QLS Classic: Babyface (Part 2)

Award-winning singer, songwriter and producer Babyface talks about his early life, the importance of translating his heartbreaks into music and what it was like working with artists like Whitney Houston, Boyz II Men, Toni Braxton and so many more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of course Love Supreme. It's a production of I Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora
Sweet On QLs. We're really excited to bring you a
second part of our exclusive benefew with Kenneth's baby Face epodes.
Let's start in the show. How do you determine? Because
looking at your solo career from you know, tender Lover

(00:22):
was eighty nine, was eighty nine and then uh, don't
forget about lovers, your lovers, and but from that to
then you know, for the cooling you like, which is
my favorite, Like, how did you do video man? How
did you determine? Okay, this is for me and this

(00:43):
is for my artists or or other people I'm producing
for how did you balance that workload? Um? Songs first
and whatever I would write it. I get asked that
question many sense. Why didn't you keep in the road?
Why didn't you keep every little step? Because listen to
who sung it and and listen to the songs so

(01:05):
as became you know, so UM, I think the song
is ultimately find their right homes. And UM, for me,
there are certain songs that I could do and that
I could do well in certain songs I wish I
could have done better, but I couldn't, So I was
honest with myself and gave him away for that reason.
What's an example of a song that you gave away
that you enter the road once? Once I finished and said,

(01:26):
oh man, was it your vocal that just didn't work out?
Or yeah, I just didn't Well, I specifically wrote it
for boys the man, so I was going for that
whole old Philly sound, you know. And uh. And then
when I and then when they started singing it, I was,

(01:46):
you know, because I really almost kept it. But when
they those boys walked in there and started saying, I said,
damn home, it was like, you know, it was clear
that Wow, that moment was clear they they were a
better group than I thought they were. And uh, and
I knew that I would want to work with him again. Question.

(02:09):
How many songs did you work on for the Dangerous
Project for Michael Jackson. I'm here in no. Ten. We
we got called to work with Michael right. We had
just signed Jermaine Jackson on the face and then Michael

(02:37):
heard a little song called word to the Bad and yeah,
R and B distrack. You wrote that Jermaine with Jermaine
Jermine like left ife was on it. Okay, so so
we got called. We got totally forgotten this story. We

(03:00):
when we signed him up. Then we got a call
from the gloved One and wanted to meet us. And
I'm like, I had met I had met Michael, you know,
younger days, but he didn't know that. But so, um
we got the call that, you know, I'd like to
meet with you guys. So he sent a helicopter and

(03:26):
we we we went out to Neverland and uh, we
were like, all right, we gotta go. We can't not go.
I know, we just signed Jermaine, but we can't not go.
This is Michael. And Jermaine was like, this is crazy. Yeah,
he knew we No, this is no. This is my brother.
He's trying to he's purposely whatever. So and uh so

(03:54):
we got to Neverland and uh sat in the living
room waiting for a little bit from Michael. Come out.
Then Michael finally came out. Please meet you guys. How
are you doing? I said great? He says, um, So
I wanted to bring you guys here because I really
wanted to know, you know, if you wanted to do
some work with me and stuff. So I said that's great. Um,

(04:17):
you know, obviously we've been banned for years. Um so Michael,
so what we want to know is that what do
you want from us? Right, because like, you know, what
have you heard from us? What do you want to
what kind of music are you looking for? And he goes, well,
so I really love that thing that um what's that
song that Janit does um rhythm rhythm, so like so ago,

(04:56):
so you know that Jimmy Terry right. I said, yeah,
I know, I know, but I like it. And then
we said so, I said, so what is it of
ours that you like? And he goes, well, I particularly
love that song? Uh a crime, it's no crime. Yeah,

(05:18):
I love the beat. I don't like the beat. I
don't like the words. God. It's like, okay, all right,
all right, but you know me, Mr Positive and you
know you can. I was like, okay, all right. So
that gives us a direction. At least, we no kind
of where to go because it didn't matter. He could
have said our stuff was crap and we would have said,

(05:41):
well we'll make it well uncraffic and uh so we
got the you know, he said, let's go go to
the studio and work. Let's let's put some work together
and and do some studio, put some studio time together.
And so we went out and work. I forget what
the studios we went out to work at. But prior
to that, right after that meeting, we had a we

(06:06):
went up to Lionel Richie's house. Perhaps have to be
friends with Brenda. Ritchie was very good friends with Brendi
Richie and we went over to the house and the
Linel was there and Lionel said, and I'm gonna tell
you something about Michael. He said, he's a nice guy.
But don't get caught. Don't get caught in the web
of you know, all the you know, the charm and

(06:28):
the magic stuff, because you you will be working forever
and never come out with nothing. So just be careful
to not get caught up in that way, because you know,
he's so magical that you be magic out and you
won't even know. So we went in there kind of
with a different attitude when we went to work with them,

(06:49):
because I would see the guys that could be so
hard and stuff like that, and you get in front
of Michael Jackson, maybe suddenly they become little lambs. No
matter how hard you are, you talking to Michael Jackson.
It's it's a whole another story. Michael just he's magical.
So um so we kind of like stay strong because
of that. And so we went in and we started

(07:12):
working on tracks. I think we probably went through three
or four tracks, and he'd come in. He listened to
him nice, love love it, love it. Okay, now you
see that right there? Take this now and want you
to it's beautiful. But now I want you to go
to a place that you've never gone before. Reach inside

(07:34):
and go to a place that you've never gone. We
were like, oh yeah, now' right, we haven't gone far enough.
So we went back and start going further and further.
And then he'd come back and we we fixed up
the track. We like, we know we're there now. We

(07:54):
just playing the track. We hadn't even done the top
lines yet, but we're going for the tracks and stuff like.
So he'd come in and listen, and it's like probably
about the fourth day he was supposed to come by.
Each day he didn't. What't he didn't come back to
the fourth day and then he came in and he
listened to it. I love it. It's great. No, you

