Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may
not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses suicide.
You can reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at
nine to eighty eight from iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three.
I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona, the
(00:22):
story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his
wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and escaping
into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert
Fisher and I need your help, Part two without further
ado Option number one escaped and is alive. This is
(00:46):
what I believe. It's also what many lead investigators believe.
In two thousand and six, less than three months before
he dies, the first case detective John Kirkham tells the
Arizona Republic, quote, no one believes Fisher's dead in a cave.
We would have found some traits of his body by now.
In twenty eleven, FBI agent Bob Caldwell says, quote, all
(01:08):
our evidence has been that he's the kind of guy
who wouldn't go kill himself. He's out there hunting, fishing, chewing,
tobacco with a sore back. In twenty fourteen, then Detective
Hugh Lockerbie says that Fisher is likely alive somewhere in
the West where he can hunt fish and keep a
low profile. The FBI keeps Fisher on its ten most
Wanted lists until twenty twenty one, which makes sense only
(01:30):
if you think he's alive. Many of the people who
know fisherre best also think he's alive. Of the top
thirty I interview, including friends, coworkers, and investigators, twenty believe
Fisher is alive, seven think he's dead. Three are fifty
to fifty. Not only do I believe Fisher is alive,
but I think he premeditated the murders, planning them in detail.
(01:51):
In advance, I interview three familicide experts. Fifty nine out
of fifty nine cases David Wilson studied were premeditated. Neil
Wautale tells me that premeditation is a strong element in
the majority of cases. Taylor Oathouse says, quote, the overwhelming
majority of familicides are premeditated. In the final months before
(02:12):
the murders, Robert Fisher, a control freak, is rapidly losing
control he's in pain popping pills. He needs surgery, but
is terrified it'll paralyze him. He catches an STI likely
gonnorrhea or chlamydia while cheating on Mary again. He grows paranoid,
Scared Mary will find out. He starts to withdraw from church, friends,
(02:32):
the gym, and then Mary finds out she got syphilis
from him. The spark On April eighth, two thousand and one,
only thirty six hours before the murders, Mary speaks to
her friend Beth Anderson at church.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
We were standing out on one of the balconies in
one of the buildings and I just said, hey, how
was your week? And she just looked at me and
she said not very good. And I said, oh my gosh,
are you okay? Like, are you sick or what? She's like,
I just can't do this anymore. I can't do this
anymore with Robert. I'm going to end it. I don't
care what I have to do to get out, but
(03:07):
I am done. I am done. I was like, okay.
It really kind of took me by surprise. I knew
she wasn't happy for a long time, but I just said,
I'll say a prayer for you. I didn't know what
else to do.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Beth sees Mary again the following night, around nine thirty
pm at church, right before the murders.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I asked her how she was doing, based on our
conversation the day before, and she said, you know, I'm
hanging in there. But she kind of like made a
motion with her hands, like we can't talk about this
right now. I mean, Bobby was nearby, not right there,
but nearby, and I knew. I think it was just
weighing so heavy on her. I don't know if she
was afraid she would start crying or what. So I said,
I get it, I get it. I said, I just
(03:47):
want you to know I'm praying for you, and she said,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I need it.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Remember a few weeks earlier, Mary's friend Kim Davidson stopped
by the Fisher House. Mary's hand was injured. She acted weird.
Six days before the murders, Robert showed up at church
looking for Mary and the kids. Mary seemed afraid of him.
Beyond confiding in friends. Did Mary take any steps to
leave Robert? Maybe police find a pamphlet for budget Mini
(04:12):
storage in her abandoned forerunner. Was she thinking about moving out.
Was she afraid Robert would hurt or even kill her?
The night of the murders? There's a hammer in the
master bedroom. Robert is OCD, a minimalist, obsessed with cleanliness
and order. He doesn't normally leave anything lying around, let
alone a hammer. Did Mary hide it as a defensive weapon?
(04:33):
Did she buy a twenty five caliber pistol for protection?
The caliber bullet according to one police report with which
she was shot a gun Robert wasn't known to own.
There's much I can't answer, However, here's what I think happened.
My theory. To be clear, this is the line between
facts and theory. What follows this theory informed by fact?
(04:54):
Robert knows it's over. Mary's going to divorce him, but
he thought he could salvage things. And Mary finds out
he gave her syphilis. She knows he cheated again. This
is the spark. She confronts Robert, and now he really knows.
