April 17, 2024 • 37 mins
Minnie questions Lucy Boynton, star of Bohemian Rhapsody, The Ipcress File, the Greatest Hits, and more. Lucy shares how playing the young Beatrix Potter made her into the antithesis of her sister, why she embraces the unknown, and then Minnie and Lucy share funny entries in their childhood journals.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Well, I'm so glad that you were here doing this.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Too much for having you.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
How come my little cultural pot one little cultural anthology,
which is how I lovetily like to think about it.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved Preust's questionnaire. It
was originally in nineteenth century parlor game where players would
ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the
other player's true nature. In asking different people the same
set of questions, you can make observations about which truths
appear to be universal. And it made me wonder, what
(00:41):
if these questions were just the jumping off point, what
greater depths would be revealed if I asked these questions
as conversation starters. So I adapted Prus's questionnaire and I
wrote my own seven questions that I personally think are
pertinent to a person's story.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
They are when and where were you happiest? What is
the quality you likely about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Love for you?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life? That's grown out of a personal disaster, and
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
(01:25):
to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
or created the most fertile ground to connect.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
My guest today on Mini Questions is the actor and
all round excellent person Lucy Boynton. I first met Lucy
when we were shooting the film Chevalier in Prague. Over
the course of promoting a film, you get to spend
time with the people in it, and Lucy is just
one of the most interesting and thoughtful.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Women I've met in a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
She considers things. I'm really inspired by how she doesn't
just quickly answer a question when it's posed to fill
the space to hold the floor, but rather takes her
time responding and then revels in the answer. She attributes
this to having grown up in a household of journalists
where the question was the thing. Actors are funny people,
I mean funny peculiar by that we appear extrovert, when
(02:26):
there is actually a whole other, inward facing person interrogating
things and wondering if any of it is fit for
public consumption. Lucy gracefully inhabits both these aspects, and I
always look forward to seeing her and to watching what
films she chooses to make. I'm particularly looking forward to
seeing The Greatest Hits, her newest movie out now on Hulu.
(02:49):
Where and when were you happiest?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I found it so hard to answer, because I think
my answer to that would change so much all the
time based on what I currently want and like what
I'm currently seeking. But I think the one that really
springs to mind is I had a five day period
in twenty twenty one where I had just finished filming
(03:14):
The Hipgris File and I was about to go onto
this mini series when I had five days of quarantine
way back when we had to do that, and I
was so content. I just finished a job that was
one of the best times of my life personal experience
wise and work wise. I was about to go onto
something I loved so much, and that in terms of
(03:36):
work that's been kind of the dream forever, feeling safe
in it and feeling inspired by it. And energized by it,
and it had just been so rewarding working with such
brilliant people as well that I'm still so close with,
So it was really personally impactful as well. It was
a period of time where I just felt contentment.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I heard Julia Roberts interviewed once and she said, for her,
the best time was the time between when one job
ended but you knew another one was beginning. And I
think it's so many actors have this feeling of we
never know where the next job is coming from. I mean,
if you're one of most actors, so that feeling of
(04:16):
safety bookended by work. Do you think that safety for
you is part of contentment, that the incredible instability of
being an actor and not knowing, well, perhaps I will
be able to pay my mortgage or can I look
a year down the line, and is it okay if
I go on holiday? Is it okay if I make
plans for my future financially because I have no idea
(04:37):
if I'm going to be able to underwrite that with work? Exactly,
the safety factor into happiness for.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You totally, because it also gives you a momentary sense
of structure of your life, kind of like what you're saying,
but it allows me to understand where I'll be and when,
so then I can start to shape my life. So
in that pocket of time, I felt that satisfied feeling
of being exhausted by something that you loved, something is
on the horizon. But now I'm dipping back into my
(05:04):
life life and I'm present with my friends and family again,
and I know where I'll be for the next chunk
of time, so I can also start to shape my
personal life in a way that when you don't know
when you're working next, you can't.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Except So what do you think the attraction of this itinerancy?
Because it is in this life that we live, because
it's certainly nothing that anyone It's so funny. Everyone always
talked about the unemployment as an actor, but no one
ever went you better get ready to live out of
a suitcase for the rest of your life and miss weddings,
miss funerals, miss christenings, miss birthdays, miss big family events.
(05:40):
Why is it so compelling?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I think there is just something appealing about I don't
know where I'll be this time, next month, or next year,
and I feed off of that, and I think there's
a certain element whether it's kind of partially self destructive
or just the thrill of the unknown that your life
hasn't fallen into a pattern, and because I personally wouldn't
be able to enjoy that thing is. I don't know
(06:04):
how people do it with families. I don't know how
you manage it once you have kids, because you know,
I've done this since I was twelve, and I've always
been really free, like I can drop everything and go
somewhere next week and just hop on a plane wherever
I need to be. I can be. That has increasingly,
like as I get older, I find it harder to
realize how sometimes I can be the friend who can't
(06:25):
really depend on. You know, I'm less dependable in my
personal life because of all of this, and I'm struggling
with that more and more as I get older.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's such a good point that I have felt like
such a bad friend, even though I know my love
remains constant always for my friends totally.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
But you kind of let yourself off the hook a
little bit because it's always been this way, because it's
always been this kind of you know, out of the blue,
I'll be the other side of the world, and I
forgot to mention that.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
It's a weird life. I don't have an enormous amount
of friends, I think as a result of it. I mean,
I have very few, but very very good friends, because
you say exactly, you don't have the time to maintain
the peripheral nice friendships that are lovely people to have
over for dinner once every few months. But I don't
have anyone like that because if I'm home, there are
like four people that I've got to say, because I
(07:11):
don't know when I'm going to be gone. Okay, so
what question would you most like answered?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I don't know. I've been racking my reins about this
and I have no answer.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I reject your question past.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I'm someone who feels quite content with the unknown. I
don't want to know about ma afterlife. I don't want
to know.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That's good though, that's very No one has ever said
that I am extremely content with the unknown that's really present.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It excites me more because it means that there's no
definitive answer. It means it's just so much more space
for your own interpretation or to just sit in it
as is and makes you much more present. And I
don't know, Yeah, not trying to control things with answers.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So hold on. So you come from a family who,
quite literally because they're journalists, are expected to have answers
in a way about cultural relevance, about politics, the facts
of science. So it feels like it was quite an
answer based sort of environment. So how do you fit
into that?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I think it's the inverse, it's question based environment. So
they source the answers from the experts, from the people
who do know, and their job is to facilitate and
ask the right questions to invite that conversation. And so
maybe that's why then, because yeah, sitting around that table,
it's always been the most intellectually simulating debates, but without
(08:43):
any kind of definitive answer. It's always an awareness of
unless you're stating statistics, your stating interpretation.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, it's interesting because this all dovetails into the comfort
level with untelledness. And I don't mean that in a
way that it is applied to women and mental health.
