April 26, 2024 • 35 mins
You may know her as the Grammy-nominated singer, or for playing the cunning and iconic Wilhelmina Slater on “Ugly Betty.” But before all that, Vanessa Williams was a bright young college student from New York who would make history as the first Black Miss America, in 1984. And yet before she could complete her term, she would be dramatically dethroned — in a nude photo scandal that would ignite a torrent of racism and see her branded as “the pageant's own Hester Prynn.” In this episode, Jess and Susie revisit the incredible making, and the staggering undoing, of the first Black Miss America.
FOR MORE:
- Books: Looking for Miss America: A Pageant’s 100-Year Quest to Define Womanhood, by Margot Mifflin, and There She Was: The Secret History of Miss America, by Amy Artsinger
- Articles: Goodbye, Swimsuit Competition. Hello, ‘Miss America 2.0.’ and Here’s What You Didn’t See on Miss America (both New York Times, both by Jess)
- Listen: Glamorous Trash, a Celebrity Book Club Podcast, in which Jess and Susie join host Chelsea Devantez to talk about Vanessa Williams’ memoir
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You were the first black woman to be Miss America
nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, was there a downside to being first? Of course?
The downside is you get the brunt of all the anger.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Most people know Vanessa Williams the Grammy nominated singer or
Vanessa Williams the Emmy.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Antoni nominated actress.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
But in September of nineteen eighty three, a twenty year
old Vanessa Williams became the first ever black woman to
be crowned Miss America.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And our new Miss America, here's Vanessa. Way out of question.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
To see a black woman take that perch to represent,
as a song claimed, the beauty ideal, the dreams of
a million girls, a dream of for some, it felt
as big as when Jackie Robinson desegregated Major League Baseball.
But William's historic victory would be short lived. Before she
(00:51):
could complete her term, she was dethroned in a nude
photo scandal, and one that raised all sorts of questions
about race, jen and what it really means to make
progress in America.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Cusievannaccarum.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a
cultural moment from the past that shaped.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Us and that we just can't stop thinking about today.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
We're talking about Vanessa Williams, who made history as the
first Black Miss America, but whose wind was overshadowed by
a scandal that stripped her of her crown. We're also
talking about Miss America, the beauty pageant that, for more
than a century sent a particular message about what womanhood
was supposed to look like, young, beIN, unmarried, and white.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
So, Jess, I'm very excited to talk about Vanessa Williams
and Miss America today. I feel like I know a
little bit about both topics, but you're going to teach
me so much. Why did you pick this topic?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I was a big Vanessa Williams fan in the I
guess early nineties, but it was only years later that
I learned she had actually been Miss America. And then
it was years after that I learned she was the
first black Miss America. And then it was only a
few years ago, as I was actually doing some research
around Miss America that I learned she'd in fact been
(02:10):
stripped of her crown.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Yeah, I didn't actually know the Miss America thing either.
I obviously knew who Vanessa Williams was. She was a
singer and I liked her music, and then she was
on that show Ugly Betty. But I had no idea
that this was part of her history. Why was she dethroned?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, I mean, I guess dethrone may not be the
technical term for it. But she was given seventy two
hours to resign from Miss America, a handback her crown.
And this came after a series of nude photos of
her that she had taken with another woman released. These
were modeling shots, she was super young. She never thought
they would see the light of day. She did not
(02:48):
consent to them being released, and they were sold to
Penthouse magazine had made public.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So there's many layers to this story, and we'll talk
about a lot of them. But it's also one of
those cases where racism and sexism and homophobia all kind
of coalesced around her story and created this perfect scandal.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Okay, And why Miss America, Because you know, you don't
seem to me like someone who'd be super interested in beauty.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Pageants was like a Miss America than what? It is
not my natural inclination.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, Actually, I'm trying to think. No, I did not
grow up watching Miss America. That was certainly not something
my parents would have condoned. As we I think I've
talked about at length. Seattle no cable television really not
into anything perpetuating that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Did you watch it? I did?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Yeah, I mean I just assumed that every kid in America,
or every girl certainly at some point watched Miss America right.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Now, not in crunchy Seattle, not in grunty Seattle.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I mean we, I think, as I mentioned, also did
not have a TV for a couple of years, But
in the years that we did have TV, it turned
me into an absolute addict, like they had taken away
a drug and I was jonesing for more. And I
think also as an immigrant, Miss America feels very much
like a thing that helps you understand the culture you've entered, right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
You know, sort of like Baywatch ESK in that way.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, Like it helped me understand the concept of what
it meant to be beautiful in America, for better or
for worse.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Right, we're gonna get into all of that. It's so disturbing.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, But so I ended up when I was reporting
at the Times covering Miss America at length. And I'm
trying to think of why I got first interested in
I think it's because in nineteen sixty eight there was
this famous protest.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
How much am I offered but number one please wime.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Amack a property where feminists went and they threw bras
and girdles and false eyelashes and anything else that represented
like unfair beauty standards into this trash can at the
Miss America patch.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
America gotta be Miss America.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I mean that sounds amazing. Let's go to that protest now.
It is amazing. It's a famous protest. And actually, have you.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Ever heard the term braw burning like it used to
refer to feminists?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Oh of course, yeah, I mean braw burning seems like
it was like what everyone defined as the seventies feminist right.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Personal bra burning is a myth.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
No one ever burned bras, but it originated is actually
at this pageant in the late sixties when the women
they planned to burn their bras in this trash can
that they swear everything into, but they couldn't get the.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Right permits, Oh my god, and so they didn't. They
just threw them into the trash can.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And they called it a freedom trash can, and you know,
the press covered it, but one reporter was not able
to make it to see that they didn't really burn anything,
but like went with the braw burning headline, and thus
bra burning was born.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Oh wow, I didn't realize that nobody burned bras? Did
they eventually burn bras because they thought it was a thing.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
No nobody ever burned bronze, I don't think. I mean,
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Maybe in life people have burned their bras, but no,
it's fully a myth that emerged out of this Miss
America protest.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Okay, that is a cool piece of history.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
And then in twenty eighteen, the height of the Me
Too movement, I learned and ended up reporting on that
Miss America was trying to, you know, kind of remodel
itself to be woker and more inclusive and like less grossed.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, it seems like that ship sailed a long time ago. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So, so I ended up covering a lot of the
changes to the pageant.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I see, And so, if I remember correctly, one of
the changes was swimsuits, right, because I remember that they
used to have to do like a section that was swimsuits.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, that's like what made Miss America miss America, right,
the swimsuit competition.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
In the swim food category MATA.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And now they don't do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So in twenty eighteen they had a new president takeover,
and yes, they got rid of the swimsuit competition.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
And then there was always like the Q and A
section which I don't want to insult beauty pageant girl,
but you know, occasionally a clip would go viral where
it just didn't make any sense.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I believe that our education like such as a.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
South Africa and a Dirac everywhere like such as and yes,
and actually this is maybe a good place to point
out that Miss America is different from the Miss USA
slash Universe pageant, Like that's the Donald Trump one, right, right,
But I think Miss America was and maybe is, I
don't know, considered the more sophisticated of the two.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Right, it's like the gold standard of pageants, Like it's
the classy one for lack of a better way of
distinguishing them.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, it's been around the longest.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
You know. Miss Congeniality was not made about the Miss
USA pageant. It was made about Miss America.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Describe you're perfectly I'd have to say April twenty fifth,
because it's not too hot, not too cold. All you
need is to light jacket. I mean.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Truly a great film, by the way, so I mean
maybe film is pushing it. A very fun movie is
what I'll say about its reality. Okay, so before we
get into Vanessa Williams and her historic victory, is there
anything more we need to know about the history of
Miss America.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, I think there's a few things. I mean, it
does have a really fascinating history. So it began in
nineteen twenty one in Atlantic City. That's always where it's
taken place, save for a few years when it moved
to Vegas, but that's really been its home.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So nineteen twenty.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
One, this is a year after Women's suffrage passes, when
women were granted the right to vote, and it was
conceived of as a way to extend the summer tourist
season past Labor Day.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Atlantic City is a tourist destination.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
The beauty parade in the Paymous American Watering Place, Atlantic City.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Who shall hold the title Miss America?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Each station in the Union has sent a representative to
compete for the crown of girlhood beauty.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
But one of the really interesting things, and I actually
learned this in Rebecca Taster's book All the Single Ladies,
is that the sashes, the iconic sashes that the Miss
Americas where we can all picture them.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, I can picture it, were.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Actually based on or modeled on the votes for women
sashes that the suffragests wore.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Isn't that a piece of history? Yeah? That is actually shocking.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Another interesting thing is that at this time women were
barred from wearing revealing swimwear in public or beachware in public.
