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April 22, 2020 94 mins

Ethan Zohn joins Brooks and Gavin.

Brooks talks about why he is quarantined in Idaho and what he is working on and Gavin reveals he is struggling writing music.

Ethan Zohn is so much more than a SURVIVOR CONTESTANT and helps Gavin and Brooks understand anxiety, healing, feelings of isolation, and being a true survivor.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is How Men Think? With Brooks and and I
heard radio podcast. Welcome to another episode of How Men Think.
My name is Brooks. Like and with me, we have
Mr Gavin DeGraw. What's up? I'm doing good? But I
miss your face? Yeah, man, bro, I mean I can

see your face as we're doing this over zoom, but
I missing you in real life in the flesh. Man. Um,
But how are you doing? You? Look? I mean what
I'm looking at here for those of you that are
listening is Gavin in a nice flannel shirt, a nice
almost English hat um sleeve, very English, dark black T shirt.

I mean, Amy would have a massive crush on you
right now. And you're in a You're in a fancy
looking studio. Where are you, buddy? I'm just in my
one of my rooms at the piano room at the house.
Oh okay, can you give me a fancy can you
do me a favor? Yeah? I really want to learn
to play I used to play piano growing out. My

mom maybe play piano when I was six, seven and eight,
or I couldn't play hockey. And I want to learn
the song sound of Silence on piano? Can you play it? Hello?
Dark man? Smile friends. Yeah, it's just I can learn it. Um.
A great song, man, a great song. I've been listening
to the Piano Guys. Have you heard of the Piano Guys? No,

the Piano Guys and the Brooklyn duo there. Uh they're
a piano mixed with a cello, and I just I
have that look on kinda sometimes in the evening for
like a year or so. My buddy Matt Hewitt got
me onto them. And I just heard sound of Silence
on piano the other day and I'm like, oh, that's
such a beautiful song. It is. That is actually amazing song.

Paul Simon is is at the top of the top
of the mountain as far as talent goes, songwriting talent goes.
He's a he's a out as good as it's going
to get. How would you rank your song your pianist skills?
And I said pianist your piano skills when I put
them at the bottom of the mountain, really at the

bottom of the map. Is it easy for you to
learn a new song? Like if I said, let's learn
this song, could you learn it pretty quick? It depends
on the song. Um, it really depends on the songs.
How familiar I am with the song, UM and the
difficulty level. I guess the way to cheat is to
just slow it way down. I just play it as

slow as possible, you know. But that's how you practice anything,
you know. Yeah, everything is slow, so you always start slow.
So well, I don't know, man, I'm the piano playing.
It's something that that I love to do. UM. But
it's also it was never the first thing that came
to me. Singing always came to me much much easier
than playing playing the instrument, the instruments of things that

I've always worked at. Have you been playing a lot
or writing a lot luring this time I've been writing. Um,
I've been writing quite a bit, mostly starts of songs,
you know. I begin a lot of music and UM.
It's it's it's a really weird, uh time to be

trying to write songs, because when I'm writing, I almost
think that what I'm writing might not be important enough
if I'm not capturing the snapshot in time that we're
living in um or giving people some kind of hope
to get out of this time. But at the same time,
I don't really want to be reminded of this after this,

so that's the debate, you know, But do you want
to document this thing? How much do you want to
document this thing? Um? I have my own little debates,
my own little debates with it because I'm writing songs
that do kind of capture the moment. But at the
same time, how much do I wan want to be
minded of this? Have you have you felt creative and
inspired during this time or have you felt like drained

and lethargic and like uninspired. I've had both those experiences, man.
I think I think the first couple of weeks, in particular,
I was just in strict prepper mode. Strict prepper mode,
you know what I mean. It was like stock in
the closet with food and like outdoor gear, bugout gear,

you know what I mean, fuel in the in the
full wheel drive, like kind of like just that mode,
you know, um, preparing for stores to be shut down,
things like that. Um. And then after that it took
me a while and then I see a lot of
people putting up content online and I just wasn't feeling
inspired to do that, um for for a bit of time.

And then and then I kind of then I kind
of got inspired to it after a while too. It
took me a minute though, you know it, really, it
took me a little while to feel creative at all. Um.
First it was prepper mode. Then it was the that
lethargy or whatever the word is, um, and then I

started getting more creative. And but now I'm kind of
rotting that line between should I work today or sleep today?
And what day is it? Did I walk the dog
yet today or was that yesterday? You know what I mean?
Ground dog day? Oh man, I'm telling you, man, I

had this really terrible mustache up until about ten minutes ago.
I shaved it off for you. I didn't want to.
I didn't want to upset anybody. Yeah, So that's that's it.
It's impressive when a man dresses up for a Zoom podcast.

You've got my boat tie, man, I forgot my boat's eye.
Must meet your board as hell, dude, so so utterly
board man. And uh yeah. Sometimes man, it's like if
I had a clock, i'd hear it kicking um, But
instead I just I can hear my dog licking his
body parts instead. That's the clock. It's just anywhere I go,

he just followed me around. It sounds like the kicking
of the clock that doesn't really keep even time. Oh, man,
I miss buddy. I miss that guy. Um house Koda, Man,
how's your dog going? Koda is awesome? Man. I'm up
in Idaho. I'm at my host in Idaho. I spend
the whole day outside. I'm outside from like seven thirty

till five o'clock. I have ten and a half acres here. Are.
Property is pretty big here, and I've just been doing
a mass cleaning of it. Like, yah, good for you. Everything, move,
building some rock walls, chains on down, some trees, clear
and brush you need it. Not easy work, man, chains
work is not easy work. If you do it, you

do it properly, can be if you do it wrong. Yeah. Um,
and I've done a lot of You can copeck your
arm off, man with a change, he may be careful man. Yeah.
If there was a guy from my hometown who cut
his own arm off with a chain, so yeah, he
had terrible chain to act. Yeah, dude. I had a
guy out We have some probably like hundred foot trees,

Like there's some big pine trees out here, and I
had a guy out here climb up at the other
day and saw it down from the top because there
was one close to the house here. That's kind of danny.
If a big windstorm comes in, it could blow it over.
And watching a guy watching the slogan guy go up
trim with the chainsaw hanging from his belt and climb
this tree. Yeah, and saw off the branches like chains

off the branches, climbed to the very top and then
chunk it off and come down. Man, what an art. Yeah, absolutely,
absolutely the hazard pay man. Yeah. But man, he's been
after moose. Yeah, he's finding some. He was munching on
a deer skull the other day. He's fine and all
he's got he's got to have wolf in him. There's

gotta be some sort of wolf in him, a wolf man. Yeah. Yeah,
it's been great. Um so yeah, that but the I'm
doing okay with the isolation. Like I'm out here, I'm
about fifteen minutes out of town. Um. I have one
neighbor that lives couple hundred yards away, and then another
neighbor that lives another couple hundred yards away, and that's

all that's out here. Um, And so I don't I
see them when they walk their dogs a little bit,
but don't see the much we're practicing social distancing. But
I've been good with the isolation, right. I think I'm
an introvert by nature. I love having my dog. If
it wasn't for my dog, I'd probably be a little
more aunty with the isolation. But how are you doing
in general with the isolation. I haven't been completely isolated,

you know. I mean I lived downtown Nashville, and even
though it's a it's a ghost town down here, I
live in a building, you know, an apartment building. So, um,
I've been I'm still taking my dog out. I meanfortunately,
I do have the company of the dog, which is great.
And my dad is my next door neighbor. Um. And
so I'm I'm regularly with my with my dad. You know,

he's in and out of my apartment. In my apartment,
I'm in and out of his apartment. UM. So we're
not completely isolated in that regard. And of course I
see I see neighbors in the building when i'm you know,
taking the dog out. Um. Of course, become a little
more odd with your neighbors because you kind of don't
want to share an elevator with them. Um, you know, Um,

But sometimes somebody just pops in the elevator and there
you go with your T shirt. Not that it's gonna
do anything, but you know, it's just an instinct, you
know what I mean. Well, let's just you know, I'm
smelling the day kind of move puts your face and
your T shirt. Um. But you know, but fundamentally, the
the interactions that you're having with people have been just there.

