January 5, 2024 • 31 mins
Part 1 of this throwback Fire Pit Podcast includes the people, places and things that had an influence on what Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw have become as architects, how and when they met, who was involved and why it works.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
The best way I know how to describe Ben Crenshaw
is simply say, look at our company name. Tell me
one other major championship winner with an unknown golf course
architect who would form a partnership and call it by
the other guy's name first.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
It didn't happen. It wouldn't happen, so.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
He has every right to be up first.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I followed Bill. I'm gladly followed Bill.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
With another log on the five nobody is getting tied.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
This is the fire Pit with Matt Chanella.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
The sixth episode of The fire Pit is part one
of the people, places and things that had an influence
on what Bill Core and Ben Crenshaw have become as architects,
How and when they met, who was involved, and why
it works. We start with suecoor Bill's wife.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I say, Ben Crenshaw.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
You say, because that is my connection with Ben. But
I really think of Bill and Ben as brothers. I
swear they came from the same mother because they are
so similar in temperament, They're so similar in graciousness they are.
They don't pay attention to things together. They pay attention
(01:35):
to things together, and I think they make each other better.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Next, we hear from Julie Crenshaw, Ben's wife.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
I say Bill.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Coore and you say genius.
Speaker 6 (01:47):
Reminded me a lot of Ben. Very quiet, very polite,
soft spoken. I can see why they have a lot
in common. They are kindred spirits.
Speaker 7 (01:58):
I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
That in this era of golf course architecture, I believe
Core and Crenshaw are the most consistent and thoughtful builders
of the fun and fair adventure we seek. As avid amateurs,
they move very little dirt and yet extract so much
soul from the land that they leave behind. I've been
fortunate enough to chronicle the development of almost half of
(02:21):
their portfolio. I've heard them preach restraint, celebrate strategy, and
I've watched them walk raw land in search of the
ideal routing. Bill is always out front, while Ben tends
to fall behind, stopping on occasion to ask questions and
flush out the options. As they build their thirtieth course
(02:43):
in their thirty fifth year of being partners. Their body
of work includes sand Hills, Friar's Head, and Colorado Golf Club.
Some of my favorites are Lost Farm, Caboc Cliffs, and
Bandon Trails. Some of their restoration work on Iconic ves
includes Cyprus Point Seminal and of course Pinehurst Number two,
(03:06):
the Sheep Ranch, the sixth course at Bandon Dune's and
their third for Mike Kaiser's Oregon Resort, opens on June first.
Julie and Sue will be used throughout this episode, as
well as Rod Whitman, a longtime associate of core In
Crenshaw who has almost ten courses to his credit, one
of which is Cabot Links in Nova Scotia. We also
(03:27):
hear from Scottie Sayers, Crenshaw's childhood friend and the one
who makes sure this partnership is also a business. Did
you ever think you'd be getting together on Skype to
have a conversation reflecting on your career and the beginning
of what has become core In Crenshaw.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
Rat.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
If it weren't for Julie and my wife Sue, we
wouldn't be here today.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I'll tell you that Julie Crenshaw confirms.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
They're like brothers. They how they think they both don't
have emails.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
You know that.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
You can get them to call, you can't get them
to text, but.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
They do it the old school way. Everything about them
is old school.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Bill Corr was an only child raised by a single
mom who worked multiple jobs to support the family and
any of young William's dreams and aspirations. Sue Corr shares
some perspective.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
I think that he had the most amazing mama on
the planet. She just encouraged him to be the best
at whatever whatever he wanted. He came home and said
he wanted to be an astronaut, she'd support that be
the best that you could be whatever he wanted to be.
I'm just sorry that I never met her, because she
(04:53):
raised an incredible man.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
As for designing backyard golf holes, if his mom was home,
he told me the routing tended to go around the house.
If she wasn't home, he often went over the house.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Well, at you're right.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
I grew up out in rural North Carolina and my
next door neighbor played golf and he introduced me to it,
and there he was really the only close neighbors. So
we would play around through the our backyard to his.
Speaker 8 (05:21):
Backyard, to the mailbox, and out across the dirt road
where we lived, and even in through the corn fields
when they were cloud under, so we'd make up our
own holes and things but I would caddy for him
and on some very special occasion he would go to Pinehurst.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
So he is the one who introduced me to Pinehurst.
And then later when I was in high school and
then of.
Speaker 9 (05:46):
Course in college, I'd go there a far more regular basis,
But at they were fun times and there were, you know,
the cornerstone of what I my introduction to golf and
my introduction to what interesting golf architecture was all about.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Sue Corp shares some perspective.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Bill wasn't raised with a father, and his parents were
divorced when Bill was quite young, and there were lots
of men who took over that position and really cared
for Bill and really nurtured Bill. And his mother was
smart enough and confidence enough to encourage all of that.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
As for Ben Crenshaw, he grew up at Austin, Texas,
navigating Lyons Municipal and the old Austin Country Club, which
was a Perry Maxwell design.
Speaker 7 (06:36):
The places where I was playing started me on kind
of thinking about golf courses. One of my first sort
of road trips was Brackenridge Park in San Antonio to
play in the Texas State Junior. It's an old tillinghas
course very tight. I mean there were a couple of
(06:57):
holes there you had to thread the needle big on trees.
But it started me thinking about different golf holes. And
then when I started traveling, I said, yeah, I've been
treated to some wonderful examples. So I just always I
was always kind of fascinated about golf courses and how
they were laid out. And then when I went to
(07:20):
Boston when I was sixteen to play in the National
Junior at the country Club, it.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Just blew my mind.
Speaker 7 (07:27):
I wanted to know who built the courses, who was
and you know, the organization's history of the game, the players.
