October 24, 2023 • 45 mins
Yep, it’s getting to be that time of year. For some people, it’s a time of excitement, for other people, fall transitioning into winter can bring up a sense of dread. Both feelings are valid. Listen in as my friend, Kaitlin Curtice and I talk about her new children’s book Winter’s Gifts, and how she shifted her approach to commemorating the winter season. Kaitlin and I also discuss tips on how to opt-out of the holidays when you need to.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Hey, y'all, welcome back to Her with Amina Brown. I'm
here in the living room with like one of my
favorite people, like one of my favoritest people. Please welcome poet, storyteller,
public speaker and author of new children's book Winners' Gifts,
Caitlin Curtis.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you, we are here. Everyone's applotting at home.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yes, you know what, Caitlyn, I realized today that I
think you and Colundra are my most often featured guests
on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I think you and Calundra.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
If I could give out awards for who appeared here,
the more it's you and Calundra. Because Calendra has been
coming on every year the past three years to talk
like best of TV stuff with me each year, and
I somehow find a way to really convince you to
come here and talk to me.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Because we have done it. It's our third third time.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, so I think I've talked to you once a year.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
It is our third, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah? Yeah, so thanks Caitlyn, thank you. It's really y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I was just telling Caitlin before we started recording, it's
really partly my excuse, just because we love each other.
So it's really partly my excuse to be like, oh,
let me just catch up with Caitlyn real quick on
a recording recording for all these people.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
You know, we're here for it. We're here for it. Caitlyn.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm so excited about your new book. This is your
first children's book, am I right?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah it is. I'm really excited and also I
don't know what to feel, so me.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Could you talk us through Where did the idea begin
for Winter's Gifts?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, we lived in Vermont at the time, and it
was awesome. I've wanted to write a children this book
for a long time, but I thought, what if I
could write four books that's a series and like could
be a box set one day, because I would want that,
like I would buy that as a parent. What if
I could create these four books that could be in
(02:14):
a box set that someone could buy and have to
show in their house throughout the seasons, because I changed
my house throughout the season, and I do all of that,
and I get out books for each like in each
of our tubs. It's like the season books come out.
And so so this first book came like it came quickly.
I needed to write it, I think, and a lot
(02:35):
of it is like, you know, relating to me as
a kid. A lot of it's watching my own kids.
And then it was like we lived in Vermont and
it was winter, so it was like, you know when
you think of snowy winter, it was like the perfect
setting for me to just sit on my couch, buy
my wood stove in this tiny rental house we were
living in Vermont. We lived there for one year, and
(02:56):
it was like this book was written in that season.
It was perfect, you know, and write about our husky Sam,
who passed away when we lived in Vermont, but he's
in the book, so he's like memorialized in this series,
which I really love. And yeah, I wanted to write
something that could sort of be universal but could also
(03:17):
speak to our podauatumy identity, and it just kind of
came came together really well in the celebration of all
the seasons. So we start with winter and it's coming
out and it'll be out for this you know, cozy
season that's coming and I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Oh I love it, and I'm really excited to dive
into this more with you y'all. One of my favorite
things about Kaitlin is the ways that she and I
can talk about spirituality, and that when we talk about
spirituality it has a lot of freedom and boundlessness. I've
definitely called Kaitlin like, Okay, so let's talk about this
dream I had, Like we have really interesting conversations around that.
(03:56):
And I think the idea of winter as a season
is very spiritual and not related necessarily to any particular religion,
but it's a very spiritual time. It's a time where
we are sort of contemplating the end of the year,
and we may be reflecting on the year that's passed,
we may be trying to prepare for the year to come.
It's just all of this sort of ruminating of the
(04:19):
soul during that time. And for some of us in
that season, you know, you being in Vermont during that time,
it's like you have some time whe It's like you
just have to be indoors a lot more too, because.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Of the weather, the snow, the cold, all those things.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Right, we're inside a lot, yeah, and Vermont it is cold, yeah,
but it was beautiful. And I mean winter's Winter's hard.
It's a hard season for a lot of people. It's
hard for mental health, emotional health. I mean, we're not
getting out in the sunlight as much like winter is hard,
and so I wanted to you know, we acknowledge that,
(04:53):
but also speak to but what are the gifts that
it also gives us? And like you said, it's like this,
it is this hibernation season, it's this inward season. It's
for us, it's the storytelling time. You know, it's the
time of the elders, Like when we are learning from
from those who came before us and those who are
older and wiser than us, and they're telling us the
(05:14):
stories that we need to hear. It's almost like you're
like storing up all those stories for the coming year,
for the coming seasons. And I think that's a really
beautiful thing. So I wanted to kind of figure out
a way to honor that in this book.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, can you talk about as we are now, sort
of at the time of this recording, sort of digging
into fall, which you start sort of feeling that transition
that fall is, you know, going to fold itself into winter.
And for some people there starts to be like a dread.
You know about that for very good reasons and very
(05:50):
important reasons, and for some people there starts to be
this like relief, this sense of like, Okay, We're going
to come to a time where I know I'm not
going to work as much. I know I'm going to
have or time with my friends or my family, my people.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
That I love.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
What are your thoughts about how we can even begin
the process to become more intentional about embracing winter.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Mm hmmm. I think it's important to like plan ahead
as much as we hate to hear that there is
this beauty in I mean, we plan ahead for the
celebrations of our life. You'd plan ahead for a birthday party,
You'd plan ahead for these things, so you know, mark
your calendar and plan ahead for winter solstice, like decide
to cook your favorite food that night and sit with
(06:34):
a few people you love and light some candles or
light a fire and just like intentionally set that side
that time aside and talk about gratitude and talk about grief,
and talk about who you are and what you're learning
about yourself in the season you find yourself in even
in your own life that life season, and what are
you hoping to learn in winter? Like, I think without
(06:56):
becoming like you know, super linear or like checking boxes
it's also really helpful to plan ahead and to be
prepared for this moment, for this time that we're going
to set this aside because it's gonna get crazy and busy.
You know, December comes and it's it's wild how busy
it things get. So set it aside. You know. Last year,
(07:18):
I got too busy and I couldn't really plan our
families solstice, and I was really sad about that. And
I was, Oh, I was doing my audiobook for Living Resistance,
my last book, so I was like taking the train
into Philly every day and doing these recordings, and I
just I didn't have the space or the energy. And
one day I showed up at home and my partner
(07:41):
Travis had like decked the whole table. It was full
of food, I mean, and he's an incredible cook, and
he just did it. He did it all for us,
and it was like, oh my gosh, the sweetest thing
because he knew how much of it to me. He
knows that it's just a part of our family and
we want to still honor that, and so he totally
me and I was really grateful, you know, like to
(08:03):
have someone else be like this is something we want
to honor, let's do it. We're still going to do it,
and so just make the space and try to plan.
And I think that that's a beautiful gift to give yourself, Yes,
to be ready.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You know, yeah, I love that. I was talking recently
with doctor Shanikua Walker Barnes on this podcast and we
were talking about self care and where celebration also plays
a role in that, where joy plays a role in
our self care, and that was one of the things
she said. She said, sometimes we need to plan ahead
our celebrations or even our commemorations. There is sometimes a
(08:38):
thing that we want to hold a certain space for.
It may be something celebratory, it maybe something that we
need to just mark time about or take time to
honor in a way, and that that does take a
bit of planning and community. That in that moment that
you were like this year, I can't be the person
who plans, I can't be the person who puts this
thing together, and that your partner was like, it can
(09:00):
be me this year.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
You know, I think that's really really dope.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, it was really sweet, and that's so true where
it's I tell people things like that all the time,
Like this in the same vein like plan ahead for
your care if you need to schedule it. If you're
that type of person, then treat it like it's part
of your job, like schedule it in the things that
you need. And it's hard because, especially being an author,
you work on these books for so long and then
(09:25):
you finally get to the end and it's like celebration
but also total exhaustion and a leaf and all this.
Then then the stress just builds somehow, even more than
you thought I would. And a lot of times I
neglect the celebration part of just like take a deep
breath it finally the book is out, the thing has happened,
(09:45):
like celebrate it. And that is that's really hard for me, actually,
So I'm going to remind myself of that as this
children's book comes out and as winter approaches, like drink
a little bit of extra hot cocoa and sit by
the fire a little longer and take your tie with it.
And I think that that's that's good advice. I'm gonna
take it.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Right, The therapy session is great, you.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Know, that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But Caitlin, you know you and I have talked to
about just how interesting it is being an author that
it's it's a really wonderful, privileged opportunity to you know,
be able to take the words that you have and
put them in this book.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
But it is hard.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
It is hard, and I have gotten to the end
of the process and not felt as not felt like
as much of a winner.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
As I thought I was gonna feel like. I thought
it was gonna be like like that real like Rocky
blah blah blah blah, you know like that, and ins said,
I was just like with the covers up, Yeah, totally crying,
you know.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So I do think it's important after all of that,
to not just honor that, you know, writing a book
is air quotes and achievement. It's to honor all that
you had to put in to it, all that it's
out of you to do. And unfortunately, you know, in
the business part of us being authors, I feel like
(11:07):
the celebration of us can get lost in the sauce.
