April 13, 2024 • 43 mins
Cindy Stulberg discusses strategies on how to improve relationships, feel better and even beat depression. Her expertise in helping individuals navigate life transitions, overcome social isolation, and nurture relationships has made her a sought-after speaker and writer. With a warm and compassionate approach, Cindy provides valuable insights into the complexities of emotions and moods, shedding light on how they impact our well-being. Her work is deeply rooted in practical strategies that enhance emotional understanding and foster meaningful connections.
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In this episode, you will be able to:
- Navigate life transitions and grief with resilience and grace
- Discover effective strategies to overcome social isolation and cultivate meaningful connections
- Learn how interpersonal psychotherapy can provide a path to healing from depression
- Master the art of building and improving personal relationships
- Uncover the key differences between feelings and moods for a deeper understanding of emotional well-being
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
By labeling your feelings, trying to understand them, trying to
express them in a constructive way, you're going to really
avoid a lot of fighting and a lot of arguing
and conflict.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
(00:44):
have instead of what we do. We think things that
hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We
(01:19):
hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for
joining us. Our guest on this episode is Cindy Goodman Stallberg.
She's an internationally respected psychologist and director for the Institute
of Interpersonal Psychotherapy. She's provided psychological assessment and counseling for
individuals couples, groups and families for over thirty five years.
(01:41):
Her book is Feeling Better, Beat Depression and Improve Your
Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Hi, Cindy, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Hi. Thank you very much for having me on today
and giving me the opportunity to talk to you and
your listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
My pleasure. Your book is called Feeling Better, Beat Depression
and Improve Your Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy, and we will
get into details about the book in a minute, but
first let's start like we always do. There's a grandmother
who's talking with her grandson and she says, in life,
there are two wolves inside of us that are always
(02:19):
at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a
bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for
a second, and he looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother,
which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
It's interesting parable, isn't it. Eh?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, So I'd like to start off by asking you
what that parable means to you in your life and
in the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Absolutely, I think, certainly as a grandmother, it's fun for
me to think about those issues and it speaks to
really what I think is the wide range of emotions
we all experience. Right, So if we were on a
desert island, it wouldn't matter as much how we behaved
as a result of those feelings. But because most of
(03:12):
us really interact with so many people, you know, on
a daily basis, I think it's how we deal with
those feelings, those wolves. How we express or don't express
our huge range of emotions. Right, Not that being unhappy
or mad or angry is bad per se, but how
we express them and the impact that's going to have
(03:35):
on our relationships. That I think is the most important
part of what you know, the Parable says to me
in my life, and really what the book is all about.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Wonderful listener, as you're listening, what resonated with you in that?
I think a lot of us have some ideas of
things that we can do to feed our good wolf.
And here's a good tip to make it more likely
that you do it. It can be really helpful to
reflect right before you do that thing on why you
want to do it. Our brains are always making a
(04:07):
calculation of what neuroscientists would call reward value. Basically, is
this thing worth doing? And so when you're getting ready
to do this thing that you want to do to
feed your good wolf, reflecting on why actually helps to
make the reward value on that higher and makes it
more likely that you're going to do that. For example,
if what you're trying to do is exercise, Right before
(04:29):
you're getting ready to exercise, it can be useful to
remind yourself of why, For example, I want to exercise
because it makes my mental and emotional health better today.
If you'd like a step by step guide for how
you can easily build new habits that feed your good wolf,
go to Goodwolf dot me, slash change and join the
free masterclass. Early on in the book, you say we
(04:52):
want to let you in on a secret. Your relationships
hold the key to your happiness. Not your bank account,
your job of a Caribbean vacation, having a baby, not
having a baby, getting a promotion, building your dream kitchen,
or losing ten pounds. Those things may give you a
momentary boost, but it's your relationships with your friend's family, spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend,
(05:15):
coworkers and neighbors, even your hairdresser, that will determine whether
you're happy for the long term.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Absolutely, I think that's what really ipt. It's interpersonal psychotherapy,
which is the model that the book is based on,
is based on the premise that if you have good, meaningful,
constructive relationships, you're going to feel better. And if you're
struggling with depression or mood difficulties and you have good
(05:45):
meaningful relationships, then the symptoms of the depression will reduce
and diminish more quickly. So that's really the focus of
what I certainly believe and I think we find when
we do you address people's mood difficulties, it comes from
the conflicts they're having with others, or the stresses or
(06:09):
the disappointments, or if someone has lost a loved one
in terms of the death of someone, or maybe there's
been a huge transition in moving cities or losing a
job or being divorced, your relationships are profoundly affected and
it then results in whether you feel good about situation
(06:33):
and what's happening, or whether you don't feel very good
about it.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, you say that the founders of interpersonal psychotherapy saw
a pattern, and that was that people who had depression
were experiencing problems in at least one of four different
areas when they became depressed. Life transitions, complicated griefs, social isolation,
or interpersonal conflict.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yes, I think that's something that you can see for
yourself or others around you. So those areas were commonly
what would kind.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Of trigger a depressive episode.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
So being able to look at when you became depressed
or when you were having difficulty, if you could sit
back and say, well, yeah, that was when my friend
and I got into a you know, serious argument and
we stopped speaking to one another. Well, the result is
that you're lonely and you're distressed, and you're just you know,
(07:35):
pretty sad about what you've lost or if you've you know,
if you've lost a loved one. Sometimes you know, these
are common situations, but for some people they struggle with
that in a more profound way. So if someone passed
away a number of years ago, but you feel still
(07:57):
almost exactly the same as you felt when they or
you never even let yourself feel sadness or a loss
of that, that will affect your mood and how you're
feeling or you go through a transition, you know, if
you've lost a job or you have a baby, even
if it's a good thing, you know, I you know,
(08:17):
I don't know about your experience, but certainly when I
had my children, it was a huge adjustment. I mean,
I thought, here, I'm a psychologist, I know what I'm doing,
and I was open for a rude awakening as to
how hard it was and what a big adjustment it
was in my life. Or if a person struggles with
(08:38):
making relationships or sustaining them and feels very isolated, those.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Things, for sure you're going.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
To see how they affect your mood. Well you probably
would see that as well, don't you think.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I think this was a part of the book though
that I wrestled with a little bit, because because my
experience of has been now again, what's difficult for me
to know is like, take it all the way back
to where it started. It might very well have been
any of those things. But when I get depression these days,
it really seems to me that I can't tie it
(09:15):
to anything right, because I look, and this is in
my life today now. Plenty of times in the past
that I had depression. There were one of those four
things for sure happening, But as I've grown, I find
that less and less the case. I feel like those
areas in my life all feel pretty good, and yet
sometimes it's.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Still there, and I think that can be the case.
But I think it's interesting too when clients talk to
me or readers, they'll say, if you go back and
you look at what was happening that day, what were
you doing in the morning, what did you do the
day before, who did you interact with? Was there something
that bothered you or upsets you or distressed you. So
(09:57):
when you go back and look at it, oftentimes people
can pick out something that was distressing to them or
you know, upsetting to them or frustrating or made them angry.