(08:17):
can figure out his steps right, beautiful. No, I love this,
I love now. No, this is perfect. But now what
I want you to do is go even deeper, go
to a place that you never go. He's right, What

(08:38):
does that? What does that entail? Is that more patches
in the song? Is it more percussion? You know? It's like,
give me something different, give me something unique, give me
something that you know we haven't heard before, pushing naws,

(09:00):
even the rhythms, that could be anything. So he just
he wasn't completely pulled in yet, and so we we
ultimately did this song called Slave to the Rhythm, and
that's the song that we ended up with it that
we But then he was he was supposed to come
by the studio, wouldn't come by. And then me and
Eli sat down one day we said, you know what,

(09:23):
we've been here a week, he came down. He came
here twice. Out of seven days he came here twice.
We out of here. So we left. We went back
over to another studio for getting he was d We
went to Michael, called l A and said what happened? When?
Where where did you guys go? Eli said, nope, we

(09:45):
got us stuff to do. We can't do it. This this,
this is our song, this is it and uh and
we were done and we pulled out of the project.
So and you were flying with that. We were fine
with it because what we didn't want to be is
those producers that would get caught with one artists and

(10:05):
only have one artists. Our career was built on a
number of artists and had we stopped at one and
just stopped there, then you just hang your flagship on
one and and that's what your Yeah, so we wanted
to always be able to and at that point we
started the label and then you know, Jermaine was pretty
pissed at that particular point. Really you think that's what

(10:27):
was asked, how do you do all this? And then yeah,
well that was I mean that was the thing. Look,
we were we had la face and we were supposed
to be working on our arts at that particular point.
So when you get a call from Michael, we was like,
we're not going to not you know, we gotta do Michael,
and so we we we tried it. We went there,
but we knew we couldn't stay there forever to keep
doing it, and we felt like we were going to

(10:49):
run into that. Um it was it was more of
a thing of thinking Michael, well, maybe we don't, maybe
we don't see the same things, and maybe we're not
the guys for you, so we don't want to go
with this whole process. Did you feel in your heart
of hearts that you had a good song What's Lave? Yeah?
I thought it was pretty good, but I think I

(11:10):
didn't think we got a chance to work it too
to make it the best. You know. Um, I think
that with any artists that you start to work with,
you're gonna go through some songs that aren't great. But
if you get more time with them, then you will
get to that greatness. But you gotta have that time.
You gotta have the time to have the bad songs
in order to have the great songs. So when you
started let face, uh, I mean, I guess it's impossible

(11:35):
for any black entrepreneur to not have thoughts of Motown
in their heads. As an lake course, what's my label
gonna be the new Motown? Um? What were your Well?
I mean, by this point, at least like you Ellie's,
you and l A are are about to separate and

(11:56):
you're about to produce on your own, and he runs
the label like, how did you guys come into an
amicable Um. It was the label became the thing for that.
He had to run run the label. Um we were
Um it was a little little card for him to

(12:16):
keep producing and be a writer and all that and
and actually run the label business. Couldn't really do that.
You have to you have to make a choice. You're
neither gonna be a businessman or you gonna be an artist. Um.
And the truth is is l A was always kind
of the businessman. He was always that was his role,
you know, going way back to the deal. He was
like the guy that made sure everybody everybody got to eat,

(12:40):
going back to his days, you know, like too you
know essence and the deal, living in Indianapolis and making
sure he made some deals with some people at Church's
chicken to make sure they could eat every night. So
it was that was his gig. And uh and he
basically became, you know, the manager of you know, Leface Records. Um,

(13:02):
it was he had to be. He had to make
sure everybody got chicken. But how does that work from
an artists Like when y'all decided which artists would be
that did it? Ever? Did at least say okay, so
this is this group good? In mob? I just want
you to hear. So you know, we were always on
the same page in terms of we never fought in
terms of artists and uh whether something was good or not.

(13:23):
That's where we were always good together, is that, you know,
our taste are very simular, so we kind of would
support eachaln what was your relationship like with without casts?
Because I wasn't around as much without casts, and so
I would kind of see the guys because at that
point I was kind of like doing a lot of
producing out this way and kind of making the l
A connection, so to say. And so you were working

(13:46):
in Los Angeles while he stayed in Atlanta. Yeah, what
was it about Atlanta that attracted or made that the official?
We we were living here in l A. And we
felt like we needed to get out of here in
order to like, you know, be a big fish in
a little see. We tried to start a label here.

(14:09):
Then we would they never know we were here, and
uh Stlanta as Minneapolis or yeah, okay, And so in
going down there, we you know, we we were right
to go there, and uh we got we got very lucky.
You know that the talent came to find us there's
some talent that we lost doubt on. You know, um

(14:29):
who almost didn't get signed to the label or who didn't?
Who did you miss out on? We had an A
and R person that um had got something that we did.
We found out after the fact. I got to make
sure that's true, that the story in fact is true,
because it's sad if it is um but R Kelly

(14:50):
what and they this is bull stuff? So this bull
craps are on So we never got it. We never
got to even hear it. But he did. He did?
You guys do the music together to he you wouldn't
have told you y'all missed out on me. You know
that right in the midday, in the middle of Canbrie.
That's crazy. So okay, one one of your clients that

(15:12):
were particularly curious about, uh who who's done our show before?
H Usher? Raymond Oh Yeah, says one of his career
regrets was the fact that he did not get a
freshly pinned baby faced classic when he first signed to

(15:33):
the label. When when and went so far as to
tell us that can We Talk was initially his song.
To this day, he believes that he believes that um

(15:56):
U Usher came when Usher came. He came out of
time when me and l A were going through this
like Cam and jay Z and Usher came in and
Usher came, He's this bad little kid came and sang
into the road and it's demo and he was bad
its little kids bad um. Bad isn't good or bad

(16:19):
like badass? And uh, I certainly, you know, I thought
he was an amazing kid. He came out of time
with me in l A were like kind of like
had our issues and uh so I kind of like
ended up being out here in l A a a lot um.
I got a call from Quincy Jones two write a

(16:41):
song for Devin Campbell and it's Quincy Jones. I was like,
it's Quincy Jones. So I wrote can we Talk Um?
And did a demo of it. And Eli had heard
the record of thinking Um and he wanted it for
us your but I had already given it two uh

(17:03):
to Tevin. And it was a question, will you know
us just us you can sing better and and you
know the thing is good, And I said, well, but
I can already did this deal with with Quincy, and
I ain't gonna like tell Quincy no at this particular point,
so the song ultimately went to and so the song
was never really four Usher. But but from the way

(17:24):
that probably l A talking, because I'm sure l A
said it differently, that's supposed to be your song went
that way. That's I'm sure that's kind of how it went.
And so Usher is not wrong in terms of how
he how it came to him. He just don't know
the real story behind it. Do you. Okay, you don't know.

