July 24, 2024 • 40 mins
USWNT legend Abby Wambach joins Sarah to talk about her expectations for the current U.S. soccer team and head coach Emma Hayes at the Paris Olympics. She also discusses why fearlessness is necessary to perform in big moments, and the time in her own career when she felt like the worst player on the team.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, the show that
just got even louder, prouder, boulder and braver, more charismatic,
more charming, more hilarious. We're sassy, sexy, and always searching
for a spotlight because it's Leo season, babe.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
On today's show, we're going to give you a scouting
report for the Zambia Copper Queens ahead of Team usay's
Olympic soccer opener. Talk to US soccer icon Abby Wambach
about her confidence in the US team headed into the games,
plus Jill Ellis and soccer's culture problems, and so much more.
But first, here's what you need to know today. The
US women's national team plays its first soccer match of
(00:39):
the Olympic Tournament tomorrow against Zambia. More on that game
coming up later in the show. The viewership numbers for
the twenty twenty four WNBA All Star Game were incredible.
Per the Athletics Richard Deitsch, the game had a record
three point four to four million viewers. The previous record
was one point four million. Women's soops, y'all, like a
(01:01):
mother rocket ship, we've got another female athlete cover star
this time. It's Team USA gymnast Jordan Childs, who Grace
is the cover of teen Vogues July August edition. We
cannot wait to watch her in Paris. Christina Williams new
women's basketball podcast, In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams,
(01:21):
launches today. Every week, she's going to break down the
biggest headlines and women's soups and sit down with some
of the biggest names in the game. You can listen
on the iHeartRadio app and wherever podcasts are streamed. We're
all very pumped to watch the US women's soccer team
open up their Olympic campaign tomorrow, July twenty fifth against
Zambia in Group B play at staud Denise in Nice, France.
(01:43):
You can watch the game at three pm Eastern on
USA Network, Universo and Peacock. Here's what you need to
know about the Zambian team. We're going to start with
the unsettling and ongoing investigation into their coach. Head coach
Bruce Moape will not be allowed to have any private
contact with his players at the games, and yet he's
still been granted a visa to lead the team despite
(02:04):
an ongoing investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct against him.
FIFA is still investigating claims that Wape rubbed his hands
over the chest of a player after a training session
at last year's World Cup. The Guardian also revealed in
May that he was accused of intentionally touching a FIFA
contractor's breast at the same tournament. Before last year's World Cup,
(02:25):
Wape was the subject of an investigation into allegations of
sexual misconduct by a number of players. He has previously
denied the accusations. It feels like every single international tournament
we're having a conversation about a team who is expected
to play despite toxic environment created by their coach, their federation,
or some other combination of people. And Zambia is the
(02:46):
latest example of players who are going to be expected
to compete at the highest level despite all of that.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Going on on and off the pitch.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Sort of hard to believe that a coach would be
allowed to coach a team while still not being allowed
to have private contact with any of them, the players.
But here we are speaking of the players. Let's get
to these incredible Zambian players known as the Copper Queens,
and where else can we start? But Barbara Banda with
fifty three goals in sixty international games and twelve goals
(03:16):
in twelve games in the NWSL this season. The Orlando
Pride striker is one of the best forwards in the world,
and we already know she can go off on a
big stage. In the Tokyo Games, she had two hat tricks.
In fact, Banda is the first and only player of
any gender to score three goals in back to back
games in Olympic history. Forward Rachel Kundananji, who represented Zambia
(03:37):
both in Tokyo and at the twenty twenty three World Cup,
is an NWSL player as well. She suits up for
expansion side BAFC, and midfielder Grace Chanda is set to
join Banda in Orlando following the Olympics. Also, this Olympic
opener will be the first meeting all time between the
US women's national team and Zambia. Bottom line is Zambia
didn't advance out of their group in either the last
(03:58):
Olympics or the World Cup.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
But if Barbara Banda is on.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
The field, absolutely no team is safe, especially since this
US team has struggled to score, putting up just four
goals in four games. At last year's World Cup and
again going scoreless in their final friendly with Costa Rica.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Will the US change course in France? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Old habits die screaming. While I'm optimistic about this killer
trio of Trinity Rodman, Sophia Smith and a very healthy
mouse Swanson, they still got to prove it. The US
scorers better finish where this is going to be a
very short vacance in France. Finally, a Zambia fun fact.
Their national symbol, the African fish eagle, looks a lot
(04:39):
like America's bald eagle, So in true American fashion, I
had to find out whether our eagle was better than
their eagle. And based on the highly respected and definitely
fully vetted website animalmatchup dot com and using the infallible
truthiness of AI to create a simulated battle the bald Eagle,
(05:00):
our bald eagle, bigger and faster, wins quote. In a
thrilling display of strength and skilled the bald eagle emerges
as the victor in the epic battle against the African
fish eagle. With its powerful beacon sharp talents, the baald
eagle has proven itself as the ultimate predator.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Of the Skies, Take that, Zambia.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
When we come back, Abby Wambach and I ruin one
of your favorite books from childhood by analyzing it through
the lens of feminism and climate change.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Come on back.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Abby Wambach is a two time Olympic gold medalist, a
World Cup champion, a six time winner of the US
Soccer Athlete of the Year award, and a member of
the National Soccer Hall of Fame. She is still the
highest all time goal scorer for the US national team,
and her one hundred and eighty four international goals are
second all time for both female and male players. She's
part of the ownership group for Angel City FC of
(05:54):
the National Women's Soccer League, one of three co hosts
of the wildly successful podcast We Can Do Hard Things.
She's responsible for one of my all time favorite sporting
moments just her head was her header in one hundred
and twenty second minute of the twenty eleven World Cup
against Brazil. And according to the Internet, Abby and I
share the same favorite book. But do you cry every
(06:15):
single time you read it, Abby, or.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Is that just me?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Okay? What's the book?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
According to the Internet, It's The Giving Tree.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Okay, Sarah, This is a good place to start, because
I have been in therapy for the last like I
don't know, a year or so, and I was just
talking about this with my therapist the other day. I
think that maybe I have to revise this answer of
it being my favorite book. And I think you will
(06:45):
track with me here the idea, the whole idea of
just giving, of just giving and expecting nothing in return,
and giving and expecting nothing in return. For me, as
a people pleaser, somebody who really likes to avoid conflict,
this book fit fit my parts really well, fair and
(07:09):
it has made it very difficult for me in a
lot of ways. And we don't need to keep talking
about this, but I have to say that I think
that maybe I'm appalled with this book. I get the intention,
but it feels very not feminist. It feels very like
wife in the kitchen just to accept the little crumbs
(07:33):
that she gets in her family systems.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So I don't know, not only not favorite, but fully
anti the giving tree at this point. So I guess
my thing is, first of all, I've never had trouble
being too giving. I'm a very generous person, but I've
always had very set boundaries on how much I'm willing
to give versus what I should be demanding. But also
the book to me was more of a warning than
it was happy. That's why I ball at the end,
(08:00):
because I don't think you're supposed to be like, oh,
the tree, that's a great example.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It was like that kid, yes, and this is the world.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
The world keeps taking and taking and taking, and the
tree is trying to show us what life looks like
if you're generous, but when you don't get it in return,
And that, to me is also about nature, the tree
of nature.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And the boy was man. And that's why I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Like, why you went to Ivy League school and I
did not?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
You got it well? Either way.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
I still cry every time I think about it, and
it makes me angry, and yet it's still my favorite,
which is maybe something I should go to therapy for.
We're going to get back to therapy and your podcasts
and how it is my personal therapy. But I want
to talk Olympics just to start, because we are one
day away. Tomorrow, the US women open their competition against Zambia.
