Neil Strauss | Journalism, Podcasting and Inspiration

Neil Strauss, is a versatile figure in media, finding success as a journalist for Rolling Stone, bestselling author, cultural commentator, and creator of the hit podcast "To Live and Die in LA." Join us as we explore his multifaceted career as he offers listeners a front-row seat to the engaging intersections of journalism, literature and podcasting.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to
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com or on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and
iHeart Podcasts.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Listener discretion is advised. And we are back. Well, I
say we, but it's just me, Mike. Now it's just me.
I'm alone in the office, all by myself, but I
see Dylan in front of me with headphones on, and
it's awkward. He's just filming me. Hey, Dylan, Mike is

(00:40):
at the beach, and I'm kind of jealous, to be honest.
He's in DestinE and I was supposed to go too,
but my schedule got all messed up and I had
like a million different obligations this weekend and next week,
and I'd much rather be at the beach like Mike.
But instead, I'm not so Mike. I'm pissed, but I'm

(01:04):
also happy for you, and I hope you get summerned.
I have a really, really exciting guest today. This person
is an absolute legend. He is one of the best,
most talented journalists. I think out there of all time.
His name is Neil Strauss. He's been a writer and

(01:27):
journalist for The Rolling Stone four years. This person has
gained access to some of the most exclusive people in
the world and written about them. And every time that
we have a conversation together, I feel like I learned
something new. He's a g He's somebody that I can
learn from and I constantly do. I first met Neil

(01:51):
a few years ago. We did a podcast together called
to Live and Die in la and if you haven't
listened to that, you definitely need to. It's an absolutely
compelling story, true crime story, and he's the real deal.
He is an investigative journalist who gets his hands dirty,
is on the ground making all the connections stuff that's

(02:14):
not easy to do. If you haven't listened to To Live
in dna A, you must. It's a must listen. Just
go binge it right now. He also has a new
podcast out with Tenderfoot that is just as good, if
not better. It's called to Die For and it's the
most bizarre story about sexpionage. I didn't even know what

(02:36):
that was when I first was pitched this idea. In
the spy world espionage, there's a thing. It's called sexpionage,
where essentially a person uses the idea of sex or
sex in general to gain access to people and get

(02:59):
information and trick them. He builds this relationship with this
woman and she tells her story and it's by far
one of the craziest things I think I've ever heard
in my life. That's also available now to Binge Go Binge,
to Live In, Die In LA, and to Die For.
I sat down with Neil to talk about his new show,

(03:19):
Talk about investigative journalism life, and I think that you'll
see what I'm talking about once you hear his interview today. So,
without further ado from Tenderfoot TV and Atlanta by myself,
here is your next guest, Neil Strauss.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, we were just talking. We were just talking before
catching up. It's been a les since we saw each other,
and we were trying to like figure out how many
podcasts you're doing, and I think we got it down
to this is the weekly Yes podcast and then as
far as is that seasonal, There's Up and Vanished, High
Strange Radio Rental, YEP, Dead and Gone, and each of

(04:08):
those being like eight to fifteen episodes.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
You're stressing me out. I'm stressed out. I was like,
for you, don't keep naming them. Yeah. Yeah, it's been
a logistical juggle here. Yeah, but so far, so good.
But at some point I'm gonna be like, oh, oh,
it's really up and vanish right now. That's kind of
you know, taking a lot of my brain, right because
you know, doing a deep dive, long form narrative on

(04:33):
an unsolved crime is just about as tough as it gets,
I feel like.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
And journalism, yeah, I mean the next podcast I'm doing
for which we haven't asked yet, but is literally like
it's been like a year of constant work, so it
takes me so long to do them.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Do you like the long part of it or are
you're just used to that or is that just the
way it has to happen?

Speaker 2 (04:55):
The answer is I feel like the long. If you're
going to do something that's compose more documentary style, I
feel like then taking your time to really really craft
it so it's something you're just proud of forever, or
feel accomplished the job you wanted to accomplish in the
best way possible.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
It's important where you feel like you did it, though, Like,
do you feel like it was perfect when you put
it out, or do you or do you not look
at it that way?

Speaker 2 (05:22):
The answer that's a good question. In the moment I
put it out, I put that feel that it's perfect,
and once it's out and there's nothing I can do
about it, I try to let go of it. Yeah,
you have to write, like I tell my friends if
they're for they're listening, like read it looking in a
book I wrote or a podcast. I'm like, before it's out,
I really want your critical feedback, tell me everything that's
wrong with it, tell me all the mistakes. Just don't

(05:43):
spare me anything. But once it's out, just tell me
it's great.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
It's too late. Yeah, just a good job. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
So are you looking any more besides those five that
I mentioned.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
I mean not eminently, no, I mean really, it's it's
this show right now that we're focusing on, and it's
up and vanished the new season. It's a case in Alaska.
So we've been going back and forth to know im Alaska,
and we got I mean, we're really deep into We
probably have thirty plus interviews and made some serious headway.
Haven't started producing the actual episodes yet like audio form,

(06:15):
but have a good outline going. That'll be a whole gauntlet.
But we've done it enough times and have enough people
to help out. I feel like we're kind of just
putting the shoes back on and trying to up to
Anny a little bit. Yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
It's man, you know, I really think it's tough to well,
first of a one time with your time management, and
then I want to get to say that the toughness
of really trying, like you said, you make you make
headway on these cases and you're such have a real
idea what happened, and then getting the information out of
someone's head who might be responsible, right, is such a
challenge you do that?

Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, I mean it's such a challenge to challenging to you.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's hard to there's a
new case I'm looking at for for to live and
die in La pretty clear what happened. It's just the
craziest thing. I've like a good idea of this kind
of dark but hopeful for the family. I mean they're
they've been closely involved, but of where the body is

(07:12):
and and and uh and all these kinds of things.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
But they're.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Things where you can't. Where you can't match it, you can't.
I don't want to give away too much where it
doesn't always fit or something f you're missing a little
piece of information that will draw a line from X
to Y and everything around it points to that. But
without that piece of information, you can't really say that.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
I wish I could be more specific. And in your head,
is there a person that likely murdered somebody here? I
mean your opinion in.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
This case, they're like some people behaving like super suspiciously.
Whereas everybody's willing to help, everybody's willing to get in
and and and help out in any way possible, knows
this person except for some people who strangely won't.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
How much do you rely on your gut instincts? I
think you can't. You can't explain that to me. Yeah,
do you ignore them or do you just compartmentalize that?