I just from then on, I just started studying everything
I could find.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Although Bill Core was intrigued by the concept of golf
course designed, it was Pete Due who inspired more digging.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
I knew I like certain courses and certain yeah things,
and I tried to figure out why, but I really
wasn't that much into it. And when I saw what
Pete was doing, a little public course called O Call
in high Point, I just said, gee, this is different.
I wonder how you do this? And I was I
(08:11):
was about to get out of the army. I was single.
I didn't need any more money. Fortunately, working for Pete,
you weren't going to make much.
Speaker 9 (08:19):
But whatever it took to you know, I took myself alive,
and so yeah, that's how you get to that that.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
I began to basically just badger Pete. I thought I'd
like to see how this is done. And in the
beginning it was with the intention I'd just like to
see how you actually create one of these things. And
I was always thinking after that, I'll go back to
graduate school.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well obviously that didn't happen either, but.
Speaker 9 (08:49):
It's for my whole My whole career has been a
very circuitous, almost in so many ways, unplanned journey.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
As for meetings, Jack Nicholas at the nineteen seventy one
US Open and Marion ben Crenshaw had what you'd call
a spontaneous plant.
Speaker 7 (09:08):
I was changing my shoes in the locker room and
somehow Jack walked in by himself, and I said, oh
my god, here's my chance.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I've got to go got to go meet.
Speaker 7 (09:16):
Himself, following him upstairs, and it was a restroom up there,
so I said, oh god, I got him there. So
I went to the rest so I stuck out my hand,
I said, Jack, and John he said, well, I'll I'll
leave with him just.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So. But that was my first meeting with Jack.
Speaker 7 (09:41):
I admired the way he played everything else, but I
knew at that point he was just starting to get
into golf course architecture. So I thought, well, that's that's
pretty neat right there. And he ironically, you know, he
worked with Pete Died at Harbortown, although minimally there. Yeah,
(10:05):
and then he sort of knew that he was he
could do both jobs as a obviously world class golfer
and then obviously pursue architecture too, and he had a
true love and passion for it. But Jack was you know,
(10:27):
that's a lot to take on in a career business
wise and playing. But they seemed to juggle it, like
Arnold Palmer did too.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
After chasing down Pete Die a few times in the
early seventies, Bill was watching the local news which reported
Die was going to be building the Cardinal in Greensboro,
North Carolina, not far from where Bill lived.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
They were talking about that Pete Die was going to
be in town. They were going to start this golf course.
Still I'm thinking he didn't even call me, you.
Speaker 10 (10:56):
Know, tell me anyway, drive out there and he's with
a guy named John Gray who was Pete's construction form
in there and associate and he just finally time sun
for this guy to do.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
He just wanted to get rid of me and Matt.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I started with a pair of hip waiters and a chainsaw.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Well, Ben Crenshaw was having success on the course. Core
was going course to course with Pete and Roy died,
which is how he ended up in Huntsville, Texas. Is
water would the course that Pete kind of left you
at and said, you know you'd be the superintendent here?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Is that?
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Yeah, Matt, that's a very kind way of putting it.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
He got rid of you.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Peache sent me to work with his brother Roy, supposedly
to help Gary grand Staff, who was the golf course superintendent,
and work for Roy to help Gary.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Uh Spanish water with National Well.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
In Huntsville, Bill met Ron Whitman, who was a Canadian
going to school at sam Houston State. Bill quickly became
a mentor and a friend.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
Well, I didn't have any money, so Bill always bought
the pizza and uh, I mean we played golf. I
just got to hanging out with him on the weekends
at Waterwood, and you know, Bill was out there seven
days a week, and uh, you know, over time we
just got to play a little golf together and then
and hang out and and I just loved being around him,
(12:31):
and he would talk about golf course design, and you know,
I was just trying to play golf at that time.
I had no aspirations to become an architect, but the
subject fascinated me, and he was very passionate about it.
So that's uh. He has some old books that I
could start to read and some notes that he'd made
when he worked for Pete, and uh, I became fascinated
(12:54):
with the subject. And then certainly just talking with Bill,
it was, uh, it was inspired, daring to think about
the old courses and golf course design in general, which
I had never you know, paid much attention to.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Now in the early eighties, still in Huntsville, Bill gets
a call from Pete Die He needed a guy in
Austin and he needed him.
Speaker 7 (13:17):
Now.
Speaker 11 (13:19):
We were out doing some work, I think on the
Ninth Green and he got a call from from Pete.
Pete wanted somebody to go to Austin. And you know,
as he said later, dump trucks, you know, was to
watch the dump trucks dump and tell him where to
dump and that sort of thing. He took the phone call,
came back out and asked me if I wanted to
go to work with Pete. And I just was the
(13:41):
damn nervous. I could hardly talk. And after a little
bit I certainly agreed to it, and he made the arrangements,
had to rent me a car, and I and I
you know, drove out to Austin that day. It will
all happened very fast.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
So Rod is now working for Pete Dye. Bill had
worked for Pete Dye, and Ben was keeping an eye
on Pete Die.
Speaker 11 (14:08):
You know, when I was saying in Austin at the
Austin Country Club, Pete would come to town and then
you know, he would have visitors. I mean, Tom Kite
would come out there and Ben Crenshaw would come out there,
and you know, they'd walk around and try to hang
out with Pete a little bit and just watch him work.
And so when he did come out there, I mean,
(14:31):
obviously I got a chance to meet him because I
was part of that entourage. And you know, Pete told me,
he says, you know Ben's coming out here. He says,
just just listen to him and do whatever he wants.
He said, So it was sort of an interesting time.
Speaker 7 (14:47):
I was told by Rod Whitman was Pete De's foreman,
and I'd gotten to meet Rod, and I'm really interested
in what he was doing. I saw Pete many times.
They both made and he said, you know what, you
need to meet Bill Kourr. You need you need to
meet Bill Kurr. I really think that you'd like him.
