Performance Psychologist: Why Your Brain Quits Before Your Body Does

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Performance psychology is about getting to the next level of
whatever it is you want to improve in your lives.
There's some study out there that shows that we're capable
of pushing ourselves forty percent more than we think. I
call it the MVP process. The M standing for mindfulness,
the V stands for visualization, and the P stands for
that positive coaching. I love evolutionary psychology. So much of

(00:23):
what we do is rooted in the dawn of human civilization.
The way we bonded with each other was by walking together,
by running together, by traveling together, moving side by side together.
When you're running, it allows you to access a part
of yourself below conscious awareness. Hypnosis is extremely powerful tool

(00:46):
that we have inside of us.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
So what do people get wrong about hypnosis?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
You are always in control.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hi guys, it's your host Kate Max and welcome back
to post run High. We have a really special guest today,
my mother in law, doctor Dana Libo, who has been
a psychologist and performance coach for over thirty years. Dana
is also a marathon runner. She started running marathons at
fifty five years old and has since run over eighteen marathons. Now,

(01:18):
I just want to take a moment before we get
into today's episode to say thank you guys so much
for listening to our show. It really means the world
to us, and your listening ship and support helps us
continue bringing you inspiring conversations. All we want is to
add value to your lives, and I really think this
episode with Dana is going to do just that. Without

(01:41):
further Ado or episode with doctor Dana Libo.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Dana, how are you. I'm doing great, Kate, and I'm
so thrilled and honored to be here. I've been watching
you for well a little less than thirty years, but
just to always before I go to bed at night,
I watch Post Run High just a few minutes. It's
kind of my ritual now and I am definitely one

(02:09):
of your biggest fans.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, I am so excited to have you on Post
Run High. We've had you on our running interview show
quite a bit, so those of you that watch our
running interview show are definitely familiar with Dana and her story,
and today we just have the opportunity to go a
little bit deeper with you, which I'm super excited about.
So we are doing a little bit of an extended
Post Run High episode, and that is because we ran yesterday.

(02:33):
We kind of did a run walk, if I'm being honest,
but we did a run walk yesterday and it was
eighty four degrees. It was eighty four degrees. We're here
in California on a family trip. But now a few
hours later we are sitting down for our post run
high episode. So how are you feeling.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
I'm feeling great, Yeah, yeah, after my morning coffee and
sitting here with you ready to go.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, the coffee is important, It sure is, so, Dana.
The last time we saw you, or my audience saw you,
was at the New York City Marathon where you fell
around mile twelve and broke your arm. Can you talk
to us a little bit about what happened during the
race and then what happened after.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, it was a point Kate where the roads kind
of converged. There was a lot more people kind of
crammed together on a narrower road, and I was running
with this wonderful pacing group and trying to make sure
not to lose the head pacer. And one guy was
running around encouraging everybody, and he put his arm around

(03:37):
my shoulder while we were running, and he's like you're
doing great, keep going. Just threw me off balance a little,
and I don't know if it was a pothole or what.
The ground was uneven, we were packed in like sardines
and just happened so quickly. I went flying, and I remember,
thank God for my arm because that's what stuff from

(04:01):
hitting my head on the ground. And the thing is,
though I knew something was wrong, but what went through
my head immediately was You've got to finish the race.
You've got to finish the race. And here I'm lying
on the road. I think a couple of people had
stopped to prevent me from being trampled. But I just
lucked out. I lucked out because there was a volunteer

(04:22):
on the side of the road. She brought me to
the med tent and it was only like half a
mile away. I mean, I fell at a great spot
for support and help, and there were two sports medicine doctors.
I knew it was bad when a couple things. They said,
when you get to the er, if they offer you morphine,

(04:43):
take it. And they also said, in response to my
pushing to can I go? Can I go? I want to.
I wanted to meet you guys, at mile sixteen, and
I wanted to cross that finish line. I think that's
what goes through any marathon runner's head. I mean, you're
there to finish that race, come hell or high water.

(05:05):
And they said, look, you could die if you keep running,
and then explained, you know, they didn't know how badly
the bones were broken, that anyway I could have cut
into a vein or something with a jagabut. I mean,
too much information, I know, but they they convinced me

(05:27):
that it was not safe to keep going. So they
were wonderful though, put me in a maneuver to the er,
and I was just blown away. I know, you and
Jeremy came and you took pictures of those X rays,
and then my daughters pickleball partners. Brother in law was

(05:48):
a top hand surgeon and Maryland, and he's seeing the
x rays that you took pictures of just a few
minutes later, and then they're being sent to someone at
Duke University who was his best friend as a resident
years ago, and he was a top hand surgeon in
North Carolina where we live. I just lucked out. Within
a couple of days. I was in surgery, and as

(06:10):
you could see cast is off. Even though I do
have to wear it. I have to wear it when
I run and just to be safe. So yeah, I
was able to do the Turkey Trot, and even though
the hand surgeon said to me, don't try to win
the race overall, don't try to get a PR, I

(06:32):
did win my age group. And then a couple of
weeks later I ran another race. The Turkey Trot was
five miles. This one was a ten k and I
won my age group. There. I guess when you get older,
the competition does then a little. But I was able
to run more slowly and still win, so that feels good.
I needed to cross the finish line again, and so

(06:52):
I've been able to do that a couple times since
the fall.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah, I think runners are definitely built different. It's like
something goes wrong, something happens, and all us runners want
to do is get back out there and be able
to go for a run again. And I've been in
similar situations where I've been injured, where I've had knee injuries,
where I have to wait and wait and wait to
get back out there and go for a run, And
there really is nothing like it, and I feel like

(07:16):
going through these types of injuries makes you appreciate having
a healthy body and being able to run so much more.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Absolutely, yeah, And I think that's it right there, Kate.
You don't realize how much we take for granted when
we're fully healthy and you know everything is working. But
when something goes wrong, you know, it just makes us
appreciate how we've got to take care of ourselves. And

(07:43):
you know, I think there's a lot of runners who
there's always something, especially as you get older, there's always
something that is bothering you. Whether it's the achilles or
the calf muscle, or you know, a hip has just
a few months left before it needs to be replaced.

(08:03):
There's always something.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
There's always something. And I liked what you said when
you were talking about what happened during the race. You said,
come hell or high water. As a marathon runner, you
want to finish that race. And obviously this was a
unique situation. You fell, you broke your arm, you had
to get a couple screws and metal plates put into
your arm, so this was a serious injury. But I'm
sure there's been times in your eighteen plus marathons that

(08:27):
you've had leg cramps or things that happened that made
you want to stop, and you've been able to push
yourself through.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah. I think you're getting at Kate what
every runner faces, whether you're long distance running or even
if you're running a five k or ten k, whatever
it is. I think you reach a point or at
some point in the race where you hit a wall.
Walls are famous in marathons. They usually happen around mile

(08:57):
twenty one or something. I've had the wall hit me
at My Life eleven and you just are running, thinking
every bone in my body, every ten in every muscle
is screaming stop and you just want to curl up
on the side of the road and fetal position. But
you've got to psych yourself in that moment. And I

(09:19):
know you've been through it too. I've seen your documentary
and you just I think it's a combination of I
call it the MVP process. I mean we all think
of MVP, you know, it's a famous acronym, but I
like to think of the M standing for mindfulness, which

(09:42):
just kind of take a few deep breaths. The V
stands for visualization. You visualize something that keeps you going,
and it's different for everybody, you could have like fifteen
or twenty things that you might visualize that psych you
up in that moment. And the P stands for that
positive coaching that you, you know, kind of stand outside yourself

(10:03):
and coach yourself. You've got this day in it. You
know you can do it. You know you can push
through this, just keep going. And so combination of those
three things, everybody can kind of tailor it to themselves.
I mean, I for the mindfulness piece, I kind of
look around and remind myself to enjoy what I'm doing,

(10:24):
to take in the sounds of the roaring crowds, to
feel the rhythm of the run, the pace, the beat
of even my heart. As I'm running, you kind of
get into a music. And so that's the m for mindfulness.
And then the I visualize, I mean, I have so
many things I visualize. Sometimes I'll visualize someone I know

(10:47):
who's not doing so well and you know, maybe is
ill or has an injury, and I think I'm running
for you. You know, I'll imagine that I'm carrying them with me,
and that really gets me going just to think I
can I'm still vertical, I can keep running. And so

