March 22, 2024 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle we're live from Colorado Public Radio just shy of the 25th anniversary of the Columbine school shooting, and we're asking you: what should be done to reduce gun violence? Jeremy is joined by Emmy Betz, Director of the Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative at The University of Colorado and John Brackney, a longtime civic and business leader and an advocate for responsible gun ownership. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #guns #gunviolence #NRA #Columbine #Uvalde #SandyHook
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson coming to you
this hour from Colorado Public Radio in Denver, and joining
me as always is Tolliver. Hey, Tolliver, Hey, Jeremy.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm not with you in person right now, but I
can confirm Colorado Public Radio has the best snacks in
the game.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
The best snacks I know Nashville they did feed me before.
The show is lovely now. So here's a fun fact
for you, Tolliver, because you know that The Middle is
also available as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Well,
since we started this show last September, a city that
has consistently been at the top of our list for
downloads of the podcast is Denver, Colorado. So here we are,
(00:43):
and we're here as Colorado's prepared to mark twenty five
years since the mass shooting at Columbine High School that'll
be next month. We're going to be asking what should
be done to reduce gun violence in America. We're taking
your calls at eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three to five to three.
In just a moment, but first, last week, we asked
(01:04):
you if it's time for a strong, viable third party
in the United States as we march toward a rematch
between current President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump
in the November election. Here are some of the voicemails
that came in after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Hi, my name is Jeanie. I'm comeing from New Orleans, Louisiana.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
This is Chris Damuels.
Speaker 6 (01:24):
Call him from Newbergh, Indiana.
Speaker 7 (01:27):
Hey, Jeremy, I'm Martie from Jacksonville.
Speaker 6 (01:30):
My name is Jens. I'm calling from Eagle River, Alaska.
How on earth are Donald Trump and Joe Biden are
the only two candidates that can be produced to represent
the people of this great nation the.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Way it's Sam's now.
Speaker 7 (01:47):
If Biden and Trump are running, there's absolutely no way
anyone else is going to win. So if you vote
for one of the third party candidates, it's the dumbest
thing anybody can do.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
So mistake the vote for party candidate, because it just
helps get elected the candidate that you least want.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I will take a third, fourth, fifth, other party whomever.
I don't care. Elmo could run, for Heaven's sake.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I would vote for for Elmo. Thanks so much everyone
who called in you for Elma. So now to our
topic this hour, which is what should be done to
reduce gun violence in America. It was twenty five years
ago next month that the nation was shocked by the
news of a mass shooting at Columbine High School.
Speaker 8 (02:33):
We are following a breaking store today, a shooting at
a high school in Littleton, Colorado, that's near Denver.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Here is what we know so far.
Speaker 8 (02:40):
Witnesses say two gunmen dressed in black trench coats with
black masks open fire at Columbine High School, not lunchtime
in Colorado. They said the gunman went from one area
of the school to another, shooting students as they went.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
At the time, Columbine was the deadliest mass killing at
a K twelve school in American history, but it was
later surpassed by Sandy Hook in twenty twelve, Parkland and
twenty eighteen, and Uvaldi in twenty twenty two, and in
the nearly twenty five years since Columbine, guns and how
to go about regulating them while respecting the Second Amendment
to the Constitution has remained one of the most contentious
(03:17):
debates in America, But is there a middle ground on
this issue? What should be done to reduce gun violence
in America?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three. You
can also email us by going to Listen to the
Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And let's meet our panel here with me in the
studio in Denver. Emmy Betts, emergency physician and director of
the Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative at the University of Colorado. Emmi,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 9 (03:44):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And John Brackney is here as well, a longtime civic
and business leader in Colorado, a veteran Army officer, and
an advocate for responsible gun ownership. John, welcome to you,
all right, Jeremy, So before we get to the phones
and they are starting to light up, Emmy, Columbine was
a mass shooting. It was also a school shooting. But
most of the gun violence that occurs in this country,
(04:06):
and we're talking almost fifty thousand deaths a year, is
neither of those things.
Speaker 9 (04:11):
Right, and thank you for starting off with that. I
think it's incredibly important that when we talk about gun
violence we look at the full picture. So in the
United States as a whole, over half of all gun
deaths are suicide. Here in Colorado, it's over seventy percent
of gun deaths or suicide in the nation as a whole,
so that the majority or suicide followed then by homicide,
(04:31):
usually interpersonal violence, particularly in urban areas. Mass shootings account
for only about one percent of all deaths. I don't
want to discount the incredible psychological toll that they have
on our country, but I think we really need to
move away from thinking about only the mass shootings and
only the things that capture media attention and recognize the
(04:52):
violence that's happening really to all of us and all
of our communities every day, because each of those is
a life loss. Yeah, and people left grieving, and they're
all preventable.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I we'll get to that. But John, in an op
ed for the Denver Post, you wrote that gun owners
are equally distressed over gun violence as non gun owners,
likely more so, That's what you said. So what do
gun owners like you think ought to be done legislatively,
let's say, to reduce gun violence?
Speaker 10 (05:20):
Well, thank you. More important than legislatively is culturally, and
so I think if we approach it in that way.
I do mean it. Gun owners are good, decent people
and it hurts really bad to think about a weapon
that they would own that would be used for ill intent,
and so to reach out to that person culturally, and
(05:41):
that's a hard thing to do. It's probably harder than legislation.
So I'm open to discuss legislation, but I think this
is more of a cultural issue.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
What do you mean, reach out to that person culturally,
reach out to the would be shooter culture?
Speaker 10 (05:52):
No, no, no, to a gun owner gun owners. I mean,
there's just so many guns in America and so many
gun owners in America. Two alienate them and to take
angst and anger out them, I actually think it's self defeating.
I think it's the opposite of what we should be doing.
We should be having conversations like this.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I mean, what about legislatively? Do you think that gun
control laws work?
Speaker 9 (06:13):
So I'm also going to advocate that we shift the
focus a little bit away from legislation. So at the
fire Man Injury Prevention Initiative, we specifically don't do legislative advocacy,
in part because it's so contentious, but more so because
there's so much that can be done through education through interventions.
And I want to second this whole idea of cultural change.
(06:34):
I mean, when we think about the suicide deaths, for example,
many if of those, if not the majority, are among
gun owners. And so if we want to reach populations
of gun owners about how to prevent those suicides, how
to prevent those deaths, we need to be doing in
a way that's bringing them into the conversation rather than
sort of immediate alienation. And so I love the idea
(06:55):
of us maybe tonight as a start trying to find
a way to defind this middle to talk about this
legislation might can be part of the solution, and we
should not be taking it off the table. But I
think we get so caught up in the politics that
we lose sight of all the other things we could
be doing.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Okay, let's go to the phones and Dylan, who's in Lakewood, Colorado? Dylan,
welcome to the middle. What do you think.
Speaker 11 (07:21):
Hither?
Speaker 12 (07:21):
Thanks for having me. I just want to say that
I was a student in Jeffco when Columbine happened, and
this is an issue that's near and dear to my heart.
I'm also a public teacher in Jeffco.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Public Jefferson County. I assume is what you're talking about there.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Correct.
Speaker 12 (07:36):
The issue for guns is as a teacher is a
really interesting one because obviously I'm constantly thinking about that
happening at school or in public places. If we're not
going to talk about legislation, which I hear the panel
talking about, then my question is how do we change
it culturally because there seems to be this huge divide
(08:01):
where we can't even talk amongst ourselves about the issue.
I think if we're not going to go for legislation,
then I think we need to put a ton of
funding into mental health and let's put our money where
our mouth. Our mouths are in terms of saying, if
guns aren't the problem, which there that could be a
whole discussion. But if guns aren't the problem, then where's
(08:23):
the money to culturally go after the issuet?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Well, let me tell me, let me ask that the
panel that question. Thank you Dylan for that call. John. So, yeah,
what did you mean by culturally sure?
Speaker 10 (08:37):
And I mean culturally like an umbrella over mental health issues?
So after Columbine, I was a Narapo County commissioner at
that time, and the South Metro Denver Chamber was integrallly
involved in providing support to not only Jefferson, but Littleton
Public schools where I went and where our daughters went
for fifteen years, once a week, once a month, for
(09:01):
fifteen years. Community leaders gathered together, so mental health, religious leaders,
school city council sheriff's department gathered together to talk about
holistically on how why some people resort to violence. So
we counted on CU the Center for Prevention for Violence,
(09:21):
how to SeeU Dell Elliott's work. And there's risk factors
in all of us, and there's protective factors, and some
people have a lot of protective factors. We're probably examples
of that in this room, have a lot of resources
if we start to go astray, and hopefully our risks
aren't as bad. But that combination, when you don't have
(09:42):
enough of one and I have a lot of others,
lead some people to do some really bad things in life,
including violence, And so I think we should take a
really holistic effort to try to minimize all sorts of violence.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Well, so what about something like red flag laws that
would fall under that EMI.
Speaker 9 (09:59):
Yeah, thank you Dylan for your thoughts. So when we
talk about risk factors and also protective factors. I think
maybe the number one thing for when we think about
suicide risk, particularly among teens who who are also at
risk of hurting other people, is access to guns. So
if there's one thing from tonight that I would love
people to take away, it's that if you have guns
(10:20):
in your home, they should be stored so they are
not accessible to the people who shouldn't be accessing them.
And I would argue that includes little kids, but also
teenagers because they have crazy, impulsive emotions. They also should
be protected from theft and so forth. And someone who's
going through a bad divorce, substance abuse, depression, etc. Also
Should not have access to guns. And so that's the
(10:42):
cultural change that we need to get to. And I
would argue, if you think about, for example, what we
did with things like friends that don't love friends, or
I've drunk or right. So some of that might have
been legislation, and some of it might have been penalties
or incentives, but a lot of it was things like
broad media campaigns. And that is actually coming, it's being
(11:04):
worked on. I think we're going to be seeing more
and more around secure storage in the year to come.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Well, yeah, And let me just ask you briefly, John,
do your friends who are gun owners do they store
their weapons safely? Securely?
Speaker 10 (11:15):
It's probably across the board, like the rest of humanity.
I will tell you, though, that I did. We have
two little girls, and after they were not just a
little crawling around, my guns were very weapons were very
well protected. And they still are because I really don't
feel like I have a threat towards myself or my home.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
You know, Tolliver, it's easy to forget that we did,
for a time have a ban on so called assault
weapons in this country.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah, Jeremy, here's former President Bill Clinton speaking in nineteen
ninety four when he signed a National Assault Weapons Band
into law.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Will this solve all the problems in America? No, this
is a puzzle. We're trying to fill in the puzzle
with a crime bill. But I'm telling you.