Speaker 2 (08:17):
I think you can. I think you compartmentalize that. As
another I think you have to compartmentalize it, because your
gut instinct is going to be just so wrong if
you think about this, think about social media. We've spent
too much time thinking about it. So whereas somebody reads
a news article or see someone. They take three pieces

(08:39):
of information, and people can cuct an entire narrative out
of three piece of information. They wink they know who
somebody is because they have three piece of information out
of all the data of their life. And I think
it's really easy when you're doing a podcast to take
a couple of information, a couple piece of information, think
you have a narrative, get a few more, realize that
narrative changes, get a few more, and realize. And so

(08:59):
I think you got to get is. I think you
have to your gut how about this, and see if
you agree with this? Your gut uh is information to investigate.
So if you're good at saying this, well that's something
to investigate. But what you have to do is pull
as many data points together as possible until possibilities start

(09:21):
to eliminate themselves.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
I tend to follow my gut, but I also conscious
consciously check myself, Like you know, I go out of
my way and say, hey, let's let's think about this
from a different angle here, right. And I know you've
had the instinct, but sometimes that is not entirely correct
because it's based on limited information or whatever it is. Yeah,

(09:47):
So it's a mix. But I've found that a lot
of times it's pointing somewhere or or it will be
a thing where my gut's telling me, don't waste your
time over here. Yeah, I I mean I found that.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
I found that if you get enough that was gonna
name a write a book about some of the cases
called everyone is Suspicious.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
And maybe I'll still write it. I probably will. That's
a that's a good title. Yeah, yeah, you take that one.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Okay, you could take it podcast the sixth pod, seventh podcast.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, it's you'll host, yes, so.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
And the idea is that just everybody can start to
look suspicious after a while. I remember with like a
season two of To Live In with Elaine Park, we
were just letting there are so many people who were
suspicious in her life who we didn't who we explore,
who we didn't put the podcast, but we were like,
oh my god, this is it's her.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
As an example, there was a behind the scenes moment
where you're thinking is this the person? And then you
move past that or what Yeah? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
That's about the data points where all of a sudden
you're like, oh my god, her tattoo artist, who uh
who she saw just right before she appeared was supposed
to see and cancel the appointment, has this criminal record
we didn't know about. And then you look up some
stuff on social media and maybe there's a couple of

(11:11):
words that seems suspicious and you're like, oh my god,
this could be it. And then you start investigating talking
to them and looking at all the other data points
and realizing that's not a possibility. But literally, you can
name anyone sometimes in someone's life and they can start
to look. And by the way, I do want to say,
just for the record, that tattoo artists that spend some
time with them and it's a great guy.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah good, yeah, but the guy. But just is it
human nature you think for people to want to connect
the dots or something and make things fit when they
don't necessarily objectively fit. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
I think humans love narrative, We love stories. Storytelling is
how we get around. That's why we learned through metaphor.
All the works of spiritual and religious tradition write our
stories through which we learned these lessons. And we're just
like meaning making machine. So we can just look at
two or three pieces of data and I think we

(12:05):
have it all figured out, and I think that's the
danger of some of this stuff.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
So what fixes that self awareness or something.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
What fixes this is like humility, Yeah, humility and accepting uncertainty. Right,
So to say, maybe that piece of data is true,
and that piece of data is true, but that doesn't
mean that the third thing is then true.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, we don't have to conjure up an answer.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, because because we fill in the gaps with story.
Like you said, you might have a gut or an
instinct on something and it feels right right, and then
I can certainly think in these cases other people I've spoken,
I went and went to a dinner once and we
was talking about the case ies investigating, and everyone had
their own theory of and I named the suspects. Everyone
had their own theory who did it, and their theory

(12:50):
often had more to do with their own personal.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Appreciation of something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
I guess someone has a troubled relationship with X, so
of course the X did it? You know, right, life
exactly so people, so sometimes our God is just projection.
By the way, to wrap up the other thought, it
was even necessary conclude exactly here's who did it? To

(13:17):
include does you just have to get as many data
points as possible and then research the actors of those
data points, because it's crazy. I just it's the when
I do write a book, I fact check it like
insan like like a like. I spent months fact checking it.
And I remember there were one of my books had
statistics on infidelian relationships and we went and called the
researcher who this was credited to. He was all over

(13:38):
the internet just to make sure it was true. And
I remember she said, I didn't say this. It's all
of the internet. I can't stop it. This is not
from my research. So literally, we rely on so much
information that's just wrong and an accurate in our culture
or being friends with people who get written about in
the media and things like that, and knowing what the
real story may.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Be, right exactly. Yes, it's often a little different, yeah,
m hmm. I mean I was doing a lot, like
a lot of just digging on all the work you've
done in your career before we met here today, and
just reminded again of all the cool shit you've done.
And you've been a journalist, you know, through and through
for a long time, and I wanted to ask you

(14:20):
Why do you like it? Right?

Speaker 2 (14:23):
I think the reason is I love I'm just very
curious and I'm really more interested in what's happening now
or next than anything that happened or I did before,
if that makes sense. So I think why I love
curios driving, Yeah, it's totally driven by curiosity and trying
to understand the world and through that maybe trying to
understand a little more about myself.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
What have you learned about humans in general? Having talked
to so many different people and sometimes very deeply and
in difficult situations.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
See what have I learned about humans in general? It's funny,
is it? My friend Robert Green he wrote a book
called Laws of Human Nature, which I need to read.
That might be the best place to answer that. He
might be the best person for that question. That most
humans are people just they're just people trying their best,
you know, and really trying to figure it out. And

(15:11):
I think the most best thing I learned is really
having empathy for everybody except for like literally, I think
I've went that one or two true psychopaths in my.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Life, really, And who were they? I can't say their
names because I'm still scared of them. Like literally, well, really, yeah,
like they're out and about behind bars or something. One
is one? Is it? Okay? Yeah, Well what's the safer one?
Or is he imminently getting out?