Speaker 11 (15:08):
I would go back and forth to Huntsville every now
and then and talk with Bill, and I told him
that I'd met Ben, and I thought, man, this guy
is just a really nice guy. He's really cool guy.
He's interested in designing, and uh, you know, I just
I just know that talking to Bill that I mentioned that,
(15:28):
you know, it would be nice if he if he
met him.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
The seeds had been planted, but before they met. A
man named Dave Kerry helps get Bill his big break
down on the Gulf Coast of Texas, four hours south
of Huntsville.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
He said, look, we've known each other now for a
two years. He said, I know you're the superintendent here,
by I know, really what you'd like to do is
be in the golf course design business. He said, this
may be the chance, and he took me down Rockport
Hendry Club, mentioning enough was it in the middle of
building their first nine holes, and for some reason, I've
(16:05):
never known what happened, but there were some as they
say in Texas, are falling out between the owners and
the golf course architect. And so they just dismissed him
on the spot. But here they are, they're digging lakes,
they're doing they're working in this nine holes and they've
got no one in charge of their design. I guess
(16:27):
Dave Carriacter water with you this. He takes me down there,
introduces me, and so they're on the spot. They say, well,
you're supposed to know something about this.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
We need somebody.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
This is the maximum you can spend and if you
want the job, you got to and figure it out.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
And it's yours.
Speaker 9 (16:43):
I guess I was so naive, and so, as they say,
walked into the deep end of the pool paddle around again.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Even with his raw talent and ambition for architecture, Bill
cor couldn't go it alone. He called upon Jerry Clark
aka Screwed, who had been helping him with coursework at Waterwood.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
And so when Rockport came along, I said, Screage, you
want you want to go?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
You want to go? Let me and try it, see
if we can make some of this. Yeah, but I'll
go with you. And so we the two of us.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Go down there and and we we start working on it.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Said basically, just two of us start with.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
And then another guy who lived there named Mike McKay
who ended up working with Ben and May for years,
and it actually became the nucleus or the cornerstone now
of you the guys that we have today because Jerry
Clark and Mike McKay trained like jimbo right and and
Dave Accent and these guys who have now gone on
(17:44):
to train all these other guys. So you can trace
it right back to that. But yeah, we we finished
the nine holes in Rockport. It turned out, you know,
they thought it was good. We actually did a second
nine holes there immediately after.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So it was eighteen.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
The guys and I were kind of tiptoeing along, but
we were I guess, I guess you could say we
were officially in the golf course design builds.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I asked Rod Whitman for his thoughts on Rockport, the
first original Billcorp design.
Speaker 11 (18:16):
I loved Rockport. It was a great little setting in
a small town. And yeah, every day you get up,
you just want to play golf and it was a
lot of fun. I could see where anybody looking at it,
knowing that it was new, to say, man, that's pretty classic.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Rockport was good enough to get that team some attention,
but according to several potential clients, they were missing something.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
One most memorable story, at least to me, happened in Houston,
Texas with the man who was a very successful real
estate golfers had a nice, beautiful office and I guess
what at the time was the tallest building in Houston.
He goes Bill. He said, I've seen your golf course
(19:04):
in Rockport. It's really good. He said, it's really good.
He said, but nobody's ever heard of you. Nobody knows
who you are. This business is about selling real estate.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This is not so much about golf.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
If you walk in here tomorrow with Lay Trevenue on
your arm, or Tom Watson or you know somebody like that,
he said, I'll hire you until then, and he walked
me over to the window of his high rise office.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
We looked down on the street.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
He said, until then, until I can walk down there
on that street and call out your name and people
stop to look around to see where you are, you
don't get hired.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
So well, I don't do that.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
And I said, I just haven't really felt like I said, job,
we got another job.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
We hopefully we'll get another one. I don't know. I
just it's just not.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Something i'd really given much thought to. He said, well,
if you did, who would it be?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You just referred to it Matt.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Ben had just won the Masters nineteen eighty four, and
this probably was happening maybe the month.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
After that. But I didn't know Ben.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
But I just I'd read the articles in the magazines
where Ben's talking about golf and golf architecture. I just said, well,
I guess I guess there were gonna be anybody be
Ben Crunchaw. The guy looked at me and he just goes, God,
a mighty bill, he said, I know Ben.
Speaker 9 (20:43):
He said, he was a romantic and naive as you are.
A few guys together would be his master.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So then along comes Charlie Belair, another wealthy Texas businessman
who had some land on the Gulf Coast. He wanted
to have Bill cor And again a well known player,
take a look, and although he still didn't know him,
Bill floated the idea of Ben Crenshaw again. But Bill's
(21:15):
first visit to that land was by himself. As for
his first impressions of the potential project.
Speaker 9 (21:22):
Mad it wasn't gonna happen. It's just one of the
worst sites you'd ever see.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
It went underwater, salt water, so, I mean, it wasn't
gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Bill had seen enough and he left town.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Charlie calls me back and he says, Bill, can you
come down here. Ben Crenshaw is going to come down here.
I want you guys to look at this. He was
still hopeful. I knew I got down the golf coast.
Ben comes over. Ben looked at the site in a
nano second. You know, Robin Williams would say, no, we're
(21:56):
not building the golf course. But that man did, at
least from my side of the equation. He's the one,
uh who who got us together that day. Uh we
you know, we met for the first time. We ended
up that afternoon going over to Rockport. It was really
(22:18):
close and then I walked the host in the Rockport.
I mean, I'm walking with Ben Crunch, the Master Champion,
and I'm not thinking this is just well, I hope
you work the courses.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
And I looked at that golf course and there was
there was something totally different about what I saw. It
was interesting, it was natural. It looked like it sprang
right out of the ground, and it had at It
had a particular appeal to me, and I thought, wow,
(22:51):
this is this guy has a really sense of feel
of the atmosphere of where he's working.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
About this time, Crenshaw had just left IMG and had
hired his childhood friend and business partner, Scotty Sayers as
his manager. Sayers recalls seeing Ben when he got back
to Austin.
