Whitney Houston vs. Mariah Carey: Dueling Divas

Whitney Houston ruled the pop world in the late '80s with a string of infectious hits that included seven consecutive number ones. But when Mariah Carey burst onto the scene at the start of the new decade, America's Sweetheart turned bitter and famously shaded the newcomer in a series of interviews. The vocal powerhouses spent much of the '90s duking it out on the charts, breaking records with their multi-octave ranges. Though they publicly buried the hatchet with a high profile duet, their relationship would forever be marked by competition. In addition to their supreme talent, both women were bonded by personal struggles that threatened to detail their musical careers. When Houston succumbed to her addictions in 2012, it was Carey who led the tributes to the fallen diva.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and
feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

(00:22):
I'm Jordan's and it's dueling. Diva's week here on Rivals
with two of the finest voices in pop history, Whitney
Houston and Mariah Carey, who I cannot wait. Their talent
is undeniable and fans have spent decades debating who's superior.
So we're gonna have Lambs to the left, Houston heads
to the right. I hope you brought a coat because
it's about to a little chili with all this shade

(00:42):
up in here, so you feel chilly, But I actually
feel extremely warm, just basking in the glow of all
of the star power. I mean, are there two bigger
singers in the history of pop music than Whitney Houston
and Mariah Carey. I mean, between these two ladies, they
are responsible for literally dozens of huge hits songs, and
yet when you are such a big star, it's really

(01:03):
hard to share the stage sometimes, especially when say you're
as big as Whitney Houston was in the eighties, and
another singer by the name of Maria Carey comes along
who becomes an equally big star, doing what appears to
be a close facsimile of your act. You're right, I
mean sometimes we have shows, but the guy who's saying
break stuff and the dude from creeds sometimes we do
shows or people throw shoes. These women are just in

(01:26):
a class of their own. When you consider the astronomical
sales figures, the hundreds of awards, the stunning statistics and
records broken between them, it just it boggles the mind.
And yet in spite of like all of that stardom,
we're talking about two human beings here, and they feel
very human emotions pettiness, jealousy, insecurity, and still more pettiness.

(01:48):
So I'm excited to get into it without further ado,
Let's get into this mess. Whitney Houston grew up referring
to her family friend the Wreatha Franklin as Auntie read.
I feel like when you're on a nickname basis with
the Queen of soul, that just you know that entitles
you to deva behavior for the rest of your life.

(02:09):
Whitney was basically destined to be a singer. Her mother,
Cissy Houston, was part of the vocal group of Sweet
Inspirations and her cousins Dion Warwick legend in her own right.
She began singing first in gospel choirs as a child
and then in clubs around new work as a teenager,
and when she was twelve she was a prodigy. She
was recruited as like a backing singer for people like
Lou Rawls and Shaka Khan. It's it's amazing how early

(02:29):
this started for and then um, she was twenty when
Clive Davis signed her do Arista Records and spent a
few years kind of like you know, doing the star
grooming thing and selecting material for her self titled debut
in Nive and it actually took off really slowly. The
label kind of thought it would be like a slow burn,
thinking that wouldn't even break like a hundred and fifty
thousand units sold, But it just shot off like a rocket,

(02:53):
and I think it earned two number one singles, How
Will I Know? And Saving All My Love for you? Yeah, so,
like I'm a little bit older than you, so like
I remember when Witty Houston first hit in the mid eighties,
I was around eight years old, and I was a
young budding music critic already at that time. I was
listening to Casey Cason's American Top forty every week, and
so I knew Whitney Houston songs very well. And she

(03:16):
just seemed like she was ubiquitous as soon as that
record hit. And it was the type of songs that really,
like an eight year old like me could understand, or
like an eighty year old could like you know, it
was they were very middle of the road. You mentioned
some of those songs that were hits off of that record,
how Will I Know, Saving All My Love for You,
also songs like the Greatest Love of All you give

(03:36):
good Love. I mean, these are songs I remember hearing
at like the doctor's office when I was a kid.
I mean, they were just everywhere, very safe, and I think,
you know, if you're going to compare her to like
the other big superstars of pop music at that time,
like you know, Michael Jackson, Prince Madonna, I feel like
most pop stars had some element of danger to them.
You know, they were there was something edgy about their

(03:58):
act that would upset parents and therefore, you know, further
and dear kids to these superstars. There was nothing edgy
about Whitney Houston. You know, she was someone that everyone loved,
and I think that because of that, she actually did
become controversial I think by the end of the eighties
because I think, especially like among like black music listeners,

(04:20):
there was this feeling that Whitney Houston was pandering to
a white audience essentially that she was the biggest star
in R and B. But like, there wasn't anything gritty
about her music. There wasn't anything like edgy. There was
no like real excitement. It just seemed like it was
you know, pitched towards like middle American listeners. And I know,
like there was a story, I think it was in
Time magazine where they referred to her as the prom

(04:41):
queen of soul, you know, which was not a compliment. Yeah,
she wasn't very cool basically, but she was enormously successful,
you know, again from she had seven number one songs,
that is insane. As much as you know, there was
I think a growing group of critics that were, uh,
you know, not really feeling what she was doing. I

(05:02):
think again, like in the pop mainstream, what she was
doing was working, you know, she was a huge star
just I think the critic uh Mark Anthony Neal wrote
that there was sort of an effort to make her
the unblacked black artist, and some black radio stations refused
a player. I think she was booed at the Soul
Train Awards, So it's really interesting now to think from
this vantage point. Yeah, they're calling her Whitey Houston, Whitney Houston,

(05:24):
which is like a pretty brutal for her. Yeah, I
think it just speaks again. I think, especially at that time,
to be like a crossover artist, it just required I
think concessions that I think for a lot of people
were just uncomfortable, you know that, like you were in
some way sort of denying who you are in order
to appeal again to this sort of like massive Middle
American audience. Which is funny now because I hear those

(05:46):
sort of the early pop songs she was doing, and
it sounds really innovative to me, kind of blending the
blend of R and B and pop, Like it seems like,
you know, not going the straight R and B route
was a way to sort of like build on the
people that came before her. I feel like, I don't know,
I maybe because I I had to rediscover those songs.
I didn't really grow up with a lot of those
because I was born in eighty seven, so I was
kind of right. I think the number one song when

(06:06):
I was born was I think it was how well
I know, I think, But yeah, hearing them now, they
still sound really fresh and interesting. But got seven number ones.
I think she was the first person to do the
first female artist, the first artist period who has seven
number ones in a row. I mean, yeah, an incredible run. Yeah,
I mean I think it's true of like her upbeat
songs you're talking about them sounding fresh today, but like

