August 31, 2023 • 45 mins
A former employee of Oscar-winning producer Scott Rudin breaks his silence and reveals what it was really like to work for the man The New York Post called “Hollywood’s Biggest A-hole”.
Watch and Subscribe to our YouTube Channel @NavigatingNarcissismPod
Follow me on social:
- Instagram - @doctorramani
- Pod Instagram - @navigatingnarcissismpod
- Facebook - @doctorramani
- Twitter - @DoctorRamani
- YouTube: Dr. Ramani’s YT - DoctorRamani
I want to hear from you, too. Have a toxic topic you want me to explore? Email me at askdrramani@redtabletalk.com. I just might answer your questions on air.
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and/or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast.
EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS Jada Pinkett Smith, Ellen Rakieten, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Meghan Hoffman VP PRODUCTION OPERATIONS Martha Chaput CREATIVE DIRECTOR Jason Nguyen LINE PRODUCER Lee Pearce PRODUCER Matthew Jones, Aidan Tanner ASSOCIATE PRODUCER Mara De La Rosa ASSOCIATE CREATIVE PRODUCER Keenon Rush HAIR AND MAKEUP ARTIST Samatha Pack AUDIO ENGINEER Calvin Bailiff EXEC ASST Rachel Miller PRODUCTION OPS ASST Jesse Clayton EDITOR Eugene Gordon POST MEDIA MANAGER Luis E. Ackerman POST PROD ASST Moe Alvarez AUDIO EDITORS & MIXERS Matt Wellentin, Geneva Wellentin, VP, HEAD OF PARTNER STRATEGY Jae Trevits Digital MARKETING DIRECTOR Sophia Hunter VP, POST PRODUCTION Jonathan Goldberg SVP, HEAD OF CONTENT Lukas Kaiser HEAD OF CURRENT Christie Dishner VP, PRODUCTION OPERATIONS Jacob Moncrief EXECUTIVE IN CHARGE OF PRODUCTION Dawn Manning
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are some toxic workplaces created by the cult of genius?
Is narcissism a cornerstone of success? On this episode of
Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by someone who had the unfortunate
experience of working with Scott Ruden, one of Hollywood and
(00:22):
Broadway's most prolific producers who is also considered one of
the most abusive bosses in entertainment. Ruden's projects like Zoolander, Clueless,
No Country for Old Men, The Social Network, and the
Book of Mormon have earned hundreds of awards. In fact,
(00:44):
he's one of just eighteen people who has pulled off
the quadruple entertainment Crown called the Egot, winning an Emmy, Grammy,
Oscar and Tony. But you can't spell egot without ego.
For over four decades, Rudin's antics were somewhat celebrated. The
(01:09):
Hollywood Reporter billed him as the most feared man in town.
The New York Post said he was Hollywood's biggest a
hole and in the narcissism worshiping world we live in.
Neither of those articles was meant to.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Be a critique.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Now, after dozens of employees spoke out about the abuse
they allegedly suffered. Rudin himself has acknowledged his quote history
of troubling interactions with colleagues and said he's stepping back
from projects. What was it really like to work for
(01:50):
a man who reportedly threw everything from a glass bowl
to a baked potato at his employees? My guest today
says he had a front row seat to all of
the toxic, violent, and demeaning behavior. This podcast should not
(02:10):
be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice.
Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and
or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any
medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters
(02:31):
discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may
be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed
are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating
in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of
(02:52):
Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia or their employees.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I want to start at the top.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Can you tell us about your career ambitions at the
time that you started with this job.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, of course, So I went to school for film
and television and media in general and straight out of college,
I was working on set for a game show. I
wanted to be a producer or just more kind of
like large scale film and television work. I was young
at the time, so I was still kind of figuring
(03:27):
it out, but I knew I certainly didn't want to
work in licensing, which is what I was doing right
before I started working for Scott.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So then the opportunity comes up. Were you excited to
work for him? I mean the films that he did,
were you know, over one hundred Oscar nominations. It must
have been in a way, not knowing anything, a thrill
like this was it? This was going to take you
into the work you wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Oh yeah, I was super excited. They reached out to me,
the office manager at the time, recruiting me, asking for
an interview, and so to get this opportunity come directly
to me, it kind of felt like it just landed
in my lap a little. And then having heard of
Scott Ruden and then doing more research and seeing the
wide array of film and television that he had worked
(04:15):
on and projects that I really admired and still admire
and still love, felt like kind of really my first,
like real foot in the door. And I do believe
that certain opportunities are like once in a lifetime, and
this did feel like that once in a lifetime opportunity
to work for such a prolific producer who had worked
(04:35):
on projects that I admired. Despite the fact of what
I had heard and all the rumors, I was like,
I have thick skin, and seemed like everyone kind of
had like a certain reputation to a degree and Hollywood,
and I had worked on sets, and I had worked
long hours, and so I kind of felt like I
was prepared for it.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So let me ask you this, what were the rumors
you were here? What were the sorts of stories you
were hearing before you took the position?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Right? So my colleague at the time kind of laughed
when I told him I was going to take a
job for Scott Rudin, because he was like, oh, I
had a friend who worked for Scott. She only lasted
a couple of weeks, you know, kind of just how
volatile he could be. And there was a couple articles
out there from earlier on in his career, though the
(05:25):
last really big expose you can call it was written
in like I think it was probably like two thousand
and nine or two thousand and seven at the time,
so it had been like going on at decades since
those last reports came out. So I was shrugging them
aside because I knew myself, and I figured, you know,
couldn't be that bad.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Because you were young.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Did you have a framework for like what a toxic
boss was before you took the position.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
No, definitely not, because when I worked on said at
the game show, it was long hours, but I was
just a production assistant and everyone on set was really kind,
even though like sometimes things would get a little intense
just because we're trying to get something shot in a timeframe.
So it was intense, but no one was necessarily like
cruel or abusive. And then my boss when I was
(06:18):
working in licensing, I had already known. She was a
friend of a friend and couldn't have been more non toxic.
I mean, she was supportive and great. I had no
idea what kind of level of toxicity that would entail.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I actually feel sort of angry right now as I'm
even thinking about this, is how much we don't talk
to young people about what toxic leadership looks like, that
this is a thing, and that if it's described to you,
in fact, we frame it as dues paying that kind
of get through it. It's not that big a deal.
I'm kind of imagining anyone in your position who's so young,
(06:57):
who wants an opportunity, but you literally don't have a
framework for what a toxic boss is. I think that's
actually really an important thing to take away that, as
cynical as it may be, that I don't think it's
necessarily a bad thing to actually talk to young people
who are entering the workforce about what this actually is
and what this looks.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Like, especially in film and television and Hollywood in that
industry where it's almost kind of an expectation to endure
certain environments and kind of pay or dues a little bit.
So it's like young workers have no idea what it's like,
but then when they experience it, especially in Hollywood or media,
(07:39):
it's almost like they feel like they're expected to take
it and it's a part of the process. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Do you think that people like Scott sometimes pray on
young people, people who are just coming out of school
at the beginning of their careers because maybe there's a
belief that you don't know better.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah, I think people who are more well established and
a bit older, they aren't going to endure that to
begin with. And I think nor do they have to
take certain opportunities because they're already established, They already have
their foot in the door, their career path is already
well on its way. But yeah, I would say that
he's veering towards this younger workforce because he knows that
(08:22):
they're going to be more apt to endure it. Because
when you were in his office and you looked around
at kind of the median age, I was only a
couple of years out of college and I was still
the oldest person, like aside from the office manager at
the time, you know, I was still the oldest assistant
or intern.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, there was a sort of inherent disposability that these
young people carried in that office, and that kind of
dehumanization really bothers me, especially when it's a young person.