Speaker 12 (23:14):
He walked into the library at his house after spending
the day with Bill and Julie was in there, and
I've seen him excited, but this was one of the
most exciting times for him, just because he really didn't
have a partner or didn't have a plan on how
to get into the business.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
They had met, there was interest, and in Ben's mind
it was a done deal.
Speaker 7 (23:40):
It was just unbelievable how this happened. Nineteen eighty five.
Nineteen eighty five is when we decided to make a
go at this, and that was the year I married Julie.
So I made two really good decisions. Remember Julie when
(24:01):
I came back and you know, I was god I
was playing. I'm still going to play tournaments, I said, Julie.
I made a decision. I said, I'm going to Bill
Kohor and I am in a former partnership, and she said,
why in the world are you doing That's a you're
a player.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
And I said, you're going to have to trust me on.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
This, Julie, and I was thinking, Wow, what are you kidding?
And I was like, are you sure you want to
do this? You know, because he was struggling with his health,
struggling with this game. We just got married. We weren't
even certain he was ever going to play competitive golf again.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
In nineteen eighty five, Ben Crenshaw missed the cut in
thirteen of his first nineteen tournaments. He was eventually diagnosed
with what's called Graves disease, an overactive thyroid.
Speaker 6 (24:58):
He could not break eighty, could not putt, could not chip,
could not just played terrible golf. Blamed it on stressed,
lost like thirty pounds instead of Sports Illustrated putting him
on the cover for when in the Masters, they were
like chasing him on the golf course because he was
shooting eighty and missing cuts.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And it was horrible, horrible, poor.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
It was sad and horrible, and I mean really we
had no idea if.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
He was going to ever compete.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
And so when we got married, remember they did a
blood test on him and checked us. They were like,
your thigh is huge. Well it was off the charts.
So they gave him radioactive iodine to kill it, and
they said, six weeks later, you should feel better. Six
weeks to the day, he finished tied for six at
(25:52):
the US Open at Chinnakok, and we skipped around that
place like he had one the tournament. I remember Raymond
winning and we were like, well.
Speaker 11 (26:04):
We won, you're back, you are back.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
Four weeks later he won the muic Open, and then
he was off.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
So he took you know, took a gamble on getting
married to me, took a gamble on Bill, and you.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Know, didn't know if he was going to get better,
but it all worked out and he did get better,
thank goodness.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So who and what gets credit for this chance encounter
p Die, of course, but they couldn't have done it
without Rockport Country Club.
Speaker 12 (26:38):
I mean, there's no question that the routing there very
traditional and not much distance between the going.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
From the grain to the tea.
Speaker 12 (26:48):
Easily walkable course, very interesting, good bunker work, and it
was it was early Bill.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Coore, but you could sure see what was.
Speaker 12 (26:59):
Going to be in his mind in the future as
he designed courses. And sure that's where Ben really really
was hooked on Bill Kover.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
And they probably wouldn't have met without Rod Whitman.
Speaker 11 (27:14):
They just seem like they would become pretty good friends.
You know, they're they're both at the same sort of
age and mental stability, if I can call it that.
You know, they just they just I thought that they'd
get along very well and uh, you know, could talk
(27:35):
architecture on a level that that made some sense and
just had a feeling.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
And apparently this doesn't happen without some perseverance by Ben Crenshaw.
Speaker 7 (27:46):
And I'll confess I was the one who pursued Bill
in the elite. Bill was not interested in partnering with anyone,
and I think I don't know a month, maybe three,
and went by and it got to what I may
have tried to talk him into it, and it wasn't
(28:08):
really interested. You know, I can't.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I kind of you know, I can understand that.
Speaker 7 (28:16):
And when it finally he came around and I said,
you know, maybe maybe maybe we could give this a go.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It's beginning to sound like a fairy tale. You know.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
We met in eighty four, and then over a period
of over a year, I mean significantly over a year,
we would just occasionally get together or we'd have phone
conversations about golf architecture.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Ben would call sometimes have you ever seen this or that?
Speaker 11 (28:45):
You know?
Speaker 5 (28:45):
Of course, and thinks, but there was never really this
great game plan to make this happen, and it's been
has been said, he he he.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
He likes to take the blame, I guess for us
being together. I think he pursued it. It was.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
To say that I don't It was just such a
natural evolution. But at some point in time, man, and
I can sincerely say, there wasn't this great dinner, there
wasn't this great whatever, there wasn't too many beers out someplace,
and then said let's do it. It just evolved and
(29:25):
we said let's try some of this together.
Speaker 7 (29:30):
Fate. In retrospect, I look back on it, and Fate
had a fickle hand in all this. I've had some
nice things happened to me in my career. This is
one of them.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
In Part two, which will go live in a week,
we're taking this partnership all the way to send Hills
in the Brea, the sand based trampoline that vaulted these
guys into another atmosphere of architecture. Are you looking for
good value on great golf apparel as a listener to
this podcast, My friends John Ashworth and Jeff Cunningham at
link Soul in Oceanside, California are offering you a twenty
(30:17):
five percent discount on all future orders of what I
Wear all day, every day, on and off the course.
Whenever you go to linksoul dot com, just use promo
code matty G twenty five m A t t y
G twenty five. Thank you for listening to the fire Pit.
It's produced by Alex Upeggi. It's edited by Rex Lint.
(30:40):
The theme song is by Joe Horowitz. Please rate and
review this podcast on Apple Podcasts and we might track
you down and send you one of our new Imperial ropads.
Got a question, comment, or a story for us to
track down. You can find me on Twitter at Matt
Janella or on Instagram at Matt Underscore. And if you
(31:01):
haven't already done so, please subscribe to the fire Pit
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to
a story like this one. You can also subscribe to
our YouTube channel, which is where we post portions of
our podcast and add some visual surprises.