(06:28):
she did also do like a lot of these very
soft rock ballads again, like the Greatest Love of All,
like Saving All My Love for You, like which Are
Again it was like dentist office music. Yeah, And I
think what like redeems those recordings is Whitney Houston's voice.
She's such an incredible singer that when she does material
that is kind of like schmaltzy pap, she can sell

(06:50):
it because she has so much soul in her voice.
But yeah, the material itself, I think sometimes could really
kind of veer into like snoozeville at that time, So
She's in the middle of an incredible run when Mariah
Carey burst into the scene in with the release of
vision of Love, which she wrote that song as a teenager,
which I didn't realize that. I mean, just totally virtualistic,

(07:10):
not only voice, but just her songwriting capability is amazing.
Maria's uh, she's barely in her twenties. Her debut LP
sells fifteen million worldwide, which is several million more than
Houston's still insanely high selling I'm Your Baby Tonight and
and this is when Whitney's started to take a dip commercially,
ever so slightly. I think Clive Davis said he was

(07:31):
trying to aim her towards the sort of the traditionally
black market that she'd been accused of neglecting. Uh, it's
kind of had a little bit of a New jack
Swing sound on that on that album, which I think
it was her first LP that didn't make number one.
I mean it made it number three, which is still great,
but uh, but the Mariah just absolutely explodes. She was

(07:52):
the first artist since the Jackson five to have her
first four singles top the charts. You got Visional Love,
Love Takes Time, someday and I don't want to cry.
How of a run? Yeah, And again this was another
instance where I mean, I remember when that record came out.
I guess I was in middle school when the first
Mariah Carey record dropped, and that was like another instance
of like a pop star arriving fully formed, like she

(08:13):
was just everywhere. There wasn't like really like a ramp
up period with her, the way you feel like there's
with a lot of artists where maybe you put your
first record and it does okay, and then your second
record is the big one. It's like her first single
was vision of Love, and that was an enormous hit,
and then she just kept having huge hit after huge hit,
And I think it was natural at the time for

(08:33):
people to look at Mariah Carey and feel like, oh,
this is like the next Whitney Houston. You know, it's
it felt I think immediately like that, just because she
had the same sort of vocal range that Whitney Houston had,
and I think early on especially, she was singing the
same types of songs like it was again the girl
next door type image. Like if you look at the
video for Vision of Love, it's interesting comparing Mariah Carey

(08:58):
then to like what she became because us I think
Mariah Carey, unlike Whitney Houston, was able to bring other
elements into her music that weren't just sort of like
the middle of the road pop like. She proved that
she was like on top of like the latest in
R and B like as her like subsequent records came out,
and it seemed like she had much more of an
edge than Whitney Houston ever had um and I think

(09:21):
that's why in a way, she ended up maybe having
a longer career at least like in terms of being
a pop star. I feel like her peak lasted longer
than Whitney Houston's did. But like early on, it seemed
like she definitely was following that Whitney Houston template of
like being the nice girl with the big boys who's
singing these sort of romantic ballads where you know, if
you're a female listener, you want to be Mariah Carey,

(09:44):
and if you're like a male listener, you want to
be with her. It just seemed like this is someone
designed to appeal to everybody exactly. I think, Mariah, did
you want to be cast as a new Whitney Houston.
A lot of that I think was it was Tommy
Montola's doing, was the head of her record label, Columbia,
and her future husband for a while and uh, and
he had been sort of tasked with his job at

(10:05):
Columbia of sort of filling the pop d of a
slot that Barbra Streissan had been filling for years and
years for the label. But she'd kind of stopped releasing
records really consistently. She started mostly focusing on her movie career,
so she wanted somebody to sort of compete with, you know,
Whitney Houston. It was the reigning diva at that point.
And I heard the story about how how he and

(10:27):
and Mariah linked up. I'm sure it was totally above
board and not at all sleazy in the matter of
many music industry stories. I mean, the official version is,
which is probably apocryphal, is like a modern Cinderella. I
guess she walked out to him at some like industry
party in hand and pressed her mixtape into his hand.
And then he's he's leaving the party and he's in

(10:48):
his limo and he puts the cassette in the in
the stereo and he's listening to it and he's blown away.
He orders the limo driver to turn the car go
back to the party immediately. I gotta find this woman,
and you know, it's a total Cinderella store, and she's gone.
He spends weeks trying to track Maria down and eventually
he does and and he uh really wants to basically
make her competition for for Whitney Houston. He hires some

(11:12):
of the same people who worked on Whitney's promotions over
at Arista Records. UH taps uh narda Michael Walden, who
produced Whitney's hits like how Will I Know? And I
want to dance with somebody to oversee visions of love.
And Mariah really resisted this. She wanted to work with
her collaborator Ben Markolas and and oversee the production herself.
And I think she actually did produce one of the

(11:34):
songs in her debute herself, but it was mostly Tommy
Motola is doing to kind of like push her down
that route. I think, Yeah, the Tommy Matola angle, I'm
very curious about. And you know, unfortunately we're recording this
before Mariah Carey's book comes out. She wrote a book
called The Meeting of Mariah Carey, and I think I
have a feeling that there's probably some good Tommy Matola
dish in there, because you know, they ended up getting

(11:56):
married and divorced, and uh, you know again, like I,
I assume that every head of a record label is
a sleeves bag, So I'm assuming that there's there's some
sleazy material. That's why I made that joke before. I
just feel like, you know, Tommy Montola probably had designs
on Mariah Carey that went beyond just music. You know,
from the get go, it seems like there was something

(12:16):
weird going on with him and as he looked at her.
But yeah, you're right. I mean, it seemed like there
was a conscious effort in a very sort of typical
music industry move to like just replicate oh known formula,
which was Whitney Houston very successful. You know, Now we
have another singer who's great, and we'll just kind of
fit her in that mold. And I think what allowed

(12:37):
Mariah Carey, I think, to have the kind of career
that she's had because again, I feel like her peak
lasted longer than Whitney Houston. I think Whitney Houston's peak
really was that late eighties peak going into the Bodyguards soundtrack,
so that's about like a seven year run and then
it starts to dip I think a little bit after that,
whereas Mariah Carey has had like a decade plus. I
mean she owned the nineties, she had like a little

(12:59):
bit of a dip, and then she was able to
come back strong, you know, yeah, exactly in the adds.
And she's always kind of been relevant, like for the
last thirty years, like she'll bubble up and do something,
and of course you know all I Want for Christmas
as you has made her immortal, uh in a way
like you know, that's a song that we'll be hearing,
you know, long after we're all you know, passed away,
people will still be playing that song. But yeah, I

