Their Greatest Feuds (1971-75): The Eagles Part 1

Welcome to our epic three-part series on all of the beefs, feuds, and simmering resentments that occurred inside one of the most successful bands in history, The Eagles. In part one, we cover the band's early years, which included multiple battles inside the band and out. First, there was the feud with Glyn Johns, the super producer known for working with the best British bands of the era who resisted Glenn Frey's urge to rock. Then there was Bernie Leadon, the genius instrumentalist who couldn't help but pour a beer on Glenn's head. And then there's sweet Randy Meisner, who was driven out of The Eagles because he wasn't "alpha." As an added bonus, we also cover The Eagles vs. Rolling Stone softball game. Yeah, that actually happened!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Revals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
and Welcome to Rivals, the show about beefs and feuds
and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and I'm

(00:21):
Jordan's and welcome to part one of our three part
episode on the Eagles. Saga now ordinarily represent a fairly
straightforward face off, but this episode is more like a
battle royal with multiple adversaries, multiple alliances, and enough spite
and bile. The Torpedo one of the most successful bands
in history. UH today We're gonna focus on the first

(00:41):
part of the Eagle's career, would solve the departure of
two of the band's founding members, the original producer Glenn John's,
and a feud with the pre eminent rock magazine in
the country. I gotta say, as much as I love
the eagles songs, I might love their story even more
than their music. I think that this whole series has
kind of been building to this episode. I think yes.
I'm reminded of the found words of Joe Walsh in

(01:02):
the classic documentary The History of the Eagles. As you
live your life, it appears to be anarchy and chaos,
and later when you look back at it, it looks
like a finely crafted novel. How's that for a Joe
Alston pression. I'm not incredible. I've been I've been work
shopping that for a while. That quote, to me is

(01:24):
the Eagle Story in a nutshell. All of this crazy
stuff happened, and in retrospect it seems like this grand
Shakespearean saga. You have big egos, cocaine, greed, cocaine, power struggles, cocaine,
bitter breakups, cocaine, and have I mentioned cocaine yet? Jordan's
what I love about The Eagle Story is that it's

(01:45):
not really just a story about one band. It's really
a microcosm of how the music industry Los Angeles and
even America overall changed from the late sixties to the
early eighties, from the idealism of the hippie era to
the self interest of the yuppi age. I really believe
at centuries from now, historians will study this band in
order to understand the moral and ethical collapse of the

(02:06):
United States in the second half of the twentieth century.
And I believe we're starting that work with this series. Ja.
It's important work, and you're right, I mean We've seen
blood feuds before, We've seen especially feuds among family members.
We've seen brutal rap disc tracks. We've seen lengthy and
costly legal spats. But I don't think there's been a
more cutthroat musical outfit than the Eagles. Like it's almost

(02:28):
like an episode of Survivor. I mean, you've got Don
Henley and Glenn Fry, and they have blown through a
truly impressive number of bandmates and associates, and I'm consistently
impressed that they're well documented internal strife hasn't completely undermined
their you know, comparatively laid back musical legacy of peaceful,
easy feelings. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that
several members of the Eagles have checked into the band

(02:49):
and proven that you can, in fact leave, even when
it's not of your own volition. A little Hotel California
reference there for you. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
We have so much to exp bloor in savor here,
So without further ado, let's get into this mess. You
gotta start with Glenn Fry, the original ringleader. The Eagles

(03:10):
were initially his vision and fueled by his ambition, and
he was born and raised in Detroit, where his early
piano lessons were subverted in the early rock and roll
ventures after seeing the Beatles on ed Sullivan like so
many of his generation, and one of his earliest public
appearances was at a frat party when he marched up
to the party band playing and demanded that they play
Satisfaction and then he commandeered the lead vocal spot which

(03:31):
I feel like it is pretty indicative of a character
we're dealing with. No, Yeah, Glenn did not take it easy.
He's and he had a taste for the spotlight. He
liked it. He played with a few local R and
B bands with Great Sixties names, groups with names like
the Mushrooms and the Heavy Metal Kids, but he eventually
fell into the wing of a slightly older Detroit musician

(03:51):
named Bob Seeger, and you can hear him singing on
Bob Seegers Ram when Gambler Man in the background, and
he almost joined Seegers band as a bassist, but his
plan was thwarted when his mother caught him smoking pot
and I guess put the kai bosh on that whole
plan of him joining Seeger's band, But Secret became an
important mentor for young Glenn because he really encouraged him

(04:11):
to start writing his own music. You know, after the Beatles,
that was really the way that you made your name
as a musicians that you had to write your own
material too, And so uh Segre really gave him important
encouragement as a young musician. So by ninety eight, Glenn
moves from Detroit to Los Angeles like so many musicians
of his generation, and the first guy he meets in
l A is j D. South There. Now. J D,

(04:32):
to me is like one of the coolest guys in
the orbit of the Eagles. He seems really smart, laid
back Texas guy. He did it like Linda rons that
for a couple of years, which to me makes you
a god just by itself. He was like a really
good songwriter. I happened to be a fan of his
self titled solo debut, which came out around the time
of the first Eagles record. But JD never really became

(04:54):
a star. He was more like a background figure in
the Eagles story. He ended up being a core songwriting
tributor to the band. He was a big part of
hits like new Kid in Town and Best of My
Love and a bunch of other songs. And it's interesting
to me that he was like never like a member
of the Eagles, and I wonder if on some level
he was just smart enough to like stay out of

(05:16):
this mess, you know, that he knew, maybe he had
a premonition that like this was going to be just
like a snake pit, and maybe he'd be better off
on the periphery where he could, you know, get the
benefits of associating with these guys and their status as well,
exactly all the money that he made from contributing to
Eagle songs, but he wouldn't have to do with like
a lot of the bullshit of this band. But I'm

(05:36):
getting ahead of myself with that, getting back into I
guess the timeline here. Around nineteen seventy, Glenn and Don
they put out a record under the name Long Branch
Petty Whistle, which is this folk rock duo and I
think can be fairly described as like a rough draft
for the Eagles. You know. It has that again, that
laid back country rock sound, but the songs aren't quite there,

(05:58):
and for Glenn to get to where he needs to go,
he's gonna need to find another partner. In addition to
j D and luckily he soon meets another guy from
Texas named Don Henley. Don Henley was born in Lynden,
Northeastern Texas, the birthplace of t bone Walker and Scott
Choplin great musical legacy. Uh Don got to start playing
Dixieland jazz, and while he was a student at North

