Inside San Quentin Continues

Our hosts continue their unrestricted tour as the warden guides them with a history lesson of the facility. They get an up-close look at  death row and detail their reactions.

Then, in a shocking encounter, Gavin connects with an incarcerated man who was on his childhood Little League team.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Man, what's handed man? You got Marshaw Bismall Lynch, Doug Hendrickson.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
And Gavin Knewsome and you're listening to politics you know
to be you known to be.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
So.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
Doug, Doug Marshawn, what was that? I mean, it's been
about a week or so. What was the experience like
going into San Quent, Doug. I think it was the
first time you've been inside San Quentin, right.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
It was eye opening, and it was it was enlightening
because I truthfully, when I went there, I expected to,
you know, a much much different perspective than I thought.
I mean when I got there, seeing these these inmates
and prisoners who literally the programs that San Quentin had
and their mindset that you know, yeah, incarcerated if or

(00:53):
if they don't get out or they get out, to
have the programs in place to have these guys' life
change in terms of uh, their mindset was so enlightening.
I did not expect to meet the sixty seventy eighty
prisoners that they did, that had the mindset they'd have,
and it blew me away.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
I bet.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
I mean one of the things I imagine if you've
never been there, and I remember the first time I
went to San Juan.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
What really surprised me is.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
That you can walk into the yard and there are
hundreds and hundreds of prisoners, and folks can walk right.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Up to you.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
You can talk. I mean, we were talking to lifers.
We were talking to folks that may never see the
light of day, and they're all out there in the yard.
People seem to be getting along. They're willing. I mean
they're willing. The guards are willing to allow you to
walk around. I mean, was that something you had anticipated.
You thought it would be a little bit more organized.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
I thought you'd see, honestly, I thought you'd see the
Hispanics in one side the blacks. I thought you'd see
the segregation in terms of the prisoners like you see
in the movies. But to see these guys walk up,
and how appreciative they were that we were there, how
appreciative they were without the prisons, and Quentin with the warden,
had the programs that they have, uh and all the

(02:08):
things that they're allowed to do, to walk freely and
to take part in you know, math programs in the
podcast room that they have, and and the different things
they're doing. Was was completely eye opening to me in
a great way.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Marshawn, you ever met a warden like that?

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Nah?

Speaker 2 (02:24):
That wasn't the kind of warden you expect.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
But but but the thing, the biggest thing that stuck out,
uh to me about him was you know, the uh,
the gentleman that we was talking to that was from
Oakland and he's like, yeah, man, I noticed, like man,
you know we've been doing time together, like you feemy,

(02:47):
I remember he used to come run up in my
cel and hell of shit, you know, we bumping it
out and is the third and then to see like
you know, them two just sitting down being able to
you know, I mean reminisce on what it was like,
you know what I mean back in the days can entering.
You know how far they have came on, you know,
for both of them, and you know they relationship and

(03:09):
being able to just see them have a conversation it
was more and so like you know, I mean, that
was more so like you running into one of your
old school pintners that you used to fight all the
time when y'all was younger, And you know what I mean, like, boy,
you remember I used to chase your ass? Now like
hell yeah, you Remember I was hiding all that dope
from you, like you know, I had it, but you
couldn't find my ship. Boy, I had my sending a

(03:29):
good but it was just like for me to see
that the warden had a mindset like, damn, I've really
been doing time with you, and as much time as
you been doing, I've been doing it as well. So
you know, when I look at that situation and you

(03:50):
know what I mean, you know, you look at it
from an institutionalize situation, it's like these wardens, these CEOs,
you know what I mean, they going into prison and
they doing this time too. Now under the circumstances in
the situation like yeah, you're going in here to get
a check, to be able to you know what I mean,

(04:10):
take care of your family and shit. But the way
that he was just making it, you know what I mean,
in a situation where like you know, we were being
integrated here, like you know what I mean, I go
and talk to my guys like, hey, you know, what
can we do you know I mean, in order to
help you know what I mean, make this a a
you know what I mean, as comfortable as it is.
And I'm not sure if y'all was around while we

(04:32):
were having the conversation, but he was saying he gave
a you know, I mean a scenario like you know,
you get a twenty year old and I mean have
a run in with the law, and then you know,
from there, get arrested, go to the county and then
you know, I mean from that officer that he come

(04:53):
into contact with is not a good interaction. Then the
DA not a good interaction. Then you go in the
court and now you're talking to the motherfucking judge, and
the judge talking down that you're not a good situation.
And then you know, I mean, you do your counting
time you interacting with the guards in they're not a
good situation. And then you know, I mean they come

(05:13):
and they drop you off into the pen. And the
motherfucker was like, I have to, you know, tell my
guards and shit like hey, you know what I mean
when when these individuals step off the fucking the bus,
like these are still humans considering you know, they they
fucked up and they did what they did. But at

(05:34):
the end of the time, end of the day, you're
about to be here with this individual for a long time,
so you go ahead and establish a relationship with this individual.
So while you're doing it, that's that's that takes less
off your plate to the point where you ain't here,
you ain't got to look over your back. I know
you're hear so many times about you know, in prison,
the guards getting bum rushed by inmates, this, that and

(05:55):
the third. But you know, I mean his mindset was to,
I mean, well, we gonna be here. It ain't knowing
we could do about it, you know, I mean regardless
to whatever you've done to get in here. But basically, motherfucker,
we finna be roommates, we finna be living here, so
we might as well find a common ground to where
we could get an understanding to Yeah, I mean for
you that I can feel safe and for you, for

(06:17):
you can feel safe. And I'm like, you know what, man,
when you think about that process, like yeah, why would
I get off this bus going into the pen thinking
like oh it's cool, Like nah, hell no, I'm pissed
off a mad as fuck along my journey is being
fucked up. This then the third and I mean, you know,
not to you, I mean look at it from a

(06:40):
position to where you know, whether you are incarcerated, like
you've done what you've done, and now it come time
to you know, serve your time and do what you
gotta do, like you know what I mean, you got
to make the most of it. And then when I
talk to individual my family that is in there, and
I asked these individuals like, hey man, how you doing?

(07:00):
And when I talk to him and they coming from
a standpoint of like I'm in a good space, and
it fucks me up in my head. I'm like, damn, bro,
you not coming outside, You're not like you're not finna
come home. But for you to be you know, I
mean to have a mindset like you know, one day
at a time. And I'm in a good space, you know,
I mean I got a program, a regiment. I mean,

(07:22):
I stick to that and you know I got served
my time. It's like fuck. But then I can see
where that situation would come from after having a conversation
with a warden that maybe, you know, I mean, operate
the way that he do.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
And what's so special about this war love what I mean,
I think that distinction that you just made and I
loved hearing it as you did from the wardens and
we're both we're both doing time together. I mean this
idea that that they share that experience and to have
the warden top down, to have a lot.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Of guards, not all of them.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
I mean, we're doing a lot of reforms and not
everybody's on board, but a lot of of the guards
are on board because they recognize that they want to
create a safer environment. They want an environment where people
are more respected and they don't have to your point,
if they turn their back, they're not worried about what's
going on behind their back every single minute of every
single day.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
But I think what's.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Special about this warden is he has his own lived
experience with his own family and the fact that he
had family members doing time and grew up in that
environment and with a deeper perspective of understanding. So we're
we're lucky as hell to have this guy at San
quent leading the way in this transformation of one of

(08:37):
the most iconic prisons in the world, what we call
the California model. And so what you guys saw in
the yard is what we want to see a lot
more of as we increase scale ten x the programming there,
we physically redesign that facility, just as we did with
Death Row.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
And I'm curious for you guys.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
I mean, I don't know if you've been on death
row before we call the East Block at San Quentin,
what was that experience like to physically walk in to
death row.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
Well, before I get to that, Gvin, I mean just
looking at the non lifers and looking at the cells
that those guys had that might get out in ten, fifteen, five, ten, fifteen,
twenty years whatever. If to understand that when you put
your hands to the side, you can touch the walls,
when you put your hands above you can touch the ceiling,

(09:31):
and if you're six foot two, six foot whatever it
may be, and you have a cellmate, you can't turn
around without going back to back to.

