All Episodes

February 6, 2024 47 mins

My buddy Cat and I go way back to childhood, hustling side-by-side trying to make our big dreams come true on the streets of Queens. I was building a game-changing clothing empire from scratch, while Cat tirelessly trained to become a champion prizefighter.

But our fortunes forked down radically divergent paths one fateful day when Cat got thrown in prison for a bone-chilling stretch...for a horrifying crime he never actually committed.

With Cat caged behind bars, my clothing business exploded into a worldwide phenomenon. But while I jet-setted to glitzy red carpets around the globe, my man was eating slop, dodging shanks, and scraping to survive each day in a soul-crushing cell.

After nearly a decade incarcerated, Cat finally emerged from prison into a strange new world, with a warehouse of mind-blowing stories no one's heard publicly before now. From bowls of maggoty prison gruel and riots in the yard, to cozying up with criminals and cons, Cat's seen it all.

You'll NEVER guess the twisted characters he became cellmates with!

Luckily Cat managed to stay positive and kept his mad street smarts locked down tight. Because between corrupt guards, ruthless gang wars, and batting back the excruciating pain of his squashed dream, my man stared down the precipice of losing his grip on reality more times than he can count.

But after all Cat's been through, he still keeps it ultra-real. Hear his unbelievable battles first-hand when Cat and I take it back on my podcast. From golden boxing gloves to shivs and shanks, you WON'T BELIEVE the twists and turns his journey took!

So tune in for PART 1 of my raw, no-holds-barred conversation with Cat. His mind-blowing saga is one HELLUVA rollercoaster ride!

 

Host: Daymond John

Producers: Beau Dozier & Shanelle Collins; Ted Kingsbery, Chauncey Bell, & Taryn Loftus

For more info on how to take your life and business to the next level, check out DaymondJohn.com 

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What if I told you there was more to the
story behind game changing events. Get ready for my new podcast,
That Moment with Damon John will jump into the personal
stories of some of the most influential people on the planet,
from business mobiles and celebrities to athletes and artists. Today

(00:21):
is a very special guest that most people don't know
and very near and dear to me. So you know,
I've been in the public light for on Shark Tank
fifteen sixteen, gonna be sixteen years in a minute. Prior
to that, I had basically around I don't know, I
think a fifteen year run for probably about ten year
run in the public right, so twenty five years, and

(00:42):
I'm in a lot of interviews, a lot of things,
and I say things that sometimes I don't recall accurately,
very honest on my football partners were like, no, I
was here then, and that was Key that was called
and called it? Well that was Jay or that wasn't me?
Well who was that? I'm not sure who that was?
But you know, you kind of get out of there.
You know, you've been telling your story for so many years,

(01:03):
and every one of us has ten stories, ten books.
Depends on the angle that we're talking about it, you
tell your story, you kind of get into this repetition
of selling it in certain ways. But sometimes I have
to fact check. And when I have to fact check,
I call a couple of individuals, especially ones who I
want to go deep, like when I was ten or
twelve whatever, and I call this man his name is

(01:25):
we call him Cat right as you see, he speaks
a lot and the man a few words, and I
call him because he remembers a very certain time of
my life, probably about when I was about twenty years
and younger, between ten and twenty. I call you for
but to you know, recap when out of ten and twenty.

(01:45):
And the reason he has these memories of those particular
time is because an event happened in his life where
he was Cat was incarcerated. When we were how.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Old I was twenty four years sweet three.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Twenty three. I remember I stood on the corner selling
Foobo at the first time in nineteen eighty nine, which
could have made me twenty y. That was the first
time I was selling it brand first time. Now I
failed three times eighty nineteen ninety two, so you were
twenty three. That was around what year was it that
you went away ninety two. So let me tell you

(02:21):
the story about Kat. If you ever looked at the
movie Belly, who played your brother.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
I'm not sure it's exactly him, but I know Alfred.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Well Albert was Dmax and your brother was the the
It was about who the guy was anyway, But basically,
we have a friend who I always talk about ended
up the movie. Hype Williams created the movie Belly. DMX
played the character. And while many of our friends in
the neighborhood, they were going out and doing what they

(02:55):
felt they needed to do at the time, Cat and
nine we'd stand on the corner, was standing in the
corner and we were sitting something called the flow can.
It was. It was a big garbage can, and we'd
talk about our hopes and dreams and aspirations. Cat was
going to Golden Gloves. You were fighting at the time. Yeah, yeah,
you were fighting at the time. And you know I
still in that corner. Remember I was twenty right around

(03:17):
twenty three. I remember telling me the soil the other day,
when was the last two times you saw me? And
then when you came home. And by the way, he
went to jail for a crime. He didn't commit. You
were when they picked you up, you were supposed to
do how much time in jail? You will? You were?
You will put in for how much time?

Speaker 2 (03:35):
For fourteen years?

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Fourteen years?