It's like, the book comes out, You've got all the
interviews if you decide to do those, You've got all
this promotional stuff. You've got to post stuff on social media,
You've got to do all those things. There's there's no
one there.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
You had your editor to walk through these parts with you.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
You had your line editor or your copy editor, you
had all these people, but you don't have a person
outside of your people that love you in your life
to actually come alongside you and be like, hey, let's
go to dinner or let's bake our favorite thing, let's
do something to celebrate you that like you did this,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah, yeah, which is why, like I tell people all
the time that being an author is not it's not
a solo it's a solo practice, right. Our work can
be very isolated and solo, but like we're part of
this community of writers, but also whoever those people are
that are in our life, like we it is not
(12:00):
we cannot do it alone. It is always connected to
community and how we are able to especially if we're
from marginalized communities or oppressed voices trying to share our
words with the world, Like we need the people who
hold us up and shout for us, because sometimes it
is like you just want to be done and almost
(12:21):
like forget it happened for a second, and you don't
want to do that, you know, like celebrate the thing,
the beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about the holidays here
because as we are leading, I think the interesting thing
about winter is as a literal season, it has a
lot of beauty in it. It has a lot of
things that it can teach us. I also think, particularly
for those of us who are living in America right now,
(12:50):
there is sometimes the feeling of like, oh shit, here
I go with all the holiday functions and some nah,
you know, like it gets to be that sort of
feeling of like, now it's gonna be all this stuff.
You know, my friends that have kids, they're like, I
gotta do this stuff at the school, and now you
got a holiday concert.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I got it, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And then you have like your extended family stuff. You're like, oh,
well we're gonna go over so and so's house and yikes,
the way the conversation was last.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Year and whatever that stuff is.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So I feel like that also participates in bringing us
the feelings of dread that some of us have as
it relates to holidays and holiday gatherings. I wanted to
get some of your perspective about this because I wanted
to share with you that I feel like the beginning
part of the pandemic, where we were all kind of
(13:40):
like separated away from each other. There were a lot
of hard things about that. In some ways, there were
also some learnings for me of like, oh, look at
this holiday time that we got to have. That wasn't
the hustle and bustle, that wasn't the big, the big party,
the big gathering to go to. Like you sort of
got to kind of focus in a little bit more
(14:00):
with intentionality because we were having to, for the sake
of our health, opt out of some things, right, to
keep our kids safe, keep our loved ones safe, keep
our elders safe. Right, that's what we were having to do.
So then when the period of time came, it was like, oh,
it's safer. Now we can do the stuff we were
doing before. And I was like, oh god, do we.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Have to do that?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Though all the introverts are like, I think grew key,
Like I actually got it home a little longer, Like
I love you guys, but I enjoyed it without y'all.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So not sure, And I also think it can be.
And you and I have talked a lot about having
to build boundaries, right, We've talked about that on this podcast.
As far as boundaries, we've had to build around social
media and our work, you know, boundaries we've had to
build around when we're doing events for our work, you know.
(14:52):
And you and I personally have talked about other things
in life personally where we've had to build boundaries too,
And I feel like one of the boundaries it's real
hard is around the holidays, when what you may need
or what your family may need, maybe different from your friendships,
maybe different from your extended family.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
What do you think caused you to get to a
point where you felt you had permission to opt out?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's a good question. M Hm. This is hard, and
I think so many of us dance around this, and
it is really hard. The other well, and the other
like sort of blaring thing for a lot of us
that is connected to family and friends and all this
stuff is the what happens to those of us who's
like sort of vision of this wonderful America sorts to
(15:40):
like starts to cave in. And so that's like I'm
thinking specifically about like Thanksgiving, Eastern Christmas, sort of these
some of these holidays where you're starting to be like, oh,
that's like really rampant capitalism and consumerism, and it's kind
of gross, isn't it? And oh, like why can't we
sell also like the other holidays around this time, Like
(16:04):
why is it only Christmas and not all the other
holidays that are celebrated, you know, like things like this
and Thanksgiving is is what we know it to be.
It's a it's a total colonial holiday. So how do
we how do we reckon with the history around all
of it? And every year when it comes up, I
am you know, we live so far from our family too.
(16:25):
I mean we live across the country, so there's always
the travel and the there's just so many little strategic things,
and I think part of it is every year is
sort of the sitting down, do the strategic planning. What
can we handle? What are we able to do physically whatever?
With the school breaks, with all the things, like what
(16:47):
can we actually handle that we're able to do? And
then also I think it's important to ask like what
do we need? Because it just isn't It's not helpful
to just like run ourselves strive. So last year for Thanksgiving,
we actually went and stayed in a an off grid
tiny house in upstate New York. It was like the
(17:09):
weirdest best thing ever. I mean, like God, we rock
climb as a family. So what we needed most and
we're going to do something similar again this year. What
we need most is to just get to the land,
into the quiet and not really focus on this particular holiday.
That's not everybody, like everyone has different things. We love food,
(17:30):
we love meals, we love gratitude, we love the act
of Thanksgiving, but we would prefer to just like be
on some land where it's quiet and actually commune with nature,
think about Mother Earth. Do that as a family, you know,
And so that's become really important to us. So last
year we just stayed at this like in this crazy
off grid little house thing and we're like pumping our
(17:55):
water for our coffee in the mornings, Like we had
to work for it. We had to work for that holiday.
But it was it was perfect because it wasn't anything
like the stress of what it usually is. Yeah, and
that and it was great and we and we celebrated
and we did what we needed. And I think that
a lot of us who struggle with boundaries, who struggle
with these conversations, feel guilty and selfish a lot of
(18:18):
the time. And and we go to therapy being like,
what are we going to do this here are you
going to help me figure this out?
Speaker 3 (18:25):
That's how are you going to help me figure this out?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah? It's hard. It's asking each each of ourselves what
we can handle, what do we need? What can we handle?
And how can we lie strategize? And it's really funny
that that's like what I would say is that we
have to strategize. But I guess it's like like the
planning ahead for solstice, it's the same thing, and you
(18:50):
have to just have some time to do the things
you want because there are so many things right like
pulling for our time, so many parties, so many gatherings,
so many meals. Where's the rest, where's the care, where's
the sort of quiet kinship, where's the connection with mother Earth? Like?
Are you doing that throughout that time? Because I think
it becomes so much about money and gifts, And you know,
(19:12):
in my children's book, there's like a line where Donnie,
the main character, is talking to her friends from school
and they're talking about Christmas or the holidays, and she's like,
what about the gifts of winter? And they're like what
about them? Like they're kind of like Mother doesn't give
us gifts? Like what are you talking about. And that's
Donnie's big dilemma in the book is, Oh no, these
(19:33):
like people who are my friends, they don't believe that
mother Earth gives us gifts. They want the tangible presence,
they want the stuff, But what about the gifts that
are just already existing out there? And I think the
best way for us to even practice embodiment to get
back to our own bodies, our own grounding, to learn boundaries.
(19:54):
All of that is actually connected to how we access
our relationship to Mother Earth, right, And I know that
people don't realize that, and I'm realizing it as an adult,
Like I didn't grow up learning that. But when we
start to repair our relationship to the land, it changes
our bodies. It gives us strength to do things and
(20:15):
make decisions that we wouldn't before. And I don't really
know how to describe how it happens, but I know
it happens, and I know that it heals us and
helps us. And I think the holiday seasons are like
a perfect time to put that into practice.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah you know, yeah, Oh that is so helpful, Caitlin.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I'm like, I don't know why. Every time I talk
to you, I'm like tearing up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
But I'm like, man, that's so helpful, because I think
I think a lot of it is based on sort
of an americanized probably you know, you know, insert capitalist
vision of what holidays were supposed to be. And that's
very centered around what we deem to be tradition, which
is not always it's not always tradition in a holistic sense,
(21:09):
as far as it being connected to the people we
come from, or connected to the land, to those stories
that we need to retell. Sometimes it's tradition connected to obligation,
connected to the appearance that it's supposed to have in
the picture or in the video, right, And so when
we're like, oh, my whole family's gathering for such and
(21:31):
such holiday, I will be messing up the tradition by
deciding that that's not a gathering I think I can
participate in. And I do think a part of this
time gives us, hopefully the ability to where we can
with family and friends have some honest conversation around that.
To have some honest conversation, I know I've had to say, Hey,
(21:52):
such and such holidays coming up, and we might need
to not be at that, or if we come to
that we might need to be there for a much
shorter time than you're used to seeing us, you know,
to start sort of having some of those conversations where
you can. Some of us have family members where you
can't have those conversations. They're not going to be helpful.
Do it earlier where you can.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, just get it out there.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Lay in the groundwork there of like that way in
case we leave early or we get there and we
don't have gifts, you know, like you you already know
what's happening here, you know. I think I think if
you are listening to this and you're sort of feeling
that that sense of dread and the uh that comes
with it, I think sometimes that dread is trying to
speak to us, which is to answer the question you said, Caitlin,
(22:34):
what is it you need in this season? What you
may have needed a previous holiday season. You may need
have different needs right now, and to be able to
pay attention to that. You know, I've had some holidays
where it was like I needed to call my friends
and say, I need you to come to my house.
