Territorial Pissings: Courtney Love vs. Dave Grohl

In the early '90s, no couple in rock was more notorious than Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love. The tabloid circus that followed them wearied Cobain's bandmates in Nirvana, and that tension only grew worse after Cobain's untimely death in 1994. For the next 20 years, Courtney and Nirvana's former drummer and current Foo Fighter, Dave Grohl, engaged in a war of words in songs and Howard Stern interviews. In the process, cultural institutions like Guitar Hero and The Muppets were dragged into the melee.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and
feuds and long submarine resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

(00:21):
I'm Jordan's and today we're gonna talk about Courtney Love
versus Dave Grohl. Now, this feud is a tendency to
get mischaracterized as basically what happens when you hate your
buddy's girlfriend. You know, it's the old, tired Yoko Ono myth.
But underneath that, it's a story of life after death
and the complications that arise when two people have very
different ideas about how to manage an artist's legacy, and
in this case, it is the legacy of Kurt Cobain

(00:42):
and Nirvana. We recently did an episode in which I
called Jimi Hendrix's death at age seven the greatest tragedy
in rock history. I'm sure that there are people who
would make the same case for Kurt Cobain dying also
at the age of seven being an equally big tragedy.
You know, not only do we lose so much potential music,
but a wife lost a husband and a daughter lost
a father. And then you have these fights over legacy

(01:05):
that inevitably happened in cases like this. It's all just depressing. Really, Yeah,
to me, there's really a genuine sadness in this feud.
It's like a family that was torn apart by drama
and greed and petty squabbles after the patriarch died. But thankfully,
the Muppets make an appearance in this episode, so hopefully
that'll offset some of the darkness. Well, now that I
know that the Muppets are involved, I'm suddenly much less depressed.

(01:26):
So without further ado, let's get into this mess. According
to Lore, Kurt met Courtney at a club in Portland
in either or nineteen nineties sources very she teased him
saying that he looked like the singer from Soul Asylum,
and within minutes they were play wrestling on the floor
of the bar. And it feels like this is a

(01:48):
really appropriate way to start this entire story, wrestling on
the floor of a bar. Yeah, exactly. And you know,
Corney levin this era. It's funny because you know, we
all think of her as like this nineties icon, But
if you watch movies from the eighties, like the Alex
Cox movies, sitting Nancy and Straight to Hell. I remember, like,
the first time I saw those movies, I was like,
what is Courtney Love doing here? Like she just shows
up in those movies and she wasn't famous yet, but

(02:10):
she was kind of like a scenster, like on the
fringes of like a lot of different things. Yeah, exactly.
Kurt definitely knew who she was, not only for her
role in the music scene, but for her role in
these movies too, And there was definitely a mutual traction
right off the bat that Kurt was still with his
longtime girlfriend Tracy Marander and uh, and it wasn't gonna
happen then. But there have been a lot of myths

(02:31):
about Courtney and her motives for wanting to get together
with Kurt, and you know, a lot of these have
been tuned with jealousy and sexism, but it definitely seems
like Courtney was the aggressor when it came to getting together.
She had a huge crush on him, and she started
following Nirvana's press coverage basically like an avid sports fan.
Although it's funny, she wasn't really all that sold on
their music. She was more in a mud honey but
about a year or two went by and the one

(02:53):
of Courtney's friends was dating Dave Grohl, and so that
was her end in the Nirvana camp. You know, when
you tell your your friend that you think that their
friend is cute, you know it's going to immediately get
back to him. It's a classic classic move. So she
told Dave about her crush on Kurt, and Dave told
her that Kurt was actually now single. So Courtney decided
to shoot her shot, and she sent Kurt a heart

(03:14):
shaped box filled with a tiny porcelain doll, dried roses, seashells,
and a miniature teacup which he rubbed with perfume like
a magical charm, which is a bit more Stevie Nixon
I would have expected from Courtney Love, but still very interesting. Yeah,
and of course heart shaped box that ends up being
the title of an iconic Nirvana song. So you can
already see that Courtney Love, like from the beginning, was

(03:36):
I think having a huge impact on Kurt Cobain. Yeah,
you said this thing earlier about how you know she
had been pursuing him for almost like two years. I mean,
she had crush on him. I wasn't sure about Nirvana's music,
but like thought Kurt Cobain was was really something else,
and they don't really hook up until the fall of
nine nine one. Now what else happens in the fall, Well,

(03:57):
that is the release of never Mind, which comes out
in September of that year, and that album, of course,
goes off like a rocket. And I remember, like when
Smells Like Teen Spirit, you know, that video hitting MTV,
And my memory of it is that like one day
there was no Smells Like Teen Spirit, and then the
next day that video was playing every fifteen minutes. I mean,
it just seemed like Nirvana took over the culture so

(04:19):
quickly in the fall of And I think for people
who are skeptical of Courtney Love or just flat out
dislike Courtney Love, they look at this timeline and it's
very easy to be cynical about this and say, well,
of course she is choosing this moment in time to
finally make her move on Kurt Cobain, because he is now,
all of a sudden, a certifiable rock star, you know,

(04:40):
maybe the biggest rock star on the planet. And you know,
the thing with Courtney Love is, you know, I think
there's people that look at her as purely evil and
people that look at her as this misunderstood person that
is actually much better than like how she's perceived. And
my take on Courtney Love is that everything about Courtney
is messy and complicated and you can't really put her

(05:02):
like in any one slot. I do think that she's
a victim of sexism. I do think that she has
been treated unfairly in the media almost from the time
that she became famous. But I also think that she's
an opportunist who was very ambitious, and I don't think
that she pursued Kurt Cobain just to further her career.
I think she was generally interested in him, but I'm
sure the fact that he was now hugely successful was

(05:25):
not a turn off to her. I mean, don't you think,
I mean, am I being too hard on her? I
just feel like both things can be true at the
same time. Yeah, I was gonna say I think that
she was definitely in the Curt long before he could
have been any help to her career. I think so.
I think that's definitely genuine. But yeah, the monster levels
of fame that he now had certainly didn't hurt. I mean,
there was a great description of Courtney in a w

(05:47):
article where they described her as a dangerous combination of
flamboyant instability and focused ambition. I thought that was a
pretty good, like both sides of Courtney coin description right there, exactly.
I think that's totally right. I think it captures her
and that's why she's such a fascinating figure and I
think one of the great rock stars of that time.
Like I could just read any article written about Corney