(06:20):
Texas State, he was in a band called Felicity, which
if you've heard it's really kind of interesting. You can
hear it on YouTube. They released a single in nineteen seven,
I think one of Don Henley's first songs he ever wrote,
called all Try It, and the b sides called Hurton
and you can hear it's the unmistakable voice of Don
Henley and it's kind of cool. It's got this like
Young Rascal's question mark and the mysterions vibe to it

(06:41):
with like weird like Farfisa Oregon and a fuzz guitar.
It's pretty interesting. After they graduated college, they morphed into
sort of more of a country flavor group called Shiloh. Yeah, Shiloh.
They end up moving to Los Angeles at the invite
of Kenny Rogers, and yes it is the Kenny Rogers,
the one that we all know the Gamble or the
fast food Chicken Magnate and uh. At this time, Kenny

(07:05):
was in a band called the First Edition, which you
might know from their song just checked in to see
what condition my condition was in, which I feel like
most like modern audiences know because that songs in The
Big Lebowski, which is kind of funny to me because
we all know how Jeff Lebowski feels about the Eagles.
It's kind of an interesting wrinkle in this story. But anyway,
Kenny Rogers invites Shiloh to come out to Los Angeles.

(07:26):
He produces their self titled debut, which comes out in
nine seventy, and it's similar to the Long Branch Penny
Whistle situation, where it's this country rock band. It has this,
you know, kind of hippie vibe and you can hear
the seas of the Eagles in that band, but you know,
it's not quite slick enough. The songs aren't there. The
lead single from that record was called simple Little down

(07:47):
home rock and roll Love Song for Rosie, which rolls
off the rolls off the tongue and you could you
can see, you know, the contrast between something like that
and songs like take It Easy, whichy woman, these very simple,
straightforward songs that you feel like, you know like the
first time you hear them. So both Done and Glenn
they're sort of again like in rough draft versions of

(08:08):
the band that they're going to form together at this point,
and both of their bands are on the rocks. In
the early seventies, and and Done would recall hanging out
at the Troubadour Club, which you know, the notorious musician
hang out on Santa Monica Boulevard, but it was the
launching path for so many Laurel Canyon acts in the
late sixties and early seventies. And to hear Don tell it,
he was just a sort of sad figure just hang

(08:29):
out at this club, lacking a band and really with
no direction. He said, he didn't know anybody, and he
just was there by himself and kind of pathetic. And
Glenn Fry came over one night, invited him over to
his table and bottom a beer and just kind of said,
you know, hey, what's going on? And they knew each other.
I think both Long Branch, Penny Whistle and Shiloh were
on a small label called Amos Records, so they were
probably on like nodding acquaintance level to each other. But

(08:52):
they got to talk in this one night and it
came out that both their bands were on the rocks
and Long Branch of Penny Whistle were splitting up, and
so with Shiloh and Glenn was sort of the man
with the plan. Don would always say he kind of
knew all the industry figures, if not personally, he knew
of them and he knew the right people to talk to.
He was a lot more, a lot better networking than
Don was at this time. And Glenn's talking about how

(09:13):
he has in roads with Linda Ronstat was about to
go on tour and needed a backing band. So they
go on tour with her, making the two hundred bucks
a week while they kind of get their own musical
project together. Now, when they're on this tour, all the
guys in the band, they end up sharing hotel rooms
in order to save money. So Glenn and Don end
up rooming together on this tour, and this is like
where they really start to bond. And you know, looking back,

(09:35):
they don't really have a lot in common. You look
at Glenn Fry, He's this guy from Michigan. He's very energetic.
He's kind of like a jock. I mean, certainly in
terms of how he carries himself. It's more of like
a jock type stature. I think that he has. He's
very aggressive, very forward, whereas Don, you know, he is
the sensitive literature major. He's more introverted. And it really

(09:56):
is a case of like the quiet guy drawing people in, well,
like the loudmouth kind of repels people. Like there was
this famous quote where someone described Don Henley at this
time having charisma and Glenn Fry having care isn't Mom,
which is like pretty brutal. I think what united these
guys is that they were both ambitious. I mean, Glenn

(10:19):
was I think more sort of upfront about it. But
you know, Don also, I think was just as as
ambitious as Glenn, and I think they saw in each
other that together, maybe we can form a band that
will go the distance. And I think to understand that
you really have to look at the context of the times,
because you know, Don and Glenn they came out of
the nineteen sixties, but I think they had like a

(10:39):
post sixties sensibility and that they were influenced by seeing
what had worked and what didn't work in the previous
generation of bands. You know, they were aware of the
Flying Breeder Brothers and Poco and Dillert and Clark, all
these like you know, brilliant l A based country rock
bands that had just tons of talent, but ultimately like
they didn't have the professional is um or the focus

(11:01):
or the drive to go the distance. Even Crosby Stills,
Nash and Young, who were like the kingpins of Los
Angeles in the early seventies, and if you don't know,
they were also covered on this show in a multi
part series that you're gonna want to check out if
you haven't heard it yet, you know, even C S.
N Y. I think they were hamstrung by not having
a clearly defined hierarchy that kept the operation in line.
And I think all that stuff ultimately influenced Don and

(11:23):
Glenn as they were conceptualizing like what they wanted their
band to be. You know, they wanted to be in control,
they wanted to have a consistent live show. They wanted
to have you know, catchy hit songs that would work
on the radio, and above all, they want to make
a ship ton of money. And you know, they bonded
over these shared ambitions and at some point they decided that,

(11:44):
you know, we don't want to back up Linda run
said anymore. We want to form our own band, which
would have been a problem if Linda Ronstad Like wasn't
the coolest woman on the planet. Oh complete angel. They
tell Linda about their desire to go out on their own,
and she not only agree, but starts giving recommendations of
guys that they should team up with to make this

(12:04):
new band. So she's helping him along and she the
first person she recommends is Bernie Leaden, who had backed
her I think on a previous tour, and he'd come
through the Birds school of l A Rock and he
was playing with Gene Clark and Dillard and Clark, and
more recently he was playing with the Flying Burrito Brothers
on Burrito Deluxe and they're self titled ninety one album.
And he was a crucial figure in the burgeoning l

(12:26):
A country rock scene because he played not only guitar,
but pedal steel and banjo and mandolin and b benders.
He really had that country flare down. And then Linda
also recommended another member of her backing band roster, Randy Meisner,
and he was this basis with the Sky High Falsetto,
and he came through the Buffalo Springfield School of l
A Rock. He was playing in Poco with Richie Fay

(12:48):
and Jim Messina before joining Ricky Nelson's group, the Stone
Canyon Band. And the version of the story that I heard,
although I've heard different versions, was that Linda arranged for
Bernie and Randy to come back and back her first
show at Disneyland in July one, just so that Don
and Glenn could see what it was like playing with
them and see how they jailed in. It jailed very well.