They're so unnatural, you know, the interaction is so it's
so unnatural. Um. And this whole thing just feels completely
for me, it just feels completely unnatural. You know. I'm
I'm from the social um art. I play music for people,
you know what I mean. It's like I grew up

in barrooms, you know, playing in literally in barrooms since
I was like a kid, you know, since I was
like fifteen, I've got in the barrooms and that's my
that's my day to day life, you know, since forever,
you know, through high school, I've been playing in bar
so so not being able to do do that and
have that exchange is so unusual. Um. When I played

at the house, yeah, I love playing at the house.
But you know it's it's just, uh, you're used. I'm
used to playing something and then going and playing it
for people because I'm proud of it. You know, he
checked this out right, this is cool, you want to
go play it for people? But what do you think?
And yeah, you want? Yeah, exactly exactly. So so it's
such an unnatural it's such a natural moment because people,

by nature, we're supposed to gather and now we can't,
you know. But but but it's interesting because you you
you're thriving in it, and I think some people are
thriving in it. Um. Some people just love the alone time.
I really do love the alone time as well. But
I missed at least when I do go up go
out to see society, I want to watch it actually

function like it like should you know what I mean?
So so I'm doing okay with it. I'm doing good
with it. You're doing you're doing with it. We also
have looser and engineer Tory on with us, and we
were talking before and and t is really in one.
She's struggle with how you doing, Tori. I'm like really
struggling with it. I'm the most extrovert possible. I don't

need any alone time like Brooks, Like I get that, Gavin,
You're in Nashville, like where you're from. But I could
never imagine myself doing what Brooks did it and just
like up and leaving l A and just going to
Idaho because that's just like so isolating and already and
isolating time. Like I kind of want to know more Brooks,
like why did you choose to get up from l
A where at least you can look out and see

people walking, to go to Idaho where it is very
isolating and all you can really do is like virtually
talk to people, you know. Yeah, well, I always wanted
to spend more time here. I bought this place and
I've never spent enough time here come here like a
week a year, and it's my dream property. Um, so one,
I wanted to spend more time here to the place

needed an overhaul. It really needed a cleaning, you know,
escaping and a cleaning. It got overgrown. It's kind of
in the bush, right We're right on the water, but
it's kind of in the bush in Idaho, And so
I've really been able to man manicure it and landscape.
And three, um, just my dog with my dog, like, uh,
we have a yard and stuff in l A and

we go for trail runs and stuff. But here we're
just out. He's outside all day long. UM on the
water her. I can fish any day. UM. I have
a body that I can go hunting with. Um he hunts,
is going to go and just track along with him
and hunt and um. So there's just there's lots to do. Um.

And I just I love being up here. I've never
spent enough time here, so I'm doing okay with it
and like, but I've always been that, even when I
was younger. You know, when I was a young kid,
I didn't need to be around friends all the time.
I liked it. I had great friends, still have great
friends to this day. But there's a part of me
that enjoys isolation, and there's a part of me that
actually gets drained when I'm around too many people. Right,

So yeah, I can I can identify with with with
a lot of that stuff. Man, be honest with you.
I mean, I I think if I was in the
in the position that you were in where there was
like a country house to go to, yah, I would
be just loving it. Like right now, I'm kicking myself.
We were looking at a farm last year and I

almost bought this farm, and I'm so pissed now that
I did not buy this farm because I would love
to be out there right now on a river at
the farm, you know what I mean, and have your
everything you need. You can be completely self sufficient. You
can garden, you can hunt off the land, you can

already have your cattles there, your chickens, etcetera. You can
you can be in an environment where you're not really
quite as affected by all the things that are happening,
because the land itself will make you busy and it
will provide, you know, if you're working with it, and
you can keep yourself busy enough in that regard where

you you can't have a great day outside doing what
you do with with the property. See what do you go?
I'm so a jelly Yeah, sorry, Like, what is what
has been the hardest part for you? And actually we
have a guest coming on today that's really going to
help you because this guy was in isolated and self
isolation for two hundred sixty days, so you can ask

him your question, what has been like the single hardest
thing for you in this time? Um, I'm one of
the really lucky ones who is continuing to work during
this time. But I think it's a little bit hard
feeling like I'm almost in survival of just working to
live and living to work versus feeling like I'm able

to really be in tune with like like my friends
my community. And also there's just like a lot of
guilt that I feel and almost working because a lot
of my friends are furloughed or laid often this time
because we are I'm twenty five, so my age group
is kind of the one that's the low hanging fruit
where they're just kind of chop that one off. Um
So sometimes that's like a lot of guilt and like

sadness and hurt that I've had to like feel with
a lot of my other friends, like weirdly makes me
emotional right now. Um So, like that just been really
hard because it's like you can't really be there physically
for anyone. And that's like my leveling, which is like
to really be physically there with people in hug or
like can I but you dinner? Or can I do anything?
And yeah, you can do that in your own certain
way during isolation. But it's just been really sad, I

think for a little bit of my age group, just
a lot of people already struggling with their identity and
then being in isolation because I live in l A
and that's a lot of apartments, so everyone's just kind
of living in apartments um or they're going back to
their families, and then that's always a hard adjustment to
feel like you've been on your own and making a
living and then you're going back home to your family

where they're like where are you going, like almost like
a curfew again and having chores and you're like, oh,
this is It's just a it's a really conflicting feeling.
And I think that a lot of again my age
groups have been kind of experiencing that where it kind
of feeds a lot of like insecurity during this time,
rather than being like I'm going to take advantage of it.
It's just it's a lot of you know, like a

little things that really feed into how I'm feeling. And
I'm such an extrovert that for me, I'm like, I'm
just struggling in this time. Some people, like you have
an there's there's things called energetic blueprints, and some people
get energized by being around people you know, and you're
you're a person that gets fed energy by being around

people gave. I think you two you are as well.
I think he certainly is. Um. I think like our
producer Danielle and I are probably more similar. Is where
if we're around too many people that can drain energy
from us and we'll actually get large, we'll get more
energy when we're by ourselves. Um. So for me, I've

had a ton of energy. Um. But I will say
it is nice too. It's nice when I see my
neighbors walk their dog and we'll stop and have a
chat or something like that. Right. But yeah, I do
miss like, as you said, Tori, the friendships and uh
companionships and stuff like that, where where you do get
to hug somebody and be in the same room and

um even doing these calls, like I'd rather be in
the room with you guys doing this podcast. That's one
of my favorite things is coming into the studio in
l A and ripping the podcast versus jumping on a
zoom call like this. So, so thank you we have Gavin.
We have a guest coming on. So Gavi, you known't
you pe no idea what's going on to you? No?

I did not, So so to help you out here, buddy,
we have a guest. His name is Ethan's on and
he won the third season of Survivor Africa. So two one,
he won the third season of Survivor UM and since

then his story is incredible. I mean, if you, if you,
if I've followed Ethan or no Ethan, you'll know his story.
But if you haven't, his story is absolutely incredible. UM.
And I'll wait till he gets on to kind of
try and tee it up a little bit. But UM,
he's to give you the synopsis. He's beat cancer twice

since two thousand and one, and he's had too in
his recovery of cancer, had to do social distancing and
self isolation for up to two d and sixty days
at one. Wow. So we're gonna get Ethan's story to
help you, Tory, to help you, to help you, Gavin,

to help all of our listeners, for the people that
are really struggling during this time. UM. Ethan has some
tips on how to thrive, how to survive UM. He
calls it is isolation survival Guide, UM, how to survive
it during isolation. So I can't wait to have this
is gonna be wonderful. It's gonna serve our community and

help help my two friends right here on this call
back from Brick. This is how men think. My name
is Brooks like and joining us. We have them. Here
is the man, the myth, the legend. We have Mr

Mr Ethan zon on with us. Ethan, what's up, my man?
What's up? How are you guys doing? Thanks for having me? Dude.
You look fresh, you look clean, you look you look
like you're thriving during this time. Umbly showered this week
to be mentous occasion. You guys should be honored that

I actually showered this week. That I've just been jumping
in the lake here, I haven't even been showering. Um,
but I Ethan like following you and reading up on you,
and I appreciate you coming on. Your story is incredible
and this this time right now probably seems like a
cake walk to you having been through what you've been through. UM.

I read your bio earlier. Most people would know you
from winning Survivor in two thousand and one Survivor Africa.
But really what's remarkable, absolutely incredible and remarkable about you
and about your story is since that time, you've overcome
cancer not once but twice, and you've had um self

isolation for up to two hundred and sixty days. Yeah, yeah,
so can you take us back to that one? I
just command you. I can't imagine what it would be like.
Let's even start with that, Like, what is it like
when you first hear this bad news that you have cancer?
Like what is I can't even put myself there mentally

and emotionally what that must feel like. So the world's
going through a lot of adversity right now. Adversity is
new to a lot of people. Like what was that
adversity like to you? It was quite a life altering moment,
as you can imagine. I was thirty five years old,
on top of the world, you know, happy healthy, young

guy training for the New York City Marathon. Like, yeah,
in one of these times, you never think it could
possibly be you. But I said, like really, skin and
debilitatingly itchy, to the point where I couldn't even wear clothes.
So I'm like, all right, something's going on. I try
to be pill cream, potion, lotion known to man. And
it wasn't until like a swollen lymph node popped that

in my neck and they found a six centimeter by
twelveth century mass in my chest that I was diagnosed
with a rare form of blood cancer called c D
twenty positive hodgkinsling foma. Trucks Band never heard of it
either at the time. Um, but you know, at that moment,
you're just like, it was such a weird time in
my life because all my other friends were just starting

their life, you know, like getting married and having good
jobs and you know, starting you know, creating uh families,
and for me, I had to press pause in my
life and that was really difficult for me. And uh,
you know, I went through multiprounds of chemotherapy radiation at
a stem cell transplant, which was all good because the
doctors thought they got the disease under control. But then

twenty months later the cancer came back, and that for
me was the hardest part. You know, like people say,
when you go through cancer, you know you're an inspiration.
This is awesome, But like when it's doctor tells you
to do something you'll die, you pretty much do it.
There's really no choice. And as a patient, it's really
hard to like articulate what it feels like to be