(06:08):
Love in the early nineties. You know, she's just like
a fountain of quotes and uh, you know, crazy anecdotes,
and she's never a dull moment. With Courtney Love and
Kurt and Courtney you know, just like never mind ends
up being like a rocket. I mean their relationship is
also like a rocket. I mean they started dating in
the fall, and by the following February, you know, I

(06:28):
guess what, like four or five months later, they're already married.
They got married in Hawaii. Uh, and Courney Love, I guess,
was pregnant already with Francis been at this time. And
you can already see that there's like dissension in the
Nirvana ranks about Courtney Love because I guess Krisha didn't
show up to the wedding. It was like a pretty
small ceremony. I don't think there were any family members

(06:48):
there either, but like eight people. But like, weirdly enough,
Dave Grol was at the wedding, and there's a photo.
I think if you google like Kurt Cobain wedding Dave Growl,
you will find this photo and google images where he's
like standing between them, I think holding both of their hands. Uh.
Courney Love is wearing this like white dress that used
to belong to the actress Fancis Farmer. Chris Cobain, of course,

(07:10):
is wearing green checkered pajamas in this photo, which which
are now an heirloom. By the way, Frances Being did
a whole photo shoot in him and then Dave Girls
in the middle, And like, what is how should we
read Dave girls facial expression here? Because I feel like
he's smiling and he's obviously at the wedding, But like,
should we read like awkwardness into this photo? Is he uncomfortable?

(07:31):
You know? We're not his state of mind at this
time to me is unclear? Right, I can't tell if
it's like staged funny, Oh, we're having an awkward family photo,
I'm gonna make an awkward family photo face, or if
he's genuinely like not sure how to react and not
your feels about this, Uh my gut is leaning towards
the ladder because Courtney's had a hard time, I think

(07:54):
fitting into the Nirvana framework. I was watching um the
Montage of Heck documentary recently, and there's some really incredible
home movie footage that was taken when the band is
in the studio and and that rehearsals and stuff, and
you watch how the band talked to Courtney, and it
can be brutal. There's a shot of I think Steve
Albany just like yelling at Courtney behind the camera like

(08:15):
you're not on stage right now, you can't do that here.
And like another one where like Dave girls like making
fun of her hair is saying she's just like straighten
her hair because it makes her face look less round.
And I don't know, I mean maybe it's like good
natured like band like sibling, like you know, needling kind
of thing, but I don't know. There's definitely seems like
there's an edge to it, and then the edge comes
through in that photo and this dynamic between Nirvana and

(08:36):
Courtney Love. Again, I feel like any attempt to simplify
it doesn't quite tell the whole story. Because if you
just say that the guys in Nirvana were sexist, or
you know, they were I guess expecting Courtney Love to
know her place. I think there's some truth in that.
But I also think there's some truth in the idea
that Courtney Love maybe was not a great influence on
Kurt Cobain at this time, and Kurt Courbain probably wasn't

(08:57):
a good influence for her either. I mean, they were,
I think, very quickly ahead of mythology about them of
being like the new Sid and Nancy, And there was
that famous I think it was a Vanity Fair story
by Lynn Hirshberg that really fueled that impression that these
two were basically, you know, just junkies who were also
parents and it just not fit to be in the
role that they were in. So it seems like there

(09:18):
was a very kind of complicated stew here going on,
like the guys in Nirvana being protected but then also
maybe not really respecting Courtney of Love the way they
should have. Yeah, I mean, they definitely viewed her as
a bad influence, and I think that they assumed that
she brought him deeper into his heroin addiction. A lot
of people in late ears would say that that was
not true. I think the biographer Charles Cross, who wrote

(09:40):
Heavier Than Heaven Um, I would say, like, Courtney apparently
had been cleaned for months when she first got together
with Kurt, and according to him, uh, she made a
conscious choice to to basically start using again because being
with Kurt in order to be with him meant drugs essentially.
So the whole sort of mythology of court me being this,

(10:00):
you know, lady macbeth figure who got Kurt hooked on heroin?
Everything is. It's patently untrue and and really unfair. But
that's not to say that they weren't horrifically codependent and
not exactly a good influence on each other too, And
I think the band picked up on that. In that
same Vanity Pair story, there's a moment when I guess
Dave Grohl calls their house and wants to talk to

(10:20):
to Kurt, and Courtney answers, and she passed the phone
over the Kurt and she rolls her eyes at the
author of the story and goes everyone hates my guts
in this band, like they all hate me. So I
think from very early on she picked up on that.
You know, have you ever had a friend who is
like dating someone and maybe like the individual people in
the relationship, they're both good people, but when they get together,

(10:41):
it's like two bad elements coming together and it just
creates a toxic sto and you're just like, that creates
a third element that's bad and like and you're just
like you're just telling your friend, like, dump that person,
get away from them. This is like terrible for you.
I feel like the sub degree, maybe the guys in
Nirvana were like that, because it's like, even if you
recogniz guys again, I think they were bad influences on

(11:02):
each other. I think Kurt Cobain, like you said, he was,
I think, probably just as destructive to Courtney Love as
as she was to him. But it was just like together,
maybe it just seemed like there was a weird mojo
going on that maybe other people could pick up on.
I mean, I think the other thing too, that like
you really can't downgrade, is that Courtney Love was also
a big instigator and changing the royalty agreement that the

(11:24):
guys in Nirvana had because I think originally, like, wasn't
it an even split between the three of them, and
then she was pushing for Kurt to get like a
bigger piece of the pie. Yeah, there's been a lot
of debate on that. I mean, after never Mind went
through the roof, I guess Kurt supposedly threatened to quit
if his bandmates didn't agree to changing the split agreement
on the songwriting royalties. And yeah, they had divided it

(11:45):
evenly before, and I guess now Kurt wanted a a
seventy split for the music and then he was going
to get of the lyrical cut, and Dave and Chris
felt betrayed, but you know, they didn't want to torpedo
this band and that was now, you know, the biggest
band in the world, So they went along with it.
But they blamed Courtney for this, and whether or not

(12:05):
that's right or wrong is up for debate again. Charles
Cross again says that the decision was actually all Kurts.
It's impossible to note for sure, but the band at
least believed to be Courtney's doing. And in fairness, I mean,
Kurt Cobain was writing the songs I mean, so I
understand whether it was Kurt's idea to do that or
Courtney or them together, it's not outrageous for him to

(12:26):
ask for that. The argument for splitting things evenly is
that these sorts of arguments always derail bands. So there
are bands that will just split things evenly just to
take it out of the equation. But you know, if
you have someone who is coming up with all the material,
you know there's going to be some resentment probably on
his part, and he's gonna feel like he deserves more
of the money. Of course, you know, the irony of this,