(11:08):
you know, for some people, it might be visualizing even
the finish line. There's actually been studies that show that
runners who think about the finish line visualize it as
they're running. It actually helps them speed up and keep going.
So I might be at mile sixteen and I'm imagining
that finish line and what it's going to feel like

(11:30):
when I cross over it, so that that gives me
that little boost. And then just kind of the things
I say to myself, Dana, you've been here before. You
know it's hard, but you know your body can do it.
There's some study out there that shows that we're capable
of pushing ourselves forty percent more than we think. And

(11:50):
I just tell myself that, you know, you've gone ten
miles and you feel you're at your limit, you can
go four more at least. It coach myself as if
I'm my own coach, you know, and it gets me through.
It gets me through.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
MVP MVP, and you know, I think the hardest thing
about sometimes being a psychologist and just being a human
being is we're all capable of giving other people advice
and helping coach other people, But sometimes the hardest job
is when we have to coach ourselves, right, but you've
been capable of coaching yourself. And if you don't mind
me saying, you know you've only been running since you

(12:29):
were fifty years old.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Right, Well, yeah, I mean I jogged a lot to
stay in shape up to that point. I mean I
did run when the kids were little. I had a
single jogging stroller, double jogging stroller, and then, believe it
or not, before jogging strollers were even popular, my husband
and I managed to find a triple jogging stroller. So

(12:51):
we would be running on the side of the road
with our triple jogging stroller at a time when no
one even thought about using strollers for and people we
would stop. Traffic couldn't believe that we had three little
ones strapped in running along. So yeah, I ran just
to stay in shape. But I never thought that I

(13:11):
could run distance. I mean I remember thinking marathon, that's unbelievable.
And my husband started running them, and a couple times
I would meet him with maybe eleven fifteen miles left
for him to go, and I know it's not good,
but I would get on there and just kind of
run bandit with him, and I know that's you know,

(13:33):
we're not supposed to do that.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
But what do you mean by run band it?

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Well, I wasn't registered, I didn't have a BIB. I
just would kind of get on the course and run
with him. And these were local, informal marathons, and I
would notice running the last ten miles. I did that
with my daughter. Also that there were a lot of
people walking, and I thought, oh, I didn't know you

(13:57):
were allowed to walk, so why can't I do that.
I'll try running a marathon and if I get tired, heck,
I'll just walk. And so we signed up for a
I think it was the All American Marathon near Fort
Bragg in North Carolina, and my god, I remember passing

(14:20):
the ten mile mark and thinking, wow, I feel really good.
I was fifty five years old at the time, and
I'm looking around. I don't know where my husband went.
And so I just kept going and I think at
mile sixteen I hit a wall, and I don't know
what a wall was at that time. I just felt like, I, okay,
if you're gonna walk, walk now. But what I did

(14:41):
instead was I remember calling up my daughter and she
had her whole family around her, and I said to her, Sandra,
I feel like, I'm gonna die. What do I do?
And she said, Mom, just keep going. And she said,
we'll call you every like, you know, five ten minutes,

(15:04):
just to give you a boost, and she did. She
called me. The whole family was cheering for me on
the phone, and I remember just drinking in that energy
from them and thinking of my grandson at the time
and granddaughter and just seeing their little faces smiling, hearing

(15:26):
them cheer for me, and it kept me going. And
I'll tell you too, At that particular marathon, there was
a mile where they had flags of fallen soldiers, and
I remember running through that mile just so overwhelmed by emotion.
I was crying. I don't think I've ever cried while running,

(15:49):
but I just remember the tears and so impacted by
the thought of, you know, the lives that they gave
for their country. And it pushed me that, you know,
we can still run and we can still move forward,

(16:12):
and that they would want us to run and to
keep going and to impact the world in some positive way.
So that that really empowered me too. And you know,
I was thinking a member of our family was very
sick at that time. M that helped.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
I thought of him and the member of your family
that was sick was your son, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, sorry, that kept me going. He kept going.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
He was sick, but he kept going, and he was
an inspiration for all of us. He ran triathlons and
races and open water swims and he would his skin
was gray, he was so sick, but he kept going
and that just inspired me.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
And so all these thoughts I think go through the
marathon runner's head. You know, we can run because we can.
We can run because we can, and so when you
hit that wall, that's what you think about. And suddenly
the finish line is there within sight, and there's nothing

(17:31):
like crossing over it and then knowing too, even though
it's the finish line, there'll be another start soon. There's
always another run, no matter what race that you decide
to join. And I'll tell you even at the New
York City Marathon when I fell, you know, I realized

(17:54):
that we all get tripped up on the way to
a finish line. And so then we've got three choices.
We can either push through, crawl, you know, scramble, do
whatever we can to still get to that finish line.
If it's against medical advice, we might need to listen.

(18:16):
We could also postpone the finish We always have that option.
There's always another race. Yeah, just put it off and
take the time that we need to heal. And then
two we can reroute. We can change the story. We

(18:37):
don't have to cross that finish line. There's other finish lines.
We can change the story. And I think that's what
I did. I met so many wonderful people getting hurt.
I have a different story. Haven't quite crossed the New
York City Marathon finish line, but I've crossed others.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Well, you have crossed the New York City Marathon finish
line well a couple times before.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
But I mean, yeah, there's always next year.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, there's always next year. And I think the beautiful
thing about running is even if you know, whether you're
doing a race or going out for a three mile
run on your own, it's never guaranteed that it's going
to be a good run. And I think that's what
keeps people going also, right, it's the ability to say, Okay,
this challenged me, and now I want to come back

(19:25):
and do it again, and do it and be stronger
this time. Right, And that goes for running or just
working out in general, right, there's always those times where
the workout and the practice of doing it is going
to challenge you, and that's where the mental toughness comes in.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Kate, it is a little different
when you're older. I'll be honest.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
You know you did say that too. I have to
shout this out. So so Dana and I we did
a video for where we were picking you out a
race day out there you're actually wearing one of the shirts. Yeah,
we bought you.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
I am this was the shirt I fell in.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yep, this it's the shirt that you fall in. And
for our listeners, she's wearing a light blue Virory long
sleeve top. It's go Carolina. I know you got it
because you wanted to be wrapping your Carolina blue, which
is where you live in North Carolina and where Jeremy,
my husband, went to you and see your son. But
when we were filming, you said something along along the
lines of you don't know if a bone's going to
break or a hamstring is going to give out, because

(20:21):
at sixty five years old, just anything can happen.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
So yeah, yeah, and I got to tell you there
are a lot of runners out there that are much
older than sixty five. There's nothing more inspiring to than
should be running a marathon and seeing someone who's like
eighty two years old just pushing along and one step
after another. I think that, you know, we can stay

(20:45):
in as good as shape as possible kit as we
get older. Yet you know, there's also reality that we're
not young spring chickens anymore. I mean, we don't have
the same bodies we did when we were twenty four
years old. So it's hard, you know, it's hard to
honor what our bodies are telling us sometimes. And I mean,

(21:06):
I know I have run through injuries trying to ignore
what my body's saying. And yeah, I know you said
that we don't necessarily practice what we preach or walk
the talk or I know, right after my surgery, the
next day, I was back to work, you know, with

(21:27):
all the pain and everything right, and you know, some
of the team was teasing me, like doctor Lebo. You know,
here you're telling everybody else to take the time to
rest and recover, but you're back here without giving yourself
that time. And so I think, you know, sometimes as
we get older, we think there's not as much time

(21:50):
ahead as we've had behind and so maybe there's renewed
urgency or something, and it doesn't have to be running.
It could be anything to still keep some passion, still
keep something going in our lives that we love that
gives us meaning and purpose. I mean, running is just
one piece of life. There's so many others as well.
And you know, as you get older, you get better

(22:14):
better in so many ways. I mean, I know we
were talking earlier about how some people actually run better,
improve their times as they get older, and I know
I certainly have. I don't have much comparison from when
I was younger. I just jogged, but you know, I
found myself for some years getting better and better each year.