(13:20):
think with Maria Carey she was able to take control
of her career creatively. I think in a way that
Whitney Houston wasn't that because she was a songwriter and
a producer, that once she was successful, she could kind
of break out of that mold of like the prom
queen pop star and become I think what she really
wanted to be, which was more of like an R
and B singer and you could see that really start

(13:41):
to come into play, like with her next record, Emotions,
where she was a big part of that record. I
think she was like co producing and co arranging like
every track on that record for the most part. And
it makes me feel sad. I guess comparing her to
Whitney Houston because I think there's so much about the
Whitney Houston story where she was compelled to like put
up this facade of perfection. You know that she was

(14:04):
like again, it's like perfect pop star, saying these like,
you know, immaculate songs that everyone could like, and uh,
you know, there was nothing that was allowed to sort
of rub up against that image. And you can see
with her at some point she can't keep that facade
up anymore. I just wondered to what degree the pressure
to be perfect, you know, ended up doing real damage

(14:24):
to her in the long run. Yeah, it almost reminded
me of Michael Jackson in some ways, to that kind
of like Motown fame factory thing. I mean, clud Davis
certainly did put a lot of pressure on her, you know,
with elocution lessons and all that kind of stuff. I'm
sure that that was that that was rough and you know,
you kind of see a crack in the facade. In
an interview she gave interview on European television I think

(14:46):
where she's asked about Mariah Carey and you know what
she thinks of her? And you see this sort of
flash behind her eyes with it like snap decision of
how do I answer this? How do I get get
you know, how real do I get here? And she
said what do I what do I think of her? Well,
I don't think of her, which if you've never seen

(15:09):
this clip is go on YouTube. He is like rais
or yeah, and I'll pause this and go watch it.
I mean, it's just I cannot do justice to just
the razor sharp pauses, just her eyes like kind of
blankly scan the room for like just the perfect response,
and the studio audience like starts hooting. It sounds like
a Jerry Springer episode, Like she's just like and she

(15:32):
tries to back pedal a little bit. She says, musically,
I think she's a good singer, A good singer. I mean,
I know you're Whitney Houston, but you know, maybe you
can see that Mariah is a great singer because she's yeah,
he's a great singer. See, Like I appreciate this moment though,
because again, the facade of perfection that she had to
put up in the eighties I think was oppressive ultimately,

(15:53):
and like, and I do think it was harmful for her.
I mean, it's hard for anyone to keep this image
that like you're you know, that you're always happy, that
you like everyone, that you're just this sort of universally
adored pop star. It's like she's a human being, and
I understand her perspective in this situation. It's like, you're
asking me about Mariah Carey, this woman who's just come out,

(16:16):
she had like one record at that point. It's like,
I'm Whitney Houston, you know, like I am already acknowledged
as one of the greatest singers of all time, and
now you're asking me about this person who really doesn't
have much of a legacy. Yet. You know, from her perspective,
I can see like how that would be a little aggravating.
And I'm also you know, I'm sure that on some
level she was also feeling a little bit threatened to

(16:37):
I mean, I'm sure that was part of it. But
you know, again, this idea that like she wasn't allowed
to have like a real human emotion that like, any
time she would let her real self show, you know,
people would get upset about it or be controversial. You
know that. That's just sad to me. It's like, no,
she should be allowed to be annoyed by Mariah Carey.

(17:00):
I think that's perfectly acceptable on her part. Um. It's
funny too, because like on the Mariah Carey side, there
was an incident around this time to like where she
allegedly like snubbed Whitney Houston. Like do you know this story, oh,
the baby winning story. Yeah, Like, well, this was like
at the American Music Awards and I guess it's like
early and you know, Whitney Houston's there obviously, as as

(17:22):
is Mariah Carey. You know, again there are two of
the big pop stars at this moment. And this was
like right around the time I think that Whitney Houston
was going to be at the super Bowl performing the
national anthem, which is like the Awards show was the
day after, So she is peak Whitney Houston. She has
walked off that off the super Bowl field, figure she's
ever been and really like, okay, that game that was

(17:45):
I think the Giants and and the Buffalo Bills, the
Scott Norwood missing the field goal, which is an iconic play.
But I feel like Whitney Houston won the Super Bowl
because that's that national anthem. Like I remember that, like
that was released as a single, Like people thought that
that was like the greatest version of the national anthem ever,
Like it really had that reputation at the time. And

(18:05):
I think even now, if people are going to talk
about like the most memorable renditions of that song, they
probably talk about that, And like the Marvin Gay star
spangled banner from the NBA All Star Game in the
early eighties, Like it's hard for me to think of
like another anthem that comes even close to that. I
think Whitney is definitely the like gold standard for like

(18:25):
just belting that song out and killing it. So anyway,
she is like just pique Whitney Houston. You can't funk
with Whitney Houston at this time. But yeah, she's with
BB Whinings and like doesn't BB say like, hey, Maria
Carry is over there, you should go say hi? Yeah,
because Mariah had performed at the Awards show that night,
so like, yeah, maybe go say something nice to her, like,
you know, nice job or something. So like Queen Whitney Houston. Again,

(18:46):
queen she has like she's like Queen of America essentially
because just because she's sung the national anthem better than
anyone ever, she still said like, Okay, I'll go say
how to Mariah Carey and Mariah Carrey, like doesn't she
like pretend not to hear her a pair? That's what
Bebe said. He said that that she just totally blew
her off and pretended didn't hear it, didn't didn't turn around,
didn't acknowledge Whitney in anyway. That's low man, that's I'm

(19:09):
on Whitney side on this one, because again, Whitney Houston
huge star, Mariah Carey, very promising star at this point,
but she's not yet Mariah Carey. She has not yet
earned the right to like blow off with If this
was like Mariah Carey in seven ninety eight, maybe it's
a different story, but it's like she's still pretty young
at this point. But like I guess years later, it

(19:31):
was at a tribute, I guess for Whitney Houston. Was
it at the Grammy Awards. I think it was the
BT Awards. The b T words that Mariah Carrey talked
about this night as being the first night that she
met Whitney Houston, no reference to blowing her off. She
kind of made it sound like it was like a
great meeting that they had, right. I mean, I love
how after this went down, Whitney supposedly said the jersey
inside of me said grab her hair, just like very

(19:53):
value of the dolls. Mariah didn't bring that up in
the pet tribute. She didn't say I blew her off
and then she wanted to calm my hair out. I
think it was very much like we met and it
was a wonderful experience. And you know, which is like
the revisionist history. I guess that gets written all the
time in these in these sorts of instances. But yeah,
I feel like Mariah, don't blow her off. But maybe
she was mad about that interview though. You know, maybe