But on the other hand, too, sometimes there's a big
difference between clinical depression and feeling sad. So if you
(10:19):
have a day where you're not feeling great and you're
not even sure what's bothering you or what's bugging you,
But the next day you get up and you're feeling better,
then you're not necessarily need to look for what's going
on in my relationships. But in this particular model, oftentimes
people can pick something they can say this past week,
(10:43):
this is what I was dealing with, this is what
caused me stress, and then we help them work on
how they can help themselves deal.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
With That makes sense, and so let's talk about One
of the things that interpersonal psychotherapy goes through is it's
an eight to twelve week program and the book is
set up to walk you through each of those weeks
like you would if you were seeing an interpersonal psychotherapist.
And so we're not going to get through all of those,
(11:13):
but one of them is to draw your social circle
and then ask yourself some questions about that. Can you
sort of walk me through this exercise?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I think it's very helpful for people who aren't sitting
really looking and examining their relationships in detail. So the
social circle is really valuable in the sense of looking
at relationships not as.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
All good or all bad, which.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
We tend to sometimes do and we say, well, that
person's terrible and they did this to me and I
really am mad at them. But instead, if you look
at each of your significant relationships and as you say,
we draw it out on a piece of paper and
you're name goes in the middle, and there may be
three concentric circles and you can put people who are
(12:05):
important to you in different spots. You look at the
questions are what's your contact like, what do you talk
about with that person? When do you see them? And
then what do you like about the relationship and what
don't you like about the relationship and what would you
like to be different? So the purpose is really to
(12:26):
look at your relationships on a spectrum versus black or white,
not all good or all bad, right, And also it
gives you an opportunity to think about the things you
would like to be different in that relationship. And it
also helps you look at are there potential people in
(12:47):
my social circle who I haven't connected with for a while,
Did I really feel that they were supportive and caring?
And maybe I'd like to nurture those relationships again. So
the social circle is really a very dynamic piece of
work or the information you gather in doing it so
that those things can change. During the weeks that we
(13:10):
work together, we either address one relationship in particular that's
causing you maybe more distress or conflict or problems than another,
but then also you can look at the other relationships
and maybe it's a place also to look for support
and for care and concern from. Who are the people
(13:32):
who who I can lean on or can talk to,
or can open up to and can help me through
a difficult situation. So really, the social circle has I
think has a lot of benefits and it's quite fun
to do. I mean, I've done it myself as well,
and it's like, well, where am I going to put
this person? Should I make them closer to me or
(13:53):
further away? Those are the kind of things sometimes that
are enlightening. Some people's social circles are very limited and
they don't have many relationships, and for those people, we
want to help them begin to expand their interpersonal networks
or inventory and build relationships that will be meaningful to them.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
That brings up a really good question, and I think
sits at the heart of a lot of this and
a lot of people that listen to the show. And
if you read the research statistics right across America is
this epidemic of loneliness that we're hearing about. So what
are ways for people who don't have a very robust
social circle. What are some of the ways you recommend
(14:40):
to go about starting to change and build that.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, I think there are steps that can be taken,
especially small steps to begin with. So if you think
about who you might have had contact with, and that's
why we even say like the hairdresser can be helpful,
or bartenders, they are sometimes the best people to talk to,
right They they're easy people to speak with. So you
(15:06):
really have to be prepared to kind of get out
of your house. That's one thing or what I would say.
And it's interesting is the idea of even connecting online.
You know, people who are reluctant or somewhat anxious about
connecting with other people. There are some benefits to online
(15:26):
connections and groups because it gives you an opportunity to
practice some of the skills of what am I going
to say? How am I going to start a conversation?
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Am I going to talk to someone and ask them
if they've gone through feeling concerned about? Well, what if
I approach somebody and I had don't really know what
to say? So we encourage those people who are isolated,
who are lonely, who haven't had, you know, practiced the
skills or of engaging with others to do that, to
(16:00):
try it out. And we have conversation starters, so we
don't just tell people who are reading the book, oh,
go do it. We give them some very specific, you know,
sentences and statements to you know, to make so that
they know what to say. You know, if they to
the person who gave them coffee, or to their hairdresser
(16:23):
where they go for a haircut, or if they go
to the grocery store and they can ask the person
you know, how they're feeling, or you know, engage in
in small talk there, so they're very specific strategies, or
to even ask someone else, you know, have you ever
had difficulty making friends? Have you ever had difficulty sustaining
(16:46):
some relationships? And and doing that really gives you information
and you sometimes find out that other people experience the
same feelings that you do, and you don't feel as
alone and you don't feel as isolated. So that's kind
of one step for people who are you know, who
are lonely, who are isolated, who are or less not
(17:10):
as engaged with other people.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So at one point in the book, you talk about
the difference between feelings and moods. Can you help me
understand the difference between feelings and moods?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Well, I think there's quite an overlaps although in terms
of feelings, what we encourage.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
People to do is to.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Maybe label or identify their feelings, so it helps in
terms of when you Certainly people tend to feel angry,
and it's kind of easy to get angry, but it's
harder to identify what other feelings you might be experiencing
underneath the anger. So besides being angry, you could be frustrated,
(18:17):
or you could be disappointed.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Or you could be sad.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And I think we really try to encourage people to
look at more than just the one feeling. And in
our book, for sure, we have a list of many, many,
many feelings, so you can pick and choose. And you've
probably seen those feeling charts, right with the happy faces
or the faces with all the different labels on them.
(18:41):
And I'll give you an example. The other day, I
know I had gotten annoyed at my husband for not
doing something, you know, it was a matter of meeting
with a friend, and he didn't ask the questions I'd
asked him, you know, to inquire about. And instead of
just getting mad or angry, he said to me, he said,
(19:01):
you had told me that you were over the difficulties
in that relationship. And I could have gotten mad at him,
and I could have gotten you know, told him he
was a jerker.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Why didn't he do it?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But instead I thought about what he said, and I said,
you know what, maybe I'm not over it. Maybe I'm
still sad about it. Maybe I'm still feeling you know,
the loss or feelings of rejection. And I thought I
was more over it than I was. So by labeling
your feelings, trying to understand them, trying to express them
(19:36):
in a constructive way, you're going to really avoid a
lot of fighting and a lot of arguing and conflict.
But then, moods really are a conglomeration of feelings. You know,
you may be in a depressed mood, and we have
lots of feelings that contribute to that. That were irritable,
that we were unmotivated, that were sad, that were ang
(20:00):
that we're not interested, we don't experience joy or pleasure.
So really, moods can be more of a kind of
broader category of a lot of different feelings.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
One of the things that you have is ten questions
for emotional enlightenment, and I like these. Obviously by enlightenment
you mean lightening up, of course, but let's walk through
these because I actually think that these are good questions
that can help us to identify what we're feeling and
(20:35):
to sort of tie what we're feeling to situations. So
let's just go ahead and walk through those ten if
that's all right with you.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I think there's a huge component of awareness. So being
able to be as aware as much as you can
in terms of you can ask yourself how am I feeling?