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:40):
How many years did you serve?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Eight? Eight eight?

Speaker 1 (03:43):
They go, oh my bad, you can go home. That
wasn't that easy. No, we can get into that later.
This is probably gonna be a three part series. You
told me the other day because when he's telling me
this story, I'm like this, I'm not at dinner. And
then what happened and he's talking about me last two
times you saw me prior to you coming home, and

(04:07):
then how when you saw me coming home? What had
happened when you saw when you came out?

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Okay, this is what happened. Is you was driving the van,
driving a dollar van.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Driving the van in Queens where you go down the
route you pick up people for a dollar, they'd hop on,
hop off, people go down the bus routes for them, right,
so hopefully you get a good run. That's maybe an
hour and a half drive straight down thirty forty people
hop off the van and hopefully you get enough to
do about two hundred and fifty dollars that day, you
pay about seventy five in gas, another probably thirty forty

(04:41):
maintenance by the time you allocate in insurance everything else ahead.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, and when I seen you, well, what was going
on was that the cops are just giving out a
lot of tickets. They've got a lot of tickets, expensive
tickets and letting me.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
By the way, these tickets were three thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Why if you really think about where we were violating
an intellectual property. The bus route is owned by the city.
The city is created and paid a lot of money
to operate those buses. We're going up against the bus
route picking up these people, so we're actually stealing from
the city and they have the ability to enforce it
by the Taxi and Limousine Commission in New York City.

(05:20):
They were giving us every time they would stop us
if they caught us picking up pastors in their route,
which is selling an intellectual property three thousand dollars ticket.
So I can work for approximately two weeks and get
one ticket and it's gone.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
And this is what happened. Well, you had told me
that the tickets was getting so expensive because you had
got caught like for nine hundred dollars a week before
and seven hundred that week, and it was getting so
expensive that you said that I'm probably gonna end up
back at Red Luster waiting tables again, right, more than
like you're gonna end up having to go back right

(05:56):
And then could be probably about two weeks later, I
was walk into the train station and the Q three
was coming.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Up public on public city bus called the Q three.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Q three going in the opposite direction, and going opposite direction,
you going to Green Acres.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
I was going out, going to Green Ache. I was
going to the America to the fivecast five another bus
which which took me an average of an hour and
a half to get to Red Lobster and ball Long Island.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
And when I seen you, when I seen you, you
had a college shirt with a tie that was pulled
down and somebody and I look and I seen the
times like, oh shit, you went back, and he was like,
and after the last time I seen you.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
So I had my uniform on the bus, had a
uniform on a public bus and it stopped there and
I saw you and that's the last time.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Like I said, you you going back, And he was like,
after the last time I seen Now the cops.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
People are like, what do you mean he went to
jail with something he didn't do. So so what had
happened was there was a robbery of people and there
was a home invasion in the neighborhood very close to us,
a white neighborhood. Yeah, and you know when in our neighborhood,
when there's an as Dave Chappelle would say, there was
an a p B for somebody who was African American,

(07:17):
you know, between the height of four foot five and
six foot nine, uh male, that was a p pretty much.
And uh Cat fit that subscription. You know, he just
randomly fit that uh you know that case. So they
come and they pick you up over a street or not.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
But what happened is they one day, I want to
take a ride.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
No way, Knowleon Cat a guy in the neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah, well, anyway, this fat guy from the neighborhood, right,
he asked me, did I want to take a ride
with him? But you said, talk to you, so you
do know I'm telling you about So I asked me
to take a ride in the car with him, right.
So I was like, hey, okay, and I got in

(08:09):
the car with him, and the cops came behind us,
but you know that's normally you know, the and they
pulled the sober and after they pulled the next you know,
it was about twelve cars all around us and all so, oh,
get it, I'll get I'll get there. And they arrested
us to considered precinct. But then say, about an hour later,

(08:32):
they let him go.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Let him, they let him.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Go, and uh, oh, your friend's gonna stay because he
messed a description of somebody who did a robbery, right,
And they said I was gonna have to stand through
a lineup. But what they did was they took me
down to Queen's Courthouse and they booked me at in
to be registered as uh to be arraigned on robbery charge.

(08:56):
I haven't been yet to uh be picked out of
the line up. So I sat there. I spent the night,
and then next day they came back and then took
me through the line up, like almost twenty four hours later,
where they took pictures of me and gave it to
the people and got the people to pick me.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Out later on. That would be that would be that
would be picked up by And want to make sure
we give the acknowledgment to the innocent program who picked
who picked up the case?

