Andrew Berry - GM Cleveland

Thomas parks the van in Cleveland, Ohio and sits down with one of the youngest GM's in the league, Andrew Berry. Andrew discusses his unique path to the GM chair and he and Thomas talk about the new management style in the NFL that is diversifying beyond football first.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is arial custom bound and I am the
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(00:21):
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donating to this amazing initiative at fair meals dot org.
Forward slash donate. M All right, what arrived with John

(00:41):
Schneidero Seattle. As you can tell, again very very popular,
has a lot of strong opinions and it's just a
real all around great guys. Thanks, John. Really appreciate that.
As we do. We criss crossed the country. WE'RE BACK
OUT CLEVELAND TO SPEND SOME TIME in my hometown with,
you know, someone that I have a lot of respect for.

(01:03):
Welcome to the GM journey with Thomas dimitrof. He's young
in the business. At the core, Andrew Berry, the GM
from the browns, really well rounded, very, very intelligent. Of
Harvard Grad. He spent some time under our friend, Howie
Roseman and Philadelphia, who really honed his skills as a
football man and then he brought all of that together

(01:25):
with his really good understanding of, you know, quantifying football
players and an organization and roster optimization. You'll get a
really quick glimpse and then you'll realize quickly that you
have someone like Andrew in this business that needs to
be in this business as to be evolved in being
much more than just a whole bunch of football people.

(01:46):
The League is going this way and Andrew's on the
front end of it all and you'll see why he
has a special addition to GM ranks. Here we are Brie, Ohio,
to Cleveland Browns facility with the General Manager, Andrew Berry,
one of the most impressive young executives in sport. Andrew,
thanks for joining me. I really really appreciate Thomas. I'm

(02:08):
looking forward to thank you for having me. This is
this is great. I've been thinking about it. Honestly, you
and I have been talking for a while to try
to map this out and I know it's really complicated
for everyone trying to put their their worlds together, and
I feel like I've been there for a number of
years of course, and now I'm three wheel and flying
around and people are probably like well, tea, we don't
all have as much time as you have now, so

(02:28):
let's let's jump into this. You are historically the youngest
general manager in the history of the National Football League.
When did you first think that you wanted to be
a general manager in this league? I think for me
it actually came pretty early in my career. Um, yeah,
the way I got into the NFL, I feel like
I was very, you know, fortunate and really kind of

(02:51):
stumbled into it. So, Um, played college football, was a
college corner. My first boss in the NFL was Tom Palasco,
who's obviously the general manager of the chargers, was the
scouting director for the colts at the time and he
had gone had made a trip to the northeast, stop
at BC, stop at Harvard. You know, we had a
pretty good group there and got familiar with my background
now as a prospect. That was just this like, you know, fringe,

(03:13):
you know fringe type of guy. and Um, Tom reached
out after it was done playing and just was basically
like hey, if you have an interest in working in
a front office and scouting particular, I think you'd be
a really good fit. We have a scouting assistant position
over open. We'd love to have you come the interview
for it. And that was really the first time that
I thought about getting in the NFL. Like I just
I had no idea that those type of jobs existed,

(03:37):
and so I went through the interview process, learn more
about the profession and was fortunate enough to start under
some really great um for an office executives with, you know,
Bill Polian and Chris Pollian, you know Tom and it
probably became you know, during probably my first two years
in the league. Once I once I saw football from
that perspective, a non playing perspective, and it was like,

(03:58):
Oh wow, this is pretty cool because that's at the
intersection of a lot of things that I like, right,
the sport itself, Um, and the economics of the sport,
like putting together a roster, all the strategy behind that.
It's probably at that point I was like man, I
think this is something that I'd really like to do. Well,
I mean obviously you jump in, you'Rre around some amazing
football people. I think back and I look at in

(04:20):
your thirty four years, right, thirty four years, like I'm
just amazed. I think it's amazing you carry yourself so
well and, uh, everyone wants to be looking longer, younger,
and you do look younger, of course, but for now.
But now, believe me? Yeah, no, for now. So you've
been around some amazing executives, I think, a lot of levels,

(04:41):
different teams, et Cetera, as a middle management person and
growing and watching closely, I'm sure, at a lot of levels.
So one in particular I really want to know what
leadership principles that you really walked away with after your
time with Howie Roseman. Yeah, no, how the year I
spent in Philly was probably Um, if not the most

(05:04):
influential year my career. It's probably one of, you know,
one of the top two, and for me the biggest
takeaway that I got for Howie is how he led
through adversity because you know, as you know, Thomas, like Philly,
is a very tough market. It was a year where
we went to the playoffs but again, as you know,
every year has its ups and downs, whether you're a
thirteen and three or three and thirteen, and it was

(05:26):
a real struggle and you know how we you know
how we would always kind of make two points. If
we came in Um after a major injury or maybe
like a really bad loss, you know how the how
the local media can be all over you, it can
be a little bit of a tough Monday in the building. Howie,
whenever you see him he is always positive. It's positive energy,

(05:47):
positive energy, positive energy, and regardless of how if he
may have he may be having to to to pump
himself up, you know, internally before he comes in, but
he's just always like look, everybody is going to look
to the or leadership group in terms of how to
behave or how to navigate, whether it's a major crisis
or short term adversity. And the second thing he did

(06:09):
is he's like his routine winner loss was always the same,
like throughout, throughout the week. It was never he was
never a different person or, you know, a different individual,
regardless of what was going on. And that's something that
made such a strong impression on me because when in
some weeks it feels like the sky is falling outside

(06:29):
the building, there's this there's this stability, calm for thinking,
positive energy that he would exude and that would really
permeate the rest of the building and everyone's like okay, like, Hey,
what happened this weekend was was bad, or what happened
yesterday was bad. But before focus, we're gonna find a
solution and we're gonna get through, and that's something that
I've at least tried to employ in my short time