(12:47):
if irony is the right word, is that, you know,
like you said, Groll and No Sala, they agreed to
this to keep Nirvana together. But then, of course Nirvana
didn't last much longer because Kurt Cobain takes his own
life in ninety four and now they have this, you know,
uneven split greatly in Kirk Cobain's favor, But now it's
going to be Courtney Love who's gonna have the advantage

(13:09):
of that. So that's going to complicate things as we
move into this sort of post Kurt Cobain era. Yeah,
and I mean the late nineties. The feud doesn't really
erupt publicly because I think everyone is just so shocked
by by what had happened. Then it just would be,
you know, not a very good look for Kirk Colebain's
widow to be feuding with this former bandmates. But Dave
Grohl has been recording is Is Debbie with the Foo

(13:29):
Fighters in the wake of Kurt's death, and of course
Nirvana fans are listening really closely trying to hear any
kind of like lyrical clue to you know, what Dave
might say about Kurt's passing or something. And the one
song that really sticks out that these people are I'll
stick Around, which features the line I'm the only one
who sees you're rehearsed insanity, which many took to be
about Courtney, which you're not the only one who sees that,

(13:50):
by the way, Dave Grohl, I think a lot of
other people saw that. But you know, be that as
it may. I guess there was gonna be a video
too that was supposed to like have a floating vision
of this like bloated inflatable girl that was supposed to
represent Courtney, but Dave's management was like, yeah, you don't
want to do that. You don't want to go down
that road. Please don't do that. Yeah, that would have
been underlining it. Probably a little bit too much. I

(14:11):
mean that comes out on the first Food Fighters record,
which drops in and you know, is really I mean
that record did really well, and then the next bunch
of records did even better, really establishing Dave Grohl as
like a viable solo artist. I think of that song
Stacked Actors that appeared on the third Food Fighters record,
There's nothing less left to lose, where he's saying stacked

(14:33):
dead actors, stacked to the rafters, lineup, you bastards. All
I want is the truth. They all die blond, which,
you know, the thing with that song, I think the
context of that, and I feel like people forget this
that there was this period in the nineties like where
Courtney Love was like a really viable, like yeah, movie star,
almost like an A list star. She was like in
The People versus Larry Flint, she was in A Man

(14:55):
in the Moon, the English Foreman, Adie coppin Bio Pick,
and she had this makeover where you know, she went
from being this you know, very aggressive punk rock woman
in the early nineties to being this like beautiful, glamorous
movie star Marilyn Monroe stuff. Yeah, it was an incredible
transformation that happened after Kurt Cobain died. And again, I

(15:16):
think for cynics looking at this, it was very easy
to look at Courtney Love and say she is parlaying
the notoriety that she got from Nirvana and Kurt Cobain's
death and just she's like parlated into this very sort
of conventional Hollywood stardom. And you know, again, as with
all things with Courtney Love, I think that is on
one hand, horribly unfair, But on the other hand, it's

(15:38):
like not totally untrue either, like there is an element
of truth there that it just makes it, I think,
really fascinating to talk about Courtney Love and also difficult
because you can't really put her in anyone box, right.
I mean, Dave Is has been very wary of of
confirming what that song is about, but I'll stick around.
He's definitely said, he confirmed his biographer that you know,

(15:59):
I don't think it's any c scurt that will stick
around about Courtney of denied it for fifteen years, he said,
always back, but I'll just come out and say I
just read the words. Yeah, it's like, just just admit
that Stacked Actors is too. I feel like that is
a pretty direct hit at Courtney Love, especially considering that,
like a n I think that was the year of
like his big Howard Stern interview, like where we went
after Courtney Love, because I feel like that's the moment

(16:21):
where this feud kind of goes from being like a
behind the scenes thing to like going full out in
the public. Yeah, this is when the flames first start
to appear. There was smoked before, but this is when
it gets This is when it gets hot. Dave Girl
goes on Howard Stern and uh, he's asked what his
favorite whole song is, what his favorite song in the
whole discography, and he starts teenage Whore and he says

(16:43):
it's because I know she she being Courtneys, because I
know she wrote it, and which is an apparent in
situation that other people, specifically Kurt helped her pad out
holes breakout album live through this, which there's corneal truth
to that, as with most of rumors, did sing backing
vocals on two songs, asking for It and Softer Softest,

(17:04):
and he also wrote a B side, old Age, but
I don't think he was credited on that, and he uh,
given that the album came out a week after Kurt's death,
Kurt really wasn't able to rebuke any of these rumors himself.
But aside from just pure sexism in general dislike of Courtney,
listeners kind of observed that the sound was very different
from Hole's first album, Pretty on the Inside, and you know,
they're marriage is a creative partnership, especially there's and I'm

(17:27):
sure they inspired one another, just like Courtney inspired a
lot of stuff on in Utero to. I mean, Kurt
started writing differently on that too. But but yeah, those
rumors have been persisting for years that Kurt was really
sort of a ghostwriter of Lived Through This. Well, there's that,
and there's also the album's celebrity skin that Billy Corgan
was a big contributor to, and I think he's actually
credited as a co writer on like four or five songs,

(17:48):
including the single Malibu, So it's not like that was
some sneaky thing. But yeah, that's always been the thing,
Like with the two most successful Whole records, that Courtney
Love was basically relying on the men in her at
that time to write songs and and and to prop
her up artistically, which ye, it's a very sexist thing
to say, because I think clearly those records like Hole

(18:10):
Lived Through This there is like a Nirvana like element
to it, but there's also a very sort of strong
Courney Love element to that record too. I would say
that Lived Through This is actually an even more scathing
record than in Euro is like the Courtney Love like
goes like another step farther, and I think Celebrity Skin
is a record that, like, you can hear some of
the Billy Corgan influences, but it's like, it doesn't sound

(18:30):
like Smashing Pumpkins. It sounds like an like an l
A rock record. It sounds like her version of like
a Fleetwood Mac record, which Courtney Love has always been
very upfront about that being an influence on her, and
it seems more Courtney than it would be Billy Corgan.
But you know, Courtney Love, she's not gonna take this
lying down that Dave grol is accusing her of, you know,
being artistically illegitimate. She goes on Howard Stern herself, and

(18:52):
she says, one Kurt hated Dave grol and like wanted
him out of the band. I think she says, like
he hated his guts. She like sang a song that
she made up a song on the spot, just basically
consisting of the words like he hated just brutal. And
then she says that, you know that Dave Roll stood
out in Nirvana because he was like this nice guy,
almost like a jock type person, you know, next to