Speaker 8 (11:56):
This is this is an amazing It's amazing to me
that we even have to have this.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I mean, how long are we going to let this
go on? Well, that assault weapons ban only went on
for ten years. It expired in two thousand and four
and was not renewed. I want to remind our podcast
listeners if you are a big fan of the podcast,
please rate the podcasts and then get your friends to
rate the podcast. How many stars, Tolliver, five stars, five stars.
(12:21):
That's her cousins, your mom, all of them. We'll be
back with more of the Middle. This is the Middle
on Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle, and this
hour we're asking you what should be done to reduce
(12:43):
gun violence? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media, which a lot of people are
doing right now.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
And we are joined by Emmy Betts, an emergency physician
and director of the Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative at the
University of Colorado, and John Brackne, longtime civic and business
leader here in Colorado, a veteran Army officer and an
advocate for responsible gun ownership. Before we get back to
the phones Emmy Bets. Suicide, as we said, is the
leading cause of gun related deaths. Almost twenty seven thousand
(13:16):
Americans died by suicide using a firearm in twenty twenty two,
which is the most recent year for figures. What have
you learned from your research about the best way to
address that problem?
Speaker 9 (13:27):
Yeah, thanks for asking. So it's really important to emphasize
that suicide is preventable. Yes, people need access to mental
health care, substitute abuse treatment, et cetera, sort of the
bigger picture of what it is that's going to help
them get through their mental health crisis. But while they're
getting that treatment, it's incredibly important that they not have
access to lethal means, by which I mean anything that
(13:50):
can be used to die by suicide. Firearms are the
most lethal method of suicide. About ninety percent of the
time they result in death, which is why we talk
about specific reducing access to firearms during times of suicide risk.
And when I say that, I mean generally temporary and
voluntary changes. So it's about engaging the adult who's at
(14:10):
risk themselves and their family in making decisions about storing
guns differently so that the person doesn't have access. We
know that periods of suicidality can be fairly brief and impulsive,
and so if you can get someone through even that
one day of risk, the likelihood that they will die
is much much lower. People don't just substitute another method,
(14:31):
and even if they do, if they can't get access
to the gun, it's far more likely that they'll survive.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Although if it's a suicide we're talking about, it's quite
possible that they would be the one that has the
access to the gun, to their own gun.
Speaker 9 (14:43):
So I work as an er doctor. I care for
lots of people with suicide risk. The conversation I have
with them is about, while you're getting better, can someone
else in your home take control of the weapons. So,
for example, change the past coode on your safe so
that you can't get to it, but your wife or
who else still can. Can you temporarily move it out
of the home until you're feeling better, And so it's
(15:06):
a conversation with them about for themselves no longer having access.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Let's go to Robert, who's in Houston, Texas. Robert, welcome
to the middle. What do you think can be done
to reduce gun violence?
Speaker 5 (15:19):
Well, unfortunately, I don't have a I don't have an
all expansive answer to that question, but I think the
first step before we can even have just an open
and honest discussion with the entire country about it is,
as you noted, I'm in Texas. I mean, I'm in
(15:39):
the quote unquote ground zero of gun culture. I mean
nothing against responsible gun owners or hunters or anyone just
by virtue of being a gun owner or owning more
than one gun. But it just people really take it on,
is like it's not just a political issue, it's part
of their cultural identity. I mean like, if you're making
(16:03):
any noise towards gun control, they perceive it as not
just the policy discussion, but they're basically attacking them directly,
and families directly, and their ways of life directly. And yes,
when they really fetishize gun ownership to the point of
you know, t sets let's say, you know, my second
(16:24):
car is my fifteen or multi Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Robert, I think we've got we've got your point, the
fetishization of guns and how people really see them as
part of their core. John to you on that.
Speaker 10 (16:38):
So, I hope I'm not as far as fetishing, but
I am one of those folks that not only identify
with it culturally, it's in some ways and part of
its training. It's an extension of my core being. It's
the time with my father shooting weapons off the side
of the road when I was six. It's my military
training and sleeping with my six It's more than just
(17:02):
a cultural thing. It's actually an extension of how I
protect myself and everybody I love, and by extension, how
we protect America and everything we love about America. So
I get that Texas, but it's also in Colorado. Many
of my friends are that way. So how to take
it from a rational responsible gun ownership and help those
(17:23):
people that have just gone too far? Because I think
most people, if they have a friend that they admire
or respect, appreciate, love, they might take that suicide thought
better from somebody who's also like them culturally. Hey, really,
you're doing okay? We need to Why why don't I
take your weapons instead of the government taking your weapons?
(17:44):
Why don't you have a friend take care of them.
I think that's really important.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Let's go to Bethany, who's in Longmont, Colorado. Bethany, welcome
to the middle Go ahead, Hi.
Speaker 13 (17:55):
Guys, Yes, thank you, I kind of want to build
off the last Gentleman's statement here, and absolutely I can
get behind responsible gun ownership, you know, the need to
protect your family. I grew up in Memphis, which is
a very dangerous city, so I totally understand the need
for handguns for defending your family, you know, even for
rifles for a hunting and things like that. But my
(18:17):
real question that I think bothers me is that I
absolutely do not think that founding Fathers, when writing the
Second Amendment, had any inkling that there would be, you know,
these automatic assault weapons that could shoot hundreds of bullets
a minute and cause mass destruction and be in the
hands of regular citizens, And kind of like the last gentleman,
(18:40):
I feel like any any rational, kind of attempt to
regulate that like excessively dangerous level of weapon being had
by just a regular human for fun is an attack
on all guns, which I personally don't think that any
normal person has any reason to have a weapon that dangerous.
You want to protect your family, sign a handgun will
(19:01):
do the trick. So I just don't understand how we
bridge that gap that that's not the intention of the
Second Amendment, and we're not trying to take your guns away. Yeah,
we're just trying to protect people.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, Bethany, thank you, Thank you for that a lot there, Emmy,
and I know that your organization and you don't take
a particular position on things like an assault weapons ban,
which you know, Joe Biden, the President, has called for nationally,
as we said, it used to exist of between nineteen
ninety four and two thousand and four. There are states,
including this one, that are trying to put in a
ban on the purchase and sale of assault weapons. But
(19:35):
it does get to a core issue that I'm sure
you've thought a lot about, which is the Second Amendment
and how what it really meant back in the day
and what it means today, and how much of a
problem it is that Americans have access to assault weapons
and high capacity magazines.
Speaker 9 (19:51):
Yeah, it's really the You're getting right to the heart
of it. And I appreciate the comments from Robert and Bethany,
and I think there so I'm also not a constitutional scholar,
I'm not an attorney. I'm I'm a physician and researcher.
I think what it's really getting to is how do
we in modern society, as a wonderful chaotic, mixed up country,
(20:13):
which is what I love about America. How do we
recognize where our desires or our fetishes, or our very
strong political views, where do they end when they clash
with somebody else's And how do we have those conversations
and recognizing as Beth and he said, you know, where
is that line between responsible fire our ownership but then
(20:36):
something that maybe is maybe is too extreme? How do
we have that conversation? And we need to be able
to have those conversations in ways that are not demonizing
either side. And I think it is really important that
we listen to the concerns and the perspectives and the
world views and all of it across the spectrum, but
then also recognize, like we live in a complicated, mixed
(20:59):
society and we don't always get exactly what we want.
I mean, compromise is how we also get to a
safer place and as a safer and healthier place, right.
And I think what's sad is that it feels like
in politics today there is no longer any compromise or discussion,
and that we're just getting more and more stuck and
yelling at each other instead of actually thinking about what
(21:21):
works for modern society, or when there.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Is compromise in politics, it just doesn't make the news
because it's not as exciting as a huge fight.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Jeremy, We actually have a lot of comments coming on
social media right now if I give it to that
real quick Jeff on Twitter. Rights a living wage, affordable housing,
and medicare for all that includes mental health services. Happy,
healthy people with a place to call their own rarely
feel the need to shoot each other. Mandate liability insurance
for guns, more dangerous the gun, more expensive insurance. We've
(21:49):
got over three hundred comments so far.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Wow, all right, well keep them coming. You can go
to Listen to the Middle dot com or find us
on social media. Let's go to Dan who's in York,
Pennsylvania on the old fashioned phone. Dan, welcome to the Middle.
What do you think?
Speaker 14 (22:04):
I think we need to talk about the corporate culture? Also,
I think the opioid crisis is caused by drug companies
over promoting and overproducing. I think the tobacco industry was
held responsible for some of what it did by over
promoting cigarettes and the length. I think the gun companies
(22:26):
as a whole are over promoting gun ownership.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So you go after the gun company, gun companies. That's
how you would you would reduce gun violence is to
go after the gun companies in the way that this
country has gone after tobacco or pharma.
Speaker 14 (22:45):
They're over promoting there, They've been promoting in ways that
go after the young people but are far too young
to have gun ownership.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Dan, a great point. Thank you so much. John, take
that to you. What do you think about that, the
power of the gun industry.
Speaker 10 (23:04):
Yeah, yeah, I don't totally disagree. I mean, there's there's
good points in that. I would throw in the entertainment
industry though, in our glorification of yeah, glorification of violence
on a lot of things we do and we just
are blind to that. I don't think it causes it,
but I do think it's a contributing factor to our
cultural psyche here. We have an expert here.
Speaker 9 (23:25):
Yeah, No, I just I wanted to agree with that,
and I think again, part of that cultural change, we
really need to be emphasizing that the decision to own
a firearm is a big one and is a serious
responsibility that people need to take take seriously and get
training and think about storage and appropriate use. In all
of that that it shouldn't just be sort of a
spur of the moment whim decision.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I want to go to Middletown, Connecticut, and Ryan, who
is joining us? Ryan? Go ahead? What do you think?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So?
Speaker 15 (23:55):
I think I grew up in Chicago and worked in
the inner City with kids of all varying degrees of ability,
and one of the things I see a lot is
that the attitudes of their parents become their attitudes early on,
and then they find people that are like minded in
that regard.
Speaker 16 (24:14):
And they build on themselves.