(06:50):
on the job. I mean, that's a great point. I mean,
I think generationally speaking, I feel like way back in
those early years when I was in the NFL, there
was a lot of, you know, keeping people on their toes. Right,
I don't truly, and I say this with all due respect,
I don't believe that flies the same way with maybe
our generations as much. I think you're right, Thomas, because sure,

(07:13):
there's always it's always important to maybe have a little
bit of Um, I don't know if tension is the
right word, but, like you want leaders that are that
are demanding, but the idea that people should be walking
on end sheels are always uncomfortable. It's I don't think
it's good for organizational culture and, quite honestly, it's not
good for employees mental health as well. Yes, well, I mean,
and that's something we'll talk about a little bit later,

(07:34):
it's it's a great point. If you were to classify
your leadership style over these first two years as a
general manager and your years earlier, you know, in in
the Middle Management Area, how would you classify that? I've
really tried to Um, you know, employ the model of
servant leadership, and a big reason why is Um. You know,

(07:55):
my first head coach I work for in the NFL
was was Jim Conwell, strong men of faith. Um, Indianapolis
had really the culture that Tony Dungee established and then,
you know, Jim, Jim Cobwell continued to carry forward made
an incredible impression on me. And then, quite honestly, when
Chuck Pogano got hired, Um and really, you know, different

(08:16):
personality but had the same approach. And we had the
year where, you know, Chuck had chuck I cancer, missed
a big part of the season. We were, you know,
we had been the worst thing the league the year before,
and everybody really embodied that attitude about like hey, you know,
team before self, like everyone can be a leader in

(08:37):
their role because they served their their teammates and, Um,
the broader organization. It just had such a huge impact
on me, Um, in terms of just how awesome that
season was. And but honestly how awesome that that working
environment was. So that's something that I've I've always tried
to carry forward and something that I really believe in.

(08:57):
And I'll say I feel very fortunate that I have
had a coach who, independently, you know, has said like
that's that's his philosophy as well, Um, and that makes
it really easy to to to to to execute here
in Cleveland. So I often think about when you have
a really strong GM and a really strong head coach,
you have really definitive styles and they may be different.

(09:21):
It becomes complicated. I'm not saying you should be the same,
but it is nice when you come into a setting,
and I was very fortunate with Mike Smith in the
in the first few years, seven years in Atlanta and then,
you know, going with with Dan Quinn all the way
to to the point of firing and lets past October.
We had really good relationships and we had a lot
of consistencies that I thought were really important for us

(09:42):
to make sure that we were, you know, sort of
disseminating the right messages around the building. That was big.
It doesn't have to be the same, of course. So
you've again been around a lot of really interesting talented people.
On on the football side, you've had some ups and
some downs as far as the organizations that you've worked
with during those times. Um, is there a major lesson

(10:03):
that you learned through the ups and the downs and,
and maybe you don't have to go into specifics, but
focusing on, you know, some of those tough, challenging times? Yeah,
and I think it's actually the biggest lessons I drew
from probably the greatest moments diversity, which have been my
biggest learning stretches throughout my career. Is Really what you
touched on, you know, just a few minutes ago, like

(10:24):
the idea of alignment. Um, what I've seen at, quite honestly,
very various stops, the places where we've had the most success,
people have been on the same page with both football
philosophy and how people are gonna work together on a
day to day basis and football operation. That doesn't mean
that people always agree, but there's a there's a there's

(10:44):
just a pretty clear philosophy. Hey, this is how we
operate and this is how we believe in winning when
things haven't gone as well, and whether it's both results
on the field or probably quite honestly, the thing that
hurts the most is just how things maybe went in
the building and how relationships deteriorated Um and it made
it difficult for really just everyone involved. It's been this

(11:07):
this this misalignment of both football philosophy, how people treat
each other and how people work together. I often say,
you know this, this league has so many talented people
and so many intelligent people. Sometimes we tap into it,
other times, unfortunately, we don't. They just don't get an
opportunity to really shine and be able to, you know,

(11:27):
really talk about what they know, uh and contribute to
the organization's I'm a big believer in that. I'm also
a big believer and everyone has a little bit of
a Um, what I call a Pigeonhole, right, we all
you know, one guy would rather be in the mountains
snowboarding and mountain biking. I used to get that. Whatever
it may be, I have always believed that as long

(11:49):
as your pigeonhole isn't full of crap, meaning as long
as you're not a BS person in this league, you
have a legit opportunity to work through the tough times
and the challenges and continue to grow and involved and
be the best leader that you can be within the NFL.
But again, if you're if you're a guy that's slinging it,
it's just not it's not gonna happen. So I think
it's so important when we see that within organizations. I

(12:12):
know personally, when I saw that over the years as
a general manager, it was a major red flag for me.
I'm a big believer in positive, passionate and persevering people.
I know it's again contrived alliteration, I guess you could say,
but I believe in those three aspects because I think
they're so important. Yes, of course you need intelligence, yes
of course you need you know, drive, etcetera, etcetera. But when,

(12:34):
when people are truly focused and they're really putting their
best foot forward in those three years, I think, I
think we all have the fighting chance, Thomas, when? Because
we all make mistakes, right like we like to think
that we all about a thousand but maybe when you
had a situation, you know, in in Atlanta or even
in your previous stops, where it's like, you know what,
this person was misaligned and maybe it does creep to

(12:56):
the surface where there are all problems, how did how
did you handle that as a as a or a
general manager or high level executive. So I've always taken
a lot of pride in my awareness. I'm a big
believer in awareness. Right. I mean I think it's important
for you, as a general manager, and me, as a
former general manager, to know you're building, to know your staff,
to to know everyone's you know the positives, of course,

(13:17):
but also know where their challenges are, where their idiosyncrasies are,
and make sure we're tracking and monitoring properly. From a
general manager position, I'm a big believer in making sure
that I try to help that person correct what maybe
some of their shortcomings and challenges. And I am a
big believer it's not one strike and you're out. I'm

(13:39):
a believer in working on it, but I think we
all know when you really start working on it with
those people who are coming up short and they are
just not a team fit, that it's time to move on.
And I've I've had occurrences over the years. Sometimes it's
been long and drawn out and other times it's been
fairly quick, I will also say, but there are but
also in times along the way where I truly believe

(14:02):
that I needed to make a change and I didn't
and it ended up being really dusty and it ended
up being a situation that I'm not a big believer
in just slashing and burning people at all, but I
realized over this this many years in this league that
when those mistakes came seemed to be when I was
dragging my feet, thinking I know this person needs to go.