So you know, think of what it is you're experiencing.
And I think it's you know, maybe I'm being stereotypical,
but it's harder for guys sometimes to do this than girls,
(21:06):
like you know, women tend to emote all over the place,
but you know, being able to I say, what's making
me feel this way, you know, being specific about it.
What was making me feel bad the other day was
that I was feeling sad and rejected by an old
friendship i'd had. You know, how do I usually handle this?
(21:28):
That gives you a chance to examine how you usually respond.
The next question is, well, what happens when I handle
things that way? So you get an opportunity to look
at the way you handle your feelings. And the question
that I often ask somebody is well, how's that working
(21:48):
for you? You know, and often it isn't working for them.
So by looking at how you handle it and then
asking yourself again, well, how does it make me feel
when I handle it in that way? So when I'm impatient,
or I'm frustrated, or I don't listen, I don't feel
that good about it afterwards, So I can really evaluate
(22:11):
and say to myself, maybe I want to learn how
to handle it differently. Right, And then the other question
becomes how do other people who are involved feel?
Speaker 4 (22:22):
So it's really important.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
You know, it's easy for us to you know, blame
others or not take responsibility for ourselves or justify well,
I have every reason to be mad by the way
they treated me depending on how I respond, it's really
useful for me to know, well, how did they feel
when I was angry, when I was mad, when I
(22:46):
was short tempered with them? So being able to understand
my situation and my feelings but also considering them is
crucially important, right because you know, it's relationships are about
two people, two or more people, and how the impact
(23:08):
of what I do and what they do has on
each other. Right, And then I try to look at
what could I do differently? So in the book, we
spend a lot of time trying to examine is there
a different approach, Is there a different idea, Is there
a different way? It's really the interpersonal style. And my
(23:31):
co author Rawn tends to talk about this a lot,
is what's your style of interacting? Do you interact aggressively?
Do you interact by being really passive? Do you interact
by trying to be clear about what you're saying?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
So it makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And if I do interact differently, what impact or what
effect might that have on other people? So it's a
great way to break it down to help people take
a look at what they're doing now and how could
I be doing it differently and making it work better
for me and the other people I'm involved with.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, I really like the way that just sort of
starts from how am I feeling and kind of walks
all the way through to how are other people feeling?
And then you know, what is my habitual response to this?
What happens when I respond that way habitually? And then
you know one of my favorite questions of all time,
and I use it in coaching work with people a
(24:30):
lot is.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
What could we do differently? You know, what can you
do differently?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
That's such a powerful question because a lot of times
we get about as far as I shouldn't have done that,
which is okay, that's.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Good, But but now what what instead? Because that question
what can I do differently, if we ask it in
a really curious and open way, can unlock a lot
of things.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And if we're not sure, then the idea is to
who can help us figure it out? And even but
if you asked the other person if I said something
to you and you didn't like the way I said it,
what if I said, you know, Eric, how could I
have said that differently? That would have made you feel better?
Or wouldn't have sounded critical? So I think it's, you know,
(25:15):
in terms of figuring out how to do something different,
why not ask the other person? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:22):
That is a great idea that.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
To me is a really important thing to do. When
we feel we want to help people, we have our
own ideas of how we want to do it. But
if I ask somebody what would be helpful to you?
What could I do that would make us communicating better?
And I think that's really important with with kids, and adolescents,
because you know, that's fraught with a lot of a
(25:46):
lot of problems trying to you know, trying to solve
a conflict with an adolescent. You know, when you say, well,
they're not listening to me, or they're not you know,
doing what I've asked them to do. Well, what is
it that I'm doing that isn't as effective? How could
I engage differently? And the best person to ask is
(26:07):
is to ask the kids saying, is there a way
that I could speak to you about this or discuss
this topic with you that would make it easier for
us not to argue?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
That to me is a very valuable and the idea is,
you know, you could feel like you're doing nothing wrong
and the kids a pain in the butt. Right. But
the point is doesn't matter. You don't have to be
right or wrong. You just have to find a way
to communicate better, right, and to solve the problem. So
(26:40):
by putting it on yourself and saying, I really don't
want to argue with you, I want to understand what's
going on here.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Can you tell me what.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Would work better for the both of us?
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
And those conversations are much more fruitful I find.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I want to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder.
This one's about a habit change and a mistake I
see people making. And that's really that we don't think
about these new habits that we want to add in
the context of our entire life. Right, habits don't happen
in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life
that we have. So when we just keep adding I
(27:17):
should do this, I should do that, I should do this,
we get discouraged because we haven't really thought about what
we're not going to do in order to make that happen.
So it's really helpful for you to think about where
is this going to fit and what in my life
might I need to remove. If you want to step
by step guide for how you can easily build new
habits that feed your good Wolf, go to good Wolf
(27:38):
dot me, slash change and join the free masterclass. The
other thing that you say, and I think this is
so important, you say, human interactions and the relationships that
grow from them can't be reduced to mathematical equations. If
I always do X, the end result will always be
why if we try something and it doesn't work once,
it's not game over. If we intend to try something
(27:59):
new and things go sideways. It's not a forever failure.
And this makes me think back to a previous relationship
of mine, where our communication was disastrous and I would
suddenly decide that I was going to deal with this
in a new and better way, and so I would
think about what that new and better way was, and
I'd come to the conversation and I would trot out
(28:22):
my new skills and the other person would just react
in the same way and you know, same anger, same fighting,
and I would then be like, well, I tried something
new and that didn't work, so you know, I mean, right,
I just I just throw away. And what I finally
realized over a period of time was that a dynamic
(28:43):
that had been built between us didn't change because I
showed up one time to do things differently. I needed
to show up consistently with this new approach. And it
took me a while to figure that out because I
would just get so angry, like I'm doing something different,
but you're not. I think that's such an important thing.
You know, it's not a forever failure.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And now you know the next time you try something
different with someone else, you're not going to expect it
to work immediately. That's the good news is you know
what you did and you know what you learned, and
you can take those skills and use them in future
relationships as well. Right, which is what ipt does. You
want to focus on one area, You pick a goal
(29:25):
and you work on that for the eight or twelve weeks,
so and you know what you did that helped you
feel better. And also I think partly we encourage people
when they've tried something new. So if you had reported
you know, I went and I figured out how to
interact differently, I would say to you, no matter what
the outcome, no matter what the other person does, pay
(29:49):
attention to how you feel about when you tried it differently.
So if I asked you even now, most people I
would say say, well, it felt good to try it,
to behave differently, and that's a little victory and a
win as well. Right. So, if you were reluctant, if
you were uncertain, if you usually behave in a way
(30:10):
that isn't you know, you don't feel proud of but
you tried something new, well that you know.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
That's terrific. It's terrific that you.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Were willing to put it out there, no matter what
the other person did. So that that, to me, is
a very important and valuable piece to pay attention to.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
You have a phrase that you guys used through the
book over and over, and it's to ask what's the
best that could happen, what's the worst that could happen,
and what's the most likely outcome? Give me some examples
where that's a useful line of questioning.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Well, I think it's preparing everybody to say, partly what's realistic?
