song and believe I conjured that one up. But
Sarah and Linda, this has been an extraordinary pleasure for
(38:13):
me because we're talking about things that you know, make
our world spin and and you know, having your perspective
and insights is something that is extraordinarily valuable not only
to your partners and clients and companies and people that
you advise, but to our listeners on good Companies. So
you know, with that, I want to thank you for
(38:35):
spending this time, and I want to thank you for
sharing your true wisdom and experience with our listeners. So
Linda and Sarah, thank you very much. Extreme I'm Michael Casson,
thanks for listening to Good Company. Good Company is a
(38:56):
production of I Heart Radio. Special Thanks to Lena pe Nderstand,
chief brand Officer and Managing director of for her vision
of Good Company, and to Jen Seely, vice President Marketing
Communications of Media Link for programming, amazing talent and content
Good Company is a production of I Heart Radio. There's
all kinds of indices that marketers and organizations use to
gauge their relevance with customers, and culture is the ultimate
litmus test. And we often talk about culture as being
in the empathy business because part of the challenge I
think for for many brands is that culture is this
(00:21):
broad ecosystem. Hi, I'm Michael Casson. Welcome to Good Company,
where I'll explore how marketing, media, entertainment, and tech are intersecting,
transforming our lives and the way we do business at
a breakneck speed. I'll be joined by some of the
greatest business minds and strongest leaders who will share how
(00:44):
they build companies from the ground up or transform them
from the inside out. My bed is you'll pick up
a lesson or two along the way. It's all good.
I'm excited to welcome to leaders who are at the
forefront of culture to Good Company. Linda On and her
co founder and partner Sarah Unger, the co founders of
(01:04):
Cultique of Cultural Insights and Strategy Venture. I'm so keen
on this conversation because just the idea of discussing culture,
but really understanding the tool that culture really is not
just the thing that it is, but the thing that
it does is getting underneath what cultique is all about.
(01:26):
And what I'd really love to start with is just
kind of give our audience, if you wouldn't mind, some
backgrounds on yourselves and you know as well, kind of
how you charted the path to get here, What was
the moment and what was the you know, person or
people that kind of inspired you to focus on culture. Yeah,
(01:49):
I love that, you know, with cultique, and really the
work that I've been doing all my life is really
about weaponizing my personal issues for professional gain. Because when
you grow up to Pinees in Texas as a young kid,
as I did in the seventies before there were Asians,
and the kids don't understand who you are and and
make assumptions based on my skin color or my features.
(02:11):
You know, it really has been a lifelong journey of
understanding and excavating and helping other people deal with issues
surrounding their identity, whether it's a brand right or a talent.
I worked with a lot of talent, but also my
personal background happens to be very multi layered and multifaceted
in terms of culture and as a child, I had
(02:33):
to learn how to navigate and understand, you know, that
there were different cultures in the world and subcultures, and
that you could be an outsider, you could be an insider.
So I've really been studying that all my life and
I'm just applying that to all of our clients. It's
such a such a salient point because you had the
understanding living in your own skin. And I think, yeah,
(02:57):
and I think in terms of like brand strategy in particular,
but also how that fits into whatever culture you're trying
to appeal to. You know, what I learned at an
early age is if you don't articulate your own identity
and personality, other people will assign that to you. And
I really did not like that. My grandmother gave me
advice when I was young because of her orientation of
coming from Europe and you know, having to flee Europe
(03:20):
as a Jewish woman, a young teenager, and she said,
when you're Jewish, you have to stay ahead to keep up. Yeah,
And it's interesting just you know, juxtaposing those two things,
because you have something to prove in a different way perhaps,
and if you're different than others, that doesn't mean it's
good or bad, it's just different, that's right. It's interesting
(03:43):
that you mentioned that because, as you well know, and
listeners of your pot also know that the number one
thing in you know, a marketplace is to be different.