Speaker 5 (09:38):
Get around the cell.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
To be able to live in those conditions and think
you might get out in five ten years without the
programs that San Quentin has, you have no hope. And
I can see that if these guys get out in
other prisons that don't have the programs and the hope
that they're giving them, how do you get out and
expect to join the real world and function and be
a memor society, as a as a father, as a.

Speaker 5 (10:03):
Husband, as whatever it may be. Go forward? It's mind blown.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
So I mean a kudos to San Quentin because these
inmates that have a chance to get out, even the
ones that don't, their mindset is the right way, which
is pretty cool to see.

Speaker 5 (10:17):
Uh. To walk to death Row was eerie.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
It was.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
My hair raising on my arms. It was really really
weird to see that part of it. To walk through,
and I can see both sides. I can see as
a as a parent, if your son or daughter gets
killed and they're there, you can see, Hey, you know what,
I wanted to stay there or I wanted to get killed.

Speaker 5 (10:42):
I don't know what I would do if this was
my son or dough.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
I can't tell you and equivocally, but to walk through there,
it was eerie, and it was weird, and it was
it was you know, it was tough to see, no
question about it.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, Marshaun, what was it like for you? I mean
you you walked in. I don't know how long you
stuck a I mean, what was that like for me?

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Man? That ain't you know? I mean, that ain't something
that you feel me. I don't that Main's something I
would say, like I glorify, So you know what I mean?
You know what I mean, I think what I maybe
stepped in maybe three four five steps and then you know,
I got the fuck up out of there. But just
the mentality of just you know, I mean, understanding that

(11:24):
you got motherfuckers locked in that box in that cave.
That's that's some you know what I mean, that's some
some some deep shit. Now I understand you feel me,
you do that, that situation, you do, the crime, you
do the time type shit. So for me, man, just
like even just thinking about it, it's like I don't

(11:44):
even want to go and put myself in a position
where I even go get a visual or some shit
like that, because I mean, at the end of the day,
my model is you feel me though I'm trying to last,
not come in last, and just going even just for me,
just even going in there and getting, ah, you mean
a glimpse of it, Like I mean, I don't want
that for real, for real.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
So I mean I imagine it was like that too
when we were at the gas chamber and then we
went separated that the death chamber where they do the injections.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Hell yeah, like man, that's some ship, like you know
what I mean, Like I don't even want to see
like even to the point where you know, we'll talk
about it. You know, when my fucker came out, like
you know that's sound brutal shit, like you know, you
put the motherfucker in there to to you know what
I mean, that that walk over there, you know, knowing
that this's gonna be your last walk, like you know
what I mean, just the mindset of how that ship go,

(12:38):
but understanding like like damn, there's some there's some real
fuck up ship and I know I was saying to
you or like there's some barbers ship, like who the
fuck think is ship like this? In order to just
you know what I mean, take motherfuckers lives. It's it's
just like another Tuesday.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
Another Tuesday could be Monday through Friday. I mean, dozens
of people right now are eligible to be executed. They've
exhausted all their appeals. And I think for me, you know,
I really wanted you guys to see that, particularly Doug.
I think you came back with me and were the
injection chair that place. Since the last time we did
an execution was two thousand and six. They literally have

(13:19):
not changed anything in that room. They just moved some
of the chairs, but every single thing is the same,
including the phone on the wall with a red light
above it with the governor says the governor doesn't say
which governor says the governor waiting for that phone call

(13:39):
to do a reprieve, to stop the execution or allow
the green light for the execution to go. I've been
in there a couple of times, and you talk about
Doug hair on your arms. I mean, that's just that
sits with you in a different way that you have
the ability. It's like some gladiator, you know, putting up
the thumb up or down life and death. And so
I appreciate mar Shaun about that. This notion that we

(14:02):
can kill broken people, that we can do it in
a premeditated way, that somehow that we're saying it's wrong
to kill people, but in the name of that we
execute someone. That's just hard for me to square. And
as governor, that responsibility falls, you know, straight on my.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Damn lap well.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
And the sad thing, Gavin, look, I mean, you know,
you and I weren't raised the same way that Marshaun was,
a lot of people were. But to see some of
these guys in there and to make a wrong turn
in life, you know and end up. I mean, it's
not fair. It's really scary in a lot of ways.
And his eye opening. I think I was talking to
twenty four year old prisoner there who talked about when

(14:43):
he was I think his mom was a prostitute, his
dad didn't wasn't there seven eight nine years old, had
no food, didn't know what to do. I think he
had his first you know, stole some bread as a kid,
and he kind of evolved from there.

Speaker 5 (14:58):
But this kid did no chance in life.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
He had no chance and he got in and luckily
he's got a chance to get out in ten fifteen years.
But you know, without the programme san Quentin has, without
the hope he's going to have going forward. I mean,
this kid had no chance in life, and it's really sad.
But most people in the world don't look at this
and say, oh, well, he shouldn't have been in there. Okay,

(15:21):
we'll put yourself in issues.

Speaker 5 (15:22):
What are you gonna do?

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Really?

Speaker 5 (15:24):
I mean, I mean that's the hard part.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
All powerful components of what we ultimately want to bring
to light in this podcast.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
Well, yeah, and I applaud you for doing what you've
do done with san Quentin and all the prisoners across
California because it's making a difference.

Speaker 5 (15:38):
And to your point, you know, when they do get out, they're.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
Going to be our neighbors, our community members and all that,
and so what you've done is great. So I appreciate
what you've done and taken us in there.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
How about one of those community members is my old
teammate in Twin Cities Little League in Larksburg, California, and
that literally my age. You met him, Doug Marshaun. You
guys all met him. Angelo Mecki, who was our third baseman, shortstop,
second baseman, had everything going for him in life and

(16:12):
just started hanging out with the wrong people. I mean,
you talk about just this, how any for the grace
of God go any of us. One decision hanging out
with the wrong people. A couple of bad decisions after that,
and here he is, third striker, third damn striker. But
it was a hell of a thing to walk into
that yard and meet a former Little League teammate who says, hey, Gavin,

(16:36):
how's your sister doing? You like, what the hell are
you talking about? And find a guy who played for
Roundtable Pizza that was the name of the team, and
my eleventh, twelfth year old Little League team. So it's
it's life and I think people really enjoy this podcast. Bordon,

(17:04):
where I've been in here, I've had the privilege of
being Air of San Quentin News on a number of occasions,
and to see the evolution over the course last decade
here in the multimedia and all the incredible work that
they continued to do. Tell us a little bit about
this space, maybe a little bit of history, and tell
us a little bit about your journey. You're in the
newly appointed tag. You're it Warden of San Quentin, the

(17:25):
iconic San Quentin built eighteen fifty two, the oldest, oldest
state prison in the state of California.