(14:26):
It's just not a good fit. They're very talented and
very intelligent, but it's not for this organization, and I
hung on. Sometimes, by the way, I'll admit it was
of my own volition. There are other times it wasn't. Sometimes,
look the way we look at it, there could be
a contractual issue. And this isn't just players, this is coaches,
this is a young administrators, of scouts, of personnel people.

(14:48):
Sometimes you have a number of different layers in there
that are complicated. It's a great question and thanks for
asking that, because, you know, too many times we think
it's gonna be easy, right. We know this. It's cut
and dry. It's not that way all the time and
so times, unfortunately, you're losing a very talented person, at
least from a football ops standpoint, where you're like wow,
I think that's probably one of my biggest learnings over

(15:10):
probably even the last five or six years in my
career the fact that I really used to go into
a thing it's like hey, it's all about talent. We'll,
we'll figure out a way. It'll it'll work it out,
like the talent, like everyone doesn't always have to be,
you know, best friends, which you know, which is still true.
But when you get into a situation where either misaligned
or even worse, maybe an individual lacks integrity, it's just

(15:32):
so damaging for the organization. It always just feels like
such a force and I've learned that I probably I
definitely overweighted that earlier in my career and didn't pay
enough attention to the overall organizational fit. Well, you you have.
Speaking of fit, you have a really good understanding of
how you want your organization and football ops to to

(15:52):
fall into place, and I'm talking about the people that
you hire and the people that you surround yourself with. Again,
I mentioned earlier when we were talking a little bit
about the the academic side to your your approach, which
I have a great deal of respect for. I think
the meathead just trudge forward thing is not something that
I'm a big fan of in the National Football League.

(16:13):
I think there is so much there to add to
the league at so many levels into an organization that
I think that you, you come strong into this league
with as a general manager now going into your second year,
you've surrounded yourself with some really talented people. Tell me
a little bit about your approach to that process and
without going in a ton of detail about who, but

(16:34):
how did you come up with the idea that you
have right now with the mix of people you have
around you? So I think it's a couple of different things.
I think you know my belief is that, like, ultimately
we want to be geared to optimal decision making because
that will that will lead to success. Well, if you
kind of if you kind of work backwards, like what

(16:55):
are some of the pitfalls of decision making where if
you have maybe two narrow two narrow perspective, or not
not enough voices at the table, or maybe perhaps even
not the right voices or right expertise at the table?
I think the second thing is looking at how other
successful organizations, whether it's in tech or financial services or
other sports, like in you know, baseball, basketball, hockey, Um,

(17:18):
you know, you name it, really how they how they
build their organizations and then really what skills they bring
to the table. So our philosophy here has largely been
all right, we want a diverse number of people in
perspectives that have a legitimacy at the table, because they'll
help us to minimize the decision makers, whether it's me

(17:39):
or Kevin or, you know, a decision maker in another
area of football operations, you know, our own personal biases.
It helps us get the right information to the table
and it helps us get, you know, deeper insights because,
you know, one of the things that I thought like
maybe kind of coming up a little bit more the
traditional way is at times when we were making decisions,
it was like everybody had the same back ground, had

(18:00):
the same perspectives, the same experiences, and times like when
we made mistakes, I was saying, well, you know what, shoot,
if we had this alternative viewpoint, that would have actually
been really healthy at the time that we made we
made this decision. So that always made an impression on me.
Um earlier in my nfl career, where I want to
make sure that I surround myself with people who have

(18:22):
different experiences, it's different ways of thinking, all with the
same goal. That allows us to push it allows me
to push myself, push ourselves as to hopefully, you know,
make them make the best calls for the actually team. So,
Andrew Your your approach again. I continue to refer to it,
you know, just having a really holistic and smart approach.

(18:46):
Speaking of smart approaches, where are you with regard to
emerging technology, with regard to analytics and in in high performance?
And I'm grouping them all together. You can touch on
any of them or all of them, but I'm interested
because not only are you and very intelligent young man.

(19:07):
I say young, I'm saying that respectfully because I can't
believe we're twenty years difference. Like God, gotta let this go,
I know, Um, but you have you have your wise
beyond your years, of course, but I would love to
hear your your take on that in the direction we're going.
So I'll touch on each individually. So I'll start with
with analytics. And you know, for us it's it's just data.
Like we think that that's an area that has been

(19:29):
proven across industries, across sports, Um as an area that
allows us to have a competitive advantage. If you're at
the forefront and do it do it right. I think
there are really three, three main ways that you can
get advantaged with it. First is what I'll call informational
so right, the idea is if you have higher quality
data than your than your competitors, like, that's going to

(19:50):
drive insights better for you. The second which I think
probably the League as a whole focus is more on,
is the actual analysis of that data. Right, if you
get the best quantity of minds, if you get the
people who have like the strongest technical skills to analyze
the data that you have, you know you are going
to be better off than your competitors. I think the
third area, though, is in the decision making realm. So

(20:11):
let's say you have the best data, you have the
best analysts, but it only gets to a certain point
where it doesn't actually inform your decisions. Then it's it's
probably all all for nothing. So we're we are are
hyper conscious of being at the forefront of making sure
that we can acquire and manufacture the best data, have

(20:32):
the best you know, have the best analysts and then
ultimately that it it legitimately influences our decision making. All
Cross football operations Um in terms of the performance space
you know, I think this is something that you and
I have talked about a lot. You see the impact
that true players to development and a focus on Um
our players. You know, physical development can have. Can Happen Amore, especially,