It's their first big tournament under their new head coach,
Emma Hayes. A legend in England, a cheeky babe who
(08:51):
comes in and we are expecting her to turn this
team into the magic that we used to see on
the regular. What do you think the biggest difference we're
going to see with Emma at the Helm versus the
four years under save lad Gwandanowski.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Good question, difficult answer. First of all, I had the
pleasure of working with Emma a long long time ago,
back with the Washington Freedom, back in like the WUSA days,
And she's wonderful. She's smart, she's funny, she's tough. She
has the kind of personality I think to get the
(09:23):
most out of the players. And you know, it's tough
because these Olympics, it's eighteen players. To go from a
World Cup roster down to eighteen, that's five or you know,
depending on alternates, that's a lot of bodies that you've
got to decide who your team is going to be,
(09:43):
and in many ways, for her, who she's setting up
to begin her tenure at US Soccer. So I when
I was a player, we went through rebuilding years, We
had difficult times that we had to kind of start
fresh and and and you know, I think that Emma
(10:05):
is going to have a challenge ahead of her because
the rest of the world is getting so much more competitive,
and also in some ways, clearly when we saw the
last World Cup, they're getting better, you know, they're getting
They're they're not just catching up anymore. They're they're in
many ways better than Yeah, they're better. And I feel
(10:28):
I feel excited and also a little nervous, just because
it's a new coach. How are the players going to
respond to her? How is she going to turn the
tide so that we can become what we all kind
of hope, love and expect about watching our team play.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
The The.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Talent is there, the players are good enough. It's the
thing about some of the coaches that have been so profound,
so profoundly helpful at managing how to bring all of
that extraordinary talent together. And it's not an easy thing.
It's not you just got to do this one thing
(11:10):
right and you'll make it work. It's all of these little,
teeny minuscule details that have to kind of these puzzle
pieces have to actually link up and come together right
before world events for those world events to actually come
and go our way. We're going to compete. I'm excited.
(11:33):
I love watching World Championships. I love the Olympics, especially
because it's you know, there's all the other players, all
the other athletes, all the other sports they're competing, and
so we just get this little like fraction of the
Olympic Games. But it's I'm excited to see what she
can do. I'm a little bit nervous around the age
(11:54):
of this team. It's very young, and like, on the
same note, it's like, okay, like, how if I were her,
what would I do? Would I want to start fresh?
Would want to would I want to build my own
group of players so that we could be good for
the next and dominant for the next ten years. I
don't know. Good luck, Emma, good luck to the girls.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, good luck, Emma. You know you mentioned this.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
We talk a lot about other teams catching up or
even passing by the US, and particularly with other countries
having distinct style differences, skill focus, different tactics in sort
of lay person's terms. When we're watching this Olympics, will
we be able to see how the US uses a
different tactics or approach than other countries that are having
success or do you expect us to notice even from
(12:40):
what we watch at the World Cup to this new
Emma Hayes led team.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Oh they're doing something real different.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Now, great question. I'm excited to learn that myself. I
haven't had too much time to watch her, her be there,
you know, her be at the helm leading this team.
Only a couple of games they've done, and well, I've
heard good things. But at the end of the day,
(13:04):
when you get into a World Championship, the stakes are
so much higher and the players have to bring a
kind of outsized confidence to themselves and to each other.
And a lot of times, in my experience leadership, the
older players who have been there before often gave the
(13:26):
younger players in some ways kind of the sense of confidence.
I mean, the amount of huddles that I would be
in and I'd be like, look, if you're worried, if
you're freaking out, I get it. I know what it's
like to be here. Just look at me, Just look
at me in the way that I'm playing. And I
don't know if we have that kind of leadership in
terms of veteran age wise. You know, I know, Lindsay
(13:47):
Hernn is going to be doing her best wearing the
captain's band and a listen there, my gosh, she's done
so well for us over the last many years, and
I hope that they can bring that kind of confidence
in themselves, because when you're out there and you're nervous
and you don't know necessarily how to deal with all
(14:09):
this pressure, what are you going to do?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Right?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
You got to look to your left and look to
your right and get that confidence from your teammates. And
I just hope that they can bring that sense of
confidence with them throughout this first group stage.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, that leadership guidance thing from the Vets. We've talked
about it a lot, in part because of Alex Morgan
not making the cut, and it's made us sort of
look around to the other veterans on that team that
might step up. Do you remember any specific language guidance
leadership from a VET that stuck with you when you
were new to the national team, any one particular person
(14:42):
or maybe quote that you held onto.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Good question. Honestly, I got onto the team right after
the ninety nine World Cup, and these players became worldwide
like phenoms, you know, Mia Hamm and Julie Foudy and
Christine Lilly, like these women who really like built women's
soccer in this country, and so I didn't It wasn't
(15:10):
necessarily what they said, it was how they played. It
was like how they treated each other. And I just
I remember being super young, just promising myself to be
a sponge, just to learn everything that I possibly could
and do whatever they wanted me to do. Early on
as a young player, you know, I was one of
(15:31):
the best on most of the teams that I played on,
and then here I find myself on the best team
in the world, becoming the worst player on the team.
And so I just remember finding myself feeling like it
was the game was too fast and I couldn't catch
up to the play or their thought process or anything.
And so just promising myself not to check out, to
(15:54):
stay in it, to be challenged, to confront my own
my own sense of self right, and to be like
am I good enough? And so there were days, I
swear to God, there were days that I came off
the field and I went back into my hotel room
and I was like, I am actually the worst player here.
(16:16):
And the question that I had to keep asking myself was, Okay,
you just need to make small games. You just need
to make a small bit of difference day after day
after day, and then slowly lo and behold, a little
sense of confidence will spark. I'll score a goal, I'll
make an assist. A player after a game will come
(16:38):
up to me and be like, yo, that was really great.
But one thing I promised myself to do was I
wasn't going to ever let somebody else work harder than me.
That was the only thing I could control. My confidence
was going to go up and down, my statistics would
go up, up and down, but my ability to put
(16:59):
in the work and the effort, and that was, honestly
something I struggled with in college. Was just like work
ethic and hard work and consistency, and.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
That's shocking to me. That's shocking.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
But then I also, if I remember correctly, in youth soccer,
you had like thirty goals in a game once. So
I feel like maybe it came a little too easy
to you at the beginning. I mean, you really did
peak at like eight.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Unfortunately I just came five five.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
It came a little too easy too, And then eventually
you needed to get enough of a challenge to decide, Oh,
I guess I have to work at this.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Would would that we all had that problem.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
It's just too easy, you know, chemistry with coach, chemistry
with team. I feel like sometimes my favorite teams I've
watched from the beginning of the season and not known
that they were going to go on to win it all,
but seen something special. They felt super tight, they felt
super connected in a way that you know, you're playing
the backwards game of like, oh, you could see this coming.
(17:54):
But I wonder how important you think that is and
can enough talent overcome either a lack of chemistry with
team or coach. I mean, we certainly saw in the
World Cup with Spain that those women managed to blow
past every obstacle that the Spanish Soccer Federation put in
front of them, including their coach, and win the whole
damn thing. That's not ideal, that's not what we want
(18:15):
players to go through. But is that some sort of
proof that, like it doesn't you don't need all that
chemistry with coach, or maybe that you just need it
with team.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah, good question. I think I think as it relates
to I've played on teams before that we all kind
of banded together in spite of a coach that we've
won World championships. I also have played under coaches that
we loved and won. I know it's a lot easier,
(18:45):
a lot more fun when you like and you respect
that coach, right, And I also know that it's just
a lot more difficult, but it's still possible, right, So yes,
the coach matters because they're the ones that are deciding
who's on the field, when they're on the field, what tactic,
all of that. But at the end of the day,
it's eleven players out there. Right. We had a coach
(19:07):
at one point who tried to change the formation at
the end of the game of a gold medal medal match,
and our captain was like no, She was like no,
that like, we are gonna We're going to stay the course.