seriously ill, you know, like it pays more positive outlook,
but when everyone tries multiples appealingly. You that don't work,
you panic, you freak out, like I pretty survived. I
just want to die. I didn't want to die. That
was what was going on in life. So it was
it was literally a survival for you. It wasn't about like,
like what there's my opportunities in life? What am I
working on? It was literally like I want to survive

today to get to tomorrow. Definitely, and lucky for me, um,
you know, I got on an experimental new drug. Less
than two hundred people in the world were on this drug,
and I got on this drug. It got me into
remission as it well, it's gone a second stem cell transplant,
this time using my brother or Lee as the donor,
and now I'm seven years in remission. I'm doing okay,

and everything's fine for you, buddy, thank you. But when
we're talking about this kind of what's happening in the
world today and this isolation after each transplant, I was
in isolation for about a hundred and twenty days. That's
where I got to the two sixty plus my three
times on Survivor and complete isolation as well. So I
think I have a little bit of experience surviving, you know,
moments like this, and for me, it was really a

big part of this was acceptance. You know. It was
the acceptance that the fact that I was in this
current situation, it's gonna be, it's happening to me. It's
gonna last for a little bit, um, but there is
a beginning, there's a middle, and there's an end um.
And so for me to accept the fact that I
was sick and I was gonna be going through this,
I needed to get through that moment because then I

could start the next phase of my life was mapping
out how to stay alive. And people talk about what's
going on in the world today. You know, we're in
a pandemic. It's a global catastrophe. You know, the legacy
of where this pandemic is going to be with us
for for years. And like the first step to any
change you really can't control is acceptance and how you
guys feel about that. But with all this uncertainty in

the world, the uncertainty breeds anxiety, and anxiety causes us
to make some maybe destructive decisions. Right now, right yeah,
I agree with that. Um. I think the people that
really struggle with it are the ones that haven't accepted
it that a life has changed, and it's changed for
a while here, Like there's discussions, Uh, it's April one

as we record this UM, there's discussions that it's going
to be beginning of June, possibly before before most of
the US is is opened up again. So we're looking
at still another seven weeks, you know. So if you
can't accept that you're fighting for something that has already
passed and that you can't possibly change, and that's debilitating.

I think a lot of people, and so the people
that have accepted it have found opportunity and have found
ways to thrive in this. Definitely kudos to you. I mean,
I think it's interest in to to acknowledge that even
when they do say okay, you know, the country's opened,
Canada's open, the world is open. Like it's not like

you just snap back into the life that once was.
Like I'll give it an example, just because we're talking
about cancer. But once they said okay, Ethan, you're in remission,
go home from the hospital. It wasn't like I could
just snap back into fitness. Like I was different. My
friends were different, the way interacted with the world is different.
I was still living in a lifestyle. So even after
it's okay, the world is going to be different and

the way we move as humans and interact as people
is going to be different. And so I think like
the denial of this acceptance. You know, you can only
reimagine yourself in a in a different reality if you
can accept what's going on right now. And I think
it's important to note. Can you talk a little bit
about you said twice you went into isolation for a

hundred and twenty days? Um, can you talk about how
isolated you were, what was your atmosphere, you're scenario, where
were you staying at the time, what was your human contact? Like?
Can you give us those kind of conditions, UM, so
we can have more of an understanding of what you've
went through. Sure. So the first part of the process
was the stem cell transplant. That's when I was in

like a hyper stero bubble inside the hospital for about
thirty five days. And that's when they kind of it's
like pressing reset on your on your body. You know,
they remove all the white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets,
They bring you down to zero, get you close to death.
Then they reinfuse you with healthy stem cells that were
supposed to kind of um, you know, into your bone

marrow and those reproduced as healthy stem cells to kind
of kill the cancers in your body. So after each
one of those, you're so immuno compromised that you really
can't be in crowded places. No public restaurants, no stadiums,
no subways, no taxis, no restaurants, no large groups. I'm
in a mask and a glove all times outside of
my own uh, outside of the hospital room. And then

when I got launched to go back into my home,
same situation, a little less intense, but no fresh vegetables
because they have germs. You know. Everyone had to wash
their hands and wear mask and gloves when they're coming
inside the house to visit with me. Cleaning is very stringent.
So it's just like a really and then once those
hundred days were open, and then it was years of
living a socially isolated life because I just couldn't be

in those situations. No travel, you know, none of that
again back into the stadiums. No stadiums, in large groups.
So it was just an interesting way to you had
to change your life style in a major way. Um,
and it took a little bit while to adapt to
that and accept that. And I feel I learned a
lot on how to survive these isolated situations in the

term of like how to structure day, how to work
out in small spaces. You know, how to communicate with
friends and family when you can't physically be in touch
with them. So all those skills I feel like learned
while I was going through this and can be applied
to what's going on today in today's world. So yeah,
let's let's keep going with that, because I wanted the
point of doing this. Podcasts try and serve our community,

serve our listeners. And you've developed through these two times,
You've developed what you call your isolation survival guy. So
for our listeners like one, I'm wondering during that time
because I think the first thing, the most important thing is,
is like you're a person's spirit and how how does that?
How are they doing psychologically, mentally and emostly? How are

you doing? How is your spirit? Um here I'm reading
about you said you never lose optimism, spirit or humor
despite extraordinary rigors and setbacks. So can you explain how
you did that and explain the importance of that, and
then we'll get into more of your isolation survival guy. Yeah,
how do I remain you know, positive in those moments? Yeah? Yeah.

And this is one of the things that I talked
about often, is I firmly believe that even in the
middle of my own nightmare, my own crisis, you know,
trying to help others in that moment really helped me
heal as a human being. And you know, I live
by the saying these days, you know, never let a
crisis go to waste, because it's an opportunity to do

some really important things and a cliche, but I I
it resonated with me, and so here I was, and
you know, all of us here are in the public eye,
we know what that's like. So I really felt there
was an opportunity to share my story, to let people
know the details of my life because maybe that can
help them. And while I tried to rewrite my story

and survive in this situation, in that same moment, I
was helping others rewrite theirs. And so I found a
sense and purpose in my own crisis and sickness because
I knew that I was using that to help other
people get them diagnosed earlier, help them manage their cancer.
Care or give a speech or an interview or anything
that I could do in my power to share my

story to help other people. And for me, that kept
me a little bit uplifted and helped give a positive
environment and where I was, Yeah, I love that I have. Actually,
one of my best friends has out with depression and
anxiety for years, and he really has been motivated to
do something to serve with that because he's been through it.

He wants to serve and help others. He doesn't want
anybody to go through what he's gone through, and he's
learned some things that have helped him ease his depression
and anxiety. And I was talking to him, I was like,
the fact that you've been through this, that's your superpower.
You know. Like people people when they go through something,
they might feel it's a negative or or it's a
crisis or something. But that experience that you have of

going through something traumatic actually becomes a superpower when you
use it, when you use that uniqueness to serve others,
you know. And so I love that you did that
and that in turn served you. That brought you energy
and life and served you and help you get back
on your feet. So then you develop this isolation survival guide.

You need to teach My buddy gave there because he's
kind of a city slicker this um, But can you
tell us more about the isolation Survival Guide and share
it with our so they can take some of this
and put it into action in their life. Sure, yeah,
I mean this are these are you know, I'm not

gonna say this is scientifically proven information, but this is
literally the things that I did. You know, I kind
of looked back at my time going through cancer and
after cancer, my time on Survivor that the television show,
and just kind of kind of wrote down what I
felt was the most helpful skills that I used in
isolation to get me through the dark moments. And those

are you know, a couple of things I just spoke about. Acceptance, um,
you know, service over self, you know, helping others in
the middle of your own crisis. You know, one of
the things that was really helpful for me is, like
you mentioned your buddy, who's got anxiety. When I the
second time after cancer, I struggled significantly with anxiety and

just the fear of relapse, the uncertainty, the invisible scars
that needed healing. It's just and I what happened was
I got just totally obsessed with these what if scenarios,
like what if the cancer comes back? What if I die?
What if I can't have kids? What if I can't
get married, but if I can't find a job, like
and then I just started ruminating all the on these

horrible what if scenarios. My entire day was taken up
with processing situations that may or may not happen in
my life, and I was just stuck. Yeah, yeah, and
so what I've a skill that you know, especially now
with people like we don't know how long this thing's
gonna last. Like you, it's very difficult to plan your

life when you don't know how long this pandemic is
gonna laugh, or what the ripple effect is going to be.
So I think, you know, in a world where as
humans we like to control things. We got the Netflix,
your deliveries, your schools are in the schedule, you got
your yoga in structure, everything structured and planned, and now
it's not right, and so all this kind of uncertainty
breathe anxiety, and so you get I started ruminating on

these what if scenarios. So basically what I learned to
do is I basically would take a what if scenario
and let's role play here, what if I get the virus?
The horrible situation. Let your mind go there, like go
deep into like what would happen if I got the virus.
It's a little bit scary, and if you go too deep,
you know, snap yourself out of it. But once you

go there and you let yourself uh kind of understand
what that would be like, the next step would be
to take a piece of paper. I wrote down the
what if scenario, and then I literally mapped out a
plan of exactly what I would do if that would
if scenario happened. So I'd have to go to the
doctor and get tested. I'd have to isolate from my wife.
I would call my mom, X, Y, and Z. And

