Ep 58: Redefining Love with Matchmaker Francesca Hogi

This week on If I’m Honest, I sit down with Francesca Hogi, a former-lawyer-turned-matchmaker and love coach. A fellow contestant from Survivor Season 26, which is how we met, Francesca discuses her insights on redefining love and navigating modern dating. She shares how a turning point in her 30s inspired her to leave a life she didn’t love and jump into something new, even without a clear plan. We explore her lifelong fascination with love, her unique approach to matchmaking, and her thoughts on the current dating climate. Francesca also dives into her four dating archetypes (you can take the quiz at francescahogi.com!), her TED Talk on “The Fairytale Industrial Complex,” and why dating apps aren’t having their best moment. She also opines on why parents can sometimes be “better daters,” why women face more disempowering programming around love, and her concerns around AI and dating.

 

Learn more about Francesca at https://francescahogi.com/ and listen to her podcast, Dear Franny here https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-dear-franny-59510007/

You can also follow Francesca on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dearfranny/ and watch her TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/francesca_hogi_true_love_and_the_myth_of_happily_ever_after

 

Learn more about Julia Landauer at https://julialandauer.com/

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of If
I'm Honest with Julia Landauer. This week's guest is Francesca Hogy,
who is a ted speaker, host of the Dear Franny podcast,
and an internationally recognized expert on dating, relationships and human connection.
She's the author of the forthcoming book How to Find
True Love, Unlocked Romantic Flow, and Create Lasting Relationships. She's

(00:25):
been featured in media outlets such as The Today Show,
Marie Claire, The New York Times, Harper's Bazaar, and The
Huffington Post. She works with individuals and teams and is
the founder of the True Love Society, a community for
those seeking deeper self and romantic love. Prior to her
love career, Francesca was a corporate lawyer and competed on
two seasons of the iconic reality show Survivor. And that

(00:46):
is how Francesca and I met. We were both on
season twenty six of Survivor Fans Versus Favorites Caramone Island.
It was a bit of a doozy for both of
us for different reasons, and we'll talk about that both.
My majority of the time talking about love and Francesca's
a romantic. I'm a romantic, and it was really cool
to hear her story of how she went from pursuing
her lawyer career, which is what she was educated in

(01:07):
and what she was trained to do, and her big
aha moment and that journey of self discovery to realize
her new calling, which was helping people find internal love
and external love. We talk about the commodification of love
in our culture and how it's pushed to be scarce
when in reality, love is an abundant resource. And I
go through my results from taking her online dating archetype quiz,

(01:30):
which you can also take on her website, and we
also talk about the dating climate right now. You know,
I found Ben, my husband, on a dating app, and
it was obviously different six years ago than it is now.
But she gives us some really tactful advice for how
to approach the apps and using them as a tool
instead of something that you are hooked on. And all
of this was so much fun. It's incredible to see

(01:52):
how much heart and soul she pours into this and
how much she wants to help people and knows that
everyone has the capacity for really deep, meaningful love. And
I hope that this episode is inspiring for you, and
definitely reach out. I'll link all of her stuff in
the description and let's get into it. Francesca, thank you
so much for joining me on. If I'm honest with

(02:13):
Julia Landauer.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Thank you for having me. Julia, it's good to see you.
It's been years.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
It has been so long. So, as I mentioned in
the intro, Francesca and I met on Survivor, and I
think that the reunion, so that would have been in
twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Twenty thirteen, twenty.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Thirteen, would have been the last time that we saw
each other in a person.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh my goodness, twelve years ago or eleven years, I
don't know even I.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Were a decade and I recently went to my ten
year college reunion, and so that, like, for some reason
that was hitting me, like, how am I old enough
to be ten years out of college? It's wild?

Speaker 2 (02:52):
I mean, I have a birthday in two days, and
I'm like, I am half a century old. Wild.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh you don't look it at all. And it is
wild though in time, and you know, we can get
this a little bit later, but just it almost makes
me sad a little bit, because you, like I want
to appreciate so many of the little things that are
going on, but then you have real world stuff that
you have to deal with, and I don't know, getting
older is just so many you get so many realizations.
I guess, Yeah, it's it's NonStop.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
I love it. I mean, I'm I'm very much embraced aging,
So I'm excited about it. I'm excited about turning fifty.
I'm you know, I know, I know that I'm going
to be really excited to turn sixty one day, you know,
if I hopefully I'll make it. Yeah, you know, but
I think, you know, I think what one you know,

(03:43):
that expression youth is wasted on the young and like,
and when you're young, you hate that expression so much
because you're like, ugh, you old people, like, you know,
like you're the ones who are wasting your lives. Like
I got it all figured out, and I think about
that now, how I'm like, oh wow, like I get
it now. But I think that the world has changed

(04:06):
so much in the way that we live has changed
so much that it's like it just does not mean
the same thing to be fifty in twenty twenty four
that it meant in you know, nineteen seventy four, which
is a year that I was born, right, which was
like fifty year olds in nineteen seventy four were old people.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, no, totally totally, And I think,
you know, everything from you know, discussions around wellness to
staying more active to I don't know, I feel like
people diversify what they do a lot more now than
they did back in the day, and I'm sure that
that plays a part. But but yeah, I was really

(04:44):
excited to be in my thirties, Like I like my
twenties too, and I think because of pursuing racing, Like
I had a very exciting and less stressful in some
ways twenties. But then when I got into my thirties,
I was like, Wow, hopefully I'm going to continue to
give fewer shits because I'm the people pleaser and you know,
I'm fairly confrontational verse. But you just you shed some

(05:06):
of the bullshit basically as you get older, and that's
been really liberating and satisfying.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah. Yeah, oh my gosh. I remember waking up on
my fortieth birthday and I was like, like, I thought
the thirties were hard. I thought the thirties were hard.
I feel for people in their thirties, because I do
think there is like, you know, you can clearly see
how you've grown since your twenties, but you're also still
like I don't feel like an adult.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
It's wild how much I don't feel like an adult,
Like I feel like an eighteen year old.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, exactly. So it's like I feel like like a
teenager playing grown up. I have no idea what I'm
supposed to be doing with my life, Like I feel
like the thirties for me, the thirties were pretty like existential,
and I think when I woke up on my fortieth birthday,
I just felt this sense of relief, like like oh
my god, Like I am like how to fucks to give.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Good?