(17:50):
But between nine four and ninety nine, did you personally
get tired of hearing you on the radio? No, because
I wouldn't listen how I would if if something came
on that I did, then I turned the RADI off,
I listen then you obviously Yeah, So like because during

(18:16):
that time, because it's like, wait, next hill is ninety five?
And then producing you produced everything on the way into Excel.
How hard was that too? It was it a good
idea at the time versus getting to the end point
it was? It was it was a huge undertaking, only
because it wasn't about it when I did the project. Uh,

(18:40):
Forest Whittaker came to me and asked me to do
it when he um and then not only did he
ask me just to do that. But he also asked
me to score the film m and I said, well,
I've never done that, and he said that's it. And
I told him I can't do that because I don't
that's not what I do. And he said, you can
do it, and I'll get you some help to make

(19:01):
sure you can do it. But initially, I want you
to come and I want you to write the songs
for this film, and I want you to watch the
movie as I'm doing it and and write the song.
So I ultimately kind of took all my gear over
to a studio with him as he was editing the film,
and and I also watched him film of it film
it as well, and then he gave me a kind

(19:21):
of sense of where he wanted to go, and as
he sent me scenes, I'd write songs to it. And
and the truth is, I think every time I wrote
a song, he liked it. And uh, and so I
didn't really go through a bunch of different songs and
that was just kind of like hitting hitting the scenes,
and and then we had to figure out who was
going to sing it. And Uh, initially when we were

(19:44):
doing the um doing the music, it wasn't even we
wanted for sure that Whitney was going to sing anything
at all. Um, she wasn't necessary. She she might sing something,
she might not. We didn't know. And then because it
wasn't it wasn't gonna be a Whitney project. They just
wanted me to do the do the music for it.

(20:06):
So then Whitney decided that she was going to sing something.
And then then Whitney decided that if I'm to be
a part of it, then I get to have sakes.
So who gets to sing? Who? Who don't get to sing? So?
So what someone kicked off the album that we don't
know about? There were some people that she didn't they
want to sing? Um there we ask who? I just

(20:27):
WV made it now? She liked that and uh so,
so the list came up of of the of the girls.
I wrote out a list and and then she I
just wrote out the Listen. She just kind of said nope, nope, nope, yep, yep,
And uh because I know she loves everybody, well everybody

(20:51):
was everybody was who in black music? Was? Was it
a black artist that got rejected? One of them? Oh?
Some pop artists got rejected? M hmm. Nor Madonna. I'm
sure it couldn't be the bus. Did you go for
a big non black names on the black movie about

(21:13):
the black This is fun for us to guess this.
You don't have to name anything. You don't name anything. Uh,
there was another huge artist that Jackson. You're not confirming,
you're not confirming or denying den that's no way. Okay,

(21:37):
she wasn't there, she wasn't on there. Okay, that's all right.
But I feel like a mount like I feel like
the that's two major people. I feel like I'm Mount Fiji.
That could have that could have been on my Hello.
I'm not confirming or denying that makes sense. Yeah, that
makes lessense. Mariah was not on that soundtrack, but would

(21:58):
Tommy led her on a client project problem? Probably not? Okay,
So obviously Mariah was one. Although I'm certain in my
in my I to believe that before the Prince of
Egypt project that maybe perhaps there was an idea thrown
around that Mariah and Whitney do something together on their

(22:20):
Waiting to Excel soundtrack. Yeah, I'm gonna give myself right,
I'm gonna give myself up. I told you we were
spen spent too many times reading album credits. We would
have this conversation if you weren't here. That wasn't a

(22:41):
big conversation, big piece, But there were other people that
were kind of mentioning um. But so the people that
she did pick were the people that she actually she
liked their voices um and more. And and we were
we were just kind of in searching me saying no, total,

(23:04):
y'all never gonna let me live that down. I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I love you, total. What about
us as a damn look soul food soundtracks that time?
How long how long did it take working on that?
Because that's I mean, that's a lot of songs, you know, Um,

(23:25):
I can't even remember. It was a couple of months probably,
you know how long did it take to do Arethas? So?
I love that. That's one of my favorites. Really. Yeah,
I figured she would be the hardest client. She came
in and sank that in three takes, damn. So the
Mavericks just knock it out. Let me find like Faith
Evans took twelve weeks to she I just meant like

(23:52):
just Aretha basically, we'll come in you got three times
and then out of here. You know, it's like so
all the Mavericks are just like yo back man w
went no pro tools and and that was saying I
actually went to England and recorded her there in England. UM.

(24:13):
So that was fun um And that was it was um.
As you're putting the project together, you feel like it's special,
but you don't you don't completely know. Um. And when
it was all when it was all put together, it
was the first time I handed something in the clive
and he had no comments. Was that a good or

(24:36):
bad fan? It's amazing thing has like really sure you
don't want me try to do something? And so there
was there was questions about you know, from a lot
of different people. There was questions. I remember I had
a say this, had a big debate with Andre Herrell
about you know Mary song, UM not gonna cry because

(24:58):
he he felt like that was Mary was too young
to sing that song? Well, because you know it, did
you hear them? That was the beginning of I guess
some of the years of my life. I gave all
years and it's kind of a married divorce. It was
like that's but she was the vessel for that, like

(25:20):
that's she still kills that I was gonna say, like,
I think that really took her from your next door
to sister girl. Mary made her grow up and maybe
they weren't ready. It was her first Yeah, it was
wow wow, but it was it was about I mean

(25:41):
I explained to him, I said, you know, the look,
the thing about Mary is that she has all this
pain and and has the voice to tell the story.
And so she is as you say, she was a
vessel for uh, for Angela where Angela's rolling that in
the movie. And and because of that, it sold and

(26:02):
it worked. Um, and so there's something about all the
women that were involved with that movie at this particularly
more as more time goes by, how special it seems.
You know that, Um, the work that they did, that
everybody did as part of that movie musically as well
as the actual you know filming it so ful soundtrack.