Speaker 6 (17:33):
I would say it's the luckiest. I'm the luckiest person
alive right now. As far as my job, I'm leading
the California model here at San Quentin State Prison. We're
in our media room, which produces a podcast, it has
a filming studio, it has a newspaper. The opportunity that
the governor has given me is pretty cool. My journey
is a little different. My father was incarcerated and out

(17:56):
of jail, so I grew up kind of having to
make some tough choices.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, so that me and you we got kind of like,
you know what I mean, because that's that's how my
poths was. You feel me.

Speaker 6 (18:05):
So I had to make a decision, man, you know,
do I follow that trend or do I.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Do I change?

Speaker 5 (18:11):
Well, how long was your dead in for?

Speaker 6 (18:13):
So I didn't see him a lot after he got incarstraighted.
He now passed, but he was a D number, which
tells you was probably about thirty years ago. He did
some time in Chino, and then he was in and
out of jail. So he really wasn't relevant in my life.
So I wanted to distance myself from him. So I
went into law enforcement because everybody assumed I was going
to go that path, and I started over twenty two

(18:34):
years ago. I started over twenty two years ago when
the three strikes law was in effect. No one told
us how to do it. We just went in there
and they just told us how it was. So to
get the opportunity to actually give back to the community
and get people ready to participate in our communities and
give back, it's an amazing.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
That's hell of that's that's strange that you even you
feel me, don't look at it like that, because just
when you hear like the war and type shit, that's
like hell no, like almost like the principal at school
and shit like that. So it's and then to hear
them saying like, you know, giving back to the community
like for whatever, that shit just not for me. It's

(19:12):
not translating in my head to even think about it
in that way. So when you say that, because you
just threw out some shit, that's big. When you say
we're in the media room, like y'all got a podcast,
y'all got it? Uh, first of all these goddamn cameras
that I've been seeing these guys walk around with that
you feel what I'm saying, that's some state of the

(19:33):
ort like equipment type shit. So it sounds like you know,
I mean, we was talking a little like the system
and the mold that has been kind of for the
last I don't know how many goddamn years. But you
know when you came up and like, yeah, I'm the
ward and we're like, damn you look shit, you don't

(19:53):
look a day Yeah, you know what I mean? Over
twenty one like and you say, you know what, you're
trying to change things, trying to break the molde now,
not just with your appearance, but your mindset and what
you bringing into the institution here. Like, you know, it's
been hard just you feel me just even coming in here,
because it's like, why the fuck would you be going

(20:14):
into a prison. But then it's like, you know what
I mean, the history of my you know, coming up
here to visit my pops when I was hell younger, Dan,
you fear me all of my people that just been
through this system, and you know what I mean, we
have a whole different outlook on what prison is. And
I mean when I looked up their little research and

(20:38):
it's like it's a rehabilitation spot. But it's like whenever
somebody come home after doing their time, you feel me
though they seem to be in a worse off place
than they was when they went in, and they went
in probably on some you know, I'm young, I'm dumb,
I don't know. This is just how what I got

(21:00):
to do in order to feed my family or I
got to protect myself and or whatever. Yeah, I mean,
they come down to it. But then when they get
out there know way fucked up more mindset. Yeah, I
mean the world has passed them. And I understand is
the the you know what I mean, the punishment was

(21:24):
that the fucking now I told me to op. We
just was talking to my boy about consequences. Yeah, you got.

Speaker 6 (21:37):
That's what we're trying to change, exactly what you're saying.
The opposition would say this is a public safety, But
it's absolutely public safety because we're making citizens here, right,
people that we put back in our community and have
trades degrees to get back to our community. So it
is public safety and that's what some people are struggling
to realize.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
And I think one of the things just a good
reminder everybody folks in our system end up home and
you want them broken, more pissed off, or do you
want them to be more resourceful, more fully and you
want them to be your neighbors. You gotta think in
those terms.

Speaker 6 (22:11):
Who was I talking recently? I was talking to an
old Mexican mafia guy and he says, Uh, this guy
was running the yard and he had he had a date.
He goes, hey, man, I got a date. Can I
stop politicking? And that leadership in the Mexican mafia basically
allowed that and said, yeah, you've always done your work
for us. Don't mess with them now with the gangser's power,
So now you're not going to always get that type

(22:32):
of thread line or Okay, so yeah, there's there's prison
politics that we could write a book.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
So you know what that sounded like to me because
I asked this mufflucker, Hey, why you're gonna run for president?
And then it was an order just like what you
just demonstrated right now, it's an order or how you
feel me, how they rock? And I'm like, oh shit,
so when you politicking, you really dealing with some real politics.

(22:59):
And I'm like, shit, go run for president, like for
we could stop the podcast.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Of all the things that I've done as governor, the
one thing I wasn't prepared for was this space. I mean,
when you're campaigning out there, no one asked me what
my relationship or with prison reform was. They talked about
criminal justice reform more broadly. We did not didn't understand
the nature of debriefing. That never came up. There was
no white paper that I had.

Speaker 5 (23:33):
I don't know what a.

Speaker 3 (23:34):
Gang debrief was. I didn't fully appreciate the parole process
and didn't understand all of these nuances. But every single
week I have life or death decisions. Literally, no bullshit.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
When you're looking at that, what is it in your mind? Like, Okay,
if I see these type of.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
It's exactly what we just heard right there. As you want,
you can kind of talk away. I want to know
the journey. I want to know that it's sincere, it's
not bullshit. I want to know that you didn't just
go into some program just to quote unquote get a check,
so you just stack in those checks to come to me.
I want to know that you feel remorse, that you

(24:09):
feel for the victims, that you have a relationship to
the victims, because at the end of the day, we
I think what happens when we have these conversations. People
see it as it's it's right or wrong, black or white.
You spend time with the folks that are incarcerated, it
means somehow you're taking away from the families and the
victims and I and that's important to me that that

(24:30):
has to be both. And you've got to come out
feeling deeply responsible, accountable, remorseful, and you've got to come
back as stronger person. And if you if you have that,
if you have empathy, you have care. I have some
goddamn compassion and you could demonstrate that, then that's determinative
in terms of.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
The people that we let go.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Otherwise, if I feel just a it's instinctual sometimes and
it's just immediately rejection.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
When you just look at the name, like Marshaan Lanche.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
You know what, That's what every governor used to do.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
When I go fill out job applications, they.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
The name alone.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
By the way, you see that, that's a real thing.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
But let me let me tell you, let me tell
you negotiate.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
It's only been since Governor Brown had gotten the previous
governors Democrats, not just Republicans, they rejected every single Parole
Board recommendation.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
They didn't even look at it.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
And then they would look at the name, or worse,
they'd look at a picture and they go they look
and see if someone's got tatted up, Like no, he's gone,
I'm no bullshit. And and then race was a determinative
damn factor for on getting in here and getting out
of here. So I don't see pictures, I don't care
about the name. I quite literally look at the journey

(25:49):
people are on, and I look, we have a risk
assessment a psychologist. I look at the programming. When did
they debrief from the Mexican mafia. It's been ten years.
Are they cleaning sober? Because most folks out and a
lot of them, and they fuck things up because they
start using again even though they're parole eligible. They've done
everything right and they were dumb enough to go back.