Speaker 2 (15:35):
I would never I would just never say it. Really,
I mean, I mean I spoke to that.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
I mean this.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
If you ever run across the site like a true psychopath,
and hopefully we'll explain that to me, then okay, this.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Is a true psychopath here.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, there's a there's a I think there's a difference
between a lot of people say, oh, my ex partner,
whether business or relationship partner, was a psychopath.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
It's tossed around a lot, gets tossed around a.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Lot because they think, well, if they hurt me, they
must be a psychopath because I'm a great person, right, okay, psychopathy, Okay, psychopath.
But most people are just dealing with their own trauma
and their own confusion, feeling unresolved emotional issues. They're saying,
we're all victims of victims. You know, does that mean
that means like most people This is gonna be another

(16:20):
thing we're gonna say, what does that mean most people
who perpetrate you do something bad as someone else do
it from the position of them being a.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Victim, them viewing themselves as the victim in this scenario. Yes, okay,
And what does that do if you're doing.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
That, It allows you to think that it's right to
hurt someone else.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Okay, you're giving yourself permission to do something. Maybe.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, I mean look at if you look at any
historical atrocity, it was like it was justified through a
victim lens. If you really go look at whatever, the propagari.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Killer or something where you know, my mom was.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
A serial killers. What I'm saying is a circular is different. Okay,
So we're talking about difference between people who just harm
others and people who are actually psychopaths who enjoy harming others.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Okay, so up and just literally enjoy it. Yeah, what
is this?

Speaker 2 (17:10):
So that's the difference. That's what I'm saying is like
the reason why these they're scariest because they literally get
pleasure from hurting other people. That's literally their pleasure, the
way we get pleasure from like a bike ride, and
and they're consciously doing this, and if you're on their radar,

(17:31):
you're a potential target.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
That's scary.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
So the reason you don't want to mention their name,
because you don't want to be on their radar.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
No, I don't yeh, don't bring me into this. Yeah.
I mean literally.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Talk to someone once who said, like, I don't like
to kill people because you kill them, they're not around
to fear you anymore.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
That's pretty bad. He likes to just.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Maybe keep them in terror.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
And so so again, maybe that's a degree or a
class of psychopath. And I'm sure there's people along the
different people on the psycho psychopathy range. But if you've
met this and really I didn't understand what evil.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Was, so you think that this is not excusable in
some way from a solely a mental illness or something,
and that they're they're conscious enough that they're just making
decisions and they want to hurt people.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
I mean to backing up, nothing's excusable or course, but
there's but there's the boundary there. But there's always like
a blob. But we're trying under what we're trying to do.
I think we understand why people perpetrate. Maybe we can
lessen it, right, okay, right, And so by a wrangle
one night, So it's not saying oh that's okay because
you felt like you're victim or not say that it's fine,

(18:45):
he found it. What is saying it is like, oh,
these this is the the UH recipe for perpetration, and
so we can maybe start to see the signs, intervene,
see that kind of thinking, know how to protect ourselves,
you know, watch it happening, and the culture get get
smarter about right about versus learn prevent it, versus saying oh,

(19:10):
they're just evil. They're just evil people doing evil things.
That's not they're they literally people think they're right. They
have to think they're right almost to do it if
they're not a complete psychopath.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
We were talking last night. I was just saying that,
out of almost all the people that I know, you're
one of the the people that can talk to others
the best. And I think you have a lot of
experience doing that, and you've probably talked to people who
are very different than you have you know, a checkered past.
I was curious how you were able to get better

(19:43):
at that at all, and how you've what your journey
has been like through learning about yourself. I'm sure through
that process.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, you know, I thought about it more, by the way,
and I prefer being in your side of the mic
than mine.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I know my show.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah it's fine, exactly exactly, but I think that the
rea and is.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
You're good at it. You already asked me questions. Yeah,
he's done, he's good, exactly exactly getting me. We're still
we're still going to get back to your time manager.
Oh yeah, all of the mask question in a second.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I just I'm really because I really think just
and I'll get back to your thing about my but
why I do that, it's them thoughts on that. But
it is interesting. I think you're the only person I know.
You know, most people just have a podcast and they
do it and then maybe they start like a side podcast,
but like you kind of the only person like has
a whole constellation. Yeah, podcast constellation never chilled out. You're

(20:33):
unique in the field to flow down. Yeah, yeah, or
maybe not. That's I mean, that's who you are.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
I think that's I mean, honestly, when I first got
into this space, I viewed this and I think I was,
you know, at least a little bit correct on this
that I needed to make the most of this, right.
This was going to be the thing that if I
made it work, I could do all the other things
that I want to do in my life too down
the road, and so that it kind of was a

(21:00):
blinders on thing for a couple of years, just kind
of knowing that it might be kind of hard, but
if you can build something bigger out of this, it
will have been worth it. And just toughen up and
try to do it because it could be better for you.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, but do you think in making the most of
it that like you can make too much of it
in at then degrade you're just either your quality of
life or oh when people are kind of confused, like
people can kind of follow everything you're doing.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Absolutely, I think so. But I also think that, you know,
if we're in the time span of you know, six
years or so, maybe almost seven, I don't know. I
wanted to be able to show people that I can
do other things, right. I wanted to make Radio Rental
that was a whole fictional world that I built that
was like an anthology series of real stories, blending stuff

(21:47):
that you kind of knew me from and that I
can I can world build too, right, I can do
something over here, which is really what I wanted to
do first. Right, that was like what I was most into.
I kind of fell into being a journalist, which sounds bizarre.
So yeah, it's like a balancing act. And if I
didn't love it, I would be I wouldn't have done