So I think that's that's one of the areas that's
really helpful. So if I, you know, I want to
approach somebody and I want to, you know, say to
my kids, you know, or I want to talk to
my partner about how we're dealing with the children, and
(31:35):
I say, well, I never want to be the best
parent I can be. I never want to argue or
yell at them ever again. Well, you know, and I'm
trying to figure out how to do this right, how
to accomplish this. Well, if I say, well, what's the
best outcome that you could have by approaching your kids
and saying, you know, I'm never going to argue with
you again. We're going to figure this out. You know
(31:58):
it's going to be well, what's the likely hood of
that happening? That's pretty unrealistic, right, Or if I say,
you know, it's never going to change, it's always going
to be the same, and I'm going to you know,
continue to argue and it's going to be a problem,
then that's pretty discouraging. But if I say I'm going
to approach my partner and we're going to have a
(32:19):
discussion about how we're going to deal with the kids
around screen time, then that's a much more realistic way
to approach a conversation about how are we going to
raise the kids or how are we going to deal
with the extended family? Right, So, I think it's mostly
in those circumstances where you're interacting with someone else and
(32:43):
it's about your expectations. I think it's really really important
to try to talk about one's own expectations in a
relationship or in a family, or in a work situation
or with a friend, and what they're expectations are of you,
so that you both are able to really understand and
(33:07):
articulate what each person is looking for in one another
and what the best possible outcome or more most realistic
outcome of the issue or the problem can be. So
it helps in terms of preparing what if you get,
you know, a bad reaction from someone if you haven't
(33:28):
talked to them for a long long time and you
pick up the phone and say, hi, we haven't spoken. Well,
are they going to say, oh, I never want to
speak to you again, Or are they going to say, oh,
you know, I've missed you so much, I really want
to see you. Or are they going to kind of
be a little surprised that you're calling, but say, how
are you doing? How are things going? We haven't spoken
(33:50):
for a while, So you're prepared. We also help people
prepare for the worst outcome if someone says that, or
the best outcome or the most realistic one. That's where
those three kind of questions really are helpful in kind
of preparing oneself for what you might expect when you
(34:11):
do approach someone.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Yeah, you mentioned the word expectations there, and you talked
about how important it is to talk about what our
expectations are in a relationship and then to hear what
the other person's expectations are. You guys have a tool
in the book called the matrix that helps you lay
this out.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, and I love this tool because it lets people
examine what I expect of myself, what I expect of
another person, right, and then it lets the other person
examine what their expectations are of themselves in our relationship
and what they expect of me as well.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
So it's a good.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Way to talk to one another, and it provides a
structure where people can talk without fighting. So you don't
do it necessarily when you're in the midst of the argument,
but afterwards you sit down and say, I'd really like
to address some things that are going on with us,
whether it's and if it's a romantic relationship or a
(35:15):
you know, marriage, or you basically might want to talk
about finances. You may want to talk about extended family.
You may want to examine issues about intimacy or sexual relationship.
You may want to talk about, you know, children, and
what those expectations are. So by each person identifying with
(35:37):
those topics what they expect of themselves what they expect
of the other person.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
You really have a vehicle. You have a tool.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Where you sit down and you talk to each other
and try to come up with the common a kind
of a master matrix that you both agree on and
you deal with it one thing at a time.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Time.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
You don't deal with all of them.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
You pick one area, one topic, one issue, and you
sit down and you discuss it with one another. You know,
we help people identify how to do that and then
you come to an agreement, hopefully something that's you know,
you both are comfortable with doing.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Let's say it's you.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Know, do we have Sunday night dinner with my family
every week? You negotiate it, you have a discussion about it.
How are we going to deal with our finances? How
much money are we going to bring into the family.
Those are the things that the matrix is. The matrix
really helps people clarify what their expectations are of the relationship.
(36:42):
People really find it extremely valuable to use the matrix.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
You also go on and you talk about the psychologist
Albert Ellis about how he has linked expectations to happiness,
and he said that seriously unhappy people often have three
rigidly held expectations. Can you walk us through what those are?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well? I think certainly any time you do have rigid expectations,
and it's not hard to have those in our society,
right where everything is put out there and you know,
all the wonderful pictures.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Of what the proposal should be.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
So when when you see on TV or magazine's a
you know, flowers strewn all over the room, and if
if you're you know, the person who's proposing to you
in real life doesn't do all of that, you can
really feel pretty disappointed that your wonderful, you know, expectation
of how that was going.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
To work would would be problematic for you.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
I also think I can give an example of with
you know, my husband, who we were going to go
on a road trip, well, we had to go to
a family function that was about five hours away, and
I know that he tends to be pretty quiet in
the car, so I said to him when we go, let's,
you know, make sure you kind of engage. Let's engage
in conversation or talk about things. And he said, well,
(38:04):
you know that's not realistic to expect of me, because
you know I don't talk a lot. He said, why
don't you just take the plane with the kids and
they'll be happy and I'll be happy and it'll all
work out right. So you know, my eggs, we've been
doing this for forty five years, and we found a way.
Speaker 4 (38:22):
You know, to make it work.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
So, you know, in terms of expectations, if you're rigid
about them, if you still kind of feel mad or
angry about the fact that you know, after so many years,
the person is a wonderful, kind, loving, terrific guy, but
he's really not going to talk as much as I
want him to talk, you know, So you know, you
(38:45):
have to really adjust your expectations. And another thing that
I think with expectations that's so valuable, and I'd love
to know your opinion about this, is I don't think
you can expect one person to me all your needs
all the time, in the way you want them and
exactly in the time you want them to be met.
(39:08):
So you can't put that pressure or that expectation on
one person in a relationship because it's really not going
to work most of the time. I think you have
to have your expectations met by different people, you know,
in different your friends or your family or your you know.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
That it's really you know, to put.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
That pressure on one person, I think is unfair to
yourself and them.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
I think I certainly have needs that get met from
lots of different people, and you know, that does seem
to be a unique thing about modern relationships, as we expect,
you know, one person to meet what used to be
met by a lot of different people.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
And I think if we change that, if we really
become more realistic about that, and we really look at
the things that someone can do and can provide versus
what they don't, I think we tend to feel a
lot happier and we look at the things that are
the most important to us, and I think the matrix
(40:13):
helps this identify the values of what's important to us.
So I've you know, I think I'm thinking a lot
these days about what the values are crucially important and
understanding the people that we relate to and do they share.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
The same values as we do.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Do they share the ideas of being honest, of being
there for you, of being compassionate, of being kind, about
being enthusiastic and supportive to you and each other? So
to me, those expectations are really crucial in my life
and also how I want to treat other people. If
(40:55):
I want to be respectful of someone, then I assume
that they will be you know, I want them to
be respectful of me as well. So if those values
I think are very very important in building good relationships.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Yeah, I really like that, So listener and thinking about
that and all the other great wisdom from today's episode.