And yet as children and in society, we were doing
that was a bad thing, right, And so part of
my life's work has really been you know, this is
(04:03):
a coping mechanism for me right personally, but it's a
recipe for success for a business. Absolutely, And Sarah, you know,
give our listeners a little bit of your journey and
and you know your motivation for bringing Cultivate to the world.
So I am a neophile. I love learning new things,
(04:24):
and this like deep well of curiosity. From from where
it comes I do not know, but it's always been there.
I remember when I was a kid, I actually got
kicked out of class for asking too many questions. I
accept it was because I didn't raise my hand when
I asked okay, so I just blurted it out. So
(04:44):
we both we both had the same experience, but for
different reasons. Yeah, I and I think I also remember
a different teacher telling my parents that I was a
real bulldog when it came to finding the answer. I
wouldn't would relentlessly keep going until I got to the
got to the deep enough answer that I wanted. And
so I think in the same vein as learning new things,
(05:08):
finding hitting connections is really interesting to myself, Linda, our
team of analysts as well. And I like taking all
of this knowledge that I learned and then inspiring others
with it with our clients, with people in my personal
life as well. Um And I think I always wanted
to be in a scenario where I could take interest
(05:29):
in so many disparate different parts of life and weave
them in together into into one, one existence, one profession,
and being a cultural analyst and strategists lets you do
that in a very unique way. I think also with cltique,
we we really embrace the mantra of the water, which
(05:50):
reflects the flowing and evolving nature of culture. So I
think being in a scenario that lets you evolve as
a person, as a professional, as a leader is really
really healthy. And Linda and I wanted to bring that
to life and how we how we ran our business
and how we approached it culturally. So, Sarah, when you
say leader cultique has a view of what you characterize
(06:13):
as a culture first brand. I'd love to understand and
get underneath that as to how you look at that.
And I know culture and purpose are different, but when
you talk about a culture first brand, does it cross over.
I'll start with the culture and then we'll lead into
how the purpose, how how the purpose derives from that.
I think when we look at what a culture first
(06:35):
brand looks like, we think of culture as an ecosystem, right,
it has, it ebbs, it flows, it evolves, as I
mentioned previously, And when we think of a culture first brand,
we think of a brand that's a healthy, contributing part
of the broader cultural ecosystem. You can really think of
it as brand health in a way. And when we
talk about health, it means being proactive, not reactive, culturally,
(06:59):
coming from a position of offense not defense, which is
how we like to work with our clients. Really having
an understanding of what your essences and getting ahead of
how that is communicated and translated to the world. Linda,
maybe you can talk a little about the cultural litmus
test that we do well. I think basically, you know,
as Sarah mentioned, there's brand health trackers, there's brand trust metrics,
(07:21):
there's all kinds of indices, you know that that marketers
and organizations use to gauge their relevance with customers. And
culture is the ultimate litmus test. And we often talk
about culture as being in the empathy business because you know,
part of the challenge I think for for many brands
is that culture is this broad ecosystem. Part of what
(07:43):
we do is help geolocate what is what is their
place currently, what is their aspirational place they could be
in culture, but also importantly, who were the audiences that
really they're trying to cultivate, right And and remember that
the word cult, you know, which has a negative connotation,
is the first part of the word culture. So cults
(08:04):
are you know, without the you know, the negative associations
are really about fandoms in some way, or groups of
people are subcultures. So if you as a brand understand
who is your audience, what are they feeling, what does
the world look like on their terms, that is really
about empathy and that's really what we try to help
(08:24):
our clients understand or or really, you know, to the
point of the earlier conversation, how can we help every
business be an insider when they are actually outsiders to
those subcultures or audiences. So, for example, a lot of
companies dealing with gen Z and not understanding how do
you communicate with gen Z And everyone says you have
(08:45):
to meet gen Z where they live. Well, that's really
about empathy. You have to understand what the world looks
like from gen Z's point of view. You have to
understand what the world looks like when America has only
been in decline since they were born. That's a very
different experience than generations before. And you can't apply the
same principles of when I was a teenager to a
(09:06):
gen X youth. So I think part of being culture
first is not necessarily looking at the broader culture only,
but really zeroing in. And that's really what we do,
is curate the subcultures and conversations, which essentially, you know,
can be fandoms can be. Subcultures can be you know,
in the case of some of the projects we've worked on,
it could be soccer fans. It can be you know,
(09:29):
women who like a certain TV show. It could be
you know, sci fi fans. It can be any kind
of group that has a shared group of a shared
set of values and affinities, and you know, this is
sort of the work that gets us the most excited
because it is really much more helpful than demographics when
you're looking at audiences. I think consumers today are really
(09:49):
are really clear that you need to have a true
understanding of how to meet them halfway. And we don't
even think of them as consumers just people. We try
to kind of take the commercial out of it, but
I think our our analyst team really represents the broader
cultural perspective when companies innately, even if they're so culturally smart,
(10:11):
kind of operate with blinders on because you have internal demands.