(20:15):
she saw she heard about that and she's like, oh, okay,
we're enemies right now. Maybe she wasn'timidated by her. Yeah,
you know, I mean, yeah, the whole old about Eve
thing between these two is is really interesting too, like
kind of the slightly older It's funny to me that Whitney.
He is, I think six years older than than Maria,
but to me that it feels like a different generation.
And I don't know if it was just the time
that I was born in. By the time that I

(20:37):
was aware of music, Whitney was mostly doing movies and
wasn't really as active a recording artists. And meanwhile, Mariah,
you know, on the nineties at least the late nineties. Uh.
It's funny to me how different they feel just generation generationally. Yeah,
I mean, I think six years is a huge gap
in pop music, and I think you're right, they were
different generations. I think like when they're big debut albums

(21:01):
came out is crucial, because you know, Whitney's debut comes
out in five and her early career, I mean, she
just seems like quintessentially eighties to me, even though she
had hits another decades and of course she's about to
have the Bodyguard soundtrack in the timeline that we're in
right now, but I still think of her first and
foremost as eighties, whereas like Mariah Carey, her debut comes

(21:22):
out in ninety and it's like, Okay, this is the
beginning of a new decade. This is gonna be the
Mariah Carey decade now, so I feel like that's true.
But yeah, there was this I think window of time
in the early nineties where they did seem like they
were competing head to head, because you know, Mariah Carey
is getting her career started. She puts out the first
record in ninety her record Emotions comes out in and

(21:45):
then of course Whitney has the Bodyguard soundtrack in ninety two,
which is like, really like the peak of her career.
All right hand, We'll be right back with more rivals
by The Bodyguard. Not a great film. I think it

(22:06):
received something like seven nominations at the Razzy Awards for
Worst Picture and Worst Actress. Rotten Tomatoes has given it.
But that's okay because Whitney and Clive Davis teamed up
for the soundtrack. She was just gonna sing six songs,
and one of them was supposed to be a cover
of the old Jimmy Ruffin song What Becomes the Broken Hearted?
But uh, Fried Green Tomatoes had just used it. So

(22:27):
Kevin Costner, of all people, suggests that she records an
old Dolly Parton tune I Will Always Love You. Kevin
Costner that's his idea in our job, he should have
been working for a record label. It's amazing. I had
no idea he was behind. You know what was at
one point the longest running number one in uh in
Billboard Hot one history. It was fourteen weeks at number one,

(22:48):
tied with Boys Two Men's A'll Make Love to You
and the Macarena three way tie for the longest number
one ever. And it's like not like necessarily a song
that you would pick as like a monster hits. So
I mean, I know that it was controversial a little
bit with radio programmers because it's like an acapella performance
for like the first what like thirty seconds or so

(23:08):
thirty like thirty or forty five seconds is just Whitney singing.
So obviously that's not typical for a radio hit. Um.
And it's also like pretty long, I think, Um, you know,
it's not just like a prototypical like three minute pop song.
But yeah, it was just one of those songs again,
I think because I mean, it's a wonderful song of
course that Dolly Parton wrote, but like it is such

(23:30):
a great showcase for Whitney Houston's voice, like the big
note that she hits at the end, you know, like
where she you know, the I Will Always Love You part.
It's like I'm thinking about it right now and I'm
getting chills just thinking about It's like such a powerful performance.
And um, just the Mortal Love song. I mean, I mean,
the Dolly Pardon version is so great, and there's other

(23:51):
great covers of that, but like Whitney Houston like owns
that song now. More than just the song, You've got
the entire soundtrack, which I mean we could do in
tire show. Just on the stats of the soundtrack, it
is the best selling soundtrack of all time, as well
as the best selling album by a female artist of
all time, with I Think million copies worldwide, fifth best
selling album in the world. I Think it went eighteen

(24:14):
times platinum in the United States. First album with the
sound scanned arrative sold more than a million units in
a one week period. It's broke Guns and Roses record
for User Illusion Album of the Year at the Grammys.
I mean, it's just this album is a big deal.
I cannot emphasize that enough. Yeah, it's an enormous hit.
Like Whitney again, She's She's already become Queen of America

(24:34):
because of the national anthem. Now she's like the queen
of pop music because of the Bodyguards soundtrack. But you
still have Mariah Carey coming up at her heels, and
Mariah Carey is ramping up, like you could say, Whitney
Houston's I think peaking at this point, but Mariah is
ramping up in a big time way, and she ends
up having a song that's an even bigger hit somehow

(24:56):
than I Will Always Love You, which is that song
once we her collaboration with Boys to Man. It came
out in ninety five. That was number one for sixteen weeks,
which is amazing. I feel like that was also like
the Boys to Men element, because apparently in the nineties
people could not get enough of like funeral paste boys

(25:16):
to Men songs like Boys to Men, like love ballads
that were like what like fifty beats per minute or
something like just super slow, you know, just like Dirge
is almost from Boys to Men. I don't get it.
I don't get it either. I mean, like, there's a
lot of Mariah carry songs that I enjoy, but like, yeah,
One Sweet Day, I just feel like it's a pretty
boring song. It hit the song yeah, it's not that great,

(25:39):
but it was number one for like four months, like
one third of the year. In again, like people just
loved people in ninety five. They hated rhythm, they hated
fast paced songs. They just wanted like dirgy love ballads
from Boys to Men and or Mariah Carey, and they
delivered and this song was enormous, and uh yeah, it's

(26:00):
I feel like in terms of just like the cultural
impact when we look back, I mean, I think I
Will Always Love You has transcended the era. I mean
people know that song now, I feel like, and they
still love it because once week they have the same status.
I don't know, I mean maybe it does. I never
understood it. I don't like the song. I just think
there's no hook. I think it's just a dirge. I

(26:21):
know it's been kind of like, you know, embraced the
sort of a song for remembrance for like people who
have died. I think it was inspired by the age
related death of David Cole from C and C Music Factory.
So I appreciate that kind of like Candle in the
Win nine element of it where it's sort of like
goes hand in hand with a tragedy but the song itself,
I just I never I just find it really forgettable

(26:43):
in a way that I just think it is unusual
too for songs that have reached that kind of chart success,
Like if you said Fantasy was number one for sixteen weeks, Like,
oh yeah, of course, that's got an amazing hook. It's
just incredible pop. I just yeah, I never really understood it,
but her records did until two th seventeen, when it
was tied with Desposito for sixteen weeks, and then Little