If you were going to isolate just one top insight
that you're taking away, what would it be. Remember, little
by little, a little becomes a lot. Change happens by
us repeatedly taking positive action. And I want to give
you a tip on that, and it's to start small.
(41:32):
It's really important when we're trying to implement new habits
to often start smaller than we think we need to,
because what that does is it allows us to get victories.
And victories are really important because we become more motivated
when we're feeling good about ourselves, and we become less
motivated when we're feeling bad about ourselves. So by starting
small and making sure that you succeed, you build your
(41:55):
motivation for further change down the road. If you'd like
a step by step guy for how you can easily
build new habits that feed your good Wolf, go to
Goodwolf dot me slash change and join the free masterclass. Well, Cindy,
we are at the end of our time here. You
and I are going to talk for a few more
minutes in the post show conversation about some suggested conversation
(42:18):
starters and some to be avoided conversation enders. So we're
going to get kind of specific on some actual ways
to make conversation go better, and we'll do that in
the post show conversation. Listeners you can get access to
this one and all of those, as well as a
mini episode I do each week where I give a teaching,
(42:39):
a song and a poem. All that is at oneufeed
dot net slash support. Cindy, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on and I've really enjoyed
talking with you.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Thank you very much for the opportunity. It's been a
real pleasure.
Speaker 5 (42:52):
Okay bye.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
consider making a donation to The One You Feed podcast.
Head over to oneufeed dot net slash support. The One
You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors
for supporting the show.
By labeling your feelings, trying to understand them, trying to
express them in a constructive way, you're going to really
avoid a lot of fighting and a lot of arguing
and conflict.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
(00:44):
have instead of what we do. We think things that
hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We
(01:19):
hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for
joining us. Our guest on this episode is Cindy Goodman Stallberg.
She's an internationally respected psychologist and director for the Institute
of Interpersonal Psychotherapy. She's provided psychological assessment and counseling for
individuals couples, groups and families for over thirty five years.
(01:41):
Her book is Feeling Better, Beat Depression and Improve Your
Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Hi, Cindy, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Hi. Thank you very much for having me on today
and giving me the opportunity to talk to you and
your listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
My pleasure. Your book is called Feeling Better, Beat Depression
and Improve Your Relationships with Interpersonal Psychotherapy, and we will
get into details about the book in a minute, but
first let's start like we always do. There's a grandmother
who's talking with her grandson and she says, in life,
there are two wolves inside of us that are always
(02:19):
at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a
bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for
a second, and he looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother,
which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
It's interesting parable, isn't it. Eh?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, So I'd like to start off by asking you
what that parable means to you in your life and
in the work that you do.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Absolutely, I think, certainly as a grandmother, it's fun for
me to think about those issues and it speaks to
really what I think is the wide range of emotions
we all experience. Right, So if we were on a
desert island, it wouldn't matter as much how we behaved
as a result of those feelings. But because most of
(03:12):
us really interact with so many people, you know, on
a daily basis, I think it's how we deal with
those feelings, those wolves. How we express or don't express
our huge range of emotions. Right, Not that being unhappy
or mad or angry is bad per se, but how
we express them and the impact that's going to have
(03:35):
on our relationships. That I think is the most important
part of what you know, the Parable says to me
in my life, and really what the book is all about.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Wonderful listener, as you're listening, what resonated with you in that?
I think a lot of us have some ideas of
things that we can do to feed our good wolf.
And here's a good tip to make it more likely
that you do it. It can be really helpful to
reflect right before you do that thing on why you
want to do it. Our brains are always making a
(04:07):
calculation of what neuroscientists would call reward value. Basically, is
this thing worth doing? And so when you're getting ready
to do this thing that you want to do to
feed your good wolf, reflecting on why actually helps to
make the reward value on that higher and makes it
more likely that you're going to do that. For example,
if what you're trying to do is exercise, Right before
(04:29):
you're getting ready to exercise, it can be useful to
remind yourself of why, For example, I want to exercise
because it makes my mental and emotional health better today.
If you'd like a step by step guide for how
you can easily build new habits that feed your good wolf,
go to Goodwolf dot me, slash change and join the
free masterclass. Early on in the book, you say we
(04:52):
want to let you in on a secret. Your relationships
hold the key to your happiness. Not your bank account,
your job of a Caribbean vacation, having a baby, not
having a baby, getting a promotion, building your dream kitchen,
or losing ten pounds. Those things may give you a
momentary boost, but it's your relationships with your friend's family, spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend,
(05:15):
coworkers and neighbors, even your hairdresser, that will determine whether
you're happy for the long term.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Absolutely, I think that's what really ipt. It's interpersonal psychotherapy,
which is the model that the book is based on,
is based on the premise that if you have good, meaningful,
constructive relationships, you're going to feel better. And if you're
struggling with depression or mood difficulties and you have good
(05:45):
meaningful relationships, then the symptoms of the depression will reduce
and diminish more quickly. So that's really the focus of
what I certainly believe and I think we find when
we do you address people's mood difficulties, it comes from
the conflicts they're having with others, or the stresses or
(06:09):
the disappointments, or if someone has lost a loved one
in terms of the death of someone, or maybe there's
been a huge transition in moving cities or losing a
job or being divorced, your relationships are profoundly affected and
it then results in whether you feel good about situation
(06:33):
and what's happening, or whether you don't feel very good
about it.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, you say that the founders of interpersonal psychotherapy saw
a pattern, and that was that people who had depression
were experiencing problems in at least one of four different
areas when they became depressed. Life transitions, complicated griefs, social isolation,
or interpersonal conflict.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yes, I think that's something that you can see for
yourself or others around you. So those areas were commonly
what would kind.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Of trigger a depressive episode.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
So being able to look at when you became depressed
or when you were having difficulty, if you could sit
back and say, well, yeah, that was when my friend
and I got into a you know, serious argument and
we stopped speaking to one another. Well, the result is
that you're lonely and you're distressed, and you're just you know,
(07:35):
pretty sad about what you've lost or if you've you know,
if you've lost a loved one. Sometimes you know, these
are common situations, but for some people they struggle with
that in a more profound way. So if someone passed
away a number of years ago, but you feel still
(07:57):
almost exactly the same as you felt when they or
you never even let yourself feel sadness or a loss
of that, that will affect your mood and how you're
feeling or you go through a transition, you know, if
you've lost a job or you have a baby, even
if it's a good thing, you know, I you know,
(08:17):
I don't know about your experience, but certainly when I
had my children, it was a huge adjustment. I mean,
I thought, here, I'm a psychologist, I know what I'm doing,
and I was open for a rude awakening as to
how hard it was and what a big adjustment it
was in my life. Or if a person struggles with
(08:38):
making relationships or sustaining them and feels very isolated, those.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Things, for sure you're going.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
To see how they affect your mood. Well you probably
would see that as well, don't you think.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I think this was a part of the book though
that I wrestled with a little bit, because because my
experience of has been now again, what's difficult for me
to know is like, take it all the way back
to where it started. It might very well have been
any of those things. But when I get depression these days,
it really seems to me that I can't tie it
(09:15):
to anything right, because I look, and this is in
my life today now. Plenty of times in the past
that I had depression. There were one of those four
things for sure happening, But as I've grown, I find
that less and less the case. I feel like those
areas in my life all feel pretty good, and yet
sometimes it's.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Still there, and I think that can be the case.