We're going to do what we do, and we ended
up winning that gold medal that year. And I think
that I think that there is always a moment that
(19:29):
all the World Championships, I was able to be a
part of that. I could draw back a couple of
months prior to the World Championship starting, and I could
I could remember like a single practice where everything just
like kind of clicked it, like it was like the
perfect moment, like the perfect gelling, the perfect environment. Everybody
(19:53):
was like flying, playing hard at their peak. You could
tell everybody was as committed as the other. And I
hope that I hope that for our team that this
summer in Paris, I hope that they can look around
and get the sense that this is a team that
(20:15):
could win, because in the end, there's so many factors, right, Like,
you can have the right team, you can even have
the right coach, but then you could have a referee
that makes a mistake, or you could have a moment
where another team steps up and just has the game
of their lives, right Like, there's it.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Could be a deflection, Yeah, something as simple as a deflection.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Exactly, And so you just never know. And so there
is this element of like luck or what I call
the soccer gods. They just kind of need to be
on your side in those knockout round games in order
for you to be standing on that top podium come
the end of the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, a lot of people use meditation, visualization, self talk,
their favorite music, get those nerves handled right before big
tournaments like this. Did you have a trick and or
did one of your teammates have something extremely quirky that
you were like, I don't know what's going on over there,
but if it works, like go for it.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Yeah, you know, it's funny. I think about this a
lot now because I am kind of baffled at my
own self. I'm on a self love journey and I
cannot believe the person that I am now in this
body today, almost ten years since I played. I cannot
(21:33):
believe that I did the things that I did. And
so I think a lot about like kind of the
psychology and the and for lack of a better word,
like kind of the spirituality that goes into and the
energy that goes into playing on a team full of
women that go out into the field and play a
(21:54):
game and try to try to triumph over their opponents.
And yes, I did have some weird things that I
did prior to the game. But what I want to
talk about, which I think the average person listening ps,
I'm an average person now, So I put myself backus
(22:16):
average us, average folks listening.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
We're not buying it, but carry on.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
We have this capacity within us that I think prevents
us from achieving some of the things we want in
our lives. And it's this ability to plant a flag
in the ground, and the flag says I care the most,
and I think our vulnerability, our fear of vulnerability, prevents
(22:45):
us from doing it, our fear of embarrassment, just like
our fear in general. I wanted my teammates to always
know that I cared, like the most what this outcome was. Right.
If we won, I was going to celebrate the most.
If we lost, I was going to take the most
(23:07):
responsibility for that loss. I knew that my team's uh
success relied a lot on whether I scored goals for us.
Now that doesn't mean that I was the only one
that that created wins and losses for our team. There
was a lot of elements that went into it. But
I do know that this energy and this this fearlessness
(23:30):
to looking at each other being like we care about
this a lot like our own, like almost as if
our life depends on it. And honestly though that this
is not a healthy way. I actually believed in my
cells that my life depended on winning games. In some ways,
it did because you know, my money, endorsements and all
(23:54):
that stuff mattered so that I could like have the
things in my life that I had, but also like
on an energetic level. Like I think that that is
one of the things that draws people into our women's
national team so much, is because we don't fear planting
that flag and saying I care the most, I give
(24:14):
the most hits about this.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, You've talked about this on your podcast, even talking
about watching your kids play and Glennon not being your wife,
Glennon Doyle not being an athlete necessarily herself watching and
being amazed and impressed that people are earnestly giving their
best and putting it all out there and being vulnerable
in wanting so badly to win. And I think as
athletes we take that so for granted. And you know,
(24:38):
looking back as an athlete myself, same as you, it's like,
I sometimes I am amazed that I just was willing
to go out there and be like, I'm trying my
very hardest at something and if I fail, You're going
to know that I tried really hard and I still
couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
And I think that's a lot for some people.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
And I think, honestly, this is why when we have
watched some of the greatest athletes in the world of
all time, when we watch them play there's something about
them that draws us in. And yes, of course it's
because we assume that they're going to score that point,
score that goal, you know, throw the ball, well whatever,
(25:13):
But it also is in the way that they respond
to the moment. So the big moment against Brazil where
I score with my head, right, I deeply believe that
this moment only happens because there is this this first
of all, my fearlessness, heinos fearlessness in the moment of
(25:37):
going I don't care what happens. I care the most though,
that we're going to try, right. And so yeah, it's
like when you're a viewer of this and you're watching this,
you're like, yes, so much is on the line. But
watching people go, I'm going to give me the ball.
I can do it the last moment, the last second
(26:00):
play Michael Jordan, whoever? Yeah, and then and then and
then all of the other people in the world watching
this moment energetically willing this moment to happen. Like to me,
I just I find it's so fascinating. There's going to
I'm sure there's gonna be more science proving me correct
around that the energy of these moments matter. So watch
(26:24):
the team play, like send them good vibes, like positive
thinking this thing, that this moment could be the one
moment that changes the game.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So cool chills just thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Every time I think about that goal and everything that
had to happen right in an exact moment. You know,
we're hearing a lot about gender parody at this Olympics,
and we of course love the increased numbers of women
competitors in the US has more women than men this
year as well, But there's only twelve women's soccer teams
and there's sixteen men's that ain't parody. Do you want
to see the women's tournament get up to sixteen too?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I would love. I would love a bigger tournament for
a lot of reasons. I think that logistics play a
difficult role in this, and the length from opening ceremonies
to closing ceremonies, I think is much shorter than like
a World Cup length of a tournament. HI producer Alex
(27:20):
asi here noted, Olympic expert hate to nitpick, but it's
actually opening ceremony singular. Same goes for the closing ceremony,
So people don't really know this very often or even
are conscious of this. But the women's soccer teams, and
I think all the soccer games start before the opening Olympics,
(27:43):
before the ceremonies, so they can fit in the group
stage and then the knockout around stage games because otherwise
the games are just too close together and it's really different.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Well, already two days is crazy for a turnover for
a soccer athlete.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, but the fact that the men have a bigger
pool of teams, to me, it's just you know, FIFA
and the IOFC, this is like kind of they're just
very slow to jump on board with the way of
at least American world right. Yeah, I would love to
(28:20):
see them.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
I think it's coming though.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I think we're seeing enough other countries that are improving
their federations that we're going to almost have to expand
that field. In your final World Cup, you played under
head coach Jill Ellis. She's now the president of the
San Diego Wave in the NWSL. She's been the subject
of recent criticism from former employees. Your former national team
teammate Sidney LaRue told the podcast a few years ago, quote,
(28:44):
we won in spite of her. She's not good for
people's mental health, that's for sure. The best thing was
for her to go unquote. There's still a lot of
reporting to be done about what happened with the wave
in general. But I wonder, you know why you think
women's soccer is still struggling with so many instances of
complaints about toxic workplaces. We saw a massive investigation in
(29:06):
the NWSL a couple of years ago that forced a
lot of coaches and owners out. And is there something
about the subjectivity of soccer where you can really convince
people that person isn't playing because we're in a different
format or you know, we're doing a different strategy and
that's why, and that subjectivity allows for mind games and
the bullshit that we see. Or why is soccer struggling
(29:29):
with this not just in Dan Diebussel, but the global level?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
That question I have been asking also, Sarah. I don't
have an answer for this. I think probably what's happened
is the popularity of women's soccer grew faster than the
(29:53):
small town, small business owner mentality of some of the clubs,
the owners, the the understanding of you know, old school
versus modern ways of thinking, and there's a there's been
(30:14):
a transition period, right that has I think kind of
been difficult for some of the older coachings, you know,
the players and that became coaches. We were all raised
playing under coaches in certain ways, with certain cultures, with
certain mindsets. Uh. And now this younger generation has come
(30:37):
in and there's just like a different vibe, rightfully. So
of course, like every new generation that comes in, they
think differently because they've experienced the world differently. And I
don't think that the two have caught up. I don't
think that they're they're like seeing eye to eye. I
don't know that answer. I really don't. And and and
(31:00):
it makes me sad in so many ways because I
don't think that one side is all right and the
other side is all wrong. I really don't. I do
think that there are, like, you know, obvious bad actors
that need to be on the outside of these teams,
that need to not be working in women's sports ever. Again,
(31:22):
I think that I think that, you know, I don't.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
I don't know much about the Jill Ellis situation, and
I can't really speak to it, but I do know
my experience with Jill, and it has always been positive.