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Oh what happened is uh? I don't think there was
no title too. But the law professor from Brooklyn Law School,
or William Hellestain, who who deals in audition different controversial
or cases like that, and he was involved in something
like that, a name similar to that, and I wrote
a whole bunch of different places. I wrote him, and

(09:46):
he got my letter and he said it sounded interesting.
He wanted to look you wanted to look into it.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
And so he fought for you. Only want to make
sure that by the time we're finish it, that we
do talk more about the people that fight brothers than
the people who have different issues going on in life
that they want to they want to bring people down.
I don't think we're going to get anything. There's no
advantage of talking about those people, uh huh, And don't
give them the satisfaction. Right, So you get you go,

(10:13):
you go to jail. We're going to get back to
that at another period of time. Supposed to serve fourteen years,
they let you out after eight, going, okay, it's been
proven that you were not the person. There's a lot
of other things to go through that Now, the last
time you saw me, I was on a bus like this, Yeah,
it locks a uniform on.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
What happens after that when you come now? Now, what
but you saw me on TV? Or what did you see?
Because TV wasn't we were on TV in a sense
of maybe you'll see me in a rap video. But
I'm not sure what you had exposure to. Where where
did you serve your time at?

Speaker 2 (10:44):
I never even asked you a certain my time And
I started off in the Almira. I stayed there for
just a couple.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Of Molmyra, New York. All New York, that's right, it's
a local crime.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
And then I went to Auburn. And when I went
to Auburn in ninety three, I mean I stayed dead
till ninety five. I say that. So I did, like
I think, like three almost three?

Speaker 3 (11:06):
How many does a cell in jail as wide as
my arms I could touch both of the walls like
this and then probably eight feet long and then as
wide as my arms I could touch both.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Sides and not me not knowing much about the level
of security and what how they give you time? How
much time do you have a day?

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (11:27):
How much time do you have a date, just hum
me to whatever, to go out of that cell?

Speaker 2 (11:32):
How long? How many?

Speaker 1 (11:33):
How many hours are you in that cellar? Day?

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well you come out of you come out of the
cell at seven thirty the morning. You have to go
to breakfast. Then after breakfast you've got to go to
program and then that and program is from uh probably
about eight forty until like eleven forty and then they
come back do account and then they seem you to try,
I mean to child, see to lunch, which lunch, and

(11:58):
then I go back to the afternoon and after the
program to come back probably around three thirty they lock.
You're back in yourself. You stay in the cell until
six five thirty six to eat dinner. Child, and then
they split the jail in half. One night they get wrecked.

(12:19):
Decided jail get wrecked. The other night decided jail get wrecked.
So if not you would eat dinner, then you in
for the night. Right there. So you're being there for
eight years, right about six yeah, six thirty to seven
thirty something.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
You didn't do. You're in the NFL as wide as
your arms. Yeah, okay, all right, but you see you
have access to so all that I was asking because
you have access to television magazine because I didn't hear
from you. Okay, now, now I didn't hear from you,
and I had asked you one time. I think I said,
why didn't I hear from you? Or are you like, well,
why are you calling me? You knew as I was
after I didn't say that. Now you just said that,

(12:53):
But I believe that you said something like you didn't
want to mentally tell me why you didn't communicate as
much when you were away.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Because it was like this right here, Uh, I would
what I was trying to do and try to achieve
I was chasing for years. I see Todd's success and
I wanted.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
That Todd's success as LL cool J. I grew up
with LL cool J, yeah, seeing him from Afar, right.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
So when I see him with and I ain't talking
about the money, I mean like all the girls just
coming around the neighborhood looking forming on. I wanted that
right there, right, So you know, I tried going to
the studio and all that different stuff like that didn't.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Work everyone of us.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, and then Mike Taxi showed that could be done
through boxes. So that's when I poured, you know, st
pouring myself, and we used to always talk about, you know,
making it.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Remember when we used to see Mike Tyson leave his
car over at a really big drug dealer's house, Shorty Black,
and we used to like, wow, Mike Tyson, the heavyweight
champion of the undisputed the most baddest man on the
planet is parking his car down the block. And we
would see llll cool j or on DMC whatever, Shorty
Black Supreme Team, people who are currently regularly you know

(14:05):
they own now, right, And then Mike Tyson. I think
we had this exposure when there wasn't really social media.
It wasn't no social media. Yeah, that exposure to a
lot of a lot of a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
And what happened is my driver that I had to
get that. And then now that I was trying to
make everybody around us was all about selling, cracking drugs
and all that stuff like that. And now I made
it my business to stay away from all that stuff
like that. So I remember when I first left, I'm
going out of the picture, and I'm just like crushing

(14:38):
and things just ain't making sense to me in my head,
and all that stuff like that. And I remember one
time it's when three way calling was new, and at
this time I might have been I might have been
going like two years two years by then, or it
might have been year and a half. And I called
my sister and I was going, I called you, called

(14:58):
you with the nother Now it might have been like
four or five four seven three two, I know, something
like something like that. Right boom, I call and I
called you and we spoke and he was like, oh
you was like, uh, who's this? And I told you,
oh shit, y'all been going through the block and nobody