I mean in terms of of again the itinerancy of
being an actor, the idea of being so present, or
(09:12):
being more interested in the present than in the unknown,
or sitting worrying about gosh, I wonder what the answer
that is, rather than what is it relkas Head, keep
asking the questions until you live the answers, so you
live the answer in a present moment rather than sort
of seeking it as this thing that's always just up ahead.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, And I think that keeps you open to the
idea that there's no definitive answer, that it's just like
a collection of information, and you kind of quilt that
together and you're okay with that fas to form. Yeah, yes,
because it frees me. I think I'm not trying to
get to an end result. I think I would just
kind of reject that.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I say that to myself. I wrote a book with
that as the central thesis, clearly because it is something
I long to be able to really fundamentally. No, there
is no there there. It is here and only here,
and that's completely fine. That's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think, isn't that the most freeing thing there? Because
it's like this idea that I don't know, when you
just sit in the idea that everything is made up
and it's all just happening now and.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
It is all fiction. I agree, it is all and
it's a fiction that.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Is like, yeah, giant playground, and so it just immediately
becomes I mean fascical.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Look, I think you've got a right like you know,
the Dow of Boynton Babes.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
The World by Lucy Winton.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Yeah, what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
For you?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
All my female friendships and predominantly only when I was
thinking about this question that I actually take time to
really like analyze the relationships in my life. And I
think we talk about romantic relationships so much more and
romanticize them, whereas like female friendships and best friendships, we
just don't. And my friend Ellen and I we're best
friend since we were eleven. It's been so unconditional, it's
(11:18):
been so dependable, and we've just given each other so
much grace to really grow and change as people, and
in so many ways we're really different, and yet relentlessly
we're still there for each other. And it's just it's
kind of remarkable.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
What you just described is probably the ideal of what
a relationship would be with a romantic partner, maybe just
as women. That's how the trajectory has always been. That's
what you're aiming for. I love that your definition of
is the female friendship. You have the blueprint for that
in your life and that one doesn't really need much
outside of that. I don't think I'm very interested in
(11:58):
why we're pushed on romantic relationships so much more than
we are on the fundament of friendship with whomever. That is,
whoever our best friends are, our best relationships are.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I feel like that's all just so like entrenched in
traditional and misogyny and women having to marry men in
order to have a bank account, yeah, and be able
to do anything exact. Now that that landscape is changing
so much, I think the rhetoric is changing, and I
think you're seeing it in a wave of women having
much higher standards and saying kind of I'm actually not
(12:33):
going to settle for this what previously you kind of
had to. And I think part of that is like
more fulfillment in your life in general, but also realizing, yeah,
and these friendships you get.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
All of that, I mean, one hundred percent, and if you.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Nurture that, it is such a strong foundation for your life.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So interesting, You're right, like, I don't even think about
the systemic programming that I have, what I realize, even
though I have always longed just to do what I
do for a living and acting has been this great passion, always, always,
always this idea that I had to find that person
to love and to love me, and that superseded everything,
(13:11):
and that was always the quest, and that not happening
until my late forties. I've realized I thought of that
as a failure and it's such utter bollocks.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Because it's this constant message that you're not enough on
your own, and that women aren't enough on their own,
certainty validated by the presence of a male partner. Yeah,
and then you're successful, Yeah, even if you've had the
job all along. Then you're stamped with okay, decent person exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And the idea of belonging, like my boyfriend doesn't want
to get married, my parents weren't married. Now I'm like,
where does this come from?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
This?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And it's an idea about belonging, of someone choosing me,
because I think I was programmed to believe someone has
to choose me, and when you look at what we
do for a living, fundamentally that's also what it is.
You have to get chosen over all the other people.
But it really just comes back to lack of self worth.
For me.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I've done so much analysis of like why do women
feel this way about it because of who my sister is.
When I was sixteen, she handed me the book Kunt
and told me that the patriarchy is taking advantage of me,
and the tampon industry are taking advantage of me. Read up.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Your sister should be talking in schools.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
She should be. She runs a monthly event, Sex Talks,
and it's everyone leaving feeling empowered.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
And sounds like she was ahead of the curve because
that word like empowerment, which is what women, particularly young women,
I think, are getting to feel now for the first time,
and it be acknowledged by outside forces. I'm much older
than you, but I remember when my aunt and my
mother were protesting at Greenham Common about the nuclear bombs
(14:48):
that we were going to be housing, and I remember
how they were just presented on the news as these
dirty hippie women who were not tethered to families or people.
They were so othered because they stepped out of exactly
what you said, this heteronormative idea of what a woman
is supposed to be, and all that stuff goes in
(15:09):
and we are now I'm picking that. I watched my
nieces and my friend's children and like you know, speaking
to young women like you, it's so great to know
that it's just not acceptable anymore, that you don't accept it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Still, it is happening so slowly, and you're grateful that
it's happening across the board, but you realize how much
of everything is entrenched in that. And still the media
I think plays such a huge role in keeping us
static in that in the differences of the way men
and women are portrayed.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
What do you think do you think that we should
be going on marches against the patriot I'm trying to
think of, like.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
What, I don't know, because it's so entrenched in our fabric.
It's built by them for them. Supposedly, the answer is
to pick a lane, so you can't disassemble the thing
in its entirety all at once. So choose something that
you're very passionate about changing and then start shipping away
at it from there, so then everyone does that. I
(16:05):
think that's a brilliant whole thing starts to crumble, and
I do think that is the dissemination of information. That
is about speaking with each other and going, oh my goodness,
this is you feel this too, and this has been
your experience too.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So someone like looking at you and they would see
a picture of you looking beautiful in a magazine and
then there would maybe have the opportunity to listen to you,
for example here or somewhere else and correlate. Ah, a beautiful,
successful woman can also be interrogating ideas that need to
disassemble shit that we've all just been accepting. And perhaps
(16:41):
it's a very big ship and it is taking a
really long fucking time to turn it around. I do
think it's happening, but I agree with you the slowness
of it is glacial and it's fucking annoying. I really
like that. I like that about picking a lane, shipping
away in that way.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And I do think we're lucky because we do have
the opportunity in this job to you know, even like
with Chevalier this film, where you get to hold a
mirror up to people that is kind of trojan horsing
your message. You're getting to offer really tangible experience of
empathy that is otherwise a more analytical process of someone
(17:20):
having to read about a thing and then imagine, whereas
with film and the entertainment industry, I think you are
just offered it. There's very much more kind of visceral
experience of that, and.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's immersive too. It's a very elegant way of giving
meaning to what we do beyond the sort of raw
going to the movies. Having an experience, particularly with stories
like Chevalier, you can introduce an essentially a raised story
and it be beautiful and entertaining and devastating and raw.