(13:08):
That was the first line of the Eagles. So they
ended up getting a deal with David Geffen on his
label Asylum. And I think it's worth noting that like
Bernie Leaden was the most forward with David Geffen at
this point, Like he basically like walked into David Geffen's
office and said do you want us or not? And
like Geffen did, like he could see the potential of
this group. And I think that speaks to how Bernie

(13:29):
Laden at this point seems like the most important member
of the band in a way, like he had the
best pedigree he had played like with Graham Parsons. He
had played in The Birds. You know, he was a
connection to that sixties l a rock scene that the
Eagles were coming from. So Geffen signs the Eagles and
he sends them off to Aspen to basically just like
play in bars and get their act together. And by

(13:51):
the way, we're gonna be talking a lot more about
David Geffen in his relationship with the Eagles in a
future episode, which I'm very excited to do. I think
David Geffen is a fast and aiding character and all
the shenanigans with him and irving A's off and like
him telling Don Henley that I'd rather die than let
you fuck me like that great moment. Anyway, I don't
want to spill all the beans of that episode. There's

(14:11):
a lot to get into there, but there's a lot there.
For now, we're just gonna kind of keep David Geffen
in the background of the Eagles story. The Eagles aren't
Aspen and they're rehearsing, and Glenn has the idea that
he wants Glenn John's to produce their first record. Now,
who is Glen John's, Well, if you don't know who
Glen John's is you haven't looked at the liner notes
of some of the biggest classic rock records of all time.

(14:33):
This is the guy who worked with the Rolling Stones
in the sixties, he worked with the Beatles, he produced
Who's Next for the Who. He worked with Led Zeppelin
on all their classic records. He's basically like mr. Classic rock,
especially of like the British variety. So to be like
a young band and to say I want Glenn John's
to produce our record, it's a pretty ballsy thing to do,

(14:55):
wouldn't you say? Yeah? No, I mean especially yeah for
these neophyte l A country guys. Also really interesting because
his sort of sound is really nothing like what the
embryonic Eagles sounds like. To like, it was definitely it
was an interesting choice. Yeah. I think it speaks to
how Glenn probably had a different view of the Eagles
than what they actually were. I think he already thought

(15:17):
of them as this like rock and roll machine, when
in reality they were this like kind of pleasant country
rock band. And when Glenn John's comes out to Aspen
to see them, that is his impression basically that he
sees them playing like in this Aspen bar, and you
know they're playing these sort of like lame Chuck Berry
derived rockers and you know, kind of like nice but

(15:39):
not especially distinguished, you know, country songs, and you know,
Glenn Johnson later said, you know, I thought they were confused,
Like Glenn Fry wanted to be in a rock band
and Bernie Leaden, you know, was one of the greatest
acoustic players in l A at that point. So he
walked away and he wasn't all that impressed. David Geffen
keeps pushing for Glenn John's to give the Eagles another chance.

(16:01):
So Glenn John's hops back on a plane, goes you know,
from England to Los Angeles, and he's watching an Eagles rehearsal,
and at first he's like feeling like he didn't Aspen.
He doesn't really hear anything that leads them to want
to work with this band, and then during a break,
they end up harmonizing on this Randy Riiser song called
Take the Devil. And when Glenn John's here's those like

(16:24):
l a country rock harmonies, that's when it all clicks
into place for him, and that's when he decides that
he's going to produce this band. And I think like
from his perspective. He really did look at them as
like an extension of the Flying Burrito Brothers or even
like of the Beach Boys. I mean, I think that
in terms of like the l a rock lineage. I
think the early Eagles were like a harmony band in

(16:44):
the tradition of the Beach Boys, and and even like
the Birds to some degree. But this really does like
set up like the first big feud of the Eagles
story between the Eagles and I guess mainly Glenn Fry
and Glenn John's because you know, Glen John's is gonna
produce that first record, They're gonna have some hits on it.
But as they progress on, like the next, the record
after that, and the third record, there's gonna be this

(17:04):
tension between how Glenn john sees them, which is as
this country rock band, and how Glenn Fry wants this
band to be, which is like more of like a
rock band. And Glenn John's. Let's you mentioned he's a
very big deal and he has very specific ways that
he goes about producing records, and he likes his control
and why not because because it works, It clearly works,

(17:26):
and uh, the band really didn't want to be dictated
to in such a strict way. I mean, Don Henley
talks about how he didn't agree with how Glenn was
making his drums up. He miked him like he was
making John Bonham. And Don wanted every single individual drum
on the kit mike individually so you could get a
better control in the mix. And Glenn would say, you
know you want it louder, play louder, which is what

(17:47):
he'd say to Bonham. And then same with with Glenn
Fry when if he's saying he would put this echo
on Glenn's vocal and Glenn hated it, and Glenn John's
was saying, well, that's my trademark, Like that's that's you
want me to bruce your record, That's how I like
my vocals to sound. That's what I do. And so
and they really, I mean, not only were they disagreeing
with sort of broad strokes like this is the kind

(18:08):
of band we want to do, but just individual nuts
and bolts how they put the songs together. They were
really budding heads at at every turn. And also, you know,
a very early seventies rock band problem to Glenn had
a really dim view of drinking and drug taking in
the studio. I mean, this was He's well into his
career at this point and he had lost many, many
many hours in days to you know, Keith Richards and

(18:29):
so many other rock and rollers just you know, being
being stoned out of their mind of being unable to work.
So we had a very strict no drugs policy in
the studio, which really piste off Glenn Fry in particular.
He just thought he was like a schoolmarm. I think
that was the word he used. I mean, they just
really were very different planes. Their debut album, self titled Debut,
was you know, a decent sized success when it was
released in nineteen seventy two, peaked at number twenty two,