(22:09):
this much stuff, right. I do like the freedom and
liberation of Hey, every time you do this, it's a
it's a new adventure, and I like the adventure mindset
of life sometimes and and there's freedom.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
I mean you having also done the TV thing with
Discovery is also like the freedom of I feel like
when you do a podcast you really can communicate it
and real quick.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
How much freedom I did not have anymore? Yeah, right
on the thing that I made by me with me
in it. Yeah, I know exactly. That wouldn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
And imagine, yeah, imagine they actually if it's so funny
how they don't. They're like, we want you because your
unique point of view and sensibility and take on these things.
Right then, don't do what you do.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
But don't give us any of that. Do what we do.
The weird it's the weirdest bass. I've never understood it. Yeah,
I'm sure you've experienced that too. Yeah, it's it's the
wildest thing.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
I remember, like I was doing something for HBO and
it was an hour long trauma and then they said,
you know, we love it, but just Entourage just left
the air. We did half our comedy to replace Entourage.
You could just turn half our comedy replace Entourage. We'll
put it on the air, so they so if we
do it, we start, we turn it in, you know
when we go through like eighteen draft where they keep

(23:19):
giving you notes and then they we get it through,
like you know, it's really good, but we're not looking
for something to replace Entourage right now.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
Okay, well why do you say that? It just literally
makes no sense. They're just a walking contradiction.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, and I really made a mistake. It was a
show with James Gandolfini before he passed, and he gave
me the advice and I was always it's like a beautiful,
beautiful soul in person, like truly really truly, like great
great hearts, surrounded by this like gruff, you know, this
kind gruff, no nonsense wall. I was just really like

(23:55):
I really really and he gave me so much advice
that I either took or regreted not taking.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
The life stuff.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
He was like fuck him. His advice was like fuck him.
You do do exactly what you want. Oh wow, don't
listen to them because they're going to screw it up.
And his other thing was and the audience doesn't have
to understand it. You can just you don't have to
explain nothing.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
To the audience.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Really, so he really was like very uh and uncompromising artistic,
but he was also right. I think when you watch
something and it's pandering the audience, you're trying to make
sure everybody's there, versus just really telling the story like
you do in your podcast, the story you want to
tell and the way you want to tell. That's possible,
of course you consider the audience. You make it interesting

(24:38):
for the audience or I don't want you to not
like those right, but you're not but not tethered to you.
He would say you should know and your character should
always know more than the audience.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, that is definitely true.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
I feel that I found yeah yeah, and he really
like got it so so I should have taken that advice.
But anyway, it's a surreal it's a weird business. Whereas
podcast you can have just as big of a listenership
and have creative control.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, and I've spoiled myself now It's like going to
anything else is going to be at least a little
bit more difficult unless I'm collaborating with other peers of
mine who are just giving me a shot at being
more in charge, which I think I could eventually get
to that point, but I get probably at one or
two of those before I don't get that again.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, I mean notes are great, feedback is great. All
those things make something better. But when it's like when
it's this is our formulam what we do and know
that won't work, and it's all fear based stuff. Yeah,
I think anything fear based in anything creative is a
detriment of my question about to go about your question?

Speaker 1 (25:43):
All these question people that you talk to, which see
you're so good at talking to me, how do you
How are you able to make that connection with people
that others may not be able to or just from
a black and white viewpoint, you'd think there's no way
this guy would talk to you, but they are. How
do you manage the.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
Did a lot of interviews for Rolling Stone in the
New York Times, like thousands of them with some highly
guarded people of them.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
At this point, there.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Might be damn, it might be I mean, I've done
thousands of articles. Maybe it's less interviews, maybe it's a lot.
Maybe it's like high hundreds, close to one thousand. I
don't know, but it's a lot. I mean because I
had like a weekly column there, and I'd probably write
about five articles a week there, and a weekly comment
might have two or three interviews or two interviews. You
know what probably is if I even count everyone who

(26:30):
I called just to get quotes and things like that,
it's got to be thousands. Oh absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, yeah,
we have months before exactly. So so the answer is this,
not to try to use them for my purposes. You know,
which are what which are telling the story? Which are

(26:52):
let's say you're interviewing some celebrity who has some scandal
or something like that.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
Sure, and like today with me and you with me
and you right, exactly.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
And and so but as soon as you if you're
speaking from the point of I just I watch interviewers
and it like hurts me. I try people interview someone
and they think they're being a journalist by asking the
hard hitting questions, So why did you say that about
that other celebrity or what why did you do that?
And then once you start coming from that judgmental judgment,

(27:27):
that media judgmental place. Well, how does someone act when
they're judged If someone is judging me, Yeah, it feels judgmental.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
That's it. Welcome, I don't fuck with you then, But
you're stuck with it with the interview. No anymore, you're out,
you like so long? Yeah, I mean, unless I'm like
being bolted to the chair. I mean, if I was
really offended, I would just I would at the very least,
I would do probably what you're thinking right now. I
would just say less, yes exactly. Or if I'm not leaving,

(27:56):
I'm saying less and not telling you all the details
that you want exact.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Or a child raised by a judgmental parent closing up
doesn't show their authentic self because you don't want to
be judged negatively, right and so and so one is
not being judgmental, not trying to like ask questions just
to get answers. I try to like see the world
through their eyes and through their point of view.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Like trying to really understand their perspective to write paint
that picture.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yeah, so say so, if it's somebody who went through
a breakup, that like the media question might be, like,
you know, might be why did you break up with
that person? Or how deeply impacted you know, they're doing
some media thing, but what they're really thinking about is, God,
I'm stressed out. I'm trying to go going through a
real deep heartbreak and everything is wrong and messed up

(28:47):
about in the media and just compounding my pain, you know,
and actually empathize what it's like to go through break
them on this public level with people writing all this
shit about it probably isn't even true. They're going to
be feel heard and seen. It's not a technique. It's
just I'm really trying to think of, what's it like.
It's hard enough to go through a breakup. All of
us listening have gone through a breakup. I'm sure we've