(22:35):
And there's that, I guess, exhilaration that we don't have
to let age defy us or deny us. I mean,
there's so many athletes out there, Olympians who have shown
us that hey, I'm thirty six years old and I
can still win the fifty yard dash or something, or

(22:56):
you know, sprint in the water, and I mean that
are just modeling to the world that we don't have
to give up. There's so many there's so much more
we could do as we get older.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
A couple weeks ago on the podcast, we interviewed Nicholas Thompson,
who's the CEO of the Atlantic and he's also in
the age group over forty five, but he holds the
world record for the fastest fifty k for men over
forty five, which is about thirty miles, And he was
saying that in his thirties, he was consistently running a
specific marathon time and it was a fast marathon time,

(23:41):
like he was in the sub three hour category, right,
so he's running a fast marathon, but he got stuck
at this one time and he couldn't break out of it.
And then finally he describes it as a psychological breakthrough
and all of a sudden, in his forties he was
able to significantly drop his time by about ten minutes,
where he's now running a two hour and twenty eight

(24:02):
minute marathon. Wow, what do you think happened to cause
a psychological breakthrough that allows him to go faster?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
You know, it's interesting you ask that question. And I
don't know if it's just for runners. I think it's
for athlete in any sport. I honestly believe it has
something to do with being fully in the present moment.
You know, you're just being grounded in what you see
and hear and feel and smell as you're moving, you know,

(24:34):
and you're just so at one with kind of that
in the zone force. Nothing hampers you. Your mind doesn't
get in the way. You're just free. I think it's
a freeing process. And there's a love, there's a passion.
You're feeling it in the moment. You know, it's you know,

(24:54):
so we let our minds get in our way so often.
But I imagine he was just fully at one with
just running in the zone, you know, just fully absorbed
in it, and nothing, you know that, no, nothing in
his head was in the way or worries, concerns. He

(25:15):
just let all that go and broke through that barrier.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah. And the way he described it too, was that
he had cancer in his early thirties, and he before
having cancer, he was running a fast marathon time. And
then when he got back into running post having cancer,
he was just obsessed with being able to be as
fast as he was pre cancer. And then all of
a sudden, the psychological breakthrough came as soon as he realized,

(25:42):
why am I being so hell bent on running the
same path at the same time that I did pre cancer,
and as soon as he left that behind him and
kind of focused on what you're saying, which is the
present moment, he was able to break through and not
holds himself to that one time.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah. Yeah, because he we evolved. He he evolved, he
evolved to a different person, you know, and let go.
It sounds like he finally let go And in so
many ways that's freeing when you can just let go
and be in the moment and just thelled that we're
alive right now.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Right.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
So, you're a psychologist that's been practicing for over thirty
years and during that pre marathon viewery run that we
did getting you your outfit, you also said something interesting
that was people hit the wall in marathons, and of course,
when we're talking running, it makes a lot of sense
to use hit the wall as an example, but people
hit the wall in life as well. And you also

(26:41):
described yourself as a performance coach. So can you talk
to us about that?

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Well, I think, Kate, we all have things in our
lives that we want to improve in and performance psychology
is about getting to the next level of whatever it
is you want to improve in your life. It could
be a skill, it could be a behavior, it could
be a mindset, even a mood. And so you know

(27:09):
what happens between where we are with whatever that skill
is we want to get better at or behavior or
mood or mindset, whatever it is, and between where we
want to get And I'm sorry, my arm is still
a little shaking a little from the whole time. This

(27:29):
is my arm that I okay.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
For our listeners, Dana's currently using her broken arm, So
most people are just listening, so you can just relax
that arm and I.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Need to gesture. So we're we're here with whatever we
want to improve at. We want to get there. So
the question is, you know, not where we are where
we want to be. It's more about that gap in between.
If we can tackle one thing in that gap that
can help us get from there here to there, that's

(28:00):
how we get through that wall. And so when I
say tackle one thing, it could be something about ourselves
that gets in the way, you know, like hey, I'm
too impatient, or I procrastinate, or I'm not focused or
I mean you name it fill in the blank, X,
Y or Z. It could be something we want to
build on, like I'm working on stamina and I need

(28:25):
to get forty percent better, or it could be something
even about the situation where in that we want to change.
But there's usually something in the way between here and
there that we need to tackle and it's something specific
and we know what it is. You know, if we
are uncertain what it is, we could ask the people
who know us, love us, around us every day. They'll

(28:47):
tell us what it is. But there's usually one thing
or other things too, but one thing that if we
tackle that, it's going to help everything else. And so
I think as a performance psychologist certainly makes my easier
to focus on that one thing, whether it's for an
athlete or someone in the workplace or you know, someone

(29:08):
who's started a foundation and hitting a wall and fundraising
whatever it is. You know, if you could tackle that
one thing and get it to the next level, it
can help everything else. And so that's I think. You know,
we've all heard the expression less is more, and so

(29:29):
just one thing, what's that one thing between here and
there that's either holding you back or you can build
on that will make all the difference. And I think
that's what performance psychology can help with. You know, there
is such a vast amount of research out there that
shows us what the cutting edge techniques are, what the

(29:50):
best practices are, what the most effective approaches are to
help anything we want to get better at. You know,
now we've got AI. I mean, we're going to ask
chat GBT, but there's always some approaches, methods, treatments out
there that are just best in class, and if we

(30:11):
can find those and customize them apply them to whatever
the person's trying to improve, there's gonna be some results.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
What have you found to be the most effective treatments?

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Well, I mean, it depends on what we're trying to tackle.
You know, if I'll be honest, you know, if someone's
been through some intensive trauma something like that earlier in
life or recently. I mean I know a lot of
athletes who might have fallen also or have some injury,

(30:46):
and it's hard to get the confidence back. So there
are wonderful experiential approaches. And I believe in experiential therapy.
I mean, we could talk all we want about getting
better at something, but I believe you need to set
the stage to actually experience it again, to reframe it,

(31:07):
or to reconstruct the experience in a way that you
know it's new and different and you can face it differently.
So let's say, you know, with my I'll give the
example of my arm. I knew that I needed to
get back on the road again, running again, and so

(31:30):
I found the first safe way I could do that.
You know, my hand surgeon had a cast made for
me that went halfway up my arm, and so that
helped me feel even if I do fall, this thing
is like turning me into the bionic woman, so I'll
be okay. And also I love self hypnosis. I know

(31:55):
sometimes people get freaked out at the thought of hypnosis
because they've been to, you know, a show or something
where someone's up there on stage making people, you know,
flap their arms like chickens or something. But hypnosis is
extremely powerful tool that we have inside of us. It's
I mean many times a day we go into that

(32:17):
in the zone absorbed state, whether we're reading a good
book or driving a car, or if we are watching
a movie that has us on the edge of our seat.
We can create that in the zone experience ourselves, and
if there's an experience that has thrown us off course,

(32:37):
we can go into ourselves and revision it in a
way that is more fruitful productive. Here's how I would
have liked the outcome to have been different. And I
always have a chance in life to make that happen.
I could reroute the finish line that kind of thing.
So even in the hospital, Kate, and I know you
were you and Jeremy were so sweet to come and

(33:00):
see me in the er, they had to do what
was called a reduction on my arm and kind of
you know, change, pull it out and align and realign
the bones. And I knew it was gonna hurt, and
so I said, my god, Danna, if you have ever
learned to do hypnosis with others, do it on yourself

(33:20):
right now. And I imagined a beach in Hawaii and
the palm trees swaying in the breeze, and the waves
lapping on the shore and the warm sun on my skin.
And that's where I was when they did the reduction,
and it was before they got the morphine in me.

(33:41):
So it was self hypnosis. And so you can apply
hypnosis to so many things to help people get in
a state of full absorption and to revision how they
want to, whether it's a problem, a challenge, or a
new opportunity. They're facing. They can see that for themselves

(34:03):
in a hypnotic trance. I also like EMDR, which is
another approach eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. I like to
integrate that with hypnosis. I mean, we could go on
forever about these mind body experiential approaches to treatment that
help a person be in the experience so they can

(34:24):
change it. Even if we're sitting on the couch right now,
we could float back to any experience and revision it
in a way that's more fruitful and productive that we
could keep going with it, even change the course of history.
You know, if I, for example, had a trauma that
I faced in the past, I can reconstruct it in
a way that helps me move forward, and experiential therapies

(34:47):
like hypnosis or MDR and others help me do that.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
And there's not that many psychologists that use hypnosis in
their practices right.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Well, I like to think that we can get that
number growing. I and I'm going to do my best
to to try to bring in more psychologists or therapists,
you know, clinical social workers, counselors who can learn hypnosis
because it is so powerful.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
When did you discover hypnosis?