Speaker 2 (06:04):
And I'm like, oh my god, Like I've wasted a
lot of time being really hung up on a lot
of things that I just suddenly like do. It was
like somebody flipped a switch.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
That's so powerful, though, and it's like cool that it's
that sudden to be able to have such like a
dramatic mindset shift kind.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Of it was dramatic. Yeah, so, and so I got
so excited because I was like, oh my god, if
this is how I feel turning forty, like, imagine what
I'm going to feel like turning fifty. So I've literally
been looking forward to this for ten years.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Oh well, I'm so glad that you're here. I have
the best time celebrating this milestone because that is so
so cool. And we'll pour one out for you tonight,
and please do you bet? So for our listeners, Francesca
and I met on Survivor, as I mentioned, and I think.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
You know we actually met after Survivors, because we didn't
really meet on the show, says after we were voted out.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
Backstory, So for those of you who are not familiar
with Survivor, you start off on tribes and you're the
tribes are isolated from each other except for at the challenges,
and then you merge and then everyone's together. So Frandshire
is gonna have both got voted out before the merge,
so it was we didn't meet on the show. You're
totally right, and I think it's fair to say that
Survivor was a character building experience for both of us

(07:24):
for different reasons. For me, as I got eviscerated by
the eventual winner, John Cochrane on the episode I was
voted out for how boring I was, and that was
the lasting impression minimal airtime. I was probably somewhat standoffish.
I knew that I was being a little more quiet
because of some of my strategy plays, but also I
was like a twenty year old girl basically that was

(07:48):
like first time couldn't trust anyone. So it was it
was a character building experience for me.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
It's young to play that game.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, And I liked hadn't been in a position where
I couldn't trust anyone. And I also I look back now,
I'm like, like, I really would want to play again.
I've applied several times to try to play again, and
then I watch it and I'm like, I'm just not
sure I have it in me to be as deceptive
as you need to be in to be like totally
for yourself in a lot of ways. But I think

(08:16):
I could do thirty something year old Julia would do
a lot better than twenty year old Julia. But I
don't know that I necessarily would be like an iconic
Survivor player even if I could do it again.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I don't know about me,
Like I think, I mean, I fundamentally feel like, I'm
I'm I think there's a universe where I could totally
win Survivor, but I think there are more universes where
I would continue to be the first person voting out.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
So can you explain why, in more detailed Survivor was
character building for you?

Speaker 2 (08:50):
I mean it was character building for me because I
you know, what's the thing that everybody dreads going on
a reality show, like you just I don't want to
be the first person off, Like that's like that's like
the worst thing that can happen, right right, And so
on my first season, that's what happened. And then on

(09:11):
my second season, which is the season that you and
I were on Julia that season, I was like, Oh,
there's no way this is going to happen, because it
was such a fluke it happened the first time, and
this time, like I'm playing with people who I actually
like I knew, like, you know, like Cochran and I
used to be like like close friends, Like we used

(09:33):
to talk on the phone all the time. I was like,
you know, his coach basically, you know, like Andrea and
I like used to be friends, Like she's like spent
the night at my house. You know, like so so
in my mind, I'm like, you know, why wouldn't like
we're friends, Like why like, of course you're going to
align with your friends. But anyway, that didn't happen. So

(09:53):
I got voted out again first, yeah, my second season.
So I mean the good news is you're I'm legendary
for being bad at Survivor, right, Like I'm the biggest
Survivor loser of all time and that's kind of a
badge of honor. But yeah, I mean it's character building

(10:16):
to find yourself in that situation. And I was in
my thirties at the time, and I was like very
much figuring out, Like you know, I was I was
a lawyer because that was my previous career, and I
was like, I don't want to be a lawyer forever.
But I felt really stuck because I just didn't know
what else to do. And so that was the whole

(10:37):
reason that I even went on Survivor, because I was like,
this opportunity presented itself and I'm like, well, you know,
I need to shake things up in my life and like,
so maybe this will be the thing. So I guess
it's a case of like asking what you wish for
being careful, right, like what you wish for, because you
know it shook things up, not in the way, but yeah,

(10:59):
but that's our you know. After that, I was like,
I mean, I was pissed after my first season, but
I was really pissed actually the second.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Low I can imagine, I can imagine, and also I
also will forever be bitter that my one season was
fans versus favorites. I think it's so inherently unfair. But
something I didn't think about until just now was that
you probably got equally screwed in that because you know,
your your tribe lost the first challenge, which was the

(11:31):
only challenge that I was there to see us win,
because we lost everything else. But so there's just so
little context about who you were, and maybe if you
had been on a tribe full of newbies, maybe it
would have been different. But because there was so little
for the favorite tribe to work off of, I only
just thought about that.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, I mean, that's not why why I got voted
out first, Like I don't think. I mean, I think
it wasn't like they didn't know me well when I
think they actually knew me really well. And that's.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Oh, I take back what I said.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, I mean I think I honestly am not totally
clear on this because you know, I never watched the show,
so I don't know what happened. I don't know what
was shown. I only know what I've heard from other people.
And apparently like that was a plan from before we
even got to the Philippines, like I was always going
to be verses. So yeah, wow, on.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
To bigger and better things.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
So fine, though, because like like for me, I mean,
that's I'm so sorry that you had such a sucky experience,
you know, like it's yeah, and you like you you're
you guys were screwed, Like you were definitely at a disadvantage.
I mean, I understand why they wanted to do fans
versus favorites because it was so successful the first time
they did it. But I just don't think they just

(12:57):
didn't cast the right people. Yeah, I just don't think
it anyway. But but but I also if I had say,
I was the third person voted out of my second season, like,
I mean, that would have been super anti climacting too.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
There are certain pizazz to your legendary performance, so you know,
that's a beautiful way to look at it. I love
the positivity and the optimism. I support that one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
So what you mentioned that you and I knew you
in the context of being a lawyer as well, And
so can you explain how how you make the transition
from lawyer to matchmaker and love professional, which I think
is so beautiful and I'm so excited to get into that.
And like if if the experience on Survivor was at
all involved in that career shift.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, it was involved in the sense that and I
think this is this is another you know, be careful
what you wish for situation, because I wanted I wanted
to shake things up and I wanted to like you know,
figure out this new path for myself. And so after
after our season, you know, really having to confront like, Okay,

(14:14):
I've now done this crazy thing twice, like like now,
like now this is a pattern, right, so like what
am I meant to learn from this? Like and and
I think it took me maybe a while to learn
all of the lessons from it, but what was clear
right away was like, this is my life and I
need to change the narrative because right now I'm just

(14:38):
like this, like this cannot be my story like lawyer
visceral who did it, loved being a lawyer, and then
like had this like now I'm I'm like quote famous
for like being a loser like this. I was like,
this is not this is not my legacy. This is
not my legacy. Seriously, I was like, this is not
my legacy. And then also, you know, another thing that

(15:01):
happened a few a few months after our season aired
was my brother, my older brother, who was thirty nine
at the time. It was just before his fortieth birthday.
He died suddenly, and so it was just this like
sense of like, I mean, of course, we all know
that anyone can die, you know, like you can die

(15:21):
any time, and you know, like I'd lost my dad,
but he had been sick and so we had time
to like wrap our heads around the fact that he
was passing. But with my brother, it was just a
sudden and so thank you, but it definitely left me
with just like Okay, I'm I don't know what it
is that I meant to do, but I'm sick of
not knowing, so like I'm fine, I'm going to find out,
and you know, and I just started getting really clear