(26:23):
How close did you guys ever get to a milestone
project or was it just that one song recording? Uh?
I want to know what that. I want to know
that session was, like, it was a great It was
a great session. That was um so much fun. I mean,

(26:45):
I wanted the great thing about doing soundtracks is you
got to work with artists that you hadn't hadn't had
a chance to work with yet, so and to create
a reason to work together in the whole milestone thing
that was It was perfect. Um. I purposely just kind
of you know, took a back step and was letting

(27:05):
it be the guys, you know, between Kevin and Melbourne
and Casey and Jojo and just to hear their voices.
And they always talked about a mile stone thing, but
it never really I think it was a record company
issues or whatever like that, And it's always something that
I've always played around with, you know, thinking about trying
to do it at one point, but just we just

(27:25):
never got there. What was the advantage of producing that
movie and that soundtrack though, because that was like your
first that was Was that the first time you did entertainment? Um?
It was first? Sorry I was I was just saying
that what I was thinking it was the first time,
but I couldn't remember I had plenty was okay producing

(27:46):
the movie? Yeah, the movie that was great, Like freaking
half plenty. I've watched Love forty. That's my life. Yeah,
like I thought that with somebody I loved that, Well,
yeah that's his life too. Trying to explain, d' angelo,

(28:08):
this is movie about your life that you don't know about.
He still, yeah, I heard about this. So how did
that project wind up in your lap? Um? The Uh,
it was kind of we ran into the I'm losing
his name right now, Chris Um, Chris Scott or Chris
yer Row. Do you know I have the DVD Little

(28:34):
Chris Fisher. We round from Sundance and we were able
to kind of take that film, take that film when
we took it to Sundance and was able to get
it made through you know, and that way. But we
had we had saw the film and loved it, thought
he was great. That whole Love forty thing was amazing.

(28:55):
By the way, Steve, do you know the story of
honest Steve engineered Uh, de' angelo's voodoo, so not the
lead engineer. So you were there like we were there.
We were there in prison for six years like Michael
Jacks And yeah, so Love Love forty was supposed to

(29:23):
be like Brown Sugar, like a song about forty of love,
like like literally this guy. I guess the narrative is
that the lead protagonist was in love with um that
she used to work at. Her name was Heavilyn Savage. Right, no, no, no,

(29:43):
but you really know that movie I got if you
were well she used to date, right no, no, no,
but I'm saying that, uh, the and R that work,
that the publishing spot that D was playing at when

(30:06):
he got signed, he and her started dating. So the
movie is really based on a real life story of
this kind of triangle between this R and B singer
uh in the object of her affections and the guy
that like he just basically made a movie about it.
And yeah, it's it's quite up. It's really it's it's

(30:36):
it's a classic. All right. So you said you never
got tired of yourself? Uh on the radio, but I
mean towards I mean after Like, what do you say
when Eric Clapton comes a calling, like is it? Oh yeah,

(30:58):
of course, like you you say, God himself is how
does he know who I am? That's what you say?
Whose idea was that? Kathy Nelson from m C A,
m c A, Yeah, how do you know that Kathy?
I remember I know her name because she was on
the cbfore soundtrack whatever anyway rights dot com, Oh my god, jesus.

(31:33):
All right, so she came up with the idea thing Nelson. Yes,
she called and said that you know, she had this idea,
had to had this song. Uh with no no, Um
judge had had done the song and UH sent me
the song to let me here and then she said,
now I have this idea for you to do it
with their Clapton. Um. I sent it to Eric Clapton
and actually Eric Clapton said he would do it, but
he would only do it if you produced it. And Uh,

(31:58):
I was like, well, how's even know who I am?
And then UM we got on the phone and he
told me that he was a fan of He loved
the song when can I see you again? Um, and
said that you know, he was very inspired by that
and he thought I could do a good job with
the moment. So when the England recorded it with him,

(32:18):
that was a crying song that I just remember when
I came out and the video came out of it.
You just started, if I could change the world, change
the world, changed, change the world? And how come how long?
Oh lord that video? Where'd you record that song? And uh?
Which one the Clapton song? And uh in England I
forget the name of the studio that was recorded part

(32:40):
of it there and then part of it here and
record play. Was that after trying? Was that after take
a ballot? I don't know, Yeah, before okay, thank you?
Then was it was it easy recording her? Or yeah? Um?

(33:03):
Me and Macdonna got along very well, see the same
thing she liked for Kenna see you and and so
she went to work together because of that and um,
and she came to my house at the time. I
just lived on Sidey Seed and we we wrote the
song there at the house. And actually I had a
little studio in the house where we recorded part of
it there. One question I always had a project, always
had a question about was Tony Rich I was read

(33:27):
because I thought it was you the first time I
heard it. Yeah, So how did that come about? When
me and l A, uh we're mad at each other? Okay,
what happened? I can't tell that never mind, But how
many artists were reflection of it? Me and l A

(33:49):
kind of had fell out and um and so Paves
went to find another me. So she found Tony Rich.
You did not write nobody news, Nope, he didn't. No,
he didn't that That's why I thought it was I
had that album I need Laser Shots. You did not

(34:11):
write that. You had nothing to do with that, nothing
to do with it other than him being on my label. Yeah,
Like he has the plaque for his Greatest Fighter on
his It's like like that's a good fight, Like I'm
gonna fight with you. Was you gonna get paid? Don't
worry about it? I thought you. So many people thought that,