So the original Atlantic City event actually had to get
a temporary suspension of the span so that they could
do the simsuit competition.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Am I remembering correctly? That they weren't even allowed to
wear bikinis.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
For the swimsuit competition, Like it had to be one
pieces because it had to be like dignified.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
I'm not sure when the pageant allowed it or not,
but they kind of weren't a thing back in the
nineteen twenties when it got started. So like the vintages
make images are all these like very cute one pieces
with low cut legs.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Another interesting thing is that you hear the origins of
Miss America, and you think, like, okay, so, like which
men decided to dream this thing up, like get the
ladies on the.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Boardwalk, put them in some swimsuits, extend the tourist season.
And that was true in the beginning, but it was
act actually a.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Woman, Leonora Slaughter, who becomes pretty famous, who really makes
Miss America into what I think we remember it as.
Like she introduces the talent portion and runs it for
nearly three decades, starting in the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 6 (10:13):
Again the great thing for all fifty two contesting residing
the pageants executive director Leonora Slaughter.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Interesting, this is kind of like the Barbie story, right.
People assume Barbie was a male invention, but it was
a woman who invented it.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yeah, And so what happens is over the years, Miss
America becomes like this pretty major cultural event. At its
height in the nineteen sixties, three and four American households
watched it. In an article that I was doing a
few years ago, I actually interviewed a woman, an author,
alex Kate Schulmann. She's now in her eighties and she
was one of the organizers of that nineteen sixty eight
(10:48):
feminist protest, and she said to me, you know, everybody
tuned into Miss America back then. It was like the Oscars,
and that was just so surprising to me as someone
who hadn't grown up in that era.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I mean, that's not surprising to me.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
I obviously I didn't grow up in the nineteen sixties,
but even when I was growing up in the eighties
and nineties, I remember, you know, there just weren't that
many channels on television, so if there was like a
big event, everybody watched like that was kind of the vibe.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
You know, right right, appointment viewing.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
The other thing is that there's long been this controversy
about what Miss America does with scholarship money and how
much of that money actually goes to contestants. But the
organization itself has long touted itself as more than a
beauty pageant, not just a pageant. You know, they're the
largest provider, they say, of scholarship money to young women,
(11:36):
and the women take part in community service. They try
to at least frame it as more than just a pageant.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Scholarships I received as Miss Minnesota of nineteen fifty six
helped to pay my college expenses. I'm glad I chose
a career that gives me the opportunity to help prepare
these wonderful children for life.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
In the nineties, y.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You know, over the years, Miss America has been the
subject of mockery and school born. It's been opposed by
religious groups and women's rights activists. Love when those two
groups come together. I love it when those two groups
can come together on something. And it's also, I think,
a reminder that we still live in a world today
where women are judged on their bodies. John Oliver actually
had a really funny segment on this a few years ago.
Speaker 7 (12:18):
Last Sunday was they Miss America pageants And through it
all the swimsuits, the dance numbers, the inexplicable ventriloquism, it
was it was very difficult not to think, how the
is this still happening?
Speaker 4 (12:48):
This is this kind of arcane thing. What are the
rules for Miss America? I remember that they're very strict.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, so okay, how do you get to be in
Miss America?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Well, there are a lot of rules, and even today
the rule of state that first you must be a
woman between seventeen and twenty five years of age. You
cannot be married, previously married or divorced. You must not
have any children. You can't have been previously pregnant. You
can't be the adoptive parent of any child.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Okay, wait, I have questions about this.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
How can they verify that you've never been pregnant?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Like people have miscarriages and abortions.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
They're not checking your health records, Like, that's a crazy rule.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Obviously you can't check. I guess they're relying on the
honor system. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of Miss Americas
have had that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
You also can't compete if you've ever been convicted of
a criminal offense.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I feel like that's a little less shocking.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
But all of these things, to see them printed out
on papers produced strange, I can imagine.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Are there any other crazy rules? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So, Actually, the most infamous of these rules was known
as rule number seven. And this rule stated in the
early years, This was until about the nineteen forties that
contestants to Miss America had to be vote.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Of good health and of the white race.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
I'm sorry, what like I just made like a comically
shocked face.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, and it wasn't enough that they just declared they
were a quote of the white race. Contestants actually had
to provide a detailed accounting of their ancestry.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Oh wow, so not a great history. Also not a
great history.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And you know, the overt of the white race rule
was dropped in the nineteen forties, and interestingly, in the
nineteen sixties there was actually a separate Miss Black America
contest that was also held in Atlantic City in direct
protest of the pageant.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Okay, but it would be another decade before a black
contestant would actually walk on the stage.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Until this year.
Speaker 6 (14:44):
The Miss America pageant could have been called Miss White America.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
But by nineteen eighty three, which is Vanessa's year, only
about a dozen black women had ever walked to the
Miss America stage.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So history was really being made.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Not just in her, but in that there were four
After American contestants total, which was the most ever in
a single year.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Okay, so they're making some progress. Sets a scene for me,
it's nineteen eighty three. Is there a lot of big hair?
Are there shoulder pads? What's Vanessa Williams year like?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, a lot of sequins, a lot of shoulder pads,
big hair, And actually we should probably note that while
Miss America had reached its peak in the sixties, this
is when three and four American households were watching. By
the eighties, when Vanessa is there, it's actually really struggling.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's kind of fallen out of step with the culture.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
I mean, you can imagine it's the eighties, like it's
crazy that this thing is still going on.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Oh, that's interesting because I sort of associated with the
eighties because that's when I watched it. But that's interesting
that it wasn't actually such a cultural juggernaut at that point. Yeah,
I know from pageant moms and toddlers and tiaras and
Honey Boobooh that many girl gets started at a very
young age.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Was Vanessa a pageant girl? Oh?
Speaker 3 (15:56):
That's a good question, because you're right, so many of
these pageant peopleeople do this their whole lives. They get
started really young, the parents are really involved. They work
their way up from like locals to state to whatever.