then all of a sudden, next time I started ruminating
on that scary thought, I said, I already wrote it down.
I know exactly what I'm gonna do. I planned it out,
refer to this thing, and then I can move on
with my day and I could let it go and
sometimes reference this two, three, four, or five six times
a day. I have boxes full of like post it
notes in what if scenarios that I'm like looking through

and that's scary situations in my life. But for me,
it really helped to out the plan of action. And
that's really just what you're doing. And that got out
of the anxiety and unt of the out of those
loops in my head. So bringing a voice to it,
and I voice he wrote it on paper, but bringing
a voice to it sort of lessened the fear of

this thing that was in your mind on like psychologically
weighing on you and causing you anxiety and consuming you
almost to a debility, tobilitating point exactly. You know, okay,
you could go out, you know, you could go out
tomorrow get hit by a car. But if you spent
every second of every day thinking about the idea that
you might get hit by a car, you missed the

whole day. And I was just sick of losing days.
And that's and I just I couldn't do deal with
it anymore. And uh, emotionally it was affecting me as
have an issues with my friends and family, my wife,
and I just had to get out of it. And
that's one of the skills that I did to get
out of those situations. Wow, Okay, great. So what if
plan out your It's almost like an escape plan. Yeah it. Um,

you've talked about service over self. Um, focusing on the
plate of others helps you heal. So, UM, what ways
do you think people could do that now? What? What
ways were you able to do it when you were
self isolating in your recovery from the cancer treatments? What
ways do you think people can do that now if
they're struggling to find service for others in their life

right now? I mean, the first and easiest thing to
do is like stay at home, you know, if stay
isolated in the sense that I mean when I was sick.
You know, I see these empty streets, these closed stores,
the school's not in session, and I'm like, this to
me is beautiful. This is an act of love. This
is the world coming together to protect the vulnar old

people and the health workers. Like so for me, I
see that as a blessing. I would have loved to
have no one on the streets when I was sick
and be able to walk and function without the fear
of getting sick. But so that's a really simple thing
to do and stay home. But you don't have to
do something huge en have to start a charity. You
don't have to do anything grant, but it could be
something as simple as you know, calling your grandmother. It

could be sewing masks. It should be helping someone else
in a time of need. Like nothing creates comfort and
confidence more than knowing you're not facing the life challenge alone.
And I think one interesting thing about what's going on
now versus cancer. When you go through cancer, it's a
really individual thing. No one will know what that experience
is like unless you go through it, and it's different

for each person. Right now, we're all going through the
same thing at the same exact time. So when you
feel alone, devastatingly alone, you can reach out to someone
that's going through the same thing and you can connect
and you can talk kind of help each other through
these tough moments. And so service overself or being part
of the community, those two things kind of go hand

in hand. And um, you know those are some some ideas.
Call a friend, drop off balloons at a hospital, send
food to some people, make some masks. They're stony, wonderful
and incredible things that people can do it right now
to make a valuable contribution to the community. You know
what I've been doing tell me, not saving, not shaving,
but then also filming myself doing my favorite Gavin Degrass songs.

I've been, I've been songs and sending them to Gavin.
I mean, you share an example with me right now, please.
I sang one of his songs one time on our show,
is like our fourth or fifth show, and he didn't
even know what it was. I was like, that bad.

You don't even recognize your own song? It was that bad? Ah? Um,
what else I love that I love? Like Gah was
taking care of his dad out here where I'm at
my lake house and idah here, I have a couple
of neighbors that are in their seventies that I've been

getting stuff from Costco from or for them and stuff
like that. And it does, man, It's so true. It
brings you life just simple, and it could be so small.
It can be something very small, but it is so
rewarding to help somebody, um, especially at any time, but
especially in a time when they need it, when you
can actually see that, like, yeah, I can't imagine what

it's like right now, Like your dad has some underlying
health issues and being able to take care of your
dad like it's got to be just a a joy.
You know, it's kind of scary, but it's got to
be also just you know, it is it's an honor,
but it's also you know, it's funny because my dad's
seventy one, he's you know, he had he had heart

surgery and had some strokes and stuff like that. But
even with all this stuff going on right now, um,
even even with the things that are going on right
right now with him, um, he wants to get out
into the world, you know what I mean. And you know,
you know, granted, he knows that there's that there's you know,

health risk, but part of my father's perspective is that
this isn't really living. There's a big debate, there's protests
about that right now. Yeah, and and and and for
good reason, because you know a lot of people who
are who are older, they want to be able to
go see their friends, see their family, hangout, get back
to their life too. And you know, if you do

have underlying health risks, there's also no there's no guarantee
you're not going to get the flu, there's no guarantee
you're not going to have a heart attack, and in
that time, where you were told to stay home. That
was time that you could have been out kind of
enjoying whatever time you have to go hang with your
friends or your family or do these things that you love.

Because I know we're all trying to make plans to predict, um,
not predict, but to avoid certain health problems. But you
can make all the plans you want and still suffer
those same problems or some other problems in the interim
and feel like, well, damn, that was like I could
have had a good month at least, you know. Um. So,

so there there is a debate about that stuff. And
I do actually agree with with what Ethan said. I
do think and and and also your same Brooks in
that it is an act of love on behalf of
people who are healthy to stay and they're trying to
do what they can't write. We're all trying to do
what we can um at the same time. At the

same time, what will be what will the long term,
potentially long term effects of this short term procedure that
we're that we're committing ourselves to. What will those effects be?
Because I continue to tell you very quite candidly, on
an ecademic economic level, at poor countries are less safe,

so on every level. So what you know, if we
are to destroy our economy in the process of avoiding
what what is happening or minimizing the the the immediate
health health crisis, we may we may I'm not saying
we will, but depending on how much long of this

keeps up, we may create a much larger health crisis
based on an economy that's tanked and and something there.
You're then balancing whatever virus comes next year because we're broke,
And what are you gonna do next year? So? Um,
you know, and when you do this every are you
going to do this every year? You know? Where people

get wiped out every year? I mean, at the end
of the day, there really is only so much money.
That's the fact, and and and and and even guys
like me and guys like you can run out of
money if the economy is whacked out enough. Um. And
that's and and and and and that's people who have

done very well for themselves. What about what what about
the people? And I'll tell you there's probably not a
not a hotel or a restaurant in the whole country
that doesn't employ X con Right, So when you close
every restaurant and every hotel down, all these guys who
just got out of jail, who've been out of jail,

trying to get their lives together. You shut the door
on them or in the living you think, you think
a bunch of guys who just got out of prison,
got a pantry full of stocks food just in case
they lose their job and saving it for a rainy day.
They're already, they are already trying to to just survive
day to day. You just shut We just shut the

doors on all of their their way of well being.
We're saying we're saving some people, but what are we
doing to those guys too? I mean there to leave
a lot of Devil's advocate advocacy I could I could
throw at this this combo and they're all important. They're
all important. Um you know, so what kind of maybe

crimes might somebody commit to? Go? Well, I'm at of food.
I tried to go on the straight and narrow. Now
I don't. I don't have anything to eat for the
next Who knows when I don't have a government check
coming in because I'm making a living, And when when
does that come through for a guy like that? And
what's gonna happen. Well, somebody's gonna be breaking into somebody's home,

so or somebody's business. You know. We got robbed twice
in the first week of this shutdown, you know. Yeah,
so yeah, so well we got broken into two times
within you know, within like three days, you know. So,
so that's just the what's what what can happen or
what is happening? And that's just only one little window

into in my life, you know, um and And And
there's much people, way worse off than me. Um And
So that's what I really worry about is is that
next phase. I think that's the thing that's really worrying me,
is if we don't get people to start getting back

to some form of of of work and regularity and
get the economy moving, I think that the virus will
be the least of our problems. I really do, um
and And I don't want to find out what that is.
I feel like we're poking out of bear right now.
Was a monologue right there? Go? Sorry man, No, no,

because I think it's totally valid what both of you
guys are saying. I really think it's it's all really
valuable because is this other unknown. You know, there's already
drugs that work. There's already drugs that are working on
with people who have the coronavirus. And you know, and
you know, we're being told the much to act like

those things don't exist, but they already do. They're they're
already operating at like efficacy in the nineties percentile or
even higher. So you know, we're acting like the like
they don't. Not we are. It's not that we are,
but some people are. And I'm like, well, there there
is a solution for this stuff. Sure, we are protecting

the first responders, agreed um, and the people who are vulnerable,
agreed um. But we really need do need this plan
to get things up and running, because this is just
so unnatural. It truly is so unnatural, you know, and
it's it's scary in that regard. Yeah, not to be

able to go to a concert ever again, can't go
to a basketball game ever again, to watch a high
school basketball game. I mean, it's like, you know what
I mean, It's like I can't go to a literal
league game, sit on the bleachers, you know what I mean.
Was struggling with acceptance, yeah, a little bit, a little bit, Yeah, No,

I'm not struggling with acceptance. I'm cool with it. In fact,
I'm almost a little too cool with it because I'm
a gambler at life. So you know, I I believe
in and and lots of different levels of Darwinism. A
lot of people don't believe in it to the same
degree that I that I do, but I am a humanitarian.