(34:32):
but no, or at least think back up on it. Nah,
well not now. When I first heard John B, I
thought that was because when they was like, yeah, that's
the new John B featuring baby Face, I was like, Okay,
when did John B? Saying? I didn't know? I didn't
know he was on that record? When I said, I
was afraid to ask. I mean, the thing was like,
I was like, how do you feel about working with

(34:52):
someone that sounds so closely to you? Like, how did
you it's the Wolf in Scott I didn't know you had?
That was all Tony rich Baby okay, and nobody knew
what except those two? You know, I had that album.
I think I ordered like from Columbia houses some ship

(35:13):
but dollar that's yeah, uh yeah. I literally just walked on.
So I want to ask you, um with yeah, yum um,
what were some of the arts. One of the artists
that you guys had signed Lornia. You learn that he

(35:40):
was a great artist and she had it she I mean,
she had amazing voice. Um, that wasn't that but that
was Tracy's label. That wasn't really my label. That was
you know, so that was kind of like that thing
and I supported it, you know. Um, but Lorne was
one of those really great artists that you know, I'm
sorry it didn't work out for her, like like thinking

(36:00):
shouldn't because she's amazing voice and and also amazing um
spirit about her as well, beautiful person. The evolution of
Tracy Edmands is quite amazing, Like she has become a
role model for a lot of women, especially executives that
how do you how does that make you feel? Like
some of the things that you guys built. And I'm
proud that she was able to, you know, come from

(36:22):
where she came from beause you know, people just they
you know, she was in a video so they called
a video girl, and and so I spent a good
deal of time trying to take that off of her
and give her the opportunity to prove that, you know
that she was she's a business person business. I mean
that so fool was just so it was so it
was it was a lot more about that. You know, Um,

(36:44):
women in business, UM, many times they will not get
the same shot because they because they think that they
don't know what they're doing or are are It's uh,
it's just this, you know, it's a chauvinistic man's game.
And so I think when you can, when you have,

(37:04):
when you're in a position to help help someone, then
that's what you should do. You know, a buddy of mine,
new artists that you're working with, she said, you guys
are working to other cat ground. Uh. She wanted me
to ask you, which I thought was a great question,
what do you do when you have writer's block? But
is that even the thing? Do you have? Right? Does
that even exist? Yeah, you just don't write, just let

(37:27):
it go because it just stop. You just don't write.
And then I thought it was a baby face punt. Yeah,
all right, let it go, let it flow. Random, random
baby face question. I just wanted to ask. In the
last two years solid, can you tell me how Solid
came about? And how did Todd dollarside? How did that happen? Um?
SI called here and wanted to work with me and

(37:48):
you and that's that's a great because I love his
voice and um incredible voice. And then uh, as I
met him, we just did some more work together just
recently too. So um but when we when we started
to work together, and then I saw how much of
a musician he was. That was That's what I was
impressed about. And does he play yeah, okay yeah, and

(38:10):
uh good musician and so he's very untapped in terms
of what what his real talent is I think, and
I think that will keep showing. It's more time goes by,
but it was it was fun to do that. Then
we just we just recently did some more work again.
And uh, I like, I like doing work everywhere, so

(38:30):
whether it's you know, whether it's hip hop or whether
it's your country or are any any genre because to
be able to why I feel so blessed because I
can work with the ty Dalla side, you know ago
our little way, and then I can also then I'm
working with Johnny Mathis, I do with Barber Strikes. So

(38:52):
I have a question, what was it like, Um, how
did the Fallout Boy project work coming out? Because because
that's that's it seems like really random just know that's
It's the other thing where I get calls from you know,
these artists that you know Patrick from Fallback call and
uh and wanted to wanted to do some work and
want to figure out how to how how we could
work together and so um I was able to, you know,

(39:14):
do a couple of things with them. And they called
me because of the Josie and the Pussycats and the
music I did for the Josie and the Pussycats. I
was gonna say, Uh, I once tried to do this, uh,
like real serious symposium, like in New York, and I

(39:34):
had their ears and then I had to give a reference,
and I gave a Josie and the Pussycat reference and
the collective left there about here they were like get out.
But the thing was, y'all were really trying to drop
some science in that movie. I mean it was beyond
I watched it on it was like it was on
the airplane, when you're on the airplane. Um, but it

(39:59):
wasn't the standard popcorn fair. You guys are literally trying
to expose all the magician's tricks to how the industry works.
And I almost felt like when I watched it, I
was like, wait, are y'all allowed to do this? Like
how are they not trying to get rid of you guys?
Like what was I mean, what was the it was

(40:22):
because because it was colored in in this comical mhm.
Have you guys seen it? I haven't seen it. It's
a it's like they're literally exposing the industry. It's like
behind what what's the behind the behind the music? That
behind the music documentary I did where they where they

(40:45):
expose how records get on clear channel and all that
stuff behind the song? I forget what it's but this
is like the movie version of that. It's a good
it's a it's a great movie actually, and um, and
the music was funny and so though it's it's one
of those projects I'm proud to have been a part of. Sure,

(41:07):
so I guess there was not necessarily silence. But before
you did your solo project in two Thou with the Face,
Yeah yeah, with the Neptunes, Like at that point did
you just feel like, Okay, well I don't totally have
to have like fifteen number ones every year like I can, Like,
what made you want to let someone else produce you?