Just bring whatever food you have. We don't care, we'll
have like an ugly pot. Look I don't care. I
(22:56):
just need my house full of people. Yeah, I'm like,
the foods great, but maybe it doesn't look great.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
You know, just bring your ugly food to my home.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I just need to like hear people's voices that I
love and we'll play some card games or whatever we do.
And sometimes that's what you need. And there are other
seasons that come that you're like, I need that tiny house,
you know, I need to be closer to the land,
away from the grid, away from the devices and all
of that. So I think that's a really powerful question
(23:26):
to ask what do you need this year?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, and to be aware of the fact that other
people won't need what you need. So maybe don't invite
that person to go on the long hike with you
because that's probably may not be what they need. And
if you need it and you're aware that they don't, like,
hold some space and maybe meet up for coffee at
some other point, you know, like, don't expect other people
(23:50):
to be changing in the same way as that you're changing.
Or you know, a lot of us are deconstructing, we're
asking hard questions, we're ending up sort of separating in
sith out relationships. Like that's happening for a whole lot
of people. And when we start to question, especially the
norms or the status quo in America and around things
like holidays, it gets really difficult sometimes. But just like
(24:14):
it's hard for us, it's also going to be hard
for others sometimes too. They that doesn't mean they're just
going to come along up with us. Then, So there
is this like there's a reciprocity of care. I think
that we can hold with others. And I know that
that's hard for some of us to hear, especially if
we feel, you know, if they're wrong but we're right,
or if like you know, we're trying to decolonize this holiday,
(24:36):
like what are you doing? But we have to hold
space for that because not everyone is going to be
at that. So again, what do we need? How can
we hold all of that? You know? And grounding ourselves
with what we need, I think is the best way
to do it, you know, and to create space where
we can.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I love that you said reciprocity of care, and that
is hard because sometimes especially especially if what is sending
you to opt out of something, if rage is involved,
you know, if like you've gotten to a point where
you're just like I'm like, I'm fed up with some shit.
So no, I said what I said, we not gonna
be doing that this year at whatever holiday. I said,
(25:13):
We're not doing that. You know, like it's and your
anger is understandable and valid. It's very valid, and to
where you can hold space for the other person across
the table that they may have their own, very valid
emotional reasons why they want to gather in these ways,
(25:35):
and just finding ways to do what you need for
yourself and in some ways to Caitlin, I also feels
as an oldest child and people pleaser. I've had to
accept that sometimes doing what I need will be disappointing
to other people. And that doesn't mean that because it's
disappointing to them, that it's wrong that I'm doing what
I need to do. But there is a way I
(25:55):
can say, this isn't a malicious thing I'm doing to
you in any way. This is me doing what I need.
And I realized you wanted to see us at that gathering.
I realized you hoped that we would participate in this
such and such way, and I realized it will be
disappointing to you that we can't. But your disappointment can't
be the motivator for why I need to move beyond
(26:17):
what is a boundary for me right now.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, there are wise words from a people pleaser.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's hard, Oh it's hard.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
So hard.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I think this time in the last three years really
showed me how much I was used to doing out
of obligation.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yeah, so many things.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That I was just like, oh, I actually now that
I had a chance to opt out of that, actually
realized I had years I wasn't having a good time,
or I had years I didn't enjoy this. I had
years I needed something else and I wasn't able to
listen to my inside soul. I wasn't able to listen
to my own spirit in a way in that season
of life. But I can hear me now, and I
(27:01):
can hear what I need that.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
And I think a lot of that for a lot
of us who grew up in Christian spaces too. That
goes back to that same kind of people pleasing expectation
of like, well, of course you're going to celebrate this holiday,
or of course you're going to come to this service
or this youth event, or you're going to participate in
this way, like, of course you are, because that's what
we do, you know. And so to disrupt any of
(27:23):
those status quos, any of those social norms within our
religious communities, or our families, or you know, whatever it
is our social communities, like that can be really scary.
That can be really scary for a lot of people.
Like it's it's not easy, you know, And so like
going gentle with ourselves during this time is I mean,
(27:44):
I like, I love the holidays. I love the coming coziness.
I love wrapping presents and thinking of people and giving
them these gifts that are meaningful to me and I
picked them for these people for this reason. Like I
love all of that. I love watching Christmas movies. I
love the music. I love it. I think it's incredible.
And also it can at the same time, I feel
(28:06):
the exhaustion and I feel sort of the tension. So
it's and we're allowed to shift. We are allowed to shift,
we are allowed to change, we are allowed to say
for some reason, this holiday feels really hard this year,
and I don't know why. Maybe I can change a
few things about how I'm approaching it because last year
was different, and like we have to hold space for that.
I think if the COVID season incubation taught us anything
(28:31):
it was that, like we have to hold space that
some years things are completely different than other years. Yeah,
so just because we make a decision for one year,
that's that doesn't mean that's always going to be our
pattern either. And it's okay to like to deconstruct, to
ask the questions, to say, I don't know why, but
whatever I did last year isn't working for me this year,
and I have to change something, you know, And that's okay,
(28:54):
It really is okay, but we have to give ourselves
permission for it to be okay.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, this was my first time the last couple of
years opting out of Easter. I was normally a person
who's like I mean, first of all, in having worked
in Christian Spaces a long time, Easter was a work
day for many years. Oh yeah, because I was going
there to speak at this place, to perform for a
good Friday and Easter service and stuff. And then after
(29:18):
I left doing Christian Spaces, then it was like, okay, well,
now I just get to like enjoy that holiday with
my family. We get to like go to church together,
go eat afterwards or whatever and then between twenty twenty
twenty twenty one, somewhere up in there, it was like
Easter was approaching and I was like, not me this year.
Not me. I'm I'm not gonna go to church. I
(29:40):
don't want to go to anyone's like after dinner thing
you do after that, like just just opted out. I
think one year, I just watched Beyonce's Lemonade, which turned
out to be very great. That was my like, you know,
this is still you know, resurrection, redemption in some way.
This Yes, that's what I'm doing. Yes, And a part
(30:02):
of me was shaking, really, you know, inwardly a lot
of trepidation of like, oh my god, what does it
mean that I've just decided to like right out of
this Where where am I? I feel like when you
grow up evangelical, there's this way that you're like, oh god,
I'm on the slippery slope. I'm just gonna keep sliding.
(30:24):
I don't know what I'm sliding into, but it's very
slippery and it's a slope and I'm yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
And what's funny. What's so funny though, is that so
many of our Christian holidays are like super Christian and
then super capitalistic and weird like the Easter Bunny and
like you hope to get a bunch of eggs with
like money in them, but also like make sure it's
about Jesus. So we have these weird you know, and
like Sannah and capitalism and are you a good little kid?
(30:54):
And Jesus' birth and so there's like all of these
things where we've you know, it's just it's what cultures
and societies do. But we sort of like blend these
weird things together and call it a holiday. And then
when you start to ask deep questions, you're like which
part have I given up? Or how is like sort
of am I done with all of it? Like? Or
(31:16):
you know, do we do the Easter bunny part but
not the other part? Or do we like what happens now?
Like because it is so cultural, it's so embedded, right,
and I think we're going through some of that in
our family as well, and and me personally, like what
parts do we keep? Are we allowed to keep bits
and pieces?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Are we not allowed to do that? Do we? You know?
Is the whole thing gone? And we just ride the
slip slipper slip down? You know? And there's a bunch
of people waiting there, so it's not like we're the
only ones doing it. A bunch of people have done it,
Like a lot of people are trying to ask these questions. Yeah,
which I think is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I think it is good to like explore that.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I think I'm also a person who sort of like, like,
if I could use dating as an example, it's like
I can't be like cordial or friends with someone I
just broke up with, So it's like I need that
time of like let's just not see each other, let's
not talk, let's not text.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I don't want to do like I don't want to
do that.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
And then if like enough time passes by or I've
been able to like sort of find my voice again,
figure out my feelings, whatever, then I can see that
person somewhere and just be like, oh, hey, like how
are you. I still don't want to kick it with you,
and I still may not want to go to coffee
or whatever, but I can at least be like I
can have a conversation for a little while and not
be so awkward. And I sort of feel when you're
(32:31):
in a process of deconstructing, whether that's you know, from
the religion you were raised with, or also, like you
were saying, Caitlin, a lot of us are learning about
the roots of some of the holidays that we celebrated
beyond religion, and we're learning the roots of that are
very terrible, and so that causes us to also begin
(32:52):
to question right. So it's like, sometimes I'm a person
and everyone's process on this will be different. I'm a
person who's like I just need like a like a
cult turkey away from you, away from that, and then
I'll start to find myself sort of finding the mosaic
of things that I that I'm like, oh, yeah, I do.