Speaker 1 (35:26):
I realized that we go into kind of a trance
like state so many times a day without even thinking
about it, when we're fully absorbed in what we're doing,
and you know, whether again like I was saying before,
whether we're reading a book or needle pointing or needle

(35:47):
pointing exactly, you're in the zone. And I remember thinking,
you know, gosh, this is such a focused state of
attention where we're fully absorbed. You know, imagine we can
train ourselves to do this, and you know, in moments
where we want to solve a problem or shift our
mindset or mood. And and so I happened to live

(36:11):
in New Jersey at the time, and they had a
very active New Jersey Society of Clinical Hypnosis, and I
went to a meeting to see what it was about,
and they hooked me. They were teaching Ericsonian style hypnosis,
and I, as soon as I could, got trained in
it and then became certified. I went through the training

(36:36):
and education with the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis to
become a clinical hypnotherapist, and then I became a consultant
as well. And I'm actually the president elect for the
American Society of Clinical hypnosis right now. I just found
out a couple of weeks ago that I was elected

(36:57):
to be that. So I feel like, you know, I
I hope that with the team working with me, we
can use or train more people who are out there,
more therapists to learn hypnosis and to use it with
their clients because it actually, in some cases it's a

(37:17):
form of brief therapy. I mean, you don't need fifty
sessions to change your behavior or to improve your performance.
One or two can even do the trick. And it's
a wonderful approach that can be integrated with other therapies
as well. If you're in a hypnotic trance, you can
visualize more clearly, you can learn more deeply, you could

(37:40):
see things in your mind's eye better, and it's just
it's a way to be more in tune with yourself.
And you can integrate that with cognitive behavioral therapy or
other therapies that are out there that even talk therapy.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
So, say you're on a run, right, because I feel
like running also is a time. We have a lot
of runners that listen to this show and you're work
and you're you know, say you're on a long run
and you're in a bit of a trance state, right,
because I feel like when you're long distance running, you're.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
In a trans yes.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
So now if you want to break through something on
your own and kind of really use that trance state
to get in your own thoughts and work through an
issue that you're having, how do you do that? Like,
what's the first step and then second step and third?

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Okay, well I've already answered that question. MVP process. It's
another name for hypnosis. I mean, hypnosis is an integration
of you know, being in a calm, absorbed state, you know, grounded.
That's the mindfulness piece.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
So the first step is recognizing it.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yes, yes, recognizing Okay, I'm hitting my wall. I need
to do something to keep pushing through.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Or you're not hitting your wall and you're just in
that trance state, right, Because I kind of want to
talk about it in the sense of, like, you know,
you're going out for a run and you have something
on your mind that you want to use that run, yes,
to focus on, And that doesn't always mean you're hitting
a wall, like sometimes it's an enjoyable run. Like for me,
I'm mostly going on enjoyable runs.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Let's get real, Yeah, yeah, So as you run, you
just start to kind of pay attention to your breathing,
the cadence of your steps, the almost the rhythm of
your pace, and you just kind of get into that flow.
And they say that, you know, once you're running or

(39:41):
doing anything for fifteen minutes, you can get into that
flow state, ease into it, and then you're just going
and you know, you might hear your heart beating, and
you're just fully grounded in the moment, one step after
the other, and then whatever the problem is, I mean,

(40:02):
your mind is thinking more clearly, and believe it or
not as we run, because we have to pay attention
to where we're going. They call that cognitive load. I
mean you have to kind of where's my next step.
I don't want to, you know, fall into a crevice
or anything. You're paying attention without realizing it to keep going.

(40:25):
And because you're kind of in the zone, absorbed in
the run, you're not overthinking things. You're not ruminating, as
the term is. You know, we all talk about, oh gosh,
I overthink, you know, I wake up at two in
the morning and my mind is trying to solve all
the problems of the world, and I just want to
go to sleep. When you're running, you know, that kind

(40:47):
of goes away and it allows you to access a
part of yourself below conscious awareness, and things just bubble
up to the surface. You know, ideas that maybe had
been suppressed, or thoughts, insights, sensations, they just come to mind.
And I think that is why when you do your
running interviews, people are more vulnerable, able to open up more,

(41:12):
you know, or be comfortable with their vulnerability. You're not
looking at them eye to eye like we are. Now
you're side by side, so they feel comfortable and let's
FeAs it. I mean, I love evolutionary psychology. So much
of what we do is rooted in, you know, the
dawn of human civilization. You know, when we were living

(41:32):
in keeves with with saber tooth tigers oring outside. I mean,
the way we bonded with each other was by walking together,
by running together, by traveling together, moving side by side together.
So there's hunting exactly, you know, So it brings out
that that primal bonding, I think, and you know, I

(41:54):
always think of why are those running interviews so powerful?
I mean, why are running groups taking off by storm?
Why are they you know, even if they're decades old.
Like I think of the New York road Runners, I mean,
they have just multiplied exponentially in recent years. It's because

(42:14):
when we run, we can bond with whoever's next to
us and talk about I mean, surprise ourselves by how
much we open up, even with strangers. And so there's
something about running. The dopamine, the serotonin, you know, just
the blood flow, even that loosens us up and we're

(42:38):
in flow. And when you're in flow, you're not overthinking things,
they're just letting go. And so it's very powerful. I
think you're onto something, Kate.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, And you know, I've been doing the Running Interview
show for almost three years now, and I have definitely noticed,
with not only guests but myself that you see these
psychological breakthroughs that happen when people are moving their bodies.
And it's funny, but when I show up sometimes to
when I wake up sometimes for a day, right because
I'm doing some often six interviews in a week, and

(43:10):
there's days where I wake up and I'm just like,
I don't really want to go for a run right now.
And not only do I not want to go for
a run, but I don't want to have to do
it with somebody else and guide the conversation and make
sure they're feeling great, right, because that is what a
lot of what I do. Right. I show up for
people while running and I listen to their story. But
what I've found with the act of running for myself

(43:31):
and also for my guests is by doing it, I
actually automatically my energy shifts and I get into a
great state of mind. And even if I wake up
and I'm not feeling it that morning, as soon as
I start running, in the act of running, my mood

(43:51):
shifts and my energy shifts.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah yeah, And I mean yeah, there's the dopamine surge
and serotonin. I mean, we're calmer, We're just more at
peace with ourselves, and it feels good to move. We
are meant to move. We've got two legs, two arms.
We're meant to move. We're not meant to sit all day.

(44:15):
And I mean, they say, I don't know so much
about running, but walking alone is in one study that
said if you go for a walk and we're trying
to you know, process or sort through some problem you're facing,
it's it's can be just as effective as cognitive behavioral
therapy or art therapy, or just taking a walk. Imagine running, Yeah,

(44:40):
you know where you're speeding things up a little bit
and there's nothing more freeing, liberating than than moving.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
One of the most common things that people say to
me after run doing one of my running interviews is
are you sure we got it all? And I think
it's so funny because somebody that's interviewing them, I know
kind of everything that they said during the interview, and
I'm thinking to myself, well, we just ran for an hour, like,
trust me, we got the full story. But I think
it's so funny because it is one of the most
common commonality things that people say to me after a run.

(45:14):
And I think it's because exactly what you're saying. It's
people almost forget what they say during a run. And
of course I know, as the interviewer we got the
full story. But what is that phenomenon? Why do people
forget what they say?

Speaker 1 (45:24):
It's precisely what we've been talking about. Kay, we're in
the zone. And when you're in the zone, and I
like to bring it back to hypnosis, that is an
example of a trance like state. We are speaking from
that level of awareness below consciousness. It's just bubbling up
from deep within. We forget what we say. We're not,

(45:48):
you know, calculating what we say. It just flows. The
words are flowing out, just like we're flowing in the
zone as we run.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
And so.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
I imagine that, you know, just like me, the people
that you interview, I'm going to forget what I'm saying.
I don't know what I've said. I'll be probably surprised
when I watch later and they're feeling that too, that
what did I I mean? It just flows out, and
you know that you are locked into a conversation, that

(46:22):
you are in the zone. When you're not calculating the words,
You're not you know what do I say next? It
just comes and and you can tell just by you know,
the look, the ease with which you're conversing, and and
how new topics come up. You know you're pulling from

(46:44):
the thread of the previous one. It just flows. We
can be in the zone in a conversation, just as
we can be in the zone, you know, if we're
a tennis player serving the ball. That's why hypnosis is
so powerful, because we can access that state anytime we
want and use it in those moments that H would

(47:08):
be helpful, Like if I have an anger management problem,
if I learn self hypnosis, the next time I feel
like flying off the handle or I can't beat that
impulse to lose control and shout up my little kids
and scare them or whatever.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
You know.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
I think parents always have those moments at times, and
great if they don't, you know, learning self hypnosis or H.
You know, these experiential or experiential approaches to therapy can
can help someone in that moment to respond differently to

(47:44):
anger or impatience or whatever it is. So so I
don't know if that answer did I answer that question?