(19:13):
Kurt and Chris, who are more of these you know,
sort of sensitive art weirdo types. And it's fascinating to
me because like, if you look at these dueling interviews
that they're doing, they're basically calling each other posers, you know,
which is like the most punk rock of all insults,
you know, because like Dave is saying that Corney Love
is artistically a poster, that she's not really writing her

(19:33):
own songs, whereas Courtney is saying that Dave is like
a lifestyle poser, that like he's this rock guy, but
he's really just sort of like, you know, like this
lame dude who uh ended up in Nirvana, but he
really wasn't of Nirvana. He didn't really represent the spirit
of the band. One thing that she said that I
thought was funny was that she says that like whenever
Dave role like goes after her, that he doesn't like

(19:54):
attack her directly, he implies it, which she says is
even lamer, you know, which is very Courtney Love thing
to do, because Courtney Love, you know, he goes with
the judge. She jumps into the mosh pit, you know,
she will throw punches. And Dave Growl is this sort
of like teflon rocker in a lot of ways. He's
I mean, like now he's like the mayor of rock
and roll essentially, Like he's like this. Everyone loves Dave Brol.

(20:16):
I love Dave Rol. I think you love Dave Grol.
He's the Tom Hanks of rock. He's very charming and
he's and he's done a lot of great things in music.
But to me, like, I think what is compelling about
these interviews is that they both I think draw blood
in their comments. I think there's I think that they're
hitting each other's soft spots because there's a lot of truth,
I think, and what each of them are saying not

(20:37):
so much. I don't think it's true necessarily that Dave.
What Dave said about Courtney Love you know, sort of
not writing her own songs, but like the idea of her,
I guess just being an opportunist or someone who puts
herself in the right position. There's a ring of truth
to that, just as it is with Dave Role that
he is maybe the jockeyest guy in Nirvana, Like there's
some truth to that. So yeah, they're both drawing blood

(20:57):
with these interviews big time. All right hand, We'll be
right back with more rivals. So this is now out
in the open. The feud has erupted, and it goes
absolutely next level. In UH two thousand one, when Nirvana

(21:19):
plans to release a tenth anniversary box set of rarities
and it would include a new Vana song, you Know
You're Right, which is one of the last things the
band ever recorded, and UH Courtney blocks its release, and
she said that the song would have been wasted on
a box set and would be better suited to a
singles collection, kind of like the Beatles one, which had
just gone you know, multi multi multi platinum, which is

(21:41):
not a bad that that makes a lot of sense.
I mean, you know, people are gonna buy fifteen dollars
on a on an album for a new Nirvana song
versus shelling out, you know, like a hundred bucks for
a box set. It's a good business decision for sure.
Maybe it's a better fan decision to put it on
a box set because you're getting all this other stuff.
But like, if you want to squeeze money, how to
people and forced them to buy songs? They already have
put it on the Greatest Hits album because people are

(22:03):
definitely gonna buy that, right, So she bars their use
of this song. And this sparks an enormous legal feud,
and not to get too granular about it, basically about
their legal partnership of Nirvana, and the thumbnail version is
a few years after Kirk died, um Groll, Nova, Salage,
and Love all came together in a business partnership, and

(22:27):
Courtney in later years would say that she was sort
of coerced into this, that she'd gotten bad advice from
her lawyers, and that they surviving Nirvana band members. She
was grief stricken and not in a good headspace, and
they basically forced her to sign this document that would
make them all partners and uh, and so now she
wants out. She wants to control Nirvana's legacy completely. She

(22:47):
thinks that Dave and Chris have interfered with poor stewards
of her husband's legacy, and have interfered with a Kurt
Cobain movie and prevented all sorts of Nirvana releases, and
apparently she says that they even threatened us destroying Nirvana recordings,
which is crazy if true, I mean it doesn't. I
can't imagine that's true. So she wants to dissolve this
partnership because she basically says, you know what this it

(23:08):
was never a partnership in life. Kurt was Nirvana. Nirvana
was Kurt's songs, and so Kurt was Nirvana. She had
a great quote from a lawsuit which just said this
could never be a partnership because it was the living
manifestation of the creative vision, personal will, and life force
of a single, unique individual. Basically, Nirvana was a young
one man show, and Dave and Crisper Sideman, especially Dave,

(23:32):
who was she basically wrote off as being like the
band's sixth drama here right. Uh So that's where she
was at with that. She wanted to break the partnership up.
Now this might surprise you, but Dave and Chris didn't
agree with this assessment they thought we are not sidemen,
that Nirvana was a band, and that they basically painted
Courtney Love as again this person who was using the

(23:52):
legacy of Nirvana to further her own ends. And they
go into all these like crazy accusations against Courtney Love,
Like they said that she allowed Smells like teen Spirit
to be in the bos Lerman movie Mulan Rouge because
she wanted to be in the movie, uh, and that
the role that she wanted actually went to Nicole Kidman ultimately.
And again this is like the whole idea that she

(24:15):
is just leveraging all of the credibility that Nirvana has,
like to lend her own pockets. And I think that
was their argument in favor of the box set, like
they felt like this was the best way to represent
their legacy and that she was holding a hostage. They
end up countersuing Courtney Love because they wanted to like
basically get her out of the partnership, right. They wanted
like basically Frances when she came of age, somebody was

(24:36):
a little less combative to be in the in the
Nirvana partnership because they just didn't want to deal with
Courtney anymore. I I think they settled out of court
in around sometime in two thousand two for I assume
a gazillion dollars. I have no idea how much, but
it's not been made public. But yeah, so Courtney ends
up still staying part of the partnership. You know, there's
another issue at this time too, that when Kristen Dave

(24:58):
were responding to like the Courtney Love accusations, they talk
about how, you know, they both made a point to
not talk about Kurt Cobain after he died, like they
didn't do any interviews about him, and they didn't like
the fact that Courtney Love would sort of freely talk
about Kurt all the time and interviews. They felt that
she was basically misrepresenting his death and and what his
intentions were in the band. And clearly like these, you know,

(25:20):
these comments about how you know, Kurt didn't really respect
his bandmates and that he looked at as as as
like a one man show. Essentially, I mean that stuff
must have especially rankled his bandmates in Nirvana. But again,
it's just like it's interesting because like, on one hand,
you I can see their perspective, but it's also like
Corny loves his wife, Like, you know, that's that's her husband.