And Vanessa was actually pretty unique in that she wasn't
that except for one thing that is hilarious and would
come up later after she won Her parents when she
(16:17):
was born had put on her birth announcement here she
is Miss America.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Oh my god, that's so cute. Isn't that funny? It's
pretty adorable, And I should.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
At this point I should cite Margot Mifflin, the author
of a really amazing book on Miss America that has
so much of this great history. So we have read
through that and some of these references I am taking
from her.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Okay, so they put this on her birth announcement. But
she's not like a pageant girl. She doesn't compete in
pageants when she's a child. No.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
From everything that I've read, including her memoir, she has
a pretty normal upbringing. She's born in nineteen sixty three
in a pretty small town called Millwood, New York.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
It's a suburb of New York City.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Her parents were music teachers, which is pretty cool and
gives you a sense of, you know, how she became artistic.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
She became a singer.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Ultimately she wanted to be an actress, and they were
really supportive of that. So she sang in her high
school choir and she played the French horn in her band,
which I love so cute, and then she went on
to be a musical theater major at Syracuse University.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
She writes in her memoir, which.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Came out in twenty twelve, she actually co authored it
with her mom, that she, you know, she didn't have
any desire to be a be queen, let alone Miss America,
but she wanted a scholarship. She could use a little
money to help her fund her junior year semester abroad.
I mean, so that's kind of how this whole thing
it started.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I don't know how I know this, but I think
she was scouted, right, she was actually approached to enter.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
You know so many facts about things. Yes, you're right.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So she basically she gets discovered singing in her college.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
She's in the.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Choir or someone sees her, and this person encourages her
to enter what was the Miss Greater Syracuse, which was
like a local competition that feeds into Miss New York,
which then feeds into Miss America. So she does, she
enters it, and she works her way up all in
a matter of a few months, and of course she
starts getting noticed in the press, who begin asking her questions.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Like, now, you're a young black woman, do you think
the country is ready for a black Miss America? Well,
I certainly would be a first, and I wouldn't mind
that I wouldn't mind setting a trend setting making ways.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
It's really a testament to her talent that it happens
so quickly, because there are girls who grow up trying
to do this their whole lives. Right, So she does
get to Miss America. What happens next?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Okay, so it's Miss America at nineteen eighty four, but
it actually happens in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Why from convention Hall?
Speaker 7 (18:39):
And it look like saidy love Miss America that journey.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
And you know, she gets there and it's like she's
a national born star. Hear that she's kind of meant
to be. On stage, she wows the judges. She's gorgeous.
She impresses them with how smart and confident she is.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I think that it isn't important for education to be endowed.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
With a good financial backing.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
She competes in this beautiful but very eighties pale pink
sequin sparkly gown that has this like gauzy bulb that
sort of looks like a like a shower puff like
I don't know to.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This guy, like a.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Way to older lazy puff on her yes, like she
could hardly see over anyway. And her hair is very
eighties tease bangs. She actually writes in her memoir that
she really only needed help from a coach for one
of the questions, and that was why the pageant contestants
had to compete in swimsuits, because you know, maybe she
(19:43):
is the answer.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Now Miss America finalist in swimsuits, New York and Essa Williams.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
She was told to say a fit body reflects a
FIP mind. Very very true, and so this all leads
to her victory. On September seventeenth, nineteen eighty three, she
is crowned Miss America.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And our new Miss America, yes finas away.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Out of.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
What's crazy is that I know it's ridiculous and it's
going to end badly for her, but I still feel
like a swell of pride for her when it makes
that announcement.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
It's like Avlovian on my partner with my brain.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
And that music is so evocative in a way, and
you know, watching the winning moment, she's clearly excited. She's beaming,
she does the walk down the stage doing like the
iconic wave. She's wearing her crown, she looks every bit
the part, and notably, she says this at the first
press conference after her win.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I hope to do the best time I can to
well be to get in America, to have to get
every person in America, no matter what race, the creed, or.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Color they are. So what happens next.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
The coverage of the event is actually pretty interesting. You know,
for years, newspapers and magazines I think had sent multiple
reporters to cover the Miss America pageant, and especially during
like the sixties protest years when there was like big
feminist uprising career, everyone was covering it. There's tons of coverage.
But by this time, as we mentioned, it's kind of
(21:12):
fallen out of favor.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
I wonder, is that because of the kind of women's
lib working girl vibe of the Times.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I mean maybe, I'm not sure the answer, But what
ends up happening is that a lot of outlets as
a result, are really caught off guard in terms of
just how historic this thing is. Oh that's so, you know,
The Washington Post the year prior has decided that like,
nobody cares about Miss America anymore, and so they opted
not to send a recorder. The New York Times doesn't
(21:39):
have anyone there either, and they run a wire story
which oddly doesn't have a photo of Vanessa but only
pictures her runner up.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
That was a weird detail that I didn't understand. It's
very weird.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
And then there's other just funny details that give you
a sense of how people covered these events. There's like
this whole debate about whether or not she cried as
she went on her inaugural walk to get her and
the Chicago Tribune said she didn't cry. The New York
Times so she did cry, and anyway, I forbid, right, God,
I love to police a woman's crying.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
The point is.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
It becomes clear pretty quickly that this is a big deal,
and so the media is playing ketchup.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Okay, so we have this historic victory and reporters are
scrambling to catch up. What is the impact of this?
I imagine this becomes a huge news event.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah it does.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I mean it really does go down as one of
the biggest news events over the year.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
And a lot of that has to do with the
fact that she is the first.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
So some like in her when to Jackie Robinson actually
integrating baseball, Shirley Chisholm, the first black woman elected to Congress,
wais in She says of the victory at the time.
Thank God, I've lived long enough that this nation has
been able to select the beautiful young woman of color
to be Miss America. And Vanessa actually talks about this too.
Here she is in a press junket post victory, being.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Able to say that you are the first and being
in history. It's been making so many people proud of
something that never happened. They never probably they never thought
they would see it in their lifetime, and having it happen.
I think it's a tremendous honor.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah, I mean, you can see why this would feel
really significant, right. I mean, if you're a young black
girl in America, you've never seen yourself represented in this
thing that's held up right as the epitome of what
it means to be beautiful in America.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I think that's to what made it feel so important,
even though by that point, you know, a lot of
people sort of dismissed Miss America.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
The other thing that was happening at the time is
that this is occurring right around the same time that
there's this major backlash to affirmative action happening. So this
is when the Reagan administration was trying to roll back
workforce diversity measures, and like pundits were on the air
talking about her first discrimination.
Speaker 6 (23:55):
We're all aware that recent opinion polls have indicated that
while a large majority of the American public support affirmative action,
over eighty percent are also opposed to reverse discriminations.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
I mean, that is wild, because it feels like we've
just come full circle and everyone's doing that same conversation
is happening again right now.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
It's wild, I know, but so it is coming amid
this political moment too. And you can see this in
what happens in the press coverage after where she's doing
all these interviews and she keeps being asked things along
the lines of, so, are you a token? Was a
subpermative action? Don't you consider yourself too a de facto
spokesman for black America?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Now? I think so, But that's something that I knew
that was going to happen, and I was prepared for it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Her responses are actually so moving and telling because she
really has to emphasize her qualifications. So at a certain
point she says, you know, I was chosen because I
was qualified for the position. Yeah, as if we're talking
about a job position, the fact that I was black
was not a factor. I've always had to try harder
in my life to achieve things, So this is regular.
(25:09):
At another point, she really emphasizes the importance of education
and her character and hard work. You know, she says,
quite bluntly, I'm ambitious, I have a lot of drive,
and I work hard to get somewhere. And the thing
that's nice before this all comes crashing down is that
the Miss America organization actually really backs her up. Like
(25:29):
this guy, Albert Marx, who is the chairman of the
board back then, says repeatedly, I can assure you that this.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Young lady got here on her merits.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I mean I believe that because did Miss America even
care enough about inclusion for it to be from an inaction?