Speaker 2 (47:52):
You know? And I it does answer my question. And
I also want to say, you know, when I hear
the d term hypnosis, and when a lot of people
hear the term hypnosis, they think woo woo, like what
is that? You know, crazy town? So what do people
get wrong about hypnosis?

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Hypnosis is a natural state that we we go in
multiple times a day, and it is not something you
know from left field. Maybe we should change the name.
That's why I like MVP, you know, the MVP process.
I mean, that's really what it is. It's a combination

(48:38):
of mindfulness and visualization. And when I say the visualization
doesn't have to be just seeing things, it could be
you know the smell of your mom's brownies when you
were twelve years old, how that always made you feel like, Oh,
I mean it could be any kind of sensation.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
And also positive self talk coaching, setting expectations for yourself.
You know, respond differently in a new pattern that is
more productive and effective. And you know that that makes
sense or can be adapted to you know where you
are today in a more productive way.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
So, now, what are we seeing when we're on a
cruise ship and there's a hypnotist on stage right or
whatever wherever we are when we see a hypnist still
on stage, maybe in middle school or you know, when
they bring in bring in somebody like that, what are
we seeing when people become a car on stage? Do
you believe that? Could you currently? Could you right now
hypnotize me to make me become a car? And you know,

(49:35):
look like I'm driving the wheel and saying room room, like,
what are we seeing?

Speaker 1 (49:39):
I if we had time, I maybe I could, but
I won't. I think it depends. There are some stage
hypnotists who really know what they're doing. But then hypnosis
is used for entertainment. You know, you're just unlocking something
within a person that helps free their inhibitions. And but

(50:02):
keep in mind that person is always in control. Hypnosis
does not take control away from people. And I think
that's the biggest fallacy about it, that if I am hypnotized,
I'm going to lose control. That is not correct. You
are always in control, and so my hunches. There might
be a lot of stage hypnotists who have actors or

(50:24):
actresses planet in the audience. I mean, we see movies
about that all the time. Uh, you know that like
their daughters out there and raises her hand to volunteer,
and those you know, has a whole act planned once
she gets up on that stage. But uh, you know,
hypnosis does not rob people of control. It's just a natural,

(50:45):
uh state that we can all go into to access,
you know, our deeper higher in ourselves. As woo woo
as that sounds, I mean, isn't that though, you know,
one of the goals in life to understand ourselves more clearly.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Yeah, And you know, I've interviewed a handful of professional athletes.
I've interviewed Gabby Thomas, and Ny McLaughlin, Grant Holloway. Those
are all tracks, you know, gold medalist olympians that are
are runners and one of the things that they all
talk about is visualization. And I know you've talked about
visualization as it comes to hypnosis and you know, getting

(51:23):
into trans like state when you're running. So explain to
us what visualization is in terms of performance for people
at that level. And then also, I know you work
with retired athletes and CEOs executives, right, and I'm sure
there's things that they get wrong about visualization that you

(51:43):
have to recoach. So talk to us about visualization and
what people get wrong about it.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Well, I guess the first thing that comes to mind
is what people can get right about visualism. You know,
I find that I could work with a golfer and
even though I myself am not a golfer. Okay, what's
that movie with the happy Place? Yeah, Happy Gilmore or

(52:12):
what is it? And Adam Sandler The Happy Gilmore in
part two just came out and you know, so everybody's like, oh, well,
I'm going to use hypnosis to go to my happy
place and that's awesome. You know, if we could all
whether we're a CEO of a big company or just
running a mile. You know, if we are going through

(52:35):
a tough period, if we can shift to whatever our
happy place is certainly gonna help shift our mood. I mean,
if you can visualize, you know, a place that's comfortable, safe, peaceful, secure,
that's going to impact your mood. And mood impacts behavior.
Behavior impacts mood and impacts what we think. It's all related.

(52:58):
You know, you can you can shift in the moment
to be more effective, more productive. So that's something you
know that hypnosis can do for whether you're an executive
or an athlete, you can change shift how you are
in the moment, you know, to to be more productive yea,

(53:19):
and to.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Help yourself get through hard things, right, Because when I
talked to Gabby Thomas, She's like, when I was compete,
I forget her race. But when she was, you know,
running in the Olympics and got her gold medal, the
only thing she was thinking about was crossing that finish line, right.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Which, so that's another point that I want to make Kate.
One of the most powerful things we could do with
visualization is to imagine the impact of what we're trying
to accomplish. So if I'm a tennis player, you know,
it's not going to help me much to And this
is where visualization can get can be wrong. Like if

(53:55):
I'm thinking, okay, I want to visualize my muscles relaxing
inside me, or I want to visualize that, you know,
I'm standing in that perfect ninety degree angle or whatever
with my feet in the ground, that kind of visualization
is not going to help as much as especially for
elite athletes, as much as imagining the outcome or the

(54:18):
impact of what we're doing. So if I'm a tennis
player and I'm serving, I want to see where that
ball is going to land. I want to visualize the
trajectory of the ball through space, you know, I want
to imagine the sound of that ball hitting that tennis
racket in just the right place. That kind of visualization

(54:38):
is going to free up my body to do what
it knows how to do.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
And I like that you said to do what it
knows how to do, because another commonality that I found
with every single professional athlete that I have done an
interview with, a running interview show video with is that
they don't get nervous for the race because they know
that that's the cherry on top, right. They've put in
the work and now they're ready to compete.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, yeah, and that's it. That that's the mean theme.
I think free up your body to do what it
knows how to do. And the way to do that
is to visualize the outcome. That's why imagining that finish
line freeze up the runner, to allow the body to
just go at a pace even faster than you thought

(55:25):
you could handle. That's why a golfer, I mean even
yesterday we have that little miniature golf thing outside. I
don't know how to golf, but if I stand there
and I visualize the the alignment of that of you know,
where I'm hitting the ball, seeing that ball go in
the hole. Sometimes I get a hole in one and

(55:46):
I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just visualizing
the ball going into the hole and being aligned with
that trajectory. That kind of visualization seeing the outcome of
what you're doing is so powerful, and you could apply
it to even you know, I know you keep saying,
what about CEOs, What do they have in common with
athletes or anybody in the workplace. If you're standing up

(56:07):
there trying to present your ideas to the board or
you know, to the people sitting at the table at
a meeting, if you can think of a visualize the
impact you want to have, you know, with what you're saying,
the value of what you're saying, If you want to
see smiles on their faces, or you want to see
them lean in and you know, open their eyes wide

(56:30):
or curious to hear what you have to offer. If
you're visualizing that impact, those words are going to flow
out and you're going to find that you're smiling, you're
leaning in, you're curious about what's going to come out
of your mouth too, and you're all mirroring each other.
So that visualizing the impact is I think the most

(56:54):
powerful lesson whether you're an athlete or a leader, or
in the workplace or a school teacher, whatever, visualizing the
results of what you're doing, seeing that it helps you
even in the moment, to get there right. So this
podcast is called post friend high. It's all about the

(57:15):
phenomena of what happens after we work out right and
after we move our bodies. And most people think that
post friend high is just the endorphins that our body
is feeling and experiencing. But is that actually true or
is something else happening. I think there's dopamine surges, there's endorphins.

(57:39):
There's also I mean the calmness, the piece of we
just ran, we just finished something meaningful, we just moved.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
I think we did something hard.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
We did something hard, And I think that's another reason
why you know, the running interviews before works so well,
because you're both facing kind of adversity to again other.
You're pushing yourselves. There's there's that kind of bond too.
So we just did it, you know, it's like we
just crawled across the finish line together. Now we're sitting
down on enjoying, reaping the joy of finishing something connected together.