(25:40):
I feel like there's a different standard there in terms
of like what she's allowed to talk about in an interview. Uh. Again,
it's just like part of the messiness of these types
of situations because you're dealing with Kurt Cobain as basically
as a product on one hand, like the most valuable
product of this company that they formed, but he was
also a human being, you know, and like how do
you grieve a human being but also preserve the financial

(26:03):
viability of the product at the same time. I mean
it seems like that's a big tension right here. Yeah,
it's such a testament to how they all dealt with
grief too. I mean, you know, I guess Courtney sort
of outranked the other two because as his wife rather
than band members. But I don't know. But Chris to,
I mean they were high school friends together with childhood
friends and everything too. Yeah, It's I can definitely see

(26:23):
how they would think it would be really disrespectful for
her to sort of be as open as she was
about their their relationship and dirty laundry. But um, yeah,
I guess at the end of the day, it comes
down to like different people grieve differently and accepting that
I suppose, But yeah, the whole lawsuit didn't really do
much for their interpersonal relationships too, And in Courtney ended

(26:44):
up getting her own way, And there was a single
disc Greatest Hits Uh compilation that came out with the
unreleased Nirvana song and Christmas two thousand two, and things
kind of quieted down for a few years with the
few between Dave and Courtney, and then the Food Fighters
released Echoes, Silence, Patient and Grace in two thousand seven,
and it has the song let It Die, which many

(27:04):
assumed was a sketch of Kurt and Courtney. The lyrics
depict a simple man in his blushing bride intravenous intertwined
you're so considerate? Did you ever think of me? Which
I mean you've got Heroin references in there, and I
always wondered if the did you ever think of me?
It was his sort of plea to Kurt, sort of
not to go um. And Davis has addressed this, and

(27:26):
he's kind of been really enigmatic about what the song
was about. He said he was written about feeling helpless
to someone else's demonitors, which I think there you go, right, there. Yeah,
well then he actually just fled out called her and
pardon me for saying this an ugly fucking bitch. At
one point, didn't he like during a concert around this time?
That is true, Yes, I think it was around that time.
That's a little less a little less poetic, I guess. Yeah,

(27:48):
it's like, if you're going to say that on stage,
like why all the sort of coy answers about the song,
I mean, if you're gonna be I mean, because that's
a pretty brutal thing to say about the widow of
your former bandmate. I mean, that's, uh, that's not the
dave girl, nice guy that we're used to talking about.
But I think it really speaks to I guess the
frustration of this time, you know, just kind of going

(28:09):
through that lawsuit and everything that they had been through
up to that point. Yeah, it's like a hard time
believing it. Like I was like really trying to like
find a video of it or something like it seems
like really a character But yeah, apparently hopefully it's not true.
We'll just put it out there. But it's been often
reported that he said that around that time, and of
course Courtney Love, she hears about this, she's not a
fan of this song. She goes after Dave Grohl, and

(28:33):
I don't know if she took this tack before in
her attacks on Dave Growl, because like at this point
she's basically saying that like he's talking about me all
the time because he's actually like attracted to me, or
like he actually wanted to go out with me. I guess.
She goes like on my Space. That's how long ago
this was. By the way, she does a MySpace post
where she says basically that like, like you're so obsessed

(28:55):
with me, you write all these songs about me all
the time, You've like hit on me, you know, like
when we've been to other And she has this quote
that's pretty funny. She says, he's just a sub mediocre
kind of guy who does this nice guy nonsense nice
guys and quotes. There isn't a word that he could
say that would ruffle my feathers. Honestly, anyway, what a fun,
fabulous special evening. H sub mediocre kind of that that's

(29:19):
up there with Bill Murray calling Chevy Chase a medium
that's like an incredible insult. So again, you know, she's
saying that you know he's a phony essentially that he
is actually not that nice of a guy, but he
has this nice guy image and then also insinuating that
like he's actually into her and and that's why he
keeps talking about her all the time. So, yeah, things

(29:39):
have really reached another like new low at this point. Yeah,
but then we get to probably my favorite wrinkle in
the Day of Kurtney feud, which is in two thousand nine,
uh Day have licensed Kurt Cobain's likeness to Guitar Hero
video game Guitar Hero and uh and you can play
Kurt Cobain playing smells like teen Spirit, he's dressed and

(29:59):
just like video which, okay, that's fine, but there's a
bonus feature in this game where you could make Kurt
play all the other available songs in this game, which
means that there are scenes where Kurt Cobain could be
seen rocking out Till You Give Love a Bad Name
and Billy Idol tracks and those clips of this on
YouTube and it is actually genuinely jarring and shocking to see.

(30:21):
It's really weird, and fans of course were up in
arms over this. And then both Courtney and the surviving
members of Nirvana basically point their fingers at each other,
saying it was them, was their fault. Yeah, Courtney. She
goes on this basically just tear on Twitter two tweets
about this guitar hero thing, and one of the more
memorable tweets, she says, you can ask rape Dave. He

(30:44):
was always a bad seed. And it is still reading
the ship while I take bullets. If there's a hell
he's going, I'm not, Um, I feel like there should
be some punctuation in there. It's a little hard to
read for me. Um. Look, I have to say, like
this is repulsive to me that like you can sell
the likeness of someone who's no longer living and put
him in a video game and just make him do

(31:04):
like whatever you want. Like it just seems so wrong
to me. I guess, like like David Chris, like they
basically said, like, well, we didn't know that they were
going to do this, And I think they asked a
guitar hero to basically like lock the image so that
he can only play Nirvana songs. But even then I
just find that so weird, Like why would you do that?
I just think there's like something really wrong about let's

(31:27):
gonna get worse with all the all the deep fakes
and all the hologround. It's gonna get so much worse
man like in the coming years. But yeah, they basically
were like, we just said that you could use the music.
Like the likeness and stuff was all Courtney. That's all
you know, she is the head of his estate. That's all.
That's all her doing. I mean, did anyone to own
up to this. Did anyone ever say like, oh, this
is my fault or did they just say like, no,

(31:48):
it was the other person? Is that how that ended?
I think the video game company was like, no, we
worked really closely with Courtney. She like chose what alfab
he was going to wear and everything, and she was
actually really great to work with. It sounds like, I mean,
she was the one who was actually the point of
person with the video game company. And my guess is
that she just wasn't aware of the stuff she was signing,
which I mean, you know, sounds that that holds water

(32:10):
that she wasn't sure that it was actually going to
be this like special feature where you could play all
these other songs that Kurt would never be never be
cut in a million years playing. So it seems like
the pattern that we've had so far is that Dave
Grohl will write a song in which he vaguely refers
to Courtney Love, or you have the instance of the
Howard Stern interview where he's directly impugning her artistic contributions