(15:44):
I'm like, Okay, well, what are the elements that I
do know? Like, I know I want to work with people.
I know that I want to help people do something
that's really important to their lives. I know that I
you know, I don't want to be sitting in an
office every day. I mean I was like going from
like the practical, so the you know, the more like
purpose driven and and so I had kind of realized

(16:08):
that I would probably be some sort of coach, but
I didn't really know what that was, you know what.
I kind of like knew well enough to coach anyone on.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
You know, like what am I an expert at?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
What can I Yeah, Like I was like I'm gonna
be like I'm like a life coach and be like
who would listen to you? So, you know, but I
felt like I wanted to perform some kind of service
and I didn't know what that what that service could
look like. So anyway, I wound up because as you know,
I'm you know, this has happened to me many times,

(16:41):
and I'm a big believer, like when you asked the
universe for information, like you're going to start to get it.
And I wound up going to this fourth of July
barbecue and I was speaking to a woman there. Never
spoke to her before or since, but she just mentioned
that she followed this blackmail matchmaker on Twitter. And I
was like, there's a black male matchmaker, Like who are

(17:02):
you talking about?

Speaker 1 (17:03):
You know?

Speaker 2 (17:05):
And excuse me. His name was Paul Brunson, is still
Paul Brunson. And I started following him and he had
been an investment banker, like he had an MBA and
he left to like start this matchmaking agency. So I
kind of, like, you know, could relate to him as
somebody who had like walked away from a like professional
path and a particular professional path. And he I liked

(17:27):
what he had to say. And one day he tweeted
that he was going to be speaking at the Matchmaking
Institute conference and I was like, there's a matchmaking institute
and the conference is like what you know? And and
I literally responded to his tweet and I was like,
I want to come, and he said you should come,
And I went and I met all these people who

(17:48):
were just regular people whose job it was to help
people find love. And I was like, wait, I can, like,
what's more important to people's lives than love? And and
and you know, as as life has it, like this
big breadcrumb that had been sitting in front of my
face the whole time. That I hadn't seen was the

(18:08):
fact that I had been blogging about dating for like
three years that.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Was just going on the whole time. It was going
on the whole time, writing specifically about love.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yes, yeah, wow, Like like before I ever went on Survivor,
I had already started blogging about dating, huh. And and
it was like because a friend of mine had a
blog and she had invited me to be a contributor
to the blog. And she was like, she's like, oh,
maybe you can write about the law or whatever. And
I was like, I am not writing about the law,
like in my free time, you know, right, and she

(18:42):
and she and she said, and actually, this is always
a question that I ask people because this when who
when they were struggling to figure out like what is
it that they want to do, because you know, obviously
it's a common question. Yeah, and so and I was like,
I don't want to write about the law, and she said, well,
you can write about whatever you want. And I was like, hmm,
So this is the question that people can ask themselves,
like Okay, if somebody were to present you with an
opportunity like this right, like and whatever you want, whatever

(19:05):
you want, you get to write about, you get to
talk about, Like what would that be? And I said, well,
the only thing I could think of is dating, because
you know, I had had a very long, winding dating
journey and it's something that I had been very focused
on in my life and I had I learned a
lot of lessons that I could see like other people

(19:25):
were struggling with. And so I was like, sure, s
I'll start. So I started as dating advice blog. But
still I'm like, what am I going to do with
my life? What am I going to do with my life?
And I never it never once occurred to me like,
oh maybe there's something here. Yeah, even though I enjoyed it,
even though people were like taking my advice and like,
you know, so is anyway, blinders are a real.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Well you get in the weeds and like deeply in
your own head about things, and then sometimes it's just
like it's hard to even get that thirty thousand foot
view without someone or something else's intervention.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and so I I So when I
saw SO, I was like, wait, I care about love.
I know a lot about love, like yeah, and this
checks a lot of boxes, so I yeah, so I
went for it. So that was literally, you know, like
I decided that day to sign up for my matchmaking certifications.

(20:21):
I went to matchmaking school.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
That's amazing. And how long a matchmaking school? What does
it look like?

Speaker 2 (20:28):
It's that long. I think we had like maybe five
sessions and it's a lot and a lot of homework,
and then you have to write a business plan at
the end of it. That's kind of like the big project.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
That's an amazing project. Like that's such a good that's
such a good like thing to have as you're like
embarking on this new career.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah. No, it's actually really important because you have to
think through so many things, like what is your model
going to be?

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Like?

Speaker 2 (20:54):
So for instance, like some matchmakers they only match client
to client, and you know, some matchmakers only match a
client to a pre selected pool of people. Some matchmakers
are just like, Okay, I'm your matchmaker, I'm your agent.
I'm going to go out in the world and just
find people where I can find them, you know, like,
you know, and it's just what's the demographic that you match,

(21:17):
and what's the location, and like there's just all these
different things that you need to figure out, and like
how are you what's your theory of compatibility and how
are you going to get the work? Like so it
makes you think through a lot of things. So it
was super helpful, super helpful. And then I went on
Facebook and I was like, hey, guys, I'm a matchmaker,

(21:37):
Now send me your singles.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, oh my god, that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
That is amazing, And that is literally that Facebook post
is how I got my first client.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
No way, who did it? I mean, if you can
without identifying, but like Ney to come from, was a.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Friend and wound up being a friend of a friend.
So I was a friend who saw my post and
forwarded it to another friend of hers who was single
and happened to be looking for a matchmaker, and she
hired me. She was my first client. That is so cool.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
In Mantesska, I want to hear more about this. I
have so many follow up questions. We're going to take
a quick break, but we will be right back with
Francesca Hogy on if I'm hom this with Julia Landauer.
We are back on if I'm honest with Julia Landover
with Francesca Hogy and you got your first client from

(22:29):
your first Facebook post and that is so cool. And
I want to get into some of the more nitty
gritty business aspects of it, but first I want to
ask you about something you reference on your website, which
says that you've had a long term fascination with falling
in love. Yeah, can you elaborate on what that fascination was?

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah, you know, I was a romantic child, and I
was someone who I was reading like Jane Austen and
like the Bronte Sisters and also like Danielle Steele and
like Sidney Shildon, like trashy novels and like, but I
was so from a young age, I was just so

(23:13):
like enthralled with romance and just like I was like, oh,
I just want to grow up and like have passionate
love affairs and like travel the world, and like it
was so like that was just so always so enthralling
to me. And and you know, it's always it's funny
because we're so into what we're into, and we're so

(23:34):
in our own heads that I just kind of thought
everyone was that interested in love, you know. Yeah, And
but I, but then I kind of came to realize
as like girl older, it's like, not everybody thinks about
this as.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Much as I think of it.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
But I was definitely like I was even from I'd
say probably junior high was when I was like, if
a friend of mine likes like like a boy, I'm like, okay,
we got to make this happen. Like I was like,
I've always so, I've always been just like meddling in
people's love lives and thinking and noticing and looking at relationships.