(29:09):
all gone through a hard breakup. If we've gone through one,
and it's hard and it's painful and it's confusing, and
you can be shattered and not feel like yourself, and
then imagine that the whole world is watching you go
through this. What a horrible you know, and so you
don't want to be another cause of pain when you're
interviewing something like that. So I think it's I think
it's being curious, trying my best to understand what world

(29:34):
is like from their perspective.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Do you call upon things that have happened to you
in your life in terms of similarity to make a
connection or to try to understand how they may feel
based on how it may relate to something that you've experienced.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, it's a great question. Like we're having a dialogue now,
and I love having a dialogue, and I'm obviously very
open because we're just chatting, and I'm forgetting I'm holding
this five pound mica whistle later, but yeah, I know
exactly I should have done that shoulder work today.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, I shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
So I find it true also that I've definitely done
interviews where someone just ask questions, here's the next question,
here's the next question. They give nothing of themselves.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, that seems very and.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
I feel so raw and vulnerable and I don't like
I don't like that either.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
And sometimes I've seen people share something as a manipulative tech,
manipultive tech.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Why why are you sharing that? Right? Right? Yeah? And
I feel like it's a if I want someone to
be vulnerable with me, it's kind of my new philosophy
that have kind of just developed over the years, then
I should be will I have to be willing to
be vulnerable with you, right, And if we can do
that and I can just show you my hand, then
maybe we're laying it all out here and we're actually
learning something from each other today. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
I mean I've definitely been with journalists as an interviewee
where I'm like, and what what about your situation with that?
Because I'm curious and they're like, oh, I'm the I'm
the interviewer.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Here, like I could be on the other side, right,
I'm like, oh, so, yeah, so on the other side.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
I remember asking the journalist once, well, what what's your
experience with that? And I think they were like, I'm
the interviewer here. So I was like, oh, if you're
not gonna show any vulnerability, I just feel less comfortable
opening up.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah. I think that there hasn't been a lot of
times where I've been on the other side of it
where I really felt like someone was, you know, getting
deeper with me in that way as the interviewee, right right,
a couple of times. But I think maybe because I
do this so much, I also had this sort of

(31:32):
a little bit of a guard up, just to figure
out what the purpose of this is and just being
aware of what this story is going to be and lust.
You'll tell you truly like you could probably get out
of me. But I don't know. Not everyone would do that,
And most people don't offer that sort of connection where
they seem like they really care. There's checking down the list,

(31:56):
and I don't like that. You're gonna get very deep
with me, just like, what do you want me to say?
I'll just say that, you know, because.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
I want to it to hurt you. As as example,
I remember I was interviewing Tom Cruise for Rolling Stone
and Hell's Cruise House Cruise. Yeah, he said, yeah, he's
bad ass. Yeah, he's so great.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
He's so great.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
He's like i'd love you know. I noticed these little things.
But if he's talking to you, say you're out at
a whim, he's talking to you, He'll keep talking. He
never looks over his shoulder. Anyone else will keep talking
to you actually like say oh we're done, and he'll
just he'll stay there, really present with you.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
I've never seen like give me example.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
I mean, normally, if you're out and you see somebody
at a part or something like that. They'll like, Hey,
what's up, It's so great to see you. Usually they're
like they're out. The eyes will turn away, then their
body will turn away, right, and they're sort of and
he's there. And even though he's probably one of the
most in demand people, he's just planted and he's giving
you his full focus, his full attention.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
He's fully listening. Uh.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
I never seen that after he like, well, he invited me.
He invited him with scientology celebrity Gallo after I did
the article. So I went there and so I just
there was and that's obviously his his comfort zone.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
Obviously.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
So I just noticed that, and I just noticed him
like that with other people, and that he'd really keep
eye contact. And you'll notice most people, most people break
eye contact and move away.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
You're good, thanks, and whybody?

Speaker 2 (33:18):
When he was done, he would actually like keep the
eye contact longer as he It's a weird thing, but
he kids hard to say, but his body would move
away later I'm talking, he would keep the eye He
really was great. He was just a really just a
unique person. But the point I was going to make
was this, I was curious about science. I want to
understand scientology, not to like do a takedown or anything

(33:39):
like that.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
I just like, what's the deal with this? Right?

Speaker 2 (33:41):
And obviously it's important too, And so he took me
to the Scientology buildings. He pulled out textbooks, taught me
about the different scientology things. He so I got to
understand it that I wrote an article that just share
the experience without judging it. Just share the experience if
you can read it and judge it. And I think,
I remember, and I've done this other people. I don't
move open had an effect. Remember who was open more

(34:02):
open about scientology afterward? And then he some people said
some like nasty stuff and then he kind of shut
down about it. But I don't feel like it's my
place to to judge unless someone's really truly like harmed,
to judge someone else's life choices, unless they're really harming
someone else, it's.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Like, okay, you don't this isn't your jam, that's fine, Yeah,
who's If someone's not being hurt, then it's okay, do
whatever you want, Like, I'm not here to rule your life.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah yeah, Like if you're yeah, yeah exactly, or did
you just do a gotcha?