So tell me about meeting Scott for the first time.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So I went in for I think it was really
only one round of interviews, and it was with Scott
and then his two associate producers at the time, and
it was pretty cordial for the most part, he was
actually fairly polite and kind and rather charming. I think
the only time I ever saw him like laugh or
(09:15):
smile at me was in that interview. There was no
indication that anything would be like the way it was,
you know, flash forward two months or so, so kind
of alleviated those like fears I had of oh my god,
am I going to be able to handle this? It
was kind of this reminder of like, oh, he's just
a man, and he was kind and cordial enough.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
What was interesting, as you say that, as I'm imagining
and we think about, you know, people like who have
these kinds of bombastic personalities, I could stretch a little
and say a narcissistic personality. We think about love bombing,
and it seems like all the love bombing you got
in this job was like a smile and a minute
of kindness. We often think of like the dynamic that
(09:57):
applies in a new job where somebody's trying to you
over in recruitment and you're like, oh gosh, there's all
these great things that are going to happen, but it's
all relative.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
And you were told so.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Many and you'd read perhaps so many things that were
like ooh, it's a really toxic, difficult guy, and if
he got the little bit of a laugh and a
bit of kindness, that might have been all it took
to say, Okay, I got this right.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
And to give him some credit, he did get me
a Christmas gift.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
But you know, well there you go.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I mean, so I know, right, you know, I do
know what you mean right where he kind of like
was predisposed to this, and he knew like there's only
a certain level of his personality that he could show
in that interview, because of course you go into an
interview and you see kind of like the volatile nature
or what he was like, there's no way you would
(10:47):
take that job. I'm sure some people might, but I
certainly wouldn't have. And so it was kind of to
lure me in a bit to see that softer side
of him, whatever you want to call it. But I
think you're entirely right.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
So after that, what was the first time you saw
the real Scott?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So after that, I was kind of like slowly transitioning
For a week or so, I had quote unquote of
my two weeks at my job, but it didn't really
turn out that way because I would go to the
office really early in the morning Scott's office, train for
a couple hours, then go to my other job, and
then go back to Scott's office at the end of
(11:26):
the day to train for the rest of the evening,
whether that was like eight, nine, ten o'clock whenever. And
so I think that week or two where I was
kind of transitioning and training is when I first got
a taste of what the hours and kind of like
work life was going to look like, which was like
(11:49):
very long hours, very go, go go. But didn't really
see much of Scott during that time, and he wouldn't
really pay much attention to me because I was training,
and so I I saw him raise his voice a
little bit, get kind of volatile, but it wasn't until
I really kind of fully started and was in the
office from start to finish when I started to see
(12:13):
him be volatile and angry towards me and the other assistance.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
What was that like when he would be volatile, what
would that look like.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
He would raise his voice, he would slam doors, and
the types of language she would use would just be
really degrading language. He would make you feel inferior, words
like useless and stupid, and moro on and just anything
to belittle the person he was talking down to. It
(12:45):
could happen to anyone for any reason. It was the
littlest thing that would cause him to be so volatile.
You think of like the Devil Wears product.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
You know, I was in charge of coordinating his schedule,
but also making sure he had a copy of his schedule,
and it would be something as minute or as small
as like a spelling error on the schedule that would
make him so angry to the point where he would
start kind of cursing and yelling and belittling.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
We never believe that that's the kind of thing that's
going to set someone off to such a degree. Right,
First of all, it's never acceptable to use that kind
of language, to use that kind of tone in a workplace. Ever,
you could maybe imagine that perhaps if somebody transferred ten
million dollars of the company's money into and it was gone,
maybe some anger, maybe some loud volume, this is a
(13:44):
typo on a calendar. Were there other examples of those
kinds of instances, That kind of stuff being what would
create the volatility in the workplace really.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Could come down to anything, whether it was the office
being disorderly in a way he didn't like, or not
getting tickets to a show, or not being able to
get a hold of someone on the phone, certain things
that we just had no control of. He wanted to
talk to someone and we couldn't get them on the
(14:16):
phone because they weren't answering, or they would were busy.
It was our fault, it was the assistant's fault. It
was the phone assistant's fault for not being able to
get a hold of someone even after trying, or if
someone just didn't want to schedule a meeting with him,
or someone didn't want to give tickets up because they
had done it a million times for Scott and he
(14:38):
never showed up to the show, and so they were
done giving these tickets, and so he would just become
volatile at the littlest things. You never knew when it
was going to happen. You could do everything right, and
you could do everything in your power to kind of
try and navigate that or foretell what it might be
that might set them off, but at the end of
(15:00):
the day wouldn't really matter, because he would find something
to be upset about.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
My conversation will continue after this break. How would the
staff react. So if somebody was the target of this volatility,
the person who couldn't get the person on the phone,
the person who couldn't get the tickets, how would the
people in those positions, what would you observe happening for them?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
How'd they react?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
You would kind of just have to sit there and
take it and maybe say sorry, but then maybe not
say anything, because saying something might just make it worse.
And sometimes he would just stare at you and wait
for a response, and then as like a bystander, you'd
all just like turn your gaze, which makes you feel
a little bit guilty at the same time as the
(15:50):
person who has to just say nothing in that situation
and let the other person get verbally attacked. But at
the same time, you knew that that was you an
hour ago, and it was going to be you in
a couple hours. Men, when Scott wasn't in the office,
we would all joke and laugh about it, and that
was really our big coping mechanism while we were all
(16:12):
in office together. It was kind of just to make
light of it because what else he was supposed to do.
But while it was happening, yeah, there wasn't much you
could do or say that would fix it or make
him feel better.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I'm curious what was harder being on the receiving end
of it or watching someone be on the receiving end
of it of his volatility, of his rage.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
For me, watching other people be subjected to it, because
you almost become numb to it at a certain point
of him doing that to you, it could just put
up that wall and compartmentalize it. But because there was
so many different assistance coming in and out of rotation,
there was just like new people that became kind of
the victims of his aggressiveness. It was just really hard
(16:56):
watching other people, people that became your friends and not
of this family, endure this and deal with this.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yes, you've said a couple of things here that actually
just shed light on these kinds of toxic workplace situations.
Number one, the fact that there was some support amongst
all of you, that you were all witnessing it, you
were all going through it together and being able to
turn to each other. As hellish as it was, there
was actually a really important value to that. It would
(17:27):
be a lot worse to be stranded on the desert
island alone.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
That's actually supported by the research literature on this, like
having colleagues and those circumstances can actually help people. There's
a couple of other things you brought up too, is
this idea of watching someone else go through it can
actually be equally traumatic. And there was also that anticipation piece,
it's a matter of time before this target comes looking
for me, and it's a reminder of how bad it
(17:52):
actually can be. And then there's the third thing you
brought up, which is you were all actually put in
one of the worst positions that beings could be put into,
which is to be asked to do something, to have
this tremendous, horrible consequence that you would have to face
if you couldn't do it, but to be very out
of control around getting it done. So if he basically
(18:13):
said to you, I want you to alphabetize a thousand
pieces of paper, that's just something you had to do.
You could put your head down and get it done.
But getting someone else on the phone, getting tickets that
can't be done, things that were fully out of your control,
there is a unique cruelty to that. Because you had
no control, you couldn't get those things done.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
You eventually kind of just become numb to it and
kind of resigned to it because it doesn't matter how
well you do or how well you think you're doing.
It's just a matter of time before you see him
lash out or have him wash out at you.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I want to go back to this one specific thing
you brought up.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I know it's a detail, but it's a detail that
I think we could learn a lot from, which is
something as simple as the typo on the schedule. Right,
we're saying he reacted with rage. What did it really
look like when you did that? You make the type
of I don't know, a word is spelled wrong, there's
a period missing at the end of sense. Whatever, you know,
grand error you made. He comes in, he sees it,
(19:13):
he rages. What did that really look like?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Have like a specific memory in mind? Actually? And am
I allowed to swear on this swear away? Okay? Great?
He had his schedule in a very specific way. So
he had like a branded piece of stock paper that
was long and thin, and it had like his logo
at the bottom, and you'd have to print out his
schedule with the hour, who the meeting was with where
(19:39):
it was like in order and then print it out
and you would bring it to him, and if his
schedule updated or there was a change, kind of have
to like constantly be bringing him a new, fresh schedule
so he could like keep track of where he was
going and what he was doing. And I remember this
one instance where it brought him the updated schedule. He
(20:00):
was in his confidence room office and you have to
stand there while he looks it over and then just
shrugs you off or waves you off or tell you
like ask you like what the hell is this? Or
you know what's going on? But I remember him like
at one time crumpling it up, tossing it at me
and being like, what the fuck is this? And I
was like I don't know, and you'd be like get
the fuck out, go go, and you'd have to go
try and like figure out what was wrong. We're on
(20:22):
so little sleep, we're stressed, you're so exhausted, and like
those little details are so hard to manage, and so
I just remember like going through the schedule, nitpicking every detail,
like literally going like letter by letter till I found
that I had spelled someone's name wrong. But I remember
fixing it and then bringing back in fifteen minutes later
(20:43):
then it was good, Then it was fine. What always
stuck with me is he didn't want any of us
to learn, or to grow or to become better, Because
if that was the case, he'd be like, oh, like
thanks for bringing this, like just as a heads up,
like you know, that's not how you spelled this person's name,
you know, and you'd go, that's great to know, got it,
like clocked for next time. But you know, with him,
(21:04):
it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
About that, which is dehumanizing, right. It's feeling like a
cog in a wheel.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
It is.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
This word of use is disposability. There was no interest
in your growth. In order to be interested in a
person's growth, you actually have to recognize them as separate
human beings that could grow rather than I mean, it'sn't
be anything's pen in my hand. I'm not interested in
the pen's growth. The pen has a function for me,
and when it runs out of ink, I'm going to
throw it out.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I really struggle.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
With that dehumanization, especially when a young person's going through that.