(26:09):
And I figure they're dumb enough to do that. Here,
they're gonna dumb enough to end up back on the
goddamn streets and back in the pond.

Speaker 5 (26:15):
You because I know, I know, I know how you
like that.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Free the game.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
But I know we're gonna tell them, by the way,
in a minute, we're gonna talk about the goddamn death penalty.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
How about that on your concha? How about that on
your conte?

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Like, just let the motherfucker sit down and do their time.
It's like, uh, what is that you was talking about
in the movies and ship like? But the movies, I'll
be saying they were fucking people will like with the uh,
the the gas chambers and all those kind of ships, Like,
who go and think about creating some ship like that?

(26:52):
The fuck people, that's some sick ship.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Well, I think it's pretty sick that we tell people
it's wrong to kill, and so in the name are
in somehow in the spirit of saying it's wrong to kill,
we kill people premeditated man, and we kill broken people.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Man.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
One thing everybody has in common. They come in here,
they're broken, they're broken some way, shape or form. And
then the idea that we're killing broken people as a
society systemically, and that was something by the way, broken
people killing broken pit And so the question is, yeah,
who's broken. If I'm sitting there, I think there's a
dozen there's a couple dozen guys that were on sand

(27:27):
here in San quin eligible for me to put them
to death, that that had gone through all their all
their appeals and every sing and no I could have overseen.
I could have overseen dozens of things. And that had
been on my watch. Man, Like you decide, you'll go,
and when we go in the ejection room, you'll see
the damn phone. You'll see the phone right there, and

(27:48):
that's the governor's phone for the last phone call. And
if there's no call, I mean that's on your that's
on your conscience.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Man, I couldn't live.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
So if you don't call the governor has the ability
at those last minutes, reprieve and comye. I mean it's
it's that's their life or death to say so. I
did a moratorium. When I got here, I said, I
can't do it. I just I'm not that guy. I
can't do it. I talked to Swartz and Agria was
the last guy that to condempted him in two thousand
and six, and he didn't. He said this very publicly,

(28:19):
and it's not a knock on Arnold at all. He
said it it was last time that was used, right,
Warne was two thousand and six.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, yeah, Well who was it?

Speaker 3 (28:29):
It was Ray Allen and Ray was a legendary guy
for a lot of different reasons. And I asked, I said,
I asked Arnold because I had just done the moratorium.
And I said, you know, I said, how was?

Speaker 2 (28:40):
How was? Just as a human level? And again I
only share this.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Because he's repeated publicly, and he said he said to me, no,
you know, he said, well, I'll give you the asked that.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
He said, you know, you know.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
You know, you know Givin's you know, I slept like
a baby, he said, he slept like a baby. I'm
like whoa. And honestly, that like that hit me in
intense way. He slept like a bit you know what,
and some way like I respect that he did and
he was serious about it. I couldn't. I'm not that guy.
I'm not wired like that. I couldn't do that. And

(29:10):
so that that was a heavy weight that also led
to this California model. It's one thing to do a moratorium,
but we got to do a more torum on stupidity,
doubling down on stupid and the recidiveum rates that are
off the damn charts. People are less safe as a
consequence of our stupidity, and we needed to start doing
program but at scale, not ones, he too, not little

(29:32):
small ball stuff. And the great thing about San Quentin
and Wardon was saying this is it's so proximate, and
proximity is a powerful word, just generally. And that's why
I keep coming back to the prisons because I want
to be proximate to what's happening inside so I make
better decisions on the outside. But the proximity here and
what I'm relating to is so many people that want
to volunteer, and it's one of the reasons this is

(29:53):
a service rich environment, and why I wanted to change
that environment at scale by investing in this California model
at a whole nother level where successfully is clues. If
we can prove it here, we can then lay this
thing out, lay the tracks for forming the rest of
the system. This is the biggest system in the United
States of America, with the largest deskwall in the Western hemisphere.

(30:14):
We have more prisoners in our system than any other
state in America. If we can change it here, Warden's power.
If you can change it here, the paradigm that you
shift in this country with five percent of the world's
population but twenty five percent of the people that are incarcerated.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
How much does it cost to house take care?

Speaker 3 (30:34):
What's the latest number? We were at one hundred and
six thousand two years ago.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
What are we up to this year?

Speaker 6 (30:38):
I think it's about one.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, per poseous, you got the motherfucking fifth largest economy in.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
But you know what world you want to put me
in the mix?

Speaker 2 (30:53):
You are you're gonna be our budget director. God, and
you want to know why. You want to know why.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
But you you were talking out in the yard, Marshaan.
Now you want to have a real conversation. You want
to know what. You want to know why. You want
to know what the contracts are to make phone calls here.
You want to know what the racket is there. You
want to know what the procurement racket is in the
prison industries and how people are making a fortune oft
incarcerating people. You want to know what's going with private
prisons in this country that are incentivizing more folks being

(31:20):
locked up for longer periods.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
And making a fortune.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
And the lobbyists and the lobbyists that are being hired
and the lives that are being destroyed so people can
make money. That's goddamn right. That is a huge part
of this whole thing, a huge part of it. Don't
think for a second you're wrong about that. Everything you
say we're in the yard was spot on. People are
selling you fear and anxiety, and that's what this is about,
fear and anxiety. It's fear based and it's fueled by anger.

(31:45):
And it's understandable because people want to be safe and
they want and I get that, and victims need to
be respected and we need to connect them. I think
we need to connect to that much more. But this
has become a racket, and breaking up this racket is
hard and the opposition is real, and it's not about politics.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Democrats are careful, bro, because when you get to talking
like that stern and all that type of motherfucker they be,
they be creeping and ship. Man, Hey, look well you
just I just rolled over here with you. I like
I said, I like I like living. I like baking up,
brushing my teeth after long nights and getting some oasis,
tearing ship down. But the truth is I like living.

(32:28):
And you know what you are, hot boy. You was
talking about the gang this year. I tell him they
got the red and the blue, red and red with
the politics ship. So he familiar with gang coaching, you
know what I mean? Just how you broke it.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
I hope you all heard what he just said.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Man, you know he talks about it. Know you you
can probably you could probably give me some insights. So
when he turned his mic off and all of that,
we get rid of him. Then I need to high.
Don't talk about it, man. Yeah, so you let me.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
Every time we talked about gang stuff, he said, don't
talk to me about gang stuff.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
How about the gang you're in out there in politics? Yeah, sious,
like nothing says it right it.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Is look here brown zero. They started them gangs. They
separated this ship and then they started conquering. We was like,
which one is you? You the blue or the real one.
You was over here and was like, all right, we're
gonna take all this. They're gonna take all this and
then now hold on, well we want this with nah.