(27:05):
las X finally broke Mariah's record in two as a
nine team with Old Town Road. But for for twenty
years this record stood. And they asked Whitney Houston about
this song too, I remember, like in the mid nineties,
and like her response is pretty funny, like did you
see this? Like I think her quote is like they
asked her, like, oh, what do you think of this song?
Because again, like she had this enormous hit which I
Will Always Love You. And then Mariah Carey comes along

(27:28):
a couple of years later and has a song once
We Day that's on the top of the charts a
couple of weeks longer, and Whitney Houston just says, maybe
it's not what I think of it, it's what she
thinks it's more important. So again, like what, like what
does that even mean? Like, I know it's very that's
like a like a fortune cookie message that we like

(27:49):
look at And I don't understand this. Once we day
booted Exhale Shoot Shoot from the top spot Whitney's song too,
So I mean there's an extra element of like, you know,
getting run off the road. Not only is when these
record topped, but her own song gets kicked off off
the number one spot. So there's the simmering tensions that
are going on there. You know, they're battling on the

(28:09):
charts for supremacy. But then there's a scheme cooked up
I guess a ninety eight or so to get these
two together for something known as the Prince of Egypt soundtrack.
Now I have to say that like this, by this time,
I was in college, so I was not following the
latest Disney product. So I have no memories of the
Prince of Egypt. I don't even remember this song at all. Like,

(28:31):
do you have any memories of of this? Was this
important to you as as a young I guess you
would have been like ten years old. I would have
been ten. This would have been prime you know, my
my demo. I have zero recollection of that. I remember
seeing previews for it and thinking, you know, I guess
like animated biblical story was kind of what they were
going for for something that could be like, you know,

(28:52):
trotted out every I don't know. It wasn't No, it
was not the Lion King. I was Jeffrey Katzenberg, I think,
trying to probably top The Wine King with like doing
this sort of movie of biblical proportions. And I never
heard a single thing about it. I don't know, I've
never seen it. I don't know anyone I know who's
ever even spoken about it except for this duet exactly.

(29:13):
And I think the idea again was the public knows
that these two are competing with each other, they may
not like each other all that much, but hey, let's
put them together on this song and marketed to children,
you know, so because children love pop star feuds and
don't love it. I mean, right, wasn't that the idea
of the song. And again I don't remember the song
at all, but it was called when You Believe. Yeah,

(29:34):
it was basically like you know, meaningful and that very
nineties way where you just kind of like any song
that talks about hope and open mindedness is just like
deemed progressive because it was supposed to be this like
message song, but the message was basically just believe, which
I don't know. Mariah was all on board. Apparently the
first thing she said when she was told about this
idea was did Whitney say it was cool? So I guess,

(29:55):
you know, at least she she was showing appropriate reverence
to h a queen Whitney, But yeah, I never The
song did not live up to anybody's expectations, both commercially
for their independent commercial you know, successes, and also with
all the drama between the two. Apparently they went on
this basically this good will pr tour, they went on Oprah,

(30:18):
and Whitney would say like, oh, yeah, we got along
just like girlfriends and it was great. But I will
say um. Whitney was asked about the first time that
they they she met Maria like for this project, and
he says, oh, yeah, well, Mariah, we couldn't really talk
much because Mariah was having a little bit of vocal
trouble that day, a little bit which I just thought,
why why do you bring that up on on Oprah,

(30:40):
Like like no, just say yeah, it was great, Like
you don't you don't have to. I always thought that
was like kind of a dig. Oh, it's definitely a dig. Definitely,
And I think, you know, there was this idea, like
you said, they were going on this pr tour to
promote the film and also to show that yeah, yeah,
we're like girlfriends, we love each other, but there was
also this sort of winking acknowledge meant that maybe there

(31:01):
was you know, hostility under the surface. Like there was
that appearance that they were on Video Music Awards, and
I do remember this like where they had this bit
where they were on stage together and they were like
wearing the same dress and it was like, oh, we're
we're feuding because we're in the same dress. And it
was like kind of again like playing up this idea

(31:21):
that they don't really like each other. And uh, I
think the idea with those types of things as always
to say like, ha ha, we're joking about this, like
we actually do like each other because we're just kidding,
when in fact, you know, if they did ever show
up for real at a place with the same dress on.
I think that there would be like, you know, knives drawn,
and uh, it wouldn't end well, I think. But yeah,

(31:42):
the song itself, um, you know it's a it's a
letdown because you think, again, these are two of the
great pop singers ever to powerhouse singers, They're really going
to be on this song and it's going to be
like a Clash of the Titans type situation, and it
just ends up being this sort of cheeseball song on
a you know second or to your Disney film. Uh.
The music critic David Brown, who we've talked a lot

(32:04):
of about it in this show. He's written many great books.
I think he wrote a line about this record where
he said that this song has so much sap maple
trees will be jealous, which I think that review says
it all like it really is just like a sappy
kind of crappy song and um in a way to
like I feel like with Mariah Carey, you know, I
feel like she had established this, uh this thing on

(32:27):
her own where she could be like this great kind
of R and B singer. I think, especially like you
not so much on songs like Once week Day, but
you think of a song like Daydream, for instance, which
is like such a great track that has aged so well.
The more sort of upbeat kind of R and B
dance jams that she could do, I think she really
shined on those songs. Yeah, I mean, it just still
blows my mind that that kind of star power. I

(32:49):
got to number fifteen, which you know, no one expected
at all. And I love how when Mariah was assembling
her first Greatest Hits compilation called Number One, which was
just a collection for number ones, and you've had as
many as as Maria Carrey can, you can fill out
a whole album she included When You Believe, despite the
fact that they didn't even crack the top ten, because
you thought it was a miracle that she and Houston

(33:10):
were collaborating together. I almost wonder if that record which
came out, I think around the same time that when
You Believe it was released, and they just assumed it
was going to go to number one, Oh yeah, why
wouldn't you and just stuck it on there anyway. Yeah,
and they just like and they're like, oh shit, well wait,
it's not man. It's like yeah, well, and Maria Carey
is not going to put a record called you know

(33:31):
number fifteens. You know, there's not gonna be a fifteens
record from marian Carey, So yeah, it ended up on
that record. And that was around the time too that
like Mariah Carey started to stall a little bit. And
what I think it's fascinating about like this period two
for her, And we're gonna get into like, you know,
some of the issues that she had here in a minute,
but like this is like a tangent, I guess, but

(33:52):
like she had that mini feud with j Lo around
this time. I love this. This is this is such
a second tier rivalry. But and I don't think warrants
his own episode, but I love it so much. And
this is an incredible, you know, one of the most
iconic interview answers I think in history. So it blows
Mariah's you know, what do you think of Whitney thing
out of the water. I think. So she she's being interviewed.