(24:11):
And my father, for my father had been married. My
father had actually been married three times before he married
my mom, and it was definitely a fourth times to
charm situation because they were like meant to be together.
But he would talk to me about relationships, and he
would talk to me he would say like, you know,

(24:32):
the importance of choosing someone who had good character, and
you know, he would literally point out other couples that
were in our lives and you'd be like, you know,
you see how you know they respect each other, or
you see how they don't respect each other. You know,
Like so he was so I think the combination of
like my dad who was so determined to like pass
on these like these lessons that he had learned so

(24:55):
I didn't have to make the same mistakes he made,
and me just being this like child who like I
never and I mean you probably grew up like loving
racing and cars, right, like right, I would imagine because
and and I and so I mean did you when
you were like a little girl where you like I'm

(25:15):
gonna I'm gonna be a race car driver.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
By the time I was twelve, Yeah, when I had
gotten into okay go karting.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, so you knew okay, Yeah, so I was
like I was so envious of people like you.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, yeah, I know I've heard that before.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, because like it was like in terms of like
what my life looks like, it was like a total
just a black box, like just a total like blank slate,
like I have no idea. But the only thing that
I ever really knew that I wanted was like to
have like deep romantic love. But it was all but

(25:49):
it was never like because I think because of my dad,
I was never like I need to just like I
didn't want to just like fall in love and get
married like I wanted to, like you know what I mean,
Like the whole. I wanted the whole process, and I
never like, and I actually was never focused on getting there.
I never dream even though I was very romantic and

(26:10):
I dreamt of the relationship, I never dreamt of a wedding.
I never cared about that. I just wanted the relationship.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, a substance behind it.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah yeah, So you know, so fast forward to now
it all is it's like, oh yeah, like this all
makes perfect sense.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah it doesn't happen. Well, that must have been so fun
to like look back and realize, like you said, you
like were meddling your friends love lives, and like it's like, oh,
this calling was like in the interview the whole time. Time,
the whole life is so weird. So when you when
you like took your matchmaking course and we were in
that phase of getting to where you are, now, what

(26:50):
was your romantic situation at that time?

Speaker 2 (26:53):
So at that time, so when I first first started
matchmaking school and launched my business, I was in a relationship.
I wasn't like necessarily like this is a person I'm
going to be with forever, but but I was committed.
I was in it, you know. And actually it's funny
because and This is also for people who feel like

(27:17):
maybe you have a crazy idea, something you want to do.
It seems crazy, but me, it's probably not crazy something
you want to do, And but a lot of what
we worry about it is like, well, what are other
people going to think? Or you know who? Whatever? And
I and I had a friend of mine who's a
dear friend of mine, actually call me up when I
made this announcement about hey guys, I'm a matchmaker now,

(27:40):
and she was like, you know, are you sure this
is a good idea, because it's not like, you know,
you're like you know Mary to you know, like she
was like, she was like basically saying like.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Do you actually like are you credible enough to are
you credible to do this?

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah? And I was like and I totally understood where
she was coming from. And I was like, listen, I
get it, and I understand that you're saying this out
of concern for me, but like, don't worry. Yeah, it's
gonna be fine. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
But I do think that something that I that my
situation at that time did cause me to do, which
I think is actually good and healthy, is not make
what I was teaching other people about me, right, because
there are a lot of like matchmakers and coaches who
are like, look at my amazing partner, and like I

(28:33):
found my prince charming, and I'm going to help you
find your prince charming too, And I understand why that
marketing is effective for some people, but I just never
I was like I don't, like, I don't what do
you and your husband have to do with me? You know,
like it just like to me, I was like, you know,
like you know, especially like as dating has been changing,

(28:54):
and you know, like I started at the start of
like Tinder and all this, and I'm like, I'm sorry.
If you've been married to your husband for twenty years
and you guys went to college together, like that's great,
Like that's a different world.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
You have no ideas the landscape right now, Like yeah, you.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Have no idea what it's like out there. Things are different,
Like culture has changed so much, like our expectations of
romantic relationships have changed so much, and so yeah, they're
fundamental things that about you know, character and values and
like you know, intimacy and you know how to foster
that over I mean, there's fundamental aspects of like being

(29:31):
in a relationship remain, but the whole like courtship process
and meeting people and just the way that we connect
as humans has changed so much, and so it actually
forced me to be very focused on, like, how how
can I help as many people as possible have the

(29:54):
relationship and have the love that they want, not like
what I'm going to teach people to do what I did,
do you know what I mean? So I had a
different approach, like I think from the beginning, which has
been now really helpful. And now it's like kind of
why I am where I am now in my career
because I am not that kind of very tactical coach

(30:17):
who's like, you know, oh, just like say these five
things and for this exact way, and you know, I
like because those days are over, like dating can't be hacked.
Like it's time to go to a higher level, a
deeper level. And that's just something that I've been focused
on from the beginning, which.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
I think is yeah, which I think is so great
because I love your thoughts on this. Because so my
sister brother and I talk every week, We have a
FaceTime every week, and at one point over the last
handful of years, one of one of them was giving
dating advice to the other. And I remember hearing dating
advice thinking that is not what I would do, like that,

(30:57):
that feels like not the right dating advice, not for
substantial st like how you respond to things or when
you respond like stuff like that. And I realized kind
of in that discussion it was like giving people dating
advice seems like maybe not the best use of time,
like from the specific tactical things, because what you might

(31:17):
need or want in a relationship is going to be
different than what I might need or want. And I
might not care if I am over zealous in my
texting because guess what, I wear my heart on my
fucking sleeve all the time, and so if I try
to hide that, it's going to be a surprise later on.
So I just had this aha moment, like why have
I ever given anyone dating advice? Because but at the

(31:37):
same time, there's like red flags that I think are
universal that you should probably be aware of, right or
like some like more substantial stuff like that. But like
the tactical dating advice feels like it's not effective because
everyone is different and needs different things.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yes, so well said, and I couldn't agree more. And yeah,
it's like it's not one size fits all. I mean
I have I mean I'm not like really trying to
plug myself right now, but I.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Do the way.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
But it is relevant to this is just that like,
like I created these four dating archetypes because I realize
after like years of doing this work and like working
with so many people, it's like people are at different
phases of their dating journey. Like we're all on a
lifelong love journey and has different chapters. Sometimes you're in
a relationship with another person, Sometimes you're in a relationship
with yourself. Sometimes you're actively dating. But it's all the

(32:27):
same journey, but particularly in this dating phase, like you know,
like you said, some people need different things. Like if
you're a person who hasn't been on a date in
five years and you've been avoiding dating and you're super
uncomfortable receiving romantic attention, like guess what, Like you have
a different immediate love assignment than somebody who they're you know,

(32:51):
maybe they are somebody who goes from relationship to relations
to relationship and they haven't been single since they we're sixteen,
and you know, versus somebody who has been dating NonStop
but you know, no matter how many people they meet,
they just have this pattern that they can't break and
they just can't actually get you know. So it's like
these these people are not dealing with the same primary issues.