(15:20):
won't tell me nothing, and and and and and and
then you know, we're talking back and forth and I'm like, yo,
so what's going on with the clothes up in about
some and so on? What type of car you're driving
right now? You was like, yo, really to tell the truth,
I'm driving nineteen eighty nine hundred. That smashing in the
back of the trunk is gone. I was like, where
all is it? You was telling me, well, the money

(15:40):
got to go back into the company, and I'm going
right now, you said, buzz I am here? I think so.
He was like, but you was like, but guess what, yo?
I said, Hey, but how the girl's treating you. You
was like, he was like, Yo, the girl's treat me
just like an.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
I just like.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Girls treat me just like an. I was like, they're
coming up to you, because that's what all I wanted
was for them. Yeah. It success and you need no money,
just need the girls to be chasing you and ship. Right.
So I was like, yeah, and you tell me that.
And then I remember you was telling you told me this, right.
He was like, Oh, I'm gonna tell you this right here.
He was like, yeah, sure, sure exactly. So you said

(16:37):
you said you said I don't want to tell you this, right.
He was like, Yo, everything that happened, it is what
it is, right. We can't change nothing about that. And
now he said, but yo, I'm never gonna forget what
you did for me. So whenever you get out and
make sure that you come and see me. And we
finished up the phone call and I went up stir.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
What did what did you do for me? What did
I say you did for me? Do you remember what
you did for me? I tell the story, okay, Dad,
I tell because I don't want to know that.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
You got it. And we I mean, I went up
I went upstairs that night. I laid down. I didn't
go to see if I was on the bed. I'm
just like, like it had worked. You know, you're playing
at work, You're getting attention like Todd. It was like,
well exciting to me. But I said, you know, after

(17:30):
that night, I'm happy, you know that stuff like that.
But I was like, I can't call him no more.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
You can't call me no one.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Why the reason why? Because my thinking was just spirally,
damn damn down. I'm getting lower and pressures every day.
Uh the depression, like come on strong, Sean, and yours
was going up. And I can't understand why I was there.
I couldn't understand why I was there, right, and.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Can't understand why you were thereware and yeah, while gett
I couldn't understand why I was in prison and then
then now only that.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Another thing too is like all the real criminals around
where you got one of threes and two to four
and like how did I get old this time?

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Like a lot of well, people don't realize that in
our communities, the railroad tracks usually separate the community. You'll
see that and everything from South Africa from the wealthy
to the shanty towns right across because in every community,
even the wealthy community, there have to be people that
do the common work, and they generally have been bordered communities.
Even where I live, it's it's funny, but it's not.

(18:36):
You know, they don't have to necessarily black or white.
But where I live, up in the Hudson Valley, the
one side was the Carnegie, the Melons, the Rockefellers and
all these other people. Right, and that's where the train
goes down. And they would say, if you see somebody
standing on the tracks, pull over, it's Rockefella, it's Carnegie.
But the the across the river separated, those are the

(18:58):
people that will come to work the mansions, the Vanderbilts
literally the Vanderbilt mansion, and across the track. They would
call those people the village people. Right, And it's odd
that the Vanderbilts and Rockabellas they were tired of seeing
those houses look like that, so they paid to put
big churches up there so that when they looked over

(19:19):
the Hudson River they would see and they would see
something nice. That's crazy enough to buy a whole another
side of a mountain. Just so you don't like the
way those the people, you know, you.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Had to know.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
And in our neighborhood, I remember a cop saying one time,
and I'm gonna have to just use the you know profanity,
you know, in two different ways. I remember I saw
a copy was he was beating up or manhandling a
white male and guy said, why you treat me like
a nigga? Cop said, if he was a nigga, you
did that, you'd be dead. And they always said, I

(19:53):
remember when they would say this, you cross these tracks,
meaning if you go past where the railroad goes, if
you go over that side, whatever we catch you doing,
it's gonna be three times the amount of time you
will be in prison. Then if you do it on
this side of the track. So now all of a
sudden you get fourteen years or something that even if

(20:16):
you did it, you would have three right.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
If I did it, I could have just copped down
to two years.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Oh you think I said I'm guilty, thank you, you
know whatever it is. But you went to trial because
you didn't do it. Yeah, okay, now you're in there
so you can't mentally get out of why am I rightfully?
So you know, someone get accused of just being the
wrong type of person. You know, listen to the wrong
type of music. They can't mentally get out of that, right,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
I mean it was it was definitely a struggle because
first of all, it's like what I come down to
find out is that people that end up in jail, right,
It's it's like they was like in the back of
their mind, they know that they're gonna eventually do that
because the stuff that that they're doing, So it's kind