Game over, a final loss of control. Sixty six percent
of familicides are triggered by family breakdown. Robert is about
(05:16):
to lose his family. Soon, he'll be alone, in pain,
facing surgery, possible disability, public humiliation, A failed husband, a
failed father. As soon as he knows Mary's going to
leave him, he starts debating what to do. In the
weeks leading up to the murders, he makes a choice,
burn it all down literally. He decides to kill Mary,
(05:37):
wreak his house to explode, and critically escape, start a
new life, purge the old, rise from the ashes. He
chooses to kill his kids too. To him, death is mercy.
They'll suffer more if they live motherless orphans of murder.
The murders likely take place early on April tenth, two
thousand and one, only three days before Robber's fortieth birthday,
(06:00):
which I don't think is a coincidence. Robert plans everything
meticulously he can cox a cover story and starts to
act it out once he escapes. He wants people to
think he died in the wild. That way, at some
point they'll stop looking for him, or at least some
people will. According to former FBI agent Bob Caldwell, a
week or two before the murders, Robert tells his mom
(06:22):
that he's lugging seven hundred pounds of supplies into the wilderness.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Okay, seven hundred pounds of supplies. What did he take
where would he have deposited it at, And being as
Robert has a bad back, it's not like he was
hiking over a mountain pulling all this stuff up, and
it had to be somewhere he could easily get to
it and deposit wherever he was going to put it,
whether he could drive up to it or is a
very short walk.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Or he lied. He never actually transported seven hundred pounds
of supplies into the woods right before the murders. No
one ever found any of his belongings, let alone an
easily accessible secret seven hundred pounds stash. It makes more
sense to me that this is a red herring. Mom,
I just drag seven hundred pounds of supplies into the wilderness, which,
(07:06):
of course, after the murders, his mom tells police. On
April ninth, at popular outdoor outfitters, Robert makes a big
show of asking Ian, the eighteen year old store clerk,
the last person to see him alive, how to purify water.
This is only a few hours before the murders, so
either Robert hasn't planned them yet unlikely, or again it's
(07:26):
a red herring. Mister cashier, how do you purify water?
Ian gets the impression that Robert is planning on camping
for quite a long time. Robert tells him he's going
to draw water from a cattle hole. He's worried about viruses.
At seven point fifty five, he swipes his credit card.
He and Brittany head home. Mary and Bobby get back
around nine point forty. A neighbor hears Robert and Mary
(07:48):
fighting around ten. At ten forty two, Robert's caught on
camera at a nearby ATM. To me, this seems like
part of the show. He knows he'll be filmed at
the ATM. I'll circle back to this in a bit.
After the ATM, no one knows if Robert goes home
or flees. That's the old story, But I found two
new witnesses who see Mary's for runner at the Fisher
(08:10):
House early on April tenth, a neighbor at three thirty am,
and a newspaper delivery man, Bud Wolf, at five thirty.
So after the ATM, Robert returns home, though it's unclear
whether or not he stops anywhere else before doing so.
By the time he gets back, Mary and the kids
are likely asleep. The kids usually go to bed by nine,
Mary by ten. If Robert heads home directly, he's there
(08:34):
by ten fifty pm on April ninth. At one thirty
am on April tenth, his cell phone powers down. It
never turns back on. My best guess is that Robert
commits the murder shortly before shutting off his phone, so
sometime around one am on April tenth, and then he
remains at the house for at least four and a
half hours. He's still there at five thirty, but gone
(08:55):
by seven thirty. He likely flees sometime between five thirty
when Bud Wolf sees Forerunner and six zh three when
the sun rises. The murders are brutal, but Robert is
used to gore. He has military training. As a firefighter
and EMT he responded to bloody accidents and suicides, including
one in which someone killed himself in a car and
(09:16):
it burst into flames. He then worked for thirteen years
in stressful hospital settings. His former coworker, John Hatfield tells
me that people like Robert they have.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
A low anxiety level. When things need to get done.