(33:12):
So the idea that you can just imprint writing and
just gives all of these people five steps and like
they're going to magically find love is like ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, so you mentioned your dating archetypes, and I decided
to go in and take the dating ARCHETYPEQI. Now obviously
had to kind of I put myself in the self
that when I was single or like right before I
met my now husband, and I I don't know if
you can guess what people would be, but I guess
it's different because its like a different mindset. But I

(33:45):
a I was a sailor.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah yeah, yeah, you got big sailor.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Energy and if I felt like it, do you mind
if I share like what things?

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (33:55):
So I'm a sailor for everyone, And this is on
Francesca Hoge's website, which I'll link in the description. But
as a sailor, I am thoughtful and wise, thank you
very much, resilient and self aware, loyal and dedicated to
their commitments, which I think fits me to a tee
across the board for my life. But it was really
fun to read through and like, you know, twenty two

(34:15):
year old Julia was not a sailor, And you know,
I thought it was a really nice way to break
down kind of how the lens with which you would
look through dating, because I put myself back to twenty
eighteen when I was last single, and like, yeah, that's
what it felt like. I was ready for that. So
I thought it was really cool and I highly recommend

(34:37):
everyone else go check that out. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
It's interesting.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Oh yeah, and like it forces you to think about,
I don't know, just kind of where you are and
what's hopefully a more objective perspective, because self awareness is
so hard and we're asking ourselves to be objective about
a very subjective thing. So how did you think to
develop that type a breakdown as to the type of

(35:02):
where you are in your dating journey and your archetype.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
You know, it was honestly like an aha moment. It was.
I totally even remember it, Like I was in my
my little bungalow at Echo Park in LA and I
was just because I was just thinking, I think I
had had maybe a client session, something that had been triggered,
like really something that had triggered me really focusing on

(35:27):
the fact that like, wow, like I really have gotten
to the point where I can put people in these buckets.
Like I could talk to people for ten minutes about
their dating life and be like, oh, I know what
they're like, not saying I know everything about them, but
I can I can feel I can see what their
primary that the primary issue is that they need to
deal with right now to like get past this, you know,

(35:51):
where they are right now. And that just kind of
made me realize I was okay, because there's definitely the
people who avoid it, you know, all together, and then
they're the people who were stuck in a pattern that
they can't break. And I was like, yeah, like there
are loopers. And then once I said like a void
and looper, then it all kind of just it all
just kind of down.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
That's so cool, and it's I think again, we can
get in the weeds in our own lives, and so
being able to have kind of that external perspective of
who we are is helpful.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, yeah, thank you course.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Well, I want to go into something else that I review,
because it's just so great. Are you are a TED
speaker not just a TED X speaker, You are a
TED speaker, which is very exciting. And I watch your
talk and you for those of you who haven't, again
I link in the description, but you talk about the
commodification of love and kind of the fantasy of happily
ever after, And I loved the call out that you

(36:49):
said that society wants us to feel that love is
scarce when it's actually abundant, and can you dive into
that realization? So I wholeheartedly agree with you. And I
think scarcity to mindset's like such a damaging thing that's
so prevalent in our culture, especially for women, for everyone,
but particularly for women in love, in jobs, in family,

(37:11):
like all that stuff. So can you ye go into
that a little bit?

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah, so you know, I you know, kind of another
download that I had was like really thinking of this
as I call it in might talk like this fairy
tale industrial complex like this all of these different industries
and systems that really benefit from us being, especially women,
being in this mindset of like as long as I

(37:37):
get a man to choose me, then like that's that's
the goals. Then I then I'll live happily ever after
and then I'll be good enough in all of these things.
And that's incredibly harmful to us because it takes now,
first of all, like our worthiness and our agency, and
it places it in the hands of someone else to

(37:58):
like complete complete us, which we don't need completing. So so
what I talk about that I want people to understand,
like the actual power of love and what love really is,
and how love is so much more than being chosen
by someone. It's more so much more than of you know,

(38:19):
it's diamond rings are beautiful, but like you know, there
are people who literally make decisions about who they're going
to spend their lives with based on the ring that
they buy, right, And there are people who literally don't
propose marriage to people that they want to be with
because they can't afford to buy a diamond ring. Right.

(38:40):
And the whole tradition of a diamond ring was a
marketing campaign that de Beers did in nineteen forty eight
because people didn't buy diamonds because diamond engagement rings weren't
a thing. And Debier's was like, how are we going
to sell all these diamonds because they have like massive
stockpiles of diamonds in you know, underground in South Africa,

(39:01):
and because diamonds aren't rare actually, right, and so if
all the diamonds that De Beer's had stockpiled were to
enter the market, we'd be buying diamonds at the gas station.
So they didn't. So they didn't have so they couldn't
just say this is a rare you know, like this

(39:22):
is a that they had to make a story to
sell diamonds. And so the story that they made was
that a diamond is a symbol of love and that
the more you love, right, the more special, like the
bigger the diamond, the more expensive the diamond, and all
of these things about like the diamond should be three
months salary, like De Beer's made that. Like it's all
like it was all literally just a marketing campaign that

(39:43):
people in people have like embraced as values as reality
as the prerequisite for you know, being in partnership with someone, right.
And so again I'm not knocking diamonds, but at least
know what you're understand.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Well, And it's some I'm going to introduct real quick
because it's so interesting because my husband's French, and so
ring culture in Europe is so different, and I really
and look, I'm a shallow, bitty like I wanted a
certain kind of ring, Like I will really admit that,
but partially because that's like, you know, that's what we're
raised with. But I remember like seeing women from really

(40:22):
affluent families in Europe with really smaller rings. I'm not like,
not an a judgment call, but like the culture was
so different than what I was raised with and what
you were raised with, and I just remember it was
kind of like this wake up call, like, oh my goodness,
we are so shallow and but yeah, I mean, we
are a culture that commodifies almost everything and capitalist, and

(40:44):
that's just that's not good, not bad, but what it is,
and it really especially I'm seeing the disappointing nature of
that when it relates to love, which, to your point,
is so much deeper than that.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Yeah, it's so much cheaper than that. And and love
is something that we all have in We have an
unlimited reserve and continually regenerating reserve of love within us,
and and we all know that because we never worry
about running out of love. Yeah, right, Like no one's

(41:18):
ever been like, oh wait, I can't like love. I
can't love this person this much because I have to
hold on to the love I have because what if
I need it for someone else? Right? Like we all
we so, we all, I think intuitively understand that love
is abundant because if we all, if we all have
this infinite reserve of love within us, then it's actually

(41:41):
like the most abundant thing much less.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah yeah right, it's like one of the few truly
abundant resources in the world.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yeah, I mean, what's more, what is actually more abundant
than love? So yeah right? And you know, so love, Yes,
it is an emotion that we feel, but it's also
something that we do, and it's something it's an energy
and you know, like loving your neighbor doesn't mean you
have to fall in love with them. It means you

(42:14):
just treat them with respect and kindness and you know
what I mean, Like it's like like that's love. Yeah right,
and so and so I think once you understand the
true nature of love and you're able to really just
if you decide, like if someone says to me, Okay,

(42:36):
I want to be with someone, and people have said
things like this to me many times. I want to
be with somebody who's you know, at least six foot two,
has at least one hundred and fifty thousand dollars cash
savings on hand has you know, makes at least two
hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year. Like okay, that's fine,
you know, but also, like what do you actually want

(42:59):
your relationship to be like with that person?