So that's very interesting. You see what person, place, or
(17:56):
experience most altered your life.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
This is going to be such an obvious answer, but
it's starting this job when I was twelve. Well, my
first job was playing the young bittrick s Potter and
Miss Potter so cute, and I think I didn't realize
how much this job has impacted my formation of self
until I started doing therapy and in our first session,
(18:23):
I was going through the trajectory of my life so
that she kind of understand who I was, and then
part of it was you know, and then I started
acting at like eleven twelve, and she's like, oh, okay,
that's going to be a big one. I was like, no, no, no, Honestly,
I have such a healthy relationship with it, like you know,
another actors present in the families you know, expectations, not
controlling parents by any means really supportive, solid foundation or
(18:46):
good or good. And then we started to unpick it,
and it's like, oh no, this is the source of
so much shit to be untangled.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
So what pit one thing just because I'm fascinated because
you're so little and such a formative moment, Yeah, what
is one pathway that that led you down that you've
had to unpick?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I mean the main two is obedience and then trusting
my own feelings. So I find that my relationship with
obedience was the main thing that came out of these
therapy sessions that I was really stunned by and disappointed with,
because I think in most workforces in industries, obedience is rewarded,
and especially obedience without question is rewarded. But in our industry,
(19:30):
I think there are really tangible ways that's rewarded. And
from the bare minimum, the way that you're hitting your mark,
you turn up with all your lines.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Learned, someone else always has the last word, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And obedience becomes really tangible and constantly reinforcement, especially as
a child, and I think as a young girl to
have obedience as a kind of a goal every day
in a very tangible way, and your work environment is
really odd.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And my sister has always challenged every source of authority
around her. She just kind of arrived that way, and
I became the antithesis of that, and I hate it.
I don't challenge authority enough and have to make such
a concerted effort to do that as I get older.
And it's not even like seeking validation or praise. It's
(20:14):
just seeking confirmation that you've done the thing or exceeded it.
And that's it. It's not that I need the praise,
it's that the box has been checked. And I've always
looked outside of myself for that confirmation rather than do
I feel like I've done it? Or am I aware
that I've done enough?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
God, that's so interesting, Lucie.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So that was the one thing and then the other. Yeah,
I was trusting my own feelings because this job is
really odd, and that as much as your brain knows
or you can analytically know that this is a separate
person to yourself, a separate experience to yourself, your body
still experiences the chemical reactions to whatever you're telling it
you're going through. So from that age, I haven't solely
(21:00):
been me, and so I find it hard to tap
into my gut instinct and to know my own feelings
and thoughts through and through I really challenged them. I
don't completely trust them because I'm constantly changing them. I'm
constantly leaning into someone very different from myself.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Do you find that, because in a way, the more
one is not oneself, it actually throws into relief who
you are. The more you feel not yourself, you get
to actually then connect with Oh goodness, that is actually
very other than who I am.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yes and no, Yes, when I'm playing someone really far
from myself. But in recent years, I've played more characters
who were more similar to parts of me, or parts
of me that I wanted to exercise more and lean into.
And so then when they start to bleed into one another, yeah,
I do find it hard to find myself and I
(21:57):
do feel like I have I'm not kind of floating
between personalities. I do have a strong sense of self.
I just find that hard to trust sometimes.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
And it's so interesting, And when you're talking about obedience,
it's so funny how it's like there's a whole universe
of expansion going on behind the incredibly structured notion of
like obedience and ticking the boxes and playing by the
rules so that you have an exterior that is cool.
And then I love I love talking to you because
(22:29):
it is like there's this whole universe of freedom going
on behind it, which is fantastic, because I got to
tell you, without one you sound patronizing. As you get older,
that universe of expansion just becomes more and more and
more who you are and what you live.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, I'm already feeling that more since the age of
twenty seven onwards. I've felt that more than ever, that
I'm turning away from things that don't feed me anymore
and that I was locked into focusing on even though
it didn't help help me. And also just yeah, that
freedom of just like everything is made up, and so
I think part of that because you can slot into
(23:06):
so many different identities with this work, the idea of
the ultimate self isn't so precious. I'm not as protective
of it. It's much more of a fluid thing. So
that's a good thing and then also a harder thing
because you can tap into any feeling, any point of
view and all of that.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, No, it really does. I think what's really great
is that it doesn't sound like you punish yourself for
the person that you were, but rather they're sort of
continuing to fold into the person that you're becoming, which
maybe is a really healthy way. You know, we take
all of our imperfection with us in our little backpack
(23:44):
as we move along without being angry about it, which
I think is what keeps us stuck as people.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, and I think I used to do that a
lot when I was younger, like stepping out of the
way that I wanted to be was unacceptable and kind
of punishable, whereas now it's just kind of like everyone's
winging it.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And do you think that you more trust your own
feelings or is that something that you continue to kind
of have to work on, or do you feel that
you do it more naturally now?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
I think I'm less analytical of it of just like
observe the feelings and let it pass, and then what
resonates and what is true will keep coming back and
you'll circle round to it again. And also just yeah,
there's a kind of detachment from permanence. So it's like
my mum has always said it to us, and I
always repeat it to my sister and my friends. Of
like all of your feelings are valid. Just listen to that,
(24:33):
and it doesn't mean that it has to stick, but
just like observe it and then let it pass. So
I think I'm learning to like justify myself less by
kind of clinging to those feelings and just living it
all flow. There's this book The Island by Aldus Huxley,
and in it there's this paragraphs that just says, go lightly,
and it just talks about like it's dark because you're
(24:55):
trying too hard. Go lightly lightly, And it's just the
most beautiful of just like we're so trying to clutch
to these things that we think are true and real
in us, and actually there's so much that we said
for just letting it go and just being and observing
and then letting it pass.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I love that, Gosh, particularly with the more challenging things
in life, to go lightly when you feel like you're
being pulled into the abyss of whether it's grief or
sadness or depression or whatever. To be able to remember
that in those moments is so wonderful because it's simple
and it's direct, and it's actually prescriptive, which is great.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I know, it's kind of cliche, but it is, it
is how it shall be exactly. I've got the full thing.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Oh my god, it'd be so lovely. Read it.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yes, lightly, child, lightly, learn to do everything lightly. Yes,
feel lightly, even though you're feeling deeply, Just lightly let
things happen and lightly cope with them. I was so
preposterously serious in those days. Such a humorous, little prig.
Lightly lightly is the best advice ever given me when
(26:04):
it comes to dying. Even nothing ponderous or potentious or emphatic,
no rhetoric or tremulose, no self conscious persona putting on
its celebrated imitation of Christ or little Nell, and of course,
no theology, no metaphysics, just the fact of dying and
the fact of the clear light. So throw away your
baggage and go forward. Here A quick sounds all about you,
(26:27):
sucking at your feet, trying to suck you down into
fear and self pity and despair. That's why you must
walk so lightly, lightly, my darling, on tiptoes, and no luggage,
not even a spongebag, completely unencumbered.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Oh lows, No, I'm crying.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Isn't it beautiful?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The fact of the clear light?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, that book is full of that kind of sentiment
of it's definitely a little dated in areas, but it's
full of understanding small self in the big, big landscape.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Exactly. Gosh, I don't have anything to add to that
is so beautifully said and so beautifully put in your life.
(27:23):
Can you tell me something that has grown out of
a personal disaster?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
The ability to self soothe and the understanding that the
most impactful strength is self sourced. So when I've been
going through a really difficult time and I'm still in
the thick of it and still drowning in the feelings
(27:49):
and going through it and realizing that I'm coping and
that I'm getting through something that I didn't think I
had the kind of ability to the equipment too that
I thought would be that would wash me away and hasn't.