On top of this, though, you had said something, we're
sleep deprived, right, how are we going to pick up
a spelling error? And that sounds like it was related
to these really long hours. Talk to us about the
structure of that. What did these long hours look like.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Well, his office was structured in a way where he
had his executive assistant, which was in charge of scheduling
and his kind of day to day operations and then
kind of make making sure that the office operations were
running smoothly. He had his phone's assistant, who, when he
(22:07):
was in office or out of office, managed, you know,
getting him in contact with everyone he needed to that day,
or if he needed a phone call set up, or
you know, he had a list of people he needed
to try and talk to that day. They were in
charge of operating the phones, connecting him, transferring him, conference calling,
so on and so forth. He had the docs assistant,
(22:30):
who was in charge of managing his scripts and making
sure that they were kind of accounted for, like an
archive of what he's read and what he hasn't read
and what he needs to read and make sure that
things are delivered. And then he had the theater assistant,
whose kind of main job was ensuring that he had
(22:50):
a certain amount of tickets every night or even day
to see shows, and even if he didn't go to
those shows, like he just liked to have tickets to
shows he might go to. And then he had the
interns that were making runs and things like that, and
so as his executive assistant, you have the scheduling aspect,
but then kind of overseeing to some degree kind of
(23:13):
the phone's assistant, docs and theaters, making sure like things
are in order, and then also trying to train people
that came in and out of those roles, which was
pretty frequent, and so some people you know, wouldn't be
in that position for more than two weeks. And so
I would be in really early just because he was
in really early. I would go in around like five thirty,
(23:34):
maybe like six to begin with, and then I would
stay through until you know, he left for the day,
and that could be eight o'clock, that could be ten o'clock.
I had that mindset of like, work hard, do well
at this job, good things will come. So you know,
I would start to go in earlier to make sure
that everything was set up for the day. But he
eventually started going in earlier too, And I don't know
(23:57):
if that's because he like saw me going in earlier
and you had to prove that he could be in
there earlier. Whatever, the logic. Maybe it got to the
point where I was going in like as early as
I possibly could. That whole day was upwards of like
twelve to fifteen hours. And then I lived in Brooklyn
at the time, and the office was in Times Square,
(24:17):
So by the time I got home, got showered, got
into bed, I mean, I was running on like four
hours of sleep at night. Sometimes that was kind of
day to day, and then even on weekends he would
have to have kind of a person on call. You
still had to make sure that his car was where
it needed to be when he needed it there, and
made sure his schedule was up to day. So you know,
(24:39):
I was really working like extreme hours every day, seven
days a week.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
These are extraordinary hours.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I mean, it sounds like there's a point at which
you started playing the time game. You were coming at
five thirty five, fifteen five. That does sound like a
game for him. It's a very cat and mouse. When
we hear a story like this, one of the things
people will say is like, no, no, no, they're just
so focused on their craft and their geniuses.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I beg to differ.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
If you're trying to beat your assistant into work, you're
very aware of your assistant, and so that doesn't feel
like the genius who's so absorbed in his work. That
feels like someone who is messing with you. That feels intentional.
So I have a couple of thoughts here. Number one,
that kind of a schedule and you are talking about
(25:29):
fifteen sixteen hour days and three four hours of sleep. Nobody,
even a young person, can make it on that little sleep.
So a spelling error, that's actually amazing that if those
are the only kinds of errors being made. Not to
mention the toll on your health that it was literally taking.
But I'm talking about executive assistant, phone's assistant, doc's assistant,
(25:50):
theater assistant, plus interns making runs. I imagine this dude
had a house or an apartment or something like that,
so there's probably a whole team of people who ran
the home, and people listening to this would say, if
I had this many people running my life, like, what
was this guy angry about every single thing? It's almost
like his feet didn't touch the floor. And this is
why I think it is important to use personality as
(26:12):
a framework here, because any normal human being who is
literally being insulated from everything in the world all the
kinds of indignities we have to endure, from not getting
a parking a lot at the grocery store, to you know,
having to press one press four plus six just to
get a doctor's appointment. All of that was taken care
of for him. This speaks to personality. The stuff that
(26:34):
actually ends up taking years off our life isn't the
big stressors. It's this day to day stuff. And he
didn't have any of that. So sure the listeners are thinking, dude,
what are you so mad about?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
No, it's baffling. I mean seriously, they just, like you said,
like those day to day stressors that I feel like
I have to deal with on a day to day
basis compared to you know what he really, like, what
is so stressful about? And I know it's stressful like
that job and producing, but it's almost like self inflicted
(27:05):
because you have all this lavishness and wealth and power,
but all he does with it is abuse it and
is angry all the time. Yeah, Like I don't know.
I like, if I had the wealth he did, no
one would ever hear from me. I would be just
like retired for life, like living just like the happiest life.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Now, I mean or for that kind of money, you
should be able to for the best shrink in the
world too, and clearly that wasn't happening either. So here's
the other thing is that you brought up this issue
of turnover. I actually would love to get a sense
of how long did people last in these positions.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
I was only there for about four months, and that
was considered really long. I mean, wow, some people would
be there for two weeks, and people would be there
for a month. I think the executive assistant before me
was there for like a month. I think the person
that was there after me was there for like a week,
(28:08):
and so it really was like a revolving door. I
saw a good amount of phones assistance kind of cycle through,
and that was kind of like the hot seat really
because it was like the most room for error trying
to connect, and like the phone systems were like so archaic,
Like honestly, you also think with all that money, you
would like just like update your systems or something. I mean,
(28:29):
he was like still using a BlackBerry, which is insane.
There was usually a period during the day where he
was like, okay, time for my calls, and it would
go through like a list of people that needed to
be called. It was just really hectic. He would just
like buzz in from the other room and be like
I need this person, transfer this person or connect to
this person. And it was just like so chaotic, and
so there was a lot of room for error with
(28:50):
the phone's assistant. Can only imagine what would happen if
like a call was dropped or you know, someone can't
be transferred in, or there's just kind of like a
mess with the phones. And so I definitely saw like
a good amount of people get cycled through there doc's assistant.
I saw a couple of people get cycled through theater.
I saw like at least ones get transferred through.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Did anyone take notice of this rapid turnover because a
place where people are leaving jobs after one, two, three weeks,
were there no other eyes on this place where people
are saying, Wow, people don't last a long time here.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
I think it's just one of those things that was
kind of well known, but it was kind of just
shrugged aside, like just because of the nature of the
industry and the nature of Scott Rudin himself. I mean,
you should have seen the like the stack of what
is it like like w four is whatever you set
up for tax season. Like the just stack of them
(29:46):
was so huge, and I was like, goodness, my gosh,
you only have like seven people working in here, like
over the course of a year, like that stack should
be like one fiftieth of the size that it was.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
But that's a good that's actually a really interesting measurement
of it. But I do think this idea of like, oh,
this is what people do. They get in the industry
and it's just rough and they can't hack it. I Mean,
my concern is always that that's the pathologizing of the
person who leaves the job, rather than the person who's
treating him that way. So it sounds that over the
course of a year there might have been in all
(30:20):
these positions said and told me one hundred people might
have gone through this these potentially Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I don't have like an exact number, but it was high. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Wow, we will be right back with this conversation. Okay,
So you brought up this phone's assistant thing because he
was talking to all these important people. When he'd be
on the phone, he's screaming at all of you obscenities,
You're all these terrible things.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
How would he treat the people he was on the
phone with.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I think if it was like a notable name, like
a reputable actor or rector, or you know, someone with notoriety,
like they were treated a lot better. I think if
it was someone that like kind of worked for him
to a degree, like, that's when you would kind of
get in that murky water of potentially being you know,
(31:17):
treated poorly or kind of aggressively.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
This, though, takes me back to the point I was
making before about how intentional it was, Just like with
you coming in the morning, right, if he was screaming
at the people on the phone the same way he
was screaming at all of you, still unacceptable, but we
might have been able to write this off to there's
something off about this very disregulated person who just goes
(31:42):
through the world screaming everyone doesn't matter who. And again,
it doesn't make it right. It still makes it abusive.