(20:58):
especially in our sport because it is so physically demanding,
and we see the impact that a focus on high
performance has had in rugby soccer. Baseball is probably the prime,
you know, American example. You know basketball, and probably in
the NFL we're a little bit, you know, further, you know,
further behind in that regard. So it's it's definitely an
area that that we've invested, you know, pretty you know,

(21:20):
pretty heavily in Um and I think it just touches
touched so many areas, whether it's Um, you know, physical
development with you know, nutrition or mobility or strength or
skill development with your coaches or using Um, you know,
data on performance, data on hand to making two for
injury prevention or, you know, um optimizing when our players

(21:43):
have peak performance. I think it's an area where, you know,
I'll be truthful, I don't know that every anybody has
like a magic solution, so to speak, and it's something
that we're still working through. But much like in the MLB.
I think the teams that, you know, do it best
for us are going to have a major advantage because, look,
think about how much time and money we spend on

(22:05):
acquiring players and then once they're you know, once they're
in our programs. Like there should be a strong investment
in development as well, and that's that's something that we
we always want to be focused on. In terms of
the emerging technology space, I always think that's a little
bit trickery. So we actually do have a group that
is Um, specifically geared towards emerging technologies because we want

(22:26):
to keep our thumb on the on the pulse Um,
you know, of of of of innovation in that space. Uh,
I think nowadays there's so much out there and it's
a little bit about figuring out two things. Number One,
what is relevant for us, or like for for both
your sport and your individual team, I think. And I

(22:47):
think the second piece is Um. How far along is
it in its development, because I think there are a
number of interesting things that have applications, but then are
they actually usable at a particular point in time? And
then probably the third element is, will there be enough
buying for the technology? Because you know I have been
a part of Um organizations where at times we've invested

(23:08):
in the technology and it really is it's far enough along.
It has a very clear impact in terms of how
we can help improve our team. But if there's not
buying for the use, it's no different than when I
talked about with the analytics side, where you can have
good information, you can have good analysts, but it doesn't
actually informed decision making, then you're pretty much at ground zero.
So all of those are great and on board with it.

(23:31):
One of the interesting things is selling to your owners,
so to speak, how important it is right and also
the reality is that a lot of the technology you
may bring to the table you may have for one
or two years and and then there's something new coming
along and understanding and and I would say most of
the owners who are really strong stout businessmen understand that

(23:54):
you're not grabbing a piece of technology and writing it
for ten years, that that's part of it. Right. We're
investing and you'RE gonna be investing in that. I'm a
big believer in being on the front end of the curve,
Um not always at the very front end, but I
do believe a lot of it and sometimes it works
in our favorite at other times not. It's I love
your approach to it and I think it's really important.

(24:14):
In the very end, my own personal feeling is always
making sure that you are edifying, I would say, the
owner and you know, his designate, whoever that may be,
and making sure that it's not a joke on the
other side of the building like, Oh, there's t d again,
looking for a new edge to differentiate, because I am
a big believer you and I have to differentiate. We

(24:35):
have to differentiate not only on our abilities as general managers,
but also within your building. How are you going to
create things that are gonna, of course, create that that
marginal difference that can be different I'm gonna quote, I'm
gonna Uote Howary reroseman here again. He's always said that
the NFL is designed to be a bell curve right
where you know, every team starts off with the same resources,

(24:58):
whether it's cap, dollars, picks, like if you're if you're good,
they're they're Um disincentence with your resources moving forward because
you're good. If you're bad, there are incentence with your
resources because you're bad. The idea with bringing everybody to
the middle, but, like our jobs are to make sure
that the team gets to the top end of the tail. Right.
You want to be one of you, at the end

(25:19):
of the day, you want to be this the small
handful of teams that are, you know, playing late into
the season. Well, in order to do that, Um, you
do have to do things, some things differently and and
and take some and take some risks, um, but that
doesn't come by just, you know, by playing it safe.
And whether it's submerging technology or how you think about
the roster or how you put together to your team,
you have to be on the frontancial and that has

(25:40):
some downside, like you could end up in the other tail.
But at the end of the day, if you know
you're gonna win a super bowl or, you know, consistently
played for championships, you know you have to you have
to take a risk. So actually, I'll say one example
of that might be, you know, the trade that you made, uh,
what was it? Twenty eleven with with WHO? You know?
That's I think with that. That was a big one, right.

(26:01):
I mean I remember it, which is probably a perfect segue,
and what I was gonna I was smiling because I
was listening to you said you were gonna quote Howie Roseman,
and we all like quote and Howie. I mean we
have all guys a great funny Howie quotes, and Howie,
I know you're gonna be listening to this, I was
my my point counterpoint on it and believe me, I
am always on the front end. That's what I believe in.
But then you get the point counterpoint, because I've also

(26:23):
been quoted from Bill Belichick saying just do your F
and job. So where where are we with that? I mean,
I think it's honestly being mindful, as we're evolving, to
take all of that that you believe in and always
keeping in mind, you know, those guys and people in
this league that have so much intelligence. I think that's
what's fascinating about this league and you're in a great

(26:44):
spot to be able to grow and learn with all
of this. Uh, you know, as you evolved as a
general manager, it's gonna be amazing to see how this
all plays out. So I think, I think that is
one of the things that I continue to think about.
Front end of the curve, but all is being mindful
of when it is time to pull back a little bit.
Of course, and then you obviously have a very sound mind. So, Andrew,

(27:06):
for the rising executives out there, if there was one
thing that you would have done different before you got
into the National Football League, and that could be studied
a certain discipline or x, Y and Z, or play
different sports, what would you have done differently? That's a
that's a great question. Um, I think for me, probably

(27:27):
the one thing that I would have would have done
differently is, honestly, like I would have been more proactive
in finding mentorship. Um, I feel like I got lucky
because I'm more like stumbled into it and then, like,
as I progressed in my careers, like, Oh man, I
realized how important influential this was. But we all need

(27:49):
a roadmap with people who have been like, whether it's
in our personal life or a professional life, been where
we where we haven't to be little bit of a
guiding light, and I know that that's helped me both, um,
you know, avoid potholes and land mines and and honestly,
just like learn and develop and grow. And I would

(28:12):
encourage you know, any individuals just like find find good
mentors who invest in you, not because of like what
you can do for them, but because they like they
value as a as an individual, because those have been
some of the strongest relationships in my life and I
know that I wouldn't be here today without that. It's
funny you say that, because there's a lot of discussion now.