I may not want to go to this kind of service,
(33:14):
but I do like the singing, and I do want
to keep.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Some parts of that.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I may not want to celebrate this in this sort
of way, but I do want to find a way
to honor the ancestors by how we do this type
of thing, you know. So I do think the mosaic
part can be kind of fun and interesting and healing
that process, but I do need the breakup time sometimes
(33:39):
or I'm just like no, no, thank you, No, I
don't know, I don't want no thank you I don't
want to hear away in a manger. I don't want
to do that. I don't want to have I don't
want your Easter bunny. Maybe I do want to get
the candies on discount after Easter is over, but I
don't want Maybe I will get a little pastel Reese's cup.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
But listen, I.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Love that I love these that dating metaphor because my
my metaphor is like a pendulum swing, so I like
go from one into the complete other, and then eventually,
after the grief has subsided a little, I start finding
my way to a balance, to a center, to something.
So your mosaic is like it's my balance and center.
(34:20):
I love that we have these two different metaphors that
are the same the same thing.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yes, it, but I.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Think that's healthy. I think that it's like when you, you know,
when I realized that I there are certain foods that
I can eat and I have these health issues, like
you have to cut it, like cut it all out
and then you slowly start adding it back in to
see how you feel and how it affects you. And
I think it's I think it's really similar with this.
You know, you cut it all out or most of
it or whatever you need and then you see and
(34:49):
not the I don't want to I don't want to
go into like then like appropriation world where we're like, oh,
these religions all nice, let's rat everywhere and we'll just
make something.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
This is fun.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
So that's not what we're saying, Yeah, but we're saying, like,
what can we create that's meaningful. I would love for
any human to create a winter Solstice ritual that means
something to them that honors their ancestors, the honors who
they are, that brings their culture like to the table
and their gifts of gratitude, you know, like how can
we do that honoring others? How can we make it
(35:24):
about kinship and belonging and like this deep beautiful connection
with Mother Earth and with our bodies and with each other.
Like I think that's what a lot of us are
trying to do after getting away from a lot of
these systems and spaces that are so like so much
about disembodiment and oppression and you know, lives like the
(35:46):
stories that we haven't been told, and I think we're
all trying to get back to some sort of how
do we reapproach these things with care and nuance and
the beauty of their complexity, the mosaic, like the balance,
how do we find that? And that's hard? Yeah, and
it calls for care, which I think is why so
many of us are exhausted when this time rolls around.
(36:08):
If we're doing that work, it is exhausting, like, oh,
what do I feel about Thanksgiving? This here? What kind
of food should I make? What would be appropriate? Who's
lands amion? Like all those questions. It's tiring, and like
you have to just go slow and be okay that
it's exhausting because it's beautiful work, but it can be exhausting.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, and it takes time too. It's like like you said,
it's holding space for where you are in this particular year,
and that next year you may need different things, you
may be in a different place. And as time goes on,
if you are beginning this work inside yourself, then you
will continue on with that work. You will grow, you
(36:49):
will evolve, you will have different ways that you will
change and know what your boundaries are, what your wants are.
You will know more of what feels ethical to you,
of what part of your processes have integrity to you,
and how to walk in all of that, All of
that is a time thing. Unfortunately, unfortunately, fortunately it's a
(37:11):
time thing.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
It's like, you can't expect yourself to be like herein
I will read a book as long as all of
Shakespeare's works, in which I will know all of the
things that I'm supposed to know and all of the
practices that I'm supposed to take upon myself, as well
as the practices that I should not do because they
don't belong to me and I should not be involved
in that. Like, you're not going to know that in
three months or a year. You know, you're just going
(37:33):
to be building a life of knowing and evolving. I mean,
that's the only way I can think.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yes, and a life of it. And that's like the
key is when people ask me about my book Living Resistance,
when they're like, you know, like, what's the big takeaway
or one of them, and I'm like, well, the way
I end the book is that resistance is lifelong work.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
So all of this stuff is like this is our
whole life. We could be eighty five and be like,
I don't like the way I've been doing that for
the past two decades. I'm going to change things this year.
This is the year, and we do it and it's great, Like,
please do it. If there's still something that needs to
change and shift in you when you're eighty five, when
you're eighty seven years old, when you're twenty three, when
(38:15):
you're you know, thirty six, forty two, whatever, like let
the things change and let yourself evolve and let the
story be told differently, because that whole idea, that it's
never too late, and also that our whole life is
for this work. Yeah, and that's a beautiful thing, so
that we're not like I have to read all the
books before October and I have to be totally ready
(38:37):
this year, Like do the things you can do. Please
tell the truth about certain holidays. Like that's awesome work,
Please do that, but don't, like, you know, try to
recreate it all completely. It has to be right. That's
just more pressure we're putting on ourselves, and that's not
the goal. That's not what we should be doing.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Right exactly. Okay, talk to me about Winter's gifts. I
don't want you to give away all of the gifts
that are in the book, but when we are in
the fall leading into winter, what are a couple of
Winter's gifts. What are a couple of those gifts that
(39:17):
we can think about be more intentional about observing. What
are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I'm going to read a little from the book.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I was hoping so yeah, I'm just going to read the.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
First few pages because I feel like that's yeah, that
it's such a good question. And like I said earlier,
like winter can be overwhelming, even the coming we can start.
I mean, people deal with depression in winter. It's very real.
There's a lot, there's a heaviness that comes and a blanketing,
and that can be very hard. So I would I
(39:50):
would never dismiss how really hard it is for people.
But they are also just these beautiful gifts. So let
me just read a little bit from OK. And I
always say like children's books are not just for children,
like I read. I mean, I have two kids and
I've been reading them children's books for years, and we
just had piles and piles of them, and I'm like
reading them a book and they're like, you know, one
(40:11):
in three and I'm like sobbing and reading this book
and they're like, I don't know, strong, mom, but you
seem to really like, well, I don't know what's happening.
And there are just some children's books like they're so therapeutic,
like we are all I'm always like, we're still connected
to our child selves. There is still some healing to
be done there. Yeah, So if you need to buy
Winter's Gifts and like let it heal your relationship to
(40:32):
your child self, please do it, like, please do it?
All right, I'm gonna read. Donnie touches a frost covered
branch on the oak tree in her yard. She shivers,
Winter or babone is coming in a few days. Our
family will light a fire or showde and think about
the darkest night of the year. Many of her friends
are afraid of the dark, but not Donnie. The dark
(40:52):
feels like a hug, and winter is a time for
cozy hugs. The dark of winter reminds us to rest,
even the rest in winter. And then there's a section
here Donnie thinks about the gifts of winter. They are
different from the gifts that come during the holidays. Winter's
gifts are telling stories and waiting. Another gift of winter
(41:14):
is resting like the bears. After we rest for a while,
the sun brings back the grass, the flowers, and the
leaves on the trees. So I think that thinking about
winter is like this, reminding ourselves that it's this preparation time,
like that the bears they're resting for a reason, like
they know what's coming when spring comes. And you know,
(41:34):
and even the plants, the plants that die aren't just dead,
but they know what's coming in spring, when everything's going
to come to life again. And I think that that's beautiful,
like this time of covering ourselves up, going inward, waiting,
asking what the waiting means in preparation for what comes next.
And I think that thinking of winter that way, I
(41:55):
think helps me. Like it's a waiting time, but it's
also a preparation time.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Yeah, you know, Oh, I love that imagery that the
darkness of winter is like a hug.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Oh oh, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That is that is that is for children, but it
is for adults and all the kids inside of us too,
to remember that. Caitlyn, thank you so much. And you're
not gonna get me in my tear ducks today, you know,
Katelyn started reading them page as child.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I'm about to be in here crying, crying.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Okay, oh my gosh, tell the people where they can
buy five copies of this book?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Y'all know how I do.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Anytime someone's you're talking to us about a book, I
want you to buy one by five. That way, when
somebody comes to your house and they're like, oh my gosh,
what's this book, you can be like, oh, look, here's one.
You could take that one with you. You have one
you keep in your house. So where can they buy
five copies of this book? And how can they stay
connected to your work? I had I have heard wind
about your stup substock community that there's some newsletter writing.
(42:52):
I just just tell us everything, Caitlyn, tell us everything.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yes, So the best way to find anything is on
my website, So Caitlyncurtis dot com. All the books are there,
all the ways to order them, you know. And yeah,
the Liminality Journal, which this will be I think that
your listeners will appreciate this. The Liminality Journal is my
sub stack. We write poetry together. We talk about liminal
(43:15):
space and the gray area right like this, this is
what we're talking about, like all the in between where
we don't really have the answers yet. And right now
I'm writing a series called After Church and it's for
people who you know, have left institutional church community and
are trying to figure out what community looks like after.
And I think that that's along the exact same vein
of what we've been talking about. And again, there are
(43:37):
a lot of us that are making those decisions, are
in the middle of that decision, or have already left,
but are still part of a spirituality, a deep faith,
whatever that may be. How do we build community again
or how do we keep building it in an intentional, ethical,
you know way? And I think that So that's a
that's a new series that I have and really loving
(43:58):
it as triggering as.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
It is really writing it.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
But yeah, I'm on Instagram all the time sharing my books,
and I travel and speak, so yeah, look up my website.