(33:32):
So then y'all politics spilled over into us. It was like, well, ship,
we're gonna go get the motherfuckers and bring them over
here and have them go to work, and this ship
woo woo dann. You had to like, na, we want
to free them, Like hell no, we don't want to
freem Like, well, we're gonna put up what's the prison
up there in New York where they started? So you

(33:53):
was talking in sentems with the the how to get
the gualla for the what you call them inmate nam
incarcerated incarcerat so how you get to get the guala
for them? It was like, well, ship, if we go
out and we catch all of them, then we just
gonna get it up here on the front end for
bringing them. Then we're gonna get it on the back

(34:13):
end because we're gonna send them back down. So y'all,
the whole gang. You fear me though, the damn y'all,
that's crazy when you say it like that, because then
you start looking at individuals that look like me, and
then it's like we're product. Fuck wheretty sick motherfuckers that

(34:34):
be thinking like this to be doing that type of ships.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
You should then you're angry, man.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
I know, politician, but I need to get one of them.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
Now you're getting in the deeper conversations about it. And
there's nothing more true about the system. That it is
better to be rich and guilty than then poor and innocent.
Is a damn fact. Rich and guilty, you're better off
than poor and innocent. And that's a fuck ub system.

(35:13):
And that is perpetuated and it has been for decades
and decades, not everywhere.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
I'm not naive.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
I'm not casting as persions on people trapped in this
damned system, but it is a system that has evolved
over time. You had, I mean, we have vestiges of
slavery here in the prison system. We had convictly seen
after eighteen sixty convict leasing, where they were literally taking
the incarcerated and folks in the private sector were basically
getting them for ten cents an hour, and literally the

(35:41):
prisons were making money off the backs of folks that
otherwise were previously enslaved. I mean there's serious stuff, segregation
and lynching, everything that's gone on for decades and decades
have been institutionalized. And I hate when these assholes, these
politicians that aren't aproximate to anything, never been in systems
like this, never been in communities where you probably start
talking about all this, they don't know what they're talking about.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
I'm saying, if they just serve their community, right, this
is the thing about the politician, like, if they there
to serve the community, and shit, I really just be
seeing them just go stack up coins and then they
just mobbing, like you feel me? I know, we don't,
you know what I mean, we don't. We don't talk
about dog. That's what we're gonna We're just gonna call

(36:24):
him dog or folks. But you know what I mean.
I heard him say like, if y'all wan't fucking change change,
want me to pay tax, change the laws, but you're
not gonna do that because it's gonna affect you. Feel
me though, something bigger than what y'all are willing to
talk about So y'all just gonna let me say this

(36:44):
and be like, oh, he ain't he ain't talking about shit,
But ain't nobody gonna go and really looking to these
tax laws that he talking about and start changing shit.
Because I mean, at the end of the day, that comment,
you just you know, I don't let you say a
lot of shit, but I really fuck with that one,
that one you tell you rich and guilty.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, rich and guilty and poor in innocent.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
So I mean it's oftentimes it's race more than culpability.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
And I didn't get that was I didn't even get
in the race there.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
I was talking about wealth, but then we get into
race and that becomes more of a factor than culpability
in terms of sentencing. And it's I don't think this,
we know this, This is not this is it is
like that the guy we just met, he said, this
is just math.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
It's it's just fact. It's a fact.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, and you right now, this is why I'm this.
This shit is just came right on time. Man, I'm black.
Because the thing is, like I was telling you, like
that was an opportunity and it didn't come from me.
It came from somebody who's been in here for twenty
seven years, and he gave you the same ism that

(37:50):
I gave you when we was hollering. So you see
that from twenty seven years ago when he was outside,
it's the same shit probably where he looking at it
like it's turned up a little more. And what he
was talking about the fact that I got a little
bit of that was if I was outside, I could
run down to the rect Center where I didn't need
no sign up or nothing. I was a kid, Hey,

(38:12):
come in here, you know deeds to play wool whoop,
and you do something wrong, you get your ass whooped there,
and then I'm gonna call your house or take you
home to your mama, and then you're gonna get another
ass whooping there. That sense of community, that sense of
community is lost now that is no longer there.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
That's I hear you.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
That's that's that's a that's a problem. But it just
sounded like to the point when I think about it,
in y'all community, you feel me, y'all, don't worry about
no type of ship like that because everything else.

Speaker 5 (38:44):
I mean, we don't. I mean, to be honest with you,
we've been blessed and it's not right.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
I'm not sure like it's a good or a bad thing.
I'm just saying as far as are like problems, right,
this is a huge issue going home not knowing if
tonight I'm going eat And that's just like that's serious though, right,
because you think about when you come home, like yeah,

(39:09):
I just had school or whatever, like damn, moms ain't here. Fuck,
we ain't got no the lights ain't on. Damn. I
just hope and just pray that it's gonna be at
least a peanut butter sandwich or a syrup soundwich or
you feel me though, I hope it's some spam in
a like and you come home to not team your

(39:31):
stomach started doing that, putting that hole on you, choking
the shit out you, like, what the hold on? I
can't I'm about to die. I gotta survive what I'm
gonna do. I'm a kid. Ain't nobody there ain't nobody
to say, hey, look, hold on, fin the you know
what I mean, make this wish sandwich? You fear me though,

(39:54):
or whatever, And it's now I gotta go outside and
get something to eat. How I don't know, But what
I seen or what I heard, and that one home
rey night leads you into a situation like this was
I didn't know. I just wanted a piece of his

(40:16):
chicken and he turned and I By the.

Speaker 5 (40:19):
Way, it's it's such a powerful thing to say.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
And most people in the world and everything about that,
they think, why this guy do this?

Speaker 5 (40:24):
What happened here?

Speaker 2 (40:25):
They have no idea that.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Board, right, and you looking at that paperwork. The paperwork
ain't gonna say that. It's not gonna say that, this
is why this kid was here and did what. He's
not gonna say that. And then you're looking at that
paper and I'm not saying you personally, but they get
that paper and they look at that name and it's
I throw that motherfucker. Or if they get that paper

(40:50):
they look at that picture and they throw that motherfucker.
Or they get that paperwork and they look at the
black and white on it in this it won't say that.
But how do we get to it? Explain that? And
then from the ship that do really do be going
on to who is a fucked up situation?

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Well, I mean you're right, I mean.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
The file I get is everything that happens after that, right,
and I guess it's just that's the lesson you know
you can It's it's not what happens, it's what you
do with what happens that determine your fate in future.
And it's it's everything that happened. It's the folks that
will survive and thrive on the outside are folks that

(41:33):
understand that I can't make up for the past. I'm
not the worst thing I ever did. Just because you
know I stole something doesn't mean I'm a thief, doesn't.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Mean I am a thief.

Speaker 5 (41:43):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
And those that go on a journey of discovery and
they can demonstrate that, those are the folks that that's
what I read, and that's the journey.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
That I want to support.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
And then the work beyond this conversation is the work
about how do I see a different future?