I'm still here and I'm just coping.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So would you say that's like there are moments where
you get to be the observer around turmoil and can
see that you're sitting there shuddering and sad or whatever
the moment is, but you can see I am actually
still here and I am coping with it, and that's
the thing that will carry you on.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, And that I'm stronger than I thought I was. Yeah,
that you're more unshakable than you think you are and
not that and that doesn't mean any lack of a
kind of emotional response or impact. It hasn't you, but
it just means you'll go out the other side. There's
this Emmy lou Harris song Boulded of Birmingham that she
wrote when Grandpasons died, and in it one of the
most devastating lyrics is well you really got me this
(28:48):
time And the hardest part is knowing I'll survive, And
that I think resonates so much of just like regardless
of the intensity or severity the loss, the grief, you
come out the other side and you look back. And
I think that's why it's also important to always keep
a diary, because then I look back on these moments
where I was just like drowning in it, and here
I am a year later or whatever or however long after,
(29:11):
and having grown from it.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Would that be your how too? In terms of a
practical application, that keeping a diary, that journaling, that being
able to physicalize the emotions that you're going through and
then being able to revisit it and see that you've
evolved or that you moved on from it. Is that
a practical application, do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah? And I think just in terms of also having
to verbalize, having to articulate exactly how you feel. And
there are times when I'm writing and it's like I'm
just not getting it, I'm not conveying it. So I
keep writing and it's such a cathartic purging of your feelings,
so that then I'm aware don't take as much of
it to someone else, and it stays kind of ugly
(29:53):
in its honesty, and so it can be much more cleansing.
And then you look back on it and it's just
this constant reminder of everything returns to the middle. It
goes really high, and it goes really low, and it
always comes back to the middle. Everything passes, and so
it is kind of moving to look back on that
and realize you're own strength, or realize, like, my god,
what a huge reaction. I'm fine, it was fine, And
(30:16):
I was young. I know.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's so funny. We've been moving around since COVID, into
so different countries, different houses, and I found a box
of diaries and one of the entries from when I
was ten and it was so funny. It literally went,
this is my last entry because I am going to die.
(30:40):
I have so many of them, I mean so dramatic,
and I.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Have so many like that around ten years old, and
it's like my sister is annoying me so much, she
is going to cause me a half stack. I'm going
to die. Here's my will. I need everything to my sister.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Sisters. What would be your last meal?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Pancakes?
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Now hold please? Do you mean the thick American pancakes
that we did not grow up eating? Or do you
mean the thin pancakes that we would have on shrive Tuesday?
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Exactly, absolutely, the thin, thin pancakes from shrive Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
That's a great exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Americans grapes with lemon jam, A huge stack of them.
I used to just put them away on my mom.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's so funny. My mother used to stand at the
stove and she would be there for forty five.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Minutes after the other, after the other, after It's.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Also about the heat of the pan, you know, once
it's got to the optimum.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Because she would always pancakes for the doll ones. They
would always be and once it's got to that brilliant temperature. Also,
I would be able to defend in a court of
law that lemon and sugar is the greatest of all
the saturations and toppings.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
It beats, it.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Beats everything there with you.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And people have tried to took me into natlla and banana.
I've actually even tried to took me into jam. I
cannot ever leave lemon and sugar.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Jam with a little bit of lemon, I do recommend
a sin sin.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
That may because you have to have that sharp sour.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yes, yes, that's why. That's why the lemon and sugar.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Just oh my god, it's so it's so true. I
do remember being in a really fancy restaurant with my
dad when I was probably about nine, so inappropriately in
this very fancy restaurant and they were making crepe suzette
at the table. So they were making these pancakes and
they light the pan on fire, and the guy he'd
done this huge performance, and I remember we put the
(32:50):
pancake on my plate with a flourish and I remember
standing up and going, it is just a pancake. And
my dad was just horrified and he was like, shut up,
it's crepes, is it? And I was like no, it
is a pancake, like mummakes fraud. It I was calling fraud.
It was like everyone was agreeing that this was something
(33:12):
that clearly was not.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
But that's the kid that I wanted to be. That's
the kid with the lack of obedience that challenges the
status quo.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh my god, Lucy, it's so interesting because like.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I was that child.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I'm so jealous.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
But you know what.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Happens to that person is you get beaten by that,
You get absolutely rounded on for being that. It's so
interesting that there is clearly a punishment, and I think
it is particularly for young women. Absolutely if you are
left having to unpick the not speaking out, and if
you speak out, believe me, you will get savaged. But
(33:49):
there's no easy way out of it.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And I wonder if at least it has to be
getting better. So more and more women doing that is
more and more examples to young girls who then become that.
And so I keep using her as a reference because
I look up to her so much. But my sister
has faced that and now it doesn't seem to shake
her because she's been able to look to those women
(34:13):
and see that and be like I want to be
the loud voice rather than the quiet acceptance.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Well, maybe there's the middle path as well, that the
loud voice also eventually doesn't become the loud voice exactly,
it becomes the voice. It becomes the voice of reason.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But also the loud voice has been the voice of reason.
It's just been such an unreasonable environment. That's exactly is
protest to state the most obvious.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That feels like it goes into exactly what you were saying.
You choose the path that you can actually affect change on,
and perhaps that is speaking to the young actors that
you then work with. That's when you work with a
twelve year old actress, it's a very different conversation than
someone was perhaps having with you. I've found that on sets,
like my area of expertise is that I am now
(34:56):
a fifty three year old version of maybe the twenty
three year old woman that I'm also working with. So
there's so much exchange. There is so much that can
be offered between the two of us, which then forges
a pat and also the young men who are then
observing and listening to those conversations or that we're having
conversations with. That is how you fashion a different narrative
is by having that narrative totally.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
And I think you can see the progress and that
happening of it being less a priority to be a
quote unquote team player in our industry where I'm very
aware that I've come into the industry or at least
become an adult at a time when enough women have
been saying that, don't prioritize being liked. Because see, even
when you're a team player, I don't know, it's just
having to learn to be comfortable with people being uncomfortable
(35:42):
by you just stand up for yourself and it's worth it,
and it's so uncomfortable at the time, and you feel
like such a problem.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I've noticed. It's the way that one delivers. Yes is
what you do. And I hate that the idea that
a woman has to sort of speak more quietly or
she's called shrill. But it's not that. It's sort of
about being a human and going no, no, no, I
connect with what I'm saying, and I can have the
patience to say what I need to say in a
way that it is more likely to be heard.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, because you don't have to rise to the way
that it's been brought to you. Yeah, you can be
there in issue too.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Respect Oh Lucy, it's just been the most wonderful conversation.
It's so brilliant talking to you. You're such a fantastic person,
you really are. I'm so glad that you're out there working.