You just kind of know what you're going to do
because you're trained, you're educated, you know what the process is,
so it's almost reflexive. You don't have to think about it,
you just can do it. It's almost like you're stepping
back and even if though people may be on a
verge of death, you know that you're doing what you
need to do to prevent it. Through training, the anxiety
(09:46):
level is just not there.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
A Fisher family friend who doesn't want to be named,
tells me a story that illustrates, in a bizarre way,
how calm Robert can remain under pressure. Sometime in the
eighties or nineties, when hair was big and full of spray, Robert,
Mary and some friends were sitting around the campfire making
s'mores when Mary's hair caught on fire. Quote it wasn't
like flaming, but it was on fire, and Robert stood
(10:09):
next to her and was just looking at her. I'm like,
he's a fricking fireman, what's going on with that? Like
put out her hair fire, but someone else did it
with their jacket, so he froze. He was just looking
with interest, very cool and collected. That's it. It was
really weird. It's ironic that this man so desperate to
be a hero, does nothing when his wife's head literally
(10:31):
catches on fire. All this to say, even though I
doubt anyone but the most callous sociopath can murder their
family and not feel anxiety. Robert is as prepared as
anyone to handle stress and gore, both via his training
military firefighter, EMT hospital hunter and his personality. He doesn't
buckle under pressure. He remains calm under fire, observing fire,
(10:55):
lighting fire. He can execute his plan. His family just
do what has to be done. After the murders, Robert
(11:30):
riggs the house to explode. Why please say he wants
to destroy evidence. I don't buy it again, Military firefighter,
EMT hospitals, Robert must know a police will immediately suspect
me and be the fire won't destroy everything. If he's
rational enough to successfully pull off a triple murder, blow
(11:50):
up his house, and escape for twenty three years, he's
rational enough to think these simple logical thoughts. I think
he blows up the house for two reasons. First, as
a violent, forceful purge, detonating the past to start over fresh,
incinerating who he was so he can rise anew. According
to familicide expert David Wilson, annihilators like Robert want to
(12:11):
demonstrate power first over their family and later over the
family's demise.
Speaker 6 (12:16):
It will be dramatic. There's an element of staging. Usually
staging behavior is very important. Has rarely discussed how they
want the bodies to be found in a particular way.
They want to tell a story.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
In this case, I'm still in control. My family didn't
break up. I destroyed it, but I showed mercy. Everyone
was asleep when I killed them, as quickly as possible
so they wouldn't suffer. And now I'm blowing up my house,
burning it down, getting rid of the past, starting over,
and this a fresh start. Is the second reason why
(12:51):
I think Fisher blows up his house to destroy photos
and videos that can help police find him. John List
did something similar minus the fire, after killing his family
in nineteen seventy one. He cut his face out of
every photo he could find. It's one of the reasons
he successfully escaped and lived on the lamb for eighteen years.
In two thousand and one, when Robert kills his family.
(13:13):
There are no smartphones. You take pictures, you develop them.
It's pricey. Choose your shots wisely. Fisher is smart. After
two years of research, I've only been able to find
twenty eight photos of him as an adult, and some
grainy video. I'm unaware of any surviving photos or video
of Fisher taken after nineteen ninety nine. Now, if my
(13:34):
theory's correct, Fisher makes one big mistake. He leaves his
fire safe locked. The safe works, it protects some photos
and videos, a diabolical advertisement for the efficacy of the safe.
I suppose I'll return to this in a later episode.
After rigging the house to explode, Robert flees. Where does
he go? I don't know, but few people think he
(13:56):
drives immediately to the forerunner spot. When police later find it,
they also find his dog Blue. Patty Blackmore, the vet
who rescues Blue, and her friend Samantha Wright, who's there
that day too. Think Blues alone in the woods for
only a short amount of time.
Speaker 7 (14:10):
If he had gone without food and water for ten days,
he would have been a lot sicker than he was.
He was hungry, but he wasn't amazing. He'd probably been
there there too.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, So you don't think he had been there full
ten days?
Speaker 8 (14:23):
I don't think so, No, because he was still pretty
I mean, yeah, he wasn't amazing.
Speaker 7 (14:28):
He looked very, very healthy. Yes, he was hungry, but
not ten days, starting without the water, because he by
that point he would have been dragging or dead, you know,
especially without the water.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
If Blue is alone for only a day or two,
where was he before? Does Robert hide somewhere else after
the murders and then abandoned the suv and Blue? Finally,
why does Robert choose this particular spot? Let me start
with that. I think Robert carefully selects the Forerunner spot
as part of his plan to trick law enforcement, the public,
and the media into believing he walked into the the
(15:00):
wild and died. He's supposed to go camping at this
exact spot only a few days after the murders with
family and friends, including John and Mary Beth Rodin.
Speaker 8 (15:09):
I think that was a big clue that he gave us,
and no one would listen.