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Like, like what do you want to feel like? Because
you're using these ideas of compatibility as a proxy for
like love, So actually, because you already know what your
preferences are, so you don't need to be so focused
on them. You actually need to figure out what it
is that you actually want to experience and co create
with another person. And you might be going to carry

(43:24):
you like you need that's what you need to carry you, right,
And that's like so I get frustrated when people are
I'm like, you have to really stop and like take
actually take love more seriously than this like very really
shallow capitalistic notion of love, like as long as you

(43:47):
I mean, I don't know, like do you do you?
Have you ever watched Love is Blind a little bit? Yeah? Okay, yeah,
I can't watch it totally because it like makes me crazy.
I'm not like I don't generally watch dating shows.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
This met me with racing shows.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
You know. It's like I'm like, uh, yeah, I can't.
I can't watch The Bachelor, I can't none of that.
But but I but love is Blind is interesting from
a sociological perspective to me, And but it's also so
fascinating to me. How like these people are so quick
to just like fall into every trope of romance and

(44:28):
just like and just declare, after like, you know, a
few dates, how like, I'm gonna love you forever. I'm
going to protect you forever. You're never gonna you know,
You're you're never gonna be lonely again, You're never And
I'm just like, and you know, and the music is
playing like it's this big romantic moment, and I'm like,
this is not how love works, people, This is not

(44:51):
how love works. You know. Yeah, but that fantasy is
so seductive, and but it keeps a lot of people
at Actually, paradoxically, it actually keeps them further away from
the love that they want because they're approaching it from
the outside in and they're not understanding that it's actually
an inside job. And so when you approach it from

(45:14):
the inside out, then you actually can guarantee that you
get the love that you want versus it being a
crapshoot and like you know, we'll see.

Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah, and that requires like intuition and self awareness and
also like deep work on yourself to your point that, yeah,
is critical that I think isn't emphasized enough in like
the average person's upbringing and self discovery. Yeah, we're going
to take a quick break, but we'll be right back
with Francesca. We're back with Franchecca. And if I'm honest

(45:51):
with Julia Landauer, so we're just talking about, you know,
discovering and showing love from the inside out. Have you
noticed any difference with clients who have children versus those
who don't who are on their dating journey if you've
had that distinction with clients.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
I have. And I actually like working with parents because
it actually makes things It makes it makes things easier
in two ways. It makes things easier for them to
like prioritize what really matters because you know, especially like

(46:28):
they just they just don't have the time, like they
don't have the time, you know, to to waste just
dating people who are far from what they actually are seeking.
I think being a parent and looking for a partner,
you know that like, this is somebody who's going to
be in your child's life. And so sometimes that is

(46:49):
that helps people to hold a higher standard for their
relationship than they would maybe for themselves, because it's because
and this is the other reason that I that I
like working with parents, is because there's so many moments
where where if I shift the question to applying to
their child or what their expectation would be for their child,

(47:12):
or whether or not their child deserves that or is
worthy of this, then they're able to say like, oh,
my God, of course, like my child deserves you know,
of course my child was born worthy. Right. It's like, well,
if your child was born worthy, perhaps you were as well.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Right connect those dot Sometimes.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Perhaps that's just how life works, right, Like when your
child was born, you weren't like, Okay, we need to
wait and see how this one turns out before we're
going to love them right or treat them with kindness
or care or respect or want good things for them. Right.
And so I think that perspective is that can be
really really helpful that parents can I mean, you don't

(47:54):
have I'm not a parent like you don't have to
be a parent to be able to, like, you know,
relate to the fact that like children are or and worthy.
But but I have seen it in real life with
real people. It actually be really helpful for them to
like unlock a deeper level of understanding about love. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
No, I mean that makes total sense. And do you
do you see that kind of difference between non parents
and parents has the same kind of jump from men
versus women. It does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (48:29):
I don't. I think that not exactly with with men
versus women. I would say this is interesting, and I
might get in trouble for saying this, but this is
just the reality of like the men that I've worked with,
they tend to be I think, first of all, for
a man to like actually say like I'm going to

(48:50):
hire a coach to help me with love, like he's committed. Yeah,
he's like committed, and so it's a big step. It's
a big step. And so and it's such a big
step that like they don't need like like I can,
like they'll just like we can have one conversation about
something and they'd be like, wow, you're right, that's a

(49:13):
I never thought about it that way. That's a really
good point. Yeah, I'm going to stop doing this, I'm
going to start doing that, and then they actually do it,
whereas with women it tends to be more of a
there's it can it can be. It tends to be
more of a process, like for them to like just
jump into action. But I think it's because women have
so much more programming around romantic love that is disempowering. Yeah,

(49:39):
so we have like kind of an extra layer to
unpack and to unravel and and and so you know,
and for some other reasons as well. So I'm not
saying this to knock women.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
At all, of course.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
And I think also even just the fact that women
tend to be very well more so than the average man,
I think just basically due to socialization, tend to be
more self reflective and like more aware of their emotions
and so so that's a great thing, but it can
also mean that we can get so stuck in our
self reflection and so stuck in processing that our emotions

(50:18):
that we're not willing to take action until we feel
like ready and good and confident and like we you know,
like we have a high bar that we're holding ourselves to,
or we can even take action, versus men are more like, Okay,
that's what I got to do, I'll do it like
they're just more like.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Well, that's not just in love. That's like if you
think of the Harvard Business Review study about how women
want apply for jobs or promotions unless they meet one
hundred percent of the request yes, whereas guys will meet
like sixty percent and be like, all right, I'm good
to go.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Right, yeah, exactly, and I'm gonna be like I'm going
to get this job. I'm going to rock this job.
And yeah, and we're not even applying and where to
be his boss? Yeah, yeah, yeah, A.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Whole another common versation we could totally have. I want
to respectful of your time. I can't believe this time
is gone by already. I want to jump into before
we get to the if you're honest, rapid fire the
dating climate now, because my husband and I met on
an app, and I have a lot of success with
apps in general, because especially I moved to North Carolina

(51:22):
to pursue my racing career, and I was very seadfast
that I would not date people in the industry. I
just did not want to for any number of reasons.
The only way I was going to meet people because
I'm not the most social being and I was traveling
all the time, was on the apps. So before my husband,
hypothetically I dated someone for two and a half years.