Speaker 15 (24:16):
So I think this is a multi generational issue. It's
like in the military when you go overseas, the first
people we try to make good with is not the adults.
We try to give out treats and little goodies to
the kids so that they see America as a you know,
good country. And that's the same here back here at home.
We have to start with the youth and help them
(24:38):
see guns as something not to be feared.
Speaker 16 (24:41):
But to be respected. You know, It's like a car.
Speaker 15 (24:44):
We have such a culture built up around the car
being dangerous, very you know, you have to go to
all these classes and take all of these different things
and take a test, and you know, pay a bunch
of money for it, and you know we put we
feed that into our ca and all our TV shows
do the same.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah you about the guns, Ryan, Thank you for that. John,
what about that?
Speaker 10 (25:09):
The more experience you have around weapons, the more the better.
The people that I admire most are ones that treat
it with an awesome level of responsibility and respect and
are very aware of how dangerous they are. And so
there it's another show we should talk about a year
of voluntary service in the military.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You know that that caller just said that they grew
up in Chicago, Tolliver, you grew up in Chicago, did
you have did your family have guns?
Speaker 6 (25:39):
Like?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Did did you grow up with that as part of
your part of your upbringing?
Speaker 14 (25:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You know what they did. My family is a military family.
And I just remember distinctly hearing them say over and
over that if we ban gun ownership, that people will
just find a way to get guns. I legally, and
I kind of wanted to bring that to our panel,
like to our guests here, because that's the thing that
I heard over and over and over. This kid, Is
there any literally validity to that to y'all?
Speaker 9 (26:03):
I mean yeah, I mean so yes and no. And
I think to answer your question, what I want to
take this to the bigger issue, which is that we're
dancing around a bunch of different topics that are all
really important, and I hope that they are getting across
the point that there is not one solution to this
because gun violence is a big and messy problem, and
it's suicide, and it's youth violence, particularly in urban areas,
(26:26):
and it's domestic violence and mass shootings and school shootings,
and each of those is going to take a slightly
different approach. So is the problem of illegal gun markets
a real problem, absolutely, And you know what, gun owners
who are not locking guns and cars and guns being
stolen like the gun owners are part of the problem there.
And we need to be talking about responsible storage of
guns and cars and making sure they're locked up. You know,
(26:50):
does that mean that we should just throw up our
hands and say, what does it matter because they'll just
find a gun like, of course not, But you know,
I mean, but I think it's about recognizing that each
of these things we've been talking about tonight may be
effective in some ways. But for example, me talking about
secure storage of guns at home, that is not going
to fix what's going on with a thirteen year old
(27:11):
who's got a bad home situation who's failing school. Like
that kid needs a very different intervention.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well, or the mass shooter that buys the gun the
day before they go and shoot up a school or
something like that. Let's get to another call before we
have to take a quick break. Denise is in Denver, Colorado. Denise,
Welcome to the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Hi, thanks so much so. I volunteer with Mom's Demand Action.
And one of the things I really appreciate that you're
talking about is that it is this myriad of things.
It's this tapestry of answers. It's not one thing. So
I think about legislation, we can have all kinds of legislation.
Secure storage in Colorado is actually part of our legislation,
(27:54):
and that is one thing that can really go across
all community. There are some things that don't necessarily reach
into all communities. But we also have communities that have
like other states, where permitless carry is now the loss
so people don't have to even have ever taken a class.
So even though we say that there should be responsible
gun ownership, there are places where we're actually making that
(28:17):
not be the case. So to me, that is a
big issue. And the fact that I know mental health
and all these things that we talk about, but when
you look at peer nations, all nations have mental health,
all nations have people playing video games, but they are
not having the same kind of gun deaths. And so
I think that's something that we have to be mindful of.
And it is that whole tapestry of things that we
(28:40):
have to do.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Denise, thank you so much for that call. And you
know that is something that comes up after every mass shooting,
is the fact that you know, no other country has
this kind of problem with gun homicides suicides. We are
just much higher than other countries on that score.
Speaker 10 (28:59):
John, There's no doubt that we have a long history
of societal violence and individual violence, and I think we're
the suicide is such a fascinating one. But where I
come down on this is how to take somebody who's innocent,
(29:20):
who's vulnerable, and who is a victim of somebody's either
temporary insanity or violence or evil or all the multitude
of variations that somebody could hurt. How do we have that?
How do we have less of that? And I think
if we look for common ground. There'll be much more
of it if we don't demonize the other side. If
(29:40):
we look at what you're doing, now, what are you're right?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
If you're if you're you're not. If the gun owners
are not demonizing the people that want more regulation, and
vice versa. I want to stand by for a minute
because The Middle is available as a podcast in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you
listen to podcasts and Tolliver. We've been talking broadly about
guns and gun violence, but nothing intensifies this conversation nationally
as much as when a mass shooting takes place.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Yeah, and oftentimes right after a mass shooting takes place,
people who call for stronger gun laws are told now
is not the time for that debate. Listen here to
former Colorado Governor Bill Owens, the last Republican to lead
the state, speaking right after Columbine.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I think that we have to look into society at
what caused these kids to become killers, and it's going
to be a little tougher, unfortunately, than passing or not
passing a few laws.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Notable a Tolliver that just this week, Colorado Democrats passed
a bill through a House committee that would ban the
sale or purchase of assault weapons in the state. And
while they discussed that bill, hundreds of people lined up
to comment and dozens of protesters were outside as well.
We will be back with more of the middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're coming to you
(30:52):
from Colorado Public Radio in Denver as the state prepares
to mark twenty five years since Columbine, and we're asking
you what should be done to reduce gun violence in America.
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can reach out at listen to the miiddle
dot com. We're joined by Emmy Betts, director of the
Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative at the University of Colorado, and
(31:14):
John Brackney, a longtime civic and business leader here in Colorado,
an advocate for responsible gun ownership. And let's get right
back to the phones because they are full. Michael is
in Joliet, Illinois. Michael, go ahead.
Speaker 17 (31:28):
Hell. The first thing I want to mention is that
a lot of my opinion is informed by my having
worked as a prison psychologist for twenty years. I've just
retired in December, and what I've learned is that your
typical criminal cares nothing about gun laws. They know they're illegal,
(31:49):
they know that extended magazines are illegal, they don't care.
They know to converting the gun to fully automatic is illegal.
They don't care. They see it as in this necessary
to Now what gets their attention is if they get
serious consequences, and in Cook County, Illinois, that's typically not
(32:12):
the case, and the relatively recently you could get boot
camp four month sentence for illegal possession of a firearms.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that we
need to enforce current laws. Perfect example the Kyle Riddenhouse case.
He and his partner in crime, Dominant Black, engaged in
(32:34):
an illegal straw weapon purchase a weapon that was ultimately
used to kill two people, wounded nothing in violation of
federal law, no consequence. President Biden's aware of the case.
Supposedly there was a judiciary committee that looked into it.
I haven't heard any results. He's walking around free, his
(32:56):
supporters have made him a millionaire, and he's touting themselves
as a second Amendment.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah. So the issue of the laws. Yeah, Michael, thank you. Amy.
That's that's an issue that I've been reading about in
preparation for this show, is that in many cases, local
police departments in some places don't don't enforce the laws
that are on the books. Is how much of a
problem is that that the laws we do have around
(33:23):
gun regulation aren't being enforced.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Yeah, that's It's a great question and certainly is going
to like when you think about the whole US and
different state laws and local jurisdiction, whether they support them
or not. You know, with the extreme risk protection orders,
for example, we had the issue of Second Amendment sanctuary counties,
where some of those counties were at least saying they
weren't going to enforce them. We've actually seen in Colorado
(33:45):
that some of those self declared counties actually have used
extremist protection orders, which I think is evidence that there
are extreme cases where people want those laws on the books.
But absolutely, when we think about this from as researchers
from public health perspective, we need to be looking at
laws how they're actually implemented, meaning are people aware of
(34:07):
the laws, are they enforced, is there adequate punishment exactly?
Is there are laws applied fairly based on the person.
You know, we spend a lot of time thinking about
things like profiling and so forth, and I think that
the caller earlier from Mom's de mand action was talking
about the potential promise of legislation. Legislation absolutely is a
tool that we should still be talking about. But it's
(34:30):
not just getting a law passed. Ultimately, it is how
is that law used and does it have the intended effect?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
And will it be allowed by the current Supreme Court
as well, which which at the end of the day
is what matters in this case with these laws. Dean
in Minneapolis, Minnesota is with us. Hi Dean, welcome to the.
Speaker 11 (34:50):
Middle, Thank you, and thank you to your panel. And
I want to acknowledge and agree with the cultural things
that have been spoken about. All of my fire on
fire moment, most of my life and all of my
firearms are locked up, and I have been a part
of situations where I've helped friends or children of friends
remove their firearms from their home and times issues. However,
(35:11):
I do think there's legislation and things that can be
done beyond just the cultural things, and as a gun owner,
I'd like to just bring those to bear. I grew
up in Illinois, and there's a firearm Owner's Identification program there,
and I wish that was nationwide. I think legislatively, if
you have a FOID card, you can enact and hold
a lot of the other use light a lot of
(35:33):
the other gun laws that are in place, like red
flag laws, like waiting periods, like straw men purchases. So
if there was a national FOID program, I think that
would be useful. The other thing, when I lived in Richmond, Virginia,
working communications, I worked on the Project Exile program as
a gun owner, where any crime committed using a firearm
(35:56):
became a federal offense, and that criminal, like one of
your earlier callers said, that criminal now goes to a
federal facility rather than to a state facility, And I
think that puts a lot more emphasis on the illegal
use of firearms, as well as the FLOID card supporting
the legal use of fibers.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Let me ask you just one thing real quick, Dean,
which is you know one of the legislative options that's
been talked about is a national assault weapons band. You
do you, as a gun owner, do you want that?
Speaker 11 (36:26):
Well? I own two firearms that would be considered assault rifles.
Both of those are semi automatics. I know people mess
that up all the time. If those firearms were banned,
I would gladly turn them in the reason I hold
them today. They are fun to shoot, but I will
tell you I don't want to sell them and then
end up in the hands of someone who's going to
(36:47):
use them improperly. If those firearms were banned, honestly, I
have no problem turning those in right now. My only
option is to decommission them myself.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Okay, Dean, very interesting, Thank you so much for that call,
and let me get to another one. Here. Lee is
in New Orleans, Louisiana. Lee, go ahead, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 7 (37:06):
Well, very good conversation tonight. Let me start out by
saying it is not repeat it is not the gun
that is the problem. We've touched on a lot of things. UH. Education, responsibility, UH,
the lack of comprehensive mental health in the country. Many
(37:29):
of the things that happen, or because the children or
even young adults haven't been carried along the way responsibly.