I mean, it's all there, and I would love to
say hi to anybody at my events, and yeah, please
buy five copies of my book. That would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Bye five, Thank you all, Thank you all, Caitlin. Thank
you for always saying yes to coming on here and
talking with me and just sharing your processing and your
work with us. I know that it really enriches the
listeners and me, So thank you so.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Much, Thank you so good to see you.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Her with Amina Brown is produced by Matt Owen for
Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women
Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening and
don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
Hey, y'all, welcome back to Her with Amina Brown. I'm
here in the living room with like one of my
favorite people, like one of my favoritest people. Please welcome poet, storyteller,
public speaker and author of new children's book Winners' Gifts,
Caitlin Curtis.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you, we are here. Everyone's applotting at home.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yes, you know what, Caitlyn, I realized today that I
think you and Colundra are my most often featured guests
on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I think you and Calundra.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
If I could give out awards for who appeared here,
the more it's you and Calundra. Because Calendra has been
coming on every year the past three years to talk
like best of TV stuff with me each year, and
I somehow find a way to really convince you to
come here and talk to me.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Because we have done it. It's our third third time.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, so I think I've talked to you once a year.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
It is our third, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah? Yeah, so thanks Caitlyn, thank you. It's really y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I was just telling Caitlin before we started recording, it's
really partly my excuse, just because we love each other.
So it's really partly my excuse to be like, oh,
let me just catch up with Caitlyn real quick on
a recording recording for all these people.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
You know, we're here for it. We're here for it. Caitlyn.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm so excited about your new book. This is your
first children's book, am I right?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah it is. I'm really excited and also I
don't know what to feel, so me.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Could you talk us through Where did the idea begin
for Winter's Gifts?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, we lived in Vermont at the time, and it
was awesome. I've wanted to write a children this book
for a long time, but I thought, what if I
could write four books that's a series and like could
be a box set one day, because I would want that,
like I would buy that as a parent. What if
I could create these four books that could be in
(02:14):
a box set that someone could buy and have to
show in their house throughout the seasons, because I changed
my house throughout the season, and I do all of that,
and I get out books for each like in each
of our tubs. It's like the season books come out.
And so so this first book came like it came quickly.
I needed to write it, I think, and a lot
(02:35):
of it is like, you know, relating to me as
a kid. A lot of it's watching my own kids.
And then it was like we lived in Vermont and
it was winter, so it was like, you know when
you think of snowy winter, it was like the perfect
setting for me to just sit on my couch, buy
my wood stove in this tiny rental house we were
living in Vermont. We lived there for one year, and
(02:56):
it was like this book was written in that season.
It was perfect, you know, and write about our husky Sam,
who passed away when we lived in Vermont, but he's
in the book, so he's like memorialized in this series,
which I really love. And yeah, I wanted to write
something that could sort of be universal but could also
(03:17):
speak to our podauatumy identity, and it just kind of
came came together really well in the celebration of all
the seasons. So we start with winter and it's coming
out and it'll be out for this you know, cozy
season that's coming and I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Oh I love it, and I'm really excited to dive
into this more with you y'all. One of my favorite
things about Kaitlin is the ways that she and I
can talk about spirituality, and that when we talk about
spirituality it has a lot of freedom and boundlessness. I've
definitely called Kaitlin like, Okay, so let's talk about this
dream I had, Like we have really interesting conversations around that.
(03:56):
And I think the idea of winter as a season
is very spiritual and not related necessarily to any particular religion,
but it's a very spiritual time. It's a time where
we are sort of contemplating the end of the year,
and we may be reflecting on the year that's passed,
we may be trying to prepare for the year to come.
It's just all of this sort of ruminating of the
(04:19):
soul during that time. And for some of us in
that season, you know, you being in Vermont during that time,
it's like you have some time whe It's like you
just have to be indoors a lot more too, because.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Of the weather, the snow, the cold, all those things.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Right, we're inside a lot, yeah, and Vermont it is cold, yeah,
but it was beautiful. And I mean winter's Winter's hard.
It's a hard season for a lot of people. It's
hard for mental health, emotional health. I mean, we're not
getting out in the sunlight as much like winter is hard,
and so I wanted to you know, we acknowledge that,
(04:53):
but also speak to but what are the gifts that
it also gives us? And like you said, it's like this,
it is this hibernation season, it's this inward season. It's
for us, it's the storytelling time. You know, it's the
time of the elders, Like when we are learning from
from those who came before us and those who are
older and wiser than us, and they're telling us the
(05:14):
stories that we need to hear. It's almost like you're
like storing up all those stories for the coming year,
for the coming seasons. And I think that's a really
beautiful thing. So I wanted to kind of figure out
a way to honor that in this book.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, can you talk about as we are now, sort
of at the time of this recording, sort of digging
into fall, which you start sort of feeling that transition
that fall is, you know, going to fold itself into winter.
And for some people there starts to be like a dread.
You know about that for very good reasons and very
(05:50):
important reasons, and for some people there starts to be
this like relief, this sense of like, Okay, We're going
to come to a time where I know I'm not
going to work as much. I know I'm going to
have or time with my friends or my family, my people.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
That I love.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
What are your thoughts about how we can even begin
the process to become more intentional about embracing winter.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Mm hmmm. I think it's important to like plan ahead
as much as we hate to hear that there is
this beauty in I mean, we plan ahead for the
celebrations of our life. You'd plan ahead for a birthday party,
You'd plan ahead for these things, so you know, mark
your calendar and plan ahead for winter solstice, like decide
to cook your favorite food that night and sit with
(06:34):
a few people you love and light some candles or
light a fire and just like intentionally set that side
that time aside and talk about gratitude and talk about grief,
and talk about who you are and what you're learning
about yourself in the season you find yourself in even
in your own life that life season, and what are
you hoping to learn in winter? Like, I think without
(06:56):
becoming like you know, super linear or like checking boxes
it's also really helpful to plan ahead and to be
prepared for this moment, for this time that we're going
to set this aside because it's gonna get crazy and busy.
You know, December comes and it's it's wild how busy
it things get. So set it aside. You know. Last year,
(07:18):
I got too busy and I couldn't really plan our
families solstice, and I was really sad about that. And
I was, Oh, I was doing my audiobook for Living Resistance,
my last book, so I was like taking the train
into Philly every day and doing these recordings, and I
just I didn't have the space or the energy. And
one day I showed up at home and my partner
(07:41):
Travis had like decked the whole table. It was full
of food, I mean, and he's an incredible cook, and
he just did it. He did it all for us,
and it was like, oh my gosh, the sweetest thing
because he knew how much of it to me. He
knows that it's just a part of our family and
we want to still honor that, and so he totally
me and I was really grateful, you know, like to
(08:03):
have someone else be like this is something we want
to honor, let's do it. We're still going to do it,
and so just make the space and try to plan.
And I think that that's a beautiful gift to give yourself, Yes,
to be ready.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You know, yeah, I love that. I was talking recently
with doctor Shanikua Walker Barnes on this podcast and we
were talking about self care and where celebration also plays
a role in that, where joy plays a role in
our self care, and that was one of the things
she said. She said, sometimes we need to plan ahead
our celebrations or even our commemorations. There is sometimes a
(08:38):
thing that we want to hold a certain space for.
It may be something celebratory, it maybe something that we
need to just mark time about or take time to
honor in a way, and that that does take a
bit of planning and community. That in that moment that
you were like this year, I can't be the person
who plans, I can't be the person who puts this
thing together, and that your partner was like, it can
(09:00):
be me this year.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
You know, I think that's really really dope.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, it was really sweet, and that's so true where
it's I tell people things like that all the time,
Like this in the same vein like plan ahead for
your care if you need to schedule it. If you're
that type of person, then treat it like it's part
of your job, like schedule it in the things that
you need. And it's hard because, especially being an author,
you work on these books for so long and then
(09:25):
you finally get to the end and it's like celebration
but also total exhaustion and a leaf and all this.
Then then the stress just builds somehow, even more than
you thought I would. And a lot of times I
neglect the celebration part of just like take a deep
breath it finally the book is out, the thing has happened,
(09:45):
like celebrate it. And that is that's really hard for me, actually,
So I'm going to remind myself of that as this
children's book comes out and as winter approaches, like drink
a little bit of extra hot cocoa and sit by
the fire a little longer and take your tie with it.
And I think that that's that's good advice. I'm gonna
take it.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Right, The therapy session is great, you.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Know, that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But Caitlin, you know you and I have talked to
about just how interesting it is being an author that
it's it's a really wonderful, privileged opportunity to you know,
be able to take the words that you have and
put them in this book.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
But it is hard.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
It is hard, and I have gotten to the end
of the process and not felt as not felt like
as much of a winner.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
As I thought I was gonna feel like. I thought
it was gonna be like like that real like Rocky
blah blah blah blah, you know like that, and ins said,
I was just like with the covers up, Yeah, totally crying,
you know.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So I do think it's important after all of that,
to not just honor that, you know, writing a book
is air quotes and achievement. It's to honor all that
you had to put in to it, all that it's
out of you to do. And unfortunately, you know, in
the business part of us being authors, I feel like
(11:07):
the celebration of us can get lost in the sauce.