You're such a great actor and you're such an excellent person.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Thank you so much for having me, and also thank
you so much for doing this podcast, and thank you
for all the times you have been the loudest voice
and honestly, profusely, profusely grateful for you.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Thank you, Darling.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
One Fantastic Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me
Mini Driver, Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with
production support from Jennifer Bassett, Zoey Denkler and Ali Perry.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
The theme music is also by Me and additional music
by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Special thanks to Jim Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella,
Anick Oppenheim, A, Nick Muller and Annette Wolfe, A wkpr,
Will Pearson, Nicki Etoor, Morgan Lavoy and Mangesh had Tickadore
Well, I'm so glad that you were here doing this.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Too much for having you.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
How come my little cultural pot one little cultural anthology,
which is how I lovetily like to think about it.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved Preust's questionnaire. It
was originally in nineteenth century parlor game where players would
ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the
other player's true nature. In asking different people the same
set of questions, you can make observations about which truths
appear to be universal. And it made me wonder, what
(00:41):
if these questions were just the jumping off point, what
greater depths would be revealed if I asked these questions
as conversation starters. So I adapted Prus's questionnaire and I
wrote my own seven questions that I personally think are
pertinent to a person's story.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
They are when and where were you happiest? What is
the quality you likely about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Love for you?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
your last meal? And can you tell me something in
your life? That's grown out of a personal disaster, and
I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
(01:25):
to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
or created the most fertile ground to connect.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
My guest today on Mini Questions is the actor and
all round excellent person Lucy Boynton. I first met Lucy
when we were shooting the film Chevalier in Prague. Over
the course of promoting a film, you get to spend
time with the people in it, and Lucy is just
one of the most interesting and thoughtful.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Women I've met in a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
She considers things. I'm really inspired by how she doesn't
just quickly answer a question when it's posed to fill
the space to hold the floor, but rather takes her
time responding and then revels in the answer. She attributes
this to having grown up in a household of journalists
where the question was the thing. Actors are funny people,
I mean funny peculiar by that we appear extrovert, when
(02:26):
there is actually a whole other, inward facing person interrogating
things and wondering if any of it is fit for
public consumption. Lucy gracefully inhabits both these aspects, and I
always look forward to seeing her and to watching what
films she chooses to make. I'm particularly looking forward to
seeing The Greatest Hits, her newest movie out now on Hulu.
(02:49):
Where and when were you happiest?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I found it so hard to answer, because I think
my answer to that would change so much all the
time based on what I currently want and like what
I'm currently seeking. But I think the one that really
springs to mind is I had a five day period
in twenty twenty one where I had just finished filming
(03:14):
The Hipgris File and I was about to go onto
this mini series when I had five days of quarantine
way back when we had to do that, and I
was so content. I just finished a job that was
one of the best times of my life personal experience
wise and work wise. I was about to go onto
something I loved so much, and that in terms of
(03:36):
work that's been kind of the dream forever, feeling safe
in it and feeling inspired by it. And energized by it,
and it had just been so rewarding working with such
brilliant people as well that I'm still so close with,
So it was really personally impactful as well. It was
a period of time where I just felt contentment.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I heard Julia Roberts interviewed once and she said, for her,
the best time was the time between when one job
ended but you knew another one was beginning. And I
think it's so many actors have this feeling of we
never know where the next job is coming from. I mean,
if you're one of most actors, so that feeling of
(04:16):
safety bookended by work. Do you think that safety for
you is part of contentment, that the incredible instability of
being an actor and not knowing, well, perhaps I will
be able to pay my mortgage or can I look
a year down the line, and is it okay if
I go on holiday? Is it okay if I make
plans for my future financially because I have no idea
(04:37):
if I'm going to be able to underwrite that with work? Exactly,
the safety factor into happiness for.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You totally, because it also gives you a momentary sense
of structure of your life, kind of like what you're saying,
but it allows me to understand where I'll be and when,
so then I can start to shape my life. So
in that pocket of time, I felt that satisfied feeling
of being exhausted by something that you loved, something is
on the horizon. But now I'm dipping back into my
(05:04):
life life and I'm present with my friends and family again,
and I know where I'll be for the next chunk
of time, so I can also start to shape my
personal life in a way that when you don't know
when you're working next, you can't.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Except So what do you think the attraction of this itinerancy?
Because it is in this life that we live, because
it's certainly nothing that anyone It's so funny. Everyone always
talked about the unemployment as an actor, but no one
ever went you better get ready to live out of
a suitcase for the rest of your life and miss weddings,
miss funerals, miss christenings, miss birthdays, miss big family events.
(05:40):
Why is it so compelling?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I think there is just something appealing about I don't
know where I'll be this time, next month, or next year,
and I feed off of that, and I think there's
a certain element whether it's kind of partially self destructive
or just the thrill of the unknown that your life
hasn't fallen into a pattern, and because I personally wouldn't
be able to enjoy that thing is. I don't know
(06:04):
how people do it with families. I don't know how
you manage it once you have kids, because you know,
I've done this since I was twelve, and I've always
been really free, like I can drop everything and go
somewhere next week and just hop on a plane wherever
I need to be. I can be. That has increasingly,
like as I get older, I find it harder to
realize how sometimes I can be the friend who can't
(06:25):
really depend on. You know, I'm less dependable in my
personal life because of all of this, and I'm struggling
with that more and more as I get older.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's such a good point that I have felt like
such a bad friend, even though I know my love
remains constant always for my friends totally.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
But you kind of let yourself off the hook a
little bit because it's always been this way, because it's
always been this kind of you know, out of the blue,
I'll be the other side of the world, and I
forgot to mention that.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
It's a weird life. I don't have an enormous amount
of friends, I think as a result of it. I mean,
I have very few, but very very good friends, because
you say exactly, you don't have the time to maintain
the peripheral nice friendships that are lovely people to have
over for dinner once every few months. But I don't
have anyone like that because if I'm home, there are
like four people that I've got to say, because I
(07:11):
don't know when I'm going to be gone. Okay, so
what question would you most like answered?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I don't know. I've been racking my reins about this
and I have no answer.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I reject your question past.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I'm someone who feels quite content with the unknown. I
don't want to know about ma afterlife. I don't want
to know.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That's good though, that's very No one has ever said
that I am extremely content with the unknown that's really present.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It excites me more because it means that there's no
definitive answer. It means it's just so much more space
for your own interpretation or to just sit in it
as is and makes you much more present. And I
don't know, Yeah, not trying to control things with answers.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So hold on. So you come from a family who,
quite literally because they're journalists, are expected to have answers
in a way about cultural relevance, about politics, the facts
of science. So it feels like it was quite an
answer based sort of environment. So how do you fit
into that?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I think it's the inverse, it's question based environment. So
they source the answers from the experts, from the people
who do know, and their job is to facilitate and
ask the right questions to invite that conversation. And so
maybe that's why then, because yeah, sitting around that table,
it's always been the most intellectually simulating debates, but without
(08:43):
any kind of definitive answer. It's always an awareness of
unless you're stating statistics, your stating interpretation.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, it's interesting because this all dovetails into the comfort
level with untelledness. And I don't mean that in a
way that it is applied to women and mental health.