But what I feel, even out of the workplace, even
in a close relationship, knowing that they're choosing to do
that because that's a choice, Because he's choosing to be
nice to the person on the phone, which means he's
choosing to abuse you.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
That's a choice, right, Yeah, No, it's what it felt like. Yeah,
I mean he is a volatile man. I think it's
kind of a good mix of both of their potentially
really being something askew and kind of just that like
need and abuse of power. And I think he was
so corrupted by the wealth and the power that he
(32:22):
had amassed, because you know, I don't know what he
was like when he was twenty, and so I don't
know if this is a character issue that stems from whatever,
or if this is something that grew and festered as
his power and his wealth grew.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I know what my hypothesis is knowing how personality works,
and I think that it does become this interaction between
whatever the baseline personality is and then getting power. Because
I can tell you this right now, if you got power,
if I got power, we would never treat people that
way ever, right And I can say that with confidence.
(32:57):
We may not want the power, we may walk away
from the power, and we may not feel this desperate
need to keep the power. But I'm convinced that your personality,
being yours, mind being mine, other kind people we know
being that wouldn't go there.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Just wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah, I think power corrupts corruptible people.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yes, yes, very well said. That's really really well said.
So as you go through this, your four months are unfolding,
which must have felt like the longest four months of
your life. And if you really sort of played it
out in dog years, given how little sleep you got,
that four months was actually more like probably two years
in the job.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
What was the breaking point for you?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
That's a great question. Just got to a point where
I kind of just stopped caring. I stopped caring about
the way he treated me. I stopped caring to try
to hard at my job, and so things got like sloppier,
which led to him having more outlets or reasons to
(33:56):
kind of lash out at me. Got to the point
where he was kind of fed up with me. Me
his verbal assaults just really had no effect on me
at that point because I was like just so beaten down,
and I would, you know, fuck something up and he
would be like, get the fuck out of the office,
go work somewhere else, and so you know, I would
be like all right, like happily, would take my laptop
and go sit at a Starbucks or wherever the hell
(34:19):
until another assistant would call me and be like, we
need you back in here because something's happening, and I
would go back in you wouldn't even notice it. So
it got to the point where I think we were
both collectively just like done with each other. Where it
felt like, you know, said firing wasn't kind of like
a fake firing, it was like a okay.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
One day you just decided I'm not coming back anymore
and you didn't go back.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah, out of you know, kind of just respect for
the other assistants. I at least gave two weeks there
so like they could try and like hire someone and
train someone. And I remember like I had like given
my two weeks, and like I think I'll always remember this.
They finally got someone hired, like towards the end my
two weeks, but they weren't going to start yet. I
remember being like all right, like I'm out, like goodbye,
(35:06):
and Scott was like, what do you mean, like new
persons have started, and I was like nobody. I gave
my two weeks, you know, like I was done, And
I just remember some saying like okay, like thanks for everything,
like weirdly cordial in a way, like he wasn't like
angry or anything. And I found that really bizarre. And
so the last time I spoke to him was him
(35:27):
just being like, Okay, thanks for everything, and I was like,
didn't seem like there was you thought there was much
to thank me for. But I'll take it right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I mean, you served your purpose. And I imagine giving
two weeks might have been unusual in that job. People
were so wrecked that they were saying I'm out. So
that you were willing to do that and endure that,
but I guess if you knew it was fineite. That said,
though a lot of people would have said, I'm out.
I can't endure this. How has this experience affected you
as you've moved on to other jobs, other relationships, just
(35:59):
in your life, how has it affected you?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
It has totally changed my outlook on life for the better.
I no longer live in New York. I kind of
just up and move to Colorado because I was jobless
and kind of adrift, so moved out here. It was
one of the best things I ever did. I mean,
it was hard, but like compared to what I had
(36:23):
just been through. I was kind of just waiting tables
at the time, building this new life and this new
foundation for myself full life. My passion and my dream
was to work in the film industry, and that experience
definitely kind of tainted that for me. And I loved movies.
I loved the idea of movies. I loved going to
(36:45):
the theater. It was my happy place and it still
is my happy place. And you know, seeing his name
pop up on screen definitely caused a visceral reaction and
going back to like having this kind of new outlook
on life, not only the experience I went through to
try and achieve this stream, but then also watching Scott
(37:08):
behave in the way that he did. He had all
this power, and he had all this money, and he
had everything in the world really that so many people
would dream and aspire to, but he was still so
angry and so miserable, and I was like, that is
not the life I'm trying to lead. Like it doesn't
matter what quote unquote dreams I achieve. It's just a
(37:32):
matter of kind of the life I want to make
for myself. And I can choose to be happy, and
I can choose to be content, and I can choose
where to put my energy. I put my energy into
my friends and my partner and my family and my
pet and into nature and to exercising and all these
(37:53):
things that give me so much fulfillment in life, because
for so long it was is my career was going
to be my fulfillment and my dream and my aspiration,
and that was going to bring me joy and bring
me happiness. But that experience crushed me. And I don't
think it was necessarily the chasing of the dream as
(38:14):
much as it was Scott, but then also just looking
at what he had achieved, which is what I was
aspiring to, but to see how he acted towards people
and towards himself, and it wasn't how I wanted to live,
It wasn't how I wanted to treat other people. And
so I just prioritize the things that bring me joy
(38:40):
in life, and that is kind of my dream, really,
is to keep nurturing those things in my life.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
I mean, you just said a mouthful about healing. You
really really did, because I think that if that was
the reboot you took from this, and I'd imagine that
people who worked in these assistant positions over the years
had a whole variety of different fallout could quite easily
see how some people could have left that job and
had post traumatic symptoms, you know, anxiety and vigilance and
(39:11):
nightmares and feeling unsettled and feeling scared a lot, deeply,
deeply anxious, that kind of thing. I think that that
wouldn't have been uncommon either. But to have viewed that
as what I just saw, I want my life to
be the opposite. That's a big deal for someone, especially
a young person, to be able to take away from that.
What do you have to say to people who think
(39:35):
that enduring this kind of antagonistic, combative, and downright cruel
behavior it's part of paying your dues in the industry,
It's not.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
And you don't have to endure that. We've been conditioned
and kind of told that we must like it's a
part of the process. It's almost even been glamorized in
Hollywood itself. But we are worth more than that, and
we don't deserve to be treated like that, and we
don't have to endure that. It's not a part of
(40:10):
the process. The only way we're going to change it,
or at least a big part of the way we
can change it, is to reject it and to demand
better and to demand more than just abuse and belittlement.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I do know that there is a movement afoot amongst
assistants in the industry who are actually trying to organize,
and I think that that's actually brilliant. Once Scott was outed,
he issued this public apology. He said, much has been
written about my history of troubling interactions with colleagues, and
I am profoundly sorry for the pain my behavior cause
(40:56):
to individuals directly and indirectly.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
What did you feel reading that?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I felt his publicist or lawyer did a great job.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Writing as amen, Amen, And I think that as long
as there's people with these personalities out there, there will
always be publicists and lawyers who will get a job.
Thank you so much for your time, very very grateful.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Pleasure.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Here are my takeaways from this conversation. The cult of
unaccountable genius is doing lots of harm to people who
come into certain industries, especially politics, tech, media, and other
creative spaces, and particularly.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
To young people.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
It seems that since time immemorial, we have given a
free pass to the geniuses in our midst to behave
as badly as they want, but to frame it as
a necessary and even glamorized hazing ritual and that somehow
the genius is entitled to their holatile tantrums. They are not,
(42:03):
and no matter how successful someone is, to be in
the wake of dismissive, dehumanizing, and rageful behavior is not
healthy for anyone. In our next takeaway, toxic workplaces treat
people as disposable, and it's time we break out of
the myth that if I just work hard and tolerate
(42:25):
this for long enough, it will be a jumping off
place for my dreams. You're more likely to experience the
fallout of severe psychological stress than you are to be
launched into your own successful path. When you work for
a toxic boss, there is only room for their success,
and many people have wasted years waiting for their turn.
(42:50):
That's not going to happen, and you may actually harm
your mental and physical health as you wait for this
illusion to turn real. For our next takeaway, this story
reminds us that toxic workplaces aren't just about the abuse
we endure, but also about watching it happen to other people,
(43:11):
and that can sometimes be even more taxing. As individuals,
we may be able to compartmentalize what is happening to us,
but when it is happening to someone else, it can
be devastating to witness it, especially if we feel powerless
to help, and can plant a terrible seat of anxiety
(43:33):
as we wait and wonder when we will be the
next target. In this next takeaway, when we feel tempted
to give toxic bosses a free pass or just write
it off to the pressure they are under or their
fiery creative spirit, remember that in most cases, their behavior.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Is a choice.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
In this case, Rudent's raging at assistance was not mirrored
in his phone calls with movie stars and other high
status folks. A tyrannical sort of superpower of anyone with
a narcissistic personality is that they are able to take
their mask on and off, and that is intentional. This
(44:19):
isn't the uncontrollable spirit of a creative genius. This is
a choice that reflects the toxic person's belief that some
people matter and most people don't. And in our last takeaway,
the story of this one assistant shows us how complicated
(44:40):
these outcomes can be, even in a short time. Working
under such abusive circumstances, he acknowledges being changed by it
and In his case, the change wasn't all bad. It
ended up being an unexpected wake up call on how
to live life, which in essence was to live life
(45:03):
in the opposite manner of the boss he had witnessed.