You know, parents work in drug abuse, but we the
guy from Juliana Linois hit it on the head in
(37:49):
New Orleans PARISHUT is like Cook County there, the crime
that's that that comes with guns is generally stolen weapons.
It's unslingers on the street, it's dope dealing. Seldom do
we have the issue of uh people responsible. God's hearing.
(38:11):
Gun owners aren't the ones out there shooting people. And
it's not if we magically erase guns from society. Does
anybody on this panel think for a second that angry,
hell bent people are not gonna take out their wrath
with other, you know, with pickaxe of mashety or not
(38:31):
the guns.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Let me take that to the panel.
Speaker 7 (38:33):
And automatic weapons is s silly idea because they're not.
Anybody with automatic weapons pay a premium to possess them
and on, and they're they're very responsible.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Okay, Lee, thank you very much for that call. And
I have to say one of my favorite accents in
the entire United States is it's just such a great accent.
But what about the point that he is making there, John,
which we heard also from our caller Juliet, that you know,
the criminals aren't going to pay attention to the laws
on the books.
Speaker 10 (39:06):
Generally I would concur with those points, but I do
think there's common ground when we don't think there would
be common ground, and he's hit on it a little
bit with the semi versus fully automatic weapon totally different,
and people confuse that that are anti gun, But we
do restrict guns in all sorts of ways. None of
(39:27):
us have a hand grenade in our garage. I hope
none of us have an F sixteen or and then
on a one Abrams tank. At a certain point we
realize some things are just too dangerous, and there is
the Nevada shooting. There is common ground in that when
you have all those semi automatic assault weapons I don't
use that word, but rifles, and at a certain point,
(39:50):
when you can just kill dozens of people randomly in
the audience, there's all sorts of us that took a
pause and said, no, we've got to at least I
didn't know what a bumpstock was, but we should ban that.
And do you really I'm not sure I want to
have an investigation on how many guns somebody has. But
at a certain point there's got to be a red
(40:11):
flag somewhere in that system to say the enough's enough.
This is just too dangerous.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
So let me just ask you Emmy, because we've been
talking a lot this hour, which has been kind of
a surprise about the cultural issues rather than legislative issues
or other things on the issue of guns. But when
you look at the mass shootings that have occurred in
the last ten years, two hundred and fifty five mass
shootings in the US in twenty thirteen, six hundred and
(40:38):
fifty six and twenty twenty three, that's a lot more
so what's going on there that's Is that just a
you think that's a cultural issue, you think that's availability
what's happening?
Speaker 9 (40:48):
I think it's Yeah, it's a complicated question. I think
it's it's about it's all of those things together. There's
also some research coming out showing that an estimated maybe
half of mass shooting are actually related to domestic violence.
So it depends a little bit how you define a
mass shooting. Most mass shootings are not actually the school
shootings that are particularly awful, and as a parent, I
(41:10):
don't even really like to think about. But when we
think about sort of a person who's killing multiple people,
often suicide at the same time, very often it's related
to family violence, domestic violence, which we haven't even touched
on in this hour in terms of thinking about you know,
violence and relationship and what leads to that. And there
is a lot of upstream stuff, you know, whether it's
(41:31):
isolation or loneliness, or mental health or what the often
younger people who are doing mass shootings, what has gotten
them to that point. I also, though I want to
respectfully disagree with that last caller, the gun itself is
part of the problem. I mean, I think we need
to recognize guns are uniquely lethal. That is why people
(41:56):
buy them for protection. People don't have a pickaxe at
home for a person. They have a firearm at home
for protection because they are lethal. If someone attempts suicide
with a gun, they're more likely to die. If someone
attacks a school with a gun versus any other weapon,
more people are going to be seriously injured and killed.
And so I think we need to be able to
have that conversation and say it's not that the gun
(42:19):
the presence of a gun causes someone to do that thing,
but if they are intent on violence, if they decide
to act in a violent way.
Speaker 10 (42:29):
It's going to have far more serious I mean, do
you think I'm a hypocrite to agree with the caller
and you.
Speaker 9 (42:34):
No, I don't, but I think it's just I think
the argument that people sometimes make and I'm not sure
this is what Lee was trying to do, but saying
it's not the guns, stop blaming the guns, Like, I
don't think that that is a fair thing to do. Like,
we have to be able to talk about the fact
that these are lethal weapons that people need to be
We need to be thinking about what it means to
be a responsible gun owner and to recognize that they
(42:57):
cause far more damage than other, uh than other weapons.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
UH.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Let's go to David, who's in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. David, go ahead,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 16 (43:09):
Hi, thank you for shaking my call. So I'm an
ear nurse. I've been in the RS for over a decade,
and I feel like, UH to agree with your current speaker.
I think the issue here really is access to guns.
They are incredibly leadlum for those of you who've never
seen gunshot wounds up close, they are incredibly effective when
even when shot bamateurs, especially especially the innocent bystanders. So
(43:32):
we need to really recognize the lethality of guns, but
also recognize a system that is innately ignoring UH key
aspects that lead to gun violence.
Speaker 11 (43:45):
Uh, we don't.
Speaker 16 (43:47):
We don't effectively fund education, we don't uh utilize resources
to get people out of poverty. And I think we we.
By we, I mean I think too many legislayers capitulate
to the the NRA, even for the most meaningful of legislation.
And it just it breaks my heart because I'm hired
(44:07):
of seeing people who don't need to die. Don I
says this gun violence, So thank you again for taking
my call.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
I really quash it.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Thank you, David and John. Let me ask you. The
NRA he just brought up has lost more than a
million members out of six million at its peak in
twenty eighteen. Its revenue is dropped by more than forty
percent since twenty sixteen. We've heard about the controversy, the
legal troubles. How strong is the gun lobby these days?
Speaker 10 (44:33):
So I'm I would suggest that it's just not the
NRA and Colorado. We have a gun group that I'd
rather not mention my name because I don't think they're
particularly helpful to cun owners who are way more aggressive
than the NRA. And so those private clubs, those private initiatives,
they go after you if you're a Republican and dare
(44:54):
say some of the things I've said today. He ain't
running for office in Colorado unless it's well and you
want and when, So I'm not sure about the nra
IS is important as local gun groups.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
All right, let's get one more call in from Fabio,
who's in Chicago. Fabio, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 18 (45:12):
Go ahead, Hello, how are you? Can you hear me?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
We can hear you. Go ahead?
Speaker 7 (45:18):
All right.
Speaker 18 (45:19):
Well, you know this is something that's really it touched
my life because you know, I was not born and
raised in the Under States. I moved here just in
two thousand and five.
Speaker 14 (45:32):
Right, So when I.
Speaker 18 (45:33):
Listen all these debates, it's just I can't understand, because
you know, I even heard tonight someone saying that the
problem are not the guns.
Speaker 6 (45:44):
Right.
Speaker 18 (45:44):
If you want to solve gun violence, there is nothing
else you can do if not taking away guns from
the hands of the citizens of the common citizens.
Speaker 7 (45:53):
Right, and to do so, you.
Speaker 18 (45:55):
Don't have to, you know, watch so far away, you enemy.
You can watch Canada, you can watch you know, European Genda,
you can watch all the African countries. You can watch
all the countries in the world that don't have the
amount of people that died for gun shot like in
the United States of amic Right, I watched the statistics.
You know, I'm a scientists as a ground, so just
(46:16):
watch the statistics and you understand that the only problem
we got violence is the incredible amount of guns that
are present in the United States of America. I mean,
we have more guns than citizens.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Fabia, thank you for that call. And I'll just go
to you, Emmy with this one thought, which is I've
got a friend who lives in the United Kingdom who's
American and won't bring her children back to the United
States because she worries about school shootings and she does
not there.
Speaker 9 (46:47):
I mean, I get that right. It is a uniquely
American issue, the mass shootings and school shootings. And yes,
there have been attacks in other countries isolated or with
fewer victims or stabbings are so forth. I think I
again come back always to when I'm my work as
(47:08):
an er doctor and wanting to support the health and
well being of every person in front of me. If
we banned guns tomorrow, band the sale of guns tomorrow,
all guns in the United States, and let me be clear,
that's not happening, like it's just not right. There are
more guns than people in the United States right now.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Amazing.
Speaker 9 (47:25):
We're not going to confiscate all of those guns. So
what do we do today and tomorrow to prevent the
injuries and deaths that nobody wants? And that's where I
always end up.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Well, and we will continue our conversation online and you
can call in and leave a message at eight four
four four six four three three five three. But Talliver,
I just want to hear what's coming in online because
you've said hundreds of comments.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Yeah, absolutely, uh TikTok. Comment just says gun violence has
been on a steady decline for a while. Now the
media covers it much more than they used to. That's
why it seems so bad, which kind of runs counter
what you talked about about, you know, an increase of
mass shootings. Jim and Champagne, Illinois says guns are not
all well suited for actual defense. We would all be
better off designing such tools better suited for the task,
(48:05):
like temporary blinding lights, lasers, and wire ties for the risks.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Interesting, All right, well, Ken, you can reach out to
us from Champagne right next to my hometown. Thanks sOliver,
Thank you, and I want to thank my guests, Emmy Betts,
emergency medicine physician and director of the Firearm Injury Prevention
Initiative at the University of Colorado Medical School. Emmy, thank
you so much. Thank you for having me and John Brackney,
a longtime civic and business leader here in Colorado, an
(48:31):
advocate for responsible gun ownership. John, thank you very much as.
Speaker 10 (48:34):
Well Search for Common Ground, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Absolutely, Toliver. What is on tap for next week?
Speaker 3 (48:38):
For next week show, we want to hear your thoughts
about public service. Do you feel a call to serve
your country? What does public service mean to you as
a member of the armed services, as a volunteer, or
even as a politician. You can call us at eight
four four four six four three three five three All
right in at Listen to The Middle dot com and
while you're there, sign up for our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinos Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Joann Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander. Our
technical director is Jason Croft and a special thanks this
week to Colorado Public Radio Jillian Cold Snow, Tyler Bender,
Matt Hurts, Sheridan ash and Stuart vanderweldt our theme music
(49:17):
was composed by Andrew Haig. And we want to thank
Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia, and the more than four hundred
public radio stations that are making it possible for people
across the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Talk to you next week.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson coming to you
this hour from Colorado Public Radio in Denver, and joining
me as always is Tolliver. Hey, Tolliver, Hey, Jeremy.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm not with you in person right now, but I
can confirm Colorado Public Radio has the best snacks in
the game.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
The best snacks I know Nashville they did feed me before.