(58:19):
I think that's supposed to run high too.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
There are a lot of drugs that can emulate that
post run high, that dopamine and that endorphin rush feeling.
What are your thoughts on those types of medications.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Okay, that's a that's a big question. I have some
mentors over the years, psychologists who are master clinicians, and
they've impacted me pretty strongly. Uh, you know, one in
particular as a mantraus skills not pills.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
So no, addall, Well, hold on, I mean.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
I really believe that, you know, medication has saved lives,
no doubt. If I were severely depressed and had a
hard time getting out of bed each day, you know.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
And.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
My psychiatrist is able to prescribe something that will prevent
suicidal thoughts or you know, help me feel hope again. Okay,
those are kind of severe, more extreme situations. I think
in normal life that the first thing to do is
to develop, to develop the skills to manage shifting our moods,

(59:36):
or to manage overthinking, or to manage you know, anger
or whatever it is. I mean, we're human beings and
we always have that capacity to build the skills first.
Pills as a last resort. So I believe if honestly,

(59:57):
we go into a doctor's office and say, oh, I'm
feeling low or down or anxious, and that doctor pulls
out a prescription pad before asking, hey do you exercise?
Do you you know, move around? You know, what do
you do in life that gives you meaning and purpose?

(01:00:19):
And you know, if that doctor is prescribing pills before
asking those essential questions. There's so much research out there
to show that you know, running or other exercise alone
is just as effective, if not more so, than any
anti anxiety or anti in any anti anxiety medication or
antidepressant on the marketplace. So it's so important to try

(01:00:46):
to build the skills first and to get the help
to do that, because that's what performance psychology is all about.
There are best practices, there are cutting edge techniques. There,
there's so much research to show how to build every
skill under the sun, and to try that first, unless,
of course, you know you're in a severe, extreme distress,

(01:01:11):
then okay, then medication can save lives. So self medicate
first and then think about, well, what comes by building
the skills to do that? Yes, and we can all learn.
That's why I love hypnosis so much. We can learn
self hypnosis. We can learn how to manage a reduction

(01:01:33):
in an er in wherever I was, I don't know,
somewhere in New York City, mile twelve, you know, without
the morphine.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
You know, say a twelve year old or thirteen year
old goes to a psychiatrist and they're struggling, struggling with
depression or ADHD. What are you saying to their parents
that they should do first? Right, And let's start with depression,
because that's one of the most common things that adolescents

(01:02:01):
struggle with.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
You know, I think every every kid's different. And you know,
if I talk to the parents, I would first ask them,
what have you tried so far? You know, I try
to understand, you know, tell me what you've done so
far to help with this challenge you're facing. What is
your kid done? And I would explore, you know, what

(01:02:30):
is that kid doing to move in their life? You know,
I again, We're meant to move, We're meant to walk,
We're meant to run, We're meant to get outside, commune
with nature. Nature is one of the things that uplifts
our spirits. What's the what about the kids' social connections?
Does he have friends? What are the things that child

(01:02:54):
is doing to channel their energy? Do they have some
hobby or passion or something they enjoy that gets them moving,
that gets them connected to other people, that helps them
feel meaning and purpose in life. I wouldn't want to
explore that first, you know, And that's huge. That is

(01:03:15):
huge that a child even can play, can connect with friends,
can move around, can explore, can be curious, can discover
the world. That's what childhood is all about to learn
and grow. I would want to make sure that the
child has those outlets.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
And it's interesting that it all comes back to movement, right,
whether it's physical, mental, or social, just the act of moving.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Yeah, I can't remember what country it is, like maybe Denmark.
They would not allow kids to have standardized tests until
they were thirteen years old and instead, you know, spend
so much of school time out in the playground. You know,
we learn by exploring, by doing, by moving, by being

(01:04:06):
connected to whether it's nature or you know, something that
we could play with and and explore and and that's
that's how we learn and grow. And if that's taken
away from us or we're locked into you know, cell
phones and computers and and and and believe me, I
know they have their purpose too. I mean, we can

(01:04:29):
do so many things with the power of you know,
digital technology, certainly, and however, if we use it too much,
you know, it's affecting our brains, it's changing our personalities
and and and it's it's preventing all the ways you know,
I mentioned evolutionary psychology. Before our bodies were meant to

(01:04:53):
move and and and if we don't do that, we're
going to be depressed. I know that if if if
I go a couple days without moving and I've had
knee surgery too, and you know sometimes you feel it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
You feel it, yeah, And there's also there's something interesting
to me about social media where it's almost like you
are socially connecting, right, because you go on your phone
and you scroll and you see all these people doing
all sorts of things, right, and social media tends to
make them look glamorous, are so fun or you know,

(01:05:30):
makes you have that fomo fear of missing out right.
As a psychologist, you know that understands the importance of
being social and knowing what and seeing what people are
up to. Right. How is that kind of over communication
and over seeing people doing different things while we're scrolling

(01:05:51):
on our phones affecting us?

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Well, I mean it affects us in a number of
different ways.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
One, I think seeing what everyone else is doing, and
you know, feeling that our self worth is determined by
how many likes we get, not to mention the dopamine
surge we get every time we see the number of
likes growing. It's addictive. It's addictive, and I mean, I
know we have apps on our phone to show us

(01:06:22):
how much screen time we're using in a typical week.
It's kind of scary sometimes when you see, you know,
just the hours and hours that people are spending on
their phones, and it is addictive.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Yeah, And I think about it a lot for younger kids, right,
because it's I mean, I've been in middle school, I've
been in high school. It was hard enough pre social
media being in middle school saying oh, so and so
are friends and they're doing all these things after school
and I'm not part of it, right, And then it's
a whole other thing where then you're scrolling on Instagram
as a thirteen year old in your seeing all these
people again doing things that you're not a part of,

(01:07:04):
you know. So it's like it's already happening naturally, right,
you see it in school. There's that comparison, there's that
feeling of being left out, and that's the thing that's
happened for years in generations. But then social media amplifies
it in such a big way.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
You know. And I think it kind of circles back
to what we were just saying, keiate that you know,
we we you know, especially if you're young and you know,
without all those years of experience and trial and error
and learning from mistakes and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Understanding that it's okay to be left out right exactly
comfortable in your own skin.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
You don't realize that you know yet when it's happening
for the first few times and you start to, you know,
define who you are based on what you're seeing on
social media and defining self worth, and yeah, I have to.
I have to be like that in order for people
to love me or like me, or to be accepted

(01:08:00):
this world. And a lot of times, I mean, perfection
is not attainable. We are human and perfect at best,
and yet what we see on social media looks so perfect,
and so there's this sort of mirage that you know,
kids might be reaching for that is elusive. And yeah,

(01:08:25):
I honestly feel that as hard as it is, because
it is addictive. I mean, you can't help it. We
check our emails, no matter how old we are. Once
you get connected to a phone, if you leave the
house without it, it's like you left your arm behind
or something. Everybody's had that kind of experience, but it's freeing.

(01:08:48):
And I've heard a lot of families sometimes do this,
to put the phone in a box under a bed
or something for the weekend, and just to live life
without it, you know, to go outside and run, to
hike in the woods, to absorb nature, to feel the
simple pleasures of living, being grounded in the moment without

(01:09:12):
so coming to the urge to see, you know, what
the next post is, or how many likes, or getting
that dopamine surge from a little box. We can get
that from so many other sources.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
As somebody that's been practicing for over thirty years as
a psychologist, you've seen life pre social media and during
social media, right, so you've seen cases of people now
kind of coming in probably because of the effects largely
of the phone, especially young kids would be yeah, yeah,
So what is the biggest change that you've seen since

(01:09:55):
the rise of social media as far as like what
people are coming into you or help with.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Well, I think it's the same issues. You know, anxiety, depression, trauma,
you know, some experiences that may still live with them
and haunt them in some way that they want to
process or sort through so they can move on in life.
And I think that in so many ways, social media

(01:10:27):
the phone can numb ourselves. We can numb ourselves to
dealing with those issues. I mean, it's not one of
my mentors says, it's not depression that happens to us,
it's life that happens to us. And if we're spending
life scrolling, you know, how are we going to build

(01:10:48):
the skills to deal with problems and challenges that occur
every day? And yeah, life is hard, it is rough,
and god, you know, Kate, when I think of people
living in wartorn countries and how lucky we are, you
know that we can go outside and chances are you

(01:11:11):
know we're gonna be okay. I mean, if we can
just get out and enjoy nature, enjoy connecting with friends,
enjoy having conversations, enjoy solving problems without the help of

(01:11:31):
you know, a computer, just to feel the satisfaction of
figuring out things on our own. We have the capacity
to do that. Our minds and bodies can work together
to help us get the results and feel that incredible
satisfaction and high from having crossed the finish line on

(01:11:51):
our own. I cannot cross the finish line scrolling on
my phone.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Yeah, And you know what's kind of funny, but I
had somebody say this to me the other day. One
of our family members They said that they enjoy going
camping in the mountains because it reminds them of how
insignificant they are, right, just because you're this small speck
of a person in this vast mountain range, right, and
there's so much nature and life going on around you.