(41:31):
That was rough? Um, because the tunes well that was cool, okay, um,
because I wanted to learn and I work with uh
younger writers and younger producers that i'd like to see
what they do. Um. There's never a point where you
can't learn more and and to watch for real work

(41:54):
and and you know, because he was doing everything on
this ensnic and it was like, wait a minute, this
is all you use? That was amazing. Um. And to
see him at that particular point, I I told him
at that point, I said, I know that one day
he's gonna blow up because of the passion that he
has with everything. And I kind of already kind of

(42:15):
liked everything that he did. But at that point, what
was different for that project for me was that I
really kind of let go and let everybody kind of
produce me so heavy d he was part of that, uh,
and he brought in a couple of songs and uh,
and I was working with Andre Horael and so they
were so I really kind of was just letting them

(42:37):
guie at me. Um. Okay, So I have the story
do you know the story about to tell oh Jesus Christ?
All right, so uh, earlier that day, the roots are
at the House of Blues. Um, this is like this
might have been ninety nine, I guess um. And I

(43:02):
got a weird phone call that I didn't trust, and
my managers like, yo, um, you're gonna go to Baby
Faces Studio after the show tonight, um. And I was
like for what He's like, I don't know to to
work on stuff? I said, does he want me to
drum on stuff? Like see make sure my back lines there.

(43:23):
I'm thinking I'm going there to drum on it. They're
like to see about production and I was like, Okay,
who's punking me? Like why in the world with the
world's most successful songs, I want to weep with me
like one and a half hits like that? That doesn't
sound right. So I instantly thought it was set up.

(43:45):
I thought it was set up between between nineties six
and two thousand and two. The kind of the kind
of no no, the kind of what they do now
was following me, and I always felt that some even
with Biggie going like, I always felt like there was
gonna be some like bad boy retaliation about to happen. Um.

(44:11):
And it really got confirmed because when we're on stage
during the last like by this point, like Scratch Roz,
we're doing there so parts of the show, and you
know the show is about the end. I looked to
the stage left and I saw these three big dudes,
like three big monsters l a dudes at the side,
and Tina's like, these guys are gonna drive you to

(44:32):
baby Face. I'm a I'm a die. So you know,
we get all stage and they're like, yeah, what's up, man,
how are you doing? We're going to drive you on
the face the studio. And I knew by that point
I was gonna die because I was like, this is
how bad Boy gets me back for what they do video.

(44:52):
And we walked out of the dressing room. We're in
the hallway, and I distinctly remember running back to the
dressing room and I grabbed a bag of Laies Mesquite
barbecue chips because I was like, okay, well, at least
wanted this is gonna be my last meal before I die.

(45:14):
And we get in the car and it's just like
the Mafia films, like I sat in the middle. I
sat in the middle, flanked between these two guys. They
drive me to the studio. We go down in this
sort of tunnel thing, and when we're walking in the hallway,
was like the Green Mild death row scene. It was dark,

(45:36):
no lights on, and I just like, oh fuck, I'm
about to get baseball bad at the death, like this
is album my die and opened the door and it's
Heavy D. And I was like Heavy D. He's like, hey, man,
come on man. And then I knew it was a
set up because I was like, I didn't know Heavy
D as a producer then, you know what I mean.

(45:58):
I was like, what are you doing here? Yeah? Man,
you know producing baby Face And I was like, no, oh,
I mean you did not produced. Yeah, I get down
working on Jill Scott too, and then like he plays
me all these songs and you know, by that point,
I was like and then he got to you like

(46:21):
one you were like in another studio somewhere. You got
on the phone like on another line. But yeah, I
thought that I was going to die at night, and
I thought, what what did you end up doing? Was joint?
I ended up breathing the side of relief and took
about five pounds off of me going back to the bathroom. No, no,

(46:45):
I listen. By that point, you know, we were like
torn like crazy, so I just didn't have time to
to commit to that, But yeah, I knew that I
was being pranked because there was no way in hell
that I was supposed to be working on a baby face. Right.
It sound like you the one person he hasn't worked

(47:06):
with yet. Yeah, I was about to say, you're both
here right now, we are in a studio. The duet
that you did with Raphael Sad, did you talk about
letting other cats produce you? Was that instance that? Yeah?
It was on the It was on Um. Yeah, I
mean me and Raphaell we we kind of like the

(47:31):
same dude sometimes, and so like working with him was
it's kind of like working with myself. Uh he is
that a good thing or bad? Fans? That's a good thing.
I don't with him, I don't worry. But if I'm
behind the microphone, that the hardest part for me is
being behind the microphone and and singing and then letting

(47:52):
somebody tell me if that was good or that wasn't good.
And I'm like, that wasn't good and I could do it,
do it again or whatever, And so I and I did.
I did the same thing. Actually I did. There was
I'd work with Jimmy and Terry that way. We did
some work together and standing behind that Mike and and

(48:14):
and being just the artist. I did it with Jimmy
and Terry. I did it once with David Foster and
and uh, and that's a hard place for me to be.
It's just, um, I feel like I feel like I'm
I have more than to I know kind of what
to do myself. What was it like working with Terry
and Jimmy Like, was that it was super surreal for you?

(48:35):
Or we had we had fun. We we did some
records that are still nice records, I think, but they
weren't exactly um, they weren't right for the record we
were doing at the time that it ultimately didn't come out.
And they've talked about releasing a lot of songs they
I said, whenever they want to put it on the
record that they do of all the arts they work
with them, fine with that. But dead Stock record where yeah, okay,

(48:59):
that sort of thing. Um. But the actual it was
the first time actually kind of being in and actually
working with them and we I guess everybody is different
in terms of how they do things and how they
approach records and um. So it's always fun to watch

(49:20):
that and see see different musicians that they're bringing and stuffing.
Um and UM, you you this, if you keep your
eyes open, you can always learn something you know of
a feel and learn how to play something a little
bit different. So one question I had about Tony, and
this may have been more of an l a thing

(49:40):
now that you've kind of broken it down, when she
sued the Face, how did you guys get from her
suing the Face to now y'all you know doing the
Love managing the Voice album. Um. I've always been an
artist friendly person, so I understood where she was coming
from when she sued she was selling because there was

(50:01):
nothing we could do about it. We were we had
a joint venture, and so we didn't really make the
final answers on it. Everything that was. We would have
gave everybody everything, but we she was under the aristood
and so when we wanted to pay somebody, they wouldn't
let us. And uh, and so we were both the