(18:51):
and I think eventually went platinum, and it had taken
easy and witchy woman and peaceful, easy feeling. Uh. To me,
this album was more unified and almost any that they
would do later on. I mean, all four members contributed songs,
all four members took lead vocals. Randy Meisner sung more
than Don Henley on this record, which is weird to
think of now, but it's actually one of my favorite

(19:12):
albums on there is. Yeah, it really is like, you know,
the platonic ideal of like the Eagles being a band,
like you said, each member contributing more or less equally,
which is going to be less and less the case,
of course, as the Eagle's career progresses in the seventies.
I want to do like one quick side note about
take it Easy. You know. Of course, that's like one
of the classic Eagles songs. And it's my understanding that

(19:33):
like Jackson Brown like wrote the music, the melody, and
almost all the lyrics, say for one line, which is
it's a girl, my lord and a flatbed forward slowing
down to take a look at me. Like apparently, like
Glenn Fry wrote that lyric and for that he got
a co write, which I guess is normal for songwriting.
I mean to me, like, I'm not a songwriter. I
I feel like that seems like a little weird that

(19:53):
Glenn Fry gets equal credit for this song even though
it was basically Jackson Brown's song. But I feel like
this will become a major theme for the Eagles, you know,
as their career unfolds, like where someone outside of the
band brings in a song and Don and Glenn make
like a relatively minor edition and voi la, they get
a piece of the publishing, you know, like they really
seem like, you know, like Glory Hoggs in a way

(20:14):
they're on top of that very canny, you know, even
though it seems like a little underhanded to me. But anyway,
after the debut and all those hit singles, they decide
on the sophomore record to do what many bands do,
which is to make their art album, and in the
Eagles case, it's a cowboy concept record called Desperado. I

(20:34):
actually think this is like one of their best albums.
Like Eagles, I think they generally made like pretty spotty LPs,
but this one and later Hotel California, for me, hold
together the best as like complete statements, you know, Like
Hotel California. Desperado was centered on an epic title track
sung by Don Henley, where he's really i think coming
into his own as like the voice of the band

(20:55):
on that song. Also, like Hotel California, it's a thinly
viled commentary on them usic industry, which in this case,
you know, the concept of the record is that like
rock stars of the seventies are like the outlaws of
the nineteenth century, which apparently this was suggested by Glenn Fry,
though I wonder like, did youn bond Job ultimately take
that concept the farthest a decade later with Wanted Dead

(21:16):
or Alive and Blaze of Glory. I mean he did
ride the steel horse Jordan's with a loaded six string
on his back. What a line, what a song? Yeah, man,
Eagles and bon Jovi making the connection right there. I
always thought it was really weird that, you know, after
all the fuss about, you know, when they were making
their first album with with John's saying, you know, we
are a rock and roll band, don't try to make

(21:37):
us into this this this country flavored group that they went.
They really leaned into this old West country rock thing.
And on Desperado, I thought that was, like, that was
a choice I wouldn't have expected given how much they
were playing, you know, those chuck Berry riffs and stuff,
but when they first met Glenn John's in Aspen. But
also on the flip side, like you said, it's a
young band making their bid for you know, mature critical praise.

(22:01):
I also really like the fact that the back cover
shows them as playing dead while members of the Law
are standing over their their bodies and the members of
the Law are all their managers and executives and Glenn
John's himself. Yeah that's heavy ship. Yeah, not very subtle.
My really interesting part about the making of the album
was that Glenn he liked this idea and he encouraged

(22:25):
Bernie Leaden to write musical linking themes to link the songs,
to really make it like a concept album. And it
seems like at this time the bond between Glenn John's
and Bernie Leaden was sort of the strongest, which is
actually what started to drive a bit of a wedge
between Bernie and the rest of the band, which happened
more later, is the band lead more into the rock

(22:46):
and roll sound, which wasn't really Bernie's forte really Yeah.
And I think the other thing that really drove away
suddenly between the band and Glen John's was that Desperado
like wasn't a hit, you know. Like in his memoir
sound Man, Glen On notes that like when a record
does well, the artist takes the credit, and when it fails,
it's the fault of the producer. And I feel like

(23:07):
that's basically what happened with Glenn Johns and Desperado. I mean,
it's a little strange now because you know, people look
back on that album and they of course remember the
title track, which is one of the most iconic Eagles songs.
There's also Tequila Sunrise on that record, which ended up,
you know, on the Greatest Hits record, a very famous
Eagles track. So it seems like it was a success,
but like at the time, like it wasn't really successful

(23:30):
at all. I don't think it even broke like the
top forty on the album's chart. And I think they
had a lot to do with like country rock in
general just being like a little played out by then,
like you know, entering the mid seventies that was like
really the prime of arena rock, you know, like led Zeppelin,
The Who, Kiss, Aerosmith, Peter Frampton, and you know, with Desperado,
I think the Eagles were in danger of being sort

(23:53):
of perceived as like like a fixture of like a
bygone era. Like they were fading like a bit at
this time, and it's seems like done and Glenn recognized that,
you know, Glenn already wanted to be a rock band,
but I think they were also starting to see like
the financial necessity to like beef up a little bit
and compete like with the big boys of arena rock.
So this makes them less and less inclined to listen

(24:13):
to Glenn John's and they go back to London to
work on their third album on the Border, and they
really they aren't interested in listening to them anymore for
two reasons. I mean one, the success that they enjoyed
to date really embolded them, and they were less interested
in in cow towing to what Glenn told them. I mean,
Glenn would say, I think it was in his memoir.
They began to be opinionated and less insecure, and they
wanted to have more input on how the records they

(24:35):
made sounded, and they would fight him over things like
vocal echo and drum sounds. So the success in both
of them, and then on the flip side, the failure
of Desperado made them question Glen John's choices even more
is he continued to push him further into this you know, harmony,
country rock, realm and uh. In the History of the
Eagles documentary, they really frame it as almost like a
personal failing on Glenn's part. They're like, we were saying,

(24:57):
you know, he'd been bombarded by loud rock and roll
for so many years, and at this point in his
life he just wanted to be mellow and make mellow
music and you know, take it easy. And the famous
quote from Glenn John's at this time is, you know,
you guys are not a rock and roll band, but
who are a rock and roll band? And you are
not that? And you know he's right. Yeah, I mean,