(28:33):
You know, high school feels like it's evolving. It seems
so fast right sometimes you want your kids or your
nieces and nephews to just be a kid for a while.
And yet I think there's a really nice balance there
to understand in some of that free time that you
can really start to professionally develop again without being, you know,

(28:54):
not nose to the grindstone. You still want to make
sure that you have balance, which is a whole other topic.
We would touch on a little bit it, but that
is something that I thought a lot about two when
I look back, um I felt like I had a
lot of people around me. It was brought to my
attention recently, over the last probably three years, by Steve
Cannon UH, one of Arthur's CEOS of all of Arthur
blank's businesses, formally with with Mercedes Benz and he said Thomas,

(29:18):
and by the way, he's a he's a West Point Grad.
I have a great deal of respect for him, even
though he was not on the football side, as a
leader and as a as a team builder, excuse me,
like a organization builder. And one of the things he
said was very few of you guys in football have
sort of professional training at being leaders, and it's so true. Right,

(29:39):
we've gone through, we played sport and we think we
we have a leadership on the field or on the court,
but truly digging into some of the the the the
the real fine tuned elements and nuances of leadership. That's
one of the things that I would press not only
with my my son, as he's, you know, growing older
and and and and and then maturing, but I would

(30:02):
say that getting into an organization, which is something that
I believe I would I would share that idea with
the owners. Now, if you can do one thing for
your staff, set up a really good, you know, teaching
program and a leadership program for the youth, the rising execs,
the mid level mid management people. Those people are right
in a right spot to be able to learn. I

(30:24):
think you're right because, you know, if you think about
how we came up as a scouts, it's like, all right,
you're they spent a ton of time on like evaluation
and player but then, okay, you become college director for
the first time, a pro director for the first time.
It's like, okay, now you're like leading and managing your group.
There's really not a tough like there's not a ton
of support, like people don't people don't give you support,
and you really learned by like it's like baptism by inferno,

(30:47):
like you just, you, just, you, just, you figure it
out by just speak for myself, I figured out by
making mistakes in that regarding like, okay, here I need
to like solicit help in this area. But I think
you're right, like we don't typically in the NFL have
a lot of like leadership and management training, but that's
what those jobs are like. That's like the job of
general manager, generally managing a football club, and uh, I

(31:11):
think it's that's more important than you know, some of
the hard skills that you develop. It's a great answer
and I could talk forever about it because I do
feel so strongly about making sure that you're not just
training the marketing group. I Hate I'm not. This isn't
about a divide between football ops and business, but I
don't know how many times that I've seen this over
the years where the business group was going and I

(31:32):
have a great friends there. Don't get me wrong, we've
had some great bottles of wine. I love it, but
it's not just about the marketing group training and going
to you know, all over the country and going to symposiums.
When the time is right, dig into that football operations
group and truly see how you can help them grow
and evolve. Next question has to do with if you

(31:56):
were to be able to share with the rising executives
the one thing that you would have done differently while
you were in the NFL moving towards that GM seat.
What would it be? The biggest thing I would have
done differently is just valued relationships more early in my career.
I know that's a very general and broad response. I
mean it in probably two main ways. So the first

(32:18):
time I was managing a group, I really focused on
vertical relationships, so, Um, my relationship with my with my
boss and then the people who were report, you know,
directly into me. But I didn't focus enough on really
what I would say like managing across and building relationships horizontally,
because football really is a it really is a consummate

(32:39):
team sport and it's not just on the field, it's
all the different groups that you that you that really
worked together to to build a successful football team, and
I think it's something that really actually hurt me that
I didn't do well my first time in Cleveland. I was,
you know, the personnel had and I was really focused
on the scouts and kind of relationship with with, you know,
with my general manager, but I didn't pay enough attention

(33:02):
early on with the other other relationships that would really
be key across the football operations spectrum and I think
that's particularly important when you get into crisis times, like
building relationships, and non crisis times, because every team and
every person in the NFL goes through those like difficult
moments on a yearly basis and certainly during different stretches
in their career, and I think that that's something that,

(33:24):
because I hadn't spent enough time there, it was really
difficult to navigate when when things weren't going well. And
then the second area I would say is like just
every job, en role has different constituencies of people where
healthy relationships, healthy professional relationships, are important. So I think
about my position as a general manager, and it's easy

(33:45):
to identify your scouting staff, your contract management team, your
your football operations groups, your support staff, your coaches. But
then it's also relationships with ownership, it's relationship with the
agent community, it's relationships with the media, it's relationships with
the League office, where we do have this like sport ecosystem,
so to speak, where everyone is at some level reliant

(34:08):
on um other groups to do their job effectively. And
that's probably one of my biggest learnings over the first
eighteen months in this job. That, hey, especially, it's not
just like your internal relationships. There are a number of
external relationships that need that need to be healthy, you know,
for you to be effective. Um, you know, running a team. Now,

(34:28):
I love that. I mean we talk often about how
important the people side of it is, right, and we
can take it outside of your organization. I'm a huge
believer in when you are able to secure a really
good trade, and I'm talking about a win win, because
in this league it is a win win. Yeah, every
once in a while you're at the opposite ends of
the of the world and you you have to it

(34:49):
has to be a little bit lopsided, but relationships are
key to get trades done. People do not want to
trade with jackasses around the league. That's the way it is,
I mean, like it or not. So relationships are important respect. Ultimately,
is really, really important to understand that everyone has a
job to do and everyone's trying to get to that
spot and it's been interesting to watch how that all
plays out over the years and the more trades you do,