The best way I know how to describe Ben Crenshaw
is simply say, look at our company name. Tell me
one other major championship winner with an unknown golf course
architect who would form a partnership and call it by
the other guy's name first.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
It didn't happen. It wouldn't happen, so.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
He has every right to be up first.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I followed Bill. I'm gladly followed Bill.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
With another log on the five nobody is getting tied.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
This is the fire Pit with Matt Chanella.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
The sixth episode of The fire Pit is part one
of the people, places and things that had an influence
on what Bill Core and Ben Crenshaw have become as architects,
How and when they met, who was involved, and why
it works. We start with suecoor Bill's wife.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I say, Ben Crenshaw.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
You say, because that is my connection with Ben. But
I really think of Bill and Ben as brothers. I
swear they came from the same mother because they are
so similar in temperament, They're so similar in graciousness they are.
They don't pay attention to things together. They pay attention
(01:35):
to things together, and I think they make each other better.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Next, we hear from Julie Crenshaw, Ben's wife.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
I say Bill.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Coore and you say genius.
Speaker 6 (01:47):
Reminded me a lot of Ben. Very quiet, very polite,
soft spoken. I can see why they have a lot
in common. They are kindred spirits.
Speaker 7 (01:58):
I can tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
That in this era of golf course architecture, I believe
Core and Crenshaw are the most consistent and thoughtful builders
of the fun and fair adventure we seek. As avid amateurs,
they move very little dirt and yet extract so much
soul from the land that they leave behind. I've been
fortunate enough to chronicle the development of almost half of
(02:21):
their portfolio. I've heard them preach restraint, celebrate strategy, and
I've watched them walk raw land in search of the
ideal routing. Bill is always out front, while Ben tends
to fall behind, stopping on occasion to ask questions and
flush out the options. As they build their thirtieth course
(02:43):
in their thirty fifth year of being partners. Their body
of work includes sand Hills, Friar's Head, and Colorado Golf Club.
Some of my favorites are Lost Farm, Caboc Cliffs, and
Bandon Trails. Some of their restoration work on Iconic ves
includes Cyprus Point Seminal and of course Pinehurst Number two,
(03:06):
the Sheep Ranch, the sixth course at Bandon Dune's and
their third for Mike Kaiser's Oregon Resort, opens on June first.
Julie and Sue will be used throughout this episode, as
well as Rod Whitman, a longtime associate of core In
Crenshaw who has almost ten courses to his credit, one
of which is Cabot Links in Nova Scotia. We also
(03:27):
hear from Scottie Sayers, Crenshaw's childhood friend and the one
who makes sure this partnership is also a business. Did
you ever think you'd be getting together on Skype to
have a conversation reflecting on your career and the beginning
of what has become core In Crenshaw.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
Rat.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
If it weren't for Julie and my wife Sue, we
wouldn't be here today.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I'll tell you that Julie Crenshaw confirms.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
They're like brothers. They how they think they both don't
have emails.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
You know that.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
You can get them to call, you can't get them
to text, but.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
They do it the old school way. Everything about them
is old school.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Bill Corr was an only child raised by a single
mom who worked multiple jobs to support the family and
any of young William's dreams and aspirations. Sue Corr shares
some perspective.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
I think that he had the most amazing mama on
the planet. She just encouraged him to be the best
at whatever whatever he wanted. He came home and said
he wanted to be an astronaut, she'd support that be
the best that you could be whatever he wanted to be.
I'm just sorry that I never met her, because she
(04:53):
raised an incredible man.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
As for designing backyard golf holes, if his mom was home,
he told me the routing tended to go around the house.
If she wasn't home, he often went over the house.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Well, at you're right.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
I grew up out in rural North Carolina and my
next door neighbor played golf and he introduced me to it,
and there he was really the only close neighbors. So
we would play around through the our backyard to his.
Speaker 8 (05:21):
Backyard, to the mailbox, and out across the dirt road
where we lived, and even in through the corn fields
when they were cloud under, so we'd make up our
own holes and things but I would caddy for him
and on some very special occasion he would go to Pinehurst.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
So he is the one who introduced me to Pinehurst.
And then later when I was in high school and
then of.
Speaker 9 (05:46):
Course in college, I'd go there a far more regular basis,
But at they were fun times and there were, you know,
the cornerstone of what I my introduction to golf and
my introduction to what interesting golf architecture was all about.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Sue Corp shares some perspective.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Bill wasn't raised with a father, and his parents were
divorced when Bill was quite young, and there were lots
of men who took over that position and really cared
for Bill and really nurtured Bill. And his mother was
smart enough and confidence enough to encourage all of that.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
As for Ben Crenshaw, he grew up at Austin, Texas,
navigating Lyons Municipal and the old Austin Country Club, which
was a Perry Maxwell design.
Speaker 7 (06:36):
The places where I was playing started me on kind
of thinking about golf courses. One of my first sort
of road trips was Brackenridge Park in San Antonio to
play in the Texas State Junior. It's an old tillinghas
course very tight. I mean there were a couple of
(06:57):
holes there you had to thread the needle big on trees.
But it started me thinking about different golf holes. And
then when I started traveling, I said, yeah, I've been
treated to some wonderful examples. So I just always I
was always kind of fascinated about golf courses and how
they were laid out. And then when I went to
(07:20):
Boston when I was sixteen to play in the National
Junior at the country Club, it.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Just blew my mind.
Speaker 7 (07:27):
I wanted to know who built the courses, who was
and you know, the organization's history of the game, the players.
I just from then on, I just started studying everything
I could find.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Although Bill Core was intrigued by the concept of golf
course designed, it was Pete Due who inspired more digging.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
I knew I like certain courses and certain yeah things,
and I tried to figure out why, but I really
wasn't that much into it. And when I saw what
Pete was doing, a little public course called O Call
in high Point, I just said, gee, this is different.