But it also did mean giving up on a dream
of a career in the film industry. I'm saddened to
think about how many people have left industries because of
these experiences. But maybe when we leave these jobs and
(45:24):
settings to heal, we find a healthier path for ourselves.
A narcissistic boss is a masterclass on how not to
live and work.
Are some toxic workplaces created by the cult of genius?
Is narcissism a cornerstone of success? On this episode of
Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by someone who had the unfortunate
experience of working with Scott Ruden, one of Hollywood and
(00:22):
Broadway's most prolific producers who is also considered one of
the most abusive bosses in entertainment. Ruden's projects like Zoolander, Clueless,
No Country for Old Men, The Social Network, and the
Book of Mormon have earned hundreds of awards. In fact,
(00:44):
he's one of just eighteen people who has pulled off
the quadruple entertainment Crown called the Egot, winning an Emmy, Grammy,
Oscar and Tony. But you can't spell egot without ego.
For over four decades, Rudin's antics were somewhat celebrated. The
(01:09):
Hollywood Reporter billed him as the most feared man in town.
The New York Post said he was Hollywood's biggest a
hole and in the narcissism worshiping world we live in.
Neither of those articles was meant to.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Be a critique.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Now, after dozens of employees spoke out about the abuse
they allegedly suffered. Rudin himself has acknowledged his quote history
of troubling interactions with colleagues and said he's stepping back
from projects. What was it really like to work for
(01:50):
a man who reportedly threw everything from a glass bowl
to a baked potato at his employees? My guest today
says he had a front row seat to all of
the toxic, violent, and demeaning behavior. This podcast should not
(02:10):
be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice.
Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and
or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any
medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters
(02:31):
discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may
be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed
are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating
in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of
(02:52):
Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia or their employees.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I want to start at the top.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Can you tell us about your career ambitions at the
time that you started with this job.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, of course, So I went to school for film
and television and media in general and straight out of college,
I was working on set for a game show. I
wanted to be a producer or just more kind of
like large scale film and television work. I was young
at the time, so I was still kind of figuring
(03:27):
it out, but I knew I certainly didn't want to
work in licensing, which is what I was doing right
before I started working for Scott.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So then the opportunity comes up. Were you excited to
work for him? I mean the films that he did,
were you know, over one hundred Oscar nominations. It must
have been in a way, not knowing anything, a thrill
like this was it? This was going to take you
into the work you wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Oh yeah, I was super excited. They reached out to me,
the office manager at the time, recruiting me, asking for
an interview, and so to get this opportunity come directly
to me, it kind of felt like it just landed
in my lap a little. And then having heard of
Scott Ruden and then doing more research and seeing the
wide array of film and television that he had worked
(04:15):
on and projects that I really admired and still admire
and still love, felt like kind of really my first,
like real foot in the door. And I do believe
that certain opportunities are like once in a lifetime, and
this did feel like that once in a lifetime opportunity
to work for such a prolific producer who had worked
(04:35):
on projects that I admired. Despite the fact of what
I had heard and all the rumors, I was like,
I have thick skin, and seemed like everyone kind of
had like a certain reputation to a degree and Hollywood,
and I had worked on sets, and I had worked
long hours, and so I kind of felt like I
was prepared for it.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So let me ask you this, what were the rumors
you were here? What were the sorts of stories you
were hearing before you took the position?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Right? So my colleague at the time kind of laughed
when I told him I was going to take a
job for Scott Rudin, because he was like, oh, I
had a friend who worked for Scott. She only lasted
a couple of weeks, you know, kind of just how
volatile he could be. And there was a couple articles
out there from earlier on in his career, though the
(05:25):
last really big expose you can call it was written
in like I think it was probably like two thousand
and nine or two thousand and seven at the time,
so it had been like going on at decades since
those last reports came out. So I was shrugging them
aside because I knew myself, and I figured, you know,
couldn't be that bad.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Because you were young.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Did you have a framework for like what a toxic
boss was before you took the position.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
No, definitely not, because when I worked on said at
the game show, it was long hours, but I was
just a production assistant and everyone on set was really kind,
even though like sometimes things would get a little intense
just because we're trying to get something shot in a timeframe.
So it was intense, but no one was necessarily like
cruel or abusive. And then my boss when I was
(06:18):
working in licensing, I had already known. She was a
friend of a friend and couldn't have been more non toxic.
I mean, she was supportive and great. I had no
idea what kind of level of toxicity that would entail.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I actually feel sort of angry right now as I'm
even thinking about this, is how much we don't talk
to young people about what toxic leadership looks like, that
this is a thing, and that if it's described to you,
in fact, we frame it as dues paying that kind
of get through it. It's not that big a deal.
I'm kind of imagining anyone in your position who's so young,
(06:57):
who wants an opportunity, but you literally don't have a
framework for what a toxic boss is. I think that's
actually really an important thing to take away that, as
cynical as it may be, that I don't think it's
necessarily a bad thing to actually talk to young people
who are entering the workforce about what this actually is
and what this looks.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Like, especially in film and television and Hollywood in that
industry where it's almost kind of an expectation to endure
certain environments and kind of pay or dues a little bit.
So it's like young workers have no idea what it's like,
but then when they experience it, especially in Hollywood or media,
(07:39):
it's almost like they feel like they're expected to take
it and it's a part of the process. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Do you think that people like Scott sometimes pray on
young people, people who are just coming out of school
at the beginning of their careers because maybe there's a
belief that you don't know better.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yeah, I think people who are more well established and
a bit older, they aren't going to endure that to
begin with. And I think nor do they have to
take certain opportunities because they're already established, They already have
their foot in the door, their career path is already
well on its way. But yeah, I would say that
he's veering towards this younger workforce because he knows that
(08:22):
they're going to be more apt to endure it. Because
when you were in his office and you looked around
at kind of the median age, I was only a
couple of years out of college and I was still
the oldest person, like aside from the office manager at
the time, you know, I was still the oldest assistant
or intern.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, there was a sort of inherent disposability that these
young people carried in that office, and that kind of
dehumanization really bothers me, especially when it's a young person.
So tell me about meeting Scott for the first time.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So I went in for I think it was really
only one round of interviews, and it was with Scott
and then his two associate producers at the time, and
it was pretty cordial for the most part, he was
actually fairly polite and kind and rather charming. I think
the only time I ever saw him like laugh or
(09:15):
smile at me was in that interview. There was no
indication that anything would be like the way it was,
you know, flash forward two months or so, so kind
of alleviated those like fears I had of oh my god,
am I going to be able to handle this? It
was kind of this reminder of like, oh, he's just
a man, and he was kind and cordial enough.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
What was interesting, as you say that, as I'm imagining
and we think about, you know, people like who have
these kinds of bombastic personalities, I could stretch a little
and say a narcissistic personality. We think about love bombing,
and it seems like all the love bombing you got
in this job was like a smile and a minute
of kindness. We often think of like the dynamic that
(09:57):
applies in a new job where somebody's trying to you
over in recruitment and you're like, oh gosh, there's all
these great things that are going to happen, but it's
all relative.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
And you were told so.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Many and you'd read perhaps so many things that were
like ooh, it's a really toxic, difficult guy, and if
he got the little bit of a laugh and a
bit of kindness, that might have been all it took
to say, Okay, I got this right.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
And to give him some credit, he did get me
a Christmas gift.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
But you know, well there you go.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I mean, so I know, right, you know, I do
know what you mean right where he kind of like
was predisposed to this, and he knew like there's only
a certain level of his personality that he could show
in that interview, because of course you go into an
interview and you see kind of like the volatile nature
or what he was like, there's no way you would
(10:47):
take that job. I'm sure some people might, but I
certainly wouldn't have. And so it was kind of to
lure me in a bit to see that softer side
of him, whatever you want to call it. But I
think you're entirely right.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
So after that, what was the first time you saw
the real Scott?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So after that, I was kind of like slowly transitioning
For a week or so, I had quote unquote of
my two weeks at my job, but it didn't really
turn out that way because I would go to the
office really early in the morning Scott's office, train for
a couple hours, then go to my other job, and
then go back to Scott's office at the end of
(11:26):
the day to train for the rest of the evening,
whether that was like eight, nine, ten o'clock whenever. And
so I think that week or two where I was
kind of transitioning and training is when I first got
a taste of what the hours and kind of like
work life was going to look like, which was like
(11:49):
very long hours, very go, go go. But didn't really
see much of Scott during that time, and he wouldn't
really pay much attention to me because I was training,
and so I I saw him raise his voice a
little bit, get kind of volatile, but it wasn't until
I really kind of fully started and was in the
office from start to finish when I started to see
(12:13):
him be volatile and angry towards me and the other assistance.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
What was that like when he would be volatile, what
would that look like.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
He would raise his voice, he would slam doors, and
the types of language she would use would just be
really degrading language. He would make you feel inferior, words
like useless and stupid, and moro on and just anything
to belittle the person he was talking down to. It
(12:45):
could happen to anyone for any reason. It was the
littlest thing that would cause him to be so volatile.