(25:18):
I think in the case of the Eagles, certainly like
this line with the Eagles like wasn't really like a
strong rock band. They had to add eventually, you know,
Don Felder and especially Joe Walsh, to have that arena
rock just firepower, you know, that would enable them to
make that transition. But yeah, at this point, you know,
they were still kind of on their way to getting
to that point. So the Eagles, like they leave England,

(25:41):
they go back to America, they want to find a
new producer, and they ended up having a meeting with
this guy named Bill Simsic, who at that time was
best known for working with Joe Walsh, who quite I
guess fortuitously was also managed by Irving as Off at
that time. And they had this meeting with Bill and
they asked two questions. They they say, will you let
us have input on how much echo you put on

(26:02):
our records and Bill says yes. And they asked, will
you put a mike on each drum so we can
better control the mix, and Bill says yes to that too,
And of course this is all covered in the documentary.
What isn't quite spelled out in that movie. But I
think was also a plus for Bill Simsic is that
he had a much more permissive attitude about drugs and
alcohol in the studio. And from here on out, Eagles

(26:24):
productions are going to get more and more decadent and
like also take a lot longer, much much longer, which
kind of works for a while, but it's going to
end up derailing them in the future. But like for now,
it's really cool. They're happy with Bill Simsic. I guess
Bill Simpson called Glenn John's before he took the job
and asked for his blessing, and Glenn said, better you
than me producing them, So yeah, I don't think he

(26:44):
was really all that sad to see the Eagles go either. No, now, Glenn,
he had other things to do, all right hand, We'll
be right back with more rivals. So now that the
Eagles could rock out to their hearts content, they realized

(27:07):
they have a logistical problem is that basically, whenever Glenn
Fry wanted to singing rock and roll tune, he had
to hand off lead guitar duties to Bertie Leadon, who
was more of a country bass guitar player. And whenever
one they wanted to do country tinge songs that Bernie sang,
Glenn had to play lead guitar and you know, country
guitar pick and wasn't really his thing. So they realized
that they needed a third guitarist, so they looked up

(27:28):
Dawn Fingers. Felder was great, you know, virtuosic guitar player,
and he came in to play lead on the on
the Border track already gone, and he assumed it was
just you know, a session, and then to his surprise,
the next day he was asked to join and he
also added a slide guitar and good day in Hell too, um,
and he joined that next day and uh, sort of

(27:51):
you know, we'll get into this in the next episode,
but sort of sowed the seeds for the band's uh destruction,
I would say a couple of years later, but we're
getting ahead of ourselves. Yeah, yeah, Felder he ends up
being like one of the most He is the bitterest
rival really for Henley and Fry, and we're gonna see
that in our next episode. But in the short run,
he was exactly what Fry was looking for. He was

(28:12):
the southern rock guitar player in a style like you know,
you could liken him to like a Dwyane Allman or
Eric Clapton, like those were two of the big influences
for Felder. And when he enters the band, I mean,
this is like one of the like truly Shakespearean turns
for me and this story because Don Felder and Bernie
Laden were friends. I mean they both were from Gainesville, Florida,
which is like a crazy fertile city for like rock

(28:35):
and roll. Not only do you have Felder and Leaden,
but that's also the home place of Tom Petty and
Steven Still's Actually like Don Felder was Tom Petty's guitar teacher,
like when Petty was a kid. It's crazy, like how
all these things come together. The narrative with Bernie Laden
is that he didn't like the rocked out sound that
the Eagles are starting to embrace with songs like Already

(28:56):
Gone Now this is a big theme of the documentary.
It gets pounded time and again, and that does seem
true up to a point, but like it kind of
overlooks the fact that, like Bernie Leadon had played rock
and roll in his other bands. You know, Bernie himself
said that he felt like this was oversimplification of his
problems in the Eagles, and he said, like, I played
a gibson less Paul and I enjoyed rock and roll.

(29:17):
That's evident from the early albums. And you know, it's
worth noting that, like he wrote the guitar riff to
which he Woman, which I think is like one of
the coolest guitar riffs in the Eagles canon. So it's
not like he was like just this country purist who
couldn't play rock music at all. I think what was
more the case with Leaden is that he was just
like burned out by this toxic atmosphere in the Eagles.
And I'm sure he was also angry about his diminishing

(29:39):
role in the band. I mean, like I said before,
like he was kind of the man early on in
the Eagles, at least in terms of his reputation as
a player. You know, he had had this great pedigree.
I think that he was a big reason why Glenn
John's ultimately decided to produce them, because he just had
so much respect for his musicianship. And now, like on
the third record, he wasn't even like a second or

(30:00):
third banana in the band, you know, So I think
he could feel that he was in a way being
pushed out, while he was also just feeling like a
lot of discontent with just the vibe of this band.
Tensions boiled over in October nine, backstage during a gig
at the Orange Bowl. Bernie, as you mentioned earlier, I mean,
he was fried by this point. He wanted to take
some time off with the band and uh, and that

(30:22):
was not well received by Dawn and Glenn. Glenn is
backstage talking animatedly about what they're gonna do next, and
he's getting all excited, and Bernie just he can't take
it anymore. He can't resist popping his ego by pouring
a beer over Glenn's head and delivering the immortal line
you need to chill out, man, which you know, I mean,

(30:43):
it seems like something from like American Pie or something like.
It seems like kind of quaint and adorable. He would
later say. Bernie would say that he regretted this in
later years he would kind of have like a non apology.
So oh yeah, that was a that was a very
disrespectful thing to do, something I'm not very proud of,
but pretty much marked his end, the end of his
tenure in the end, and he was replaced I think

(31:05):
like not long later by Joe Walking. I was gonna say,
like when you when you dump a beer on someone's head,
that is like a resignation letter, you know, in in
beer form. Here's no coming back from that, no, I mean,
and this is with his departure and when they got
Joe Walsh, and I mean, the band's transformation from a
harmony group into like a rock or at least a
rockier group was more or less complete. And Glenn would

(31:26):
say in the in the documentary, maybe the vocals won't
be quite as good, but boy, are we gonna kick
some ass. And I guess, to Bernie's amusement, like right
after he uh, he was kicked out, the band did
take a year off, which he always thought was very funny,
just says he'd wanted. And the other thing with Bernie
Leaden is that of all the members of the Eagles.
To me, he seems like the most content in his skin,