Speaker 2 (41:59):
How do I these things? From the beginning, And I
don't want.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
To even bore you with the bullshit politicking or politics
of pre natal goddamn care or zero to three or
early head start or childcare or high quality tutoring and
mentorship and addressing learning disabilities and all the bullshit that
is real. Where we got to begin at the beginning
to address these cycles of violence, ignorance, and disease. But

(42:23):
both of those things have to happen. But the thing
we're trying to control for here is what we are
responsible for while people are here. And this California modelman
is taking the best ideas from around the rest of
the world and across this country and bringing the bear
and one of the coolest and most amazing things for me,
that's revelatory. And I hope you appreciate this, Doug and
Marshaun is we're actually in quite literally one of the

(42:47):
great rehabilitation programs in American history. What San Quentin News
is represented to inmates here for years and years and years,
and the opportunity. I remember we were here just a
few months ago and there was a kid who said,
all is ever since he got into the system, his
dream was to get into this room, he said, and

(43:08):
I swear to God true story. We were sitting he
was right behind me and he's sitting there and said,
you know what I finally got here.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
I said, that's amazing. Goes.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
No, you know what was amazing is when I had
my byline on San quent News and I said, that's
amazing goes, no, no, you know it was really amazing,
he says. When I called my mom and she got
a copy of it, and she said the words I
never heard her say in my life, true story, I'm
proud of you. And he said that just it brought
me it, just I'm proud of you.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
Do you know what what's crazy is Like I'm saying,
like I've been up here to visit my pops and shit. Right,
but as I started to like think about it, memories
and shit like that ship that you know, I don't
want to hold in here like I thought about it,
I said, noam you know what, I've never heard my
my pops tell my mother I love you. And then

(44:01):
I can't even remember if he ever even told me
some shit like that, you feel me, So it would
be the little wins like you feel me when you
get him, like you gotta stack them motherfuckers up? So
is he here? No, it's not okay, say shit, I
want to get that man out. What's having my boy?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Right?

Speaker 1 (44:20):
You feel me? But you're like that be a part
of the like the healing process. Yeah, that's where it started,
Like ooh shit, I felt something like what the fuck
just happened. Oh that didn't feel right, but it felt good.
Oh what the fuck is that?

Speaker 3 (44:34):
Like?

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Get that shit off me, typ hold on. But I
liked it though a little bit. Let me try to
figure out what's going on. So then those kind of programs, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
I mean that that hit me in a different way
because all of a sudden, I mean, that guy's on
the path.

Speaker 5 (44:51):
And how old was he a recovery? He's a kid, bro,
he was nineteen twenty and.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
He's yeah, he's a kid if he was twenty two three,
I mean, the kid and he's gonna be here probably
a couple of decades, or he may be here the
rest of his goddamn life, may die here if he
doesn't get his ship together. But he's on a different pathway,
And there's power in those words. Man power in the
wordst then what his mom never said to him and
like and here he is sharing.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
It openly to a bunch of folks.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Man, So it goes to your I mean what you
just said about your pops, your mom, those things, it's
a those are powerful, powerful words.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, all right, that's how you going.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
We're going to death row.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Let's go to death row.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Wait a second, I'm coming round with that. Yeah, get
get old.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Get your ass over here, Jesus Christ litterally, my bucking
little league guy.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
I told you, I told you it's good, all right? Yeah, absolutely, yeah,
I woke up.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
That's the best thing I can do. Thanks.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
What so how what? How long you been here now?

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Two years now too? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (46:09):
And you were aware before.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Season nough for two and a half years, and James
sounds like three weeks.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
And then I was here before that for almost ten years. Jesus,
So how much more time.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Would I go back in FORO in? Two years?

Speaker 2 (46:22):
In two years?

Speaker 5 (46:22):
All right?

Speaker 2 (46:23):
So that's around the corner.

Speaker 7 (46:23):
And you're senior dougka Hey, tell Doug how we know
each other?

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Oh yeah?

Speaker 5 (46:29):
Really well literally?

Speaker 8 (46:30):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Ten season twin city lit.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
Bro.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
Now, let me ask you a question. I'm telling you
right now. He was a decent player, but you were
much better than he was. I can tell right now.

Speaker 6 (46:38):
All right, Hey, he did all right till until he
ran into Kirk Yaeling and broke his arm.

Speaker 7 (46:43):
Well there was that, See, Jesus, I mean a guy
who remembers Kurt yealing, I'll feel the sacond based patient.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Okay, Uh, he was actually one year ahead of men?

Speaker 4 (46:52):
Would you be could you have a chance keep going
a plane.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
In high school and college? Yeah? The choices I made right?

Speaker 3 (46:58):
But but but when did you start making the crazy choices?

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Quick them? Baseball?

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Really?

Speaker 3 (47:04):
So these I went from hanging out with guys like
you and others, You're hanging out with guys.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Like, hey, what do you want to do? Let's go
get right and.

Speaker 5 (47:10):
What are you in here for?

Speaker 1 (47:11):
Btrike?

Speaker 4 (47:13):
Okay, yeah, so you're not You're not getting out, You're
you're right now.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
No, he's mean, he's coming up from eating right.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Now twenty eight and Jesus, I got a five years
now just for a prison Davor.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
Let me ask questions as the crew you have back
in the day, the family are they do they?

Speaker 5 (47:29):
Are they involving you now you see him?

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Or is this your family here now?

Speaker 5 (47:33):
Or what's your family?

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Mainly here? My friends are here. I've been in throughout life,
and I'll just struggle in here.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Uh but no, because when I first felt there wasn't
a lot of communications.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
The lines are so expensive at the time, and then
everyone has their own life.

Speaker 6 (47:48):
You know, they're you know, they're in the mid twenties,
they're trying to start a family in their careers, you know,
and they're still trying to fun.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
He knows Hillary, you know Hillary, Okay, okay, crazy, that's crazy,
little man.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
So it was the drugs that sort of left that.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Oh absolutely, absolutely, you know, it was uh, you know,
everything once I quit playing ball. And that's that's to
tell these guys because now I'm coaching on the team.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Oh you're coaching mentally? Is sitting there? You're looking You're
played right there over the La Soul.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
I mean, I mean, is it like you're like, oh
my god, it played little right there and now I'm
right here.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yes, everywhere I look. I have a memory. Yeah. But
at the same time, yeah, it's knowing that I'm sober.
You know, I went to school five. I mean, he's
my house ten minutes.

Speaker 6 (48:34):
The house is about seven minutes.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
I appreciate you keep going.

Speaker 8 (48:38):
What was it a roundable red table around round table pizza?

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Oh yeah, that was our team right on.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah that in the court Madero one in the court there.
But I guess they put a bank there or something exactly.
There's a bank there.

Speaker 9 (48:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, we're getting old. Yeah, it's good to see you again.
You guys get to go take care.

Speaker 7 (48:58):
Good you look, I mean, the only thing that the
only way this thing works is you guys make it work, man,
And the whole idea is I mean, honestly, I'm not exaggerating.
If we can make what's about to be unveiled on
the other side of that wall and just tenexting the programming,
and if if we can see the results of that,
then we're gonna spread it in every damn prison and

(49:19):
it's a big goddamn deal.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Do you think it's going to be picked up by
other states?

Speaker 2 (49:23):
That's the whole idea because everything California does.

Speaker 6 (49:25):
Man, already, wait, thank you, thank you, appreciate it.

Speaker 8 (49:33):
I ain't gonna happen, but I appreciate you, Man, President,
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Thank you for giving us hope. My name is just
in my little thanks for everything you do. For appreciate man,
Thank you. Uh, we got a lot of work to
do here, bro.

Speaker 9 (49:46):
I've been here in my whole dull life, and I've
never had this much hope.

Speaker 5 (49:49):
I love it in the future for us that's incarcerated people.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
So it's a lot of that.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Comes from you and the work you do.

Speaker 8 (49:54):
Appreciate it, brother, that means a lot. Keep it up, brother,
Keep it up, guys. I'm good brother.

Speaker 5 (50:06):
How you doing.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
You're blessed. I love that.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
That's a good attitude. Take care of man Ward.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
How many people were here at one time when this
thing was fifty twenty years ago, in in death row.