And so I think that cultural litmus test that Linda
referred to in some ways is a bullshit detector. It's
a detector that can sort of look at where opportunities
that you may not realize you're totally culturally misstepping before
it happens, before you spend all this money to launch
a campaign that doesn't actually land with consumers. I think
(10:34):
where those eyes and ears where it's necessary, and when
we think in general about purpose and the purpose bullshit detector.
I think what we're seeing is consumers have an expectation
that if a company declares a purpose. It needs to
really be the pillar of their entire businesses existence, both
internally and externally. And I want to add something. You
(10:56):
said something that that sparked this for me. I've always
drawn a distinct when people talk about marketing in the
context of B two B or B two C. We
all know B two S, you know, direct to consumer,
be to be, you know, direct to business. I always
question people to not forget businesses are people too. Corporations
have a personality. Corporations. So when you say B two
(11:19):
B B two C, you're saying, well, one is kind
of an inanimate object and one as a person. I
always push back on that and say, corporations are people too. Yeah,
they have a personality. So you can't look at it.
You know, there's no when you're marketing B two B,
you're still marketing to someone. You're a procurement person. You're
(11:41):
marketing to a uh, you know, a buyer. You're marketing
to somebody that is in the face of a corporation. Right,
So it's interesting when you when you say that because
corporations have personalities as well, totally and just building that
analogy further. If a corporation operates like a human. If
they throw on a new pair of clothes for a day,
(12:02):
consumers know they haven't changed entirely and SOT, by the way,
very nice, very nice letter first time. The label may
still the tag may still be in it. I don't know.
I think. I think when we look at purpose, we're
trying to help businesses. Cutique is trying to help businesses
find their very neat white space where they naturally can
(12:25):
enter the conversation, versus trying to squeeze a square peg
into a round hole, which is jarring to consumers and
an authentic at best. Absolutely, guys, I want to get
current again, and I want to look back over the
last kind of two years. In the last two years,
I think it's fair to say we've lived twenty or more.
(12:47):
Maybe we've lived a generation. I'm certain we have actually
these last two years or generation, because the experiences that
we've all had over these last two years are bonds
that will never be broken because it's a ship experience, right, Um,
how how do you help brands decipher you know, if
(13:07):
and when they should add the voice to the conversation.
We see what happened with the Walt Disney Company in Florida,
and and I'm certain we could make you know, ten
podcasts about that from not only the perspective of the
Walt Disney Company in the state of Florida, but just
the idea of corporations having those those voices number one
and number two. You know, what we saw at the
(13:29):
beginning of the pandemic was really manifested itself in the
marketing messages that were delivered. And I talked about this
a lot, but it came up the other day. We
all saw what happened. And the best example was quick
service restaurants during the early days of the pandemic. Instead
of seeing, you know, McDonald's showing you a picture of
(13:50):
a juicy hamburger and French fries, they showed you pictures
of the frontline workers. You know. Instead of Walmart saying,
you know, lowest prices whatever, they showed the workers. And
we went through the pandemic and we landed in the
middle of George Floyd. We then rolled into Delta, and
then we rolled into the next issue. And now we're
(14:12):
in a situation where we have a war going on
which I can't imagine. In two we're talking about a
ground war in Europe, and yet we do number one,
number two, the horror of And I wrote an op
ed the other day which I'm not ashamed to promote
here on what I will not refer to as school shootings.