You think of like the Devil Wears product.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
You know, I was in charge of coordinating his schedule,
but also making sure he had a copy of his schedule,
and it would be something as minute or as small
as like a spelling error on the schedule that would
make him so angry to the point where he would
start kind of cursing and yelling and belittling.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
We never believe that that's the kind of thing that's
going to set someone off to such a degree. Right,
First of all, it's never acceptable to use that kind
of language, to use that kind of tone in a workplace. Ever,
you could maybe imagine that perhaps if somebody transferred ten
million dollars of the company's money into and it was gone,
maybe some anger, maybe some loud volume, this is a
(13:44):
typo on a calendar. Were there other examples of those
kinds of instances, That kind of stuff being what would
create the volatility in the workplace really.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Could come down to anything, whether it was the office
being disorderly in a way he didn't like, or not
getting tickets to a show, or not being able to
get a hold of someone on the phone, certain things
that we just had no control of. He wanted to
talk to someone and we couldn't get them on the
(14:16):
phone because they weren't answering, or they would were busy.
It was our fault, it was the assistant's fault. It
was the phone assistant's fault for not being able to
get a hold of someone even after trying, or if
someone just didn't want to schedule a meeting with him,
or someone didn't want to give tickets up because they
had done it a million times for Scott and he
(14:38):
never showed up to the show, and so they were
done giving these tickets, and so he would just become
volatile at the littlest things. You never knew when it
was going to happen. You could do everything right, and
you could do everything in your power to kind of
try and navigate that or foretell what it might be
that might set them off, but at the end of
(15:00):
the day wouldn't really matter, because he would find something
to be upset about.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
My conversation will continue after this break. How would the
staff react. So if somebody was the target of this volatility,
the person who couldn't get the person on the phone,
the person who couldn't get the tickets, how would the
people in those positions, what would you observe happening for them?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
How'd they react?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
You would kind of just have to sit there and
take it and maybe say sorry, but then maybe not
say anything, because saying something might just make it worse.
And sometimes he would just stare at you and wait
for a response, and then as like a bystander, you'd
all just like turn your gaze, which makes you feel
a little bit guilty at the same time as the
(15:50):
person who has to just say nothing in that situation
and let the other person get verbally attacked. But at
the same time, you knew that that was you an
hour ago, and it was going to be you in
a couple hours. Men, when Scott wasn't in the office,
we would all joke and laugh about it, and that
was really our big coping mechanism while we were all
(16:12):
in office together. It was kind of just to make
light of it because what else he was supposed to do.
But while it was happening, yeah, there wasn't much you
could do or say that would fix it or make
him feel better.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I'm curious what was harder being on the receiving end
of it or watching someone be on the receiving end
of it of his volatility, of his rage.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
For me, watching other people be subjected to it, because
you almost become numb to it at a certain point
of him doing that to you, it could just put
up that wall and compartmentalize it. But because there was
so many different assistance coming in and out of rotation,
there was just like new people that became kind of
the victims of his aggressiveness. It was just really hard
(16:56):
watching other people, people that became your friends and not
of this family, endure this and deal with this.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yes, you've said a couple of things here that actually
just shed light on these kinds of toxic workplace situations.
Number one, the fact that there was some support amongst
all of you, that you were all witnessing it, you
were all going through it together and being able to
turn to each other. As hellish as it was, there
was actually a really important value to that. It would
(17:27):
be a lot worse to be stranded on the desert
island alone.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
That's actually supported by the research literature on this, like
having colleagues and those circumstances can actually help people. There's
a couple of other things you brought up too, is
this idea of watching someone else go through it can
actually be equally traumatic. And there was also that anticipation piece,
it's a matter of time before this target comes looking
for me, and it's a reminder of how bad it
(17:52):
actually can be. And then there's the third thing you
brought up, which is you were all actually put in
one of the worst positions that beings could be put into,
which is to be asked to do something, to have
this tremendous, horrible consequence that you would have to face
if you couldn't do it, but to be very out
of control around getting it done. So if he basically
(18:13):
said to you, I want you to alphabetize a thousand
pieces of paper, that's just something you had to do.
You could put your head down and get it done.
But getting someone else on the phone, getting tickets that
can't be done, things that were fully out of your control,
there is a unique cruelty to that. Because you had
no control, you couldn't get those things done.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
You eventually kind of just become numb to it and
kind of resigned to it because it doesn't matter how
well you do or how well you think you're doing.
It's just a matter of time before you see him
lash out or have him wash out at you.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I want to go back to this one specific thing
you brought up.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I know it's a detail, but it's a detail that
I think we could learn a lot from, which is
something as simple as the typo on the schedule. Right,
we're saying he reacted with rage. What did it really
look like when you did that? You make the type
of I don't know, a word is spelled wrong, there's
a period missing at the end of sense. Whatever, you know,
grand error you made. He comes in, he sees it,
(19:13):
he rages. What did that really look like?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Have like a specific memory in mind? Actually? And am
I allowed to swear on this swear away? Okay? Great?
He had his schedule in a very specific way. So
he had like a branded piece of stock paper that
was long and thin, and it had like his logo
at the bottom, and you'd have to print out his
schedule with the hour, who the meeting was with where
(19:39):
it was like in order and then print it out
and you would bring it to him, and if his
schedule updated or there was a change, kind of have
to like constantly be bringing him a new, fresh schedule
so he could like keep track of where he was
going and what he was doing. And I remember this
one instance where it brought him the updated schedule. He
(20:00):
was in his confidence room office and you have to
stand there while he looks it over and then just
shrugs you off or waves you off or tell you
like ask you like what the hell is this? Or
you know what's going on? But I remember him like
at one time crumpling it up, tossing it at me
and being like, what the fuck is this? And I
was like I don't know, and you'd be like get
the fuck out, go go, and you'd have to go
try and like figure out what was wrong. We're on
(20:22):
so little sleep, we're stressed, you're so exhausted, and like
those little details are so hard to manage, and so
I just remember like going through the schedule, nitpicking every detail,
like literally going like letter by letter till I found
that I had spelled someone's name wrong. But I remember
fixing it and then bringing back in fifteen minutes later
(20:43):
then it was good, Then it was fine. What always
stuck with me is he didn't want any of us
to learn, or to grow or to become better, Because
if that was the case, he'd be like, oh, like
thanks for bringing this, like just as a heads up,
like you know, that's not how you spelled this person's name,
you know, and you'd go, that's great to know, got it,
like clocked for next time. But you know, with him,
(21:04):
it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
About that, which is dehumanizing, right. It's feeling like a
cog in a wheel.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
It is.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
This word of use is disposability. There was no interest
in your growth. In order to be interested in a
person's growth, you actually have to recognize them as separate
human beings that could grow rather than I mean, it'sn't
be anything's pen in my hand. I'm not interested in
the pen's growth. The pen has a function for me,
and when it runs out of ink, I'm going to
throw it out.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I really struggle.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
With that dehumanization, especially when a young person's going through that.