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah? I don't know what weird shit you're into.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
Right exactly, We're good talk about it. So my my,
remember my editor at Rolling Stone early Joe Levy, said
that your job is to find out what makes people tick,
and so I always wanted to with like, I want
to find out what makes people tick, Like you can't
meet whoever it is, Tom Cruise, Lady Gago, whoever I interviewed,
and so I will try to meet them for you

(34:59):
in and give you just that experience of what.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
It might be.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Like I was gonna say, what makes me to I
don't have we got an interview for long there. I
was trying to figure out with all the podcasts trying
to get there, but you keep.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Asking me questionly. I was dancing around those answers exactly exactly,
but I mean, I mean, I think, I mean, we
could like ask a couple of questions that I am curious, like,
because you did say I want to make the most
of it, and so it made me think in my head, oh,
do you feel like there's a window that to open
up my clothes you're trying to just at one time

(35:31):
I did, yeah, I mean just because just from a
rational standpoint, not a fear of the unknown, necessarily just that, hey,
this is working better than anything else I've done before.
I've worked harder than I've ever done before. I'm at
this age where I need to grab this by the
horns and take control of my career. And that was

(35:53):
my mindset. And I think I've been able to provide
a buffer for myself now from that hard work. But
it's still a grind to me, but not as grueling
or you know, harmful to my mental health as it
was maybe at one point, just because it was so hard.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Like this is this is so what would you be like,
I'm so curious about this because huh if you didn't
have a podcast in production or that you're working on.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Like if this didn't work, like where would I be?
Or it's just a pause server at Chili's probably.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
Or no, no, I would not no, not not a
I get that, but that wasn't what It's more like
just now you're just who you are. You have all
these things, but all the seasons rap you're not doing
the weekly what am I doing? How would you feel?
Would you be antsy? Would you feel like I need
about that?

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Actually? Right? And you know people always you know, like
like my dad he retired. He's never going back to
that job worked at Luckheed Martin. He's like, fuck this place.
I never want to go back there. Ever, that's awesome.
He's living his life. He's just went to Bernie Man,
which is wild, just going on trips, you know, he's
never working a day. Is life like that? Ever? Again,

(37:03):
I don't. I think that I'll always want to do something.
I think if I sit still for too long, I'm
going to eventually be like, all right, I got an idea,
and I'm gonna want to be able to actualize that.
Maybe they won't be high pressure ideas, or I won't
be as reliant on them in some sort of monetary

(37:23):
way or you know, career building way. But I think
I'm trying to strive to get to a point where
I'm good enough, secure enough that I, I and my
other fellow creators around me can just be able to
do that and use our imaginations and try to make
shit and take risks and take it seriously because it's

(37:43):
fun and we like to do it right, and like,
that's what I like about life. And I realized that
I think I like that more than all the other things. Yeah,
you know, yeah, but it's funny.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
By the way, how I got to just note that,
how cool is it that your dack of co burning man.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
As like, would you go this year with all the mud? Yeah?
He did? Oh my god. Yeah my mom was there too.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Uh huh no, way, yeah, that's there, Like.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
It's actually really cool. We're stuck here for a few
more days, and uh, it's always not as bad as
they're staying in the news. I was like, woa, remember
remember you said that, what.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
A beautiful outlook too. I know people who were just you.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
Know, yeah, they were like enjoying the extra days and
they had my dad probably had more than enough stuff
rations so it was yeah, I was like, that's wild
just picturing them there, I'm like, I hasn't. I'm not
computing that yet. Really yeah, look good for them. Hell
yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
But yeah, I was curious too, like about the that
you always having to be doing. Oh yeah, I remember
I was gonna ask you this, it's like super uh.
By the way, you are you buried or dating someone?
I can't remember dating somebody the same person. I was
married at one point, right, we got divorced about okay
for a year, so okay, what either the marriage or
the dating. What was their biggest complaint about you as
far as your work goes?

Speaker 1 (38:51):
Oh, man, my whole life historically, through all my relationships,
in varying degrees and different chapters in my life, it's
been a struggle balancing my work. I workload my own drive,
how much I put into that and how much it
may take away from what I can give to somebody else. Yeah,

(39:14):
I've definitely gotten better at that and been more aware
of it. But the way that I do stuff, which
is like a you know it's a good and bad thing,
it's I really throw myself all the way in it,
to a point that I wouldn't even expect everyone to
understand because Donald Donald definitely, because i'd also keep if

(39:39):
it's in the hour, Yeah, yeah, to most the women
in my life. New too, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
But I guess the reason I ask the reason I asked, Like,
and I'll just plant the scene now, like you can
cut this out of the podcast. But as you're listening,
as you're talking, like, I'm just thinking, Oh, we're working
to build and to create and to do something, to
do things, but there's also another part where we're awaiting things.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Oh little, but yeah, I mean, it's like it's uh,
I just try to be more more aware of how
I'm feeling when I'm doing the job now. And I
remember distinctly when I was editing High Strange and I
was really at a good point and it was feeling
good and it was clicking. I was deep in it,
and I go, you know what, like to myself, probably

(40:20):
even out loud, consciously said I think this is my
favorite place I was, And I was like, why is that?
I think it's because it's ultimate freedom in it. I'm
in my own world that I'm creating that I am
already envisioning sharing with people. So I feel connected already,

(40:40):
even though it's not even it's just me in a
room with headphones on. It feels like I'm you know,
preparing something to share and I'm like envisioning the connection already,
and it just feels like my own little world and
it's like I think it's just that simple, but like
I'm always like chasing to get back to that point.
There's all the other annoying ship you got to do

(41:02):
when you make something that isn't as fun. Yeah, if
it's worth it, I know it's funny.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
It's like the great thing where it's you struggle so
much like it and then but it's kind of worth
it at the end. But but back to but so, yeah,
it's it's it's a safe place to connect.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yes, and it's not that vulnerable. Do you feel the
same way or how do you feel?