(14:35):
I referred to as school murders, and and and I
think words matter, and we're all in the business of
shaping narratives. And I wrote an op ed, as I
said the other day, that said, don't call this a shoot,
and call it what it is. It's a murder, and
words matter. A shooting is when you make a movie,
or you take a film, or you an amusement park
and you go to a shooting gallery. This wasn't a shooting.
(14:57):
This is a murder, a massacre. So when we've got
all those events around us, marketers need to adjust or
do they? I mean, do you still go out with
low price or now are we going to have see
you know, retailers talking about the community. It's it's a
question I don't know the answer to. Yeah, well, it's
(15:19):
a we could do a whole podcast on that, right.
I think, first of all, thank you for your words
and your thoughts and putting your voice out there. It's
important for those kinds of narratives to air see sunlight,
and you're right. I mean the last twenty four months
have we've witnessed more change over the last twenty four
(15:39):
months than we've experienced in the last twenty four years
or even the last one hundred years. The rate of
change has just completely accelerated. We like to look at
this past period is really a perfect storm. And it's
interesting a lot of people use that analogy, but we
I wanted to really understand from a meteorological standpoint, what
is what really a perfect storm is. And it is
(16:02):
a confluence of different factors that we know. So it
could be racial strife, income inequality, pandemic, world war, you know,
climate change, all these things that are going on at
the same time, and this upheaval in society. But really
the characteristic characteristic of a perfect storm that we're feeling
right now is that when all those different unrelated factors converge,
(16:24):
they have the effect of intensifying, amplifying, and exacerbating each other.
So it's almost like throwing those all those factors into
a giant queasy art, but you know, next mixing up
the whole world at the same time, so they're not
isolated and anymore. And so if you look at the
history of advertising, which we do from a cultural perspective.
(16:47):
Advertisers and marketers have traditionally taught society how to behave
taught people they needed whier clothes, or needed to smell fresher,
or needed to have whiter teeth. All these things were
you know, for good or for bad ideas that were
inserted into society, even you know, socially progressive ideas Ikea
(17:08):
and Volkswagen being the first to feature same sex couples
and their advertising or cheerios showing multiracial families. These are
advances that advertising has typically ahead of other media put forward.
So its hypocritical for advertisers to say when things are
bad that we can't weigh in. Right, So what we
advise our clients is, I don't think it's a it's
(17:31):
a it's a binary. I don't think it's a an
across the board. You know, do you weigh and do
you not? But really understanding what we say is what's
the cultural DNA of your organization and your brand. And typically,
again we look back at the history of a company
and we say when was this company founded, for what
purpose at that time? And why did it resonate in
(17:51):
culture when it took off. May not have taken off
in the first year, might have taken off in the
tenth year. But when it took off, what was happening
in the world. It could have been a world war,
It could have been a change in society from agriculture
to industrial many many different factors. But when you understand
what's in the cultural DNA, and we can do this.
We do this for brands, We do this for content,
(18:11):
you know, pieces of content, legacy content and its twentieth season.
What's in the DNA that people really like? You know,
I just watched Tough Gun Maverick. But the first thing
we did was go back to the original and say, well,
what's in the DNA of the original and what do
we need to promise audiences in the new um And
I think it totally delivers on that. It totally delivered.
(18:32):
I saw the movie. It totally do you know right
away if it was inauthentic to the original. So part
of the examination about Windy weigh in what is your purpose?
All that needs to go back to Sarah's point. If
you show up with different clothes all of a sudden,
it feels in authentic. So what is even if people
weren't around when that company was founded, that DNA is there.