(21:08):
of like the kind of kind of prep they prepping.
They're prepping theirself for jail, right.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
They're prepping themselves prepping because they.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Know you're selling drugs, you've run from the costume, you can,
you get money for something, and everybody's going to You're
gonna eventually go and they're prepping themselves to jail. So
it's so when they get there, it's more of adjustability.
But me a guy, in my mind, I'm doing everything
to make sure I never go there at all.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Well, that was the why you and I were on
the corner when they were going out, because you know,
just thinking people do to get out of here the
right way.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
When so when I get to the point where I'm there,
like like it like a lot of stuff don't don't
make sense to me. But then at the same time
they tell me that I have the right for a pill, right,
and they don't tell you how to do the pill.
And then there's people in there trying to uh, I'm
used word ex store, but I'm just saying so like
trying to force out you. They're trying to extort you

(22:15):
for their so called knowledge because they've been in a library.
They want them ja house lawyers or something like that.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
You the other.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Inmate, They oh, I know how to do a four forty,
and I know how to do this and that da
and you and the worst mental state in your life.
But you gotta be doe to the the sharpest thing
in life to learn the low and be able to
do all that stuff like that. And it was just
like a whole bunch of pressure, whole whole whole bunch

(22:45):
of pressure on top of you know, ship I never
did good in school anyway, and breakfast, how am I
gonna understand?

Speaker 1 (22:56):
How?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (22:57):
How much?

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Somebody sorry?

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah? So it was it was, it was, it was
nerve racked, it was it was you know, and as
time went on, Uh, in Poughkeepsie, New York, it was
it was the very first black serial killer. His name
is Nick Daniel White, right, And I didn't notice at
the time, but I met him, uh, and he was

(23:25):
the only one in jail talking with any sense.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Oh the serial killer?

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, yeah, what is his name is Nick Danyl White?
That time went on, come not find out he was
in jail because he supposed to had raped and killed
about five girls up there in Poughkeepsie, New York. Right,
But he was the only one in jail that was
talking with some sense. Everybody else is on with this
little crew or they waiting, we'll get the next weed

(23:51):
into jail. Who get the next dope in the jail.
That's that's what they was like. It's like they was
on the streets and that's all they cared about. This
guy start talking to me about the law and and
and he was the only one that making said, yo,
you need to be drop a low library slipping all
and stuff like that. So he started talking to me
about how to file as being an indigent person, to

(24:15):
be able to get a lawyer, being your lawyer from
the state, and how to go about asking him for
the lawyer and the appeal. So I started getting to
know him and I'm getting on him and he's shown
me somef about the law library. But then people around me. Yo,

(24:35):
they told somebody I knew, Yo, the man can't be
talking to no tree jumpers. I didn't know what they're
talking about. A man can't be fucked with no tree jumper.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
What's the street jumper?

Speaker 2 (24:44):
Tree jumper is a rapist? Yeah right, okay, Yo, your
man can't be.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Right because of the system. I have been told that
pedophilers and rapists are the lowest of the low. I mean,
they're the lowest the load to me a period.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, that's what they say, right, And I'm here, I'm
stressed out. Anybody that's supposedly no law is trying to
rob me, you know, for the uh, for some money.
But this this guy right here is teaching me a
law and show me a law, and they have a
problem with it. I said, okay, well, I mean, but

(25:24):
this is like I said, and he stressed. I was
just saying to myself, well, me talking to this guy
and them having a problem with it, it's the only
way in me getting back out to the street. Well,
if somebody do have a problem with me, uh, they
that's gonna be like the first time that I really

(25:47):
uh uh. They've been calling me a bad guy all
this time. Wish I wasn't. But that's when they're gonna see.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
Well you already golden globe Boxer wasn't. It wasn't short
of that. But the conflict I think you had, you know,
dealing with a bunch of elements, and that you got
to make the right decision out of the worst possible
situation that most people whatever, will never face, right and
you have to make critical decisions in a place where

(26:16):
his life or death over some of the decisions you're making.
When you say, and I don't, I want to make
it very clear for people when you say, if somebody
and they had a problem with it, it ain't you
and Starbuck with someone got a problem with you taking
the wrong order. A problem means what a problem mean
in jail.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
A problem mean, for instance, they say, if somebody is
a rapist, they might be out to kill him or
something like that, So so.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
Me and that you could be hanging out with this
guy because a problem in jail is you die right.
Because I don't think that the people in jail are
walking up to you with casual problems. There's so now
you now you're risking I know you very well. I
don't I can see you not having any joy or

(27:06):
having a disgust of having to not having to work
with the person. But you are stuck in the situation
where you're not co signing on what this person is
horrificly this person has done. But what you're saying is
that there was some knowledge and information that did not
did not pertain to what they do. And you know,
we're in a country today where you're either black or white.
This one person is right about everything and that other

(27:27):
person wrong with everything. No, you know, we have parents
and family who sometimes are most brilliant people ever, but
they've done some dumb things and you can't couple all
of it. But to extract the information you needed, you
you found a way to work with the person. But
you knew that it was gonna You're gonna potentially risk
your life, yeah yeah, and or risk somebody else's life
and then actually be in jail for somebody you did do,