I mean in terms of of again the itinerancy of
being an actor, the idea of being so present, or
(09:12):
being more interested in the present than in the unknown,
or sitting worrying about gosh, I wonder what the answer
that is, rather than what is it relkas Head, keep
asking the questions until you live the answers, so you
live the answer in a present moment rather than sort
of seeking it as this thing that's always just up ahead.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, And I think that keeps you open to the
idea that there's no definitive answer, that it's just like
a collection of information, and you kind of quilt that
together and you're okay with that fas to form. Yeah, yes,
because it frees me. I think I'm not trying to
get to an end result. I think I would just
kind of reject that.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I say that to myself. I wrote a book with
that as the central thesis, clearly because it is something
I long to be able to really fundamentally. No, there
is no there there. It is here and only here,
and that's completely fine. That's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think, isn't that the most freeing thing there? Because
it's like this idea that I don't know, when you
just sit in the idea that everything is made up
and it's all just happening now and.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
It is all fiction. I agree, it is all and
it's a fiction that.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Is like, yeah, giant playground, and so it just immediately
becomes I mean fascical.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Look, I think you've got a right like you know,
the Dow of Boynton Babes.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
The World by Lucy Winton.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Yeah, what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
For you?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
All my female friendships and predominantly only when I was
thinking about this question that I actually take time to
really like analyze the relationships in my life. And I
think we talk about romantic relationships so much more and
romanticize them, whereas like female friendships and best friendships, we
just don't. And my friend Ellen and I we're best
friend since we were eleven. It's been so unconditional, it's
(11:18):
been so dependable, and we've just given each other so
much grace to really grow and change as people, and
in so many ways we're really different, and yet relentlessly
we're still there for each other. And it's just it's
kind of remarkable.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
What you just described is probably the ideal of what
a relationship would be with a romantic partner, maybe just
as women. That's how the trajectory has always been. That's
what you're aiming for. I love that your definition of
is the female friendship. You have the blueprint for that
in your life and that one doesn't really need much
outside of that. I don't think I'm very interested in
(11:58):
why we're pushed on romantic relationships so much more than
we are on the fundament of friendship with whomever. That is,
whoever our best friends are, our best relationships are.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I feel like that's all just so like entrenched in
traditional and misogyny and women having to marry men in
order to have a bank account, yeah, and be able
to do anything exact. Now that that landscape is changing
so much, I think the rhetoric is changing, and I
think you're seeing it in a wave of women having
much higher standards and saying kind of I'm actually not
(12:33):
going to settle for this what previously you kind of
had to. And I think part of that is like
more fulfillment in your life in general, but also realizing, yeah,
and these friendships you get.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
All of that, I mean, one hundred percent, and if you.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Nurture that, it is such a strong foundation for your life.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So interesting, You're right, like, I don't even think about
the systemic programming that I have, what I realize, even
though I have always longed just to do what I
do for a living and acting has been this great passion, always, always,
always this idea that I had to find that person
to love and to love me, and that superseded everything,
(13:11):
and that was always the quest, and that not happening
until my late forties. I've realized I thought of that
as a failure and it's such utter bollocks.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Because it's this constant message that you're not enough on
your own, and that women aren't enough on their own,
certainty validated by the presence of a male partner. Yeah,
and then you're successful, Yeah, even if you've had the
job all along. Then you're stamped with okay, decent person exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And the idea of belonging, like my boyfriend doesn't want
to get married, my parents weren't married. Now I'm like,
where does this come from?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
This?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And it's an idea about belonging, of someone choosing me,
because I think I was programmed to believe someone has
to choose me, and when you look at what we
do for a living, fundamentally that's also what it is.
You have to get chosen over all the other people.
But it really just comes back to lack of self worth.
For me.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I've done so much analysis of like why do women
feel this way about it because of who my sister is.
When I was sixteen, she handed me the book Kunt
and told me that the patriarchy is taking advantage of me,
and the tampon industry are taking advantage of me. Read up.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Your sister should be talking in schools.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
She should be. She runs a monthly event, Sex Talks,
and it's everyone leaving feeling empowered.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
And sounds like she was ahead of the curve because
that word like empowerment, which is what women, particularly young women,
I think, are getting to feel now for the first time,
and it be acknowledged by outside forces. I'm much older
than you, but I remember when my aunt and my
mother were protesting at Greenham Common about the nuclear bombs
(14:48):
that we were going to be housing, and I remember
how they were just presented on the news as these
dirty hippie women who were not tethered to families or people.
They were so othered because they stepped out of exactly
what you said, this heteronormative idea of what a woman
is supposed to be, and all that stuff goes in
(15:09):
and we are now I'm picking that. I watched my
nieces and my friend's children and like you know, speaking
to young women like you, it's so great to know
that it's just not acceptable anymore, that you don't accept it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Still, it is happening so slowly, and you're grateful that
it's happening across the board, but you realize how much
of everything is entrenched in that. And still the media
I think plays such a huge role in keeping us
static in that in the differences of the way men
and women are portrayed.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
What do you think do you think that we should
be going on marches against the patriot I'm trying to
think of, like.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
What, I don't know, because it's so entrenched in our fabric.
It's built by them for them. Supposedly, the answer is
to pick a lane, so you can't disassemble the thing
in its entirety all at once. So choose something that
you're very passionate about changing and then start shipping away
at it from there, so then everyone does that. I
(16:05):
think that's a brilliant whole thing starts to crumble, and
I do think that is the dissemination of information. That
is about speaking with each other and going, oh my goodness,
this is you feel this too, and this has been
your experience too.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So someone like looking at you and they would see
a picture of you looking beautiful in a magazine and
then there would maybe have the opportunity to listen to you,
for example here or somewhere else and correlate. Ah, a beautiful,
successful woman can also be interrogating ideas that need to
disassemble shit that we've all just been accepting. And perhaps
(16:41):
it's a very big ship and it is taking a
really long fucking time to turn it around. I do
think it's happening, but I agree with you the slowness
of it is glacial and it's fucking annoying. I really
like that. I like that about picking a lane, shipping
away in that way.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And I do think we're lucky because we do have
the opportunity in this job to you know, even like
with Chevalier this film, where you get to hold a
mirror up to people that is kind of trojan horsing
your message. You're getting to offer really tangible experience of
empathy that is otherwise a more analytical process of someone
(17:20):
having to read about a thing and then imagine, whereas
with film and the entertainment industry, I think you are
just offered it. There's very much more kind of visceral
experience of that, and.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's immersive too. It's a very elegant way of giving
meaning to what we do beyond the sort of raw
going to the movies. Having an experience, particularly with stories
like Chevalier, you can introduce an essentially a raised story
and it be beautiful and entertaining and devastating and raw.