(18:52):
I worked a long time ago with Reuters, right, Reuters
became a successful company in the eight hundred because of
carrier pigeons. That's how Reuters started. If you understand that
that's in their d n A, that helps you carve
a path to how does that translate to today? What
was the need state in society? So I think that
(19:14):
the Unilever we have been following the Unilever study. I
loved you know, it was very provocative, questioned as mayonnaise
need a purpose? But then I would go back to,
you know, what was the need state? What was the
cultural desire that made Hellman's popular in the first Well, Lynda,
it's interesting if you go back using Unilever and continuing
it lord Leaver, it was originally around hygiene and cleanliness,
(19:39):
and people didn't brush their teeth and and they didn't
wash their clothing, and it was hygiene that was really
behind what lord Leaver started when he started Unilever. So
it's an interesting if you look back at the DNA
of the company, and they were one of the first
to build that company Town you know, a place for
the workers to live, and you know is the blueprint right,
(20:01):
So what what should their purpose and their contribution to
society be today? Should be the version of those initial impulses,
which were again humanistic, you know, and empathetic at their
So no, it's it's a really brilliant point as we
look back, let's look forward. Let that verge of is
(20:24):
we're on the verge of arguably the potential of maybe
another tectonic shift in and living in Los Angeles. I
don't like to say tectonically. I want I don't want
to say techtonic. You know, paradigm shift, paradigm shift, better,
better better. I'm not inviting any friends of underground rumblings.
The question I have is as you're looking forward into
(20:47):
the metaverse and into you know, kind of Web three
or as I try to say, I don't know that
we're all the way there yet, maybe Web two point five,
But you know, as you look forward, are you how
are you advising the brands that Cultique is currently working
with as to how they need to be thinking of
these same issues in this new paradigm. Well, it is
(21:09):
a new paradigm, and we're we're very fixated on looking
forward and helping our clients look forward, because we do
think that is a binary You're either at this point
with the future or clinging to the past. And we
think people who are embracing what I call the inevitable
are going to win in this new era. I think
what we're seeing in terms of the metaverse and Sarah,
I will cue you as well. Right now with the
(21:32):
current situation, especially when it comes to media and entertainment
at tech UM, such an intensification and applification again because
of this perfect storm, but in fragmentation of audiences. That
is the number one issue that our clients are dealing with.
This They understand that again demographics are unhelpful in terms
(21:52):
of reaching broad spots of audience. And we've seen this
explosion and fandom and this appetite for really small, smaller communities,
smaller conversations, but very immersive world building applications for each
of those individual UM subcultures or or fan bases. And
so whether that's virtual in the metaverse or I r
(22:15):
L and you're seeing UM. A lot of has been
written recently about the rise of live action role play.
Disney now has a whole immersive world that they built
where you can go stay and act out your fantasies
with with other characters and cast members are specific or
star wars. Yeah, but we're seeing it in in many
other I mean you see the bridgetin at activations that
(22:37):
people are crazy for going, um, you know, to to
really immerse themselves in these experiences. So the metaverse is
just a virtual way to do that. What we think
is really important is to understand how to segment your
audience based on cultural affinity. So we've been performing and
conducting a lot of cultural segmentation similar to the way
(22:58):
people used to do them to demograph quickly, but really
understanding um that you know, people have dog lovers have
more in common perhaps than you know women eighteen to
twenty four um. And so it's just again getting into
the wiring, becoming an insider and understanding what are all
the many different ways that people want to experience this
shared affinity and shared values. Uh. In the metaverse is
(23:21):
going to be a very exciting way to do that.
It's definitely something we're studying. We're getting asked about a lot.
I mean, if you're in culture, you need to be
sort of tracking this this ship for sure. I think
what's fascinating is a few things to keep in mind.
It's not like a light switch will be flipped on
and then all of a sudden, we're living in the metaverse.
I recorded a podcast a little while back on autonomous vehicles.
(23:44):
It's the same kind of thing. Our cars are already smarter,
We're already dipping our toe into the metaverse and a
lot of the ways that we're operating in our digital lives.