But I think it's interesting too when clients talk to
me or readers, they'll say, if you go back and
you look at what was happening that day, what were
you doing in the morning, what did you do the
day before, who did you interact with? Was there something
that bothered you or upsets you or distressed you. So
(09:57):
when you go back and look at it, oftentimes people
can pick out something that was distressing to them or
you know, upsetting to them or frustrating or made them angry.
But on the other hand, too, sometimes there's a big
difference between clinical depression and feeling sad. So if you
(10:19):
have a day where you're not feeling great and you're
not even sure what's bothering you or what's bugging you,
But the next day you get up and you're feeling better,
then you're not necessarily need to look for what's going
on in my relationships. But in this particular model, oftentimes
people can pick something they can say this past week,
(10:43):
this is what I was dealing with, this is what
caused me stress, and then we help them work on
how they can help themselves deal.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
With That makes sense, and so let's talk about One
of the things that interpersonal psychotherapy goes through is it's
an eight to twelve week program and the book is
set up to walk you through each of those weeks
like you would if you were seeing an interpersonal psychotherapist.
And so we're not going to get through all of those,
(11:13):
but one of them is to draw your social circle
and then ask yourself some questions about that. Can you
sort of walk me through this exercise?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I think it's very helpful for people who aren't sitting
really looking and examining their relationships in detail. So the
social circle is really valuable in the sense of looking
at relationships not as.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
All good or all bad, which.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
We tend to sometimes do and we say, well, that
person's terrible and they did this to me and I
really am mad at them. But instead, if you look
at each of your significant relationships and as you say,
we draw it out on a piece of paper and
you're name goes in the middle, and there may be
three concentric circles and you can put people who are
(12:05):
important to you in different spots. You look at the
questions are what's your contact like, what do you talk
about with that person? When do you see them? And
then what do you like about the relationship and what
don't you like about the relationship and what would you
like to be different? So the purpose is really to
(12:26):
look at your relationships on a spectrum versus black or white,
not all good or all bad, right, And also it
gives you an opportunity to think about the things you
would like to be different in that relationship. And it
also helps you look at are there potential people in
(12:47):
my social circle who I haven't connected with for a while,
Did I really feel that they were supportive and caring?
And maybe I'd like to nurture those relationships again. So
the social circle is really a very dynamic piece of
work or the information you gather in doing it so
that those things can change. During the weeks that we
(13:10):
work together, we either address one relationship in particular that's
causing you maybe more distress or conflict or problems than another,
but then also you can look at the other relationships
and maybe it's a place also to look for support
and for care and concern from. Who are the people
(13:32):
who who I can lean on or can talk to,
or can open up to and can help me through
a difficult situation. So really, the social circle has I
think has a lot of benefits and it's quite fun
to do. I mean, I've done it myself as well,
and it's like, well, where am I going to put
this person? Should I make them closer to me or
(13:53):
further away? Those are the kind of things sometimes that
are enlightening. Some people's social circles are very limited and
they don't have many relationships, and for those people, we
want to help them begin to expand their interpersonal networks
or inventory and build relationships that will be meaningful to them.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
That brings up a really good question, and I think
sits at the heart of a lot of this and
a lot of people that listen to the show. And
if you read the research statistics right across America is
this epidemic of loneliness that we're hearing about. So what
are ways for people who don't have a very robust
social circle. What are some of the ways you recommend
(14:40):
to go about starting to change and build that.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, I think there are steps that can be taken,
especially small steps to begin with. So if you think
about who you might have had contact with, and that's
why we even say like the hairdresser can be helpful,
or bartenders, they are sometimes the best people to talk to,
right They they're easy people to speak with. So you
(15:06):
really have to be prepared to kind of get out
of your house. That's one thing or what I would say.
And it's interesting is the idea of even connecting online.
You know, people who are reluctant or somewhat anxious about
connecting with other people. There are some benefits to online
(15:26):
connections and groups because it gives you an opportunity to
practice some of the skills of what am I going
to say? How am I going to start a conversation?
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Am I going to talk to someone and ask them
if they've gone through feeling concerned about? Well, what if
I approach somebody and I had don't really know what
to say? So we encourage those people who are isolated,
who are lonely, who haven't had, you know, practiced the
skills or of engaging with others to do that, to
(16:00):
try it out. And we have conversation starters, so we
don't just tell people who are reading the book, oh,
go do it. We give them some very specific, you know,
sentences and statements to you know, to make so that
they know what to say. You know, if they to
the person who gave them coffee, or to their hairdresser
(16:23):
where they go for a haircut, or if they go
to the grocery store and they can ask the person
you know, how they're feeling, or you know, engage in
in small talk there, so they're very specific strategies, or
to even ask someone else, you know, have you ever
had difficulty making friends? Have you ever had difficulty sustaining
(16:46):
some relationships? And and doing that really gives you information
and you sometimes find out that other people experience the
same feelings that you do, and you don't feel as
alone and you don't feel as isolated. So that's kind
of one step for people who are you know, who
are lonely, who are isolated, who are or less not
(17:10):
as engaged with other people.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So at one point in the book, you talk about
the difference between feelings and moods. Can you help me
understand the difference between feelings and moods?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Well, I think there's quite an overlaps although in terms
of feelings, what we encourage.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
People to do is to.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Maybe label or identify their feelings, so it helps in
terms of when you Certainly people tend to feel angry,
and it's kind of easy to get angry, but it's
harder to identify what other feelings you might be experiencing
underneath the anger. So besides being angry, you could be frustrated,
(18:17):
or you could be disappointed.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Or you could be sad.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And I think we really try to encourage people to
look at more than just the one feeling. And in
our book, for sure, we have a list of many, many,
many feelings, so you can pick and choose. And you've
probably seen those feeling charts, right with the happy faces
or the faces with all the different labels on them.
(18:41):
And I'll give you an example. The other day, I
know I had gotten annoyed at my husband for not
doing something, you know, it was a matter of meeting
with a friend, and he didn't ask the questions I'd
asked him, you know, to inquire about. And instead of
just getting mad or angry, he said to me, he said,
(19:01):
you had told me that you were over the difficulties
in that relationship. And I could have gotten mad at him,
and I could have gotten you know, told him he
was a jerker.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Why didn't he do it?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But instead I thought about what he said, and I said,
you know what, maybe I'm not over it. Maybe I'm
still sad about it. Maybe I'm still feeling you know,
the loss or feelings of rejection. And I thought I
was more over it than I was. So by labeling
your feelings, trying to understand them, trying to express them
(19:36):
in a constructive way, you're going to really avoid a
lot of fighting and a lot of arguing and conflict.