I only say this because there's ways to help people
who do get sick. We have, you know, it's not
like there is no version of getting better. That's my point.
And um, I'm not saying let the week fall by
the wayside. That's not what I'm saying either. There are
treatments already. So um, I'm saying we need to get
our ass moving on getting the economy up and running

because this virus will kill less people than they broke.
Gas economy where people are starving or desperate desperation is scary. Okay,
before we get there, though, we want to help people
that are like we're gonna be in this for a while.
So back to the isolation survival guide. Um, the next
one you have, Ethan is check it off the list?

Are you a list? Guy? Like? It says, make a
list check it off, UM tell us about how that
can help people while they're isolated. Now, yeah, I'm a
list guy, and I wasn't always a list guy. But
when you're locked in a you know, one room for
extended period of time or my six forty square foot
apartment and you can't leave for months, you gotta figure

out how you can be you know, I just felt
very unproductive, and I had imagined some folks today might
be feeling a little just blah unproductive. Maybe you got
an extra committing to work anymore, you got an extra
two hours to do stuff, and you just you know,
might not be able to structure a day. And for me,
when I was down and out, like the thought of
all the things I wanted to accomplish the ship, necessarially

wasn't able to um, you know, working out and uh,
you know, calling my friends and doing all enormous it
was overwhelming, and I didn't necessarily want to sit down
and work out for an hour. So I would split
that up into like, you know, six five minute sessions
along the lines. But basically what I do is I
wake up in the day and I literally it kind
of goes back a little bit to this what if scenario.

But I map out a plan for my day and
it seems pretty commonplace, but I would literally map it
out by the minute, you know, wake up through my
emails and you do ten minutes of body weight exercises,
call my mom, check it with my girlfriend. Everything you
would do and then it might see and I check
it off as I went along. But the beauty of
this situation was at the end of the day, I

would look back and I could see every single thing
that I did, and it just had that It gave
you this me, either whether it was real or false,
sense of productivity, and it really helped me feel like
I was doing something during a really sick, boring, bad day.
And you know it comes from I think my time
being an athlete. You know, I always I always felt that,

you know, after you know, a yoga session or visualization
training or meditation or like a massage or like the
things that I was doing to help my body, mind
and spirit be in line with each other during my
athletic career. I brought that into my isolation career, into
my survival career because when the body, mind and spirit
are working in harmony, you know, I was a much

better athletes, So okay, maybe I can take that into
what I'm going through now. And I really brought all
that so I did. I worked out my physical, mental,
and spiritual fitness PrePost and during cancer, and I still
take care of myself in that way today. And part
of that was mapping out my days like Okay, i'll
meditate for five minutes, like I'll work out for five minutes,
I'll do emails, i'll read the paper, all that stuff,

and it really helped me structure the day. I agree
with that. Even I'm a list guy too. I wouldn't
say I'm a huge list guy, but I agree with
everything you said. And the reason I agree with that
is and something I encourage people a lot is small victories. Yes, yes, yeah,
small big three success breeds success. And a couple of

shows that when we had a former Navy seal on
how men think with us, and he said, we're trying
to we're trying to get we're talking. The conversation was
about getting certainty or control back in an uncertain scenario,
and who better than a Navy seal to speak on it.
And he said the first thing that they're taught is
take action in any uncertain scenario. Whatever it is, take action.

You just have to. And so in this one it
could be making your bed, could be like you're taking
Actually if you write that down on a list, make
my bed, and you get to check that off. Um,
it's a super small victory, but it's a small victory,
and then maybe it's the next one. Maybe it's the
next one, and then all of a sudden, that snowball
starts building and people look back and they've been productive.

As you say, you have an internal reward because you've achieved,
you've been successful at things, and that then starts to
steamroll and build up. So I agree with you. All
small victories can lead to UM lead to a massive
amount of momentum. And the other point I absolutely agree
with you on UM. I'm a big advocate on it.

Gavin is too. But the being physical, working out, having exercise,
moving your body, I think in this time, especially when
we're most people are very stagnant UM, it's essential to
have some sort of homework out UM in a small
space can be like you said, can only be thirty minutes,

but something to get your system going. Can you talk
about why that was so important for you when you
were in isolation. Yeah, and um, it was so important
for me because you know, I grew up as an athlete,
so I almost based my my whole identity was wrapped
around fitness. You know. I'm sure you're you're aware of that.
So like when you go through a health challenge and

that's taken away from you, you know, I felt I
had no control, so uncertainty. So the way I was
able to kind of map myself and make myself feel
like I was up to stuff was working out. And
but yeah, really there's a lot of research showing now
that some of the medicines I was using during chemo
really um helps when you are physically active, and someone

who's physically active going through cancer you're more likely to
survive and to stay on your medical treatment plan. Now
doctors are starting to prescribe exercise in conjunction with everything else,
which is really exciting to see. Right, Um, it was
just really important to me. And you mentioned like if
I don't want to work out for thirty minutes, like
it's overwhelming, Um, you know, I'd break that up into

multiple workouts throughout the day. And you know you were
mentioned about taking action. There's one of my favorite quotes
is to do nothing is also to act, so act
firmly and making things happen and don't just let them
happen to yourself. So, you know, are working out, it
boost your endorphins, there's a you know, obviously it's good
physical fitness, it's good for anyone. It's uh, you know,

trying through over history, um, and that there's no difference here.
And it just took my mind out of the reality
of what was going on in my current situation. It
was just a cathartic distraction of the fact that I
has gone through this horrible situation, and that really helped
me remain present at that moment. I also find myself
in like I'm in my best state after I work

during working out, and after working out. After I'm I
worked out, I'm my most creative or even during it,
like I have a huge whiteboard in my gym, and
when I'm working out in my oh wow, like just
downloads and ideas and concepts come to me while I'm
in the while I'm not even focusing on that. Um,
just because I'm active, my energy system is alive. UM.

I find I'm grateful self after like I'm my gratitude
is an immense and through the roof after I've worked
out my most creative self. Um, I'm a huge advocate
Gavan's this. I'm a huge advocate of of wellness and
health and fitness and how moving your body, um just
elevates the quality of your life. So a grou with

you completely on that, Yeah, movement makes it makes me
feel alive. Like when I'm able to work out, I
feel like I'm alive. I'm a living human being that
was at that time. Um, it makes you feel creative.
That's another one of the things that my God is
being creative. And you know, you know, working out you
know spark some you know, new thoughts in your mind.

You know the same with me as well. That's a
place where I think and create. But if that's not
your method of creativity, I encourage everyone to try to
find something a little bit creative in your life. Learn
a new skill, because you know these it's a way
to spark the brain in a way it might not be.
You know, working Um it once you can distract you

from maybe what's going on right now, and you don't
have to go out and like learn some crazy you know,
be a famous artist or learn to play guitar and
being a band. But but are you know, play hockey
like these but still just to be creative, sparking mind
in a different way. Like when I was going through cancer,
you know I would. I did like music therapy, I
did art therapy. You know are saying it out a
freaking drum to Bob Marley. And I was made a

popsicle stick bird feeder, which like all my receipts are
in right now, I don't use it. But the fact
that I was doing it, trying to do something creative,
just it helped me spark my mind. And it's there's
a definite connection between the arts and healing. And if
you look what's going on right now, we're turning to
the arts, the musicians, the actors, the actress is the

artists in these times of crisis, everyone's putting stuff online,
free concerts, comedians. That's what the world's gravitating towards. These
fringe industries and subject matters that are being like cut
from schools, pe and music and art classes. That's what
the world is turning to right now in times of crisis.
So if that's not a perfect example for the work

that you do, buddy, like keep doing it, like we
need people like this in the world because it brings happiness, fativity.
So yeah, I agree at your point, do you think
do you think it's time we should release our duet?
I think so. I think so. I just we need
to we need to fight over who's gonna wear the skirt.

I think she both wear the skirt. I've been, He've been.
We've been doing this show for I don't know about
a year, and I've been begging Gavin for a year.
I heard it. I'm a witness. I heard it here first.
That's a bad idea, not if you're in skirts. That
is a good idea you have here on One of

your other um isolation survival guide tactics is to share
and connect with others. So what ways did you find
were most effective when you were in isolation and even
now in this what ways do you find that are
most effective to share and connect with others you know?
And Gavin, you talked a little bit about taking care

your dad and caregiving is a big part of this,
and part of that for me is the connecting with others.
You know. It's interesting where you know. Often if you're
taking care of someone. The thoughts and feelings that someone
going through crisis is having are the same as the
ones going you know, taking care of them, if that
makes sense. So like heaviness, sadness, anxiety, fear, happiness, Like

my whole family was feeling that, and I was feeling
that we just never talked about it and so and
then the happening is we kind of just there was
this divide. So like, I'm a huge fan of being
open and honest with those around you, erasing all the
kind of you know, toxic relationships in your life because
someone who's going through crisis, you're laser focused on keeping yourself, um,

you know, alive. And so those people who are caregiving
often times, you know, your personal feelings and emotions towards
the person who's sick gets in the way of your
making decision. And like, fear is something that we can't avoid,
um And if you let fear dictate your choice, you
are powerless. So it's until you harness that fear and

use that as a positive to give you strength to
go out and do something as an individual or as
a community, that's when something change happens. So when I'm
connecting with other people like like goes back to like
when you're not alone going through a challenge, it's it's
so comfortable, so comforting, it's I don't know if anyone
can understand that, but so I would literally I would.