So I think it's more of a gradual thing than
in all of a sudden thing, even though we're seeing
a lot of um exciting uh and slightly a lot
mispressbact know the old you know, the old definition of bankruptcy.
Bankruptcy is something that happens very slowly and then very
(24:06):
quickly exactly exactly, so good and so terrible. So hopefully
that happens to nobody. But I think also when we
look at the metaverse, it's really important to look at
where digital engagement is very unique and offers opportunities that
really you can't replicate in real life. Whether it's scale,
(24:28):
more inclusive, I think that's where metaverse can really shine
versus trying to replace the magic of the tangible world,
and each has its benefits in its place. And I
think what's fascinating and some of the studies that I'm
most interested in reading about are as technologies become more widespread,
(24:49):
they start to become prey to the same biases and
systemic issues that happen in broader society. So yes, we're
already seeing discuss and around sexual assault in the metaverse
and issues along those lines. Similar frankly to how once
crypto became you know, professionalized and more adopted in a
(25:12):
mainstream way by brands, then you start to see it,
you know, become less inclusive and represent less of the
ideals and more like broader financial market problems. So I
think you can think of it in those terms. So
let me let me ask another question. As we look
back to twenty four months that felt like twenty four years,
and as we look forward, but looking back for one
(25:33):
moment over the let's say, the last year, is there
any content development, you know, aside from obviously the streaming
and and and and the like, are there any content
developments that stand out to you? You know, people are
standing back and saying, WHOA for me personally, a big
woe was in squid Game blew up. You know, we've
been watching global content obviously for a long time, and
(25:58):
you know, it's interesting because we've been attributing the sort
of broadening appetite for global content in you know, we
we will trace that back ten or fifteen years to
actually when people started really watching reality television in the
US and they got used to reading subtitles, which was
(26:18):
really interesting because if you watch a reality show even today,
there's always a segment where somebody is speaking with subtitles
because you can't hear them. They're drunk, they're speaking and jargon.
But that's sort of kind of mainstream normalized where because
there was always this bias that you know, everything from
television in the past fifty years as Americans won't read subtitles,
(26:40):
Americans won't do this, Americans won't do that. Well, I
think that reality television we saw really paved the way.
And then the other thing that happened with streaming is
just the algorithms started serving up, you know, shows that
you didn't really know where they came from, and the
production of shows even like Narco is where you have
(27:00):
that were American productions, but you had characters speaking in
Spanish the entire time with subtitles. These kinds of normalizations
of what used to be kind of for forbidden right
or for boting approaches to content are really being eliminated
by by just the proliferation of streaming. And with squid Game,
(27:20):
it was so interesting because the first time that really
an Asian piece of content on non Western piece content
really resonated in many parts of the world. Um And
I think that has huge implications for marketers. Marketers need
to understand that audiences are opening up to global ideas,
global faces, global languages, and that is something that has
(27:42):
not traditionally. You know, you have some marketers like Adidas
who have been very global from for a really long time,
and they've really been a pioneer even of just bringing
in really omniicultural, very diverse, different kinds of people, not
just racially but different economic um and you know, scales
as well as different levels of recognition, men with women,
(28:05):
different sports, mixing them all together, and I think that
kind of Nike also it's interesting in sports because the
sports are more global, but Nike also paved the way
with bringing in um different kinds of sounds and talent
from all over the world, and I think that global
market is really we're seeing it really accelerated right now
because of the pandemic, because people were more open to
(28:28):
different kinds of content. And again, you know, it goes
back to give me something different, give me something that's
not formulate, give me something I haven't seen before. And
so I think for marketers that's a great opportunity to say, well,
what does that look like to be even if your
US focused, to have a more global viewpoint interesting, Because
you're right, I've never been uncomfortable with subtitles. But on
(28:51):
all the streaming I did over the last twenty four months,
so many of these shows were in languages other than English.