I wonder how you do this? And I was I
(08:11):
was about to get out of the army. I was single.
I didn't need any more money. Fortunately, working for Pete,
you weren't going to make much.
Speaker 9 (08:19):
But whatever it took to you know, I took myself alive,
and so yeah, that's how you get to that that.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
I began to basically just badger Pete. I thought I'd
like to see how this is done. And in the
beginning it was with the intention I'd just like to
see how you actually create one of these things. And
I was always thinking after that, I'll go back to
graduate school.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well obviously that didn't happen either, but.
Speaker 9 (08:49):
It's for my whole My whole career has been a
very circuitous, almost in so many ways, unplanned journey.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
As for meetings, Jack Nicholas at the nineteen seventy one
US Open and Marion ben Crenshaw had what you'd call
a spontaneous plant.
Speaker 7 (09:08):
I was changing my shoes in the locker room and
somehow Jack walked in by himself, and I said, oh
my god, here's my chance.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I've got to go got to go meet.
Speaker 7 (09:16):
Himself, following him upstairs, and it was a restroom up there,
so I said, oh god, I got him there. So
I went to the rest so I stuck out my hand,
I said, Jack, and John he said, well, I'll I'll
leave with him just.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So. But that was my first meeting with Jack.
Speaker 7 (09:41):
I admired the way he played everything else, but I
knew at that point he was just starting to get
into golf course architecture. So I thought, well, that's that's
pretty neat right there. And he ironically, you know, he
worked with Pete Died at Harbortown, although minimally there. Yeah,
(10:05):
and then he sort of knew that he was he
could do both jobs as a obviously world class golfer
and then obviously pursue architecture too, and he had a
true love and passion for it. But Jack was you know,
(10:27):
that's a lot to take on in a career business
wise and playing. But they seemed to juggle it, like
Arnold Palmer did too.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
After chasing down Pete Die a few times in the
early seventies, Bill was watching the local news which reported
Die was going to be building the Cardinal in Greensboro,
North Carolina, not far from where Bill lived.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
They were talking about that Pete Die was going to
be in town. They were going to start this golf course.
Still I'm thinking he didn't even call me, you.
Speaker 10 (10:56):
Know, tell me anyway, drive out there and he's with
a guy named John Gray who was Pete's construction form
in there and associate and he just finally time sun
for this guy to do.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
He just wanted to get rid of me and Matt.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I started with a pair of hip waiters and a chainsaw.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Well, Ben Crenshaw was having success on the course. Core
was going course to course with Pete and Roy died,
which is how he ended up in Huntsville, Texas. Is
water would the course that Pete kind of left you
at and said, you know you'd be the superintendent here?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Is that?
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Yeah, Matt, that's a very kind way of putting it.
Speaker 7 (11:43):
He got rid of you.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Peache sent me to work with his brother Roy, supposedly
to help Gary grand Staff, who was the golf course superintendent,
and work for Roy to help Gary.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Uh Spanish water with National Well.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
In Huntsville, Bill met Ron Whitman, who was a Canadian
going to school at sam Houston State. Bill quickly became
a mentor and a friend.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
Well, I didn't have any money, so Bill always bought
the pizza and uh, I mean we played golf. I
just got to hanging out with him on the weekends
at Waterwood, and you know, Bill was out there seven
days a week, and uh, you know, over time we
just got to play a little golf together and then
and hang out and and I just loved being around him,
(12:31):
and he would talk about golf course design, and you know,
I was just trying to play golf at that time.
I had no aspirations to become an architect, but the
subject fascinated me, and he was very passionate about it.
So that's uh. He has some old books that I
could start to read and some notes that he'd made
when he worked for Pete, and uh, I became fascinated
(12:54):
with the subject. And then certainly just talking with Bill,
it was, uh, it was inspired, daring to think about
the old courses and golf course design in general, which
I had never you know, paid much attention to.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Now in the early eighties, still in Huntsville, Bill gets
a call from Pete Die He needed a guy in
Austin and he needed him.
Speaker 7 (13:17):
Now.
Speaker 11 (13:19):
We were out doing some work, I think on the
Ninth Green and he got a call from from Pete.
Pete wanted somebody to go to Austin. And you know,
as he said later, dump trucks, you know, was to
watch the dump trucks dump and tell him where to
dump and that sort of thing. He took the phone call,
came back out and asked me if I wanted to
go to work with Pete. And I just was the
(13:41):
damn nervous. I could hardly talk. And after a little
bit I certainly agreed to it, and he made the arrangements,
had to rent me a car, and I and I
you know, drove out to Austin that day. It will
all happened very fast.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
So Rod is now working for Pete Dye. Bill had
worked for Pete Dye, and Ben was keeping an eye
on Pete Die.
Speaker 11 (14:08):
You know, when I was saying in Austin at the
Austin Country Club, Pete would come to town and then
you know, he would have visitors. I mean, Tom Kite
would come out there and Ben Crenshaw would come out there,
and you know, they'd walk around and try to hang
out with Pete a little bit and just watch him work.
And so when he did come out there, I mean,
(14:31):
obviously I got a chance to meet him because I
was part of that entourage. And you know, Pete told me,
he says, you know Ben's coming out here. He says,
just just listen to him and do whatever he wants.
He said, So it was sort of an interesting time.
Speaker 7 (14:47):
I was told by Rod Whitman was Pete De's foreman,
and I'd gotten to meet Rod, and I'm really interested
in what he was doing. I saw Pete many times.
They both made and he said, you know what, you
need to meet Bill Kourr. You need you need to
meet Bill Kurr. I really think that you'd like him.
Speaker 11 (15:08):
I would go back and forth to Huntsville every now
and then and talk with Bill, and I told him
that I'd met Ben, and I thought, man, this guy
is just a really nice guy. He's really cool guy.