Speaker 9 (15:12):
What do you mean he had a specific spot that
he wanted to go. Normally, it didn't matter too much. Okay,
you picked the spot, and being John picked the spot,
we go places. I knew at this particular time that
this was the spot, and it's really wanted to camp
with this one spot.
Speaker 8 (15:29):
And because I knew that was weird, I went to
the police and said, hey, because of this, I know
we need to look. I said it will go with
you and they said, no, we can't. We're not going
to do that, and that's where they found the car.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Jim road In. John's brother supports this claim.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Mary Beth said go look for him there.
Speaker 10 (15:46):
They didn't do that for ten days.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Robert's friend and former co worker, Ashley's Arsty also points
police in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
If he's alive, and if he's in Arizona, you'll find
him in northern Arizona told him a goot.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Young friend and boss Lori Greenbeck says the same thing.
When you knew that he was missing, did you try
to tell the authorities to look in that area?
Speaker 8 (16:08):
We did tell them.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
One of Robert's friends and co workers, who doesn't want
to be named, also tells police early on to look
for Robert at the spot where they later find the Forerunner.
Speaker 10 (16:19):
Because he used it as a staging area.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
But in my mind it was how close it was
to the reservation.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I'll get back to that in a minute, but first
ask yourself, why does Robert abandon the suv at a
spot where he's supposed to go camping in a few days,
A spot immediately pinpointed to police by multiple people. Now,
initially police don't actually search it. Instead, it's located nine
days later by Greg the itinerant camper. It would be
(16:45):
easy for me to criticize the cops here, but in
this case, I don't think that's fair. Arizona is huge.
They have limited manpower. They can't instantly examine every single lead. Instead,
focus on why Robert chooses this spot. I think he
thinks police will check it quickly based on tips from
people like the Rodents, the anonymous co worker, Ashley's Zarsky,
(17:06):
and Lori Greenbeck. They'll find the forerunner and then they'll
divert limited resources to this spot, thereby concentrating law enforcement
in the wrong area, giving Robert more time to escape.
He also chooses it because it's frustrating and time consuming
to search. It's only eight hundred and ninety feet from
the Ford Apache Indian Reservation stayed in local law enforcement
(17:28):
aren't permitted to cross onto tribal land without permission. They
get it, but it takes time. Furthermore, this spot is
only one hundred and fifty feet from Apex Cave. Police
immediately think Fisher's in the cave. Swat teams circle it.
They call on a plumber who snakes in a drain camera.
He's not here. They move on to other caves. He's
(17:48):
not in any of them. All of this takes time.
If you're on the run, if you want to complicate things,
if you want to buy time to escape, if you
want people to think you died in the wilderness. This
is the perfect spot, a spot where you're supposed to
go camping in a few days, a spot police will
likely search quickly. They'll find the forerunner next to an
Indian reservation and a cave in the middle of a
(18:11):
two point nine million acre national forest. It's brilliant, really.
Some people dispute that the forerunner's proximity to tribal land
complicates the search. They're wrong. Heala County Detective Brian Havy
tells me that it was, in fact an issue. Consider
a different incident from twenty eighteen. Two men parachute out
of a vintage World War Two plane above the reservation.
(18:33):
Their plane crashes into the forest below. They survive, but
can't find it. They put up a reward and end
up in a battle with the tribe, which, according to
the Arizona Republic says they're encouraging people to violate tribal
and federal law. The tribe is understandably very protective of
its land and sovereignty. I reach out to several officials
(18:53):
for comment. No one responds. I file a record's request
with tribal police. They deny it. Some people might say
that Robert chooses the fore Runner spot not as part
of an elaborate escape plan, but because he knows it,
he likes it. It's peaceful, remote, beautiful. This is where
he chooses to die by suicide. If he wants to escape,
(19:15):
he could keep driving to another state, even Mexico. The
border is only three hours away. So why does he
stop here? The simple answer Occam's razor to die. But
what about Blue? If Robert walks into the woods to die,
why does Blue stay with the fore erunner not Robert? Here? Again,
(19:36):
are Patty Blackmore at the vet and her friend Samantha Wright.
Speaker 7 (19:39):
If Blue is outside and Robert Fisher wandered off, I
think Blue would have followed him.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Do you see any scenario in which Robert Fisher goes
into the wilderness and says stay and Blue does not
follow him.