For every dy on this podcast watched Call My Agent
in French, you know, and by the way that shows Youdemoiselle. Yeah,
and by the way that shows you know it now
has a British version, which is in English. Doesn't have
a U S version yet, but it also I believe
(29:12):
has South Korean, Turkey, Italian. So you know, a good
idea can translate in any language. But right, but any
language is no longer really a barrier for viewers, and
and you're interested as US viewers. Again, we're in an
Arab decline. We're interested in learning from other cultures because
other cultures. For example, k K culture is incredibly a
(29:35):
senate K culture is what American culture did in the
twentieth century. K culture is doing now because it's music,
it's books, it's film, it's everything, right, fashions. So these
cues from a macro level are really important because they
can make a brand field dated or forward looking. Yeah, no, no,
(29:55):
it's it's so true. And you know, I'm sad that
we have a limited amount of time today, but we're
definitely doing a hood do in in in the spirit
of of language in French. Uh, mademoiselle, Well okay, you
(30:16):
lost me there. Now I'm done wine after a lot
of wine exactly. Um. Let me let me ask you
the question I always love to ask, but particularly to
the two of you, if you had a crystal ball,
because part of what you do is crystal ball, Like
(30:37):
you're taking data and and listening and and and looking forward,
you know, because culture isn't only what it is now
where it's going. You know. The thing I used to
say about a particular demographic that marketers are always searching
for the holy grail of that certain demo. The problem
(30:58):
is you can't find them. They have to find you
because if you find them, it's too late, so they're
already on to the next when you find them. So
you have to I mean not just I know this
isn't your question, but I do because you gave me
the ends to, like a lawyer, have to go there.
Let's just talk about data for a second. The issue
with data is the minute you have that information, it's old, right,
(31:22):
and it's the same for a focus group. The minute
you ask a consumer do you like this? Do you
not like this? You can't act on that because they've
already made up their mind. What culture allows us to
do because we'll we'll ingest all the data, but we
don't talk to consumers. We analyze all of the inputs
that speak to them and drive their decisions. So we're
typically able to, you know, accurately, anticipate shifts in culture
(31:46):
one to two years before they come to the mainstream
because we're looking at stuff that's emergent. We're not we're
actually not crystal ball gazing, but you know, understand the phrase,
but we're actually looking at the new breadcrumbs that are emerging. Right, No,
you said it earlier, Linda or Sarah, one of you
said it. The cues that we get are the things
that lead us to you know, the next the next
(32:08):
new thing. Right, we see the cues if we're listening,
if we're looking. It's true when we look at things.
You know, if an analyst was starting out of this
in this industry, they might have nerves like, hell, I know,
I'm right. Well, because it's what's happening in culture. We're
just seeing it and connecting the dots in a way
that might escape some people. So nothing, nothing we're doing
(32:29):
is coming out of thin air. But but back to
your question, I'm eager to hear an answer. You know again,
do you see a tidal wave coming? Do you see another?
I mean, we talked about metaverse, we talked about web
two point five or three and n F T s. Again,
if you're prognosticating, and again, I know you're not in
(32:49):
the business of prognosticating, but you are to some degree. Yeah,
you like to say, we're in the business of anticipating
better better choice of words. Um, as you're anticipating, is
there something particular that you could share that you're anticipating sure,
I think right now. As Linda mentioned, we study everything,
(33:09):
so there's there's shifts in basically all sectors that we're studying.
One that we find particularly worthy and notable, I would
say is the mental health crisis is really prominent right now,
especially among younger generations, which of course we're always The
reason why we love to study younger generations is because
they're going to grow up to be the future, right
(33:30):
It's such an important focus for anyone who's looking at
emergent developments and culture. Mental health crisis is really really
a key, a key problem that I think everyone, every
brand should be paying attention to because our perspective of
the world really um dictates how humans engage with it
and whether you can engage with it on stable terms.