It's like, the book comes out, You've got all the
interviews if you decide to do those, You've got all
this promotional stuff. You've got to post stuff on social media,
You've got to do all those things. There's there's no
one there.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
You had your editor to walk through these parts with you.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
You had your line editor or your copy editor, you
had all these people, but you don't have a person
outside of your people that love you in your life
to actually come alongside you and be like, hey, let's
go to dinner or let's bake our favorite thing, let's
do something to celebrate you that like you did this,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah, yeah, which is why, like I tell people all
the time that being an author is not it's not
a solo it's a solo practice, right. Our work can
be very isolated and solo, but like we're part of
this community of writers, but also whoever those people are
that are in our life, like we it is not
(12:00):
we cannot do it alone. It is always connected to
community and how we are able to especially if we're
from marginalized communities or oppressed voices trying to share our
words with the world, Like we need the people who
hold us up and shout for us, because sometimes it
is like you just want to be done and almost
(12:21):
like forget it happened for a second, and you don't
want to do that, you know, like celebrate the thing,
the beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about the holidays here
because as we are leading, I think the interesting thing
about winter is as a literal season, it has a
lot of beauty in it. It has a lot of
things that it can teach us. I also think, particularly
for those of us who are living in America right now,
(12:50):
there is sometimes the feeling of like, oh shit, here
I go with all the holiday functions and some nah,
you know, like it gets to be that sort of
feeling of like, now it's gonna be all this stuff.
You know, my friends that have kids, they're like, I
gotta do this stuff at the school, and now you
got a holiday concert.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I got it, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And then you have like your extended family stuff. You're like, oh,
well we're gonna go over so and so's house and yikes,
the way the conversation was last.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Year and whatever that stuff is.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So I feel like that also participates in bringing us
the feelings of dread that some of us have as
it relates to holidays and holiday gatherings. I wanted to
get some of your perspective about this because I wanted
to share with you that I feel like the beginning
part of the pandemic, where we were all kind of
(13:40):
like separated away from each other. There were a lot
of hard things about that. In some ways, there were
also some learnings for me of like, oh, look at
this holiday time that we got to have. That wasn't
the hustle and bustle, that wasn't the big, the big party,
the big gathering to go to. Like you sort of
got to kind of focus in a little bit more
(14:00):
with intentionality because we were having to, for the sake
of our health, opt out of some things, right, to
keep our kids safe, keep our loved ones safe, keep
our elders safe. Right, that's what we were having to do.
So then when the period of time came, it was like, oh,
it's safer. Now we can do the stuff we were
doing before. And I was like, oh god, do we.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Have to do that?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Though all the introverts are like, I think grew key,
Like I actually got it home a little longer, Like
I love you guys, but I enjoyed it without y'all.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So not sure, And I also think it can be.
And you and I have talked a lot about having
to build boundaries, right, We've talked about that on this podcast.
As far as boundaries, we've had to build around social
media and our work, you know, boundaries we've had to
build around when we're doing events for our work, you know.
(14:52):
And you and I personally have talked about other things
in life personally where we've had to build boundaries too,
And I feel like one of the boundaries it's real
hard is around the holidays, when what you may need
or what your family may need, maybe different from your friendships,
maybe different from your extended family.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
What do you think caused you to get to a
point where you felt you had permission to opt out?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's a good question. M Hm. This is hard, and
I think so many of us dance around this, and
it is really hard. The other well, and the other
like sort of blaring thing for a lot of us
that is connected to family and friends and all this
stuff is the what happens to those of us who's
like sort of vision of this wonderful America sorts to
(15:40):
like starts to cave in. And so that's like I'm
thinking specifically about like Thanksgiving, Eastern Christmas, sort of these
some of these holidays where you're starting to be like, oh,
that's like really rampant capitalism and consumerism, and it's kind
of gross, isn't it? And oh, like why can't we
sell also like the other holidays around this time, Like
(16:04):
why is it only Christmas and not all the other
holidays that are celebrated, you know, like things like this
and Thanksgiving is is what we know it to be.
It's a it's a total colonial holiday. So how do
we how do we reckon with the history around all
of it? And every year when it comes up, I
am you know, we live so far from our family too.
(16:25):
I mean we live across the country, so there's always
the travel and the there's just so many little strategic things,
and I think part of it is every year is
sort of the sitting down, do the strategic planning. What
can we handle? What are we able to do physically whatever?
With the school breaks, with all the things, like what
(16:47):
can we actually handle that we're able to do? And
then also I think it's important to ask like what
do we need? Because it just isn't It's not helpful
to just like run ourselves strive. So last year for Thanksgiving,
we actually went and stayed in a an off grid
tiny house in upstate New York. It was like the
(17:09):
weirdest best thing ever. I mean, like God, we rock
climb as a family. So what we needed most and
we're going to do something similar again this year. What
we need most is to just get to the land,
into the quiet and not really focus on this particular holiday.
That's not everybody, like everyone has different things. We love food,
(17:30):
we love meals, we love gratitude, we love the act
of Thanksgiving, but we would prefer to just like be
on some land where it's quiet and actually commune with nature,
think about Mother Earth. Do that as a family, you know,
And so that's become really important to us. So last
year we just stayed at this like in this crazy
off grid little house thing and we're like pumping our
(17:55):
water for our coffee in the mornings, Like we had
to work for it. We had to work for that holiday.
But it was it was perfect because it wasn't anything
like the stress of what it usually is. Yeah, and
that and it was great and we and we celebrated
and we did what we needed. And I think that
a lot of us who struggle with boundaries, who struggle
with these conversations, feel guilty and selfish a lot of
(18:18):
the time. And and we go to therapy being like,
what are we going to do this here are you
going to help me figure this out?
Speaker 3 (18:25):
That's how are you going to help me figure this out?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah? It's hard. It's asking each each of ourselves what
we can handle, what do we need? What can we handle?
And how can we lie strategize? And it's really funny
that that's like what I would say is that we
have to strategize. But I guess it's like like the
planning ahead for solstice, it's the same thing, and you
(18:50):
have to just have some time to do the things
you want because there are so many things right like
pulling for our time, so many parties, so many gatherings,
so many meals. Where's the rest, where's the care, where's
the sort of quiet kinship, where's the connection with mother Earth? Like?
Are you doing that throughout that time? Because I think
it becomes so much about money and gifts, And you know,
(19:12):
in my children's book, there's like a line where Donnie,
the main character, is talking to her friends from school
and they're talking about Christmas or the holidays, and she's like,
what about the gifts of winter? And they're like what
about them? Like they're kind of like Mother doesn't give
us gifts? Like what are you talking about. And that's
Donnie's big dilemma in the book is, Oh no, these
(19:33):
like people who are my friends, they don't believe that
mother Earth gives us gifts. They want the tangible presence,
they want the stuff, But what about the gifts that
are just already existing out there? And I think the
best way for us to even practice embodiment to get
back to our own bodies, our own grounding, to learn boundaries.
(19:54):
All of that is actually connected to how we access
our relationship to Mother Earth, right, And I know that
people don't realize that, and I'm realizing it as an adult,
Like I didn't grow up learning that. But when we
start to repair our relationship to the land, it changes
our bodies. It gives us strength to do things and
(20:15):
make decisions that we wouldn't before. And I don't really
know how to describe how it happens, but I know
it happens, and I know that it heals us and
helps us. And I think the holiday seasons are like
a perfect time to put that into practice.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah you know, yeah, Oh that is so helpful, Caitlin.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I'm like, I don't know why. Every time I talk
to you, I'm like tearing up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
But I'm like, man, that's so helpful, because I think
I think a lot of it is based on sort
of an americanized probably you know, you know, insert capitalist
vision of what holidays were supposed to be. And that's
very centered around what we deem to be tradition, which
is not always it's not always tradition in a holistic sense,
(21:09):
as far as it being connected to the people we
come from, or connected to the land, to those stories
that we need to retell. Sometimes it's tradition connected to obligation,
connected to the appearance that it's supposed to have in
the picture or in the video, right, And so when
we're like, oh, my whole family's gathering for such and
(21:31):
such holiday, I will be messing up the tradition by
deciding that that's not a gathering I think I can
participate in. And I do think a part of this
time gives us, hopefully the ability to where we can
with family and friends have some honest conversation around that.
To have some honest conversation, I know I've had to say, Hey,
(21:52):
such and such holidays coming up, and we might need
to not be at that, or if we come to
that we might need to be there for a much
shorter time than you're used to seeing us, you know,
to start sort of having some of those conversations where
you can. Some of us have family members where you
can't have those conversations. They're not going to be helpful.
Do it earlier where you can.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, just get it out there.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Lay in the groundwork there of like that way in
case we leave early or we get there and we
don't have gifts, you know, like you you already know
what's happening here, you know. I think I think if
you are listening to this and you're sort of feeling
that that sense of dread and the uh that comes
with it, I think sometimes that dread is trying to
speak to us, which is to answer the question you said, Caitlin,
(22:34):
what is it you need in this season? What you
may have needed a previous holiday season. You may need
have different needs right now, and to be able to
pay attention to that. You know, I've had some holidays
where it was like I needed to call my friends
and say, I need you to come to my house.