(50:22):
TLC and the Tony Brackston situation was because when they
came to us and asked for money, we'd say, yep,
we agree, we want to give them. They wouldn't let
us do it, so they sued us and then they
ultimately gave him the money. We wouldn't give people money,
wouldn't they let your paper? Were you guys that labeled proper?
Or a production deal? Because usually with the production deal,
it's like he gotta get a he gotta get he

(50:43):
gotta get production. There was, it was a JV. But
the reality is we couldn't make the complete cause they
they handled the first drink. So, um, do you have
a relationship with Clide Davis? Yeah, what what is your
feeling with him? Um? Clive is a businessman. Yeah, he's
a businessman. I've worked with him in so many on

(51:04):
so many different things. Um that I've had to work
with them. Um, you know, because it's Windey Houston, you know, Um,
there was. I'm working with him right now with Johnny
Johnny Mathis. Um wait, clap still has a label. He's
at least a ring this. He's the head of this.
He came up with this whole idea about Johnny Mathis doing,

(51:26):
Um the song book. Um, okay, you know a new
song book that, Um what is Clide Davis? Clive is
maybe damn It takes a looking and then Johnny mathis,
what's this? What's his vocal prowess? Like great he still

(51:49):
he sounds great. I saw him on he was on
Tavis Smiley. I think one of us watching him like
a years ago. He sounds great. Okay, So before we
wind down, and I know every songwriter does thislike all
my songs are my children? Gun to your head? Gun

(52:09):
to your head? If all your songs are personified as
human beings on the Titanic and they're going down in
the ship, which three songs are you saving? What is
your Yes, it doesn't have to be like your biggest
hits or whatever. But so don't say in the Road
or whatever, because like, oh that got me my first

(52:31):
house in Malibu. Like, but I mean, like what songs
like give you goose bumps or best memories of recording it,
or like ones that still impress you like I made that? Really?
How did that come with me? That is a hard
question because he you have to you when I think

(52:54):
about I have to think about like, obviously I'm one
of those will be a Whitney song because she's not here,
so now XL and I mean baby tonight, I feel
like very special because of that. Um, but not necessary
because I love them more than any particular song cinema,

(53:15):
So um, and I always give you the question, what's
the best song I've ever written? I haven't written because
and I But the truth is I really believe that. Um.
I don't say that to to sound sound cool. I
say it because I because I look at the songs
that other people write. Damn, I wish I wrote that.

(53:36):
So what three songs of yours could you like? I
hate that, like, yeah, it could have been better, or
I phone that one in well. I wish I had
another opportunity to work with Michael Jackson and who would
not have given him slave to the rhythm, but a
better song I did do? Um Uh, I got it. Yeah,

(54:01):
I did do that one, and it was. The funny
thing is Michael Jackson has the song and get yeah
gotta put my gotta put your heart on the line
and uh. And I loved that I had that opportunity
I was able to. I ultimately became friends with Michael
and and found my places and find myself in places

(54:22):
with Michael like what am I doing here? Throughout my career,
I've I found my place myself at places where I like,
I have to pinch myself, why how am I here? Um?
So many times? And whether it's just being there as
an artist or me presidents hanging with presidents, Uh, going
to going to I went to a trip to Nice

(54:44):
with Michael Jackson and saw him for Farm on the
stage and he had me standing on the in the
dressing room off to the side as he would go
back and forth, and I'm like, and why am I here?
Why am I here? When you said me Nation? I
want how did that happen? Like the energy? So yeah,

(55:09):
he did. Ultimately he said, you know, you and I
we have the same sense of humor because we're both
from Indiana. Hey, that's from truth. I think there's some
truth to that. Um. Well, I gotta didn't answer your questions. No,
of course you did. Uh, baby Face, I really, really,

(55:30):
really truly want to thank you for letting us. Yes, man,
pick your brain and I would say, in here, in
your in your space. One of my Titanic baby Face
songs would be Lady Lady like off. I love that song.
It's like, God, you're such an R and B D Yo, man,
that's if you thank that. I'm taking at the movies. Movies.

(55:52):
I never do the title right, but you know, still
there is a there is a cover, there's been a
cover of Shoot Him Up Movies done by Moby Dick
on No Limit Records. It is it is one of

(56:12):
the worst. Here your life. I don't know what baby
faces it's heard that No no, it shoot him Up
movies done by by Moby Dick, who used to do
all the hooks for No. That sounds like a bad idea,
you know. I don't know if it's worse than the TJ.
Swan and Whitney. Oh my god, yes, I still think

(56:38):
this is it. Yeah, this was ninety eight. This is
like no, no, no, you gotta do this is such
a menial yet up, No, not just cover. It's just yeah,
it's just here we go, come on ten. Okay, how

(57:09):
do you know this? Fonte dude? Like y'all, I was
a No Limit head, like I just there was in college,
Like I just consumed too much music as a kid man. Okay,
that hurts a little to wait to the hook, the hook,
because that's what it really just gets kind of pain.
This It sounds like me in my bedroom, according myself,

(57:31):
sitting along to the radio. Keep trying right, there's a video.
Oh it was a video. Oh my god, it was
at least they at the movie. I want to have
met with salons now all right, hello, here me go,

(57:52):
come on, come with it total listen. Dude would go
through shoot up. Oh you tried it, he tried it,

(58:13):
he tried. All right, it's beautiful. Thank you baby, thank you,
thank you for that again. We appreciate uh everything that
you've done. And thank you. You are you are a
black guy, and just says of my life in the hallway.