(31:49):
at least in terms of like his decision to like
to leave the band, because as we're going to see
with some of the other members that were edged out
of the Eagles, you know, there's like a lot of
bitterness and jealousy and and and content. But it seems
like Leaden, you know, really felt like he did the
right thing and he was happy in his decision. And
of course he also has the benefit of like still

(32:09):
making tons of money from his involvement in the Eagles
without actually having to be around Don Henley and Glenn Fry.
Like he once said, like, you know, I get royalties
on that Greatest Hits record just like it was a
new album. In a way, I'm still part of a
band that goes platinum every year. So in a way,
like Bernie Leaden, he ended up having the best of
both worlds after he left the Eagles, oh totally. And

(32:30):
then there's a part in Glenn in in Don Felder's
book where I guess in the in the early two
thousands or late nineties or something, Bernie comes and like
catches a show and goes backstage and says Hi, and
like it's totally cool and chill, and he like talks
about kind of being jealous about how Bernie's at this
great point in his relationship with the guys in the band,
So yeah, you're I think you're right. I think of

(32:51):
almost everybody in the story, he's the one who came
out of hand and they let in the Eagles, like
actually let Leaden play on their two or the tour
after the History of the Eagles documentary came out. So
it seems like whatever ill will you know existed at
you know, from the beer dumping incident, it seemed like
that was now water or beer sets under the bridge

(33:12):
and they were all cool. By that point. Things are
way less sunny for Randy Meisner, and this whole part
of the story makes me so sad. The eagles next album,
One of These Nights, became the first number one record,
and it contained Take It to the Limit, which contained
Randy's you know, soaring falsetto at the end, and it
became just an instant staple in the band set and
it was it was their concert encore is their big moment,

(33:34):
and uh, Randy really didn't want this big moment in
the spotlight, you know. I mean, he was really fundamentally
a shy, humble guy, and just the pressure of having
the solo spot really wore on him, and he started
to dread it because, for the most part of me,
he was terrified that he wouldn't be able to hit
this crazy high note at the end and let everyone down.
And you know, this was just the most obvious example

(33:55):
of just the pressure that he was coping with being
in this band. He really wasn't cut out to be
in a you know, a mega arena rock group. He
was the beta man in a group of albums. Yeah,
I mean, like I'm sorry to keep quoting Joe Walsh
from History of the Eagles, but like I love that
scene where he says Randy wasn't alpha. I mean, Jesus,

(34:16):
can you imagine being in this band. It's like being
on Like I mean, it's like a high school football team,
just like, oh, the worst in the world, just torturing you,
you know, and taking advantage of like your insecurity. You know,
that's what this band was. Oh absolutely, I mean Randy
was miserable, and I mean just just just the daily

(34:36):
grind of the touring and all that made him miserable
and just the overbearing personalities of Don and Glenn. I
always likened Randy to like Fredo in uh in The Godfather,
and you know, and Glenn is sunny, he's like loud
and quick tempered, and he's like nominally the leader and
he's not afraid to look like an asshole. And then
Don Henley is definitely Michael. He's just this like cold

(34:57):
fury who who you know, actually, you know, you truly
don't want to cross him. But Randy, you know, confrontations
are really hard for him. And then there's some quote
he gave where he says, you know, all I want
to do is see five guys happy playing together, and
it just it breaks your heart, you know. Yeah, and
he would say, you know, as soon as the band
started taking separate limos two gigs, all the camaraderie was lost.

(35:19):
And and you know, in addition to the strain of
living out of a suitcase, and he was coping with
the collapse of his marriage, he coped by partying. Really yeah,
And this all comes to a head at a gig
in Knoxville, Tennessee, in June seven. It's the Hotel California tour.
They've been on the road for like eleven months at
this point, so everyone's pretty fried. And there's like different
stories about like this incident that happened in Knoxville according

(35:42):
to Glenn and Dunn, like Randy apparently had been out
late the night before with a bottle of vodka and
a couple of groupies and like his voice was shot,
and according to Randy, he was having problems. He had
a bad case of the flu. And also, like I says,
Ulster was acting up. By the way, everyone in this
band had ulcers in the seventies, Like if you're biographies,
like Don Glenn has an ulcer, Don Felder is like

(36:04):
having stomach issues. You know, there's this huge band and
like everyone is acting like you know they work for
like a high powered like finance firm or something. You know,
there's no joy to be had at all. Did exactly
so in any event, like Randy Meisner, he doesn't feel
well enough to tackle that high note and take it
to the limit, so he asks for that song to
be taken out the set list and take it to

(36:26):
the limit. Of course, was one of the biggest Eagles
hits at this point. It's a song that the people
in the audience love. So you know, Glenn hears about
this and he gets really angry, and like this incident
is it's broken down in detail in the in the documentary.
The one thing that's like not in the movie is
that Glenn apparently called Randy Meisner a pussy, and like
that is specifically like what set Randy Meisner off. Like

(36:49):
Randy Meisner this like mild mannered country rock dude, like
one of the nicest people in any rock band. He
actually gets angry enough to throw Glen Fry against a
wall and they start going at it, and like it's
apparently like the scuffle got bad enough that like security
guards like tried to intervene, and like Don Henley got
between his bandmates and the security guys and said, stay

(37:11):
out of this. This is personal and private, real fucking private.
That's my favorite quote I think of the entire Eagle
that was me imitating Glenn Fry imitating Don Henley in
the documentary. So eventually they get separated, but like this
this fight ends up really kind of sealing Randy Meisner's

(37:32):
fate in the band. Like he said later that he
was basically like frozen out of the band for the
rest of that tour, and you know, he said, like
no one was talking to me, they wouldn't hang out
with me after shows. I was made an outcast in
a band that I helped to start. And uh, after
the tour he exited the Eagles, and of course the
Eagles they put out the requisite press release saying that

(37:53):
Randy Meisner had exhaustion, which is code for you know,
whatever the case, maybe usually that they're some blowout that
causes a band member to get fired. But he gets
out of the band and they hire the other nicest
man in rock, Timothy BI Schmidt, to replace him. And
it was a natural hire to make because Timothy BI
Schmitt had previously replaced Randy Meisner in the band Poco,

(38:16):
and he also had like a similar voice and a
very very deferential personality. I mean, I think Timothy BI Schmitt. Again,
it would have been hard to find like a like
a more sort of like laid back person than Randy Meisner,
but somehow they found it with Timothy B. Schmitt, and
Randy did join the group at the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame induction in he attempted to not rejoin

(38:38):
the band, but joined them on stage when their two
thousand eight tour came through l A but but he
was rebuffed and he was quoted as saying, I didn't
get much response. I thought it would be nice to
sit in with Timothy bi Schmitt and sing take it
to the limit. But they pretty much gave me a no.
On a roundabout way. I can't blame them. They have
to keep their band the way it is, just I
can just hear his voice and his story gets even sadder.