Speaker 10 (50:18):
So we had close to seven hundred, believe seven hundred
people on death row when I when I got here,
we had uh we have five over five hundred on
death row on death row and they've all been moved
out since.

Speaker 4 (50:30):
Was that the biggest of any state, any state?

Speaker 1 (50:34):
I would say yes.

Speaker 6 (50:35):
I don't know though those data numbers for sure, but
I would because as much as we have, you bro.

Speaker 4 (50:42):
And how many people, how many people on a year,
on a year basis were put to death.

Speaker 6 (50:47):
The people's process is very wrong, so it wouldn't be yearly.
It would actually be sometimes five.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Years, five years, So Doug, over the course of just
the last couple couple months, they've I mean not even
just a couple of months, I mean over the course
of the last couple of years, they've been decommissioning death
row and doing a risk assessment for everybody aside who
comes off.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
But this thing when we start it was completely fooled up.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
And you know these are you can see these single cells.
Anytime someone came out.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Of the cell.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
You can see the cages that they came in right
over here. We'll go to the yard and you can
tell me how great that is.

Speaker 8 (51:29):
Yeah, you can appreciate the yard differently.

Speaker 5 (51:34):
Yes, Scott Peterson was here.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
We actually have another horse.

Speaker 6 (51:37):
Segregation was actually iron came up and honor that will
get it. They were programmers, so they would actually it's
another building on top and their yard was on top
of that building, and they were considered.

Speaker 4 (51:49):
Honored, meaning like they were.

Speaker 6 (51:51):
They didn't have any disciplinary issues.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Oh god, I gotta work your way up there. I
think the most no bullshit.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
The first time I came in, the most alarming thing
was not what is it behind you? It was just
seeing people in these things, wow, and going what the
hell is this? You know, it's like a I mean
that's this is these by the way, these are all
going right, they're all going yeah the outside.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
I yeah, we'll show these guys. You have me selling
you guys want to go past each other?

Speaker 5 (52:22):
You go back, you're saying, you're saying there be two
people in these.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Yeah, so it's one person on top of person on bottom.
So if we share this cell with somebody else, whenever
I need to.

Speaker 6 (52:29):
Go to the back of the cell and we go
back to back, so Gavin would put his chest up
against the rack.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
I put my chest up against the wall, and we like,
not back to back, going back to that way, that way,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah, back to the bay.

Speaker 11 (52:43):
So it's just the size of the cells in the
main in the part of the prison tent.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
Yeah, this is the same size.

Speaker 12 (52:47):
Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
You got another the buildings doesn't have that bar right
there against the wall.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (52:55):
These were all single cells, right, I mean from death row.

Speaker 12 (52:59):
Yes, they were all sulf Now you make someone have one, right,
It's funny with me.

Speaker 5 (53:07):
If people were here.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Till win one year, till a people once ago, weeks ago,
they were just.

Speaker 6 (53:13):
Here literally, and some people went to another and two
together and they ended up selling out to guess it.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Okay, but I want to I want to show him
some of them. Yeah, here's a more seeing Doug, go
to the chapel.

Speaker 9 (53:27):
Yeah, please the chapel. Wow, chaplin right there. But I
thought this was just this was just from death row. Yeah,
we're just you know, looking up with the bomb wire
and everything.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Wow.

Speaker 11 (53:42):
Yeah, and they and they would Chap will be right
there right, And this should be once twice a day,
once a week, once a week, once a week, that's it.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Once a week.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
Well, and then you probably had your your most talkative
and may was literally right there in the corner, right.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
But yeah, if you want these these these cells when
they're in the Wow, this is crazy. Yeah, no, it's uh,
the first time I came in here, the most surreal thing, honestly,
the most serial things. How many people recognize me, like
almost without exception, and then when they heard your name
and then just to hear your voices up top, you forget,

(54:26):
you know.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
I mean, you know, being a mayor being out there
in public. I mean, that's that's that's.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Just it was to me.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
It was a sort of eery experience.

Speaker 4 (54:34):
And again, did the attorneys come in and eating these
guys in here or is there another area where the
attorneys come.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
In and they would go to our visiting area a
visitor Yeah, but but so this all.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
At least for the interim, they're gonna take the these
these out and then they're cleaning them in.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
You're in the rites feels all my cleaner, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Clean up, and the mills start bringing decompressing the general population,
getting rid of some double bunks and bringing people in here.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Oh, you've put prisoners back into here.

Speaker 12 (54:59):
We're gonna redo though, We're gonna, we're gonna if we
want to change the image. You don't want to associate
it with what it was. But the single cell is
very important to a lot of these individuals because, like
we were talking about, you know, there's some scenarios where
you really can't choose it, you as.

Speaker 13 (55:15):
We have even these in the same size as the
main block. Yes, right, two people in the additions all
there's no business. They're all the same communits correct to
swe no sweets.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
I mean there are some things we can do.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
I think you saw the larger ones down there.

Speaker 6 (55:32):
You know, we want to make kitchen ads and areas
where they we'll get you know, microwaving through. We're gonna
do different things to normalize.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Good time there.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
We walked through there, so we're gonna just quickly show
them into the yard.

Speaker 6 (55:45):
Yes, they've evolved a long time. They're currently called individual
exercise guards. It's proper.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
But as you can see, it's pretty much just do so.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
For the condemned inmates that come here for their quote
unquote exercise. But we're read of Marshall all this is
gone and so we're gonna have this for program, for yard,
for whatever else didn't move September DA.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
So you're gonna see, like, bro, you act like you
on what's that home home renovation? Oh yeah, and this
right here, this used to be my single cell incarcerated area.
But I'm gonna tear it down. And I'm like, man,
I'm gonna put a something right here with a gauz
z bo and ship like what you're talking about? Man,

(56:30):
you need to kick his ass up out of here.
You just walking around this motherfucker like a grown man
at uh Disney World or something not Disney World.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Brother, this I just for years we've been talking about this.
It's finally happening. It's a big deal.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
So do you understand what it do to me? Like
I'm not like you know, I watched Ship. I see
Ship and then it it fucked with me.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
And just so.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
You know what I mean, Like I don't want to
keep getting reminded of that ship, Like get it. I
get I get unless, but look, if we going there,
me and you and the gloves, then I'll go in there.
What's that? What the two of us don't mean the
don't be in there with you for like forty five seconds,

(57:21):
just me and you. You could lock the door, locked
it on, give you the he is that clean?

Speaker 2 (57:28):
Just blackout?

Speaker 9 (57:29):
Damn damn grind And I wake up in Marine General Hospital.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Like, no, we're gonna take you to We're gonna take
you to Highland. We'll get to We'll get to the hospital.
Christ full manice back down here right if you don't
have to go, We're gonna you want to see the
gas chamber and say, hell no, I really don't want
to see that, sick ass. But who the fuck be stinking.

Speaker 8 (57:55):
Ship like, because it's important to understand it's not the
barbaric nature of the past, So.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Don't they want to write that motherfucker up right now?
It's just my day that I'm here. I want to
make sure that should work.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
It's on the outside.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
It's literally outside.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
You no my history, dude, ship, who would be making
your mind even thinking? I just wonder if I just
put somebody in this little place and just put on
this gash in it and wonder what they would happen
to him? Why would you want to do that?