(33:53):
The world's growing more chaotic, so that's increasingly difficult. Linda
and I actually in the end of February put ourselves
in a neural feedback training program because we're very interested
in neurofeedback as a mechanism. Um In addition to traditional
psychology psychiatry, we're also studying the advent of psychedelics as well,
(34:14):
in their increasing research being done on them. Hopefully macent
approval by the f D A. UM, we're very interested
in how these tools are really going to help shift
the way generations, especially younger generations, feel empowered to engage
with the world. We actually have been. We just did
an i G t V live on our our Instagram site.
(34:36):
Will be posting in a bit with the neuroscientist at
the program and really my you know, the the what
I'm really eagerly anticipating is the application of neuroscience in
the workplace. So we've all been in corporations where teams
have done Myers Briggs tests and disk assessments and all
kinds of tools that are really self assessments and very subjective. UM.
(34:59):
But if you can imagine the application of neuroscience and
neuro feedback to really understand is Sarah and I went
together and we understand now how our brains work very
differently and why we're good partners. So I think that
those kinds of UM, you know, and neuroscience is really
at its infancy now. So that's a really exciting gruntier
for the workplace. Well, I would just add one of
(35:20):
the things that I am the most passionate about, which
you guys wouldn't have been aware of. But I'm on
the board of something called Project Healthy Minds, which is
an organization that is focused on exactly this, on the
mental health crisis that we are really experiencing in this
in this country, in this world. And you know, the
stigma that comes with mental health and the unwillingness for
(35:43):
people to talk and share, and you know, the rise
of suicide, not only team suicide but across the board.
But the mental health crisis is real and and and palpable,
and it was exacerbated by these last twenty four months
because the impact that we've seen and what the studies
are showing, and you know this better than I, the
(36:05):
impact of what we went through over the last twenty
four months as a as a as a race, as
a human and the last legacy about too right because
long is long COVID, by the way, is one physical
manifestation long mental right. But to that point, you know,
much of the research on long COVID will take place
(36:27):
in the brain. And so that's why brain science we
really you know, Sara and I attended this course because
we already were sensing the neuroscience was the new front here,
you know, in the way that and this is important
I think for marketers because you know we've gone through
as now we understand physical health is important, right, diet, fitness, exercise,
(36:50):
all that we now have gone through this period where
emotional and you know a lot of these things that
have come out that have been exposed by the pandemic,
a lot of emotion, emotional health, mental health has been exposed.
But neurological health, brain health. You know, to Sarah's point,
people are reaching to hallucinogenics and other therapies. Well, what
(37:10):
we learned in our in our program was that your
brain has the capacity to make itself high. And so
you we don't really if we understand in brain science
is really in its infancy. So there is a whole
market that is emerging that is not new, it's already
emerging in terms of new tropics. And you know tech
(37:31):
for the brain. And but imagine and this was mentioned
by our Nerve scientists. Imagine your fitness tracker that you
have that measures your steps and your and your heart
rate can monitor your brain ways. You're excited because what
we learned is that if you respect your brain, you
(37:51):
learn how your brain works, and you respect that um
just like you learn how your body works in the gym.
You know, it brings me back to one of my
favorite folksinger from a different era, Gordon Lightfoot, if you
could read my mind, I love that song. I love
that song and believe I conjured that one up. But
Sarah and Linda, this has been an extraordinary pleasure for
(38:13):
me because we're talking about things that you know, make
our world spin and and you know, having your perspective
and insights is something that is extraordinarily valuable not only
to your partners and clients and companies and people that
you advise, but to our listeners on good Companies. So
you know, with that, I want to thank you for
(38:35):
spending this time, and I want to thank you for
sharing your true wisdom and experience with our listeners. So
Linda and Sarah, thank you very much. Extreme I'm Michael Casson,
thanks for listening to Good Company. Good Company is a
(38:56):
production of I Heart Radio. Special Thanks to Lena pe Nderstand,
chief brand Officer and Managing director of for her vision
of Good Company, and to Jen Seely, vice President Marketing
Communications of Media Link for programming, amazing talent and content
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