(35:11):
the more you realize like wow, I really don't like
doing a trade with that guy. I would have a
glass of wine with him or a coffee with him
any day, but I really don't want to do a
deal with him. And if you were asked by a
group of owners to ask you to humbly advise them
on how you think at this juncture a an organization

(35:33):
should build their team builder at the very top group
so that the GM head coach, head coach GM, that
whole set up. What do you think right now is
the ideal way to do that? That's a tough question.
I don't mean ideal, but what would you suggest from
where you are? So I think, and hopefully this this
doesn't feel like I'm dodging the question, so I actually

(35:54):
would take a step back from that and I would
advise a group there. All right, the let's just take
the GM and head coaching job. That job, despite the
fact that everybody has the same title, that position can
look different in all in all, thirty two teams right,
like where, you know, in some organizations it's like, okay,

(36:16):
essentially the general managers, Zeo of the company. The head
coach reports into them, and some, you know, they you know,
one's basically CEO, one the CEO, and others, like you know,
the GM, maybe more more, just more of the personnel director,
with with you know, contract management, you know powers as well.
So like I think it actually starts with saying, okay,
when we think of the general manager, like the head coach,

(36:38):
here's what we want that individual to be able to do.
It's no different than when we scout Um for a
particular offensive defensive system. It's like it starts with getting
with your coaches have and saying, all right, what are
the actual requirements of this position in the system that
in the system that we're running? And so I would
encourage ownership groups to start there almost like create a

(36:59):
profile of like hey, this is what we're looking for,
and then as they search or or look for individuals
to fit that like search, like search for those skill
sets to put the put the executive group together. So
I mean again, I we all talk about it often, right.
We talked about it amongst the general managers and I'm
sure the head coaches talk about it, how important it

(37:21):
is to get the right fit. You know, it's it's
a partnership at the top there with on the football
ops side at least, and it's so important to be
able to be clear and communicative and regular with your communication.
I'm a big believer at that level to be as candor,
to be as candid as possible and have candor sort

(37:42):
of the overriding theme. I think is important. Um, sometimes
you're gonna rub people, but I think if you have
that respect and that that trust, you can go there
right and talk about the things that need to be
talked about. Where are you with transparency within the organization
outside of your relationship with Kevin Stefanski? And I'm talking
more your mid management group? And I'm a big believer

(38:06):
in edifying along the way right. I think, yes, we
all want to trumpet our our winds, but I from
from way back when I first got my GM job
with less need and Dave Calwell in the building with me.
All I ever really wanted to do when I did,
you know, trip up, was bring him in and share
with them. I messed up on this. I messed up
on a B and C, an x, Y and Z.

(38:27):
That was important for me. It felt like I was
given back as much as I wasn't ready to be
a mentor then and I wasn't thinking about legacy. I
really wanted to help my guys at the time, you know,
proceed and learn. Where are you? How much do you
believe it's important, as a general manager, to be transparent
and share the good, the bad, the ugly of what

(38:48):
we're trying to do as general managers? I think it's
important to be as transparent as possible because I think,
number one, you know, if, if you're preaching, Hey, we
trust our people will bring you in to contribute, like
it really is a two way street, like your actions
really do have to to mimic, to mimic your words. Um,
I think number two, it's what we talked about a

(39:09):
little bit earlier. Oftentimes, if, if, if people are taken
along for the ride, like you get good insight in
terms of things that you could do differently before you
make that, before you make that mistake. And I think
three it's a big thing. What you what you hit on,
having people learn and grow. I'd imagine that we've both
had people throughout our career that you know, let us,

(39:29):
let us have more than a peek behind the curtain,
as they as they were going through. Like the people
that come to mind, like how we SASHI Brown. You
Know Ryan Grigson, you know, you know bill and Chris Polian,
like they were always, you know, you know, real open books.
I think everybody can appreciate. Yes, there are some things
that have to stay a little bit closer to the vest,
you know, whether they're big strategic decisions for the for

(39:50):
the club in the moment or, you know, things that
are maybe uh, crises that are of a more personal
nature that just, you know, everyone necessarily can't be looped
in on. But as a whole I think there probably
is a little bit too much that we keep behind
the curbon as like as a sport, that really probably
doesn't necessarily need to be there. Well, I think retrospectively
I think you can share a lot. It may not

(40:12):
be right in that moment when things are heating up
the one thing that I think is really important as
well as again, I'm coming back to a thirty four
year old general manager and a fifty four year old
general manager or beyond, I would say to some of
the younger group as well, respectfully, uh and humbly, I
would say, make sure that you do grasp the opportunities.

(40:34):
Back in the day, and I'm speaking back when I
got started, we were so siloed that generation, that group.
You do your job and you do it to the
best of your ability. I still agree with that. I
still know, I believe that you and we all know
that we need to thrive in those areas. That said,
there were opportunities that I missed along the way to

(40:56):
grow learn, whether it was what I was referring to
earlier on the leadership side, or learning more about the system,
or whatever it may have been, because I thought, let
me just be the Best Scout, let me be the
best college director I could be. And I think now
our organizations and people like yourself and you know, formerly me,
are a lot more open to listening and and hearing

(41:17):
people say I want to learn that much more and
you're not looked upon, oh, are you looking for my job.
It's not a paranoia thing, it's I'm gonna help you grow,
and I think that's important. I also think the more
people that the the UH, the way I describe it is.
I think everybody should certainly have their major, but they

(41:38):
should have a bunch of miners as well, because the
more people that can call it, speak multiple languages, so
to speak, I think the better off you are, like
in football operations, because it's easier for for people to
see another person's perspective. It's, like I used to say,
taking a pure scouting terms, I used to always say
scouts that can see the game like coaches and coaches

(41:58):
that could see the game like scouts were invaluable in
the new organization, and I think that that spans beyond
just scouting and coaching. Could be research and strategy, contract management,
player development, logistics and compliance, like all of those areas
are important. I think the more people that have some
level of working, night working knowledge across those spaces they
are huge, hugely helpful in an organization and, quite honestly,