So that's very interesting. You see what person, place, or
(17:56):
experience most altered your life.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
This is going to be such an obvious answer, but
it's starting this job when I was twelve. Well, my
first job was playing the young bittrick s Potter and
Miss Potter so cute, and I think I didn't realize
how much this job has impacted my formation of self
until I started doing therapy and in our first session,
(18:23):
I was going through the trajectory of my life so
that she kind of understand who I was, and then
part of it was you know, and then I started
acting at like eleven twelve, and she's like, oh, okay,
that's going to be a big one. I was like, no, no, no, Honestly,
I have such a healthy relationship with it, like you know,
another actors present in the families you know, expectations, not
controlling parents by any means really supportive, solid foundation or
(18:46):
good or good. And then we started to unpick it,
and it's like, oh no, this is the source of
so much shit to be untangled.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
So what pit one thing just because I'm fascinated because
you're so little and such a formative moment, Yeah, what
is one pathway that that led you down that you've
had to unpick?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I mean the main two is obedience and then trusting
my own feelings. So I find that my relationship with
obedience was the main thing that came out of these
therapy sessions that I was really stunned by and disappointed with,
because I think in most workforces in industries, obedience is rewarded,
and especially obedience without question is rewarded. But in our industry,
(19:30):
I think there are really tangible ways that's rewarded. And
from the bare minimum, the way that you're hitting your mark,
you turn up with all your lines.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Learned, someone else always has the last word, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And obedience becomes really tangible and constantly reinforcement, especially as
a child, and I think as a young girl to
have obedience as a kind of a goal every day
in a very tangible way, and your work environment is
really odd.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And my sister has always challenged every source of authority
around her. She just kind of arrived that way, and
I became the antithesis of that, and I hate it.
I don't challenge authority enough and have to make such
a concerted effort to do that as I get older.
And it's not even like seeking validation or praise. It's
(20:14):
just seeking confirmation that you've done the thing or exceeded it.
And that's it. It's not that I need the praise,
it's that the box has been checked. And I've always
looked outside of myself for that confirmation rather than do
I feel like I've done it? Or am I aware
that I've done enough?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
God, that's so interesting, Lucie.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So that was the one thing and then the other. Yeah,
I was trusting my own feelings because this job is
really odd, and that as much as your brain knows
or you can analytically know that this is a separate
person to yourself, a separate experience to yourself, your body
still experiences the chemical reactions to whatever you're telling it
you're going through. So from that age, I haven't solely
(21:00):
been me, and so I find it hard to tap
into my gut instinct and to know my own feelings
and thoughts through and through I really challenged them. I
don't completely trust them because I'm constantly changing them. I'm
constantly leaning into someone very different from myself.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Do you find that, because in a way, the more
one is not oneself, it actually throws into relief who
you are. The more you feel not yourself, you get
to actually then connect with Oh goodness, that is actually
very other than who I am.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yes and no, Yes, when I'm playing someone really far
from myself. But in recent years, I've played more characters
who were more similar to parts of me, or parts
of me that I wanted to exercise more and lean into.
And so then when they start to bleed into one another, yeah,
I do find it hard to find myself and I
(21:57):
do feel like I have I'm not kind of floating
between personalities. I do have a strong sense of self.
I just find that hard to trust sometimes.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
And it's so interesting, And when you're talking about obedience,
it's so funny how it's like there's a whole universe
of expansion going on behind the incredibly structured notion of
like obedience and ticking the boxes and playing by the
rules so that you have an exterior that is cool.
And then I love I love talking to you because
(22:29):
it is like there's this whole universe of freedom going
on behind it, which is fantastic, because I got to
tell you, without one you sound patronizing. As you get older,
that universe of expansion just becomes more and more and
more who you are and what you live.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, I'm already feeling that more since the age of
twenty seven onwards. I've felt that more than ever, that
I'm turning away from things that don't feed me anymore
and that I was locked into focusing on even though
it didn't help help me. And also just yeah, that
freedom of just like everything is made up, and so
I think part of that because you can slot into
(23:06):
so many different identities with this work, the idea of
the ultimate self isn't so precious. I'm not as protective
of it. It's much more of a fluid thing. So
that's a good thing and then also a harder thing
because you can tap into any feeling, any point of
view and all of that.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, No, it really does. I think what's really great
is that it doesn't sound like you punish yourself for
the person that you were, but rather they're sort of
continuing to fold into the person that you're becoming, which
maybe is a really healthy way. You know, we take
all of our imperfection with us in our little backpack
(23:44):
as we move along without being angry about it, which
I think is what keeps us stuck as people.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, and I think I used to do that a
lot when I was younger, like stepping out of the
way that I wanted to be was unacceptable and kind
of punishable, whereas now it's just kind of like everyone's
winging it.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And do you think that you more trust your own
feelings or is that something that you continue to kind
of have to work on, or do you feel that
you do it more naturally now?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
I think I'm less analytical of it of just like
observe the feelings and let it pass, and then what
resonates and what is true will keep coming back and
you'll circle round to it again. And also just yeah,
there's a kind of detachment from permanence. So it's like
my mum has always said it to us, and I
always repeat it to my sister and my friends. Of
like all of your feelings are valid. Just listen to that,
(24:33):
and it doesn't mean that it has to stick, but
just like observe it and then let it pass. So
I think I'm learning to like justify myself less by
kind of clinging to those feelings and just living it
all flow. There's this book The Island by Aldus Huxley,
and in it there's this paragraphs that just says, go lightly,
and it just talks about like it's dark because you're
(24:55):
trying too hard. Go lightly lightly, And it's just the
most beautiful of just like we're so trying to clutch
to these things that we think are true and real
in us, and actually there's so much that we said
for just letting it go and just being and observing
and then letting it pass.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I love that, Gosh, particularly with the more challenging things
in life, to go lightly when you feel like you're
being pulled into the abyss of whether it's grief or
sadness or depression or whatever. To be able to remember
that in those moments is so wonderful because it's simple
and it's direct, and it's actually prescriptive, which is great.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I know, it's kind of cliche, but it is, it
is how it shall be exactly. I've got the full thing.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Oh my god, it'd be so lovely. Read it.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yes, lightly, child, lightly, learn to do everything lightly. Yes,
feel lightly, even though you're feeling deeply, Just lightly let
things happen and lightly cope with them. I was so
preposterously serious in those days. Such a humorous, little prig.
Lightly lightly is the best advice ever given me when
(26:04):
it comes to dying. Even nothing ponderous or potentious or emphatic,
no rhetoric or tremulose, no self conscious persona putting on
its celebrated imitation of Christ or little Nell, and of course,
no theology, no metaphysics, just the fact of dying and
the fact of the clear light. So throw away your
baggage and go forward. Here A quick sounds all about you,
(26:27):
sucking at your feet, trying to suck you down into
fear and self pity and despair. That's why you must
walk so lightly, lightly, my darling, on tiptoes, and no luggage,
not even a spongebag, completely unencumbered.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Oh lows, No, I'm crying.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Isn't it beautiful?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The fact of the clear light?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, that book is full of that kind of sentiment
of it's definitely a little dated in areas, but it's
full of understanding small self in the big, big landscape.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Exactly. Gosh, I don't have anything to add to that
is so beautifully said and so beautifully put in your life.
(27:23):
Can you tell me something that has grown out of
a personal disaster?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
The ability to self soothe and the understanding that the
most impactful strength is self sourced. So when I've been
going through a really difficult time and I'm still in
the thick of it and still drowning in the feelings
(27:49):
and going through it and realizing that I'm coping and
that I'm getting through something that I didn't think I
had the kind of ability to the equipment too that
I thought would be that would wash me away and hasn't.