(51:42):
We met on an app. I met my husband on
an app. But I've also heard just on social media
with influencers with friends that like the apps are awful
now and that like the climate is rough, and I'm
guessing I just want what's your assessment of the dating
climate on apps in particular, maybe any tips that if
people feel like the apps are the only way to
find people, what your tips or suggestion or response would be.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Yeah, I mean the apps are not They're not having
their best moment and for a number of reasons, but
you know, people are burned out on the apps. But
also the incentives are fundamentally misaligned because these apps profit
for your search for love, right, and so they need
people like you, Julia, who are going to get on
and are going to be focused and going to like,

(52:28):
you know, not waste your time. And you're going to
I'm sure that you actually like engage with the messages
and you're like okay, like let's get together. You're not
kind of getting sucked into what the technology very easily
kind of guides people into, which is sort of like
just endless swiping, you know, endless scrolling, endless swiping, endless messaging,

(52:51):
like things not going like like that they need people
like you to be successful. So like they can still
say like this works because it does for some people,
but it doesn't work for most people because most people
are not using that are not using the apps in
a way that are likely to be successful, and so
we have a lot of people who are you know,

(53:12):
the first of all, their mindset about other people is
like catalog, you know, items in a catalog, So you're
not actually like taking a moment, what does this person
happy to say? What's the energy? And you know, like
they're so like is this hot? You know, people are
looking for more reasons to say no than they are
looking for reasons to say yes. And they're saying yes
to a lot of things that might make a really

(53:35):
sexy profile but aren't necessarily connected to like what are
we're going to carry them? Aren't going to carry them?

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Right?

Speaker 2 (53:44):
And people are distracted. So it's like you know, I
mean I always tell people just this basic advice of
like like do you do like, do you're swiping one
day a week and then the rest of the week.
Let it be you're communicating with the people that you're
matched with. You're seeing like, Okay, is there something here
for us to you know, get together, go on a date,

(54:05):
blah blah blah. If there's not, wrap it up. If
there is, like actually make that like just like just
not have it be always like and now I have
to keep swiping and I have to keep getting more
matches and I have to keep going. It's like, just
take a moment and actually pay attention to the people
you've already connected with, right and look at your profile
and ask yourself, does the kind of person who I

(54:27):
want to meet, who's looking for the kind of relationship
that I want to have, would they look at this
profile and feel like we're a match? Because too many
people are just trying to get as many matches as
possible and be as generically and widely appealing as possible.
And that is not helpful, you know, And so like
you've got to really I mean, I know, like authenticity

(54:50):
is like such a you know, overused word and term
at this point, but like, and there's levels of authenticity.
But even on this basic level of like how you
are present yourself and the things that you're saying. I
can't tell you the number of people Julia who showed
me their profiles and they tell me that they're looking
for like a partner, they want love, they want true love,

(55:10):
they want commitment, and their profiles are indistinguishable from somebody
who's looking for a hookup. Yeah, yeah, Like what are
you doing? You know?

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Is that everything from like pictures to prompts to I
haven't been on the apps in a while, but I'm
assuming like all of.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
It's like it's like your first photo is like super sexy,
like you know, like bikini photo. Like honestly, like you
don't need like you don't need to have a you
don't need to have a sexy bikini photo on your
profile because trust me, they they're already. They're they're already
like yeah, like you need to have a full body

(55:48):
photo on your profile, right, and like and they can
do all of the they can use their imaginations, they
can use their imagination, right, Like, so just knowing because
like you presenting yourself in that way is like you're
leading with something. This is just reality, right, Like you're
just leading with something that is saying like I'm showing
you that this is what I value about myself, right

(56:11):
that I want you that I'm using to draw you in,
which is a very different energy than having a first
photo where it's a headshot of you looking into the
camera and smiling. Yeah, it's a totally different energy and
you get different kinds of matches, you know. So I
just I think, you know, just really again inside job,
So like, you know, how am I approaching this? Am

(56:33):
I approaching this? Like this is just a distraction and
it's something to do in my spare time. But I'm
not taking it seriously. You know, people stay on the
apps for long time, and sometimes people have been on
apps for like, you know, five years, ten years, and
it's like you were just in algorithmic hell. Anyway. But
the larger point, and then I'll move on to see
you see I can go on about this. The larger

(56:54):
point is that I never want anyone to be solely
dependent on the dating apps. You had a special situation
and you were also intentional about it, which is why
you've been successful on the apps.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
But also it's just a note. I was in Charlotte
where the apps that were using were fairly new, so
it was a specific subset of people who were aware
of it and using it. So I do think I'm
also I've been in a smaller midsize city. It's not
the same thing. I don't think as dating in New
York or in LA. So I just wanted to put
that out there, the.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Yeah, yes and no. I mean honestly, wherever you go,
there you are. And like if you show up with
intention in New York and LA, you're also going to
have success. Like it's just you know, but but but
actually I should say I never want anybody to be
solely dependent on the apps. Yeah, so to me, they
should be something that you do as a supplement to
your in person efforts. And part of why people are

(57:46):
so frustrated with the apps is that so many people
now equate dating with being on a dating app. And
you do not have to be on a dating app
to date. No, So it's like you might you have
to do other things in your life differently so that
you're you know, you're more comfortable like with those interactions
that you have, with those day to day interactions, Like

(58:08):
I call it a meet cute mindset, Like are you
willing to like adopt the belief because it's true that
every time you leave your house you have the potential
to meet someone special. And so given that, what might
you do differently?

Speaker 1 (58:20):
Right?

Speaker 2 (58:21):
When might you not be on your phone and you
actually just be with your surroundings. When might you actually
make eye contact or smile or say hello, or say
oh wow, those are cool shoes. Or when might you
like accept an invitation to a party that you wouldn't
normally go to because you don't know anyone there and
actually be like, well, I don't know anyone there, right,
and I'm open to meeting people I want to date.