I would text people, I would call people. We would
have little um uh conference focus groups. We'd sit around
and just talk about stuff. Men's groups. I was part
of a bunch of different men's group. I did these
things called First Ascent was an outdoor adventure camp for
young adult cancer survivors. We went whitewater rafting and kayaking
and rock climbing with other people who have gone through
a similar situation, and we could talk and cry and laugh,

which for dude, me, like, I don't know, Like I
had trouble with that stuff, to be honest, Like I'm
not the best communicator in the world, and I want
to do everything myself. And it wasn't until I actually
got a little bit vulnerable and asked other people to
help me that things that, like the doors opened up
for me and a lot of my recovery was a

lot smoother, to be honest. Yeah, you know, you know
what's funny is I was on the phone last night
with a buddy of mine and I patched in, uh knows,
two nights ago, I patched in my brother And it
was funny just paying attention to even just phone call wise,

the difference in the energy level when you get three
people talking versus just you know, two people talking, you
know what I mean, Like it added so much having
a third person on the phone call, because you know,
it just it just flowed. It was there was the
dead spots weren't there. It was always somebody had something

to chime in, you know what I mean. And I
thought I hadn't. I hadn't had a three way phone call,
you know, for during the quarantine until until that I
was got we we should do this again, you know
what I mean. So, uh, it's funny how just adding
another personality, another personality. So this is good. This is good.

This is helpful for me. I like hearing the back
and forth. Tory. You have a question. Um, okay, So
I have a question because we had Dr viv on
last week and she's a relationship expert, and I would
like to know you briefly touched on that you have
a girlfriend. Are you guys? Oh you're so sorry? Now,

how are you guys? Handling this. Are you used to
it or are you guys seeing struggles that you've never
experienced before? Um, like, how has this quarantine kind of
changed that aspect for you? Basically, she wants to know
what's going on your personal life. Yeah, thank you everything,
and everyone meets the tips right now. Good thing. I'm

sterile because of cancer, so we're not gonna have a baby.
But you know, early on, so I met my wife
right after my second well she was my girl from
the time, but right after my second stem cell transplant,
so I was incredibly uh weak, vulnerable. I was an
emotional mess, you know, like I was war of the

world's going on inside me. And so we went through
a tough start of our relationship and we made a
choice together to leave New York City moved to the
middle of the woods in New Hampshire. Like I said,
so I feel comfortable in isolation. I don't think I
could do it with anyone other than my wife. But
the fact that, uh, you know, we went through a

tough time early on, and I was like I was
a mess. I was doing some stupid that I was
acting out in horrible ways and it wasn't healthy. But
we had an open and honest conversation of what our
relationship was and where we wanted to go with that.
And I remember I was I was pushing her away
because I'm like, you do not want to get involved

with this, because one I didn't know if I'd be
alive and five years, and I didn't want to bring
I didn't have a job, like, I couldn't have kids,
I didn't have money, Like, you don't want to be
in a relationship with me. You do not want to
take me home to your mom right now. But she
looked at me, She's like, cancer has taken so much
from you, do not let it take this too. Wow. Yeah,

it was at that moment I'm like, all right, I
just I kind of snapped out of it. I got
rid of everything that I wasn't supposed that I was
doing that I shouldn't be doing, and I focused on
my wife and our relationship. So when we moved to
this out of the city here, we are in a
pretty good place. Um, We're okay with being each other
for extended period of times. We have a really open
and honest conversation with our relationship, and she knows everything

about me, good, bad, ugly, healthy, sick. So, um, we're
doing all right right now? Good for you? Thank you?
Oh yeah, it brings a big smile to Tori. I
love it. Question to So do you think Tori should
make her bid because the small victory would help her
right now? I think you need a small victory tory? Yeah,

that damn bad. Sorry what about this question? So? What's
it like being isolated when you're not in a relationship,
you don't have a significant other? Like, is that is?
How does that weigh on you? Like I can't meet
somebody right now. I'm really looking forward to meeting somebody,
but I just can't right now. Like how does that
weigh on a person? Yeah? I am someone who always

says that I am happy single, and I genuinely mean that. Um,
but I have realized in this time that I do
prioritize things. It's made me readjust how I prioritize things
because I love to work. But now that that's kind
of all I'm living for right now, I'm like, oh,
it is really important to separate that time and have

that person in your life, Like that is an important
aspect um. I don't think I'm necessarily lonely for like
one human as I am more just to be with
my friends again and live my life a little bit
back normal. But I will say it has maybe right
now so sorry, yeah even really needed youreaking hearts all
over the world. Yeah, but yeah, so I think for

me it's been just reevaluating this time and saying that
I do need to be putting myself out there more
for when we are in this time, I'm not thinking, oh,
you know, what could have been or what I don't know?
Am I making sense? Yeah? Yeah, I mean are you

not you? But I feel and I obviously I'm not
like single and in the dating world, but in a
weird way, I feel like the dating world is like
it's like a warp speed these days with Tinder and
people just meeting and all this stuff. I almost feel
the according process within a relationship might have been eliminated
with all like you know, technology and social media and

all this stuff. Like there's a false sense of intimacy
with people when you if you text someone for seven
days straight a thousand texts, you kind of feel like
you know them, but you only know them for seven days. Um,
so then when you meet them in person, things that
move a little quicker, especially in like you know, younger
teenagers and uh college kids. So in my mind, I'm
thinking this could be interesting for the whole really getting

to know someone without physically intimate um, And I think
that's could be a blessing. You know, there's this reality show.
I think it's love It. I don't know what it is.
They talked between a wall, right, so they really need
to work on the relationship, learn about each other, and
then become friends and then something more intimate could happen
after that. But I think that could be a silver

lining amongst all this stuff. I could be wrong. I
don't know. Is there like big big frustration Tori that
like because maybe for some of our listeners that really
are at a good place in their life that we're
really looking forward to and the chance to meet somebody, Um,
is there frustration that that's kind of been like taken
away from you? Well, I guess more so where I'm
coming from. As I was talking to someone um this

past like a few months, uh we longer, probably last
since last August, and then it's kind of trailed off
just because my juniorary in February were really big, heavy
work wise, so I kind of put that on the
back burner. And now that I'm in this place where
I like, all I want to do is just talk
to someone, that person is not there, and I should
have prioritized that better in the sense of being like, okay,

like communicate more of Hey, I'm working and I'm really busy,
but that does not mean I'm neglecting you because now
we're not really talking and it's totally fine. Things happen.
But for me, I'm like evaluating that in this time
of being like ah, being still and this time has
made me evaluate to put more of an effort of
communication in my relationships. Oh well, said Toriz. It goes

to like one of the next things, um Ethan in
your isolation survival guy, being present. Yes, we talked about that.
I think that's so important. That's something I've been focusing
more on. I've been focusing on when I do a task,
just do that task. Or when I'm like here, I'm
in my house in Idaho, my like I was by myself.

I don't have the TV on when I eat a meal,
you know, so because I want to be present and
eat this meal and enjoy this meal versus like eating
and watching and being half in something. So something I've
been working on a lot is being present. Can you
speak more to that? Sure, you know, I'm wonderful that
you're focusing on that, but you know, we live in
a state of constant distraction, you know, and hyper stimulation,

and because of that, you know, we're all over so
over stimulized. We're a little desensitized to the world around us.
And like, being present literally just means kind of paying attention.
And I think a lot of times, you know, we
get stuck focusing on the past, which is something you
can't change. You can change the relationship with the past,
but you can't necessarily change what's happened. And then we

look into the future and obviously we know you can't
predict the future. Um, you can have set an intention
for the future and hope something happens, but you have
no control of what's going to happen in the future.
So what that leaves is now the current situation of
what's going on right now and what happens is we've
spent so much time focusing on the class in the future,
we miss what's going on right now. And when someone's

like life just passed me by, well, that's when you
aren't focusing on being present, So like not being present
is really easy, don't you agree? Like not being present
is easy? Like right now we're talking to each other,
but Tori, I don't know where your hands are. I
don't know if you're texting or what's going on or
what you know. Like, but if you said, Okay, I'm
just gonna sit here and listen to this dude right now,

you know that's being present. Um. So when I was,
you know, going through cancer, even on a TV show survivor,
if I got obsessed with what's happening before or what's
gonna happen, I just miss what's going on right now.
And it's been really helpful for me, especially in these
times of uncertainty too. In order to get to the
next day, I just focused on today for this minute.

And when I was sick, it got down to like
minute by minute by minute, like if I can just
get you this minute, I'll be okay. If I can
get through this hour, okay, four hours, and then you
build on that and I could uh start being present,
and uh it enabled me to make clearer decisions in
my life. Sorry, by the way, we'll give you a
pass because I know you just sent the guy a text.