I'm still here and I'm just coping.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So would you say that's like there are moments where
you get to be the observer around turmoil and can
see that you're sitting there shuddering and sad or whatever
the moment is, but you can see I am actually
still here and I am coping with it, and that's
the thing that will carry you on.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, And that I'm stronger than I thought I was. Yeah,
that you're more unshakable than you think you are and
not that and that doesn't mean any lack of a
kind of emotional response or impact. It hasn't you, but
it just means you'll go out the other side. There's
this Emmy lou Harris song Boulded of Birmingham that she
wrote when Grandpasons died, and in it one of the
most devastating lyrics is well you really got me this
(28:48):
time And the hardest part is knowing I'll survive, And
that I think resonates so much of just like regardless
of the intensity or severity the loss, the grief, you
come out the other side and you look back. And
I think that's why it's also important to always keep
a diary, because then I look back on these moments
where I was just like drowning in it, and here
I am a year later or whatever or however long after,
(29:11):
and having grown from it.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Would that be your how too? In terms of a
practical application, that keeping a diary, that journaling, that being
able to physicalize the emotions that you're going through and
then being able to revisit it and see that you've
evolved or that you moved on from it. Is that
a practical application, do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah? And I think just in terms of also having
to verbalize, having to articulate exactly how you feel. And
there are times when I'm writing and it's like I'm
just not getting it, I'm not conveying it. So I
keep writing and it's such a cathartic purging of your feelings,
so that then I'm aware don't take as much of
it to someone else, and it stays kind of ugly
(29:53):
in its honesty, and so it can be much more cleansing.
And then you look back on it and it's just
this constant reminder of everything returns to the middle. It
goes really high, and it goes really low, and it
always comes back to the middle. Everything passes, and so
it is kind of moving to look back on that
and realize you're own strength, or realize, like, my god,
what a huge reaction. I'm fine, it was fine, And
(30:16):
I was young. I know.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's so funny. We've been moving around since COVID, into
so different countries, different houses, and I found a box
of diaries and one of the entries from when I
was ten and it was so funny. It literally went,
this is my last entry because I am going to die.
(30:40):
I have so many of them, I mean so dramatic,
and I.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Have so many like that around ten years old, and
it's like my sister is annoying me so much, she
is going to cause me a half stack. I'm going
to die. Here's my will. I need everything to my sister.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Sisters. What would be your last meal?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Pancakes?
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Now hold please? Do you mean the thick American pancakes
that we did not grow up eating? Or do you
mean the thin pancakes that we would have on shrive Tuesday?
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Exactly, absolutely, the thin, thin pancakes from shrive Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
That's a great exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Americans grapes with lemon jam, A huge stack of them.
I used to just put them away on my mom.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's so funny. My mother used to stand at the
stove and she would be there for forty five.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Minutes after the other, after the other, after It's.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Also about the heat of the pan, you know, once
it's got to the optimum.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Because she would always pancakes for the doll ones. They
would always be and once it's got to that brilliant temperature. Also,
I would be able to defend in a court of
law that lemon and sugar is the greatest of all
the saturations and toppings.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
It beats, it.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Beats everything there with you.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And people have tried to took me into natlla and banana.
I've actually even tried to took me into jam. I
cannot ever leave lemon and sugar.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Jam with a little bit of lemon, I do recommend
a sin sin.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
That may because you have to have that sharp sour.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yes, yes, that's why. That's why the lemon and sugar.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Just oh my god, it's so it's so true. I
do remember being in a really fancy restaurant with my
dad when I was probably about nine, so inappropriately in
this very fancy restaurant and they were making crepe suzette
at the table. So they were making these pancakes and
they light the pan on fire, and the guy he'd
done this huge performance, and I remember we put the
(32:50):
pancake on my plate with a flourish and I remember
standing up and going, it is just a pancake. And
my dad was just horrified and he was like, shut up,
it's crepes, is it? And I was like no, it
is a pancake, like mummakes fraud. It I was calling fraud.
It was like everyone was agreeing that this was something
(33:12):
that clearly was not.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
But that's the kid that I wanted to be. That's
the kid with the lack of obedience that challenges the
status quo.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh my god, Lucy, it's so interesting because like.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I was that child.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I'm so jealous.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
But you know what.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Happens to that person is you get beaten by that,
You get absolutely rounded on for being that. It's so
interesting that there is clearly a punishment, and I think
it is particularly for young women. Absolutely if you are
left having to unpick the not speaking out, and if
you speak out, believe me, you will get savaged. But
(33:49):
there's no easy way out of it.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And I wonder if at least it has to be
getting better. So more and more women doing that is
more and more examples to young girls who then become that.
And so I keep using her as a reference because
I look up to her so much. But my sister
has faced that and now it doesn't seem to shake
her because she's been able to look to those women
(34:13):
and see that and be like I want to be
the loud voice rather than the quiet acceptance.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Well, maybe there's the middle path as well, that the
loud voice also eventually doesn't become the loud voice exactly,
it becomes the voice. It becomes the voice of reason.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But also the loud voice has been the voice of reason.
It's just been such an unreasonable environment. That's exactly is
protest to state the most obvious.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That feels like it goes into exactly what you were saying.
You choose the path that you can actually affect change on,
and perhaps that is speaking to the young actors that
you then work with. That's when you work with a
twelve year old actress, it's a very different conversation than
someone was perhaps having with you. I've found that on sets,
like my area of expertise is that I am now
(34:56):
a fifty three year old version of maybe the twenty
three year old woman that I'm also working with. So
there's so much exchange. There is so much that can
be offered between the two of us, which then forges
a pat and also the young men who are then
observing and listening to those conversations or that we're having
conversations with. That is how you fashion a different narrative
is by having that narrative totally.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
And I think you can see the progress and that
happening of it being less a priority to be a
quote unquote team player in our industry where I'm very
aware that I've come into the industry or at least
become an adult at a time when enough women have
been saying that, don't prioritize being liked. Because see, even
when you're a team player, I don't know, it's just
having to learn to be comfortable with people being uncomfortable
(35:42):
by you just stand up for yourself and it's worth it,
and it's so uncomfortable at the time, and you feel
like such a problem.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I've noticed. It's the way that one delivers. Yes is
what you do. And I hate that the idea that
a woman has to sort of speak more quietly or
she's called shrill. But it's not that. It's sort of
about being a human and going no, no, no, I
connect with what I'm saying, and I can have the
patience to say what I need to say in a
way that it is more likely to be heard.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, because you don't have to rise to the way
that it's been brought to you. Yeah, you can be
there in issue too.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Respect Oh Lucy, it's just been the most wonderful conversation.
It's so brilliant talking to you. You're such a fantastic person,
you really are. I'm so glad that you're out there working.
You're such a great actor and you're such an excellent person.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Thank you so much for having me, and also thank
you so much for doing this podcast, and thank you
for all the times you have been the loudest voice
and honestly, profusely, profusely grateful for you.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Thank you, Darling.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
One Fantastic Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me
Mini Driver, Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with
production support from Jennifer Bassett, Zoey Denkler and Ali Perry.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
The theme music is also by Me and additional music
by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Special thanks to Jim Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella,
Anick Oppenheim, A, Nick Muller and Annette Wolfe, A wkpr,
Will Pearson, Nicki Etoor, Morgan Lavoy and Mangesh had Tickadore
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