Just bring whatever food you have. We don't care, we'll
have like an ugly pot. Look I don't care. I
(22:56):
just need my house full of people. Yeah, I'm like,
the foods great, but maybe it doesn't look great.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
You know, just bring your ugly food to my home.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I just need to like hear people's voices that I
love and we'll play some card games or whatever we do.
And sometimes that's what you need. And there are other
seasons that come that you're like, I need that tiny house,
you know, I need to be closer to the land,
away from the grid, away from the devices and all
of that. So I think that's a really powerful question
(23:26):
to ask what do you need this year?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, and to be aware of the fact that other
people won't need what you need. So maybe don't invite
that person to go on the long hike with you
because that's probably may not be what they need. And
if you need it and you're aware that they don't, like,
hold some space and maybe meet up for coffee at
some other point, you know, like, don't expect other people
(23:50):
to be changing in the same way as that you're changing.
Or you know, a lot of us are deconstructing, we're
asking hard questions, we're ending up sort of separating in
sith out relationships. Like that's happening for a whole lot
of people. And when we start to question, especially the
norms or the status quo in America and around things
like holidays, it gets really difficult sometimes. But just like
(24:14):
it's hard for us, it's also going to be hard
for others sometimes too. They that doesn't mean they're just
going to come along up with us. Then, So there
is this like there's a reciprocity of care. I think
that we can hold with others. And I know that
that's hard for some of us to hear, especially if
we feel, you know, if they're wrong but we're right,
or if like you know, we're trying to decolonize this holiday,
(24:36):
like what are you doing? But we have to hold
space for that because not everyone is going to be
at that. So again, what do we need? How can
we hold all of that? You know? And grounding ourselves
with what we need, I think is the best way
to do it, you know, and to create space where
we can.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I love that you said reciprocity of care, and that
is hard because sometimes especially especially if what is sending
you to opt out of something, if rage is involved,
you know, if like you've gotten to a point where
you're just like I'm like, I'm fed up with some shit.
So no, I said what I said, we not gonna
be doing that this year at whatever holiday. I said,
(25:13):
We're not doing that. You know, like it's and your
anger is understandable and valid. It's very valid, and to
where you can hold space for the other person across
the table that they may have their own, very valid
emotional reasons why they want to gather in these ways,
(25:35):
and just finding ways to do what you need for
yourself and in some ways to Caitlin, I also feels
as an oldest child and people pleaser. I've had to
accept that sometimes doing what I need will be disappointing
to other people. And that doesn't mean that because it's
disappointing to them, that it's wrong that I'm doing what
I need to do. But there is a way I
(25:55):
can say, this isn't a malicious thing I'm doing to
you in any way. This is me doing what I need.
And I realized you wanted to see us at that gathering.
I realized you hoped that we would participate in this
such and such way, and I realized it will be
disappointing to you that we can't. But your disappointment can't
be the motivator for why I need to move beyond
(26:17):
what is a boundary for me right now.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, there are wise words from a people pleaser.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's hard, Oh it's hard.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
So hard.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I think this time in the last three years really
showed me how much I was used to doing out
of obligation.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yeah, so many things.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That I was just like, oh, I actually now that
I had a chance to opt out of that, actually
realized I had years I wasn't having a good time,
or I had years I didn't enjoy this. I had
years I needed something else and I wasn't able to
listen to my inside soul. I wasn't able to listen
to my own spirit in a way in that season
of life. But I can hear me now, and I
(27:01):
can hear what I need that.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
And I think a lot of that for a lot
of us who grew up in Christian spaces too. That
goes back to that same kind of people pleasing expectation
of like, well, of course you're going to celebrate this holiday,
or of course you're going to come to this service
or this youth event, or you're going to participate in
this way, like, of course you are, because that's what
we do, you know. And so to disrupt any of
(27:23):
those status quos, any of those social norms within our
religious communities, or our families, or you know, whatever it
is our social communities, like that can be really scary.
That can be really scary for a lot of people.
Like it's it's not easy, you know, And so like
going gentle with ourselves during this time is I mean,
(27:44):
I like, I love the holidays. I love the coming coziness.
I love wrapping presents and thinking of people and giving
them these gifts that are meaningful to me and I
picked them for these people for this reason. Like I
love all of that. I love watching Christmas movies. I
love the music. I love it. I think it's incredible.
And also it can at the same time, I feel
(28:06):
the exhaustion and I feel sort of the tension. So
it's and we're allowed to shift. We are allowed to shift,
we are allowed to change, we are allowed to say
for some reason, this holiday feels really hard this year,
and I don't know why. Maybe I can change a
few things about how I'm approaching it because last year
was different, and like we have to hold space for that.
I think if the COVID season incubation taught us anything
(28:31):
it was that, like we have to hold space that
some years things are completely different than other years. Yeah,
so just because we make a decision for one year,
that's that doesn't mean that's always going to be our
pattern either. And it's okay to like to deconstruct, to
ask the questions, to say, I don't know why, but
whatever I did last year isn't working for me this year,
and I have to change something, you know, And that's okay,
(28:54):
It really is okay, but we have to give ourselves
permission for it to be okay.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, this was my first time the last couple of
years opting out of Easter. I was normally a person
who's like I mean, first of all, in having worked
in Christian Spaces a long time, Easter was a work
day for many years. Oh yeah, because I was going
there to speak at this place, to perform for a
good Friday and Easter service and stuff. And then after
(29:18):
I left doing Christian Spaces, then it was like, okay, well,
now I just get to like enjoy that holiday with
my family. We get to like go to church together,
go eat afterwards or whatever and then between twenty twenty
twenty twenty one, somewhere up in there, it was like
Easter was approaching and I was like, not me this year.
Not me. I'm I'm not gonna go to church. I
(29:40):
don't want to go to anyone's like after dinner thing
you do after that, like just just opted out. I
think one year, I just watched Beyonce's Lemonade, which turned
out to be very great. That was my like, you know,
this is still you know, resurrection, redemption in some way.
This Yes, that's what I'm doing. Yes, And a part
(30:02):
of me was shaking, really, you know, inwardly a lot
of trepidation of like, oh my god, what does it
mean that I've just decided to like right out of
this Where where am I? I feel like when you
grow up evangelical, there's this way that you're like, oh god,
I'm on the slippery slope. I'm just gonna keep sliding.
(30:24):
I don't know what I'm sliding into, but it's very
slippery and it's a slope and I'm yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
And what's funny. What's so funny though, is that so
many of our Christian holidays are like super Christian and
then super capitalistic and weird like the Easter Bunny and
like you hope to get a bunch of eggs with
like money in them, but also like make sure it's
about Jesus. So we have these weird you know, and
like Sannah and capitalism and are you a good little kid?
(30:54):
And Jesus' birth and so there's like all of these
things where we've you know, it's just it's what cultures
and societies do. But we sort of like blend these
weird things together and call it a holiday. And then
when you start to ask deep questions, you're like which
part have I given up? Or how is like sort
of am I done with all of it? Like? Or
(31:16):
you know, do we do the Easter bunny part but
not the other part? Or do we like what happens now?
Like because it is so cultural, it's so embedded, right,
and I think we're going through some of that in
our family as well, and and me personally, like what
parts do we keep? Are we allowed to keep bits
and pieces?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Are we not allowed to do that? Do we? You know?
Is the whole thing gone? And we just ride the
slip slipper slip down? You know? And there's a bunch
of people waiting there, so it's not like we're the
only ones doing it. A bunch of people have done it,
Like a lot of people are trying to ask these questions. Yeah,
which I think is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I think it is good to like explore that.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I think I'm also a person who sort of like, like,
if I could use dating as an example, it's like
I can't be like cordial or friends with someone I
just broke up with, So it's like I need that
time of like let's just not see each other, let's
not talk, let's not text.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I don't want to do like I don't want to
do that.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
And then if like enough time passes by or I've
been able to like sort of find my voice again,
figure out my feelings, whatever, then I can see that
person somewhere and just be like, oh, hey, like how
are you. I still don't want to kick it with you,
and I still may not want to go to coffee
or whatever, but I can at least be like I
can have a conversation for a little while and not
be so awkward. And I sort of feel when you're
(32:31):
in a process of deconstructing, whether that's you know, from
the religion you were raised with, or also, like you
were saying, Caitlin, a lot of us are learning about
the roots of some of the holidays that we celebrated
beyond religion, and we're learning the roots of that are
very terrible, and so that causes us to also begin
(32:52):
to question right. So it's like, sometimes I'm a person
and everyone's process on this will be different. I'm a
person who's like I just need like a like a
cult turkey away from you, away from that, and then
I'll start to find myself sort of finding the mosaic
of things that I that I'm like, oh, yeah, I do.
I may not want to go to this kind of service,
(33:14):
but I do like the singing, and I do want
to keep.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Some parts of that.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
I may not want to celebrate this in this sort
of way, but I do want to find a way
to honor the ancestors by how we do this type
of thing, you know. So I do think the mosaic
part can be kind of fun and interesting and healing
that process, but I do need the breakup time sometimes
(33:39):
or I'm just like no, no, thank you, No, I
don't know, I don't want no thank you I don't
want to hear away in a manger. I don't want
to do that. I don't want to have I don't
want your Easter bunny. Maybe I do want to get
the candies on discount after Easter is over, but I
don't want Maybe I will get a little pastel Reese's cup.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
But listen, I.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Love that I love these that dating metaphor because my
my metaphor is like a pendulum swing, so I like
go from one into the complete other, and then eventually,
after the grief has subsided a little, I start finding
my way to a balance, to a center, to something.