She's always had the like the team's best interest at heart. Uh.
And I understand that, like when players don't get minutes
(31:49):
and don't and aren't given what they think that they deserve.
I also understand that that it's hard to be objective
in those moments. It really is. It's hard to know. Now,
I'm not talking about sexual assault here. I'm not talking
about some of the coaching the coaches that have have
(32:10):
really violated the players and their and their rights. But
being in a coaching position is really difficult because you
have to make hard decisions that really affect players' lives.
But I just think that it's like a young, a
young industry that is also being seen by a lot
more people now popularity wise, and the expectation of of
(32:35):
you know, NFL level professionalism is there, but it's just
not we haven't had that many years in existence to
have that level of professionalism or even like a way
of operating. I mean, listen, it's like a brand new business,
like we've got to figure out more, you know. And
(32:57):
I bet if we were to go back at at
the beginning of all these huge, you know, major league
sports that we now watch and love, I bet that
they had a ton of issues you know that we
don't remember.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, and a lot of them still do. Exactly a
lot of them still do. And I do think you know,
it's it's an unfair question in part because it's like
basically asking why are there issues anytime women are involved
in anything in the world.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Exactly, It's like, well, let's.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Start with, like, you know, the patriarchy and all the
other things that trickle down into the literally everything we do.
I love your podcast so much. It has literally changed
my life. And I know you've heard that from so
many people, millions of people. I listen to every episode.
I take so much away from it, including the episodes
that I start and I think this isn't going to
(33:44):
be for me, and by the end, I go, gosh,
I learned so much and it makes me see people
who have this or do that or feel this way differently.
Just has made me a better human being. I wonder
what you're digging into right now. Are you reading a book,
are you circling a topic, are you like honed on
something that you're thinking you want to bring to the pot.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Well, yeah, the my update on my brother passing away
is coming out pretty soon, So I am I am
pretty deep in the grief game right now, and it is.
It has been hard and terrifying and beautiful and difficult
(34:25):
and probably one of the most illuminating things that's ever
happened in my life as a person on this planet.
And so yeah, I'm definitely in the I'm kind of
in this weird like mortality place where I'm accepting that
I'm going to die because I think that I avoided it,
(34:47):
like like the plague my whole life.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Like a lot of us.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Yeah, And I am also coming to terms with like
I'm trying like the thing that I'm trying on right now,
like as a as a way of thinking or like
a philosophy is like equal parts. Everything matters, all the
things matter, and then also nothing matters. Yeah, Like I
(35:18):
can't wrap my mind around how everything is everything and
nothing is also and everything is also nothing? Yeah, Like
how it can it can end just like that? And
then how can I how can I rationalize or or
(35:39):
choose to participate in my life in a way that
brings me meaning? And then I go down the rabbit
hole like well then what like what is meaning making?
And why am I actually doing it? Is it just
to pass the time? Is it to make myself feel
good while I pass the time while I'm here, And
so I'm just like in this weird like existential and
(36:03):
I don't want to say mid life crisis because I
think we get that. I think that it's wrong to stay.
I think it's like mid life questioning where I'm like, yeah,
I just like awakening crisis. It makes me feel like
I'm pulling my hair out and like going to buy
like a red Porsche or something like. No, I'm just
like I'm like sitting with like real questions and I'm
(36:25):
really trying to understand. I don't know ram Das. He
has this awesome documentary called Becoming Nobody, and essentially this
really rings true to me. Essentially, like the idea of
human's life is like, we spend so much of our time,
especially the first half of our life, becoming somebody. And
(36:48):
this documentary is like and it's Buddhist and meditative and
trying to be hitting, you know, trying to find nirvana
and enlightenment. And I think the the idea of becoming
nobody is something that I think that that might be
the journey that I'm going to be going on for
the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
This is going to help a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Talking about grief and talking about this point in your
life is going to help a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I know.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I was an a void for a long time and
then had my friend and her mother who had a
terminal illness on my podcast, and listening to her perspective
on knowing what was coming and her daughter's perspective on
knowing she was going to lose her mom and having
to really face that conversation with them was actually incredibly freeing.
And so I look forward to hearing that and for
all your listeners to get to hear it. I'm also
(37:37):
really looking forward to you and glennon breaking down the soccer.
I'm some of my favorite times are just watching you
guys film watching the soccer and glennon explaining things like
offsides and bringing all these people in with your orange
slice mentality of you know, whatever you know or don't
know about it, let's all watch it together.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
So that's going to be super fun. Abby, You're the best.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Thanks as always for coming on having a soccer insight,
life insight, and everybody listened to we can do hard things.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
It's the best, awesome. Thank you so much. Sarah.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
After the break, we'll tell you what to put in
your ear holes stick around.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Oh hi again.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
As always, we do love that you're listening, but we
want you to get in the game every day as well.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So here's our good Game play of the day.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
And it's another easy one just subscribe to in case
you missed it. With Christina Williams, it launches today. She's
going to be your go to source for women's hoops,
offering up breaking news, highlights, analysis and expert insights. Christina
is an excellent journalist and a friend and we couldn't
be more excited for her here at Good Game. So
go listen and go get them Christina and another great
(38:47):
listen the recap show Soccer Greats and Power couple Tobin
Heath and Kristen Press talk about all things soccer, and
in the latest episode, they get into how soccer match
is happening before the opening ceremony and in cities outside
of the main host city kind of make soccer players
feel like outsiders at the Olympics. In fact, in a
previous episode, Kristen talked about how she was in the
Rio Olympics and has never been to Rio.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Great Conversations on that podcast. Check out the recap show.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
If you like what you hear, and guess what, even
if you don't, please subscribe and follow the podcast seriously,
like right now, just like right now, hit.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
That button for us and maybe leave a review.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
We might read it on the show, just like this
one from panteen Minus, which I guess is like panteen plus.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I just got that. I just I just got that.
Panteen Minus. Props to you.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Panting minus wrote yay and finally a podcast solely about
women's sports.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yes, and it's brilliantly written, hosted, and produced.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Beyond thrill to have Sarah Spain back in the daily
podcast rotation.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Thank you panteen Minus. See rating and reviewing is so easy?
How about another? Fireflies rating five out of five stars.