(32:33):
to her own records. But the next step in this
battle occurs, and now it's Courtney Love being the instigator.
Oh yeah, this is brutal. It's mid concert at the
SWU festival in Brazil and a fan holds up a
picture of Kurt Cobain in front of Courtney, which I
guess could be triggering. I mean, you know, it's it's
probably still upsetting. I imagine. Yeah, that's not a cool

(32:54):
thing to do. It's like her husband, You don't need
to bring it to a show. What are you doing?
Absolutely yeah. However, this provoked a very lengthy tirade from Courtney,
who said it was stupid and rude, which it was,
and that she has to live with his ghost every day,
which is horrible, and that she was going to beat
the funk out of the dude if he held up
that picture. Again. Very Courtney Love. By this point, she

(33:14):
was rolling and she just really started to unload. You know,
you weren't looking married to him. I was. But then
this all scans to this point. But then she rounds
on Dave. You weren't kicked out of a band by him,
like Dave. It's just an amazing way to segue into
an insult by telling a crowd that, like Kurt Cobain
kicked Dave Grol out of Nirvana, She's to go see

(33:36):
the fucking Foo Fighters and do that ship. I don't
care what you listened to at home, but if a
guy takes money off my kid's table, fuck him. So
I don't know how Dave Grol got in the middle
of that. It was just sort of like a she
was just like a stream of consciousness rant and all
of a sudden she's taking shots at Dave Grohl. But
I mean, this is a narrative in the in the
Nirvana story, this idea of like if Nirvana had somehow

(33:56):
carried on, would Dave Grohl have you ether been fired
from the band or if he would have left the band?
And look I am of I'm of the opinion that
like Nirvana became the world conquering Nirvana when Dave Grohl
joined that like if he hadn't been the drumaly, I
don't think that never Mind would have been as successful
as it was. Like if you listen to some of

(34:18):
those songs played like with different drummers, like, it doesn't
sound like the record, it doesn't sound like I mean,
there's still good songs. It's and I love Bleach, I
love you know, the songs Zone and Sesticide. But there's
no question that like the arena rock Nirvana, you know,
the pop rock Nirvana just gained so much from the
power and precision that Dave grol brought to the proceedings.

(34:39):
And I mean he's really like one of my favorite
drummers of all time. I Mean the downside to me
of the Food Fighters is that Dave Grohl doesn't play
drums that much anymore. And I just love him as
a drummer. But it does seem like there was some
truth to the idea that Dave Grohl was considering leaving
because Kurt Cobain would make disparaging comments about his drumming.
There's a story from Dave Girl's biography where I guess

(35:03):
Dave roll overheard uh Kurt Cobain complaining about Dave's shitty drumming,
which is insane to me that you called Dave Girl
a shitty drummer, but like he wanted a girl to
play more like Dan Peters from Mud Honey, basically to
be more of like a punk rock drummer. I think, really,
Kurt Cobain, I think his problem with Dave girls drumming
wasn't that it was shitty is it was that it
was too slick probably or it was like too good.

(35:25):
I think he actually wanted a shitty drummer and he
was mad that Dave Row actually wasn't shitty. Um. But
I don't know, I mean, I don't know how you
feel about this. I think this is like a thought
experiment that all Nirvana fans play that if Nirvana had
continued with Dave Roll stay in the band, Because obviously
he was already writing the songs that would be on
the first Food Fighters record, and he had a much
different sensibility from Kurt Cobain. It's hard for me to

(35:48):
imagine that he would have stayed. I mean, because he
was writing great songs, I don't think they would have
really fit in the context of Nirvana. I just feel
like he probably would have been out like in a
university of Nirvana stays together in the nineties, I feel
like would have been out by Like, yeah, it's so
interesting because it's like you can't really trust what he
says now because it's just the revisionism and everything is

(36:09):
so strong. Given what happened to Kurt. He gave an
interview to Howard Stern a couple of years ago where
he was basically asked this was and he said, yeah,
I was writing songs, but Nirvana was great. I was
happy just being a drummer, and I didn't want to
interfere with what Kurt was doing, which I just I
find that impossible to believe. I don't know, I just
see him as like this George Harrison figure of like

(36:30):
bursting with ideas and potential, being stuck in this thing that, yes,
is hugely successful, but really doesn't allow him any kind
of outlet whatsoever. I mean, maybe he would start contributing
songs to Nirvana. Maybe he would have his own side
project as the Food Fighters, which you know, I think
then would definitely be you know, second Banana to Nirvana, obviously,

(36:52):
uh and probably way less. You know, he probably would
would put out a quarter or the number of albums
that he's released, because I imagine energy would go to
Nirvana all that time. Uh yeah, it's tough to say.
I can't imagine he would stick around. Yeah, and if
there was already negativity anyway coming from Kurt about his playing,
it just seems like, I don't know, it's hard for

(37:13):
me to imagine Dave doing that. But getting back to
that Brazil show where Courtney just went off about, you know,
sparked by the Kurt Cobain photo. She didn't interview after
that concert where she picked up the attack on Dave
Grohl like she went after him again. Yeah, she just
keeps rolling. She says that Dave didn't write a single
note for the band, and she said, I wasn't in Nirvana. However,

(37:36):
I do own Nirvana, which is such an amazing mic
drop with my daughter, she adds um and then she
starts complaining about how it's not fair that that Dave
has a Nirvana Inc. Credit card that he can buy
you know, acid, Martin's on and stuff. And meanwhile he's
getting five million dollars a show that you know, why
is he such a big player in the Nirvana legacy

(37:56):
when he didn't write anything and Kurt owns a d
percent of the published was her? Was her? So yeah,
we're in the era now where you know, we've moved
out of the era where Dave Grol was writing veiled
insults at Courtney Love, and now we're in the era
where Courtney Love is just doing both barrels at Dave
Grole seemingly in every interview. And we get to and

(38:17):
I feel like, you know, we've talked about you know,
this ribbalty reaching like new lows at every step of
the way. This is the lowest of the low, I think.
At this point, so Courney Love, she goes on another
like multi tweet thread just railing at Dave Role, where
she accuses Grole of hitting on Francis Bean. I mean,
did she say that it went beyond that? I think

(38:39):
she said it went beyond that, Yeah, I think so.
I think the word used was seduced, I believe man.
So that's implying that there was some sort of physical
relationship between Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain's very young daughter,
And of course Dave Growl immediately denies this, as does
Francis been. Francis Bean actually has like the most devastating
response to this where she says Twitter should ban my mother.