I mean, it doesn't seem like they were very worried about,
you know, being inclusive. I mean it's interesting because when
she says being black isn't a factor, it is a
factor she had to work harder, exactly. You know, it's
kind of an interesting dichotomy. So what's it actually like
(26:02):
for her to be Miss America? Being the first black
Miss America must have been a really interesting experience.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty crazy.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
You know, Miss America's traditionally get to do things like
ride on floats at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I'm going to be singing New York, New York on
the big Apple float.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Then, like they meet important people and they sort of
act as ambassadors to their communities.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
But hers was really on a different level.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
She sits next to President Reagan at the White House
at this state dinner for West Germany.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I don't think it's a coincidence, for one thing, that
you had a call of congratulations from President Reagan.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
He's never called a winning Miss America before that.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I'm aware of that year, there's a Martin Luther King
Junior Birthday rally in Atlanta, and she stands there and
attends alongside Coretta Scott King and the first black astronaut.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
So you know, she's standing with heroic figures.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
It's interesting because she's taken something that's, you know, genuinely
pretty silly and she's imbued it with a kind of significance, right, Yeah,
and it's serious to something interesting about that. Yeah, It's
like this thing can be silly but also meaningful, And
she really proves.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
That, yeah, and I think that aside from that, I mean,
she just had a huge number of fans. Like, at
one point in one of the articles about it, a
reporter notes that people approached her with a frenzy once
reserved for Mick Jagger and just departed with ecstatic smiles
associated with religious experience.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
So people really love her.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
I mean, that makes sense. She really was so stunning.
When you see the pictures and the videos of the time,
you can see why she has sort of this charisma
that really draws people to her.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
And yet at the same time, though it's not all celebration, like,
there are real racist undertones to a lot of what
happens in the aftermath.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
What does that look like? Is the backlash immediate.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Some of it is more overt than other parts of it,
but it does begin pretty immediately. The very night that
she's crowned, one of the other attendees of the pageant,
who is a former Miss America, makes some crack to
someone that she's with about how she must be quote
heading back to Harlem. Then later in the week, Johnny
Carson on his late night show makes this joke of
(28:05):
putting joke in quotations because it's not funny, but he says,
did you hear we have a black Miss America? I
bet you didn't know that mister T was one of
the judges. I mean, that joke is just dumb, racist
and dumb. And it's interesting too because she says at
this time that she hadn't really experienced bald faced bigotry
at this point, and so her parents say something to
(28:27):
the effect of like, look, you are a public figure
now and we can't shelter you anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
And it gets really nasty.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
There are racist, threatening letters sent to her parents' house,
just awful, awful things written and said. She has to
have extra security wherever she goes. Armed guards are posted
outside her hotel room. She talks at one point about
how they were actual sharpshooters placed on the tops of
buildings when she had her first parade in the South.
(28:55):
Just wild, wild, like this is the eighties and there
are sharpshooters to protect this Miss Amarica.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I imagine there were so many death threats.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Really, I'm sure we don't even know the half of it,
but I think it was just awful. There's even another
detail that she said, where you know, usually when you
have Miss America going to some town or for a parade,
they ride in a convertible like that's a thing. But
she could not ride in a convertible because she was
too exposed.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
God, that's really sad, Like it just really makes me
sad for her that she had to have all these
security measures that weren't required for other people.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Well, and her family too, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
So her mother, Helen Williams, co authored Vanessa's memoir with her,
and she writes in that book that we had no
idea that her Miss America rain would quickly become a
reign of.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Terror for us. That's how she describes it, a reign
of terror.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And it's interesting too because you know, at the time,
you're assuming that a lot of this is coming from
white folks, but she was also being criticized by black
people as well, who I think dismissed the notion that
her crowning was a racial breakthrough. You know, she was
pretty light skinned, she had these beautiful green eyes. It
was later revealed that her longtime boyfriend was white, and
(30:03):
so she received these really vicious letters that called her
a race trader as well.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Yeah, because it's sort of this idea that you are
embraced by your community in one way, but also rejected
in another, like you exactly never quite good enough for
any of the people who feel invested in your win.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yeah, And Vanessa talked about this a bit in an
interview she did in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I mean I had racial problems when I first won.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
I got death threats from the Klan because I was black.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I got people from.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I had black people in America
said she doesn't look black enough.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
It kind of reminds me of Robin Gibbons, right, who
is kind of not celebrated as being black enough. And
that must also be really complicated history for Vanessa to
have to navigate.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
But this is happening over the course of the year, right.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
She almost completes the full term as Miss America.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Yes, it's been many months now, and it's interesting to
hear her in later years talk about this time, because
you know, she sounds a bit torn, like on the
one hand, she's what twenty twenty one years old, She's
getting to travel the country, like, she's meeting all these
incredible people. It's an entree in a lot of ways
to what she really wants, which is to be in
the entertainment business. But at the same time there's this
(31:17):
racism and everywhere she goes people are asking her about
like the political issues or the racial politics of the day.
And actually, in fairness to her, at what point she
answers that question by saying, Hey, I'm only twenty years old,
Like what qualifies me to answer that?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Which fairly? That is, yeah, very fair?
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Like why is she suddenly being thrust into this position
as like a leader on you know, racial politics.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
That's really a strange position for her to have been
forced into.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
And I think that's one of the things about being
a first of anything too. It's like you are expected
to answer for the whole group, and then if something
bad happens, you are again expected to answer for the
whole group.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
Okay, so we do know that eventually something bad does
happen and she gets be thrown what happened?
Speaker 3 (32:05):
So what happens is nine weeks from the end of
her rant, so she's really very close to this year
post being over. She learns that nude photos that she
had taken when she was nineteen years old were going
to appear in Penthouse and the Kicker, the nude photos
were with another.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Woman, and she hadn't consented to these photos being released
in any way. Right, No, the.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Photographer sold these images to the magazine without her permission
or her knowledge, and so the way she finds out
about them is actually during an interview with a reporter.
This is happening on the phone, and the reporter kind
of drops it in at the very end of the interview,
essentially saying, you know, by the way, a source mentioned
that there would be these nude photos of you appearing
(32:51):
in penthouse, Like, can you confirm that this is true?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Oh my god. She must have been so blindsided. She
had no idea what was coming.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
No no idea, and obviously she's extremely rattled when the
reporter asks for this, so she denies it and quickly
hangs up. But she also knows that these photos are
out there, and so before she can even figure out
what to do, Miss America gets wind of the photos,
They see them, and they give her a public ultimatum.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
Miss America, Vanessa Williams took off her clothes and now
she's being asked to give up her crown within seventy
two hours.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
That's Tom Broker, right, I would recognize his voice anywhere,
and he really delivers that line. So she's given seventy
two hours to decide what to do, yes.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
And she spends that time hold up in her childhood home.
She's with her parents, she's told them. At this point,
her lawyer is there, her publicist is there, and they're
essentially debating what she should.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Do and what does she decide to do?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Well, Susie, I'm going to tell you all about that,
as well as Vanessa's remarkable comeback in part two. Before
we go, I wanted to give a quick shout out
to two authors whose books were instrumental.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
In our research of this episode.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
The first is Margot Mifflin, whose book is Looking for
Miss America, a Pageant's one hundred year quest to define womanhood.
And the second is Amy Argittsinger, whose book is There
She Was, The Secret History of Miss America. They're both
fascinating reads and you can find links to them in
our show notes.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking
about and want us to explore in a future episode.
Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find
us on Instagram at in Retropod.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
If you love this podcast, please rate and review us
on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you
hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,
which we may or may not delete.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett
and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books
Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media.
Anson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our engineer
and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon Atia
is our researcher and associate producer.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Our executive producer from the Media is Cindy Levy. Our
executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stem and Katrina Norbel.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda
Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
We are your hosts Susie Bannacarum and Jessica Bennett.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
We are also executive producers.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
For even more, check out in retropod dot com.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
See you next week.
You were the first black woman to be Miss America
nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, was there a downside to being first? Of course?
The downside is you get the brunt of all the anger.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Most people know Vanessa Williams the Grammy nominated singer or
Vanessa Williams the Emmy.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Antoni nominated actress.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
But in September of nineteen eighty three, a twenty year
old Vanessa Williams became the first ever black woman to
be crowned Miss America.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And our new Miss America, here's Vanessa. Way out of question.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
To see a black woman take that perch to represent,
as a song claimed, the beauty ideal, the dreams of
a million girls, a dream of for some, it felt
as big as when Jackie Robinson desegregated Major League Baseball.
But William's historic victory would be short lived. Before she
(00:51):
could complete her term, she was dethroned in a nude
photo scandal, and one that raised all sorts of questions
about race, jen and what it really means to make
progress in America.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Cusievannaccarum.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a
cultural moment from the past that shaped.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Us and that we just can't stop thinking about today.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
We're talking about Vanessa Williams, who made history as the
first Black Miss America, but whose wind was overshadowed by
a scandal that stripped her of her crown. We're also
talking about Miss America, the beauty pageant that, for more
than a century sent a particular message about what womanhood
was supposed to look like, young, beIN, unmarried, and white.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
So, Jess, I'm very excited to talk about Vanessa Williams
and Miss America today. I feel like I know a
little bit about both topics, but you're going to teach
me so much. Why did you pick this topic?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I was a big Vanessa Williams fan in the I
guess early nineties, but it was only years later that
I learned she had actually been Miss America. And then
it was years after that I learned she was the
first black Miss America. And then it was only a
few years ago, as I was actually doing some research
around Miss America that I learned she'd in fact been
(02:10):
stripped of her crown.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Yeah, I didn't actually know the Miss America thing either.
I obviously knew who Vanessa Williams was. She was a
singer and I liked her music, and then she was
on that show Ugly Betty. But I had no idea
that this was part of her history. Why was she dethroned?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, I mean, I guess dethrone may not be the
technical term for it. But she was given seventy two
hours to resign from Miss America, a handback her crown.
And this came after a series of nude photos of
her that she had taken with another woman released. These
were modeling shots, she was super young. She never thought
they would see the light of day. She did not
(02:48):
consent to them being released, and they were sold to
Penthouse magazine had made public.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So there's many layers to this story, and we'll talk
about a lot of them. But it's also one of
those cases where racism and sexism and homophobia all kind
of coalesced around her story and created this perfect scandal.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Okay, And why Miss America, Because you know, you don't
seem to me like someone who'd be super interested in beauty.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Pageants was like a Miss America than what? It is
not my natural inclination.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, Actually, I'm trying to think. No, I did not
grow up watching Miss America. That was certainly not something
my parents would have condoned. As we I think I've
talked about at length. Seattle no cable television really not
into anything perpetuating that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Did you watch it? I did?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Yeah, I mean I just assumed that every kid in America,
or every girl certainly at some point watched Miss America right.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Now, not in crunchy Seattle, not in grunty Seattle.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I mean we, I think, as I mentioned, also did
not have a TV for a couple of years, But
in the years that we did have TV, it turned
me into an absolute addict, like they had taken away
a drug and I was jonesing for more. And I
think also as an immigrant, Miss America feels very much
like a thing that helps you understand the culture you've entered, right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
You know, sort of like Baywatch ESK in that way.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, Like it helped me understand the concept of what
it meant to be beautiful in America, for better or
for worse.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Right, we're gonna get into all of that. It's so disturbing.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, But so I ended up when I was reporting
at the Times covering Miss America at length. And I'm
trying to think of why I got first interested in
I think it's because in nineteen sixty eight there was
this famous protest.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
How much am I offered but number one please wime.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Amack a property where feminists went and they threw bras
and girdles and false eyelashes and anything else that represented
like unfair beauty standards into this trash can at the
Miss America patch.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
America gotta be Miss America.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I mean that sounds amazing. Let's go to that protest now.
It is amazing. It's a famous protest. And actually, have you.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Ever heard the term braw burning like it used to
refer to feminists?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Oh of course, yeah, I mean braw burning seems like
it was like what everyone defined as the seventies feminist right.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Personal bra burning is a myth.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
No one ever burned bras, but it originated is actually
at this pageant in the late sixties when the women
they planned to burn their bras in this trash can
that they swear everything into, but they couldn't get the.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Right permits, Oh my god, and so they didn't. They
just threw them into the trash can.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And they called it a freedom trash can, and you know,
the press covered it, but one reporter was not able
to make it to see that they didn't really burn anything,
but like went with the braw burning headline, and thus
bra burning was born.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Oh wow, I didn't realize that nobody burned bras? Did
they eventually burn bras because they thought it was a thing.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
No nobody ever burned bronze, I don't think. I mean,
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Maybe in life people have burned their bras, but no,
it's fully a myth that emerged out of this Miss
America protest.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Okay, that is a cool piece of history.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
And then in twenty eighteen, the height of the Me
Too movement, I learned and ended up reporting on that
Miss America was trying to, you know, kind of remodel
itself to be woker and more inclusive and like less grossed.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, it seems like that ship sailed a long time ago. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So, so I ended up covering a lot of the
changes to the pageant.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I see, And so, if I remember correctly, one of
the changes was swimsuits, right, because I remember that they
used to have to do like a section that was swimsuits.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, that's like what made Miss America miss America, right,
the swimsuit competition.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
In the swim food category MATA.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And now they don't do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So in twenty eighteen they had a new president takeover,
and yes, they got rid of the swimsuit competition.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
And then there was always like the Q and A
section which I don't want to insult beauty pageant girl,
but you know, occasionally a clip would go viral where
it just didn't make any sense.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I believe that our education like such as a.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
South Africa and a Dirac everywhere like such as and yes,
and actually this is maybe a good place to point
out that Miss America is different from the Miss USA
slash Universe pageant, Like that's the Donald Trump one, right, right,
But I think Miss America was and maybe is, I
don't know, considered the more sophisticated of the two.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Right, it's like the gold standard of pageants, Like it's
the classy one for lack of a better way of
distinguishing them.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, it's been around the longest.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
You know. Miss Congeniality was not made about the Miss
USA pageant. It was made about Miss America.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Describe you're perfectly I'd have to say April twenty fifth,
because it's not too hot, not too cold. All you
need is to light jacket. I mean.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Truly a great film, by the way, so I mean
maybe film is pushing it. A very fun movie is
what I'll say about its reality. Okay, so before we
get into Vanessa Williams and her historic victory, is there
anything more we need to know about the history of
Miss America.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, I think there's a few things. I mean, it
does have a really fascinating history. So it began in
nineteen twenty one in Atlantic City. That's always where it's
taken place, save for a few years when it moved
to Vegas, but that's really been its home.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So nineteen twenty.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
One, this is a year after Women's suffrage passes, when
women were granted the right to vote, and it was
conceived of as a way to extend the summer tourist
season past Labor Day.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Atlantic City is a tourist destination.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
The beauty parade in the Paymous American Watering Place, Atlantic City.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Who shall hold the title Miss America?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Each station in the Union has sent a representative to
compete for the crown of girlhood beauty.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
But one of the really interesting things, and I actually
learned this in Rebecca Taster's book All the Single Ladies,
is that the sashes, the iconic sashes that the Miss
Americas where we can all picture them.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, I can picture it, were.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Actually based on or modeled on the votes for women
sashes that the suffragests wore.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Isn't that a piece of history? Yeah? That is actually shocking.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Another interesting thing is that at this time women were
barred from wearing revealing swimwear in public or beachware in public.