He's interested in designing, and uh, you know, I just
I just know that talking to Bill that I mentioned that,
(15:28):
you know, it would be nice if he if he
met him.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
The seeds had been planted, but before they met. A
man named Dave Kerry helps get Bill his big break
down on the Gulf Coast of Texas, four hours south
of Huntsville.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
He said, look, we've known each other now for a
two years. He said, I know you're the superintendent here,
by I know, really what you'd like to do is
be in the golf course design business. He said, this
may be the chance, and he took me down Rockport
Hendry Club, mentioning enough was it in the middle of
building their first nine holes, and for some reason, I've
(16:05):
never known what happened, but there were some as they
say in Texas, are falling out between the owners and
the golf course architect. And so they just dismissed him
on the spot. But here they are, they're digging lakes,
they're doing they're working in this nine holes and they've
got no one in charge of their design. I guess
(16:27):
Dave Carriacter water with you this. He takes me down there,
introduces me, and so they're on the spot. They say, well,
you're supposed to know something about this.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
We need somebody.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
This is the maximum you can spend and if you
want the job, you got to and figure it out.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
And it's yours.
Speaker 9 (16:43):
I guess I was so naive, and so, as they say,
walked into the deep end of the pool paddle around again.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Even with his raw talent and ambition for architecture, Bill
cor couldn't go it alone. He called upon Jerry Clark
aka Screwed, who had been helping him with coursework at Waterwood.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
And so when Rockport came along, I said, Screage, you
want you want to go?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
You want to go? Let me and try it, see
if we can make some of this. Yeah, but I'll
go with you. And so we the two of us.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Go down there and and we we start working on it.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Said basically, just two of us start with.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
And then another guy who lived there named Mike McKay
who ended up working with Ben and May for years,
and it actually became the nucleus or the cornerstone now
of you the guys that we have today because Jerry
Clark and Mike McKay trained like jimbo right and and
Dave Accent and these guys who have now gone on
(17:44):
to train all these other guys. So you can trace
it right back to that. But yeah, we we finished
the nine holes in Rockport. It turned out, you know,
they thought it was good. We actually did a second
nine holes there immediately after.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So it was eighteen.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
The guys and I were kind of tiptoeing along, but
we were I guess, I guess you could say we
were officially in the golf course design builds.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I asked Rod Whitman for his thoughts on Rockport, the
first original Billcorp design.
Speaker 11 (18:16):
I loved Rockport. It was a great little setting in
a small town. And yeah, every day you get up,
you just want to play golf and it was a
lot of fun. I could see where anybody looking at it,
knowing that it was new, to say, man, that's pretty classic.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Rockport was good enough to get that team some attention,
but according to several potential clients, they were missing something.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
One most memorable story, at least to me, happened in Houston,
Texas with the man who was a very successful real
estate golfers had a nice, beautiful office and I guess
what at the time was the tallest building in Houston.
He goes Bill. He said, I've seen your golf course
(19:04):
in Rockport. It's really good. He said, it's really good.
He said, but nobody's ever heard of you. Nobody knows
who you are. This business is about selling real estate.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This is not so much about golf.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
If you walk in here tomorrow with Lay Trevenue on
your arm, or Tom Watson or you know somebody like that,
he said, I'll hire you until then, and he walked
me over to the window of his high rise office.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
We looked down on the street.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
He said, until then, until I can walk down there
on that street and call out your name and people
stop to look around to see where you are, you
don't get hired.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
So well, I don't do that.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
And I said, I just haven't really felt like I said, job,
we got another job.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
We hopefully we'll get another one. I don't know. I
just it's just not.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Something i'd really given much thought to. He said, well,
if you did, who would it be?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You just referred to it Matt.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Ben had just won the Masters nineteen eighty four, and
this probably was happening maybe the month.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
After that. But I didn't know Ben.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
But I just I'd read the articles in the magazines
where Ben's talking about golf and golf architecture. I just said, well,
I guess I guess there were gonna be anybody be
Ben Crunchaw. The guy looked at me and he just goes, God,
a mighty bill, he said, I know Ben.
Speaker 9 (20:43):
He said, he was a romantic and naive as you are.
A few guys together would be his master.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So then along comes Charlie Belair, another wealthy Texas businessman
who had some land on the Gulf Coast. He wanted
to have Bill cor And again a well known player,
take a look, and although he still didn't know him,
Bill floated the idea of Ben Crenshaw again. But Bill's
(21:15):
first visit to that land was by himself. As for
his first impressions of the potential project.
Speaker 9 (21:22):
Mad it wasn't gonna happen. It's just one of the
worst sites you'd ever see.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
It went underwater, salt water, so, I mean, it wasn't
gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Bill had seen enough and he left town.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Charlie calls me back and he says, Bill, can you
come down here. Ben Crenshaw is going to come down here.
I want you guys to look at this. He was
still hopeful. I knew I got down the golf coast.
Ben comes over. Ben looked at the site in a
nano second. You know, Robin Williams would say, no, we're
(21:56):
not building the golf course. But that man did, at
least from my side of the equation. He's the one,
uh who who got us together that day. Uh we
you know, we met for the first time. We ended
up that afternoon going over to Rockport. It was really
(22:18):
close and then I walked the host in the Rockport.
I mean, I'm walking with Ben Crunch, the Master Champion,
and I'm not thinking this is just well, I hope
you work the courses.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
And I looked at that golf course and there was
there was something totally different about what I saw. It
was interesting, it was natural. It looked like it sprang
right out of the ground, and it had at It
had a particular appeal to me, and I thought, wow,
(22:51):
this is this guy has a really sense of feel
of the atmosphere of where he's working.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
About this time, Crenshaw had just left IMG and had
hired his childhood friend and business partner, Scotty Sayers as
his manager. Sayers recalls seeing Ben when he got back
to Austin.