(39:03):
After this, I think she says, like, you know, I
have never been approached by Dave Row and more than
a platonic way, I'm in a monogonous relationship and very happy,
and just refers to her as my biological mother, which
I think is a pretty devastating term. And I think
Cortney Love eventually retracted that, but that's like another thing
where I wonder where that came from. It just seems

(39:24):
so random, like to bring that up just purely to
hurt I don't know. And then like that's what's so
terrible with these kind of like social media accusations. I mean,
you can retracted, but you know it's still out there,
like you still Google that, and that's still a thing
that comes up, like it's still in people's heads and everything,
and the retraction is almost beside the point too. You know,
that's definitely too little, too late, especially in like the

(39:47):
digital social media age too. Is Yeah, I can only
imagine it's purely just to lash out. So now that
we're at the lowest point of this episode, it's time
to bring up the Muppets. Yes, here we go. This
is the same year. This is Courtney hits out at
Dave for letting smells like teen Spirit be used in
the Jason Segel Muppet movie that I never asked for,

(40:08):
I want ever asked for. She was talking to the
Daily News and she said, we got no money from
the Muppets. We got nothing. It made Jason Segel feel special.
But Dave knows Kurt wouldn't have wanted to be a Muppet.
Let's have a little fought experiment for a moment, Stephen.
Do you think that Kurt would ever have wanted to
be a Muppet? You know, I think he probably would
have liked that. Actually, you know, and again he was

(40:29):
in the Weird Owl exactly. He let Weird Owl do
the was I smells like Nirvana parody? Yeah, I think
he would have looked at the Muppets as being this
sort of lovable product of his youth, you know, which
I think is different than the guitar hero thing that
was a little more crass to me, whereas the Muppets,
like everyone loves the Muppets, there was a childlike thing

(40:50):
to Kurt Cobain too. I think he appreciated, you know,
like kids and and kid culture. So I have no
idea how he would have felt, because again, this was
what I think twenty years after he died. So we're
all speculating on what deceased Kurt Cobain would think of
the Muppets. But I'm I'm going on the pro side
for that. Um, this is for those of you just
joining us, we're speculating on weather Cobain would like to

(41:12):
have been in the Muppets. Uh. This all is leading
up to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction
which occurs, and it seems like, you know, after all
of this negativity that's been going on for for twenty years,
that there's a fairly sudden like about face, like for
all the parties involved. Like Courtney Love tells a story
about how you know, she was there at the ceremony

(41:32):
with Francis Been. She said that she hadn't even like
seen or talked to Dave or Chris in twenty years,
and apparently they didn't even talk at the funeral, which
seems really sad crazy to me. But apparently everyone they
ran into each other, as these things often happened there
there by the bathroom, and they run into each other
and they just decide to suddenly put aside all this

(41:54):
bad blood and they hug it out and they end
up having like a really nice night at the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame and Auction, And it seems
like that is the turning point of this relationship, like
where after just sniping at each other for so long,
everyone all of a sudden is putting the guns down
and deciding to be friends again twenty years. I mean,
do you really think that it was just purely I'm
tired of carrying this around anymore. I'm we're all about,

(42:17):
you know, in our fifties now, like about to be
I just I can't handle this anymore. Let's just let's
just end it. Or do you think that there was
some kind of like other more not to be cynical,
but more business minded reason why things were untangled? You know,
I mean it's impossible to say. I mean, I I
do think that there is something when you get older

(42:37):
where if you're carrying around all this negative bag, it's
just not good for you. I mean, I think any
psychologists would say that you know these things can only
you know they can hurt your health. They can hurt
your mental health. So there may have been an instinct
there to just like like bygones, be bygons and move forward.
But yeah, you know, all the parties involved must realize
that Nirvana to this day, I mean, they are this

(43:00):
incredibly profitable brand, and for all of the weird things
that have happened with Nirvana over the years, you know,
like not even the guitar hero thing could really detract
from the credibility that Nirvana has. You know, they're like
the rare, like nineties alt rock band that I feel
like younger generations embrace. Like each new generation of kids,
it seems like, gets into Nirvana. So yeah, maybe on

(43:21):
some level they all realize, like we're going to have
to deal with each other for a long time, like
let's make this good. Yeah, let's work together and make
up a jillion dollars. You know, like what do we
have to be upset about at this point. That's pretty
much where it's at now. I mean, they're they're they're
joint custodians of Kurt's legacy, and they're defending it from
the likes of I guess like KFC and board Games
another corporate interests, and I guess in Courtney and the

(43:44):
surviving members of Nirvana fouled a joint lawsuit against Mark Jacobs.
So now there, as is so often the case in
music industry, awards, ceremonies and lawsuits, made friends of foes. Yes,
so heartwarming. We're gonna take a quick break and get
a word from our sponsor when we get to more rivals.

(44:10):
All right, we've now reached the part of the episode
where we give the pro side for each part of
the rivalry. Let's talk about Dave Grol. First. Look, Dave Grohl.
You can't dispute the success that he's had both in
Nirvana and and Food Fighters. And I mean we take
it for granted now that Food Fighters are just like
this stadium rock band, like the I think, the epitome
of mainstream rock at this point. But you know, it

(44:32):
seemed pretty unlikely Dave Role would have a thriving solo career.
I mean, I feel like there were a lot of
doubters at that time that you know that the drummer
of this band would end up being a huge rock star.
And Grol has proven all the skeptics wrong. I mean,
he's had an incredible career. Like I said before, he
is the mayor of rock music. You know, he does

(44:52):
have this status. You call him that the Tom Hanks
of rock music. He does have this status of everyone
liking him, even though you might make jokes about always
seeing him on awards shows. It seems like whenever an
award show needs like a token rocker, they call up
Dave Grohl, and Dave Roll shows up five minutes later
with a guitar. He's always down. He's always down. Uh,
you know, we can make jokes about that, but you know,

(45:14):
he is an ambassador for rock music and I appreciate
that about him, And he does seem like a genuinely
good guy. And he's a member of two of the
most successful rock bands of the last thirty years, So
to me, his legacy seems pretty air tight. Yeah, he
seems to be one of those, like one of the
few rock stars who seems to get genuinely touched by fans.
Like I feel like that just comes across in because

(45:35):
he's famous for for being, you know, nice guy, Dave Grohl,
And uh, there is millions of examples of like a
garage band and some small town some they broke some
noise ordinance and then Dave Grohl wrote a letter to
the local town council begging them to let these young
young musicians practice because this is their workspace, because you know,
young artists starting out. Every not everybody can afford a

(45:56):
soundproof studio. We need this for music. I mean just
things like that. And like when the there was a
mining disaster and I guess some of the miners that
were trapped down the mine wanted an iPod filled with
Food Fighters songs that kind of helped them through. And
Dave heard about this and invited them backstage to the
next Food Fighters show when they got out for multiple
beers and became friendly with him, and then even immortalized

(46:17):
them in the track The Bottle of the Beaconsfield Miners.
I just, I don't know, I feel like the authenticity
to him is just off the charts. I feel like
he gives this like sort of I would die for
rock and roll feeling, which is you know, maybe you
could say it's Naiven kind of corny, but it just
seems so so true and real. It's heartening. Yeah, I'm
totally I buy into the Dave Grohl like charisma, mr.