So the original Atlantic City event actually had to get
a temporary suspension of the span so that they could
do the simsuit competition.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Am I remembering correctly? That they weren't even allowed to
wear bikinis.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
For the swimsuit competition, Like it had to be one
pieces because it had to be like dignified.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
I'm not sure when the pageant allowed it or not,
but they kind of weren't a thing back in the
nineteen twenties when it got started. So like the vintages
make images are all these like very cute one pieces
with low cut legs.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Another interesting thing is that you hear the origins of
Miss America, and you think, like, okay, so, like which
men decided to dream this thing up, like get the
ladies on the.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Boardwalk, put them in some swimsuits, extend the tourist season.
And that was true in the beginning, but it was
act actually a.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Woman, Leonora Slaughter, who becomes pretty famous, who really makes
Miss America into what I think we remember it as.
Like she introduces the talent portion and runs it for
nearly three decades, starting in the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 6 (10:13):
Again the great thing for all fifty two contesting residing
the pageants executive director Leonora Slaughter.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Interesting, this is kind of like the Barbie story, right.
People assume Barbie was a male invention, but it was
a woman who invented it.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yeah, And so what happens is over the years, Miss
America becomes like this pretty major cultural event. At its
height in the nineteen sixties, three and four American households
watched it. In an article that I was doing a
few years ago, I actually interviewed a woman, an author,
alex Kate Schulmann. She's now in her eighties and she
was one of the organizers of that nineteen sixty eight
(10:48):
feminist protest, and she said to me, you know, everybody
tuned into Miss America back then. It was like the Oscars,
and that was just so surprising to me as someone
who hadn't grown up in that era.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I mean, that's not surprising to me.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
I obviously I didn't grow up in the nineteen sixties,
but even when I was growing up in the eighties
and nineties, I remember, you know, there just weren't that
many channels on television, so if there was like a
big event, everybody watched like that was kind of the vibe.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
You know, right right, appointment viewing.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
The other thing is that there's long been this controversy
about what Miss America does with scholarship money and how
much of that money actually goes to contestants. But the
organization itself has long touted itself as more than a
beauty pageant, not just a pageant. You know, they're the
largest provider, they say, of scholarship money to young women,
(11:36):
and the women take part in community service. They try
to at least frame it as more than just a pageant.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Scholarships I received as Miss Minnesota of nineteen fifty six
helped to pay my college expenses. I'm glad I chose
a career that gives me the opportunity to help prepare
these wonderful children for life.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
In the nineties, y.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You know, over the years, Miss America has been the
subject of mockery and school born. It's been opposed by
religious groups and women's rights activists. Love when those two
groups come together. I love it when those two groups
can come together on something. And it's also, I think,
a reminder that we still live in a world today
where women are judged on their bodies. John Oliver actually
had a really funny segment on this a few years ago.
Speaker 7 (12:18):
Last Sunday was they Miss America pageants And through it
all the swimsuits, the dance numbers, the inexplicable ventriloquism, it
was it was very difficult not to think, how the
is this still happening?
Speaker 4 (12:48):
This is this kind of arcane thing. What are the
rules for Miss America? I remember that they're very strict.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, so okay, how do you get to be in
Miss America?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Well, there are a lot of rules, and even today
the rule of state that first you must be a
woman between seventeen and twenty five years of age. You
cannot be married, previously married or divorced. You must not
have any children. You can't have been previously pregnant. You
can't be the adoptive parent of any child.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Okay, wait, I have questions about this.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
How can they verify that you've never been pregnant?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Like people have miscarriages and abortions.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
They're not checking your health records, Like, that's a crazy rule.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Obviously you can't check. I guess they're relying on the
honor system. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of Miss Americas
have had that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
You also can't compete if you've ever been convicted of
a criminal offense.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I feel like that's a little less shocking.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
But all of these things, to see them printed out
on papers produced strange, I can imagine.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Are there any other crazy rules? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So, Actually, the most infamous of these rules was known
as rule number seven. And this rule stated in the
early years, This was until about the nineteen forties that
contestants to Miss America had to be vote.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Of good health and of the white race.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
I'm sorry, what like I just made like a comically
shocked face.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, and it wasn't enough that they just declared they
were a quote of the white race. Contestants actually had
to provide a detailed accounting of their ancestry.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Oh wow, so not a great history. Also not a
great history.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And you know, the overt of the white race rule
was dropped in the nineteen forties, and interestingly, in the
nineteen sixties there was actually a separate Miss Black America
contest that was also held in Atlantic City in direct
protest of the pageant.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Okay, but it would be another decade before a black
contestant would actually walk on the stage.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Until this year.
Speaker 6 (14:44):
The Miss America pageant could have been called Miss White America.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
But by nineteen eighty three, which is Vanessa's year, only
about a dozen black women had ever walked to the
Miss America stage.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So history was really being made.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Not just in her, but in that there were four
After American contestants total, which was the most ever in
a single year.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Okay, so they're making some progress. Sets a scene for me,
it's nineteen eighty three. Is there a lot of big hair?
Are there shoulder pads? What's Vanessa Williams year like?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, a lot of sequins, a lot of shoulder pads,
big hair, And actually we should probably note that while
Miss America had reached its peak in the sixties, this
is when three and four American households were watching. By
the eighties, when Vanessa is there, it's actually really struggling.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's kind of fallen out of step with the culture.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
I mean, you can imagine it's the eighties, like it's
crazy that this thing is still going on.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Oh, that's interesting because I sort of associated with the
eighties because that's when I watched it. But that's interesting
that it wasn't actually such a cultural juggernaut at that point. Yeah,
I know from pageant moms and toddlers and tiaras and
Honey Boobooh that many girl gets started at a very
young age.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Was Vanessa a pageant girl? Oh?
Speaker 3 (15:56):
That's a good question, because you're right, so many of
these pageant peopleeople do this their whole lives. They get
started really young, the parents are really involved. They work
their way up from like locals to state to whatever.
And Vanessa was actually pretty unique in that she wasn't
that except for one thing that is hilarious and would
come up later after she won Her parents when she
(16:17):
was born had put on her birth announcement here she
is Miss America.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Oh my god, that's so cute. Isn't that funny? It's
pretty adorable, And I should.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
At this point I should cite Margot Mifflin, the author
of a really amazing book on Miss America that has
so much of this great history. So we have read
through that and some of these references I am taking
from her.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Okay, so they put this on her birth announcement. But
she's not like a pageant girl. She doesn't compete in
pageants when she's a child. No.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
From everything that I've read, including her memoir, she has
a pretty normal upbringing. She's born in nineteen sixty three
in a pretty small town called Millwood, New York.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
It's a suburb of New York City.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Her parents were music teachers, which is pretty cool and
gives you a sense of, you know, how she became artistic.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
She became a singer.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Ultimately she wanted to be an actress, and they were
really supportive of that. So she sang in her high
school choir and she played the French horn in her band,
which I love so cute, and then she went on
to be a musical theater major at Syracuse University.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
She writes in her memoir, which.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Came out in twenty twelve, she actually co authored it
with her mom, that she, you know, she didn't have
any desire to be a be queen, let alone Miss America,
but she wanted a scholarship. She could use a little
money to help her fund her junior year semester abroad.