Review they don't buy, they don't.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Carry diseases, Nature's Nightlight, no notes, don't forget. You can
always hit us up on our email good game at
wondermedianetwork dot com or on social at Sarah Spain on
Twitter once I recover my account from the Russian hackers,
or you can even leave us a voicemail message eight
seven two two four fifty seventy Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
See you tomorrow. Good Game, Jordan Chiles, Good.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Game, Bald Eagle, you whoever hacked my Twitter account? Good
Game with Sarah Spain is an iheartwomen's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzi
and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
And Emily Rudder.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Our editors are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder, Bretney Martinez and
Grace Lynch. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your
Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, the show that
just got even louder, prouder, boulder and braver, more charismatic,
more charming, more hilarious. We're sassy, sexy, and always searching
for a spotlight because it's Leo season, babe.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
On today's show, we're going to give you a scouting
report for the Zambia Copper Queens ahead of Team usay's
Olympic soccer opener. Talk to US soccer icon Abby Wambach
about her confidence in the US team headed into the games,
plus Jill Ellis and soccer's culture problems, and so much more.
But first, here's what you need to know today. The
US women's national team plays its first soccer match of
(00:39):
the Olympic Tournament tomorrow against Zambia. More on that game
coming up later in the show. The viewership numbers for
the twenty twenty four WNBA All Star Game were incredible.
Per the Athletics Richard Deitsch, the game had a record
three point four to four million viewers. The previous record
was one point four million. Women's soops, y'all, like a
(01:01):
mother rocket ship, we've got another female athlete cover star
this time. It's Team USA gymnast Jordan Childs, who Grace
is the cover of teen Vogues July August edition. We
cannot wait to watch her in Paris. Christina Williams new
women's basketball podcast, In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams,
(01:21):
launches today. Every week, she's going to break down the
biggest headlines and women's soups and sit down with some
of the biggest names in the game. You can listen
on the iHeartRadio app and wherever podcasts are streamed. We're
all very pumped to watch the US women's soccer team
open up their Olympic campaign tomorrow, July twenty fifth against
Zambia in Group B play at staud Denise in Nice, France.
(01:43):
You can watch the game at three pm Eastern on
USA Network, Universo and Peacock. Here's what you need to
know about the Zambian team. We're going to start with
the unsettling and ongoing investigation into their coach. Head coach
Bruce Moape will not be allowed to have any private
contact with his players at the games, and yet he's
still been granted a visa to lead the team despite
(02:04):
an ongoing investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct against him.
FIFA is still investigating claims that Wape rubbed his hands
over the chest of a player after a training session
at last year's World Cup. The Guardian also revealed in
May that he was accused of intentionally touching a FIFA
contractor's breast at the same tournament. Before last year's World Cup,
(02:25):
Wape was the subject of an investigation into allegations of
sexual misconduct by a number of players. He has previously
denied the accusations. It feels like every single international tournament
we're having a conversation about a team who is expected
to play despite toxic environment created by their coach, their federation,
or some other combination of people. And Zambia is the
(02:46):
latest example of players who are going to be expected
to compete at the highest level despite all of that.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Going on on and off the pitch.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Sort of hard to believe that a coach would be
allowed to coach a team while still not being allowed
to have private contact with any of them, the players.
But here we are speaking of the players. Let's get
to these incredible Zambian players known as the Copper Queens,
and where else can we start? But Barbara Banda with
fifty three goals in sixty international games and twelve goals
(03:16):
in twelve games in the NWSL this season. The Orlando
Pride striker is one of the best forwards in the world,
and we already know she can go off on a
big stage. In the Tokyo Games, she had two hat tricks.
In fact, Banda is the first and only player of
any gender to score three goals in back to back
games in Olympic history. Forward Rachel Kundananji, who represented Zambia
(03:37):
both in Tokyo and at the twenty twenty three World Cup,
is an NWSL player as well. She suits up for
expansion side BAFC, and midfielder Grace Chanda is set to
join Banda in Orlando following the Olympics. Also, this Olympic
opener will be the first meeting all time between the
US women's national team and Zambia. Bottom line is Zambia
didn't advance out of their group in either the last
(03:58):
Olympics or the World Cup.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
But if Barbara Banda is on.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
The field, absolutely no team is safe, especially since this
US team has struggled to score, putting up just four
goals in four games. At last year's World Cup and
again going scoreless in their final friendly with Costa Rica.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Will the US change course in France? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Old habits die screaming. While I'm optimistic about this killer
trio of Trinity Rodman, Sophia Smith and a very healthy
mouse Swanson, they still got to prove it. The US
scorers better finish where this is going to be a
very short vacance in France. Finally, a Zambia fun fact.
Their national symbol, the African fish eagle, looks a lot
(04:39):
like America's bald eagle, So in true American fashion, I
had to find out whether our eagle was better than
their eagle. And based on the highly respected and definitely
fully vetted website animalmatchup dot com and using the infallible
truthiness of AI to create a simulated battle the bald Eagle,
(05:00):
our bald eagle, bigger and faster, wins quote. In a
thrilling display of strength and skilled the bald eagle emerges
as the victor in the epic battle against the African
fish eagle. With its powerful beacon sharp talents, the baald
eagle has proven itself as the ultimate predator.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Of the Skies, Take that, Zambia.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
When we come back, Abby Wambach and I ruin one
of your favorite books from childhood by analyzing it through
the lens of feminism and climate change.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Come on back.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Abby Wambach is a two time Olympic gold medalist, a
World Cup champion, a six time winner of the US
Soccer Athlete of the Year award, and a member of
the National Soccer Hall of Fame. She is still the
highest all time goal scorer for the US national team,
and her one hundred and eighty four international goals are
second all time for both female and male players. She's
part of the ownership group for Angel City FC of
(05:54):
the National Women's Soccer League, one of three co hosts
of the wildly successful podcast We Can Do Hard Things.
She's responsible for one of my all time favorite sporting
moments just her head was her header in one hundred
and twenty second minute of the twenty eleven World Cup
against Brazil. And according to the Internet, Abby and I
share the same favorite book. But do you cry every
(06:15):
single time you read it, Abby, or.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Is that just me?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Okay? What's the book?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
According to the Internet, It's The Giving Tree.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Okay, Sarah, This is a good place to start, because
I have been in therapy for the last like I
don't know, a year or so, and I was just
talking about this with my therapist the other day. I
think that maybe I have to revise this answer of
it being my favorite book. And I think you will
(06:45):
track with me here the idea, the whole idea of
just giving, of just giving and expecting nothing in return,
and giving and expecting nothing in return. For me, as
a people pleaser, somebody who really likes to avoid conflict,
this book fit fit my parts really well, fair and
(07:09):
it has made it very difficult for me in a
lot of ways. And we don't need to keep talking
about this, but I have to say that I think
that maybe I'm appalled with this book. I get the intention,
but it feels very not feminist. It feels very like
wife in the kitchen just to accept the little crumbs
(07:33):
that she gets in her family systems.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So I don't know, not only not favorite, but fully
anti the giving tree at this point. So I guess
my thing is, first of all, I've never had trouble
being too giving. I'm a very generous person, but I've
always had very set boundaries on how much I'm willing
to give versus what I should be demanding. But also
the book to me was more of a warning than
it was happy. That's why I ball at the end,
(08:00):
because I don't think you're supposed to be like, oh,
the tree, that's a great example.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It was like that kid, yes, and this is the world.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
The world keeps taking and taking and taking, and the
tree is trying to show us what life looks like
if you're generous, but when you don't get it in return,
And that, to me is also about nature, the tree
of nature.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And the boy was man. And that's why I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Like, why you went to Ivy League school and I
did not?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
You got it well? Either way.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
I still cry every time I think about it, and
it makes me angry, and yet it's still my favorite,
which is maybe something I should go to therapy for.
We're going to get back to therapy and your podcasts
and how it is my personal therapy. But I want
to talk Olympics just to start, because we are one
day away. Tomorrow, the US women open their competition against Zambia.