(46:40):
Nice guy thing. I think he's the best. And you
know I've said this before, and I really mean it that.
You know, as much as I appreciate the albums that
he's made with Food Fighters, I do get said that
he's not playing drums in a rock band right now.
I mean, like when he was with Queens of the
Stone Age, I thought that was incredible. Like I wish
he just would have stayed with there, or like make
another Them Good Vultures record. You know, you can just

(47:01):
wail on drums. I mean, he really is a monster
of the drums are just a monster musician in general.
So that's David probably with the flip side of that too,
and the fact that he plays everything, I mean every
every instrument on that first Food Fighters record, I think
that needs to be recognized to I mean that's insane.
I mean that's in a class with like, you know,
McCartney and you know, maybe not Prince level and Stevie
wanted for virtuosity, but still that that level of talent

(47:23):
to be able to play everything like that is is nuts.
I's want to shout that out too. So moving over
to the pro Courtney Love side, and you know, we
haven't explored this a lot in this episode, but like
these two really are such great contrast. Even if you
remove the Nirvana element, because I think Dave Role has
an image that I think is like pretty carefully curated.
You know, I do agree with you that I think

(47:44):
he's authentically a nice guy and authentically loves rock and
roll and all those things. But I think he does
care about what people think about him, and he acts
a certain way in public to you know, never show
his dark side. Really, you know, he's pretty unflappable in
his image. And then you have Courtney Love, who is
the opposite of that, and she lets it all hang out.
She is proudly a mess. She proudly shows off her contradictions,

(48:07):
and I love that about her. I really respect that,
And to me, she's like a throwback to the old
school type of rock star, the rock star that you
really don't see all that much anymore because we live
in a more sort of socially media sanctioned age, like
where people are analyzing everything you do and you kind
of have to be more perfect, and Courtney Love is like,
I am going to show you all my flaws, and

(48:29):
as we've talked about in this episode, I think it's
really hard to just put her in anyone's slot. I
think it's definitely true that she was a victim of
sexism in her career and also in her dealings with Nirvana.
And I also think it's true that she was a
very ambitious person who sees an opportunity to put herself
in the spotlight, and she's done that throughout her career,
and I don't criticize her for that. I actually think

(48:51):
she's always been pretty canny and I always appreciate seeing
her in the spotlight. I will read any Courtney Love interview,
I will watch any televised appearance that she's on, because
she is going to be interesting, even when she's infuriating,
you know, she's never boring. So I really tip my captor.
And also, I mean it must be said that she
was Kurt Cobain's wife, and she's the mother of his child,

(49:14):
and I think in the context of Nirvana, that does
give her a considerable stature that should be respected. You know,
even if she wasn't in the band. You know, as
far as we know, you know, Kurt Cobain would have
wanted her to be in this position in his place.
So I think if you respect Kurt Cobain, you have
to also afford that respect to Corney Love. That's really
well said. I mean, and I also feel like she's

(49:35):
acted out in all the ways that a lot of
her male music will counterparts are romanticized for. But instead
of that, she's been you know, miscast is a sort
of caricature, which I think is a disservice to her music,
which is, you know, incredibly strong. And she's such an
inspiration to generations now of of women in music who
were looking for, you know, a strong, decisive, confident woman

(49:57):
who unapologetically challenges the notion of what femininity is in music.
And I think that she's such an important figure for that.
And you know, even her dark sides, you really got
to wonder how much of sort of the chip on
her shoulder was born from just all the ship that
she got from Nirvana fans. I mean, she was not
exactly embraced not only by the band but by fans
with open arms. And you almost have to wonder how

(50:19):
much she just self reflexively just put up this like
rock hard front of just you know, fuck you to
the world. Uh, as a result of that, because I'm
sure all those things. There's the scene in the montage
of Heck when uh, when she's reading an angry letter
from a Nirvana fan after she was on the cover
of some magazine with Kurt about how, oh yeah, that dirty,

(50:41):
nasty Courtney woman running her big fat mouth makes me
want to puke. I mean, just having to deal with
that for years and years. You really gotta wonder how
much of that factored into sort of the you know,
all the acting out that she would do in later
years too. So when we talk about these two together,
I mean, look, they're stuck together. Okay, they are both
uh you know, in charge of this again very successful brand,

(51:04):
you know, that people still care about, and after fighting
for so long, it seems like they finally just accepted
that we're going to be together whether we like it
or not, so we might as well figure out a
way to get along. And uh, you know, it seems
like they're friendly making it work. Yeah. I always kind
of think of it as, uh, you know, like parents
who went through really bad divorce but now are actually

(51:25):
able to put on like a good face for the kids. Uh.
In this case, ust the Neirvana fans are kids in
this metaphor, I guess. But it's it's good that she
made a joke on on some interview where she was saying, like,
all right, maybe me and Dave will do a do
it on Islands in the Stream or something like that.
Like I don't think there's ever gonna be any kind
of musical union, but the fact that they can at
least be in a room together and not uh not

(51:47):
flip the table, I think is I'm thankful for that. Well,
Jordan's I'm always thankful that we can talk about Rivals
on this show. We can both come as we are
if we will, as Rivals fans and and talk about
all these beefs and the delvi into it for people's enjoyment.
Each week. These puns are getting better and better. At
the end of every episode, I gotta I feel like
I was stretching on this pond. But that's okay because

(52:09):
we've reached the end of the episode. Leave us a review,
let us know if you like the ponds or not.
If actually, if you don't like the ponds, we're probably
going to continue to do them anyway, So just the
warning there, but thank you again for joining us on
this episode of Rivals. Will be back with more beefs
and feuds and long swimming resentments next week. Rivals is

(52:31):
a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are
Shawn ty Toone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are
Taylor chi Con and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel
hat Stat. I'm Jordan run Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden. If
you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us
a review. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit
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listen to your favorite shows.