I mean, so that's kind of how this whole thing
it started.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I don't know how I know this, but I think
she was scouted, right, she was actually approached to enter.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
You know so many facts about things. Yes, you're right.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So she basically she gets discovered singing in her college.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
She's in the.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Choir or someone sees her, and this person encourages her
to enter what was the Miss Greater Syracuse, which was
like a local competition that feeds into Miss New York,
which then feeds into Miss America. So she does, she
enters it, and she works her way up all in
a matter of a few months, and of course she
starts getting noticed in the press, who begin asking her questions.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Like, now, you're a young black woman, do you think
the country is ready for a black Miss America? Well,
I certainly would be a first, and I wouldn't mind
that I wouldn't mind setting a trend setting making ways.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
It's really a testament to her talent that it happens
so quickly, because there are girls who grow up trying
to do this their whole lives. Right, So she does
get to Miss America. What happens next?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Okay, so it's Miss America at nineteen eighty four, but
it actually happens in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Why from convention Hall?
Speaker 7 (18:39):
And it look like saidy love Miss America that journey.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
And you know, she gets there and it's like she's
a national born star. Hear that she's kind of meant
to be. On stage, she wows the judges. She's gorgeous.
She impresses them with how smart and confident she is.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I think that it isn't important for education to be endowed.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
With a good financial backing.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
She competes in this beautiful but very eighties pale pink
sequin sparkly gown that has this like gauzy bulb that
sort of looks like a like a shower puff like
I don't know to.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This guy, like a.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Way to older lazy puff on her yes, like she
could hardly see over anyway. And her hair is very
eighties tease bangs. She actually writes in her memoir that
she really only needed help from a coach for one
of the questions, and that was why the pageant contestants
had to compete in swimsuits, because you know, maybe she
(19:43):
is the answer.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Now Miss America finalist in swimsuits, New York and Essa Williams.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
She was told to say a fit body reflects a
FIP mind. Very very true, and so this all leads
to her victory. On September seventeenth, nineteen eighty three, she
is crowned Miss America.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And our new Miss America, yes finas away.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Out of.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
What's crazy is that I know it's ridiculous and it's
going to end badly for her, but I still feel
like a swell of pride for her when it makes
that announcement.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
It's like Avlovian on my partner with my brain.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
And that music is so evocative in a way, and
you know, watching the winning moment, she's clearly excited. She's beaming,
she does the walk down the stage doing like the
iconic wave. She's wearing her crown, she looks every bit
the part, and notably, she says this at the first
press conference after her win.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I hope to do the best time I can to
well be to get in America, to have to get
every person in America, no matter what race, the creed, or.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Color they are. So what happens next.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
The coverage of the event is actually pretty interesting. You know,
for years, newspapers and magazines I think had sent multiple
reporters to cover the Miss America pageant, and especially during
like the sixties protest years when there was like big
feminist uprising career, everyone was covering it. There's tons of coverage.
But by this time, as we mentioned, it's kind of
(21:12):
fallen out of favor.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
I wonder, is that because of the kind of women's
lib working girl vibe of the Times.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I mean maybe, I'm not sure the answer, But what
ends up happening is that a lot of outlets as
a result, are really caught off guard in terms of
just how historic this thing is. Oh that's so, you know,
The Washington Post the year prior has decided that like,
nobody cares about Miss America anymore, and so they opted
not to send a recorder. The New York Times doesn't
(21:39):
have anyone there either, and they run a wire story
which oddly doesn't have a photo of Vanessa but only
pictures her runner up.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
That was a weird detail that I didn't understand. It's
very weird.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
And then there's other just funny details that give you
a sense of how people covered these events. There's like
this whole debate about whether or not she cried as
she went on her inaugural walk to get her and
the Chicago Tribune said she didn't cry. The New York
Times so she did cry, and anyway, I forbid, right, God,
I love to police a woman's crying.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
The point is.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
It becomes clear pretty quickly that this is a big deal,
and so the media is playing ketchup.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Okay, so we have this historic victory and reporters are
scrambling to catch up. What is the impact of this?
I imagine this becomes a huge news event.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah it does.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I mean it really does go down as one of
the biggest news events over the year.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
And a lot of that has to do with the
fact that she is the first.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
So some like in her when to Jackie Robinson actually
integrating baseball, Shirley Chisholm, the first black woman elected to Congress,
wais in She says of the victory at the time.
Thank God, I've lived long enough that this nation has
been able to select the beautiful young woman of color
to be Miss America. And Vanessa actually talks about this too.
Here she is in a press junket post victory, being.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Able to say that you are the first and being
in history. It's been making so many people proud of
something that never happened. They never probably they never thought
they would see it in their lifetime, and having it happen.
I think it's a tremendous honor.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah, I mean, you can see why this would feel
really significant, right. I mean, if you're a young black
girl in America, you've never seen yourself represented in this
thing that's held up right as the epitome of what
it means to be beautiful in America.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I think that's to what made it feel so important,
even though by that point, you know, a lot of
people sort of dismissed Miss America.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
The other thing that was happening at the time is
that this is occurring right around the same time that
there's this major backlash to affirmative action happening. So this
is when the Reagan administration was trying to roll back
workforce diversity measures, and like pundits were on the air
talking about her first discrimination.
Speaker 6 (23:55):
We're all aware that recent opinion polls have indicated that
while a large majority of the American public support affirmative action,
over eighty percent are also opposed to reverse discriminations.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
I mean, that is wild, because it feels like we've
just come full circle and everyone's doing that same conversation
is happening again right now.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
It's wild, I know, but so it is coming amid
this political moment too. And you can see this in
what happens in the press coverage after where she's doing
all these interviews and she keeps being asked things along
the lines of, so, are you a token? Was a
subpermative action? Don't you consider yourself too a de facto
spokesman for black America?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Now? I think so, But that's something that I knew
that was going to happen, and I was prepared for it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Her responses are actually so moving and telling because she
really has to emphasize her qualifications. So at a certain
point she says, you know, I was chosen because I
was qualified for the position. Yeah, as if we're talking
about a job position, the fact that I was black
was not a factor. I've always had to try harder
in my life to achieve things, So this is regular.
(25:09):
At another point, she really emphasizes the importance of education
and her character and hard work. You know, she says,
quite bluntly, I'm ambitious, I have a lot of drive,
and I work hard to get somewhere. And the thing
that's nice before this all comes crashing down is that
the Miss America organization actually really backs her up. Like
(25:29):
this guy, Albert Marx, who is the chairman of the
board back then, says repeatedly, I can assure you that this.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Young lady got here on her merits.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I mean I believe that because did Miss America even
care enough about inclusion for it to be from an inaction?