Were inspiring change here, guys trying to got it? Got
it number the greatest thing. Danielle and Amy would just
absolutely love it. That would be the greatest thing. Ever,

how about this one, Ethan, one of your other things.
I'm really curious because I get this in my inbox
every week. Uh cb D company reaching out to me.
In the sports world, it's become UM very much a thing,
especially in the CrossFit world. Athletes are taking it um
for recovery. People say they sleep better with it. Cannabis

and c b D um you have. Your nature is
the world's pharmacy. Can you speak to that a little
bit and just enlighten myself and our listeners on how
it impacted your life. Sure, I'm curious about it about it,
but I'm also shy about it. I'm like, I don't
know enough about it. I was in the same boat,
completely shy. And there's a lot of stigma associated with cannabis,

with CBD, especially in athletics. You know, I grew up
a competitive soccer player. I stayed away from the stuff.
I never tried it. I mean, second semester my senior
college I tried it once. Just to say it is
something crazy, you know. But I was hoping to go
on to play after college, and so I never really
got into it except when I got sick with cancer,
and so I obviously had friends that were participating, and

I read stories about it helps people with cancer. So
and I was crupped. I was taking a lot of
prescription pills that were prescribed like anxiety pills, nog to pills,
sleep pills, pain pills, mood pills, and then in the
mornings that was just to get tonight. Then in the
morning they have to pop in oud all just to
get enough energy to hit the doctor's right. So it
was this vicious cycle. So I was just looking for alternatives.

And you know, cannabis is the plant um, so I
thought that would be a good solution. However, I was
like going to the streets of New York City to
get my product because no doctor would prescribed to me
at the time, and mask gloves bald with chemo talking
to a drug deal that was selling coke and ecstasy
and we too, and I just like it just added

a lot of stress on top of what I was
already going through. And it wasn't it wasn't a good experience.
So then when things came around and started to get
a little bit more medically legal, recreational legal and Canada,
you know countrywide now it's pretty exciting to see. UM.
Then I just kind of became an advocate for it
to you know, um, to help jucate out there's on
safe ways to ingest it and use it, especially if

you're going through cancer and then post cancer. That's when
the CBD really came into play for me because I
mentioned the anxiety I was facing and not being able
to get through those what if scenarios, and I started
taking CBD every day like a multi vitamin, as a tincture.
I don't smoke anything. I put it underneath my tongue. UM.

And for me that just it got rid of like
the clutter in my head, maybe take a like able
to take a deep breath, and I was able to
focus on some other things when before I was just
focusing on like destructive thoughts in my own head. Um.
And just there are a lot of beneficial properties that
you can read about. I don't want to get on
my soapbox, but it's helped me a lot. Um. I

it's from the earth on help me so much that I,
you know, invested in a hemp farm in Vermont so
because I wanted to know what I'm putting inside my body.
So I moved out there. I planted, I harvested, I processed,
I bottled, I did everything from seed to sale, because
if I was going to put this jump inside my body,
I wanted to know what was happening. Right, Coach, and

he's Happy Mountain. It's a farm. I don't know if
you guys are late night infomercial watchers, but this guy
by the name of Anthony Sullivan, he's the oxy clean guy.
He's like, I'my Sullivan and this is oxy clean. So
his daughter was having some genetic disorders or hazargenic disorder
and had horrible epileptic seizures. So he started giving her

CBD and it changed her life, changed his life. And
I'm buddies with him, and he told me he's going
to buy this farm to grow the stuff to put
it in his daughter's body. And I'm like, I want
in on that, because if you're willing to do that
for your daughter, then I want the same stuff that
I can use as well, and just a good experience. Right.
That's awesome. And then the last one that you have.

I've been dying to get to this one because I'm
such a fan of this and UM and the the
way it really positively impacts a person's life is laugh. Yeah,
you have, like it's such a beautiful word. Um, you
have laughter on here as the last one of your
isolation survival guide tactics. Um. Everybody loves to laugh. I

know listeners, everybody, He's like, yeah, obviously laughing, But speak
truly to the importance of laughter, especially during crisis. If
you definitely you know, I mean, I don't need to
tell everyone what it means to laugh. However, you know,
I'm a neurotic Jewish guy that likes to be playfully

negative about, you know, big situation, so I always kind
of took a comedic outlook to, you know, things that
aren't necessarily the greatest things in life. And I found
that was a really good way for me to just
find a common ground amongst people to talk about serious
subjects like I'm going through cancer. I could be dying here,
but if we could laugh about it and we can

poke fun at ourselves, and it really just lightens the mood.
It obviously creates these, Uh, probably some scientific effect in
your body. I don't know the answer for that, but
it just makes you feel better. It lightens the mood,
and there's been There's nothing more important for me than
to laugh with my friends, watch a movie, hang out
with my my family, and just tell old stories of

what you know, life was like when we were young
and laughing. So for me, it's a huge part of
what I do. Read books, dirty joke books that would
get all the time because they just make me laugh,
stupid stuff just because it's It makes you focus away
from what's really going on, and for me it was
really healing. You know. I even did one of those
um I went to Bali when I was sick. After

I sick, I went to Bali and I did some
really crazy um past life regression. I had some like
women spit on me in the basement. I was eating
crazy foods. I went to a healer. But one of
them what they did, the laughing yoga. I don't if
anyone's done laughing yoga, but I've done something like it.
I don't know if it's weird and I'm sounding hippie dippy.

That's not my normal like path in life. But I
wanted to try everything. Why not, Like, you know, I
want to figure out something to help me heal. And
you sit in a room and you you force yourself
to laugh. You feel ridiculous that you're looking around and
everyone because you're just forcing yourself to laugh. But in
the end, it's just like this release and you're you're like,

all right, that was okay, and you're happy you got
You know, you're faking it till you make it. You're
smile and laugh. It was a neat experience. I highly
suggest everyone to put yourself in that uncomfortable situation so
you're forced to grow as you respond to this new
challenge of laughing. Dude, I've done it. I know what
you're talking about. I've done it. And it's like, it's
exactly what you say. You fake it to you to

make it. You're like, what the hell am I like?
Gavin's looking at us like we got three heads. He's
like it is uh. Sometimes you just gotta say what
the hell? You know, like whatever for the next half hour,
me just try this. Who the hell knows what comes
from it but a surrender to the process and maybe
I hate it, but maybe I get something out of it.

But um, but I love like laughter is so important. Yeah,
what's your perspective on laughter and how has that helped you? Like, uh,
when I think about laughter, gap remember when we went
to Tori. Remember when we went to Pebble Beach. You know,
it was like, you know, two months ago, we went
to Pebble Beach and we were there for maybe seventy
two hours and we left. We recorded two or three

shows there and we when we were all leaving, we're like,
we I don't know if we've laughed that hard in
like years, like all week long or all weekend long.
We just laughed, man, and it was just it was
so healing and it was it's also so it kind
of it just takes the pressure off life. You know,

you kind of just your shoulders softened. You kind of
just chill. You know, you see people more clearly, You
see the beauty in people. You're not as nervous about yourself.
For Like, laughter is such a medicine too. And I
also think I also think like at this time, we

have to practice the things that we're fighting for that
we want in our life moving forward. And we've talked
about it on this show, like and I've talked about
it with friends. I'm like, now is not the time
to stop dreaming or stop laughing or stop crating, you know,
like like otherwise, what are we fighting for? Why do
we want to heal this and overcome this virus? To then?

Like those are the things that we're fighting for, you know,
And and laughter is one of them, in music is
one of them. I've also I've also read an amazing
article on how early explorers, the first people to visit
Antarctic I think was nineteen thirteen, nineteen ten or nineteen thirteen,
and they documented how they dealt with the isolation and

laughter and music we're two of the things. And then
cooking was another one because they just had the same
kind of canned food. They would try and find a
way to make it differently, which is a form of
art itself or creativity as you said, your isolation. Um,
but it was it was laughter, and it was music,
and it was some sort of creativity and they did
it with food. And so laughter, man, laughter just heals

my soul. It inspires me. It's why I love doing
the show with Gavin. That's why I love Tor and
aman is because we have so much fun. Like one
I want to do something that serves and impacts our community.
But too I come because it's so much fun to
do these shows. You know right now, guys, I hope
you know that I'm laughing. I'm smiling. Yeah, I guess

the obvious question is what do you make a laughing weed?
Who do I make a laughing weed? I think a
lot of them have that in it, um, but there
are some that um eve voke a more euphoric laughter
in them. Yes. I don't have a name of them,

but I think maybe we should uh talk about it offline.
We can start growing right now what I'm talking about, Ethan.
If you have one, send the something. I want to
see our producer Amy. I have whatever you need, but
I'm not. I mean, um, you can add that part out.
Thanks so much for you. Like look, Ethan, you you

see everything behind me. This is exactly UM. Thank you
for your time, buddy. I want to also bring bring
um allow you to talk about and bring some awareness
uh to grassroots soccer. Can you I love that mission
that you started after you one survivor. Can you tell
us a little bit about what grassroots soccer is and

your mission with that? Sure before surviving the TV show.
Like I said, I played in Africa and our closest
friends got sick with AIDS, UM and so you know
grassroots soccer, you know, we basically the concept is we
trained professional soccer players, professional coaches, and peer leaders in
the community with a curricular we developed on HIV and

AIDS and adolescent health, and then we send them into
the classroom to deliver these health interventions or the soccer
fields of the churches. And you know, what we found
is that it's not only the mess and the message
that we're delivering, it's the messenger the people that are
actually delivering this important information. And we found that you know,
role models helped change the behaviors among boys and girls.