(34:13):
I don't even know who's interviewing her, and um, and
the interviewer asked her about Beyonce, and Maria gives this
like really lengthy gush responds about how great Beyonce is
and want of talent and this and that how nice
a human being she has, goes on and on and on,
and then the interviewer says, well, Okay, what do you
think of Jennifer Lopez and Mariah just frozen smile. I
don't know her Nope, nope, and then just like looking

(34:37):
daggers with her eyes, but her smile is like huge
in the interviewer just goes up, Okay, it's great, incredible, yeah,
and like the idea a gain. I think she said
this later that she's like, I really was trying to
say something nice or say nothing at all, Like so
I got in the application to Mariah. That doesn't help.
And it's an interesting contrast with this Whitney Houston thing
because I think with her, with Maria Kerry Whitney he

(35:00):
then there was I think some tension there. But I wonder,
like on Mariah carry side, if it was just sort
of awkwardness in a way, because she probably felt like, Okay,
Whitney Houston probably feels a little threatened by me. You know,
I don't know how she feels about me, and like therefore,
I'm not really sure how to act around her. But
I still respect her, you know, and I don't necessarily

(35:21):
dislike her, you know, because she didn't slag off Whitney
Houston really ever that I'm aware of. You know, she
never like she kind of blew her off a couple
of times, but she never like did something like this
like where you know, she's like supposedly trying at to
say anything mean, but like by not saying anything at all,
you're actually saying everything you need to say. But yeah,

(35:41):
it's funny because like that interview clip ends up being
I think, pretty iconic. I still see that memed every
now and then on the internet, and it kind of
continues like for a while, Like I know that there
was this thing later on, like when someone asked Jennifer
Lopez about it and she said, you know, oh, Mariah
Carey is forgetful. We've met many times. Uh. And then

(36:03):
Mariah was like, wait, well, you know what, Apparently I'm
forgetful because I don't remember the fact that you know,
I meet a lot of people, you know, I am
so and so like, oh, yeah, that just happens to
me all the time. But you know, yeah, I just happened,
yeah exactly. And like there was that thing like at
the Billboard Music Awards where Mariah carry was performing the

(36:25):
song Infinity. It didn't like j Lo like pretended like
look at her phone during the performance, like there was
some weird thing with that. Oh yeah, they're like cut
away and she's in the audience like scroll, like very
obviously scrolling through Instagram in the middle of Mariah's performance,
And then she was on the I think people don't
watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen and he asked
about it, So no, I I watched most of the performance.

(36:48):
They just got away at a bad moment. And then
again like I think the year after that, in TMZ
asked Mariah Carey again about j Lo. Mariah said, again,
I still don't know her. So apparently she's still for
She's very forgetful. Maybe she should get some post it
notes or something and just write j Lo's name on
it so she can remember this at any rate. This

(37:10):
is a tangent movie memento, but just about meeting Jennifer
Lopez exactly, So this is a tangent anyway. I think
it's an interesting contrast with what the Whitney Houston thing
is again because I feel like when Mariah Carey really
doesn't like a diva, she makes it pretty clear. You know,
she's going to the media and uh, I mean again,
I think saying I don't know her is like the

(37:31):
most devastating thing that you could say about somebody. You know,
It is more devastating than if she had gone into
like some detailed critique about her singing or something. But
just like the foreword, I don't know her and the
fact that that's going to be memed forever, it's a
pretty it's amazing shade on Mariah Carry's apart one of
the funs. Yeah, I would too, I want to know that.
But anyway, let's get back to Whitney and Mariah, because

(37:53):
as we get into the odds, I feel like they
both go through a pretty difficult time in their careers
and in their personal lives. Oh yeah, I mean. Whitney's
career was totally signed by the sidelined by drug use
and exacerbated by her marriage to Bobby Brown and her
reputation as a sort of, you know, the squeaky clean
prom queen of soul thing had given way to a
new reputation which was less good, this sort of erratic

(38:15):
and unreliable addict. And she would arrive hours late to
interviews and photo shoots and would bail on concerts and
talk show appearances. And this was around the same time
of her like kind of legendary in a Bad Way
interview with Diane Sawyer, where she denied her drug use
by saying, you know, first of all, let's get one
thing straight. Crack is cheap. I make too much money
to ever smoke crack. Let's get that straight. Okay, we

(38:36):
don't get crack. Crack is whack. That's a that's a
unique defense of cracks, like I'm too I'm too rich
to do crack. Yes, that's pretty that's pretty tough. And
she was supposed to sing at Clive Davis's induction to
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. She she didn't
show uh. Burt back Iraq, who was her longtime friend.
I think uh fired her from performing at the Oscars

(38:58):
in in two thousand. I guess during rehearsals, not only
was her voice really shaky, but she would just start
singing the totally different songs than they were supposed to
be doing. Uh. So it was it was a really
rough time for her, but she could still command these
huge fees from record labels and in um in August
two thousand one, she signed, uh I think one of
the biggest deals in music history at that point with

(39:19):
Ariska BMG for a hundred million dollars to deliver six
new albums over the next you know, I think it
was ten years, which sadly, I don't think she ever
delivered all six. But the first it was two thousand two,
is just Whitney and it was a disappointment on pretty
much every level commercial critical. Yeah, And you know, man,
the Whitney Houston story is so sad to me. I mean,

(39:41):
there's and it really just gets sadder as as we
go beyond this point, you know, leading up to her
to her untimely death. But you know, I think in
comparison to that, like the Mariah Carey story is more inspiring,
just because she was able to pull out of a
tail spin that she went into around this around the
same time, which I think is is pretty well documented.
You know, in the late nineties, she was, as we

(40:02):
said before, she was married to Tommy Mottola and that
marriage ended up going on the rocks. Her career at
that time was also starting to stall a little bit.
Her record Rainbow wasn't as big of a hit as
some of her previous albums, which you know, again by
Mariah carry standards. She had very high commercial standards at
that time. I think for like a lot of people,
Rainbow would have been a pretty successful record. But it

(40:24):
really fed into the perception that maybe she was fading
a little bit. And in her personal life, you know,
along with the failing marriage, she has to deal with
her father dying of cancer. Just a lot to deal
with at this time, and it ends up taking a
toll on her. She has this emotional and mental breakdown.
There's that famous clip of her on TRL where she
just seems incoherent. I mean, it's pretty sad, you know.