Speaker 7 (19:50):
No, it would have to be a really good dog
for that.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So now Robert the control freak is unsurprisingly strict with
his dogs. He trains them well. You see it in
home videos with his black lab Ruger.
Speaker 11 (20:04):
Ruger Good, get right, Boke, Okay, stay, Rugers good dash,
good dog.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
One of Robert's friends, who doesn't want to be named,
tells me a story. In the late eighties, Robert would
claim pots and pants in front of Ruger, training him
not to be jumpy around loud noises, not to be
gun shy. That way he could bring him hunting. The
friend had stunt blanks from a movie set. He gave
them to Robert one Friday night in his backyard. Robert
told Ruger to sit, and then he started shooting blanks.
(20:40):
At the time, there was a football game taking place
at a nearby high school. Police surrounded the house, the
friend said, and Robert came close to getting shot. This
incident has never been reported. In the nineties, after Ruger dies,
Robert gets Blue, an Australian cattle dog. By all accounts,
he also trains Blue well, but no dog can be
(21:00):
trained to remain indefinitely within suv as their owner wanders
into the woods to commit suicide. Here's a limit for
an expert opinion.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I consult doctor Amy Learn.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
A board certified veterinary behaviorist and the owner of Animal
Behavior Wellness Center in Richmond, Virginia.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
I completed an internship and a residency, had to write
a peer reviewed article and have that published, and log
tons and tons of hours in animal behavior study, different
topics like learning theory, psychiatry, medical neuroscience, different psychiatric medications,
learn about lots and lots of different species of animals.
(21:37):
And then here I am today.
Speaker 12 (21:40):
And you see a world in which Robert Fisher walks
off to commit suicide and Blue just sits there by
the truck and doesn't follow home.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
No, I can't, honestly, let's just say that this is
the best trained dog in the universe ever. And he
asked him to say, and he can stay for hours,
and he walks off and commits suicide. At some point,
that dog has to get up, he has to got
to go to the bathroom, he's got to eat. He
gets up, and it's been a long enough time that
the owner's not there, and he's like, I think maybe
(22:13):
I can get up, you know, looking around, like am
I gonna get in trouble. No, I can get up.
I don't see anybody. I'm gonna get up now. So
he gets up, and then once he gets up, he
doesn't remember that he should go back to his spot
and sit down again. He's like, what do I do now? Okay,
I ate something, I drank something. Where's my guy? Like,
let's go play, let's go on a hike, let's do
something else. And so he's gonna start sniffing around. And again,
(22:34):
this isn't a search and rescue dog, but he still
has a dog sense of smell, and so he can
track and find out where Robert went to some degree
and go there. Now again, that depends on the terrain
and if he has to climb up and over or through.
We all watch those old jailbreak movies where somebody just
crosses the river and then the dogs never find them
(22:56):
because they're on the other side of the river. But
you know, I don't know if any of those kinds
of things would have gotten in a way, but I
believe that Blue could have tracked him if he was there,
you know, within a mile two miles of the car,
and then gone to find him and stayed with the body.
Speaker 12 (23:11):
Do you think that is likely that he would have
tracked him if he could.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I think if they have the bond that you're thinking
they do and that you're describing, that he would have
tracked him, because again, that's the only person being that
he knows, that's his way out, that's his food provider,
and he's going to be like, when are we going home?
Speaker 5 (23:29):
Right?
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Most of the time, if you think about going with
your dog to a park or the woods or hiking,
they're with you. They'll go run off and chase something,
and they'll come back and check in with you. And
most of the time that's what a hike looks like,
even if you're off in the wilderness. And so for
Blue to stay somewhere well his person left, or for
Blue to really go off, if he wasn't chasing a
(23:50):
rabbit or some kind of prey item, then he would
have stayed or continued to check in with his person.
Speaker 12 (23:55):
And if his person had been nearby, or he had
been able to track his person, which was Robert, even
if Robert had died, it would make sense that Blue
would use Robert as his base instead of the vehicle.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
So the vehicle, I think, so if Robert really was
going to commit suicide. I think that Blue would have
followed him as much as he could have, no depending
on where he meandered and if Blue could go with him.