Speaker 12 (23:14):
He walked into the library at his house after spending
the day with Bill and Julie was in there, and
I've seen him excited, but this was one of the
most exciting times for him, just because he really didn't
have a partner or didn't have a plan on how
to get into the business.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
They had met, there was interest, and in Ben's mind
it was a done deal.
Speaker 7 (23:40):
It was just unbelievable how this happened. Nineteen eighty five.
Nineteen eighty five is when we decided to make a
go at this, and that was the year I married Julie.
So I made two really good decisions. Remember Julie when
(24:01):
I came back and you know, I was god I
was playing. I'm still going to play tournaments, I said, Julie.
I made a decision. I said, I'm going to Bill
Kohor and I am in a former partnership, and she said,
why in the world are you doing That's a you're
a player.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
And I said, you're going to have to trust me on.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
This, Julie, and I was thinking, Wow, what are you kidding?
And I was like, are you sure you want to
do this? You know, because he was struggling with his health,
struggling with this game. We just got married. We weren't
even certain he was ever going to play competitive golf again.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
In nineteen eighty five, Ben Crenshaw missed the cut in
thirteen of his first nineteen tournaments. He was eventually diagnosed
with what's called Graves disease, an overactive thyroid.
Speaker 6 (24:58):
He could not break eighty, could not putt, could not chip,
could not just played terrible golf. Blamed it on stressed,
lost like thirty pounds instead of Sports Illustrated putting him
on the cover for when in the Masters, they were
like chasing him on the golf course because he was
shooting eighty and missing cuts.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And it was horrible, horrible, poor.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
It was sad and horrible, and I mean really we
had no idea if.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
He was going to ever compete.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
And so when we got married, remember they did a
blood test on him and checked us. They were like,
your thigh is huge. Well it was off the charts.
So they gave him radioactive iodine to kill it, and
they said, six weeks later, you should feel better. Six
weeks to the day, he finished tied for six at
(25:52):
the US Open at Chinnakok, and we skipped around that
place like he had one the tournament. I remember Raymond
winning and we were like, well.
Speaker 11 (26:04):
We won, you're back, you are back.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
Four weeks later he won the muic Open, and then
he was off.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
So he took you know, took a gamble on getting
married to me, took a gamble on Bill, and you.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Know, didn't know if he was going to get better,
but it all worked out and he did get better,
thank goodness.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So who and what gets credit for this chance encounter
p Die, of course, but they couldn't have done it
without Rockport Country Club.
Speaker 12 (26:38):
I mean, there's no question that the routing there very
traditional and not much distance between the going.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
From the grain to the tea.
Speaker 12 (26:48):
Easily walkable course, very interesting, good bunker work, and it
was it was early Bill.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Coore, but you could sure see what was.
Speaker 12 (26:59):
Going to be in his mind in the future as
he designed courses. And sure that's where Ben really really
was hooked on Bill Kover.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
And they probably wouldn't have met without Rod Whitman.
Speaker 11 (27:14):
They just seem like they would become pretty good friends.
You know, they're they're both at the same sort of
age and mental stability, if I can call it that.
You know, they just they just I thought that they'd
get along very well and uh, you know, could talk
(27:35):
architecture on a level that that made some sense and
just had a feeling.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
And apparently this doesn't happen without some perseverance by Ben Crenshaw.
Speaker 7 (27:46):
And I'll confess I was the one who pursued Bill
in the elite. Bill was not interested in partnering with anyone,
and I think I don't know a month, maybe three,
and went by and it got to what I may
have tried to talk him into it, and it wasn't
(28:08):
really interested. You know, I can't.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I kind of you know, I can understand that.
Speaker 7 (28:16):
And when it finally he came around and I said,
you know, maybe maybe maybe we could give this a go.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
It's beginning to sound like a fairy tale. You know.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
We met in eighty four, and then over a period
of over a year, I mean significantly over a year,
we would just occasionally get together or we'd have phone
conversations about golf architecture.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Ben would call sometimes have you ever seen this or that?
Speaker 11 (28:45):
You know?
Speaker 5 (28:45):
Of course, and thinks, but there was never really this
great game plan to make this happen, and it's been
has been said, he he he.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
He likes to take the blame, I guess for us
being together. I think he pursued it. It was.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
To say that I don't It was just such a
natural evolution. But at some point in time, man, and
I can sincerely say, there wasn't this great dinner, there
wasn't this great whatever, there wasn't too many beers out someplace,
and then said let's do it. It just evolved and
(29:25):
we said let's try some of this together.
Speaker 7 (29:30):
Fate. In retrospect, I look back on it, and Fate
had a fickle hand in all this. I've had some
nice things happened to me in my career. This is
one of them.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
In Part two, which will go live in a week,
we're taking this partnership all the way to send Hills
in the Brea, the sand based trampoline that vaulted these
guys into another atmosphere of architecture. Are you looking for
good value on great golf apparel as a listener to
this podcast, My friends John Ashworth and Jeff Cunningham at
link Soul in Oceanside, California are offering you a twenty
(30:17):
five percent discount on all future orders of what I
Wear all day, every day, on and off the course.
Whenever you go to linksoul dot com, just use promo
code matty G twenty five m A t t y
G twenty five. Thank you for listening to the fire Pit.
It's produced by Alex Upeggi. It's edited by Rex Lint.
(30:40):
The theme song is by Joe Horowitz. Please rate and
review this podcast on Apple Podcasts and we might track
you down and send you one of our new Imperial ropads.
Got a question, comment, or a story for us to
track down. You can find me on Twitter at Matt
Janella or on Instagram at Matt Underscore. And if you
(31:01):
haven't already done so, please subscribe to the fire Pit
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to
a story like this one. You can also subscribe to
our YouTube channel, which is where we post portions of
our podcast and add some visual surprises.
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