(40:47):
I'm sure that's on YouTube. I don't really feel like
watching that. It's kind of depressing. I think to watch
um and I feel like she really reaches her neider
with the film Glitter. Then the soundtrack to that movie.
Glitter was supposed to come out on September eleventh, two
thousand one, which is a terrible day obviously to launch
an album. Although like a lot of classic records like

(41:08):
came out on that day, like the Dylan record Leven
Theft came out that day. I think jay Z's the
Blueprint came out, so you know, those records did okay,
but Glitter did not. And uh, yeah, the film itself,
I think is just this like disaster essentially that uh
has ended up I think having a good reputation just
because everything is so wrong that it ends up just

(41:30):
being this like camp masterpiece, you know, like people uh
like a value of the dolls or like a show
Girls type movie. So I think like revisionist history has
been kind to Glitter in retrospect, but in the moment,
it just seemed like, oh, this is the end of
Mariah Carey's career. She's never going to be able to
recover from this. She does her best to kind of
dig herself out of it. She buys herself out of

(41:52):
her multimillion dollar contract with Virgin Records that she was
with at that time, and h was reportedly considering a
contract with a Risk, which was Whitney Houston's label, and
Houston apparently went ballistic when she heard that she might
be sharing a label with her, you know, one time
art rival. Uh. Mariah didn't end up go in that direction,

(42:12):
but I think she saw m with Island, but just
there's a lot of press at the time that was
you know, Whitney let her feelings known. And in two
thousand nine, uh, Mariah Carey was struggling to finish up
her album Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel, and yeah, she's got.
My favorite Mariah Carey album title is me Maria the

(42:33):
Elusive Shantoos. I forget where the ellipses go in there,
but it's an incredible It's like somebody just like asked
her and she kind of made it up on the spot.
What do you want to call her album? Me Mariah
the Elusive shanto I just I love that. One of
many things you can say about Mariah Carey is that
she knows how to give herself nicknames. You have Mimi,

(42:54):
you have the Elusive Shantoose, you have the Imperfect Angel.
I mean it's like, oh man, you should just give
yourself nicknames all day long, like it's all gold. I
don't know where the Lamb's nickname for her fans came from.
I wonder if that was like just what you would call, like,
you know, my little lambs my fans. I always wondered
about that. Yeah, that's a that's another like again, great

(43:15):
coinage by Mariah Carey. But she was finishing this album
memoir isn't a perfect Angel, and I kept getting delayed
in like really short intervals, like you know, a week
or two at a time. And around the same time,
Whitney Houston moved up the release of her album I
looked to you one day from September one to August
thirty one, and the press just had a fueld day.

(43:36):
They said that, you know, Whitney did it symbolically to
let the world know that she was super prepared and
on time, you know, even early, unlike her, you know,
fellow diva who was tardy. And at this point she
had postponed appearances on Today, and I think she had
an episode of VH one Storytellers that got delayed, which
I don't know. I just I love that. I choose
to believe that that was like an incredible act of shade. Yeah,

(43:59):
so this is all leading up, I guess, to the
sad ending of this rivalry, which would be Whitney Houston's
death in February of two thousand twelve. Again just a
very sad story. There's like a number of documentaries about
Whitney Houston that I would recommend checking out. Um if
you don't know much about her story. It really is
like I think, again an instance, I think of a

(44:21):
of a pop star being in this gilded cage in
a lot of ways where she just was not allowed,
I think, for the longest time to be herself, and
then it seems like that caused her to overcorrect and
go down this terrible path, like with Bobby Brown and
like all this these you know, bad decisions that ended
up really taking her life off a track and tragically

(44:44):
ending it at two young of an age. And uh,
there's a story that, like I guess Mariah Carey and
Whitney Houston had had dinner in eleven I think Matt
long before Whitney Houston died. I'm not sure exactly what
the timeline there was, but I think it was like
a year before she died. It was a year before
she died. And Maria Carrey actually ended up going to
Whitney Houston's funeral, and uh, she she was on Good

(45:07):
Morning America I think a few days after that, and
her grief, I think it seems sincere like it seems
like she really was kind of wrecked by this happening.
I mean, there's a there's a quote from that appearance,
which she says, I'm almost incapable of talking about this still.
I think we all are. It's very heavy emotionally. I
don't think people could ever really understand our relationship. There
was always the supposed ravelry in the beginning, and then

(45:28):
we did it, and then we did the duet which
I guess is the Prince of Egypt song and became friends.
I saw her towards the end. I loved her. We
all loved her, and we were all inspired by her.
And you know, I'll take that at face value. I
think so. I think definitely from like Brian Carrey's perspective. Again,
you know, I think she probably sensed that Whitney Houston
was a little threatened by her. She could sense some
hostility from her, and it maybe made her feel awkward

(45:50):
at times, and therefore that might have caused her to
like blow her off at certain situations. But it seemed
like she did, I think down I think in her
heart like did like Whitney Houston. I think she probably
revered her and it understood that like Whitney Houston helped
paved the way for her own career. Yeah, I mean
that relationship. It's tough to lose an inspiration and stuff,

(46:11):
to lose a friend. But when they're all those sort
of unresolved feelings like that too, which I tend to
believe that they probably were, and that makes it so
much worse when there's so much sort of left on
said between them, I've assumed too. Yeah, that was sad.
And she led the tribute at the Whitney Houston UM
tribute at the Sorry b T Awards, although she didn't sing,

(46:33):
which I always thought was interesting. But she got up
there and talked about her memories of her time with
with Whitney but incredibly sad story. And she talked about too,
about how she felt like the industry pit her against
Whitney Houston and then she felt like it was it
was sort of like larger forces coming into play. And
we've talked about this in other episodes, like in our
uh Cardi b in Nicki Minaj episode that sometimes there's

(46:57):
this idea I think, where, oh, especially if you're a woman,
that like, oh, you're the woman in this lane, there
can only be one woman here. If another woman comes along,
that means that you have to fight for supremacy for
this spot. And you know, we haven't really talked about
that a lot in this episode, but I mean there
probably was some of that as well. I mean, not
so much I think coming from either Mariah or Whitney

(47:19):
so much maybe, but like from people like Tommy Motola,
you know, who was consciously molding Mariah Carey somewhat against
her own will to be like the next Whitney Houston,
and you know, and maybe that just kind of got
them off on the wrong foot and caused tension that
didn't need to exist. I think what you said something
like that when they were doing the Upper Show together
for the Prince of Egypt soundtracks, she said, you know,

(47:39):
this is just sexism. Like you've got Dan rather than
Ted Coppold. You don't see like the press pitting them
against each other like that. You know, it's just there.
There can be more than one. It's not it's not Braveheart.
We're gonna take a quick break and get a word
from our sponsor before we get to more rivals. All right,