And then you would see a dog sitting by the
owner's body. Here, I am, here's my owner. I'm not
going to leave him. I'm going to stay here.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
There are many examples of this. In fact, we included
one earlier in this episode, the dog who stayed with
its owner's bodies from fall to spring after a murder
suicide in the Arizona Wilderness. Here's another. In twenty twenty three,
a Jack Russell terrier remained with his owner's body for
two months in an isolated, rugged part of Colorado until
searchers found them. Experts aside, examples aside, Let's just use
(24:49):
common sense. Does it make more sense that Blue remains
near the Forerunner as Robert walks into the wild to die,
or that he stays near the Forerunner because someone picks
up Robert and drives him away. If you like this show,
(25:11):
please download our first two seasons, Missing in Alaska and
Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, visit meon thirty
three dot com or follow me on Twitter at John
waalzac j O, n Wa l Czak. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Now.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
One of the most confounding questions of this case, why
does Robert leave Blue alive? Is this an act of
love from a man who just killed his family? I
don't think so. First, Blue would have served as an
early warning system, alerting Robert if people or vehicles approached. Second,
I think Blue is part one of a three part signature,
(26:01):
Robert telling the world. I was here One Mary's fore Runner,
two Blue, three Robert's black ball cap, the one he
wears the night of April ninth at the ATM. Hello, police, Here,
I am on camera at an ATM, wearing this hat.
It's me Robert. If you're thinking, who cares, it's just
a hat, consider this. When police find the fore Runner,
(26:25):
none of Robert's belongings are in it except the hat.
No camping equipment, no guns, no clothes, nothing, just the hat.
What's even more interesting is where they find it. Keela
County Detective Brian Havy is the first cop to reach
the Forerunner.
Speaker 10 (26:40):
It was an unlocked, unsecured vehicle, bare bones, nothing in it,
and the only thing that I recall being in there
was a ball cap on the seat, and I think
it was on the back of the saint, just threshting there,
you know, Pat, or in the in between the two,
just reshting there like the arms. No up on the
(27:00):
where your shoulder would be. He was sitting right there
likego his place there.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Like it was placed there, And it must have been,
because it didn't just fall off his head neatly onto
the corner of a car seat. So Robert dumps the
foreerunner and Blue and the ball cap, three signatures I
was here, and nothing else, none of his stuff. Question,
if Robert chooses to die by suicide in the wild,
does it make sense that he drags all of his
(27:25):
stuff with him, except, of course, the black ball cap
he wore at the atm. Does it make sense that,
instead of just walking to a nearby hill or tree,
he takes every single item with him except the hat,
and no one ever find anything, and Blue stays with
the forerunner. Does that make sense? Not to me? Furthermore,
(27:45):
it makes even less sense when you consider his health.
He's in pain, he needs surgery, he's popping pills. Jim Roden,
his friend, tells me about a hunting trip they took
in nineteen ninety seven, four years before the murders.
Speaker 10 (27:58):
Because of his back, I carried his pack, his gear
for the night back into the back country.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Robert is in so much pain on this trip, Jim
has to carry his pack for him. Take a guess
at how much the pack weighs. Twenty five pounds. Twenty
five pounds. That's nothing. So the idea that a suicidal
Robert Fisher carts everything with him into the wilderness, except,
of course, the black ball cap, and none of his
stuff has ever found is ridiculous. So too is the
(28:28):
idea that he morphs into a speedy little gollum, dragging
everything deep into a cave. Not to mention, he seems
to be addicted to opioids, which at some point will
run out. Now let me circle back to the Forerunner
when police find it. It's very clean. Some dirt, some
pine needles, but no mud caked inside or out, even
though the windows are rolled down and the weather has
(28:50):
at points been bad sleep snow, wind, rain, no muddy footprints,
no dog prints. I've been to that spot several times.
Each time it was dry, my car got absolutely caked
in dirt. If it was wet, it would have been
caked in mud. There's no way to make it there
without getting dirty, except I suppose maybe driving very slow
(29:12):
or cleaning it once you get there, like say, if
you want to remove evidence. One more question, why does
Robert take the Forerunner instead of his truck. Well, the
Forerunner has more cab space in which the store stuff
or sleep. The fore Runner is more inconspicuous, less flashy, quieter,
it gets better gas mileage. Neither vehicle is four wheel drive,
(29:33):
so that's irrelevant. More space, less flashy, better gas mileage.
Robert Fisher is spiraling out of control. His back hurts,
his knee hurts. He needs surgery. He's scared it'll paralyze him.