The show is lovely now. So here's a fun fact
for you, Tolliver, because you know that The Middle is
also available as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Well,
since we started this show last September, a city that
has consistently been at the top of our list for
downloads of the podcast is Denver, Colorado. So here we are,
(00:43):
and we're here as Colorado's prepared to mark twenty five
years since the mass shooting at Columbine High School that'll
be next month. We're going to be asking what should
be done to reduce gun violence in America. We're taking
your calls at eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three to five to three.
In just a moment, but first, last week, we asked
(01:04):
you if it's time for a strong, viable third party
in the United States as we march toward a rematch
between current President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump
in the November election. Here are some of the voicemails
that came in after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Hi, my name is Jeanie. I'm comeing from New Orleans, Louisiana.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
This is Chris Damuels.
Speaker 6 (01:24):
Call him from Newbergh, Indiana.
Speaker 7 (01:27):
Hey, Jeremy, I'm Martie from Jacksonville.
Speaker 6 (01:30):
My name is Jens. I'm calling from Eagle River, Alaska.
How on earth are Donald Trump and Joe Biden are
the only two candidates that can be produced to represent
the people of this great nation the.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Way it's Sam's now.
Speaker 7 (01:47):
If Biden and Trump are running, there's absolutely no way
anyone else is going to win. So if you vote
for one of the third party candidates, it's the dumbest
thing anybody can do.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
So mistake the vote for party candidate, because it just
helps get elected the candidate that you least want.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I will take a third, fourth, fifth, other party whomever.
I don't care. Elmo could run, for Heaven's sake.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I would vote for for Elmo. Thanks so much everyone
who called in you for Elma. So now to our
topic this hour, which is what should be done to
reduce gun violence in America. It was twenty five years
ago next month that the nation was shocked by the
news of a mass shooting at Columbine High School.
Speaker 8 (02:33):
We are following a breaking store today, a shooting at
a high school in Littleton, Colorado, that's near Denver.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Here is what we know so far.
Speaker 8 (02:40):
Witnesses say two gunmen dressed in black trench coats with
black masks open fire at Columbine High School, not lunchtime
in Colorado. They said the gunman went from one area
of the school to another, shooting students as they went.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
At the time, Columbine was the deadliest mass killing at
a K twelve school in American history, but it was
later surpassed by Sandy Hook in twenty twelve, Parkland and
twenty eighteen, and Uvaldi in twenty twenty two, and in
the nearly twenty five years since Columbine, guns and how
to go about regulating them while respecting the Second Amendment
to the Constitution has remained one of the most contentious
(03:17):
debates in America, But is there a middle ground on
this issue? What should be done to reduce gun violence
in America?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three. You
can also email us by going to Listen to the
Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And let's meet our panel here with me in the
studio in Denver. Emmy Betts, emergency physician and director of
the Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative at the University of Colorado. Emmi,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 9 (03:44):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And John Brackney is here as well, a longtime civic
and business leader in Colorado, a veteran Army officer, and
an advocate for responsible gun ownership. John, welcome to you,
all right, Jeremy, So before we get to the phones
and they are starting to light up, Emmy, Columbine was
a mass shooting. It was also a school shooting. But
most of the gun violence that occurs in this country,
(04:06):
and we're talking almost fifty thousand deaths a year, is
neither of those things.
Speaker 9 (04:11):
Right, and thank you for starting off with that. I
think it's incredibly important that when we talk about gun
violence we look at the full picture. So in the
United States as a whole, over half of all gun
deaths are suicide. Here in Colorado, it's over seventy percent
of gun deaths or suicide in the nation as a whole,
so that the majority or suicide followed then by homicide,
(04:31):
usually interpersonal violence, particularly in urban areas. Mass shootings account
for only about one percent of all deaths. I don't
want to discount the incredible psychological toll that they have
on our country, but I think we really need to
move away from thinking about only the mass shootings and
only the things that capture media attention and recognize the
(04:52):
violence that's happening really to all of us and all
of our communities every day, because each of those is
a life loss. Yeah, and people left grieving, and they're
all preventable.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I we'll get to that. But John, in an op
ed for the Denver Post, you wrote that gun owners
are equally distressed over gun violence as non gun owners,
likely more so, That's what you said. So what do
gun owners like you think ought to be done legislatively,
let's say, to reduce gun violence?
Speaker 10 (05:20):
Well, thank you. More important than legislatively is culturally, and
so I think if we approach it in that way.
I do mean it. Gun owners are good, decent people
and it hurts really bad to think about a weapon
that they would own that would be used for ill intent,
and so to reach out to that person culturally, and
(05:41):
that's a hard thing to do. It's probably harder than legislation.
So I'm open to discuss legislation, but I think this
is more of a cultural issue.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
What do you mean, reach out to that person culturally,
reach out to the would be shooter culture?
Speaker 10 (05:52):
No, no, no, to a gun owner gun owners. I mean,
there's just so many guns in America and so many
gun owners in America. Two alienate them and to take
angst and anger out them, I actually think it's self defeating.
I think it's the opposite of what we should be doing.
We should be having conversations like this.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I mean, what about legislatively? Do you think that gun
control laws work?
Speaker 9 (06:13):
So I'm also going to advocate that we shift the
focus a little bit away from legislation. So at the
fire Man Injury Prevention Initiative, we specifically don't do legislative advocacy,
in part because it's so contentious, but more so because
there's so much that can be done through education through interventions.
And I want to second this whole idea of cultural change.
(06:34):
I mean, when we think about the suicide deaths, for example,
many if of those, if not the majority, are among
gun owners. And so if we want to reach populations
of gun owners about how to prevent those suicides, how
to prevent those deaths, we need to be doing in
a way that's bringing them into the conversation rather than
sort of immediate alienation. And so I love the idea
(06:55):
of us maybe tonight as a start trying to find
a way to defind this middle to talk about this
legislation might can be part of the solution, and we
should not be taking it off the table. But I
think we get so caught up in the politics that
we lose sight of all the other things we could
be doing.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Okay, let's go to the phones and Dylan, who's in Lakewood, Colorado? Dylan,
welcome to the middle. What do you think.
Speaker 11 (07:21):
Hither?
Speaker 12 (07:21):
Thanks for having me. I just want to say that
I was a student in Jeffco when Columbine happened, and
this is an issue that's near and dear to my heart.
I'm also a public teacher in Jeffco.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Public Jefferson County. I assume is what you're talking about there.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Correct.
Speaker 12 (07:36):
The issue for guns is as a teacher is a
really interesting one because obviously I'm constantly thinking about that
happening at school or in public places. If we're not
going to talk about legislation, which I hear the panel
talking about, then my question is how do we change
it culturally because there seems to be this huge divide
(08:01):
where we can't even talk amongst ourselves about the issue.
I think if we're not going to go for legislation,
then I think we need to put a ton of
funding into mental health and let's put our money where
our mouth. Our mouths are in terms of saying, if
guns aren't the problem, which there that could be a
whole discussion. But if guns aren't the problem, then where's
(08:23):
the money to culturally go after the issuet?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Well, let me tell me, let me ask that the
panel that question. Thank you Dylan for that call. John. So, yeah,
what did you mean by culturally sure?
Speaker 10 (08:37):
And I mean culturally like an umbrella over mental health issues?
So after Columbine, I was a Narapo County commissioner at
that time, and the South Metro Denver Chamber was integrallly
involved in providing support to not only Jefferson, but Littleton
Public schools where I went and where our daughters went
for fifteen years, once a week, once a month, for
(09:01):
fifteen years. Community leaders gathered together, so mental health, religious leaders,
school city council sheriff's department gathered together to talk about
holistically on how why some people resort to violence. So
we counted on CU the Center for Prevention for Violence,
(09:21):
how to SeeU Dell Elliott's work. And there's risk factors
in all of us, and there's protective factors, and some
people have a lot of protective factors. We're probably examples
of that in this room, have a lot of resources
if we start to go astray, and hopefully our risks
aren't as bad. But that combination, when you don't have
(09:42):
enough of one and I have a lot of others,
lead some people to do some really bad things in life,
including violence, And so I think we should take a
really holistic effort to try to minimize all sorts of violence.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Well, so what about something like red flag laws that
would fall under that EMI.
Speaker 9 (09:59):
Yeah, thank you Dylan for your thoughts. So when we
talk about risk factors and also protective factors. I think
maybe the number one thing for when we think about
suicide risk, particularly among teens who who are also at
risk of hurting other people, is access to guns. So
if there's one thing from tonight that I would love
people to take away, it's that if you have guns
(10:20):
in your home, they should be stored so they are
not accessible to the people who shouldn't be accessing them.
And I would argue that includes little kids, but also
teenagers because they have crazy, impulsive emotions. They also should
be protected from theft and so forth. And someone who's
going through a bad divorce, substance abuse, depression, etc. Also
Should not have access to guns. And so that's the
(10:42):
cultural change that we need to get to. And I
would argue, if you think about, for example, what we
did with things like friends that don't love friends, or
I've drunk or right. So some of that might have
been legislation, and some of it might have been penalties
or incentives, but a lot of it was things like
broad media campaigns. And that is actually coming, it's being
(11:04):
worked on. I think we're going to be seeing more
and more around secure storage in the year to come.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Well, yeah, And let me just ask you briefly, John,
do your friends who are gun owners do they store
their weapons safely? Securely?
Speaker 10 (11:15):
It's probably across the board, like the rest of humanity.
I will tell you, though, that I did. We have
two little girls, and after they were not just a
little crawling around, my guns were very weapons were very
well protected. And they still are because I really don't
feel like I have a threat towards myself or my home.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
You know, Tolliver, it's easy to forget that we did,
for a time have a ban on so called assault
weapons in this country.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah, Jeremy, here's former President Bill Clinton speaking in nineteen
ninety four when he signed a National Assault Weapons Band
into law.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Will this solve all the problems in America? No, this
is a puzzle. We're trying to fill in the puzzle
with a crime bill. But I'm telling you.