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Uh, unlike relationship. Unlike intimate relationships, you're you're in control. Uh,
you're still and you're you're sharing, but you're sort of
removed from everybody else whereas there is like that vulnerable
give and take, discomfort, lack of control, lack of knowing
what happens in a relationship.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
So this is.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
A safer form of relating, This is what I'm thinking.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, I would definitely be the one of the first
to admit that, you know, I like things to be
in my control. Yeah, not in a way that that
could easily sound. I could also relinquish control. But if
I'm in a position where I'm creating something from my brain,
I have to just to be able to understand it
and build it. I got to build to have a

(42:06):
level of control that allows me to build it at all. Yeah,
I think, And it's very liberating though. It's a good
feeling to do and I think I get most of
that control desire out through stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Yeah, and to and to answer your questions is a yeah.
I also think you can really control when you have trust. Yes,
So but to answer your question, I think it's like
to go like back and second and ask myself, Uh,
like I grew up just being misunderstood, always being like this.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
The people say that a lot, But what do you
mean you were misunderstood? I don't know. I mean I
literally know.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
I literally know because my mom wrote this like memoir
that she never published, and she was like, you know,
talking about my brother. He was always great in sweet
and Neil was always a problem.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
And you know, you're a problem child or in someone's eyes.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Her, in her eyes, I think most parents, most parents,
and this hope this like connects with somebody when they
say you're you were bad as a kid or a
problem as a kid, and then you go around saying
I was a bad kid, it was a problem child.
I was No, you just were. You just didn't obey,
So you're disobedient. They say you're bad to get you
to obey. And the one who disobeys or is the

(43:17):
what they might call the black sheep. Or the scapegog
wherever they call it in the in the in the
family roles kind of paradigm is actually the smartest one
who sees this family system is not right, So I'm
not going to go along with it.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Are you like a rebel mentality that could be very
generalized and sound like a Western all of a sudden,
but it's right right, right?

Speaker 2 (43:39):
I guess the simple answer is it's interesting like I
was both. I'm like half rebel and half complier even
as a child, like I didn't rebel, I didn't rebel
enough against the strictness, and and so going back to
just really feeling alone and misunderstood as a child, like
just having your intentions interpret as bad or negative all
the time when you're again, maybe that's why I've am

(44:00):
for for for feeling people missing.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Probably yeah, I never thought about that.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
So so so I turned to writing as a way
to communicate without being told I was wrong. Right, So
whatever I said, it was wrong or it was challenged
or wasn't listened to, or somehow there was a fear
element put in there. I just couldn't. I think that's
another I just couldn't communicate, articulate anything completely without getting
sort of ending up defending myself somehow.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
But you would spend time thinking about it and organizing
your thoughts and putting together something that.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, but if I really speaks to what you're if
I could, if I could write it, then I could
share it all without anyone interrupting me.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah. Just read this.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yeah, and that's my full thoughts and then you can
have all your own opinons. But I at least articulated it.
So for me then going back to creation, whether it's
a podcast or or a book or something, I feel
like I can really safely tell my story or share
my point of view.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
How do you remember the title choices for to Live
in dime on a? Oh right, how we got? How
did we get there? In your eyes?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
I want to hear your versus a discussion.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
This is funny because it's funny because I was on it.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
I was on a podcast with Dave Aspery from Bulletproof
and and I think the title that you wanted was Gonzo.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
Uh so it was that was a title suggestion that
I that is a fact. But what I really said,
I want to different that was this cannot be called
lost angelus. That was I said, you could literally name
it anything else, and we had like ten names. I
was like, I'd take any of them. Yeah, And I

(45:40):
was I was thinking about you, and I was like
Gonzo journalism, like you kind of do that. I kind
of do that too. I'm trying to give you a freebie.
And uh. Then you were like, that's a muppet and
I'm like, uh, right now it is? Or is Neil
Strauss the new thing you think of when you think
of Gonzo? Or you're gonna get memed by a muppet.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
I was trying to fuck no, But I remember, like,
but I do remember. I was attached to Los Angeles.
But uh, I just did a book with Rick Rubin,
and he has a great philosophy which is really true
and this is where that.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Was Philosophy's never met him, but I love all the
things he says about creating.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, and he says, if you both don't agree on something,
no one should compromise. You should keep working to you
have a better idea you both like. It just means
so if you're not agreeing, it means so true, the
work's not done.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
So true. No, I agree with that, and this is
that we did.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
I remember going back and forth on the title and
even the theme, right, like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, I didn't want to use the theme but it
worked fine. Yeah, I mean like we're fine. That was okay,
I'm sorry, it was amazing. It was amazing. It was
the best part of the show. Average. No, I was
actually but like those kind of moments for me are
also good. Yeah. I like, I'm we're going to get

(47:00):
better at this craft or any craft if I'm not wrong, right,
And I think in the creative world, being wrong is
a lot grayer, right, It's not as black and white.
But I thought it was kind of jarring to me.
I didn't see how it would work. But then I learned.
I was like, oh, okay, that that did work. And

(47:21):
I'm like, I really didn't think that in my head.
And you were right on the title. Los Angeles would
have been a horrible time. Yeah, really from it just
an SEO standpoint, like, what's the show called Los Angeles?
Los Angeles? No Los Angeles? Oh no, l O s
t Angeles. Oh okay, what happened? Someone lost another missing right? Okay?

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Gonza the muppet? You mean that little Blue.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Guy arguments here though we're both right, we're both wrong
and by the way.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
I really, I really enjoy that there's a thought. And
I say this to everybody who has a book, editor,
publish or anything like that. I hope, but I hope
it's never. I hope I was never can be honest,
but I was never like abrasive about it or no,
you never wore okay.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
I was always, you know, respected how much you were
open to constructive criticism. And I try to be the same.
You know, I don't take it personally like that, And
I'm curious if you actually have a thought. I want
to hear what it is, right. I'm not going to
just assume I'm right and just tunnel vision my way

(48:26):
out of there. I would rather know more information about it.
And if you're going out of your way to share
that with me, I feel like I should listen to that.
And so it was always cool to be able to
actually share my thoughts and I was just giving you
my top line, knee jerk gut reactions and stuff and
not trying to overthink it to kind of be more
from like a consumer standpoint a little bit where it's like,

(48:48):
how does this look when you're not buried in it?
Because I know how it is when I get buried
in it and I need someone like Donald or you
even to to say, hey, it looks like this, Oh
it does well, let's do it differently.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Then yeah, and and so so the big key, like
the big key that I realized early on from having
books published, where you're argue with your editor over name
or a title, or just not even arguing, just having
a disagreement over the cover. And I've seen people literally
leave their deals, leave their publishing over publishers because over
these things, and they get so angry about it. And