Speaker 2 (58:38):
That's this is the ald Gaston, not when we did this.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Decoration since decades.

Speaker 13 (58:48):
They would they would be in there and the family
would be out here, and it's just the guys would
come in here.

Speaker 5 (58:55):
They're saying it.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
That's some white people ship for sure.

Speaker 6 (58:59):
Why if we go outside, you can see the exhaust.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
At the the smost.

Speaker 5 (59:06):
History's history.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Bro, No, what was the process.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Today?

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Coming from a one other sections and somewhere.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Else, they're not coming from this work.

Speaker 6 (59:17):
Yeah, there's a back there's a back way to come
in here. So it's actually by at the end of
the east block of North Block.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
There's access to here yet.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
So they were just walking down.

Speaker 9 (59:26):
It was like forty years ago.

Speaker 6 (59:27):
I think it was like the last time, so before
my time. So I went actual problem because leaf injection
came after, right, so that we have a leathal injection.
They tried to clean it up.

Speaker 14 (59:40):
Try to clean it up, right, and that's been litigated
because it's all the cocktails were so lenses used the
victims family.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
Well, I got it.

Speaker 5 (59:59):
I gotta be honest.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
Gavin. I mean this right here was the weirdest part
of the day man.

Speaker 5 (01:00:05):
Walking out of the gas chamber.

Speaker 4 (01:00:07):
In nineteen eighty, when I was sixteen, seventeen years old,
this thing still existed. I mean, I got it's I
got a weird, weird feel right now walking out of
their mouth.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
And you should because there's dozens and dozens of people
today that could be get condemned to death. And of
course we're using more humane means now with leth injection,
but that's just literally right next door. But the idea,
the gas chamber, even leth injection, used to line people
up and shoot them, hang people.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
So you know, there's a It don't sound a little
bit strange, y'all that when y'all be talking about this,
it's like the people y'all talk about, is they.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Look like me disproportionate.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Man, That ship is fucked up, Like that's y'all, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Because it's fucked moratorium, meaning I stopped it that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
We would have been doing you'd have been reading about.
There have been protests right outside these gates.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
We would quite literally put the ability to put a
couple dozen or a dozen people to death.

Speaker 4 (01:01:09):
Just before this, we saw death row, which was death row,
and for them to be in the cells that you
couldn't even move.

Speaker 5 (01:01:17):
And then go into cages, I mean just to get
to the yard.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
Unbelievable in terms of uh, you know, how they're living.

Speaker 5 (01:01:23):
So I applause, you for get rid of this.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Well, it was the largest one in the largest one.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
And it's not just in America, in the entire Western hemisphere.
We're one of the few countries on planet Earth, one
of the few that still executes people. I mean the Yemen,
in China, countries, the Western democracies have ended the death party.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Nah, you know what I just thought about right now?
Damn standing next to you talking like this and you say,
certain shit is way bigger than just having a conversation.
The motherfuckna take it and blow that shit way out
of proportion. We probably should get to the point where
we don't have none of that ship. I think the

(01:02:05):
rehabilitation thing, we we probably need to take that shit
a little bit further. We're helping then incarcerated just like that.
They don't call them inmates, call them cacerated. But to
help you feel me, because god, damn you think about
you been saying that it's a lot now caught on
to it. The humane that's it. We probably need to

(01:02:27):
get more of that type of shit. Well.

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
To hear your story, end up food in the house, Galvin,
I didn't grow up that way, so you did. And
and to think the choices you can make tend up
in here. Life isn't fair and and the imbalances are
are This is a perfect example of it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
But the thing you get that it's not fair, right,
But the thing is somebody implemented a system for it
to be that particular way. It's just that I get
the short end of the stick when it come to
that shit.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Is that this old fray society becomes how we behave.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
This has happened on our watch. This has happened on
our watch. This is not someone else's problem. This is
the world we have created. And so we all have
some responsibility and some accountability.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Yep. So when you go around for president, but I
was gonna say, you gotta bring me with you. You
can get you from the you feel me level talk
about because we don't have your level. But then you're
gonna need do you feel me level.

Speaker 10 (01:03:27):
Me?

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
And who are we kind of talk on the level.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
President President about you gonna have you feel.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Me speak to do you feel me? When you spoke
to the you feel me? That's how I do want
to say that like you as you feel mean.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
I want to say quick is this.

Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
I want to appreciate you because you are the new
wave of this and you're not the wave that you
see and you hear about whatnot where you know you're
the guy in shawsh a redemption. You're these different You're
doing the new way because that's what it's all about.
So I appreciate this today. It was real and enlightening
and scary.

Speaker 5 (01:04:07):
In the world.

Speaker 4 (01:04:08):
So I appreciate what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Because you were doing a ship. They wouldn't like, oh
here it is Assholen ship. They were. It was for sure,
it was different.

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
They know you had the which is really cool to
see man, because I was not expecting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
But Doug, you know, also he is back.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
I mean the people that these folks have hurt as well.
I mean, this is not about being soft on crime.
This is not about absolving any responsibility.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Quite the contrary.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
People make a mistake, they have to not only live
with that, they have to pay the price for the
mistake they made. But again the reality is tens of
thousands of people are released every single year back into
your neighborhood. Do you want them to come back angry,
with a chip on their shoulder, less productive and constructive,
more likely to commit a crime again, or take the
time to humanize and address the underlying reasons why they're

(01:04:56):
so broken in the first place. And that's the approach
the war and sane and that's what this California model
is about.

Speaker 4 (01:05:01):
Twenty thirty people I met today are more compassionate at
a deeper heart than a lot of people I see
every day walking the streets going to stores at the DM.
I mean, it is real, these guys. It's they got it.
And what you're doing ward works work.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
And what's so?

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
I think you hear you've lived it in all the
work you've done. But I keep experience every time I
come back. The folks have said t X number of
years ago. I had no hope, and so I acted accordingly.
I didn't give a damn about myself, I didn't give
a damn about my cellmate, I didn't give a damn.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
About the warden of the guards.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
And all of a sudden, you guys started giving us hope.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
That if we.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
Program, we do the right thing, if we're more empathetic,
if we address the issues of the violence we did
outside these gates, and then maybe we have a chance
to get the hell out of here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
And that mindset is pretty powerful, and I hope it's
it's paying dividends for.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
All the extraordinary staff that you have and and the
hard work these guards do every single day. And I
made this point about the California We don't want to
do this to the guards. We want to do it
with the guards, but nor do we want to do
it to the inmates. We want to get there there
they're incarcerated. We want to get their council advice. And
you've created these advisory committees that are inclusive not only

(01:06:19):
people on the inside, but on the outside that have
real experience, lived experience here at said Quentin.

Speaker 6 (01:06:25):
Yeah, I think that hope is safety for all of us.
We walk in here and you feel the vibe. The
vibe is kind of different. Right any given day you
can walk in here, here a band playing, see a
softball game going down. You know, we walked and talked
and shook hands with a bunch of people that live
and work here, right, and it wasn't this depressing feeling, right,
So we're trying to make the best of what we got,
but we got a lot more more to do as well.

Speaker 11 (01:06:45):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
I appreciate it, thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:06:46):
I appreciate you, guy, it very much.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
Appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Thank you, sir, thank you, thank you. Appreciate you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Yes, sir, I'm still trying to figure out how y'all
got the bank b