It's their first big tournament under their new head coach,
Emma Hayes. A legend in England, a cheeky babe who
(08:51):
comes in and we are expecting her to turn this
team into the magic that we used to see on
the regular. What do you think the biggest difference we're
going to see with Emma at the Helm versus the
four years under save lad Gwandanowski.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Good question, difficult answer. First of all, I had the
pleasure of working with Emma a long long time ago,
back with the Washington Freedom, back in like the WUSA days,
And she's wonderful. She's smart, she's funny, she's tough. She
has the kind of personality I think to get the
(09:23):
most out of the players. And you know, it's tough
because these Olympics, it's eighteen players. To go from a
World Cup roster down to eighteen, that's five or you know,
depending on alternates, that's a lot of bodies that you've
got to decide who your team is going to be,
(09:43):
and in many ways, for her, who she's setting up
to begin her tenure at US Soccer. So I when
I was a player, we went through rebuilding years, We
had difficult times that we had to kind of start
fresh and and and you know, I think that Emma
(10:05):
is going to have a challenge ahead of her because
the rest of the world is getting so much more competitive,
and also in some ways, clearly when we saw the
last World Cup, they're getting better, you know, they're getting
They're they're not just catching up anymore. They're they're in
many ways better than Yeah, they're better. And I feel
(10:28):
I feel excited and also a little nervous, just because
it's a new coach. How are the players going to
respond to her? How is she going to turn the
tide so that we can become what we all kind
of hope, love and expect about watching our team play.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
The The.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Talent is there, the players are good enough. It's the
thing about some of the coaches that have been so profound,
so profoundly helpful at managing how to bring all of
that extraordinary talent together. And it's not an easy thing.
It's not you just got to do this one thing
(11:10):
right and you'll make it work. It's all of these little,
teeny minuscule details that have to kind of these puzzle
pieces have to actually link up and come together right
before world events for those world events to actually come
and go our way. We're going to compete. I'm excited.
(11:33):
I love watching World Championships. I love the Olympics, especially
because it's you know, there's all the other players, all
the other athletes, all the other sports they're competing, and
so we just get this little like fraction of the
Olympic Games. But it's I'm excited to see what she
can do. I'm a little bit nervous around the age
(11:54):
of this team. It's very young, and like, on the
same note, it's like, okay, like, how if I were her,
what would I do? Would I want to start fresh?
Would want to would I want to build my own
group of players so that we could be good for
the next and dominant for the next ten years. I
don't know. Good luck, Emma, good luck to the girls.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, good luck, Emma. You know you mentioned this.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
We talk a lot about other teams catching up or
even passing by the US, and particularly with other countries
having distinct style differences, skill focus, different tactics in sort
of lay person's terms. When we're watching this Olympics, will
we be able to see how the US uses a
different tactics or approach than other countries that are having
success or do you expect us to notice even from
(12:40):
what we watch at the World Cup to this new
Emma Hayes led team.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Oh they're doing something real different.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Now, great question. I'm excited to learn that myself. I
haven't had too much time to watch her, her be there,
you know, her be at the helm leading this team.
Only a couple of games they've done, and well, I've
heard good things. But at the end of the day,
(13:04):
when you get into a World Championship, the stakes are
so much higher and the players have to bring a
kind of outsized confidence to themselves and to each other.
And a lot of times, in my experience leadership, the
older players who have been there before often gave the
(13:26):
younger players in some ways kind of the sense of confidence.
I mean, the amount of huddles that I would be
in and I'd be like, look, if you're worried, if
you're freaking out, I get it. I know what it's
like to be here. Just look at me, Just look
at me in the way that I'm playing. And I
don't know if we have that kind of leadership in
terms of veteran age wise. You know, I know, Lindsay
(13:47):
Hernn is going to be doing her best wearing the
captain's band and a listen there, my gosh, she's done
so well for us over the last many years, and
I hope that they can bring that kind of confidence
in themselves, because when you're out there and you're nervous
and you don't know necessarily how to deal with all
(14:09):
this pressure, what are you going to do?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Right?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
You got to look to your left and look to
your right and get that confidence from your teammates. And
I just hope that they can bring that sense of
confidence with them throughout this first group stage.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, that leadership guidance thing from the Vets. We've talked
about it a lot, in part because of Alex Morgan
not making the cut, and it's made us sort of
look around to the other veterans on that team that
might step up. Do you remember any specific language guidance
leadership from a VET that stuck with you when you
were new to the national team, any one particular person
(14:42):
or maybe quote that you held onto.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Good question. Honestly, I got onto the team right after
the ninety nine World Cup, and these players became worldwide
like phenoms, you know, Mia Hamm and Julie Foudy and
Christine Lilly, like these women who really like built women's
soccer in this country, and so I didn't It wasn't
(15:10):
necessarily what they said, it was how they played. It
was like how they treated each other. And I just
I remember being super young, just promising myself to be
a sponge, just to learn everything that I possibly could
and do whatever they wanted me to do. Early on
as a young player, you know, I was one of
(15:31):
the best on most of the teams that I played on,
and then here I find myself on the best team
in the world, becoming the worst player on the team.
And so I just remember finding myself feeling like it
was the game was too fast and I couldn't catch
up to the play or their thought process or anything.
And so just promising myself not to check out, to
(15:54):
stay in it, to be challenged, to confront my own
my own sense of self right, and to be like
am I good enough? And so there were days, I
swear to God, there were days that I came off
the field and I went back into my hotel room
and I was like, I am actually the worst player here.
(16:16):
And the question that I had to keep asking myself was, Okay,
you just need to make small games. You just need
to make a small bit of difference day after day
after day, and then slowly lo and behold, a little
sense of confidence will spark. I'll score a goal, I'll
make an assist. A player after a game will come
(16:38):
up to me and be like, yo, that was really great.
But one thing I promised myself to do was I
wasn't going to ever let somebody else work harder than me.
That was the only thing I could control. My confidence
was going to go up and down, my statistics would
go up, up and down, but my ability to put
(16:59):
in the work and the effort, and that was, honestly
something I struggled with in college. Was just like work
ethic and hard work and consistency, and.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
That's shocking to me. That's shocking.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
But then I also, if I remember correctly, in youth soccer,
you had like thirty goals in a game once. So
I feel like maybe it came a little too easy
to you at the beginning. I mean, you really did
peak at like eight.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Unfortunately I just came five five.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
It came a little too easy too, And then eventually
you needed to get enough of a challenge to decide, Oh,
I guess I have to work at this.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Would would that we all had that problem.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
It's just too easy, you know, chemistry with coach, chemistry
with team. I feel like sometimes my favorite teams I've
watched from the beginning of the season and not known
that they were going to go on to win it all,
but seen something special. They felt super tight, they felt
super connected in a way that you know, you're playing
the backwards game of like, oh, you could see this coming.
(17:54):
But I wonder how important you think that is and
can enough talent overcome either a lack of chemistry with
team or coach. I mean, we certainly saw in the
World Cup with Spain that those women managed to blow
past every obstacle that the Spanish Soccer Federation put in
front of them, including their coach, and win the whole
damn thing. That's not ideal, that's not what we want
(18:15):
players to go through. But is that some sort of
proof that, like it doesn't you don't need all that
chemistry with coach, or maybe that you just need it
with team.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah, good question. I think I think as it relates
to I've played on teams before that we all kind
of banded together in spite of a coach that we've
won World championships. I also have played under coaches that
we loved and won. I know it's a lot easier,
(18:45):
a lot more fun when you like and you respect
that coach, right, And I also know that it's just
a lot more difficult, but it's still possible, right, So yes,
the coach matters because they're the ones that are deciding
who's on the field, when they're on the field, what tactic,
all of that. But at the end of the day,
it's eleven players out there. Right. We had a coach
(19:07):
at one point who tried to change the formation at
the end of the game of a gold medal medal match,
and our captain was like no, She was like no,
that like, we are gonna We're going to stay the course.