I mean, it doesn't seem like they were very worried about,
you know, being inclusive. I mean it's interesting because when
she says being black isn't a factor, it is a
factor she had to work harder, exactly. You know, it's
kind of an interesting dichotomy. So what's it actually like
(26:02):
for her to be Miss America? Being the first black
Miss America must have been a really interesting experience.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty crazy.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
You know, Miss America's traditionally get to do things like
ride on floats at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I'm going to be singing New York, New York on
the big Apple float.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Then, like they meet important people and they sort of
act as ambassadors to their communities.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
But hers was really on a different level.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
She sits next to President Reagan at the White House
at this state dinner for West Germany.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I don't think it's a coincidence, for one thing, that
you had a call of congratulations from President Reagan.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
He's never called a winning Miss America before that.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I'm aware of that year, there's a Martin Luther King
Junior Birthday rally in Atlanta, and she stands there and
attends alongside Coretta Scott King and the first black astronaut.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
So you know, she's standing with heroic figures.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
It's interesting because she's taken something that's, you know, genuinely
pretty silly and she's imbued it with a kind of significance, right, Yeah,
and it's serious to something interesting about that. Yeah, It's
like this thing can be silly but also meaningful, And
she really proves.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
That, yeah, and I think that aside from that, I mean,
she just had a huge number of fans. Like, at
one point in one of the articles about it, a
reporter notes that people approached her with a frenzy once
reserved for Mick Jagger and just departed with ecstatic smiles
associated with religious experience.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
So people really love her.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
I mean, that makes sense. She really was so stunning.
When you see the pictures and the videos of the time,
you can see why she has sort of this charisma
that really draws people to her.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
And yet at the same time, though it's not all celebration, like,
there are real racist undertones to a lot of what
happens in the aftermath.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
What does that look like? Is the backlash immediate.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Some of it is more overt than other parts of it,
but it does begin pretty immediately. The very night that
she's crowned, one of the other attendees of the pageant,
who is a former Miss America, makes some crack to
someone that she's with about how she must be quote
heading back to Harlem. Then later in the week, Johnny
Carson on his late night show makes this joke of
(28:05):
putting joke in quotations because it's not funny, but he says,
did you hear we have a black Miss America? I
bet you didn't know that mister T was one of
the judges. I mean, that joke is just dumb, racist
and dumb. And it's interesting too because she says at
this time that she hadn't really experienced bald faced bigotry
at this point, and so her parents say something to
(28:27):
the effect of like, look, you are a public figure
now and we can't shelter you anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
And it gets really nasty.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
There are racist, threatening letters sent to her parents' house,
just awful, awful things written and said. She has to
have extra security wherever she goes. Armed guards are posted
outside her hotel room. She talks at one point about
how they were actual sharpshooters placed on the tops of
buildings when she had her first parade in the South.
(28:55):
Just wild, wild, like this is the eighties and there
are sharpshooters to protect this Miss Amarica.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I imagine there were so many death threats.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Really, I'm sure we don't even know the half of it,
but I think it was just awful. There's even another
detail that she said, where you know, usually when you
have Miss America going to some town or for a parade,
they ride in a convertible like that's a thing. But
she could not ride in a convertible because she was
too exposed.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
God, that's really sad, Like it just really makes me
sad for her that she had to have all these
security measures that weren't required for other people.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Well, and her family too, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
So her mother, Helen Williams, co authored Vanessa's memoir with her,
and she writes in that book that we had no
idea that her Miss America rain would quickly become a
reign of.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Terror for us. That's how she describes it, a reign
of terror.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And it's interesting too because you know, at the time,
you're assuming that a lot of this is coming from
white folks, but she was also being criticized by black
people as well, who I think dismissed the notion that
her crowning was a racial breakthrough. You know, she was
pretty light skinned, she had these beautiful green eyes. It
was later revealed that her longtime boyfriend was white, and
(30:03):
so she received these really vicious letters that called her
a race trader as well.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Yeah, because it's sort of this idea that you are
embraced by your community in one way, but also rejected
in another, like you exactly never quite good enough for
any of the people who feel invested in your win.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yeah, And Vanessa talked about this a bit in an
interview she did in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
I mean I had racial problems when I first won.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
I got death threats from the Klan because I was black.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I got people from.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I had black people in America
said she doesn't look black enough.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
It kind of reminds me of Robin Gibbons, right, who
is kind of not celebrated as being black enough. And
that must also be really complicated history for Vanessa to
have to navigate.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
But this is happening over the course of the year, right.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
She almost completes the full term as Miss America.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Yes, it's been many months now, and it's interesting to
hear her in later years talk about this time, because
you know, she sounds a bit torn, like on the
one hand, she's what twenty twenty one years old, She's
getting to travel the country, like, she's meeting all these
incredible people. It's an entree in a lot of ways
to what she really wants, which is to be in
the entertainment business. But at the same time there's this
(31:17):
racism and everywhere she goes people are asking her about
like the political issues or the racial politics of the day.
And actually, in fairness to her, at what point she
answers that question by saying, Hey, I'm only twenty years old,
Like what qualifies me to answer that?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Which fairly? That is, yeah, very fair?
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Like why is she suddenly being thrust into this position
as like a leader on you know, racial politics.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
That's really a strange position for her to have been
forced into.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
And I think that's one of the things about being
a first of anything too. It's like you are expected
to answer for the whole group, and then if something
bad happens, you are again expected to answer for the
whole group.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
Okay, so we do know that eventually something bad does
happen and she gets be thrown what happened?
Speaker 3 (32:05):
So what happens is nine weeks from the end of
her rant, so she's really very close to this year
post being over. She learns that nude photos that she
had taken when she was nineteen years old were going
to appear in Penthouse and the Kicker, the nude photos
were with another.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Woman, and she hadn't consented to these photos being released
in any way. Right, No, the.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Photographer sold these images to the magazine without her permission
or her knowledge, and so the way she finds out
about them is actually during an interview with a reporter.
This is happening on the phone, and the reporter kind
of drops it in at the very end of the interview,
essentially saying, you know, by the way, a source mentioned
that there would be these nude photos of you appearing
(32:51):
in penthouse, Like, can you confirm that this is true?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Oh my god. She must have been so blindsided. She
had no idea what was coming.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
No no idea, and obviously she's extremely rattled when the
reporter asks for this, so she denies it and quickly
hangs up. But she also knows that these photos are
out there, and so before she can even figure out
what to do, Miss America gets wind of the photos,
They see them, and they give her a public ultimatum.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
Miss America, Vanessa Williams took off her clothes and now
she's being asked to give up her crown within seventy
two hours.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
That's Tom Broker, right, I would recognize his voice anywhere,
and he really delivers that line. So she's given seventy
two hours to decide what to do, yes.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
And she spends that time hold up in her childhood home.
She's with her parents, she's told them. At this point,
her lawyer is there, her publicist is there, and they're
essentially debating what she should.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Do and what does she decide to do?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Well, Susie, I'm going to tell you all about that,
as well as Vanessa's remarkable comeback in part two. Before
we go, I wanted to give a quick shout out
to two authors whose books were instrumental.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
In our research of this episode.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
The first is Margot Mifflin, whose book is Looking for
Miss America, a Pageant's one hundred year quest to define womanhood.
And the second is Amy Argittsinger, whose book is There
She Was, The Secret History of Miss America. They're both
fascinating reads and you can find links to them in
our show notes.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking
about and want us to explore in a future episode.
Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find
us on Instagram at in Retropod.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
If you love this podcast, please rate and review us
on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you
hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,
which we may or may not delete.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett
and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books
Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media.
Anson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our engineer
and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon Atia
is our researcher and associate producer.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Our executive producer from the Media is Cindy Levy. Our
executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stem and Katrina Norbel.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda
Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
We are your hosts Susie Bannacarum and Jessica Bennett.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
We are also executive producers.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
For even more, check out in retropod dot com.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
See you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.