On top of this, though, you had said something, we're
sleep deprived, right, how are we going to pick up
a spelling error? And that sounds like it was related
to these really long hours. Talk to us about the
structure of that. What did these long hours look like.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Well, his office was structured in a way where he
had his executive assistant, which was in charge of scheduling
and his kind of day to day operations and then
kind of make making sure that the office operations were
running smoothly. He had his phone's assistant, who, when he
(22:07):
was in office or out of office, managed, you know,
getting him in contact with everyone he needed to that day,
or if he needed a phone call set up, or
you know, he had a list of people he needed
to try and talk to that day. They were in
charge of operating the phones, connecting him, transferring him, conference calling,
so on and so forth. He had the docs assistant,
(22:30):
who was in charge of managing his scripts and making
sure that they were kind of accounted for, like an
archive of what he's read and what he hasn't read
and what he needs to read and make sure that
things are delivered. And then he had the theater assistant,
whose kind of main job was ensuring that he had
(22:50):
a certain amount of tickets every night or even day
to see shows, and even if he didn't go to
those shows, like he just liked to have tickets to
shows he might go to. And then he had the
interns that were making runs and things like that, and
so as his executive assistant, you have the scheduling aspect,
but then kind of overseeing to some degree kind of
(23:13):
the phone's assistant, docs and theaters, making sure like things
are in order, and then also trying to train people
that came in and out of those roles, which was
pretty frequent, and so some people you know, wouldn't be
in that position for more than two weeks. And so
I would be in really early just because he was
in really early. I would go in around like five thirty,
(23:34):
maybe like six to begin with, and then I would
stay through until you know, he left for the day,
and that could be eight o'clock, that could be ten o'clock.
I had that mindset of like, work hard, do well
at this job, good things will come. So you know,
I would start to go in earlier to make sure
that everything was set up for the day. But he
eventually started going in earlier too, And I don't know
(23:57):
if that's because he like saw me going in earlier
and you had to prove that he could be in
there earlier. Whatever, the logic. Maybe it got to the
point where I was going in like as early as
I possibly could. That whole day was upwards of like
twelve to fifteen hours. And then I lived in Brooklyn
at the time, and the office was in Times Square,
(24:17):
So by the time I got home, got showered, got
into bed, I mean, I was running on like four
hours of sleep at night. Sometimes that was kind of
day to day, and then even on weekends he would
have to have kind of a person on call. You
still had to make sure that his car was where
it needed to be when he needed it there, and
made sure his schedule was up to day. So you know,
(24:39):
I was really working like extreme hours every day, seven
days a week.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
These are extraordinary hours.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I mean, it sounds like there's a point at which
you started playing the time game. You were coming at
five thirty five, fifteen five. That does sound like a
game for him. It's a very cat and mouse. When
we hear a story like this, one of the things
people will say is like, no, no, no, they're just
so focused on their craft and their geniuses.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I beg to differ.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
If you're trying to beat your assistant into work, you're
very aware of your assistant, and so that doesn't feel
like the genius who's so absorbed in his work. That
feels like someone who is messing with you. That feels intentional.
So I have a couple of thoughts here. Number one,
that kind of a schedule and you are talking about
(25:29):
fifteen sixteen hour days and three four hours of sleep. Nobody,
even a young person, can make it on that little sleep.
So a spelling error, that's actually amazing that if those
are the only kinds of errors being made. Not to
mention the toll on your health that it was literally taking.
But I'm talking about executive assistant, phone's assistant, doc's assistant,
(25:50):
theater assistant, plus interns making runs. I imagine this dude
had a house or an apartment or something like that,
so there's probably a whole team of people who ran
the home, and people listening to this would say, if
I had this many people running my life, like, what
was this guy angry about every single thing? It's almost
like his feet didn't touch the floor. And this is
why I think it is important to use personality as
(26:12):
a framework here, because any normal human being who is
literally being insulated from everything in the world all the
kinds of indignities we have to endure, from not getting
a parking a lot at the grocery store, to you know,
having to press one press four plus six just to
get a doctor's appointment. All of that was taken care
of for him. This speaks to personality. The stuff that
(26:34):
actually ends up taking years off our life isn't the
big stressors. It's this day to day stuff. And he
didn't have any of that. So sure the listeners are thinking, dude,
what are you so mad about?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
No, it's baffling. I mean seriously, they just, like you said,
like those day to day stressors that I feel like
I have to deal with on a day to day
basis compared to you know what he really, like, what
is so stressful about? And I know it's stressful like
that job and producing, but it's almost like self inflicted
(27:05):
because you have all this lavishness and wealth and power,
but all he does with it is abuse it and
is angry all the time. Yeah, Like I don't know.
I like, if I had the wealth he did, no
one would ever hear from me. I would be just
like retired for life, like living just like the happiest life.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Now, I mean or for that kind of money, you
should be able to for the best shrink in the
world too, and clearly that wasn't happening either. So here's
the other thing is that you brought up this issue
of turnover. I actually would love to get a sense
of how long did people last in these positions.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
I was only there for about four months, and that
was considered really long. I mean, wow, some people would
be there for two weeks, and people would be there
for a month. I think the executive assistant before me
was there for like a month. I think the person
that was there after me was there for like a week,
(28:08):
and so it really was like a revolving door. I
saw a good amount of phones assistance kind of cycle through,
and that was kind of like the hot seat really
because it was like the most room for error trying
to connect, and like the phone systems were like so archaic,
Like honestly, you also think with all that money, you
would like just like update your systems or something. I mean,
(28:29):
he was like still using a BlackBerry, which is insane.
There was usually a period during the day where he
was like, okay, time for my calls, and it would
go through like a list of people that needed to
be called. It was just really hectic. He would just
like buzz in from the other room and be like
I need this person, transfer this person or connect to
this person. And it was just like so chaotic, and
so there was a lot of room for error with
(28:50):
the phone's assistant. Can only imagine what would happen if
like a call was dropped or you know, someone can't
be transferred in, or there's just kind of like a
mess with the phones. And so I definitely saw like
a good amount of people get cycled through there doc's assistant.
I saw a couple of people get cycled through theater.
I saw like at least ones get transferred through.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Did anyone take notice of this rapid turnover because a
place where people are leaving jobs after one, two, three weeks,
were there no other eyes on this place where people
are saying, Wow, people don't last a long time here.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
I think it's just one of those things that was
kind of well known, but it was kind of just
shrugged aside, like just because of the nature of the
industry and the nature of Scott Rudin himself. I mean,
you should have seen the like the stack of what
is it like like w four is whatever you set
up for tax season. Like the just stack of them
(29:46):
was so huge, and I was like, goodness, my gosh,
you only have like seven people working in here, like
over the course of a year, like that stack should
be like one fiftieth of the size that it was.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
But that's a good that's actually a really interesting measurement
of it. But I do think this idea of like, oh,
this is what people do. They get in the industry
and it's just rough and they can't hack it. I Mean,
my concern is always that that's the pathologizing of the
person who leaves the job, rather than the person who's
treating him that way. So it sounds that over the
course of a year there might have been in all
(30:20):
these positions said and told me one hundred people might
have gone through this these potentially Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
I don't have like an exact number, but it was high. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Wow, we will be right back with this conversation. Okay,
So you brought up this phone's assistant thing because he
was talking to all these important people. When he'd be
on the phone, he's screaming at all of you obscenities,
You're all these terrible things.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
How would he treat the people he was on the
phone with.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I think if it was like a notable name, like
a reputable actor or rector, or you know, someone with notoriety,
like they were treated a lot better. I think if
it was someone that like kind of worked for him
to a degree, like, that's when you would kind of
get in that murky water of potentially being you know,
(31:17):
treated poorly or kind of aggressively.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
This, though, takes me back to the point I was
making before about how intentional it was, Just like with
you coming in the morning, right, if he was screaming
at the people on the phone the same way he
was screaming at all of you, still unacceptable, but we
might have been able to write this off to there's
something off about this very disregulated person who just goes
(31:42):
through the world screaming everyone doesn't matter who. And again,
it doesn't make it right. It still makes it abusive.
But what I feel, even out of the workplace, even
in a close relationship, knowing that they're choosing to do
that because that's a choice, Because he's choosing to be
nice to the person on the phone, which means he's
choosing to abuse you.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
That's a choice, right, Yeah, No, it's what it felt like. Yeah,
I mean he is a volatile man. I think it's
kind of a good mix of both of their potentially
really being something askew and kind of just that like
need and abuse of power. And I think he was
so corrupted by the wealth and the power that he
(32:22):
had amassed, because you know, I don't know what he
was like when he was twenty, and so I don't
know if this is a character issue that stems from whatever,
or if this is something that grew and festered as
his power and his wealth grew.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I know what my hypothesis is knowing how personality works,
and I think that it does become this interaction between
whatever the baseline personality is and then getting power. Because
I can tell you this right now, if you got power,
if I got power, we would never treat people that
way ever, right And I can say that with confidence.
(32:57):
We may not want the power, we may walk away
from the power, and we may not feel this desperate
need to keep the power. But I'm convinced that your personality,
being yours, mind being mine, other kind people we know
being that wouldn't go there.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Just wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah, I think power corrupts corruptible people.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yes, yes, very well said. That's really really well said.