(42:20):
like that's the job of the general manager right like like.
I mean, think about how many areas that you've had
to touch throughout your throughout your career and it just
made you that much more effective and successful in your
time in Atlanta. Great, great answer once again. So let
me ask you this, speaking of candor just may not
be that comfortable for you. What truly do you think,
when you step back, differentiated you from the rest of

(42:43):
the pack that was here at Cleveland years before now
leading up to the point you got the GM job? Basically,
I am a big believer in that you get two people,
they're just gonna have to be something that separates right
whether we're interviewing for GM jobs, president's jobs or jobs
in the media or whatever it is, something is going
to have to set you apart. What do you think

(43:04):
it was? You know, I don't know that I could
speak for the organization in that regard. I can't say.
One thing that I was always very deliberate about doing
throughout my career is trying to broaden out my expertise.
Like I came up in scouting, but I realized very
early on, really by watching Niapoleon, that the job was

(43:25):
about a lot more than that and I wanted to
make sure that I learned enough about all areas of
football operation and got exposure, you know, running different groups
or having working knowledge of different groups that like I could,
I could fulfill that role here. I know that's been
very important, you know, with you know, with the browns
and I think the other part of his you know,
they wanted to leasure group that was, you know, very Um,

(43:48):
you know, for thinking and data oriented, and that's something
that was that was pretty naturally with, just like my
my orientation. Um. But those, those were probably the two
things that at least if I fluck back Um, you know,
would would probably my best guest. I don't believe the
owners in today's world are looking for that. What we
used to call Gosh, it maybe dated now is like

(44:11):
the true foothead. They're not. They're they're looking for well rounded.
I continue to tell people all the time come to
the table with the strength that you have. That could
be evaluation, it could be captain contracts, whatever it may be.
Always know that you're gonna be growing and evolving in
areas and and you know, be be a sponge, of course,
but thriving those areas and continue to grow in the
other areas and I think people have a really good

(44:33):
chance of having a really successful career. You know, as
team builders in this league. So, if I were to
ask you right now, Um, over the next five to
ten years, what is something that you were the most
encouraged by within the National Football League? Yeah, I think,
and I really do think, it's actually hiring practices in

(44:53):
the NFL, because there's obviously, uh, much more of a
focus on, Um, diversity an inclusion, and I think you
are starting to see not only just a concentrated effort,
but you're starting to see, you know, early returns, particularly
at maybe the lower levels and mid levels of the organization.
I think there's a lot of progress still to be
to be made, to be quite candid, Um, but I

(45:15):
think it's it's it's a good start and it's something
that that's only going to build momentum as we as
we go over time. So, Andrew, the League is progressing
with with regard to diversity and inclusion. We've made some
major strides. We still have quite a ways to go.
What is your stance on the League as far as
where we are, and, more specifically the Cleveland Browns? Yeah,

(45:37):
it's something that I actually applaud the League on for,
you know, many of the initiatives that they've put into
place to improve that aspect of hiring, not just at
the League office but across clubs, because I do think,
you know, we talked earlier how how important that. You know,
we believe it is in Cleveland. So I think, Um,
really probably over maybe the past two years, like I
think you're starting to see a bear bear fruit now

(46:02):
where I do think that we can make another step
for it. I think when we talk about diversity inclusion,
a lot of it is on demographic diversity. So, Um,
you know, race and ethnicity or gender, and that's that's
very important. But I also think that we can make
strides as a league in cognitive diversity, right, like the
different thought patterns that people have, and then diversity of

(46:23):
diversity of experience, because like all of that, like all
of that informs our perspectives are decision making and I
think it's it's equally important to to demographic diversity. So
you know, no doubt it's a it's a it's a
major challenge. Um, I think focus on all three of
those areas, as opposed to just demographic diversity, is important.

(46:46):
I love that just it makes you think at a
lot of different levels, which I think is important. And
I had talked a little bit earlier about this and
I'll ask you this question. How do you believe your
leadership has changed in that area with in the building
being that cognizant of it? Has It changed your approach?
You know what I I think I think my approach

(47:09):
probably evolved throughout my career. I think by the time
I got here to Cleveland for the second time, like
that's something I was very hyper focused on in terms
of building building out the football operations group. But I
think where it like I think about my bosses in
the NFL. So I had a hall of fame executive
who was who was basically a Unicorn. He could do everything. Um,

(47:30):
you know, Ryan Grigson came in. He was, you know,
largely on the college sign first time GM former player,
traditional scout. I went to Cleveland for the first time.
I worked under SASHI Brown, who had a legal background,
was a general counsel, very data focus, harvard law degree,
much different, like not like technically like a you know
call a non quote as like a non football guy. Um,

(47:51):
you know, John Dorsey, similar background to Ryan, former player,
had been an experienced general manager. Um, you know, college background,
go to Philly. Same thing as the same thing as Sashi,
like how he came up in contract management. You know,
Florida Law Degree, Um, you know, early in his career
thought of as like a non football guy. But the
thing is, like there were there were major things that

(48:12):
I took from every one of those individuals and and
and all of them had had successes to a degree,
and but they were totally different as like people, professionals
expected with the way they thought about things. But it
made me Rese I was like this is kind of cool,
like all of them have shaped have shaped my perspective
in some way, and I was like it would kind

(48:33):
of be cool like if all of them were in
a room together at the same time, like you probably
have a you probably have like an unbeatable football team,
just because, like they had such different ways of thinking
and viewpoints that that could help inform Um, could help
inform a group. So, but you can ask Mr Haslan
to give five million dollars to every contract sign um,
but know that's like it's a really good point, right.