(39:01):
I guess they finally when they were doing the History
of the Eagles tour, they reached out to Randy to join,
like just as I did with Bernie Leaden, and he
finally had his moment to rejoin, and he had some
really serious health scare after thirty six years of waiting
to rejoin this band. Uh, he missed his moment. I
think he choked on a piece of food and lost

(39:21):
consciousness and was in a coma for a short time
or something some like really yeah, a coma was involved,
and so he couldn't join the tour. And he also
dealt with alcoholism and some mental health issues, including bipolar disorder.
In he threatened to shoot his wife and himself with
an a K forty seven. Another time he threatened to
take you know, all of his medication at once. I mean,

(39:44):
really really sad, scary stuff. He was placed under conservative
ship for a time, and then his wife I think,
ended up getting killed in some freak accident when a
rifle she was holding bumped up against a cabinet and
discharged and killed her. I mean, just all in all,
Randy Meiser's later years have been pretty bleak. So you know,
big big prayers for him. Man. I feel like someone
just pumped the brakes on this episode. Uh, and we're

(40:07):
stranded in bummertown. This is like the bleakesting that you
can imagine. I mean, the the Shakespearean twists keep turning
up in this story. I can't believe it. I think
we have to find a way to end this episode
on a lighter note. So I think we should talk
about the Rolling Stone softball match. That's This is like
the most awkward transition efforts, Like when you watch the

(40:28):
news and there's like a plane crash and then they
like segue to like a a visit to a pupping
on a skatebag. We're going to the zoo to look
at some quali bears now, But yeah, there's there was
this famous softball match that took place between the Eagles
and the writers of Rolling Stone in the late seventies,
and it was basically like away for the Eagles to

(40:49):
vent their frustration about like how poorly they had been
treated by rock critics in the seventies, you know, because
I think a lot of critics they looked at the Eagles,
they you know, they acknowledged that this was like a
very pot or band, but there was like this idea
that like, these guys are too slick for their own good.
You know, this is like soft rock, you know, there's
no soul here. I think that the biggest problem that

(41:10):
rock critics probably had with the Eagles in the seventies
is that they were like the jockeyest band of the seventies,
you know, in terms of how the whole yeah, the
way that they carried themselves and and the way that
they like constantly competed and like really kind of frontloaded
that aspect of the band. I mean, I think, you know,
you look at the Stones or sep when the who
any of the great rock bands, they were all competitive,
they all wanted to be successful, but like they didn't

(41:32):
talk about it as much. You know, they didn't like
make that as much a part of their narrative. I think,
like to the degree that the Eagles did, you know,
they just the Eagles were upfront about wanting to be successful,
wanting to be the best. You know, they didn't care
who knew it, and there was an arrogance about that.
I think that bothered a lot of people. There was
also the fact that the Eagles actually played sports too,

(41:53):
and like they were big fans of playing softball, like
to release the tensions that they had on the road.
You know, Glenn Fry said that if we can yell
at each other on the baseball field, we don't do
it in the studio, which actually proved not to be true,
totally true, like or else, they didn't play enough softball,
I guess, uh, you know, to to avoid those studio arguments.
But I think Rolling Stone was like the biggest, you know,

(42:16):
sort of target of ire for the Eagles because they
were the most respected rock magazine. I think the Eagles,
especially Don and Glen like secretly craved like their praise
and their attention, and when they didn't get it, it
made them angry. So that's set up this epic softball
game where the Eagles could finally get revenge on rock critics.
I mean it really started with a fairly minor thing

(42:37):
in Rolling Stone. Uh. The writer Charles M. Young wrote
in the random notes section that he was talking about
Joe Walsh's new solo album, and he wrote, the rest
of the Eagles, on their first vacation in three years,
seemore interested in finding a softball team they can beat,
having lost in recent weeks two teams fielded by Andrew Gold,
Jimmy Buffett, employees of several San Francisco radio stations, and

(42:58):
their own road crew. And I'm guessing that you know
they weren't thrilled that Rolling Stone and publicized the fact
that they lost to the Thank you for being a friend,
guy Glenn wrote in Uh, what you have failed to
mention is that the Eagles won two out of three
games against Jimmy Buffett. I'm gonna let that sink in
for a minute. Anytime you pencil pushing desk jockeys want

(43:20):
to put on your spikes, will kick your ass too.
And the challenge was accepted immediately. Now I have to
say that like Rolling Stone, like the rock writers there,
I I think that they were a little arrogant themselves
and accepting this invitation. I mean, I'm a rock critic myself.
I'm not in good shape. Every rock writer I know
in poor shape. You know, if you were a jock,
you wouldn't be a rock writer, you know. So they

(43:42):
I think we're set up to lose from the beginning.
I think also they underestimated how seriously the Eagles like
took this game. You know, I think, like the people
are Rolling Stone, they probably looked at this as like
a as a pr stunt, you know, something that they
could take photos of and put in their magazine and
have a good laugh of at it. There was also,
uh the fundraising aspect of this, Like the losing team

(44:04):
was going to pay like five thousand dollars to UNICEF,
so it was for a good cause. But like when
the Rolling Stone staff they showed up at the game,
it was. It took place at usc in May eight
and like the rock critics were presented as the villains
essentially of this game, Like the Eagles had loaded the
stands with like celebrities like Chevy Chase was there, Joni

(44:25):
Mitchell was there, the Governor of California at the time,
Jerry Brown was there, and they're all cheering for the Eagles,
you know, because look, in the eyes of the public,
rock critics are always going to be less cool than
rock stars, so you're gonna cheer for the famous cool
guys and the Eagles. Also, the Eagles showed up wearing
metal cleats, which I think is kind of insane, you know,