(27:48):
which is killed somebody or hurt somebody of Maine somebody.
These are the decisions. So at that moment, you had
to make a decision. What was the decision and.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
The decision was the decision was this right here.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
I was like, and we're going with us speed up
in the midau.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
If they think that I'm not gonna take the shot
at my one shot and getting out of it, I
just just just kept playing through my mind, like what
I'm gonna do is when everybody, anybody do do anything
what I was playing on doing. I was just gonna
take the I was fighting. I'm gonna take the person.
I'm gonna catch the side of the neck. I was

(28:22):
gonna bite it. And I was just gonna eat this
ship right in front.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
That's gonna do so.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
I mean, so that's what it was. If there was
a problem. But it was like, I'm like, that was
my only hope. This guy would show me how to
do appeal.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
So soon else And you don't want to speak to me,
you don't want it's just me? Or is everybody now?

Speaker 2 (28:47):
I didn't. I didn't. I didn't a lot. Only when
I spoke I speak with my mother.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
And is it almost like how when I got so
focused on the brand or other people got focused on work.
Even if you're in jail and even a little bit
of a moment, a glumps you could talk to somebody.
You're so focused on what you want to do. You
don't want any distraction.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Is it talking about me?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
That's why yourself you don't want any distractions.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
No, no, no, no no no. This ship I was, I
wasn't focused. It's like I was. I was like like
losing my mind. But what I'm saying is this right
here is like this right here is all My whole
life was dedicated to making it in boxing. And you like,

(29:32):
uh like fintans hit it. You come around in your van. Yo,
I got like three more laughs ago I'm going around
the block. I did two year, Ready to come back.
I come sit in the van. I mean you just
talking about things be just.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Being better, and I remember you going. I got three
more times, three more times around the block that you
were training golden gloves, golden gloves. And then I remember
you would get out, you you would come in the
van and sit there. I would need to go to
work or coming from work something, yeah, and we were
just sit there talking about what are we going to
do in life to get to not do what everything
else is doing to get there.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
And and and just whatever I'm going on time even
I remember before uh I knew things soned to get
a little better. I remember you did that boat ride
and you had I think like ron G was like
the DJ.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
And together side I try to promote the boat rider
yeah yeah, and then the local DJ yeah, and then
you you circle line.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
You brought me in on air security shall only like
one hundred and fifty five poundship. But things were starting
to change for us, like we're trying to try to
try so Uh, my whole focus was just to be
a success. And then when you know the stuff was

(30:51):
coming together, you I only could ask myself and ask God,
asked the universe or whatever. It's like like why did
this have to happen to me? M right? And then

(31:22):
uh it was like this right, this is what. Uh.
Another way I look at things is there was a
triangle right on my porch. Uh. I got to be
good friends with you. I got to be good friends
of Hype Williams and then that was me and Todd

(31:43):
was yeah cool. L J was like the on top
of the trying. Yeah that we like we we we
know we could get it because he said I'm successful.
We we chased we chased it damn right. So now
I'm totally taking out of a picture and the other
two pieces of the triangles just gain his success skin.

(32:04):
Why the fun did this have to happen? Like why?
And and and and then and Hype's names at the
bomb of every video, and so I'm like, I'm like,
so I was like, uh, like like like like did

(32:26):
I do something wrong to somebody? Did I like the
black cat across in front of me something like that?
And Hype did like a my Teeth video, Hpe, Hype
did the Jogicy video. So he was getting with the
mainstream people and it's going. Then all of a sudden,
y'all came out with the uh with the limousine thing

(32:46):
but with cool j uh with with the fullwood stuff,
and I'm like, look at this ship and what the
fuck is this guy doing? And I'm talking about Jake.
He wasn't somebody home with you on the record? What
is he doing? The picture? Yeah, like, holy ship?

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Well you were going I had the way that I
hang out with.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
But I'm saying, I'm saying niggas are substitutes right there
with the right and and I and and and and
it was like a curse is on me. And I
couldn't understand and but and and and and and I

(33:32):
just couldn't take it because it was like but it
did have nothing to do with anybody else had to
do it, like like why like this curse came on me?
And and every time I, you know, get a chance
to see the TV, which was all the time I'm
seeing right, Williams shot this bigger like oly ship. And
then uh I was trying to ignore you're like your brose.

(33:58):
I just couldn't take it there and uh I go
to the library and uh I read the Vibe magazine,
the big magazine, and I'm we're uh uh je morn
He got an an NBA size basketball court in his house.