He's popping pills. He cheats on Mary, gets gonorrhea or
chlamydia and syphilis, gives it to Mary. She finds out
(29:53):
and confronts him. It's over control gone. He's about to
be a divorced, middle aged cyphilid man. Pitied by the community,
he decides to kill Mary and the kids to blow
up his house to escape. He starts to play out
a cover story. Tells his mom he lugged seven hundred
pounds of supplies into the wilderness, tells the rodents that
(30:14):
they have to go camping at this exact spot near
young He tries to act normal, goes to the movies
with Mary to Brittany's Honor Society event. Stops at popular
outdoor outfitters where he asks an eighteen year old cashier
how to purify water. He heads home, fights with Mary,
drives to the atm and Mary's suv, which is caught
(30:34):
on camera. Wears his black ball cap, also caught on camera.
Goes home again. Everyone's asleep. He kills them, slits their throats,
first Mary, then the kids. He shoots Mary in the
head the fuck you shot, turns off his phone, cleans up,
packs his stuff into Mary's Forerunner, breaks the house to explode,
drives off, goes somewhere, drops off the Forerunner in the woods,
(30:58):
cleans it up, places the black ball cap on a
seat corner, dumps blue only eight hundred and ninety feet
from a reservation, one hundred and fifty feet from a
cave in the middle of a two point nine million
acre national forest. Good luck to the cops. Someone picks
him up and helps him escape. He lives. He's still
alive today. This is my theory which I test on
(31:21):
Scott Still. Lieutenant Hugh Lockerby, You've looked at this for
the better part of my life, so you know more
than me. If there's something wrong with my logic, I
want to hear you tell me.
Speaker 13 (31:31):
I like your theory and trust me. We've discussed that
same theory and there's nothing to really refute it. There's
nothing to say that that isn't what happened. I just
don't know. I can see why you would think that,
and I think you are looking at through a lens
that is pretty accurate because you're looking at things from
a factual standpoint, and it definitely definitely could have been why.
(31:53):
I don't know if it's I can't say it's for
one hundred percent accuracy though. You just don't know right now,
but it's definitely something that he could have done, and
that's why he did what he did.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
One thing I always ask our team before these shows
air is if I say something or right something written
me to shreds because everybody else will a minute will
come out. Do you see generally any flaws with my
logic or anything. Did anything I say pop out that
just doesn't make sense to you?
Speaker 13 (32:17):
Or yeah, I mean I'm trying to think he said
a lot, So I'm trying to go back and rip
it to shreds. I'm trying to figure out what I
could rip you on.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Nothing. He doesn't rip me to shreds now. That doesn't
mean he endorses my entire theory, just that he gets
my logic. In previous seasons, I resisted stating my theories.
Not this time. I think Robert Fisher escaped. I think
he's alive. I want to find him and I need
your help. Let me leave you with this clip from
(32:49):
my interview with Miss Honey, Britney Fisher's teacher, the second
to last person to see and speak with Robert Fisher
that we know of, because I think someone helped him.
I'll get to that in a later episode. Here's Miss Honey.
Speaker 12 (33:02):
He had a.
Speaker 14 (33:02):
Plan, and I know he did. I feel it, and
I feel like often wonder what family he has now
and who his kids are now, and my senses he
started over and people like that can be very manipulative,
and hopefully no one else will be his next victim.
Speaker 12 (33:21):
End of Part two.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Next time, I'm missing in Arizona.
Speaker 12 (33:26):
Why are you trying so hard to find me? Because
this is a fascinating case.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I want to solve it, and because you hurt so
many people, I want to help them.
Speaker 11 (33:34):
All Right, come on, then ask me some real questions.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
You can reach us by phone at one eight three
three new tips that's one eight three three six three
nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips at
iHeartMedia dot com, tips at iHeartMedia dot com, online at
meon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter at John Waalzac,
Jo n Wa l Czak. Paul Decan is our executive producer.
(34:04):
Chris Brown is our supervising producer, Hannah Rose Snyder is
our producer. Paul Gemperlin is our researcher. Ben Bolan is
a consulting producer. And I'm your host and executive producer
John Walzac Special thanks to Jim John and Mary Beth Rodin.
Cover art by Pam Peacock Neon thirty three. Logo designed
by Derek Rudy. Our intro song is Utopia by Ruby Cube.
(34:24):
Please download the first two seasons of our show, Missing
in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven, and if
you're so inclined, give us a five star rating. Missing
in Arizona is a co production of iHeartRadio and Neon
thirty three