(48:55):
It's a great point. How we're you know, we are
so formed by not only who we are at that
or but as you get around the really good people,
the ones that really helped form you and develop you.
I mean you have to be very proud of that group.
You look at it and humbly proud, of course, where
you're like this is you were blessed with that, of course. Andrew,
do you have a board of Advisors, a personal board

(49:18):
of advisors that you deal with? So I would so,
both professionally personally. Yes, I don't know that I've given
it that necessarily that formal name. So professionally, there's actually
a a meet every two weeks with basically four other
general managers that aren't in football, like the you know,

(49:38):
cross difference courts, where we can basically learn Um, you know,
share expertise and, quite honestly, just get a little bit
of a little bit of counsel, because it's like that's
not something that you're really able to do um with,
you know, with your with your competitors, Um. And then personally,
it's Um. It's largely like my family and UH, probably

(49:58):
three of my three of my college roommates, just people
who will speak truth to you and, you know, if
they can help you deal with Um, you know, any
personal situation. But it's, it's it's been. It's been really,
really healthy for me. I think that's great to be
able to do that and to be regular about it.
And you know, we we all have grandiose visions when
we kick it off and we're in the middle of
our world. God bless you for staying on it, because

(50:19):
it's not always easy. And the great thing is you've,
you know, you've grouped yourself with some really good people
who are willing to do the same. Right. I think,
I think that's that's a that's a great leading for
a lot of people. So we're into we're getting into
the summer right now and you know I'm a big
believer and again, professional development, always working to grow not
only my not only mine, but body and soul as well.

(50:42):
Are you reading anything or studying anything right now? Will
you be during the off season, during the summertime? Where
will you be focused in that? Yeah, so it's it's
probably too here. Is Number one is recharging, because I
think I think rest is a is a is a
huge thing. Um. But number two, I'm actually in terms
of president, I'm a big podcast guy, Um, and so
probably the two major ones that I've been listening to

(51:04):
are the Andy Stanley leadership podcast and the Craig Gro
Shell leadership podcasts and Um, I even I even do
that throughout the year where I'll listen to uh an
episode all my drive to work or my drive away
from work, and it's been been really helpful in terms
of the insights. And I know I said too, but
I'm going to give you a third. The summer is
also when I'll usually have some time to travel and visit,

(51:25):
whether it's different organizations or or different teams. Um, so
we'll definitely plan out a few trips in that regard. Well,
you're you're so rounded and obviously so intelligent, and it's interesting.
The other day, yesterday, we were talking about trying to
set this all up and you know, just trying to
navigate through all it's not easy. I remember I I
riffed off talking about other businesses, the biking industry, and

(51:46):
I can tell very quickly you went yeah, okay, well,
I'll talk to you later, and I realized you're not.
You're not interested in you're interested in recharging right now
and I know you're interested in a lot of really
cool things, but if it reminded me like Thomas, what
are you doing talking about another busines us here this
you just got finished with putting together a football team's
time for him to relax. So I'm gonna put note
the Tim Ferris Question. You we all know Tim Ferris,

(52:08):
I mean lifestyle guru and and you know I think
about this often because in the last three to five years,
is there any philosophy, approach, adjustment that you've made to
your life that has significantly changed the quality of your life?
It's a focus on mental health. I I did not

(52:30):
take my mental health seriously enough in my twenties where
you know part of it. It was just like it's
not something I ever really talked about or dealt with
with growing up, and I think also particularly in football,
you think about just like gutting, gutting through everything, and
it wasn't until Um I absolutely had to, that I

(52:53):
got the support and took the time to really dive
into my dive into my mental health, and I wish
I had done it sooner because is, you know, it
would have created less stress during certain periods of my
life with my family or at work and stuff like that.
But that, if I could give one piece of personal advice,
like just no different than your your physical health. Make

(53:13):
sure that your mental office a priority, but that mental
health idea. I look back on it now and people
ask me what were the tough things that you would
have never wanted back and now that you're out of
this right now. I've mentioned before. To me, it wasn't
about the big moves. It wasn't about asking, Mr Blank,
can we have hundreds of millions of dollars for this player?
It wasn't about evaluating a player and I wasn't concerned

(53:34):
about that. I say that humbly enough, but that was
my my world. It wasn't. It had much more to
do with the the incessant tug on my time, the
time element and wanting to make sure that I still
had balance to spend with my family and to spend
with people within the organization. It got complicated at times
and you get a little resentful and you realize like no,

(53:57):
that's what you signed up for. It's it's not easy. You,
of course, and if you can get to a point
at thirty four and move through, you know, through your
career and evolved like you are going to evolve with
without understanding, I think. I think the world is yours,
for sure. Very last question, very last question. I asked
just to everyone. If there were to be one question

(54:19):
that you feared I was gonna ask you and parends,
you don't have to answer that question. What would it be?
Oh Boy, one question. I'll be honest, Thomas. I really
didn't have a ton of fear that you were like.
I haven't. I have a ton of trust in you
and that's an honest and goodness answer. That's not even
a question. That no point throughout this was. I was

(54:42):
I afraid of anything. Well, look, there's a lot of
questions asking a lot of different levels in the NFL
and and appreciate you being here. I I I mean
our discussion right here was fantastic at so many levels
and had so much depth. So I really appreciate it.
You spending the time on your wife's birthday. Yes, UH, please, please,
thank her for me and Uh God, bless you man.

(55:02):
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, as you guys
can clearly see, it's just oozing out of the interview
the intelligence of Andrew Berry and it's just such a
human being that you know again, you pull for him.
He's coming out a really, really tough city, high expectations
in Cleveland. It's like Philadelphia through and through this this

(55:26):
area in Cleveland. They want to win her badly and
they're strongly believing that Andrew Berry camberring him the winner.
So we really appreciate the time with Andrew. Of course,
we're heading south now get all the way down into Phoenix,
meeting up with a very, very close friend of mine,
Steve Kim. A great deal of respect for him. He's
you could juxtaposition Steve Kim and Andrew Berry, very different personalities,

(55:51):
but they both, to me, are winners in this league.
Check it out. You have been listening to the GM
journ me with Thomas demitrop continue to follow Thomas as
he interviews GMS from your favorite NFL teams. The GM
journey has been produced by Alan Castenbaum, Thomas demitrof and

(56:12):
Octagon Entertainment. Don't forget to download and subscribe on Apple Podcasts,
spotify or wherever you get your podcast from. The GM
journey is distributed by the eight side network.