(48:02):
So we've now reached the part of the episode where
we give the pro side from each side of the rivalry.
Let's talk about Whitney Houston first. I had to say that,
like in terms of just you know, the vocal quality.
I'm probably more on the Whitney Houston side. I just
love her voice, and I think that the story of
her career often is her elevating material that like wasn't great,

(48:24):
but like because of her voice, she just lifted it
up so much. She could redeem songs again that we're
sort of middle of the road and not terribly exciting.
You know. It's it's sad to me that, like Whitney Houston,
I don't know if she ever got much of an
opportunity to really show up what she could do, which
is kind of a weird thing to say about someone

(48:44):
who's as successful as she is. But you know, if
she could have been with the right producer that could
have given her the songs that were worthy of her talent,
I just wonder what she could have done. I mean,
if you look at I Will Always Love You as
an example, like that is an under notably great song,
you know, written by a world class songwriter, Dolly Pardon,
and she made it her own. I mean, she knocked

(49:07):
it out of the park, and I just wonder, like,
what what could she have done with like more songs
of that caliber. It's just like one of the many
sort of sad things about her untimely death. You know,
she should still be here making music, and it's it's
tragic that she's not. Yeah, I always thought her gospel
training helped her sort of transmit emotion a little better
than Mariah could through through her music. And Mariah I

(49:30):
think has a slightly bigger range. She's got the whistle
tones and all that, but you're right, Whitney has this
like kind of dusky, heavier tone, uh five octaves, which
is still nuts. Um. And I think that there was
some thoughts about how her last couple albums, which didn't
really sell as well, we're kind of her like late
era Sinatra records, where she could you know, because her
voice wasn't the same after years of drug use, but

(49:52):
it still had that ability to convey that incredible emotion.
And um, I also think when he was a better
live performer than Mariah. And that's not just because that
Mariah has been you know, all the lip syncn controversies
in recent years. I think that Whitney. I think Mariah
was more of a technician. I think Whitney liked to
sort of divert from the recorded version and really almost

(50:12):
like a jazz singer and just and kind of get
more interesting with it live she could improvise, whereas I
think Mariah kind of stayed as close to the recorded
version as possible. Um. I mean, you know, they're both incredible. Whitney,
I do not realize the most awarded female musician in
history and second overall behind Michael Jackson six hundred awards

(50:33):
in her lifetime with seven Grammy Awards and Mariah clarks
in at eleventh with I think two hundred and eighty
one awards and five Grammys. Um, and she is just twoards,
just just ignored Mariah Carey. Uh yeah. I mean, you know,
if if you go over to the pro Mariah carry side,
I think it's fair to say that she's had the

(50:55):
better overall career. I mean, here we are thirty years
later after her first hit Vision and of Love, and
I feel like, you know, Maria Carey is still someone
that she could put out a record next week and
people would have expectations that it could be good. You know,
I think there's still an idea, especially among pop fans,
that she is like a legacy artist that's worth paying
attention to. And you know, I mentioned this earlier. We

(51:15):
didn't spend much time talking about it, but like All
I Want for Christmas as You is like a modern standard.
It is like the most popular Christmas song like for
many many years, and I think it will continue to
have that status for years to come. So like if
her reputation was just like writing and recording that song, like,
she'd be set for life. But um, you know, I

(51:36):
think another thing about Mariah Carey too that is inspiring
is that, you know, she did have that dark period
where uh, it did seem like maybe her career was
over and she was able to pull out of it
and do really well, And it is, um a nice
contrast with the tragedy of the Whitney Houston story. You
know who, Whitney Houston went into a tail spin that

(51:57):
she wasn't able to pull out of sadly, But Maria
Carey eight is I guess the counterexample showing that you
can go through difficult times but you can also find
a way out of it. So as a survivor, I
think you also have to give Mariah Carrier props. Absolutely,
she is I think my favorite of the two. I
just think she has a much more adaptable voice suited

(52:18):
to many different styles. I think her transition over to
hip hop with songs like Heartbreaker and Honey and all
the O d B remixes were successful because she has
this really, you know, sultry, breathy, silky quality to her voice.
I think if Whitney came from the church, Mariah came
from the opera. Her mother was was an opera singer
and sort of trained her as a little girl. And
I think her voice was a lot more elastic. Uh.

(52:39):
And as I said earlier, I mean she she has
a greater arrange and uh, I mean and and just
for songwriting, like you said, I think she's writing credits
on seventeen of her eighteen number ones. Uh. And the
only one that she does in is a cover of
Michael Jackson Jackson five song I'll Be There. Um God,
all I want for Christmas is you. I mean, it
got to number one this year. I mean, or in

(53:00):
the Christmas en that is insane. The staying power of
that song. I mean, the number of insane stats for
Mariah is just off the charts. I mean, she's tied
with Taylor Swift for the third best selling female singer
of all time, has the most number ones of any
singer ever. With nineteen best selling single All I Want
for Christmas, you have sold sixteen million copies. First female

(53:21):
with debut at number one on the Hot one hundred,
only person to have three songs debut at number one,
and the only person to have a streak of five
number one singles twice in a row. I just it's
unreally not bad, not bad, not bad Maria. So if
we look at these two together, I think it's fair
to say that even now that if you are like
an aspiring diva yourself, that these are the two go

(53:44):
to standards, you know, like you want to be Whitney
or Maria, or you want to be both of them. Um,
And I really feel like, you know, for all the
talk that we've had in this episode about them being rivals,
of them being pitted against each other, it seems like
at this moment in history that if you like one,
you probably we like the other. You know, they're both
pop royalty at this point, So the rivalry I think

(54:05):
has been put to bed. They're both great, and I
think everyone loves both of them. Yeah, you know, Mariah
got her name after the song they call the Wind
to Mariah and I always thought that was appropriate because
her voice was just like the air. It's just this
breathy sound that just and Whitney had this fiery gospel intensity.
I think it's just it's like fire and air. It's elemental,
it's you know, it's a matter of preference. Like you said, opinion,

(54:27):
I don't think someone who likes one hates the other.
I think they're both in supremely talented and worthy of
their status as virtuoso's and pop powerhouses. Well, Jordan's this
episode is has me feeling emotions and Steven, I will
always love you. Well, on that note, I think it's
time for us to sign off, so we will be
back next week with more feuds and beefs and long

(54:48):
saving resentments here in Rivals Take Care. Rivals is a
production of My Heart Radio. The executive producers are Seawan
Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chacogne
and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stack. I'm

(55:08):
Jordan Runt Talk, and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like
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