And so that that's the basic concept is we have
a bunch of really fun game based activities that help
disseminate information about making smart choices in life. And that's
you know, sex education, how HIV and age has spread,
female empowerment, female reproductive health. Um, you know, whole the
whole list of things that we do and um yeah,

it's been really successful. Pretty excited about it. Yeah, it's
my passion in life. It's good for you. Um, I
have two more questions. I want to ask you, how
is Survivor, like, just give us the low down and
what it's like truthfully being on the show. It is
I think the one of the most amazing games in

the world. And it is a game because it's something
that really touches on every single part of you as
a human being, mental, physical, social, spiritual, environmental, financial. And
here's a game where you're put in a situation where
you got to make friends with these people, but friendships
based on trust and you can't trust anyone. And then

the way the game works is every person you vote off,
they're the ones that come back and they decide if
they want to vote for you to win the grand
prize of a million bucks. So, like you don't you
only not only have to play this game, you have
to play so where you vote them off in such
a way that they like you enough or respect you
enough that when they come back they want you to
a wit And so it's just a really stressful, fun,

exciting game. Um and it's something that like you know,
as an athlete, I just thrived off those pressure situations
and it's just something I love and uh I played
in two thousand and one in Africa, and I played
in two thousand and four which was the All Stars
and now I'm playing again now which is season forty

w war UM where they asked back twenty the most
popular winners of all time to compete again, not for one,
but for two million dollars um. So if you guys
ever want to are you guys Canadian citizens? Are you
American citizens? Us? US? Alright, well you can play if
you want. I can get you on the show Man. Yeah, yes,

I don't know. Do you want to lose two million dollars? Sure?
What was your first what? What What toy or treat What
did you treat yourself with after you won the million dollars?
What was your like? Oh, I want to get well,
I mean it's not gonna be as because I bought
both my brother's cars. I took my mom aland vacation.

But for me, my it was it's gonna sound weird.
It was those bows noise reduction headphone, noise canceling headphones.
So you can hear get draw more clearing. I wish
I had them on now just wait till our duet
comes out. I don't you really want to catch my voice?

Crisp and clear tried to sing in public myself. Oh god, no,
I love singing, man. I've told Gavin this, Like, if
I could magically acquire I have such a I have
such a respect for artists, people that can play instruments,
but singing, like and dancing and like, I have such
respect for it. If there's one skill in the world

that I could magically acquire, it would probably be to
be able to sing like Sam. I love watching Gap
perform um. You know, just yeah, I just have I'm
a thank you the art. You have a children's book, man,
you also have a children's book, Soccer World South Africa. Yeah,
I think I have it right around here too. It's
uh about kid to get high? What is that? Yeah,

so here's the book right here. But yeah, I wrote
three of the Actually, this is what I did when
I was in isolation. This is my creative outlet. So
I wrote three books. Um, Soccer World South Africa, so
grow Up Mexico and Soccer World Spain. And uh that's
kind of what kept me busy. Right in these books
their activity books for kids, Um, see the world through soccer,
because that's what I did when I was growing up.

That's amazing. So in a time of isolation, your isolation
survival guy. One of it was creativity. You wrote a
children's book in this soccer world South Africa, became the
number one children's book on Amazon dot I did for
a short time. Like that's yeah, incredible, Like it goes
back to what you're referencing early even earlier, like everything

is an opportunity, you know, for those that see it
like this time, like everything is an opportunity. I'm I'm
I can't wait to see what is birth or being
birthed at this moment in time. What's going to come
out in six months or in a year, you know,
like a lot of coronial babies to coronial that I

also want to make, not like yeah, it's it's creative
and everyone is like, um almost like rushing to be
productive and rushing to do something incredible during this time
of prices, which I which I applaud and I think
it's great, but there's also something to be said. It's
okay to just survive something and get through it. That's
okay too, you know. And I feel that because of

the way the world's working and the interconnected if it's everyone,
everyone feels this pressure to be productive and take a
class online and learn and skill. And I'm saying the
same thing to you. I've done it over the past hour.
But it's also okay to just survive and get through
this that you know, Um, So don't have this guilt

of you're not doing enough or or you're being unproductive
or enevery like the skills that I was telling you about.
Those are skills that I used to help me get
through that and it worked out well for me. But
I would have been okay just if I got through
and stayed alive and did nothing. You know, that's okay too.
You need to take care of yourself and what makes
sense for yourself as well. Awesome, brother, man, I love
your mission dude. Um for our listeners who want to

follow more, you get more of what you're doing. Where
can they find you? Where do you hang out most
on social Where can they find you the most? Hang
out most on Instagram? At Ethan's On. I got a website,
Ethan's on dot com and uh yeah, you can always visit.
If you want to explore the CBD world, you can
visit monkush dot com and uh, I got a fifty

off code if I'm allowed to say it's Survivor fifty
type that in uh, anything you want. Wow, that's awesome.
Thanks for giving me nuity man, especially in this time. Um, dude,
you're amazing. I'm rooting for you. I hope Gavin gets
on on Winners of War. I'd love to see you

and Gav go head to head on Season Fortius Survivor
Winners at War. Um, but here's another one of my
last question, So how do you play that game? Like
the word that came to mind because you you need
to kick these people off, but then have them vote
for you. The word that came to mind for me
was like integrity. If you're a human of integrity, like,
they'll see that in you and they'll want to vote

for you. What how do you play that game that
locked that subtle dance between kicking somebody off but also
having them want to side with you. We're not going
to share it because you're competing for another It's not
even filmed, so we're okay with that. But what as
you said, integrity? Like the word integrity, it stems from integral,

and integral means like bringing things together in a positive way.
The opposite of integrity is disintegrity like disintegrate so when
things fall apart. So yes, I made myself a crucial
member of the community out there, crucial to everyone else's survival.
So without me, they would have struggled even more. First
one up in the morning, last to go to bed,
got the food, got the water, supported after a win,

console them after a loss. And I ended up kind
of positioning myself like the assistant coach out there. Everyone
hates the head coach, everyone loves the assistant right. The
head coach complained to me about everyone else, all the
players who could plain to me about the head coach,
and I just filter that information and spit it out
how I wanted it to to get me ahead in
the game. And we're so, what are you gonna do

now that they know that your strategy, I have to
align with you and we're gonna blindside them. And then
you know that's what we're gonna do. There is what
percentage of it is you being able to work your
political angle essentially, you're your human angle versus your the

physical versus political essentially, What which is the percentage of
which I know the way the game is played now
it's more of a strategic mental game. Your physical prowess
doesn't matter as much as it once did way back
in the day, where um so, the game's kind of
shifted a little bit, where like you can't necessarily be

too strong anymore. Before being strong and winning challenges was
an asset. Now it's looked like a negative thing because
people like, why why does it look like a negative thing?
People got soft, right, that's what's going on. People got
a little soft, people got way too soft. Way now, Yeah,
they give them a ruining the game. Yes see, we
need you out there. You're old ruin the game. That's right.

They got to put the competition back in competition? Agree?
When does it When does Winners at War air? So
it's air ring currently? Uh? Where it's on Wednesday nights,
CBS eight pm. I think we're in episode nine or
ten right now. There's thirteen episodes. Um So, yeah, Okay,

my CBS all access passed. You can go binge watch
me for the past year. Last last question for everybody,
and then we'll let you go because there's been a
long one. What's everybody binge watching right now? Whether am I? Well,
we are binge watching. We did Ozarks, we did the
Tiger King. Um I do. I happen to watch some

of the like Project Runway type shows and Top Chef
that you know. That's that's where I watched. Okay, Kevin,
you're like this. There's a new form of The Bachelor
Bachelor that basically they take two single people and then
they make them sing songs together and hopefully they yeah, um, yeah, heart,

listen to your heart, that your heart. Yes, yeah, I watched,
Um yeah, I gotta I got a I got a
phone call for for that. I'll get you on that one.
To be really, I'll get you on it. Did you
really get I'm not up to snuff for something like that.
I don't think, not right now, not right now. I

don't think looking for love and singing to duet together
is what? What what? It's not my version of a
love story, I think, although I think it's a great idea.
Do you find if you are have a singing partner
there's a little bit more of a connection or intimacy
where you could fall in love easier or it's just

it's singing. Is one thing loves another thing and they
don't mix? Um, well, it could be. I mean, it
could be a chemical thing there. But I think in
the age of COVID, you wouldn't be able to sing
to each other anymore because you'd be thinking, I think
I got some of that in my eyes just now,
and uh, maybe we should be doing that. I feel

an infection coming on. It doesn't sound good to singing
a mask, does it, No, man, Thank you so much
for taking the time. UM. Gonna tune in and watch
how Winter at Wars finishes off. UM, And anyway, we
would love to have you back on the show. Anyway
we can support your mission, my friend, please reach out. UM.

Best of luck to you, Thank you for serving our
community and just appreciate your time. Thank you very much,
thank you, Thank you guys for having Thank you. Until
next week, take care of one another, love one another,
and we'll see you back here for another episode of
How Many Things See
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