We're going to do what we do, and we ended
up winning that gold medal that year. And I think
that I think that there is always a moment that
(19:29):
all the World Championships, I was able to be a
part of that. I could draw back a couple of
months prior to the World Championship starting, and I could
I could remember like a single practice where everything just
like kind of clicked it, like it was like the
perfect moment, like the perfect gelling, the perfect environment. Everybody
(19:53):
was like flying, playing hard at their peak. You could
tell everybody was as committed as the other. And I
hope that I hope that for our team that this
summer in Paris, I hope that they can look around
and get the sense that this is a team that
(20:15):
could win, because in the end, there's so many factors, right, Like,
you can have the right team, you can even have
the right coach, but then you could have a referee
that makes a mistake, or you could have a moment
where another team steps up and just has the game
of their lives, right Like, there's it.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Could be a deflection, Yeah, something as simple as a deflection.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Exactly, And so you just never know. And so there
is this element of like luck or what I call
the soccer gods. They just kind of need to be
on your side in those knockout round games in order
for you to be standing on that top podium come
the end of the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, a lot of people use meditation, visualization, self talk,
their favorite music, get those nerves handled right before big
tournaments like this. Did you have a trick and or
did one of your teammates have something extremely quirky that
you were like, I don't know what's going on over there,
but if it works, like go for it.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Yeah, you know, it's funny. I think about this a
lot now because I am kind of baffled at my
own self. I'm on a self love journey and I
cannot believe the person that I am now in this
body today, almost ten years since I played. I cannot
(21:33):
believe that I did the things that I did. And
so I think a lot about like kind of the
psychology and the and for lack of a better word,
like kind of the spirituality that goes into and the
energy that goes into playing on a team full of
women that go out into the field and play a
(21:54):
game and try to try to triumph over their opponents.
And yes, I did have some weird things that I
did prior to the game. But what I want to
talk about, which I think the average person listening ps,
I'm an average person now, So I put myself backus
(22:16):
average us, average folks listening.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
We're not buying it, but carry on.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
We have this capacity within us that I think prevents
us from achieving some of the things we want in
our lives. And it's this ability to plant a flag
in the ground, and the flag says I care the most,
and I think our vulnerability, our fear of vulnerability, prevents
(22:45):
us from doing it, our fear of embarrassment, just like
our fear in general. I wanted my teammates to always
know that I cared, like the most what this outcome was. Right.
If we won, I was going to celebrate the most.
If we lost, I was going to take the most
(23:07):
responsibility for that loss. I knew that my team's uh
success relied a lot on whether I scored goals for us.
Now that doesn't mean that I was the only one
that that created wins and losses for our team. There
was a lot of elements that went into it. But
I do know that this energy and this this fearlessness
(23:30):
to looking at each other being like we care about
this a lot like our own, like almost as if
our life depends on it. And honestly though that this
is not a healthy way. I actually believed in my
cells that my life depended on winning games. In some ways,
it did because you know, my money, endorsements and all
(23:54):
that stuff mattered so that I could like have the
things in my life that I had, but also like
on an energetic level. Like I think that that is
one of the things that draws people into our women's
national team so much, is because we don't fear planting
that flag and saying I care the most, I give
(24:14):
the most hits about this.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, You've talked about this on your podcast, even talking
about watching your kids play and Glennon not being your wife,
Glennon Doyle not being an athlete necessarily herself watching and
being amazed and impressed that people are earnestly giving their
best and putting it all out there and being vulnerable
in wanting so badly to win. And I think as
athletes we take that so for granted. And you know,
(24:38):
looking back as an athlete myself, same as you, it's like,
I sometimes I am amazed that I just was willing
to go out there and be like, I'm trying my
very hardest at something and if I fail, You're going
to know that I tried really hard and I still
couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
And I think that's a lot for some people.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
And I think, honestly, this is why when we have
watched some of the greatest athletes in the world of
all time, when we watch them play there's something about
them that draws us in. And yes, of course it's
because we assume that they're going to score that point,
score that goal, you know, throw the ball, well whatever,
(25:13):
But it also is in the way that they respond
to the moment. So the big moment against Brazil where
I score with my head, right, I deeply believe that
this moment only happens because there is this this first
of all, my fearlessness, heinos fearlessness in the moment of
(25:37):
going I don't care what happens. I care the most though,
that we're going to try, right. And so yeah, it's
like when you're a viewer of this and you're watching this,
you're like, yes, so much is on the line. But
watching people go, I'm going to give me the ball.
I can do it the last moment, the last second
(26:00):
play Michael Jordan, whoever? Yeah, and then and then and
then all of the other people in the world watching
this moment energetically willing this moment to happen. Like to me,
I just I find it's so fascinating. There's going to
I'm sure there's gonna be more science proving me correct
around that the energy of these moments matter. So watch
(26:24):
the team play, like send them good vibes, like positive
thinking this thing, that this moment could be the one
moment that changes the game.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So cool chills just thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Every time I think about that goal and everything that
had to happen right in an exact moment. You know,
we're hearing a lot about gender parody at this Olympics,
and we of course love the increased numbers of women
competitors in the US has more women than men this
year as well, But there's only twelve women's soccer teams
and there's sixteen men's that ain't parody. Do you want
to see the women's tournament get up to sixteen too?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I would love. I would love a bigger tournament for
a lot of reasons. I think that logistics play a
difficult role in this, and the length from opening ceremonies
to closing ceremonies, I think is much shorter than like
a World Cup length of a tournament. HI producer Alex
(27:20):
asi here noted, Olympic expert hate to nitpick, but it's
actually opening ceremony singular. Same goes for the closing ceremony,
So people don't really know this very often or even
are conscious of this. But the women's soccer teams, and
I think all the soccer games start before the opening Olympics,
(27:43):
before the ceremonies, so they can fit in the group
stage and then the knockout around stage games because otherwise
the games are just too close together and it's really different.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Well, already two days is crazy for a turnover for
a soccer athlete.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, but the fact that the men have a bigger
pool of teams, to me, it's just you know, FIFA
and the IOFC, this is like kind of they're just
very slow to jump on board with the way of
at least American world right. Yeah, I would love to
(28:20):
see them.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
I think it's coming though.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I think we're seeing enough other countries that are improving
their federations that we're going to almost have to expand
that field. In your final World Cup, you played under
head coach Jill Ellis. She's now the president of the
San Diego Wave in the NWSL. She's been the subject
of recent criticism from former employees. Your former national team
teammate Sidney LaRue told the podcast a few years ago, quote,
(28:44):
we won in spite of her. She's not good for
people's mental health, that's for sure. The best thing was
for her to go unquote. There's still a lot of
reporting to be done about what happened with the wave
in general. But I wonder, you know why you think
women's soccer is still struggling with so many instances of
complaints about toxic workplaces. We saw a massive investigation in
(29:06):
the NWSL a couple of years ago that forced a
lot of coaches and owners out. And is there something
about the subjectivity of soccer where you can really convince
people that person isn't playing because we're in a different
format or you know, we're doing a different strategy and
that's why, and that subjectivity allows for mind games and
the bullshit that we see. Or why is soccer struggling
(29:29):
with this not just in Dan Diebussel, but the global level?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
That question I have been asking also, Sarah. I don't
have an answer for this. I think probably what's happened
is the popularity of women's soccer grew faster than the
(29:53):
small town, small business owner mentality of some of the clubs,
the owners, the the understanding of you know, old school
versus modern ways of thinking, and there's a there's been
(30:14):
a transition period, right that has I think kind of
been difficult for some of the older coachings, you know,
the players and that became coaches. We were all raised
playing under coaches in certain ways, with certain cultures, with
certain mindsets. Uh. And now this younger generation has come
(30:37):
in and there's just like a different vibe, rightfully. So
of course, like every new generation that comes in, they
think differently because they've experienced the world differently. And I
don't think that the two have caught up. I don't
think that they're they're like seeing eye to eye. I
don't know that answer. I really don't. And and and
(31:00):
it makes me sad in so many ways because I
don't think that one side is all right and the
other side is all wrong. I really don't. I do
think that there are, like, you know, obvious bad actors
that need to be on the outside of these teams,
that need to not be working in women's sports ever. Again,
(31:22):
I think that I think that, you know, I don't.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
I don't know much about the Jill Ellis situation, and
I can't really speak to it, but I do know
my experience with Jill, and it has always been positive.