Speaker 8 (11:56):
This is this is an amazing It's amazing to me
that we even have to have this.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I mean, how long are we going to let this
go on? Well, that assault weapons ban only went on
for ten years. It expired in two thousand and four
and was not renewed. I want to remind our podcast
listeners if you are a big fan of the podcast,
please rate the podcasts and then get your friends to
rate the podcast. How many stars, Tolliver, five stars, five stars.
(12:21):
That's her cousins, your mom, all of them. We'll be
back with more of the Middle. This is the Middle
on Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle, and this
hour we're asking you what should be done to reduce
(12:43):
gun violence? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media, which a lot of people are
doing right now.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
And we are joined by Emmy Betts, an emergency physician
and director of the Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative at the
University of Colorado, and John Brackne, longtime civic and business
leader here in Colorado, a veteran Army officer and an
advocate for responsible gun ownership. Before we get back to
the phones Emmy Bets. Suicide, as we said, is the
leading cause of gun related deaths. Almost twenty seven thousand
(13:16):
Americans died by suicide using a firearm in twenty twenty two,
which is the most recent year for figures. What have
you learned from your research about the best way to
address that problem?
Speaker 9 (13:27):
Yeah, thanks for asking. So it's really important to emphasize
that suicide is preventable. Yes, people need access to mental
health care, substitute abuse treatment, et cetera, sort of the
bigger picture of what it is that's going to help
them get through their mental health crisis. But while they're
getting that treatment, it's incredibly important that they not have
access to lethal means, by which I mean anything that
(13:50):
can be used to die by suicide. Firearms are the
most lethal method of suicide. About ninety percent of the
time they result in death, which is why we talk
about specific reducing access to firearms during times of suicide risk.
And when I say that, I mean generally temporary and
voluntary changes. So it's about engaging the adult who's at
(14:10):
risk themselves and their family in making decisions about storing
guns differently so that the person doesn't have access. We
know that periods of suicidality can be fairly brief and impulsive,
and so if you can get someone through even that
one day of risk, the likelihood that they will die
is much much lower. People don't just substitute another method,
(14:31):
and even if they do, if they can't get access
to the gun, it's far more likely that they'll survive.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Although if it's a suicide we're talking about, it's quite
possible that they would be the one that has the
access to the gun, to their own gun.
Speaker 9 (14:43):
So I work as an er doctor. I care for
lots of people with suicide risk. The conversation I have
with them is about, while you're getting better, can someone
else in your home take control of the weapons. So,
for example, change the past coode on your safe so
that you can't get to it, but your wife or
who else still can. Can you temporarily move it out
of the home until you're feeling better, And so it's
(15:06):
a conversation with them about for themselves no longer having access.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Let's go to Robert, who's in Houston, Texas. Robert, welcome
to the middle. What do you think can be done
to reduce gun violence?
Speaker 5 (15:19):
Well, unfortunately, I don't have a I don't have an
all expansive answer to that question, but I think the
first step before we can even have just an open
and honest discussion with the entire country about it is,
as you noted, I'm in Texas. I mean, I'm in
(15:39):
the quote unquote ground zero of gun culture. I mean
nothing against responsible gun owners or hunters or anyone just
by virtue of being a gun owner or owning more
than one gun. But it just people really take it on,
is like it's not just a political issue, it's part
of their cultural identity. I mean like, if you're making
(16:03):
any noise towards gun control, they perceive it as not
just the policy discussion, but they're basically attacking them directly,
and families directly, and their ways of life directly. And yes,
when they really fetishize gun ownership to the point of
you know, t sets let's say, you know, my second
(16:24):
car is my fifteen or multi Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Robert, I think we've got we've got your point, the
fetishization of guns and how people really see them as
part of their core. John to you on that.
Speaker 10 (16:38):
So, I hope I'm not as far as fetishing, but
I am one of those folks that not only identify
with it culturally, it's in some ways and part of
its training. It's an extension of my core being. It's
the time with my father shooting weapons off the side
of the road when I was six. It's my military
training and sleeping with my six It's more than just
(17:02):
a cultural thing. It's actually an extension of how I
protect myself and everybody I love, and by extension, how
we protect America and everything we love about America. So
I get that Texas, but it's also in Colorado. Many
of my friends are that way. So how to take
it from a rational responsible gun ownership and help those
(17:23):
people that have just gone too far? Because I think
most people, if they have a friend that they admire
or respect, appreciate, love, they might take that suicide thought
better from somebody who's also like them culturally. Hey, really,
you're doing okay? We need to Why why don't I
take your weapons instead of the government taking your weapons?
(17:44):
Why don't you have a friend take care of them.
I think that's really important.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Let's go to Bethany, who's in Longmont, Colorado. Bethany, welcome
to the middle Go ahead, Hi.
Speaker 13 (17:55):
Guys, Yes, thank you, I kind of want to build
off the last Gentleman's statement here, and absolutely I can
get behind responsible gun ownership, you know, the need to
protect your family. I grew up in Memphis, which is
a very dangerous city, so I totally understand the need
for handguns for defending your family, you know, even for
rifles for a hunting and things like that. But my
(18:17):
real question that I think bothers me is that I
absolutely do not think that founding Fathers, when writing the
Second Amendment, had any inkling that there would be, you know,
these automatic assault weapons that could shoot hundreds of bullets
a minute and cause mass destruction and be in the
hands of regular citizens, And kind of like the last gentleman,
(18:40):
I feel like any any rational, kind of attempt to
regulate that like excessively dangerous level of weapon being had
by just a regular human for fun is an attack
on all guns, which I personally don't think that any
normal person has any reason to have a weapon that dangerous.
You want to protect your family, sign a handgun will
(19:01):
do the trick. So I just don't understand how we
bridge that gap that that's not the intention of the
Second Amendment, and we're not trying to take your guns away. Yeah,
we're just trying to protect people.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, Bethany, thank you, Thank you for that a lot there, Emmy,
and I know that your organization and you don't take
a particular position on things like an assault weapons ban,
which you know, Joe Biden, the President, has called for nationally,
as we said, it used to exist of between nineteen
ninety four and two thousand and four. There are states,
including this one, that are trying to put in a
ban on the purchase and sale of assault weapons. But
(19:35):
it does get to a core issue that I'm sure
you've thought a lot about, which is the Second Amendment
and how what it really meant back in the day
and what it means today, and how much of a
problem it is that Americans have access to assault weapons
and high capacity magazines.
Speaker 9 (19:51):
Yeah, it's really the You're getting right to the heart
of it. And I appreciate the comments from Robert and Bethany,
and I think there so I'm also not a constitutional scholar,
I'm not an attorney. I'm I'm a physician and researcher.
I think what it's really getting to is how do
we in modern society, as a wonderful chaotic, mixed up country,
(20:13):
which is what I love about America. How do we
recognize where our desires or our fetishes, or our very
strong political views, where do they end when they clash
with somebody else's And how do we have those conversations
and recognizing as Beth and he said, you know, where
is that line between responsible fire our ownership but then
(20:36):
something that maybe is maybe is too extreme? How do
we have that conversation? And we need to be able
to have those conversations in ways that are not demonizing
either side. And I think it is really important that
we listen to the concerns and the perspectives and the
world views and all of it across the spectrum, but
then also recognize, like we live in a complicated, mixed
(20:59):
society and we don't always get exactly what we want.
I mean, compromise is how we also get to a
safer place and as a safer and healthier place, right.
And I think what's sad is that it feels like
in politics today there is no longer any compromise or discussion,
and that we're just getting more and more stuck and
yelling at each other instead of actually thinking about what
(21:21):
works for modern society, or when there.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Is compromise in politics, it just doesn't make the news
because it's not as exciting as a huge fight.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Jeremy, We actually have a lot of comments coming on
social media right now if I give it to that
real quick Jeff on Twitter. Rights a living wage, affordable housing,
and medicare for all that includes mental health services. Happy,
healthy people with a place to call their own rarely
feel the need to shoot each other. Mandate liability insurance
for guns, more dangerous the gun, more expensive insurance. We've
(21:49):
got over three hundred comments so far.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Wow, all right, well keep them coming. You can go
to Listen to the Middle dot com or find us
on social media. Let's go to Dan who's in York,
Pennsylvania on the old fashioned phone. Dan, welcome to the Middle.
What do you think?
Speaker 14 (22:04):
I think we need to talk about the corporate culture? Also,
I think the opioid crisis is caused by drug companies
over promoting and overproducing. I think the tobacco industry was
held responsible for some of what it did by over
promoting cigarettes and the length. I think the gun companies
(22:26):
as a whole are over promoting gun ownership.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So you go after the gun company, gun companies. That's
how you would you would reduce gun violence is to
go after the gun companies in the way that this
country has gone after tobacco or pharma.
Speaker 14 (22:45):
They're over promoting there, They've been promoting in ways that
go after the young people but are far too young
to have gun ownership.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Dan, a great point. Thank you so much. John, take
that to you. What do you think about that, the
power of the gun industry.
Speaker 10 (23:04):
Yeah, yeah, I don't totally disagree. I mean, there's there's
good points in that. I would throw in the entertainment
industry though, in our glorification of yeah, glorification of violence
on a lot of things we do and we just
are blind to that. I don't think it causes it,
but I do think it's a contributing factor to our
cultural psyche here. We have an expert here.
Speaker 9 (23:25):
Yeah, No, I just I wanted to agree with that,
and I think again, part of that cultural change, we
really need to be emphasizing that the decision to own
a firearm is a big one and is a serious
responsibility that people need to take take seriously and get
training and think about storage and appropriate use. In all
of that that it shouldn't just be sort of a
spur of the moment whim decision.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I want to go to Middletown, Connecticut, and Ryan, who
is joining us? Ryan? Go ahead? What do you think?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So?
Speaker 15 (23:55):
I think I grew up in Chicago and worked in
the inner City with kids of all varying degrees of ability,
and one of the things I see a lot is
that the attitudes of their parents become their attitudes early on,
and then they find people that are like minded in
that regard.
Speaker 16 (24:14):
And they build on themselves.
Speaker 15 (24:16):
So I think this is a multi generational issue. It's
like in the military when you go overseas, the first
people we try to make good with is not the adults.
We try to give out treats and little goodies to
the kids so that they see America as a you know,
good country. And that's the same here back here at home.