So your mosaic is like it's my balance and center.
(34:20):
I love that we have these two different metaphors that
are the same the same thing.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Yes, it, but I.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Think that's healthy. I think that it's like when you, you know,
when I realized that I there are certain foods that
I can eat and I have these health issues, like
you have to cut it, like cut it all out
and then you slowly start adding it back in to
see how you feel and how it affects you. And
I think it's I think it's really similar with this.
You know, you cut it all out or most of
it or whatever you need and then you see and
(34:49):
not the I don't want to I don't want to
go into like then like appropriation world where we're like, oh,
these religions all nice, let's rat everywhere and we'll just
make something.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
This is fun.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
So that's not what we're saying, Yeah, but we're saying, like,
what can we create that's meaningful. I would love for
any human to create a winter Solstice ritual that means
something to them that honors their ancestors, the honors who
they are, that brings their culture like to the table
and their gifts of gratitude, you know, like how can
we do that honoring others? How can we make it
(35:24):
about kinship and belonging and like this deep beautiful connection
with Mother Earth and with our bodies and with each other.
Like I think that's what a lot of us are
trying to do after getting away from a lot of
these systems and spaces that are so like so much
about disembodiment and oppression and you know, lives like the
(35:46):
stories that we haven't been told, and I think we're
all trying to get back to some sort of how
do we reapproach these things with care and nuance and
the beauty of their complexity, the mosaic, like the balance,
how do we find that? And that's hard? Yeah, and
it calls for care, which I think is why so
many of us are exhausted when this time rolls around.
(36:08):
If we're doing that work, it is exhausting, like, oh,
what do I feel about Thanksgiving? This here? What kind
of food should I make? What would be appropriate? Who's
lands amion? Like all those questions. It's tiring, and like
you have to just go slow and be okay that
it's exhausting because it's beautiful work, but it can be exhausting.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, and it takes time too. It's like like you said,
it's holding space for where you are in this particular year,
and that next year you may need different things, you
may be in a different place. And as time goes on,
if you are beginning this work inside yourself, then you
will continue on with that work. You will grow, you
(36:49):
will evolve, you will have different ways that you will
change and know what your boundaries are, what your wants are.
You will know more of what feels ethical to you,
of what part of your processes have integrity to you,
and how to walk in all of that, All of
that is a time thing. Unfortunately, unfortunately, fortunately it's a
(37:11):
time thing.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
It's like, you can't expect yourself to be like herein
I will read a book as long as all of
Shakespeare's works, in which I will know all of the
things that I'm supposed to know and all of the
practices that I'm supposed to take upon myself, as well
as the practices that I should not do because they
don't belong to me and I should not be involved
in that. Like, you're not going to know that in
three months or a year. You know, you're just going
(37:33):
to be building a life of knowing and evolving. I mean,
that's the only way I can think.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yes, and a life of it. And that's like the
key is when people ask me about my book Living Resistance,
when they're like, you know, like, what's the big takeaway
or one of them, and I'm like, well, the way
I end the book is that resistance is lifelong work.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
So all of this stuff is like this is our
whole life. We could be eighty five and be like,
I don't like the way I've been doing that for
the past two decades. I'm going to change things this year.
This is the year, and we do it and it's great, Like,
please do it. If there's still something that needs to
change and shift in you when you're eighty five, when
you're eighty seven years old, when you're twenty three, when
(38:15):
you're you know, thirty six, forty two, whatever, like let
the things change and let yourself evolve and let the
story be told differently, because that whole idea, that it's
never too late, and also that our whole life is
for this work. Yeah, and that's a beautiful thing, so
that we're not like I have to read all the
books before October and I have to be totally ready
(38:37):
this year, Like do the things you can do. Please
tell the truth about certain holidays. Like that's awesome work,
Please do that, but don't, like, you know, try to
recreate it all completely. It has to be right. That's
just more pressure we're putting on ourselves, and that's not
the goal. That's not what we should be doing.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Right exactly. Okay, talk to me about Winter's gifts. I
don't want you to give away all of the gifts
that are in the book, but when we are in
the fall leading into winter, what are a couple of
Winter's gifts. What are a couple of those gifts that
(39:17):
we can think about be more intentional about observing. What
are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I'm going to read a little from the book.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I was hoping so yeah, I'm just going to read the.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
First few pages because I feel like that's yeah, that
it's such a good question. And like I said earlier,
like winter can be overwhelming, even the coming we can start.
I mean, people deal with depression in winter. It's very real.
There's a lot, there's a heaviness that comes and a blanketing,
and that can be very hard. So I would I
(39:50):
would never dismiss how really hard it is for people.
But they are also just these beautiful gifts. So let
me just read a little bit from OK. And I
always say like children's books are not just for children,
like I read. I mean, I have two kids and
I've been reading them children's books for years, and we
just had piles and piles of them, and I'm like
reading them a book and they're like, you know, one
(40:11):
in three and I'm like sobbing and reading this book
and they're like, I don't know, strong, mom, but you
seem to really like, well, I don't know what's happening.
And there are just some children's books like they're so therapeutic,
like we are all I'm always like, we're still connected
to our child selves. There is still some healing to
be done there. Yeah, So if you need to buy
Winter's Gifts and like let it heal your relationship to
(40:32):
your child self, please do it, like, please do it?
All right, I'm gonna read. Donnie touches a frost covered
branch on the oak tree in her yard. She shivers,
Winter or babone is coming in a few days. Our
family will light a fire or showde and think about
the darkest night of the year. Many of her friends
are afraid of the dark, but not Donnie. The dark
(40:52):
feels like a hug, and winter is a time for
cozy hugs. The dark of winter reminds us to rest,
even the rest in winter. And then there's a section
here Donnie thinks about the gifts of winter. They are
different from the gifts that come during the holidays. Winter's
gifts are telling stories and waiting. Another gift of winter
(41:14):
is resting like the bears. After we rest for a while,
the sun brings back the grass, the flowers, and the
leaves on the trees. So I think that thinking about
winter is like this, reminding ourselves that it's this preparation time,
like that the bears they're resting for a reason, like
they know what's coming when spring comes. And you know,
(41:34):
and even the plants, the plants that die aren't just dead,
but they know what's coming in spring, when everything's going
to come to life again. And I think that that's beautiful,
like this time of covering ourselves up, going inward, waiting,
asking what the waiting means in preparation for what comes next.
And I think that thinking of winter that way, I
(41:55):
think helps me. Like it's a waiting time, but it's
also a preparation time.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Yeah, you know, Oh, I love that imagery that the
darkness of winter is like a hug.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Oh oh, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That is that is that is for children, but it
is for adults and all the kids inside of us too,
to remember that. Caitlyn, thank you so much. And you're
not gonna get me in my tear ducks today, you know,
Katelyn started reading them page as child.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I'm about to be in here crying, crying.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Okay, oh my gosh, tell the people where they can
buy five copies of this book?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Y'all know how I do.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Anytime someone's you're talking to us about a book, I
want you to buy one by five. That way, when
somebody comes to your house and they're like, oh my gosh,
what's this book, you can be like, oh, look, here's one.
You could take that one with you. You have one
you keep in your house. So where can they buy
five copies of this book? And how can they stay
connected to your work? I had I have heard wind
about your stup substock community that there's some newsletter writing.
(42:52):
I just just tell us everything, Caitlyn, tell us everything.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yes, So the best way to find anything is on
my website, So Caitlyncurtis dot com. All the books are there,
all the ways to order them, you know. And yeah,
the Liminality Journal, which this will be I think that
your listeners will appreciate this. The Liminality Journal is my
sub stack. We write poetry together. We talk about liminal
(43:15):
space and the gray area right like this, this is
what we're talking about, like all the in between where
we don't really have the answers yet. And right now
I'm writing a series called After Church and it's for
people who you know, have left institutional church community and
are trying to figure out what community looks like after.
And I think that that's along the exact same vein
of what we've been talking about. And again, there are
(43:37):
a lot of us that are making those decisions, are
in the middle of that decision, or have already left,
but are still part of a spirituality, a deep faith,
whatever that may be. How do we build community again
or how do we keep building it in an intentional, ethical,
you know way? And I think that So that's a
that's a new series that I have and really loving
(43:58):
it as triggering as.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
It is really writing it.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
But yeah, I'm on Instagram all the time sharing my books,
and I travel and speak, so yeah, look up my website.
I mean, it's all there, and I would love to
say hi to anybody at my events, and yeah, please
buy five copies of my book. That would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Bye five, Thank you all, Thank you all, Caitlin. Thank
you for always saying yes to coming on here and
talking with me and just sharing your processing and your
work with us. I know that it really enriches the
listeners and me, So thank you so.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Much, Thank you so good to see you.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Her with Amina Brown is produced by Matt Owen for
Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women
Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening and
don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
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