(49:20):
but what you're not realizing is, or what people don't realize,
is we both have the same interest in mind, which
we want the best possible podcast. Yes, so a person
as your partner, you don't need to get upset. They
literally are not trying to sabotage you for messing up.
Like literally, you both want the best podcasts, so you
both have the same goal, so you can work even
a different strategy for getting there, you can work together

(49:40):
on it. So realizing these that's.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Murky sometimes though you know in this case that was
genuinely true. Some people I found just want to have
their touch on it and logo really far out of
their way and potentially bastardize other you know, better, stronger,
more viable components to something just because they want to

(50:04):
have something that was their idea. A part of this,
I don't care like that I wanted to be person.
If it's no my dear mighty or not you named
that person, I'll name one of the psychopaths. Name is Neil.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
That's funny, pay lindsay, right, we learned a lot of
exactly well, if good luck on your right home exactly.
I'm in the back seat, right exactly. I mean, it's
no one like. It's not anyone like in particular I'm
thinking of in this moment.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
It's just stuff I've ran into over time and in
different settings, from TV to you know, uh, podcasts to
you know, the business side and the extra creative side editors,
and also met people who are willing to learn, and
I know that it is a thing that you have
to get better at, even just accepting feedback. I think

(50:56):
a lot of people aren't necessarily the best. I don't
want to hear how you think it could be better.
I wish it was already the best. But if you
can accept that, you can make the best thing.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yeah, right, Yeah, I think it's so important, but it
is tough when there are people who just want their
fingers their imprints on it. And then you often realize that, Okay,
there's a need underneath that. I always think, what's the
need underneath that? And what is it really saying? So
they're like, they want significance, and so somehow you can,
somehow you can somehow sometimes please their need for significance

(51:29):
without give them the strategy.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Yeah, exactly, we can. We can probably solve that, right
we can. I want you to feel that you're a
part of this. How can we do that? Yeah? But
like if we care about the final product, we should
all stay here and objectively say, hey, these are the
better ideas we should go with this combination of stuff. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
I had this epiphany like a few months ago, which
is to put to put to value people more than
my way of doing things, okay, And what that means
is if there's somebody who has an idea and you're
sitting in the room and they throughout the idea, just like, no,
now that won't work. That's making your thing more important
than who than them trying to contribute and share an idea,
even if it's not an idea you love or even

(52:07):
in relationships like people, how many times did I tell
you just take the trash out and put in the
three ply two ply bags tieing out of the tops
of the rats, don't get in Like Jesus, you have
no respect for me. Like do you want to be
in love with this person?

Speaker 3 (52:21):
It?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Can you still be in love with someone who is
a one ply bag and doesn't tie it or whatever? What?
People make their weight get so specific about their way
of doing things that they scare off the people they
work with. They scare off the people who love them
and care about them. Yeah, and to not make your
way of doing things more important than people.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
So if someone in the room, like a creative discussion,
says some idea and you're inside your head, you're like,
that's a terrible idea that you're thinking that, what do
you What do you say to them? If they're asking
what your thoughts are in that moment?

Speaker 2 (52:50):
I think I think I would I bet to them
it's a good idea. So I want to understand how
it may be good to them.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Do you want them to explain the idea to you?

Speaker 2 (52:56):
I'm just saying, yeah, tell me how what your thought
or what your vision is for or if it's just short,
I'll just say, like I'll write that down. Now that's
the list of stuff to consider.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Then when they leave you, if that shit sucked.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
But here's what I find. I definitely and I wonder
if you've done this too. I definitely kneed jerk said
no to something that turned out to be the right
idea later.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Oh absolutely, yeah. That's why I said, like with my
gut reaction is that I've also been incorrect and I
know that, and that's why I'll have a feeling and
I'll i will intentionally check myself, look in the mirror
and try to say, hey, hey, hey, slow down. Yeah,
let's let's see like that's that's that's more information, but

(53:37):
like let's and if it's right, it's like, okay, I
remember that. If if I did a pivot and I
was like, oh I remember that too, that hey that
one time you fell out of that, but you quickly
learned because you, you know, try to dive deeper into
it that this was not correct. Actually, I've talked to
you about some of these things on a deeper level before,

(53:57):
not for an extended period of time, per se but
I've always learned from you and been curious how you
navigate the world and especially being a journalist and how
you deal with all the nuance of this stuff. And yeah,
I think I learned even more that there's, you know,

(54:18):
some similarities that I maybe he just could have thought
we're there, but now I know we're there. I was
joking with them last night. I was like, Tomorrow's and
be interviewer, interviews interviewer, and I'm like, I already know
he's going to come in here in school. My ass
did school. I'm gonna throw I'm gonna throw a little

(54:39):
monkey wrench over there. And he's like, what's that look
over there? And I'm like, anyways, exactly exactly, Like playfully,
it was fun just to like, yeah, I'm like, you
could be the guy who could get that interview out
of me, so every one day you will. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I would do it. I'd like the experience. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
I was even thinking of suggesting, oh, we should flip
it around for your show.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
I love it. Yeah. Fun.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
Yeah, because I I'm curious about, like I said earlier,
the things that drive you, and I'll probably like really
good deeper to help people to get.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Him out honestly. Yeah, And I just tell you the
truth and try to not and.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
It's not really to get you out get him out.
It's actually this sounds like might come off wrong, but
I'll just say what I was thinking, which is almost
through the discussion, it can help you understand it better. Yeah, exactly,
like the way when we were talking and I realized, oh,
this is why I have so much empathy for people
feeling misunderstood growing up, and so I already.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
I'm open to having new realizations about why I do
what I do. Yeah, it's all the stuff in between.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Yeah, you know, awesome, man, did you get deep?

Speaker 1 (55:35):
We're good? That was awesome yet, dude, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
Talking to Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV and
iHeart podcast created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,
executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive
producer is Mike Rudy. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music by Makeup

(55:59):
in Vanities. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington, Sean Nerney,
Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Cohedo. Production support by
Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young, Mixing and mastering
by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover art was
created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website Talking to

(56:20):
Death podcast dot com.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.
This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you
want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe
to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus
dot com