We have to start with the youth and help them
(24:38):
see guns as something not to be feared.
Speaker 16 (24:41):
But to be respected. You know, It's like a car.
Speaker 15 (24:44):
We have such a culture built up around the car
being dangerous, very you know, you have to go to
all these classes and take all of these different things
and take a test, and you know, pay a bunch
of money for it, and you know we put we
feed that into our ca and all our TV shows
do the same.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah you about the guns, Ryan, Thank you for that. John,
what about that?
Speaker 10 (25:09):
The more experience you have around weapons, the more the better.
The people that I admire most are ones that treat
it with an awesome level of responsibility and respect and
are very aware of how dangerous they are. And so
there it's another show we should talk about a year
of voluntary service in the military.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You know that that caller just said that they grew
up in Chicago, Tolliver, you grew up in Chicago, did
you have did your family have guns?
Speaker 6 (25:39):
Like?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Did did you grow up with that as part of
your part of your upbringing?
Speaker 14 (25:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You know what they did. My family is a military family.
And I just remember distinctly hearing them say over and
over that if we ban gun ownership, that people will
just find a way to get guns. I legally, and
I kind of wanted to bring that to our panel,
like to our guests here, because that's the thing that
I heard over and over and over. This kid, Is
there any literally validity to that to y'all?
Speaker 9 (26:03):
I mean yeah, I mean so yes and no. And
I think to answer your question, what I want to
take this to the bigger issue, which is that we're
dancing around a bunch of different topics that are all
really important, and I hope that they are getting across
the point that there is not one solution to this
because gun violence is a big and messy problem, and
it's suicide, and it's youth violence, particularly in urban areas,
(26:26):
and it's domestic violence and mass shootings and school shootings,
and each of those is going to take a slightly
different approach. So is the problem of illegal gun markets
a real problem, absolutely, And you know what, gun owners
who are not locking guns and cars and guns being
stolen like the gun owners are part of the problem there.
And we need to be talking about responsible storage of
guns and cars and making sure they're locked up. You know,
(26:50):
does that mean that we should just throw up our
hands and say, what does it matter because they'll just
find a gun like, of course not, But you know,
I mean, but I think it's about recognizing that each
of these things we've been talking about tonight may be
effective in some ways. But for example, me talking about
secure storage of guns at home, that is not going
to fix what's going on with a thirteen year old
(27:11):
who's got a bad home situation who's failing school. Like
that kid needs a very different intervention.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well, or the mass shooter that buys the gun the
day before they go and shoot up a school or
something like that. Let's get to another call before we
have to take a quick break. Denise is in Denver, Colorado. Denise,
Welcome to the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Hi, thanks so much so. I volunteer with Mom's Demand Action.
And one of the things I really appreciate that you're
talking about is that it is this myriad of things.
It's this tapestry of answers. It's not one thing. So
I think about legislation, we can have all kinds of legislation.
Secure storage in Colorado is actually part of our legislation,
(27:54):
and that is one thing that can really go across
all community. There are some things that don't necessarily reach
into all communities. But we also have communities that have
like other states, where permitless carry is now the loss
so people don't have to even have ever taken a class.
So even though we say that there should be responsible
gun ownership, there are places where we're actually making that
(28:17):
not be the case. So to me, that is a
big issue. And the fact that I know mental health
and all these things that we talk about, but when
you look at peer nations, all nations have mental health,
all nations have people playing video games, but they are
not having the same kind of gun deaths. And so
I think that's something that we have to be mindful of.
And it is that whole tapestry of things that we
(28:40):
have to do.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Denise, thank you so much for that call. And you
know that is something that comes up after every mass shooting,
is the fact that you know, no other country has
this kind of problem with gun homicides suicides. We are
just much higher than other countries on that score.
Speaker 10 (28:59):
John, There's no doubt that we have a long history
of societal violence and individual violence, and I think we're
the suicide is such a fascinating one. But where I
come down on this is how to take somebody who's innocent,
(29:20):
who's vulnerable, and who is a victim of somebody's either
temporary insanity or violence or evil or all the multitude
of variations that somebody could hurt. How do we have that?
How do we have less of that? And I think
if we look for common ground. There'll be much more
of it if we don't demonize the other side. If
(29:40):
we look at what you're doing, now, what are you're right?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
If you're if you're you're not. If the gun owners
are not demonizing the people that want more regulation, and
vice versa. I want to stand by for a minute
because The Middle is available as a podcast in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you
listen to podcasts and Tolliver. We've been talking broadly about
guns and gun violence, but nothing intensifies this conversation nationally
as much as when a mass shooting takes place.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Yeah, and oftentimes right after a mass shooting takes place,
people who call for stronger gun laws are told now
is not the time for that debate. Listen here to
former Colorado Governor Bill Owens, the last Republican to lead
the state, speaking right after Columbine.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I think that we have to look into society at
what caused these kids to become killers, and it's going
to be a little tougher, unfortunately, than passing or not
passing a few laws.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Notable a Tolliver that just this week, Colorado Democrats passed
a bill through a House committee that would ban the
sale or purchase of assault weapons in the state. And
while they discussed that bill, hundreds of people lined up
to comment and dozens of protesters were outside as well.
We will be back with more of the middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're coming to you
(30:52):
from Colorado Public Radio in Denver as the state prepares
to mark twenty five years since Columbine, and we're asking
you what should be done to reduce gun violence in America.
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can reach out at listen to the miiddle
dot com. We're joined by Emmy Betts, director of the
Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative at the University of Colorado, and
(31:14):
John Brackney, a longtime civic and business leader here in Colorado,
an advocate for responsible gun ownership. And let's get right
back to the phones because they are full. Michael is
in Joliet, Illinois. Michael, go ahead.
Speaker 17 (31:28):
Hell. The first thing I want to mention is that
a lot of my opinion is informed by my having
worked as a prison psychologist for twenty years. I've just
retired in December, and what I've learned is that your
typical criminal cares nothing about gun laws. They know they're illegal,
(31:49):
they know that extended magazines are illegal, they don't care.
They know to converting the gun to fully automatic is illegal.
They don't care. They see it as in this necessary
to Now what gets their attention is if they get
serious consequences, and in Cook County, Illinois, that's typically not
(32:12):
the case, and the relatively recently you could get boot
camp four month sentence for illegal possession of a firearms.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that we
need to enforce current laws. Perfect example the Kyle Riddenhouse case.
He and his partner in crime, Dominant Black, engaged in
(32:34):
an illegal straw weapon purchase a weapon that was ultimately
used to kill two people, wounded nothing in violation of
federal law, no consequence. President Biden's aware of the case.
Supposedly there was a judiciary committee that looked into it.
I haven't heard any results. He's walking around free, his
(32:56):
supporters have made him a millionaire, and he's touting themselves
as a second Amendment.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah. So the issue of the laws. Yeah, Michael, thank you. Amy.
That's that's an issue that I've been reading about in
preparation for this show, is that in many cases, local
police departments in some places don't don't enforce the laws
that are on the books. Is how much of a
problem is that that the laws we do have around
(33:23):
gun regulation aren't being enforced.
Speaker 9 (33:25):
Yeah, that's It's a great question and certainly is going
to like when you think about the whole US and
different state laws and local jurisdiction, whether they support them
or not. You know, with the extreme risk protection orders,
for example, we had the issue of Second Amendment sanctuary counties,
where some of those counties were at least saying they
weren't going to enforce them. We've actually seen in Colorado
(33:45):
that some of those self declared counties actually have used
extremist protection orders, which I think is evidence that there
are extreme cases where people want those laws on the books.
But absolutely, when we think about this from as researchers
from public health perspective, we need to be looking at
laws how they're actually implemented, meaning are people aware of
(34:07):
the laws, are they enforced, is there adequate punishment exactly?
Is there are laws applied fairly based on the person.
You know, we spend a lot of time thinking about
things like profiling and so forth, and I think that
the caller earlier from Mom's de mand action was talking
about the potential promise of legislation. Legislation absolutely is a
tool that we should still be talking about. But it's
(34:30):
not just getting a law passed. Ultimately, it is how
is that law used and does it have the intended effect?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
And will it be allowed by the current Supreme Court
as well, which which at the end of the day
is what matters in this case with these laws. Dean
in Minneapolis, Minnesota is with us. Hi Dean, welcome to the.
Speaker 11 (34:50):
Middle, Thank you, and thank you to your panel. And
I want to acknowledge and agree with the cultural things
that have been spoken about. All of my fire on
fire moment, most of my life and all of my
firearms are locked up, and I have been a part
of situations where I've helped friends or children of friends
remove their firearms from their home and times issues. However,
(35:11):
I do think there's legislation and things that can be
done beyond just the cultural things, and as a gun owner,
I'd like to just bring those to bear. I grew
up in Illinois, and there's a firearm Owner's Identification program there,
and I wish that was nationwide. I think legislatively, if
you have a FOID card, you can enact and hold
a lot of the other use light a lot of
(35:33):
the other gun laws that are in place, like red
flag laws, like waiting periods, like straw men purchases. So
if there was a national FOID program, I think that
would be useful. The other thing, when I lived in Richmond, Virginia,
working communications, I worked on the Project Exile program as
a gun owner, where any crime committed using a firearm
(35:56):
became a federal offense, and that criminal, like one of
your earlier callers said, that criminal now goes to a
federal facility rather than to a state facility, And I
think that puts a lot more emphasis on the illegal
use of firearms, as well as the FLOID card supporting
the legal use of fibers.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Let me ask you just one thing real quick, Dean,
which is you know one of the legislative options that's
been talked about is a national assault weapons band. You
do you, as a gun owner, do you want that?
Speaker 11 (36:26):
Well? I own two firearms that would be considered assault rifles.
Both of those are semi automatics. I know people mess
that up all the time. If those firearms were banned,
I would gladly turn them in the reason I hold
them today. They are fun to shoot, but I will
tell you I don't want to sell them and then
end up in the hands of someone who's going to
(36:47):
use them improperly. If those firearms were banned, honestly, I
have no problem turning those in right now. My only
option is to decommission them myself.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Okay, Dean, very interesting, Thank you so much for that call,
and let me get to another one. Here. Lee is
in New Orleans, Louisiana. Lee, go ahead, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 7 (37:06):
Well, very good conversation tonight. Let me start out by
saying it is not repeat it is not the gun
that is the problem. We've touched on a lot of things. UH. Education, responsibility, UH,
the lack of comprehensive mental health in the country. Many
(37:29):
of the things that happen, or because the children or
even young adults haven't been carried along the way responsibly.