(58:43):
I want to you know, so expanding your social circle
and just like embracing connection for the sake of connection, Yeah,
getting comfortable flirting. You might have to do all those things,
but you can do all those things right, And so
I think if people did more of that, then the
experience on the apps would be different, because then it
wouldn't be like this kind of desperate energy of like

(59:03):
this is the only way I can meet someone.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Goes back to the scarcity, goes back to the scarcity
of love, and it's not. And I do think your
point of like when you're on your phone versus not
is like I feel like having your phone out in
public is such a blinder for the world around you.
And if you need like a defense mechanism, short whip
it out. But like yeah, walking on the street, being
in a grocery store, waiting in an elevator, it's such

(59:30):
a big difference if you just also a little practice
you get with having those like little micro conversations and
you get to work on your energy. And I see
that even like I'm almost a year into working at
NASCAR and I'm still meeting people and so like in
the elevator, even it helps that we don't have service
in the elevator, but like you know, fortunately, like I
will always say high to people and I ask what

(59:51):
they're doing on the team, like in the company, and
it just I think it really helps the energy that
you have, like how you how you how you view
people you don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yeah, well, and it also helps with our just our
mental health and our physical well being, like you know,
like sociology, like they call those weak ties, like just
like those micro interactions that you have every day, they
actually have an effect on your overall health, happiness, feelings,
of connectedness, like just knowing, like, yeah, there are other

(01:00:22):
humans in this world and we have the ability to connect.
Love is not scarce, right, Like we can cut ourselves
off from other people, or we can move through the
world in a more open hearted way. And if you
combine moving through the world in an open hearted way
with an intention for romantic partnership, like you will meet people.
But you know, are you going to be able to
recognize and capitalize on those opportunities. That's what I want

(01:00:44):
people to focus on.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, I know that we're almost out of time, so
I just want to ask one more question before the
rapid fire. Do you notice a difference in and I
don't know how much you're coaching folks in New York
versus LA. And I know you're based in LA.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
My clients are everywhere everywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Okay, So one thing that I really miss about New
York is that pedestrian stranger interaction because Charlotte's not particularly
pedestrian friendly and so you're isolated a lot more in
your car going to work. You can walk around in neighborhoods,
but it's not as it's not New York. Nope, I
don't understand. No places New York. But do you notice
a difference in those like soft connections with your clients

(01:01:21):
and how that impacts the dating in la versus New York.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
You know, honestly, I think people have just as much
trouble these days, even in big cities, because even if
they are having those interactions, having those interactions but still
having still the openness like oh maybe I can capitalize
on this moment and feeling the confidence or they know

(01:01:46):
how to do that is something that people are struggling with.
And even in you know, I mean, I know, like
you and I are both New York City natives, but
like even you know, technology and the way people interact
with technology in New York, everybody's heads down too with
their phone, so things are not but for someone like you,

(01:02:07):
like me, like I'm also very intentional about connection. I
talk to people, I make friends all the time, like
I'm always because but it's a choice. Yeah, and even
in big cities, people are not always making that choice.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
There there for any this has been so great, We're
gonna end on the rapid fire if you're honest, So
buckle up. I've got some heavy hitters here, not really
at all. First first question is do you stay friends
with your exes?

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Hah No, If I'm being honest, I don't. Media it's
not And it's not that I wish them any will,
ill will or anything like that. It's just that we
didn't have a pure friendship.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Yeah, and so no, I agree. I feel like if
you go into a relationship, especially if it starts as
a romantic pursuit, yeah, like that's a different dynamic.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean I have a couple of like,
you know, we kind of dated and we were friends first,
so that we kind of dated, but then what not
that serious and we're still friends. I have those, But
in terms of like committed, we went into a relationship,
you were my partner, like once we break up, yeah,
I mean yeah, if life were to organically bring us

(01:03:25):
back together at a different time where that made sense,
that's one thing. But otherwise no, Yeah, I hear you
on the same page.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
What's something you've read recently that you loved.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Ooh okay, well this is a little bit of a cheat,
but I so I was at ted last week in Atlanta,
and uh there was a speaker named Caslee Killham, and
she wrote a book called The Art and Science of Connection.
Of human connection and maybe the art and science of

(01:04:00):
art and science of human connection. I believe it's human connection.
And so this is a bit of a cheat because
I heard her say something before I got her book.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Okay, we're going for the content here.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
So but she she actually kind of what we were
just talking about. She talks about like social health as
this basically like this overlooked pillar of our overall health.
Like we think of mental health, we think of of
physical health, we even think of emotional health, but we
don't think of social health. And like how connected are we?

(01:04:34):
How much are we investing in those connections? And that
really moved me and we and and also in a
discussion on AI, because I'm very concerned about AI in
the like relationship space, in the dating space, and a
lot of platforms are using a lot of AI, and
there really marketing AIS like the solution to disconnection, and

(01:04:59):
I think that's a really slippery slope. And and she
said about AI that the love is real, like the
love that you feel like for these AI companions or whatever,
but the lover is not. And I was like, oh,
that just sums it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Up, so encapsulates. Oh yeah, it does, yeah, oh yeah,
I'm really intrigued by AI and I do a lot
of professionally involved a lot and so but I hadn't
I'll be honest, I had not thought about in the
context of love and matchmaking or dating. So whole another
conversation for another day. What's your go to lazy dinner
to cook?

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Oh? What's my go to lazy dinner? I mean, oh gosh,
not take I really I usually eat a salad for
dinner every night there and but my salad is like
elaborate because it has a lot of ingredients and I
chop do a lot of chopping, So it's not really
lazy because it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
Takes me, like it's the meat class is terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
It takes like anywhere from like thirty to forty minutes
to make my salad. So it's not really lazy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
But that's my go to TV measures at easy, Yeah,
go to love it. What is your favorite romantic gesture?
And I would say to receive Ooh.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
Well, I'm a I'm a big acts of service person,
so a really big romantic gesture is like, oh my god,
you got my car washed. Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
That is yeah, I love you, that is amazing. Noted
Ben has never gotten my car washed, so I'm gonna
point that out to him, getting him in trouble. I
love that. And the last, if you're honest, what is
something that you're grateful for right now?

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Oh? Oh I'm grateful for turning fifty. Yeah, yeah, super
excited about this next decade of my life. Yeah, good
things are happening.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Oh And clearly you are open to good things happening
to you. And this was so much fun. Your energy
is amazing. I feel bad that we haven't kept in
touch more and we're going to now and I'm so
excited to be reconnected with you. And I will link
this in the description, But where can people find you
online if they want to take your archetype quiz, if
they want to reach out to you? Because you're clearly

(01:07:25):
amazing and amazing to talk to and so smart and thorough.
And I love how you're focused on the process and
not like just the result on what you're getting too,
because I think it's helpful. We're almost like regardless of
if you're like needing the true love or just also
trying to have true love for yourself. I think it's
relevant to everyone in their journey.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
So where can people do thank you. Well, I'm easy
to find. I'm at Dear Franny all the places. I
also have a podcast called Dear Franny And if you
people can go to my website, which is Francesca Hogy
dot com and take the dating archetype quiz. You can
also go to the links in any of my bios
on social and Instagram or threads or Facebook or the places.

(01:08:07):
And oh and I'm also launching a Patreon so that
will also be Patreon slash Dear Franny, so people can
find me there as well.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Amazing, Well, thank you so much for joining us. I
hope that all of our listeners loved this as much
as I did. This was so cool and the theme
of this season for me is human performance, and I
think that the self love and how that then translates
outwards is so important to our own performance holistically. So

(01:08:36):
thank you. I hope listeners please share this episode with
people who might find it helpful reach out to fran
issues so great and as always, thank you for letting
us be honest with you and I look forward to
seeing you in two weeks