(01:12:18):
And while I don't want to be reminded that we're insignificant,
because of course our lives are significant, I think it
is so important to be put into that perspective sometimes
of being like, you know, my problems feel so big, right,
and then you get into the world and you realize
my problems aren't that big, right. What is that feeling

(01:12:41):
that people experience when they're out in nature and they say, oh,
I am reminded of how insignificant I am.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Yeah, yeah, I mean Nature's bigger than us. And there's
something you know, no matter what religion you might be,
or you know, whether you believe in God or not,
we all have those moments where there's a force bigger
than us moving through us. And I think you feel

(01:13:07):
that in nature, nature's a force or outdoors, you know,
that's how we began outside under the starry night, you know,
with whatever the equivalent of crickets chirpping, we're feeling the breeze,
the seeing the clouds. I mean, there's something about that

(01:13:27):
keat that no drug can give us. That's how we
began and to return to that. We have the power
to do that every day, to go out there. I
mean even there's all this research on you know, how
cities need parks. We need those parks. We need to
commune with nature, we need to see trees. There's research

(01:13:48):
on how if we're in a hospital room, you know,
recovering from something, if there's a window in that room
and there's a much more than a window, but a
tree outside in the courtyard, the days that we're in
the hospital are reduced. You know, there is something about
connection with nature and connection with people that is far

(01:14:10):
more powerful than any medication. And so when you are
out there camping, yes, we are just part of something
bigger than us. I don't know if that means we're insignificant,
but you know, it's it's it's But.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
I liked hearing that because it was almost like it's
kind of like art moves you write, words can move you.
And I liked when he said that because I'm like, yeah,
and as much as I again we are not insignificant,
but I do like how you reworded it as But
nature is so much bigger than us, right, And sometimes
it's important to step into those settings because I think,
you know, there's so many just different instances where you

(01:14:48):
can feel like your problems are so big and there's
all these things weighing you down. And then it's like
you go into the world and you realize, you know,
I'm somebody that lives in New York City, right, there's
people that are in war what did you say, war?

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
War torn countries.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
We're torn countries, right. It's like our problems could be worse.
Get outside, you know, And my favorite thing about talking
to you is as a psychologist that sees and hears
about such a vast range of issues that people are having,
right from extremely traumatizing situations, people passing away, dealing with
extreme levels of grief, extreme levels of depression, anxiety. Like,

(01:15:27):
there's so many issues that we can face mentally. But
just by getting outside and moving your body and connecting
with people and connecting with people and yourself in a
deeper way that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
Can cure you. Absolutely, yeah, Kate, And I think you
know it helps us to circle back to where we began.
You know, we were talking about running being in the zone.
That is when there's a force bigger than us going
through us. And we can make that happen anytime we
want by doing what we love, whether it's painting or writing,

(01:16:02):
or running, or playing tennis or standing up in front
of a crowd, you know, pouring our hearts out about
what we're passionate about and feel has meaning or purpose,
you know, connecting with people, building communities. We are in
the zone in those moments and if we you know,

(01:16:23):
people can find those moments in their lives and you know,
we can't help it. It's part of being human, you know.
But just to you know, have two moments like that
in the morning, two moments like that in the afternoon,
two moments like that in the evening. That is a meaningful,
purposeful life. Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
Yeah, And if it was easy, it wouldn't be worth it, right,
And I wanted to circle back as we kind of
wrap up here, but you know, you broke your arm
and had to get surgery during your last New York
City marathon, and about two weeks later, you were already
talking about all the races that you were signing up
for right. So I also think it's just While it's
important to get outside and move your body, as simple
as that may be, it's also important to challenge yourself

(01:17:04):
to do hard things. And you now have coming up
in the next several months, you're going to be doing
the Berlin Marathon, maybe the Chicago.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Marathith to the Chicago Marathon and the New York Marathon.
Everybody keeps telling me I got a redemption journey to
New York again. I'll be honest, I don't know if
my legs are capable of doing three marathon. Three marathons
and then I think it's five or six weeks the
way they fall schedule wise, But I'm going to do

(01:17:32):
the first one and go all out. That's Berlin, and
then see how I feel for Chicago, and if I
have to walk half of it, I'll walk half of it.
And then two weeks later is New York again. As
you get older, legs aren't what they used to be.
But if I have to walk the New York Marathon,
I will. I just want to be a part of
the experience and to feel what it's like to cross

(01:17:54):
that finish line that I didn't get to this year.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Okay, one of the things that I want to ask
you as your daughter in law is, you know, I
know you've lived a pretty interesting life. Right in high school,
you lived in Brazil for a bit, you speak like
six languages. What made you want to go into psychology?

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
I think everything boils down to what motivates people across cultures.
Everything boils down to why do we behave as we do?
And I just wanted to help learn how to help
people help themselves, you know. I think living overseas, learning
from other cultures, seeing the United States from across the oceans,

(01:18:34):
you know, kind of looking at our own country and
cultures from a different angle, it just really inspired me
to learn how people push through adversity, how they face it.
You and you know, your adversity is different from my adversity,
but that's really what we're all going through in life.

(01:18:56):
Life is not easy, you know, and and learning from
other people cultures how you face adversity it inspired me
to be a psychologist so I could help people help themselves.
And I find that, you know, no matter who I'm
working with, I learn just as much, if not more,
from them than they could ever learn from me. I

(01:19:18):
think it's just you know, partly establishing that connection, you know,
finding that place where they can help themselves and feel
meaning purpose. That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
So you had a very we talked about social media.
You had a very viral clip that went off two
years ago when you were running the New York City
Marathon where you ran over to Jeremy, my husband, your son,
and you said, Jeremy, how does my how does my
lipstick look? My nabling super stay maddic? Is it still on?
And I think that was at the twenty two mile mark,
and guys, trust that that lipstick was still on. It
really doesn't come off even after your show or any

(01:19:51):
and all the things it could make if you're probably
an entire week. That's how much lipsticks days.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
Are more than one marathon for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
But what was it like for you as a psychologist
seeing that reaction, Like what did that show to you
about the positive side of social media?

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
You know, I was blown away, Kate. I think it
was humbling to you know, I have I like to think,
you know, as any other person, we all have our
share of accomplishments in life. And then to see that
that like two second thing reached more people than anything
I've ever done that. I like to think maybe has

(01:20:30):
more meaning than wearing lipstick. I was blown away.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
More meaning than wearing lipstick or being in a viral
clip online. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
Yeah, I just was blown away by how some two
second thing can have such an impact on the power
of social media. I think I didn't realize until that
viral clip how powerful it is. And I started reading
through some of the comments and there were my god,
there were a couple that made me cry. I just

(01:20:59):
couldn't believe that, like two seconds can impact someone I've
never met. I mean, one guy I think commented about
when Jeremy screamed mom, mom, how it reminded him of
when his mother was being buried and they were putting
her coffin into the ground and he was screaming mom,
mom with the same tone, the same intensity. I just

(01:21:20):
burst into tears. I couldn't believe how some two second
thing with you know was still fresh, my lipstick is
still still going strong, you know, and Jeremy's screaming mom mom,
how that could touch people in so many different ways.
It was an education for me.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
Yeah, and even even you know, that was two years ago,
but even this past marathon, we had posted obviously, we
posted a video about you, you know, after after the
marathon to say, you know, you didn't you didn't finish
this marathon where you fell at mile twelve. You got hurt,
but you're already talking about the next marathons that you're
gonna run, So you're gonna come back stronger or walk him,
you know what. That's that's a common ex experience that