(44:46):
like when you slide into second you might take out
someone's leg exactly. And Johan Winner actually yelled at irving
A's Off like, hey, someone might get hurt, and as
Off retorted, do you think your writers ever think about that?
So that pretty much set the tone there that like,
the Eagles were gonna wear metal cleats to get their
revenge for all the snarky reviews that Rolling Stone writers

(45:08):
and other recritics had written of their records in the past.
And the Eagles ended up killing Rolling Stone. I think
they won fifteen to eight. Damn that is bad, I
guess uh, Henry and Fry wrote into the magazine a
few weeks later. In the end, it was errors that
cost Rolling Stone the game. Their first error was to
call the Eagles sissies in random notes. We're gonna take

(45:30):
a quick break to get a word from our sponsor
before we get to more rivals. All right, we've now
reached the part of the episode where we give the
pro side of each part of the rivalry. Let's talk
about Bernie Leaden and Randy Bisner first. Like I said before,
you know, Bernie Leadon, while he's sort of forgotten now,

(45:52):
I feel like in the early seventies he was like
the most famous and respected member of the Eagles, like
as they got going with their debut record, and I
I really feel like he was probably the main reason
why Glenn John's decided to work with them, and he
was also the most forceful about them getting a record
deal with David Geffen. Randy Meisner was also like, well
regarded you as a former member of Poco, and after
Don Henley, I think he was like the best singer

(46:14):
in the band. I mean, like take It to the Limit.
That's a great vocal on that song, and it really
is like one of my favorite Eagle songs of that era.
So like when you look at these two guys together,
I feel like, you know, for this era of the band,
they really were essential in terms of like shoring up
the Eagles country rock bona fides like this was a
band that I think had a lot of hits because
these two guys brought an element that like Don and

(46:34):
Glenn didn't have. They might have had the songs, but
like those guys really had like sort of you know,
the instrumental chops and integrity that they needed at that time. Yeah,
I agree. I mean overall, I think I prefer the
Burning and Randy years. I mean I really like this
sort of the b Benders and the mandolin's and the
banjos and the Joe Bows. I like that sound. And
you know, I could never deny that Joe Walsh, you know,

(46:54):
he is one of the great guitarists of all time.
But I think I'm more of a bigger fan of
the Eagles as the peaceful, easy feeling country rock type group.
And you know, Bernie himself was a crucial architect of
that sound. With this time in Dillard and Clark and
the Flying Burrito Brothers. I think that Bernie, like you said,
was kind of their secret weapon in those early days
because his talent as a multi instrumentalist, and he contributed

(47:15):
great songs, I mean early Bird one and then Yeah, Randy,
I feel compelled to back up my my soft spoken,
gentle bass playing brethren here. I uh, I don't think
the harmonies were ever as good after Randy left, and
you know, obviously take It to the Limit was never
the same. It was never the show stopper it was
after Randy left. I think part of the you know,
the incredible part of watching that song live was like

(47:37):
the actual just sort of palpable fear and anxiety that
you could get coming off of Randy is whether or
not he would hit that note, and whenever he did,
it made it so much more triumphant, enjoyous and exuberant.
So yeah, I I missed that from you know, watching
those old concerts when he would sing that song is
is a real highlight of anything Eagles related for me.

(47:57):
Now moving over to the Dunn in Glenside, I think
a comment theme of our Eagles episodes is that while
Don and Glenn we're off at assholes and probably hard
to deal with if you were in a band with them,
I think that they were usually correct in terms of
their instincts and guiding the Eagles forward. You know, they
started out with the idea of being like a real band,
but you know, Don and Glenn came up with the
strongest material, and they also I think had the vision

(48:19):
of like how to bring the Eagles forward. They were
ultimately right, I think, in guiding them out of country
rock into more of like an arena rock sound with
Walsh and Felder, and I have to say that that's
probably my favorite era personally, and we're going to get
into that more in our next episode. You know, I
love all those Joe Walsh and Don Felder guitar solos,
and I'm excited to get into it in part two
of this series. You know, we mentioned the big Lebowski

(48:41):
earlier in the episode, and I thinking of Don handling
Glenn Fry. I just always think of the line when
Lebowski's talking to his uh increasingly uh pushy friend Walter Schobcheck. Uh,
I says, you know, am I wrong? Am I wrong?
And Lebowski says, You're not wrong, Walter, You're just an asshole,
And that kind of sums up how I feel about

(49:04):
Don and Glenn. They're very rarely wrong, you know. I
think musical choice is overall, especially in this era, where
in well any era, really we're dead on. But they
didn't always approach it in the best way. They weren't wrong,
they could just be assholes. So that that's my my
final thought on them. So when we look at, you know,
these guys together, you know, again I have to go

(49:24):
back to the Joe Walsh quote. You know that there
was a lot of anarchy at this time, but when
you look back at it, it seems like a finally
crafted novel. And you know, for all of the chaos
that existed, all the egos, all the strife, there is
a certain kind of logic to Lennon and Meisner being
in the band when they were and then exiting when
they exited, Like, I think they had perfect timing in

(49:45):
the early seventies when it was more of a country
rock era and those guys belonged in the Eagles, and
then when times changed and the Eagles evolved, those guys
left and some other people came in. And for all
of the tension that exists in this band, you can't
argue with like what if you want to call it
the logic, the fate, the finely crafted novel nature of
it all, you know, it all comes together, I think

(50:06):
in this period of the Eagles. Yeah, I mean it's
rare that a band can so completely reinvent their sound,
especially in such a short span of time, especially when
Matt prior sound was so successful. And you know, the
Hotel California is absolutely they're defining work. The success of
their n through seventy five Greatest Hits album, which is
the best selling disc of the twentieth century, is you know,
proof positive that the country rock era is just a

(50:28):
significant and I don't think that would have been possible
without Randy and Burning Well. Jordan's talking about all this
Eagle stuff. I can't believe this episode has already gone.
That one flew like an eagle by Oh no, no,
damn it, that was Steve Miller ship. That's okay. We
have another installment of this Eagle series to make up
for that, and I can't wait to get into part

(50:50):
two of our special Eagles Exploration. It's going to be great.
Until then, I hope you enjoyed this discussion of beefs
and rivals and bitter dissension inside the Eagle. We'll have
more for you next week. Rivals is a production of
I Heart Radio. The executive producers are shaun Tytone and

(51:11):
Noel Brown. Supervising producers are Taylor chicogn and Tristan McNeil.
The producer is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan run Tug.
I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please
subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcast for
my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,