You know, parents work in drug abuse, but we the
guy from Juliana Linois hit it on the head in
(37:49):
New Orleans PARISHUT is like Cook County there, the crime
that's that that comes with guns is generally stolen weapons.
It's unslingers on the street, it's dope dealing. Seldom do
we have the issue of uh people responsible. God's hearing.
(38:11):
Gun owners aren't the ones out there shooting people. And
it's not if we magically erase guns from society. Does
anybody on this panel think for a second that angry,
hell bent people are not gonna take out their wrath
with other, you know, with pickaxe of mashety or not
(38:31):
the guns.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Let me take that to the panel.
Speaker 7 (38:33):
And automatic weapons is s silly idea because they're not.
Anybody with automatic weapons pay a premium to possess them
and on, and they're they're very responsible.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Okay, Lee, thank you very much for that call. And
I have to say one of my favorite accents in
the entire United States is it's just such a great accent.
But what about the point that he is making there, John,
which we heard also from our caller Juliet, that you know,
the criminals aren't going to pay attention to the laws
on the books.
Speaker 10 (39:06):
Generally I would concur with those points, but I do
think there's common ground when we don't think there would
be common ground, and he's hit on it a little
bit with the semi versus fully automatic weapon totally different,
and people confuse that that are anti gun, But we
do restrict guns in all sorts of ways. None of
(39:27):
us have a hand grenade in our garage. I hope
none of us have an F sixteen or and then
on a one Abrams tank. At a certain point we
realize some things are just too dangerous, and there is
the Nevada shooting. There is common ground in that when
you have all those semi automatic assault weapons I don't
use that word, but rifles, and at a certain point,
(39:50):
when you can just kill dozens of people randomly in
the audience, there's all sorts of us that took a
pause and said, no, we've got to at least I
didn't know what a bumpstock was, but we should ban that.
And do you really I'm not sure I want to
have an investigation on how many guns somebody has. But
at a certain point there's got to be a red
(40:11):
flag somewhere in that system to say the enough's enough.
This is just too dangerous.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
So let me just ask you Emmy, because we've been
talking a lot this hour, which has been kind of
a surprise about the cultural issues rather than legislative issues
or other things on the issue of guns. But when
you look at the mass shootings that have occurred in
the last ten years, two hundred and fifty five mass
shootings in the US in twenty thirteen, six hundred and
(40:38):
fifty six and twenty twenty three, that's a lot more
so what's going on there that's Is that just a
you think that's a cultural issue, you think that's availability
what's happening?
Speaker 9 (40:48):
I think it's Yeah, it's a complicated question. I think
it's it's about it's all of those things together. There's
also some research coming out showing that an estimated maybe
half of mass shooting are actually related to domestic violence.
So it depends a little bit how you define a
mass shooting. Most mass shootings are not actually the school
shootings that are particularly awful, and as a parent, I
(41:10):
don't even really like to think about. But when we
think about sort of a person who's killing multiple people,
often suicide at the same time, very often it's related
to family violence, domestic violence, which we haven't even touched
on in this hour in terms of thinking about you know,
violence and relationship and what leads to that. And there
is a lot of upstream stuff, you know, whether it's
(41:31):
isolation or loneliness, or mental health or what the often
younger people who are doing mass shootings, what has gotten
them to that point. I also, though I want to
respectfully disagree with that last caller, the gun itself is
part of the problem. I mean, I think we need
to recognize guns are uniquely lethal. That is why people
(41:56):
buy them for protection. People don't have a pickaxe at
home for a person. They have a firearm at home
for protection because they are lethal. If someone attempts suicide
with a gun, they're more likely to die. If someone
attacks a school with a gun versus any other weapon,
more people are going to be seriously injured and killed.
And so I think we need to be able to
have that conversation and say it's not that the gun
(42:19):
the presence of a gun causes someone to do that thing,
but if they are intent on violence, if they decide
to act in a violent way.
Speaker 10 (42:29):
It's going to have far more serious I mean, do
you think I'm a hypocrite to agree with the caller
and you.
Speaker 9 (42:34):
No, I don't, but I think it's just I think
the argument that people sometimes make and I'm not sure
this is what Lee was trying to do, but saying
it's not the guns, stop blaming the guns, Like, I
don't think that that is a fair thing to do. Like,
we have to be able to talk about the fact
that these are lethal weapons that people need to be
We need to be thinking about what it means to
be a responsible gun owner and to recognize that they
(42:57):
cause far more damage than other, uh than other weapons.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
UH.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Let's go to David, who's in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. David, go ahead,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 16 (43:09):
Hi, thank you for shaking my call. So I'm an
ear nurse. I've been in the RS for over a decade,
and I feel like, UH to agree with your current speaker.
I think the issue here really is access to guns.
They are incredibly leadlum for those of you who've never
seen gunshot wounds up close, they are incredibly effective when
even when shot bamateurs, especially especially the innocent bystanders. So
(43:32):
we need to really recognize the lethality of guns, but
also recognize a system that is innately ignoring UH key
aspects that lead to gun violence.
Speaker 11 (43:45):
Uh, we don't.
Speaker 16 (43:47):
We don't effectively fund education, we don't uh utilize resources
to get people out of poverty. And I think we we.
By we, I mean I think too many legislayers capitulate
to the the NRA, even for the most meaningful of legislation.
And it just it breaks my heart because I'm hired
(44:07):
of seeing people who don't need to die. Don I
says this gun violence, So thank you again for taking
my call.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
I really quash it.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Thank you, David and John. Let me ask you. The
NRA he just brought up has lost more than a
million members out of six million at its peak in
twenty eighteen. Its revenue is dropped by more than forty
percent since twenty sixteen. We've heard about the controversy, the
legal troubles. How strong is the gun lobby these days?
Speaker 10 (44:33):
So I'm I would suggest that it's just not the
NRA and Colorado. We have a gun group that I'd
rather not mention my name because I don't think they're
particularly helpful to cun owners who are way more aggressive
than the NRA. And so those private clubs, those private initiatives,
they go after you if you're a Republican and dare
(44:54):
say some of the things I've said today. He ain't
running for office in Colorado unless it's well and you
want and when, So I'm not sure about the nra
IS is important as local gun groups.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
All right, let's get one more call in from Fabio,
who's in Chicago. Fabio, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 18 (45:12):
Go ahead, Hello, how are you? Can you hear me?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
We can hear you. Go ahead?
Speaker 7 (45:18):
All right.
Speaker 18 (45:19):
Well, you know this is something that's really it touched
my life because you know, I was not born and
raised in the Under States. I moved here just in
two thousand and five.
Speaker 14 (45:32):
Right, So when I.
Speaker 18 (45:33):
Listen all these debates, it's just I can't understand, because
you know, I even heard tonight someone saying that the
problem are not the guns.
Speaker 6 (45:44):
Right.
Speaker 18 (45:44):
If you want to solve gun violence, there is nothing
else you can do if not taking away guns from
the hands of the citizens of the common citizens.
Speaker 7 (45:53):
Right, and to do so, you.
Speaker 18 (45:55):
Don't have to, you know, watch so far away, you enemy.
You can watch Canada, you can watch you know, European Genda,
you can watch all the African countries. You can watch
all the countries in the world that don't have the
amount of people that died for gun shot like in
the United States of amic Right, I watched the statistics.
You know, I'm a scientists as a ground, so just
(46:16):
watch the statistics and you understand that the only problem
we got violence is the incredible amount of guns that
are present in the United States of America. I mean,
we have more guns than citizens.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Fabia, thank you for that call. And I'll just go
to you, Emmy with this one thought, which is I've
got a friend who lives in the United Kingdom who's
American and won't bring her children back to the United
States because she worries about school shootings and she does
not there.
Speaker 9 (46:47):
I mean, I get that right. It is a uniquely
American issue, the mass shootings and school shootings. And yes,
there have been attacks in other countries isolated or with
fewer victims or stabbings are so forth. I think I
again come back always to when I'm my work as
(47:08):
an er doctor and wanting to support the health and
well being of every person in front of me. If
we banned guns tomorrow, band the sale of guns tomorrow,
all guns in the United States, and let me be clear,
that's not happening, like it's just not right. There are
more guns than people in the United States right now.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Amazing.
Speaker 9 (47:25):
We're not going to confiscate all of those guns. So
what do we do today and tomorrow to prevent the
injuries and deaths that nobody wants? And that's where I
always end up.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Well, and we will continue our conversation online and you
can call in and leave a message at eight four
four four six four three three five three. But Talliver,
I just want to hear what's coming in online because
you've said hundreds of comments.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Yeah, absolutely, uh TikTok. Comment just says gun violence has
been on a steady decline for a while. Now the
media covers it much more than they used to. That's
why it seems so bad, which kind of runs counter
what you talked about about, you know, an increase of
mass shootings. Jim and Champagne, Illinois says guns are not
all well suited for actual defense. We would all be
better off designing such tools better suited for the task,
(48:05):
like temporary blinding lights, lasers, and wire ties for the risks.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Interesting, All right, well, Ken, you can reach out to
us from Champagne right next to my hometown. Thanks sOliver,
Thank you, and I want to thank my guests, Emmy Betts,
emergency medicine physician and director of the Firearm Injury Prevention
Initiative at the University of Colorado Medical School. Emmy, thank
you so much. Thank you for having me and John Brackney,
a longtime civic and business leader here in Colorado, an
(48:31):
advocate for responsible gun ownership. John, thank you very much as.
Speaker 10 (48:34):
Well Search for Common Ground, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Absolutely, Toliver. What is on tap for next week?
Speaker 3 (48:38):
For next week show, we want to hear your thoughts
about public service. Do you feel a call to serve
your country? What does public service mean to you as
a member of the armed services, as a volunteer, or
even as a politician. You can call us at eight
four four four six four three three five three All
right in at Listen to The Middle dot com and
while you're there, sign up for our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinos Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Joann Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander. Our
technical director is Jason Croft and a special thanks this
week to Colorado Public Radio Jillian Cold Snow, Tyler Bender,
Matt Hurts, Sheridan ash and Stuart vanderweldt our theme music
(49:17):
was composed by Andrew Haig. And we want to thank
Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia, and the more than four hundred
public radio stations that are making it possible for people
across the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Talk to you next week.
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