But then, moods really are a conglomeration of feelings. You know,
you may be in a depressed mood, and we have
lots of feelings that contribute to that. That were irritable,
that we were unmotivated, that were sad, that were ang
(20:00):
that we're not interested, we don't experience joy or pleasure.
So really, moods can be more of a kind of
broader category of a lot of different feelings.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
One of the things that you have is ten questions
for emotional enlightenment, and I like these. Obviously by enlightenment
you mean lightening up, of course, but let's walk through
these because I actually think that these are good questions
that can help us to identify what we're feeling and
(20:35):
to sort of tie what we're feeling to situations. So
let's just go ahead and walk through those ten if
that's all right with you.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I think there's a huge component of awareness. So being
able to be as aware as much as you can
in terms of you can ask yourself how am I feeling?
So you know, think of what it is you're experiencing.
And I think it's you know, maybe I'm being stereotypical,
but it's harder for guys sometimes to do this than girls,
(21:06):
like you know, women tend to emote all over the place,
but you know, being able to I say, what's making
me feel this way, you know, being specific about it.
What was making me feel bad the other day was
that I was feeling sad and rejected by an old
friendship i'd had. You know, how do I usually handle this?
(21:28):
That gives you a chance to examine how you usually respond.
The next question is, well, what happens when I handle
things that way? So you get an opportunity to look
at the way you handle your feelings. And the question
that I often ask somebody is well, how's that working
(21:48):
for you? You know, and often it isn't working for them.
So by looking at how you handle it and then
asking yourself again, well, how does it make me feel
when I handle it in that way? So when I'm impatient,
or I'm frustrated, or I don't listen, I don't feel
that good about it afterwards, So I can really evaluate
(22:11):
and say to myself, maybe I want to learn how
to handle it differently. Right, And then the other question
becomes how do other people who are involved feel?
Speaker 4 (22:22):
So it's really important.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
You know, it's easy for us to you know, blame
others or not take responsibility for ourselves or justify well,
I have every reason to be mad by the way
they treated me depending on how I respond, it's really
useful for me to know, well, how did they feel
when I was angry, when I was mad, when I
(22:46):
was short tempered with them? So being able to understand
my situation and my feelings but also considering them is
crucially important, right because you know, it's relationships are about
two people, two or more people, and how the impact
(23:08):
of what I do and what they do has on
each other. Right, And then I try to look at
what could I do differently? So in the book, we
spend a lot of time trying to examine is there
a different approach, Is there a different idea, Is there
a different way? It's really the interpersonal style. And my
(23:31):
co author Rawn tends to talk about this a lot,
is what's your style of interacting? Do you interact aggressively?
Do you interact by being really passive? Do you interact
by trying to be clear about what you're saying?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
So it makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And if I do interact differently, what impact or what
effect might that have on other people? So it's a
great way to break it down to help people take
a look at what they're doing now and how could
I be doing it differently and making it work better
for me and the other people I'm involved with.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, I really like the way that just sort of
starts from how am I feeling and kind of walks
all the way through to how are other people feeling?
And then you know, what is my habitual response to this?
What happens when I respond that way habitually? And then
you know one of my favorite questions of all time,
and I use it in coaching work with people a
(24:30):
lot is.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
What could we do differently? You know, what can you
do differently?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
That's such a powerful question because a lot of times
we get about as far as I shouldn't have done that,
which is okay, that's.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Good, But but now what what instead? Because that question
what can I do differently, if we ask it in
a really curious and open way, can unlock a lot
of things.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
And if we're not sure, then the idea is to
who can help us figure it out? And even but
if you asked the other person if I said something
to you and you didn't like the way I said it,
what if I said, you know, Eric, how could I
have said that differently? That would have made you feel better?
Or wouldn't have sounded critical? So I think it's, you know,
(25:15):
in terms of figuring out how to do something different,
why not ask the other person? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:22):
That is a great idea that.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
To me is a really important thing to do. When
we feel we want to help people, we have our
own ideas of how we want to do it. But
if I ask somebody what would be helpful to you?
What could I do that would make us communicating better?
And I think that's really important with with kids, and adolescents,
because you know, that's fraught with a lot of a
(25:46):
lot of problems trying to you know, trying to solve
a conflict with an adolescent. You know, when you say, well,
they're not listening to me, or they're not you know,
doing what I've asked them to do. Well, what is
it that I'm doing that isn't as effective? How could
I engage differently? And the best person to ask is
(26:07):
is to ask the kids saying, is there a way
that I could speak to you about this or discuss
this topic with you that would make it easier for
us not to argue?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
That to me is a very valuable and the idea is,
you know, you could feel like you're doing nothing wrong
and the kids a pain in the butt. Right. But
the point is doesn't matter. You don't have to be
right or wrong. You just have to find a way
to communicate better, right, and to solve the problem. So
(26:40):
by putting it on yourself and saying, I really don't
want to argue with you, I want to understand what's
going on here.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Can you tell me what.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Would work better for the both of us?
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
And those conversations are much more fruitful I find.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I want to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder.
This one's about a habit change and a mistake I
see people making. And that's really that we don't think
about these new habits that we want to add in
the context of our entire life. Right, habits don't happen
in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life
that we have. So when we just keep adding I
(27:17):
should do this, I should do that, I should do this,
we get discouraged because we haven't really thought about what
we're not going to do in order to make that happen.
So it's really helpful for you to think about where
is this going to fit and what in my life
might I need to remove. If you want to step
by step guide for how you can easily build new
habits that feed your good Wolf, go to good Wolf
(27:38):
dot me, slash change and join the free masterclass. The
other thing that you say, and I think this is
so important, you say, human interactions and the relationships that
grow from them can't be reduced to mathematical equations. If
I always do X, the end result will always be
why if we try something and it doesn't work once,
it's not game over. If we intend to try something
(27:59):
new and things go sideways. It's not a forever failure.
And this makes me think back to a previous relationship
of mine, where our communication was disastrous and I would
suddenly decide that I was going to deal with this
in a new and better way, and so I would
think about what that new and better way was, and
I'd come to the conversation and I would trot out
(28:22):
my new skills and the other person would just react
in the same way and you know, same anger, same fighting,
and I would then be like, well, I tried something
new and that didn't work, so you know, I mean, right,
I just I just throw away. And what I finally
realized over a period of time was that a dynamic
(28:43):
that had been built between us didn't change because I
showed up one time to do things differently. I needed
to show up consistently with this new approach. And it
took me a while to figure that out because I
would just get so angry, like I'm doing something different,
but you're not. I think that's such an important thing.
You know, it's not a forever failure.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And now you know the next time you try something
different with someone else, you're not going to expect it
to work immediately. That's the good news is you know
what you did and you know what you learned, and
you can take those skills and use them in future
relationships as well. Right, which is what ipt does. You
want to focus on one area, You pick a goal
(29:25):
and you work on that for the eight or twelve weeks,
so and you know what you did that helped you
feel better. And also I think partly we encourage people
when they've tried something new. So if you had reported
you know, I went and I figured out how to
interact differently, I would say to you, no matter what
the outcome, no matter what the other person does, pay
(29:49):
attention to how you feel about when you tried it differently.