(34:19):
And David said, Yo, you know, I'll be riding home
sometimes I pull up in front of this big house
and I look at the jury on my hand. I
look at the house and I gotta like pinch myself
to see if this is really me.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
That's what that's what you saw me saying the article.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
You said that in the article. But to know the
guy that was sitting across with me sharing his dreams
with me. And then not only that, when when when
uh uh I had to fight out in Chicago, when
you flew out there to meet me out there. It's
like it's like I was trying hard to make it

(34:58):
make a difference. But everything that I had in my
mind wishing, I'm seeing this having me.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
I went out to fight. I said to all my
money to go out there to support you.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, and so it's like what I was dreaming about myself.
I'm it's like it's like I'm saying, I know what
it worked for me because I see it working for them. Right.
And then uh, like I said, even with me trying
to ignore it, it got to a point where couldn't
agnore because incident in magazines. Then one day I was

(35:28):
watching BT Oh we got some celebrity guests. We got
some celebrity guests. It was and damn it, job woman,
what ship like ship? I was like my head was
just like my hay was just beating my head because

(35:51):
I'm like, I didn't do nothing to nobody, didn't treat.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Everybody a good period of time. With your brothers, we
are not laughing at your having with you mano.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
It was like they just kept getting bigger and bigger
and bigger. But why oh this is going on? My
appeal got denied denied something else I was trying to
not so it's like nothing was working.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
And so when is that moment that you said, I'm
still gonna appeal again because is there is there a
is there an exhaust statue exhaustion? Yeah, yeah, you can't
make me legally, can you do? They stop you after
and say, yeah, you tried everything, because I would assume
that if that wasn't the case, you could just appeal
all day.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Now you you get a chance to go to the
Court of Appeal, and then after you get turned down,
you got to ask from the judges that's writing their
opinions on your case if you could have the permission
to appeal their decision. Well, the Pellet Division you go
through first, and you got to ask them if you
could have permission the appeal there decision in the court.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
People to understand because I'm learning this too, and this
is why write I do that that moment that as
as you're seeing these these images come across right of
hype and I blowing up and ll is still doing
his thing right, and you're getting strikes and there strikes
literally like you're out yeah yeah, you know, or another

(37:26):
strike and not you're out first the first strike. This
is not a well I'm gonna go back again. You're
in there for something you didn't do, and you're getting
strikeouts again. It's almost like it's almost like saying, no,
you did it. As far as with concern, you did it,
and I don't care what the course of accidents. You're
staying here. Yeah, yeah, what happened now?

Speaker 2 (37:44):
And but let's yeah, so when you get to God denied,
they did not give me permission to go on to
the next course. So I'm here to do this time
and I'm I'm fucked up, and uh. Years went by.
But what happened that changed stuff up a little bit

(38:06):
was I had had a fight at holy Cross High School.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
It's queens a fight or a boxing.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
A boxing match. I had a boxing match and my
old trainer, Bob Jackson, you know, he still was in
the Golden Gloves. He took some fighters, I think the
year of nineteen eighty four ninety four, he took some
fighters there, and a guy named Bill Farrells that ran
the daily news reporter for the Gloves on site. He's

(38:35):
seen me ask him about the light heavyweight that he
had that had got fighted a night, you know, a
couple of years ago, and he told him, oh, you know,
this is what happened. Da da da Daight, Oh that
sounds bad. But what we do is we have a
group of lawyers that do per se pro bono work
every year. Maybe I could get one of them to

(38:56):
look into the case. And that was the start of
a new motion being put in. But they that ended
up dragging on for years and nothing came out of it.
They do that also too.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
And then a reporter, a random reporter that saw you
be the the superstar that I knew you all of
them and be that that we were focusing on. Later on,
that reporter asked randomly about you and said, you know what,
that sucks. What happened. They believed that you did not
do anything because whoever your coach was or told them that,

(39:36):
and they were willing to co sign it and bring
it to another body of people who were fighting for
the innocence of people who are incarcerator.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah. Yeah, And that went along till they end up
throwing that out too. And now but now we're getting.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
They threw it out against you. This is your second right.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, So I'm I'm done and and just answer your
ques she was getting bigger and bigger. At the time,
I'm like, oh my fucking guys, you're bleeding ship right here, right,
because like I said, that's all I wanted was just
to be successful, right, And the strangest thing happened. Oh

(40:19):
now I got broke down to minimum. So I'm in
a dome and you know, different gods be talking.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
You're broildn't the minimum security. You're no longer in that snux.
I'm not in the side of MAXA. You're in the
dorm where a bunch of what.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
I think like about sixty sixty.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Four sixty four beds. Yeah, okay, guys in minimum security. Guy,
they deemed harmless or on the way out whatever, right,
they stole a candy bar.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Oh well, really you got to have like six years.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
And then okay, god right and not getting any trouble
and be peaceful a piece of person.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
So what happened is, you know, I hear people talking
day and somebody over here, I hear him telling the
stories about Bingleton, New York, right, and I hate him.
And it passed. But when you go to child, you
line up and then you sit at you sit at
the table. Whoever out, Yeah, you go to mill so