She's always had the like the team's best interest at heart. Uh.
And I understand that, like when players don't get minutes
(31:49):
and don't and aren't given what they think that they deserve.
I also understand that that it's hard to be objective
in those moments. It really is. It's hard to know. Now,
I'm not talking about sexual assault here. I'm not talking
about some of the coaching the coaches that have have
(32:10):
really violated the players and their and their rights. But
being in a coaching position is really difficult because you
have to make hard decisions that really affect players' lives.
But I just think that it's like a young, a
young industry that is also being seen by a lot
more people now popularity wise, and the expectation of of
(32:35):
you know, NFL level professionalism is there, but it's just
not we haven't had that many years in existence to
have that level of professionalism or even like a way
of operating. I mean, listen, it's like a brand new business,
like we've got to figure out more, you know. And
(32:57):
I bet if we were to go back at at
the beginning of all these huge, you know, major league
sports that we now watch and love, I bet that
they had a ton of issues you know that we
don't remember.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, and a lot of them still do. Exactly a
lot of them still do. And I do think you know,
it's it's an unfair question in part because it's like
basically asking why are there issues anytime women are involved
in anything in the world.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Exactly, It's like, well, let's.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Start with, like, you know, the patriarchy and all the
other things that trickle down into the literally everything we do.
I love your podcast so much. It has literally changed
my life. And I know you've heard that from so
many people, millions of people. I listen to every episode.
I take so much away from it, including the episodes
that I start and I think this isn't going to
(33:44):
be for me, and by the end, I go, gosh,
I learned so much and it makes me see people
who have this or do that or feel this way differently.
Just has made me a better human being. I wonder
what you're digging into right now. Are you reading a book,
are you circling a topic, are you like honed on
something that you're thinking you want to bring to the pot.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Well, yeah, the my update on my brother passing away
is coming out pretty soon, So I am I am
pretty deep in the grief game right now, and it is.
It has been hard and terrifying and beautiful and difficult
(34:25):
and probably one of the most illuminating things that's ever
happened in my life as a person on this planet.
And so yeah, I'm definitely in the I'm kind of
in this weird like mortality place where I'm accepting that
I'm going to die because I think that I avoided it,
(34:47):
like like the plague my whole life.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Like a lot of us.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Yeah, And I am also coming to terms with like
I'm trying like the thing that I'm trying on right now,
like as a as a way of thinking or like
a philosophy is like equal parts. Everything matters, all the
things matter, and then also nothing matters. Yeah, Like I
(35:18):
can't wrap my mind around how everything is everything and
nothing is also and everything is also nothing? Yeah, Like
how it can it can end just like that? And
then how can I how can I rationalize or or
(35:39):
choose to participate in my life in a way that
brings me meaning? And then I go down the rabbit
hole like well then what like what is meaning making?
And why am I actually doing it? Is it just
to pass the time? Is it to make myself feel
good while I pass the time while I'm here, And
so I'm just like in this weird like existential and
(36:03):
I don't want to say mid life crisis because I
think we get that. I think that it's wrong to stay.
I think it's like mid life questioning where I'm like, yeah,
I just like awakening crisis. It makes me feel like
I'm pulling my hair out and like going to buy
like a red Porsche or something like. No, I'm just
like I'm like sitting with like real questions and I'm
(36:25):
really trying to understand. I don't know ram Das. He
has this awesome documentary called Becoming Nobody, and essentially this
really rings true to me. Essentially, like the idea of
human's life is like, we spend so much of our time,
especially the first half of our life, becoming somebody. And
(36:48):
this documentary is like and it's Buddhist and meditative and
trying to be hitting, you know, trying to find nirvana
and enlightenment. And I think the the idea of becoming
nobody is something that I think that that might be
the journey that I'm going to be going on for
the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
This is going to help a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Talking about grief and talking about this point in your
life is going to help a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I know.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I was an a void for a long time and
then had my friend and her mother who had a
terminal illness on my podcast, and listening to her perspective
on knowing what was coming and her daughter's perspective on
knowing she was going to lose her mom and having
to really face that conversation with them was actually incredibly freeing.
And so I look forward to hearing that and for
all your listeners to get to hear it. I'm also
(37:37):
really looking forward to you and glennon breaking down the soccer.
I'm some of my favorite times are just watching you
guys film watching the soccer and glennon explaining things like
offsides and bringing all these people in with your orange
slice mentality of you know, whatever you know or don't
know about it, let's all watch it together.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
So that's going to be super fun. Abby, You're the best.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Thanks as always for coming on having a soccer insight,
life insight, and everybody listened to we can do hard things.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
It's the best, awesome. Thank you so much. Sarah.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
After the break, we'll tell you what to put in
your ear holes stick around.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Oh hi again.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
As always, we do love that you're listening, but we
want you to get in the game every day as well.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So here's our good Game play of the day.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
And it's another easy one just subscribe to in case
you missed it. With Christina Williams, it launches today. She's
going to be your go to source for women's hoops,
offering up breaking news, highlights, analysis and expert insights. Christina
is an excellent journalist and a friend and we couldn't
be more excited for her here at Good Game. So
go listen and go get them Christina and another great
(38:47):
listen the recap show Soccer Greats and Power couple Tobin
Heath and Kristen Press talk about all things soccer, and
in the latest episode, they get into how soccer match
is happening before the opening ceremony and in cities outside
of the main host city kind of make soccer players
feel like outsiders at the Olympics. In fact, in a
previous episode, Kristen talked about how she was in the
Rio Olympics and has never been to Rio.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Great Conversations on that podcast. Check out the recap show.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
If you like what you hear, and guess what, even
if you don't, please subscribe and follow the podcast seriously,
like right now, just like right now, hit.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
That button for us and maybe leave a review.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
We might read it on the show, just like this
one from panteen Minus, which I guess is like panteen plus.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I just got that. I just I just got that.
Panteen Minus. Props to you.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Panting minus wrote yay and finally a podcast solely about
women's sports.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yes, and it's brilliantly written, hosted, and produced.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Beyond thrill to have Sarah Spain back in the daily
podcast rotation.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Thank you panteen Minus. See rating and reviewing is so easy?
How about another? Fireflies rating five out of five stars.
Review they don't buy, they don't.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Carry diseases, Nature's Nightlight, no notes, don't forget. You can
always hit us up on our email good game at
wondermedianetwork dot com or on social at Sarah Spain on
Twitter once I recover my account from the Russian hackers,
or you can even leave us a voicemail message eight
seven two two four fifty seventy Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
See you tomorrow. Good Game, Jordan Chiles, Good.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Game, Bald Eagle, you whoever hacked my Twitter account? Good
Game with Sarah Spain is an iheartwomen's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzi
and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
And Emily Rudder.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Our editors are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder, Bretney Martinez and
Grace Lynch. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your
Host Sarah Spain
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