(58:38):
You get a chance to see a baby Face show today,
like please do because you surprised the ship out of me.
Where you jump in the crowd and do like go
to church. It was just amazing. So I tell people
that the show is amazing, and I just want to say,
you're probably the last artist that everyone in my family
was able to enjoy. Um. My dad bought two copies
of Waiting to Exhale and kept one in the car

(58:59):
one in the bed room. WHOA my mom. I called
my mom just before this to let her know that
I was interviewing you, and she like almost probably hopped
on a plane to come meet my sister. She's the
one that you know brought Tender Lover in the house
and you know it's thinking like you are the one
that brought my family together. I guess you could say, so,

(59:20):
is there someone that you haven't worked with yet that
I haven't worked with? You? Bang bang got all right,
Well we should, we should, we should do that someday. Yeah,
we definitely worked. But in general, I think, I mean,

(59:43):
there's always artists that um that come up that that
I'd be honor to work with. But you know, I
have been so lucky to work with so many arts
that if I don't, I'll be all right if you
never make another record, Like you're good, dude, You're good
ever forever. So it's like sugar Steve, alright, So we

(01:00:04):
do our reflections at the end. Uh, what have you
learned this episode? I'm still on one of the first
things I heard. Forty nominations. Uh, that's incredible. You're just
gonna say, probably got a nomination even for the Writer's Block.
Even my Writer's Block is sponsored by nurse What did

(01:00:27):
you I think I've learned that, like all these songs,
you're such a machine that in my mind every song
meant something deep and was based on something. But you're
such a machine that it doesn't always And that's all
right because it does to me. That's what I take
a little man. What I learned is just really just
kind of reinforce something I've always believed, just for him
saying that it's all about the song, you know what

(01:00:48):
I mean, and just how it really is. Um, it's
easy to give stuff away just because if you feel
that it can be better served for another person. It's
easy to be unselfish in that way because you just
see it has a higher purpose and you know, Bobby
could take it further than I could, or Boys the
Man or whoever whoever. That's just something that's really inspiring

(01:01:10):
and very very wise. Boss Bill Kobe Yo, yeah the
slang Kobe, Yeah, should check out general hospital to hospital.
But I gotta I was gonna say, when we when
we stop this, what are we gonna we leave like

(01:01:32):
five minutes from now? What's the what was it? We
covered everything right? One thing we may have touched on
a little bit, but just I guess we covered it. Yeah,
never mind, what was that? Well? I was gonna ask you,

(01:01:53):
do you prefer writing for women or men? Because you
do such a great job writing for women, Like I don't.
I don't think there's any other males songwriter that can
write for a woman the way that you do, so, like,
do you have a preference. I don't have a preference,
but I know that I can for women. It's a

(01:02:14):
lot of times here in recent years when I get
someone comes in the studio, we have a conversation and
we talk a lot, and I get into it's like
a doctor film moment by the time. So I go
for tears in our first conversation. Are you trying to
Barbara Walters? Them? What kind of question? I go in

(01:02:36):
for the relationships and everything, so that we can get
to a point to where we can so I can
I can know them, and I can try to write
from that perspective. Um and uh, because it gives you something,
you know, because at that particular point, um, you don't.
Sometimes you can guess about somebody and try to figure
out who they are before you get to them. And

(01:02:59):
it's like when Whitney first came and heard this all miracle,
she wasn't ready for it, but when she heard it,
she cried, um, and at least she had tears in
her eyes. And so she said, that's not for me. Um.
But and I thought to myself, to be honest, I
thought to myself it's not for you, because it is

(01:03:19):
for you, you know, and you don't. The truth is,
I thought, you don't want to say things that you
can relate to. UM, so ultimately you go, you go
after songs that they don't touch you. Is that how
you got to change your mind on the later on
she decided to do the song, and I don't know
what made her decide to do it exactly. Maybe, so

(01:03:40):
all right, I have one more question. Sorry, this is
a production question. UM. When I listened to like Jimmy Jamming,
Tylor Louise, I can usually tell who there who their
B team was for a certain or a certain era.
I can never I don't think you've ever had like
a B team under you or have you. I'm like
just a team that you know doesn't care. Was kind
of a B team in terms of he might produce

(01:04:01):
some of the vocals. Darrel was really good at produce
some of the vocals. But in terms of tracks and
things in the early days, we didn't. We kind of
like did it ourselves and um, and and we would
would really I don't even really remember putting our name
on something that if we didn't do the tracks, but
we put our name on it like it was us
that wasn't We usually just gave the credit to like

(01:04:23):
it was Kao and Darrel, then they got the credit
for producing it. Yeah, all right, man, this baby all right,
all right, here it is. I used to work at
def Jam a long time ago, and we went on
this company retreat and I can't remember the entire story,

(01:04:44):
but l A was telling the story about you guys
took a I think it was a deal record to
a club. You guys like pumped up. You guys thought
this was gonna be like the biggest record in the world.
You guys took it to the club and to test
it out and it tanked. Like what do you do then? Like,
how what was your how did you feel like knowing
that your your intuition wasn't right on that one? What

(01:05:08):
we learned is that that wasn't our gig. Uh. When
Teddy came out with I wonder when we heard that
at one and the first time I heard that, I said,
oh my god, this is this is changing the game,
and I don't know, I don't know that we can
compete with that um. And then when Teddy delivered my
prerogative on the don't be cruel. I was like, uh,

(01:05:32):
so rather than trying to be that, we just kind
of went the other way. Um, And we weren't trying
to be dance music people. You know, we didn't think
we were gonna make everybody dance or say we were
just gonna entertain and so um, it was really when
we were going there checking these songs in the in

(01:05:54):
the clubs. That was early on. It's like in the
deal days, we didn't have it. We didn't have that
wasn't that part of my thing? And so part of uh,
part part of what happened is because of the ballot,
because because I fell in love with Got Broken Hearts.
That's that's ultimately what helped, you know, shape us as
producers and and and writers. And that opened up the

(01:06:17):
door for us because even though don't be cruel, it
still was still with a love song. You know, Um
what it was about. It wasn't let me get up
in there, you know. So, Um, who was Jackie? I'm sorry,
who was Jackie? Jackie? Don't be controuled and don't be cruel. Yeah,

(01:06:38):
and don't be cruel. Regardless of the fact that I
want you, Jackie, I can't compete that you want to
be with me the same if you want creel And

(01:07:03):
that's the app Bill, Boss Bill and I'm Faid Bill
and sup baby Face, Thank you very much, Supreme, Goodbye.

(01:07:26):
What's Love? Supreme is a production of My Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Bendor.
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