(41:13):
you sit at the table with whoever you're online were
and just so happened when the guys are talking about Bingleton.
I sat next to him and uh so I heard
him talking. Said, oh, yeah, you're from Bingleton. I know
somebody from Bingleton. And what end up happening is? I said, Yo,
do you know you know Flow, big light skin Float.
You're talking about Ronnie Lee? Yeah, I know him. Oh

(41:35):
let me tell you something. All these niggas that I
caught up with from me, that nigga held me down
when he went to Jay said Flow helped his family
out with something Flow. Yeah, Floa Flow Performers was up
there Bingleton. So it's so calt getting money up there
in Bingleton. But Floe helped his family out when he

(41:55):
was in jail. So what ends up happening is the guy,
uh you know, he's talking to me because my article
had came out of the paper, so they knew about
my case.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Right, you mean the media starts to pick up the case.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, when because that lawyer, the lawyer that came from
the Daily News, he got it put in the newspaper,
which brought it kind of back to life again, right,
And Uh. So people in the jail knew about my case.
So he said, yeo, what's going on with that? And
I started telling them, you know, they do it out
and so now he said, yo. He started telling me
that you could write lawyers and uh, different law schools

(42:34):
and different like that, and he said sometimes what they
do is they give the case to the students. It's
a project they work on. So you should try that.
So I started, but I didn't start doing it. What
happened is he went to lawyer but library and he
got a whole bunch of addresses from me and he
gave it to me, you'll write these people, and I
put it on a on a dess and he would

(42:55):
go to a right duty is doing come by against Yo,
I see you. Then you didn't mad at hef hey,
I'm gonna do it because by this time my mind
had gave up. Bro. I didn't even want to hear.
You know, I was done because it was too hard.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
You're in there because you didn't need that two strikes.
Yeah you know, now a list of people that and
you're like, okay, now write a bunch of kids.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah. Now, I was like I was just didn't want
to hear know again, right, it's just getting to be
too much getting my hopes up and there oh maybe
next timing, maybe next time, and then it's just shot down. Right,
So what happened is uh, he come by, he say something, man,
what you're doing? What you're doing? So I finally just
to shut him up, took the letters and I put

(43:39):
them in the mailbox and forgot all about it because
I really didn't want to get in the denial war game.
And what ends up happening is uh, a letter came
back from the Brooklyn Law School and the guy said
that the professor said that he he seen my he
read my story, know that he's interested in hearing more.
And I was psych Holy shit. It was the first

(44:03):
time somebody was showing real, real interest in my case
and wasn't asking for a dime, So that means he
really more the more of the work work on it, right,
And uh, not only that, he sent me his number
to call collect right, and I called him, explained him
about my case, and he told me he needed my

(44:25):
minutes before he could tell me anything and all that.
So I started working on my family to get to
get the minister him. And one thing that ended up
happening is uh my uh uh trainer, the boxing trainer.
He worked in sing sing for thirty six years, right,
so he got all your things as a sergeant all that.
So what ends up happening is he said, you know what,

(44:47):
send the papers to me and I take them over there.
Because the Brooklyn Law schools nearglas and Gym that's down
on Front Street. They all downtown Brooklyn. So he went
over there and he spoke with him on my behalf,
gave him the papers on had lunch together, spent about
two hours, and the guy got right back and touched me.
He said, look, man, he said, if I wasn't gonna

(45:08):
take your case after talking to Bob Jackson, I'm gonna
take it now. He said, because a guy who had
been through what he'd been through to come in there
and talk to each other. Because he said, this guy
had met every crook in the world in the thirty
six years that he worked that singing in prison, and
he come in there to talk to you about you
like that. He said, I have to take a leaeve man,
He said, I have to take this case and you.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Ralph McDaniels like how Ralph believed in me.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah, yeah, and what when I say this, this is quick?
But it didn't take this quick right here. But within
the next year he ended up getting me down into court.
You get out, and then I started speaking to you.
And then what I started speaking.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
To you said, you get out. The last time you
saw me, yeah, you got The last time you saw me,
I was on a buster on this shit we red
Lobster uniform one. I was defeated and that was my
third business.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
I gave it up.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
I decided to go back to Red Lofson. You come home. Now,
what happens now?

Speaker 2 (46:09):
Now? I'm like, uh, you know, this is a new
world coming out. This is eight years later. What what?
What is really gonna be out?

Speaker 1 (46:18):
How much did the world change in eight years to you?
I'm just curious. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Well, when I came around form us, everything look exactly
the same.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
That moment with Damon John is a production of the
Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from the Black
Effect Podcast Network, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite show and don't forget
to subscribe to and rate the show. And of course
you can all connect with me on any of my

(46:55):
social media platforms. At The Shark, Damon spelled like Raymond
the W
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC
Stuff You Should Know

Stuff You Should Know

If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.

The Nikki Glaser Podcast

The Nikki Glaser Podcast

Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2024 iHeartMedia, Inc.