(01:22:00):
so many athletes have, right Like when I tore my ACL,
I had to go through a year of basically not
even being able to walk or run, and all I
could think about was coming back stronger, right So I
think that just shows the grit that people have and
the urge to come back stronger and be able to
do what they wants did And obviously there's people that
get injured and can't do what they want did and
they come back mentally stronger in a different way.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
That's when you reroute and change the finish line and
it's a different story.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
It's a different story. And Jordanltz, the guy that we
just had on you were talking about a dcent fit.
But you know that was interesting too because you touched
people there in a way that you know, I had
the people I had, the people at the medical tent
that were messaging me on Instagram saying, oh my gosh,

(01:22:45):
like that was your mother in law, Like I can't
believe it, Like I was the one that helped her
at the medical tent, or I was the one that
carried her out of the race. So it is interesting
how these micro interactions can really affect people in a
bigger way, and then you use social media to amplify it,
and all of a sudd you know, we had Megan
reach out right and ye.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
The story of Megan, who now we're best buddies emailing
each other. She got hurt at mile twelve too, she
was further away from a medical tent, so her story
was a little more excruciatingly painful and longer. But we're
gonna both run the Berlin Marathon next door. I haven't.
We've talked with each other on the phone, and you

(01:23:22):
know we're already I'm going to tell her what hotel
we're staying at. So I'd made a new friend from this.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
Let's tell the story of Megan really quickly. So we
post a video of Dana running the New York City
Marathon getting injured at mile twelve, then being at the
hospital afterwards and having to get surgery. I then get
an email the next day from a woman named Megan
who reaches out and says, Kate, I'm so sorry to
hear about your mother in law. Funny story, but I
actually also got injured during the New York City Marathon

(01:23:49):
around mile twelve and have had to have surgery. And
you know more about what happened to her medically than
I do. But she was like, the crazy coincidence here
is that you know, during the last spring, I was
running the Boston Marathon with my daughter and Dana, your
mother in law actually happened to be right next to
us during the Boston Marathon, and we have a picture

(01:24:11):
to show it, and the picture is you in front
of her, her daughter and her running running the Boston Marathon.
And she actually has that photo framed in her house.
And it was just crazy, a crazy coincidence that, you know,
x months later, at the New York City Marathon the
same year, you and her got injured at that same spot.
So it's this weird kis myth that happened that ended

(01:24:31):
an injury, But you two both have that same mentality
of coming back stronger, and she was talking about all
the marathons that she's now signing up for. And now
you guys are running the Berlin Marathon together and I'm
sure not together, but you're both running it and I'm
sure you'll meet up.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
Oh absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
But it also just went to show that it puts
things into perspective, right, because it also put things into
perspective when we were at the hospital with you and
you it literally felt like a graz Anatomy episode where
all these people are being rolled into the hospital on
stretcher with bandages on their head and there, you know,
their race bibs on their stomachs mile twelve.

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
I hope they, you know, do something about mile twelve
next year because it got a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:25:14):
Not just mile twelve, right, it's the entire marathon. And
it just goes to show that, like, you're not alone
in the experiences that you're having. Even if you feel
like the worst thing ever has happened to you, just
know that there's other people experiencing maybe the exact same.

Speaker 1 (01:25:27):
Thing, right, Absolutely, Kate, Yes, yes, we're not alone.

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
We're not alone.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
We are never alone.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
And was that nice for you to be able to
connect with Megan.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
Oh gosh, yes, yeah, and we've done countless emails back
and forth since then. Phone call and yeah yeah, talked
on the phone. I can hardly wait to meet her
in person. But and maybe it'll be at the Berlin Marathon.
We'll see. But just amazing how connections can arise from social.

Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
Media and mysterious ways.

Speaker 1 (01:25:59):
Oh yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
Well let's leave everybody with one final piece of advice
from you psychologist, doctor Dana Libo, performance coach, give us
one piece of advice that you want everybody to to
take away from this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
Well, I you know, I said this even in the
running interview we did. I do believe in KFG. You know,
keep again, whatever you want the f to stand, you can.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
Curse on this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
Okay, keep fucking going. Uh, just just that's one piece.
And when you need to press the pause button, unrest
and recover, allow yourself that as well, you know, but
don't be two mired in one and not the other.

(01:26:45):
Find that sweet spot, you know, keep going, rest, recover,
keep going, rest, recover, but find your sweet spot. And also, uh,
you know, everyone has meaning purpose, Keep running towards that,
you know, whatever it is for you, find your meaning,

(01:27:07):
find your purpose if you don't have it already, but
you probably do and know what that is. Keep going,
keep going for that, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
Just keep moving. And you know, I ask people like
you said, I ask people in every single one of
my running interviews, what is a quoter model that you
live by? And some people think it's catchy and you know,
they're catchy whatever the word is. And some people think it's,
you know, maybe like a lame question, but I actually
love the question because you never know what people are
going to say, and it's always the short quotes that

(01:27:37):
always stand out to me. It's not the elaborate quotes,
although you know, you get a lot of people that
quote the man in the Arenal quote, which I always
do love, But things like KFG, these simple mantras that
we can replan our head are the important ones, right,
And it's the ones that stick with us in those
hard moments, and the ones that have always stood out
to me are ones like you said, KFG, keep fucking going.

(01:27:59):
There's another one, Nicholas Thomson. We mentioned him in this episode,
but his is right foot, left foot, right foot left
foh simple. And then the one that I always think
about is you can't be one hundred percent all of
the time. And a big time runner said that to me,
and that's always been my favorite quote because I think
as athletes and as runners and as people that value
working out, we hate those moments where we have to

(01:28:20):
turn it off right and the foot can't be on
the gas right, the gas pedal the entire time. But
it's important to remember that you can't be one hundred
percent all of the time, and you have to have
moments where you reset. But then you have to have
moments too where you decide, Okay, I've reset, and now
I have to just keep moving.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
Yeah, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
Said it, Keate, So keep keep moving and whatever you
can do to help the world keep moving. I'm one
hundred percent behind you, and we all are well.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
Thank you so much Data for being on our podcast today.
I'm feeling good. I hope your post run high absolutely
has kicked into year by.

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
Now, definitely, and I think it's gonna it's gonna last
for some time.

Speaker 2 (01:29:04):
Kate.

Speaker 1 (01:29:05):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
We are currently in Palm Springs, California. We are just
wrapping up a family Christmas trip that we've been on
for four days. Here we come out to cal we've
been coming out to Palm Springs for a few years now.
Then the next year might be a different location, who knows.
But as a reminder, Jeremy and I are in California
for the next you know, several weeks. We're gonna be

(01:29:27):
here till the end of February, and then we're gonna
be in Austin, Texas for a week filming with some
other really cool guests like Dana. But if you guys
have questions for Dana, she might be visiting California in
the next couple of months while we're out here again.

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
Give me an excuse to come back. Kate. I'm so
again honored that I've was invited included in all this
and you know, the whole family first of all, so
thrilled to have you a part of our family now,
and I know it's still new, and we're just so
excited that you're a part of this clan and whatever
we can do to support you along the way, we're here.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
For you, all right. Well, you know one of the
things that we can do to support is, guys, if
you have any questions for Dana coming out of this
episode that we did not answer, please dm me on
Post Run High. We're at Kate Max and we will
write all of your questions down and the next time
we are sitting down with Dana, we will be sure
to answer them. I'm sure there's a lot of questions
that came up to you, and I apologize if I

(01:30:24):
didn't scratch that itch for you during this episode, but
we'll do it next time.

Speaker 1 (01:30:28):
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation Kate.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode
with doctor Dana Libo. I hope you enjoyed our conversation
as much as I know our team did. If you
guys are getting a lot of value out of Post
Run High, please make sure to follow this podcast and
share this episode with somebody who could learn a decent
bit from it. We love you, guys and appreciate you

(01:30:57):
so much, and we will see you next week on
Post Run High. As always, our dms are open any
follow up questions that you have for doctor Dana Libo,
please slide into our dms and ask them, and we're
always open to guest requests, so keep us posted on
what you're thinking and who you'd like to learn from.

Speaker 1 (01:31:17):
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Kate Mackz

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Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Breakfast Club

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Performance Psychologist: Why Your Brain Quits Before Your Body Does