So as you go through this, your four months are unfolding,
which must have felt like the longest four months of
your life. And if you really sort of played it
out in dog years, given how little sleep you got,
that four months was actually more like probably two years
in the job.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
What was the breaking point for you?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
That's a great question. Just got to a point where
I kind of just stopped caring. I stopped caring about
the way he treated me. I stopped caring to try
to hard at my job, and so things got like sloppier,
which led to him having more outlets or reasons to
(33:56):
kind of lash out at me. Got to the point
where he was kind of fed up with me. Me
his verbal assaults just really had no effect on me
at that point because I was like just so beaten down,
and I would, you know, fuck something up and he
would be like, get the fuck out of the office,
go work somewhere else, and so you know, I would
be like all right, like happily, would take my laptop
and go sit at a Starbucks or wherever the hell
(34:19):
until another assistant would call me and be like, we
need you back in here because something's happening, and I
would go back in you wouldn't even notice it. So
it got to the point where I think we were
both collectively just like done with each other. Where it
felt like, you know, said firing wasn't kind of like
a fake firing, it was like a okay.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
One day you just decided I'm not coming back anymore
and you didn't go back.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah, out of you know, kind of just respect for
the other assistants. I at least gave two weeks there
so like they could try and like hire someone and
train someone. And I remember like I had like given
my two weeks, and like I think I'll always remember this.
They finally got someone hired, like towards the end my
two weeks, but they weren't going to start yet. I
remember being like all right, like I'm out, like goodbye,
(35:06):
and Scott was like, what do you mean, like new
persons have started, and I was like nobody. I gave
my two weeks, you know, like I was done, And
I just remember some saying like okay, like thanks for everything,
like weirdly cordial in a way, like he wasn't like
angry or anything. And I found that really bizarre. And
so the last time I spoke to him was him
(35:27):
just being like, Okay, thanks for everything, and I was like,
didn't seem like there was you thought there was much
to thank me for. But I'll take it right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I mean, you served your purpose. And I imagine giving
two weeks might have been unusual in that job. People
were so wrecked that they were saying I'm out. So
that you were willing to do that and endure that,
but I guess if you knew it was fineite. That said,
though a lot of people would have said, I'm out.
I can't endure this. How has this experience affected you
as you've moved on to other jobs, other relationships, just
(35:59):
in your life, how has it affected you?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
It has totally changed my outlook on life for the better.
I no longer live in New York. I kind of
just up and move to Colorado because I was jobless
and kind of adrift, so moved out here. It was
one of the best things I ever did. I mean,
it was hard, but like compared to what I had
(36:23):
just been through. I was kind of just waiting tables
at the time, building this new life and this new
foundation for myself full life. My passion and my dream
was to work in the film industry, and that experience
definitely kind of tainted that for me. And I loved movies.
I loved the idea of movies. I loved going to
(36:45):
the theater. It was my happy place and it still
is my happy place. And you know, seeing his name
pop up on screen definitely caused a visceral reaction and
going back to like having this kind of new outlook
on life, not only the experience I went through to
try and achieve this stream, but then also watching Scott
(37:08):
behave in the way that he did. He had all
this power, and he had all this money, and he
had everything in the world really that so many people
would dream and aspire to, but he was still so
angry and so miserable, and I was like, that is
not the life I'm trying to lead. Like it doesn't
matter what quote unquote dreams I achieve. It's just a
(37:32):
matter of kind of the life I want to make
for myself. And I can choose to be happy, and
I can choose to be content, and I can choose
where to put my energy. I put my energy into
my friends and my partner and my family and my
pet and into nature and to exercising and all these
(37:53):
things that give me so much fulfillment in life, because
for so long it was is my career was going
to be my fulfillment and my dream and my aspiration,
and that was going to bring me joy and bring
me happiness. But that experience crushed me. And I don't
think it was necessarily the chasing of the dream as
(38:14):
much as it was Scott, but then also just looking
at what he had achieved, which is what I was
aspiring to, but to see how he acted towards people
and towards himself, and it wasn't how I wanted to live,
It wasn't how I wanted to treat other people. And
so I just prioritize the things that bring me joy
(38:40):
in life, and that is kind of my dream, really,
is to keep nurturing those things in my life.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
I mean, you just said a mouthful about healing. You
really really did, because I think that if that was
the reboot you took from this, and I'd imagine that
people who worked in these assistant positions over the years
had a whole variety of different fallout could quite easily
see how some people could have left that job and
had post traumatic symptoms, you know, anxiety and vigilance and
(39:11):
nightmares and feeling unsettled and feeling scared a lot, deeply,
deeply anxious, that kind of thing. I think that that
wouldn't have been uncommon either. But to have viewed that
as what I just saw, I want my life to
be the opposite. That's a big deal for someone, especially
a young person, to be able to take away from that.
What do you have to say to people who think
(39:35):
that enduring this kind of antagonistic, combative, and downright cruel
behavior it's part of paying your dues in the industry,
It's not.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
And you don't have to endure that. We've been conditioned
and kind of told that we must like it's a
part of the process. It's almost even been glamorized in
Hollywood itself. But we are worth more than that, and
we don't deserve to be treated like that, and we
don't have to endure that. It's not a part of
(40:10):
the process. The only way we're going to change it,
or at least a big part of the way we
can change it, is to reject it and to demand
better and to demand more than just abuse and belittlement.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I do know that there is a movement afoot amongst
assistants in the industry who are actually trying to organize,
and I think that that's actually brilliant. Once Scott was outed,
he issued this public apology. He said, much has been
written about my history of troubling interactions with colleagues, and
I am profoundly sorry for the pain my behavior cause
(40:56):
to individuals directly and indirectly.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
What did you feel reading that?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I felt his publicist or lawyer did a great job.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Writing as amen, Amen, And I think that as long
as there's people with these personalities out there, there will
always be publicists and lawyers who will get a job.
Thank you so much for your time, very very grateful.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Pleasure.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Here are my takeaways from this conversation. The cult of
unaccountable genius is doing lots of harm to people who
come into certain industries, especially politics, tech, media, and other
creative spaces, and particularly.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
To young people.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
It seems that since time immemorial, we have given a
free pass to the geniuses in our midst to behave
as badly as they want, but to frame it as
a necessary and even glamorized hazing ritual and that somehow
the genius is entitled to their holatile tantrums. They are not,
(42:03):
and no matter how successful someone is, to be in
the wake of dismissive, dehumanizing, and rageful behavior is not
healthy for anyone. In our next takeaway, toxic workplaces treat
people as disposable, and it's time we break out of
the myth that if I just work hard and tolerate
(42:25):
this for long enough, it will be a jumping off
place for my dreams. You're more likely to experience the
fallout of severe psychological stress than you are to be
launched into your own successful path. When you work for
a toxic boss, there is only room for their success,
and many people have wasted years waiting for their turn.
(42:50):
That's not going to happen, and you may actually harm
your mental and physical health as you wait for this
illusion to turn real. For our next takeaway, this story
reminds us that toxic workplaces aren't just about the abuse
we endure, but also about watching it happen to other people,
(43:11):
and that can sometimes be even more taxing. As individuals,
we may be able to compartmentalize what is happening to us,
but when it is happening to someone else, it can
be devastating to witness it, especially if we feel powerless
to help, and can plant a terrible seat of anxiety
(43:33):
as we wait and wonder when we will be the
next target. In this next takeaway, when we feel tempted
to give toxic bosses a free pass or just write
it off to the pressure they are under or their
fiery creative spirit, remember that in most cases, their behavior.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Is a choice.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
In this case, Rudent's raging at assistance was not mirrored
in his phone calls with movie stars and other high
status folks. A tyrannical sort of superpower of anyone with
a narcissistic personality is that they are able to take
their mask on and off, and that is intentional. This
(44:19):
isn't the uncontrollable spirit of a creative genius. This is
a choice that reflects the toxic person's belief that some
people matter and most people don't. And in our last takeaway,
the story of this one assistant shows us how complicated
(44:40):
these outcomes can be, even in a short time. Working
under such abusive circumstances, he acknowledges being changed by it
and In his case, the change wasn't all bad. It
ended up being an unexpected wake up call on how
to live life, which in essence was to live life
(45:03):
in the opposite manner of the boss he had witnessed.
But it also did mean giving up on a dream
of a career in the film industry. I'm saddened to
think about how many people have left industries because of
these experiences. But maybe when we leave these jobs and
(45:24):
settings to heal, we find a healthier path for ourselves.
A narcissistic boss is a masterclass on how not to
live and work.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.