So if I asked you even now, most people I
would say say, well, it felt good to try it,
to behave differently, and that's a little victory and a
win as well. Right. So, if you were reluctant, if
you were uncertain, if you usually behave in a way
(30:10):
that isn't you know, you don't feel proud of but
you tried something new, well that you know.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
That's terrific. It's terrific that you.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Were willing to put it out there, no matter what
the other person did. So that that, to me, is
a very important and valuable piece to pay attention to.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
You have a phrase that you guys used through the
book over and over, and it's to ask what's the
best that could happen, what's the worst that could happen,
and what's the most likely outcome? Give me some examples
where that's a useful line of questioning.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Well, I think it's preparing everybody to say, partly what's realistic?
So I think that's that's one of the areas that's
really helpful. So if I, you know, I want to
approach somebody and I want to, you know, say to
my kids, you know, or I want to talk to
my partner about how we're dealing with the children, and
(31:35):
I say, well, I never want to be the best
parent I can be. I never want to argue or
yell at them ever again. Well, you know, and I'm
trying to figure out how to do this right, how
to accomplish this. Well, if I say, well, what's the
best outcome that you could have by approaching your kids
and saying, you know, I'm never going to argue with
you again. We're going to figure this out. You know
(31:58):
it's going to be well, what's the likely hood of
that happening? That's pretty unrealistic, right, Or if I say,
you know, it's never going to change, it's always going
to be the same, and I'm going to you know,
continue to argue and it's going to be a problem,
then that's pretty discouraging. But if I say I'm going
to approach my partner and we're going to have a
(32:19):
discussion about how we're going to deal with the kids
around screen time, then that's a much more realistic way
to approach a conversation about how are we going to
raise the kids or how are we going to deal
with the extended family? Right, So, I think it's mostly
in those circumstances where you're interacting with someone else and
(32:43):
it's about your expectations. I think it's really really important
to try to talk about one's own expectations in a
relationship or in a family, or in a work situation
or with a friend, and what they're expectations are of you,
so that you both are able to really understand and
(33:07):
articulate what each person is looking for in one another
and what the best possible outcome or more most realistic
outcome of the issue or the problem can be. So
it helps in terms of preparing what if you get,
you know, a bad reaction from someone if you haven't
(33:28):
talked to them for a long long time and you
pick up the phone and say, hi, we haven't spoken. Well,
are they going to say, oh, I never want to
speak to you again, Or are they going to say, oh,
you know, I've missed you so much, I really want
to see you. Or are they going to kind of
be a little surprised that you're calling, but say, how
are you doing? How are things going? We haven't spoken
(33:50):
for a while, So you're prepared. We also help people
prepare for the worst outcome if someone says that, or
the best outcome or the most realistic one. That's where
those three kind of questions really are helpful in kind
of preparing oneself for what you might expect when you
(34:11):
do approach someone.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Yeah, you mentioned the word expectations there, and you talked
about how important it is to talk about what our
expectations are in a relationship and then to hear what
the other person's expectations are. You guys have a tool
in the book called the matrix that helps you lay
this out.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, and I love this tool because it lets people
examine what I expect of myself, what I expect of
another person, right, and then it lets the other person
examine what their expectations are of themselves in our relationship
and what they expect of me as well.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
So it's a good.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Way to talk to one another, and it provides a
structure where people can talk without fighting. So you don't
do it necessarily when you're in the midst of the argument,
but afterwards you sit down and say, I'd really like
to address some things that are going on with us,
whether it's and if it's a romantic relationship or a
(35:15):
you know, marriage, or you basically might want to talk
about finances. You may want to talk about extended family.
You may want to examine issues about intimacy or sexual relationship.
You may want to talk about, you know, children, and
what those expectations are. So by each person identifying with
(35:37):
those topics what they expect of themselves what they expect
of the other person.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
You really have a vehicle. You have a tool.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Where you sit down and you talk to each other
and try to come up with the common a kind
of a master matrix that you both agree on and
you deal with it one thing at a time.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Time.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
You don't deal with all of them.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
You pick one area, one topic, one issue, and you
sit down and you discuss it with one another. You know,
we help people identify how to do that and then
you come to an agreement, hopefully something that's you know,
you both are comfortable with doing.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Let's say it's you.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Know, do we have Sunday night dinner with my family
every week? You negotiate it, you have a discussion about it.
How are we going to deal with our finances? How
much money are we going to bring into the family.
Those are the things that the matrix is. The matrix
really helps people clarify what their expectations are of the relationship.
(36:42):
People really find it extremely valuable to use the matrix.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
You also go on and you talk about the psychologist
Albert Ellis about how he has linked expectations to happiness,
and he said that seriously unhappy people often have three
rigidly held expectations. Can you walk us through what those are?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well? I think certainly any time you do have rigid expectations,
and it's not hard to have those in our society,
right where everything is put out there and you know,
all the wonderful pictures.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Of what the proposal should be.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
So when when you see on TV or magazine's a
you know, flowers strewn all over the room, and if
if you're you know, the person who's proposing to you
in real life doesn't do all of that, you can
really feel pretty disappointed that your wonderful, you know, expectation
of how that was going.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
To work would would be problematic for you.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
I also think I can give an example of with
you know, my husband, who we were going to go
on a road trip, well, we had to go to
a family function that was about five hours away, and
I know that he tends to be pretty quiet in
the car, so I said to him when we go, let's,
you know, make sure you kind of engage. Let's engage
in conversation or talk about things. And he said, well,
(38:04):
you know that's not realistic to expect of me, because
you know I don't talk a lot. He said, why
don't you just take the plane with the kids and
they'll be happy and I'll be happy and it'll all
work out right. So you know, my eggs, we've been
doing this for forty five years, and we found a way.
Speaker 4 (38:22):
You know, to make it work.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
So, you know, in terms of expectations, if you're rigid
about them, if you still kind of feel mad or
angry about the fact that you know, after so many years,
the person is a wonderful, kind, loving, terrific guy, but
he's really not going to talk as much as I
want him to talk, you know, So you know, you
(38:45):
have to really adjust your expectations. And another thing that
I think with expectations that's so valuable, and I'd love
to know your opinion about this, is I don't think
you can expect one person to me all your needs
all the time, in the way you want them and
exactly in the time you want them to be met.
(39:08):
So you can't put that pressure or that expectation on
one person in a relationship because it's really not going
to work most of the time. I think you have
to have your expectations met by different people, you know,
in different your friends or your family or your you know.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
That it's really you know, to put.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
That pressure on one person, I think is unfair to
yourself and them.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
I agree.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
I think I certainly have needs that get met from
lots of different people, and you know, that does seem
to be a unique thing about modern relationships, as we expect,
you know, one person to meet what used to be
met by a lot of different people.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
And I think if we change that, if we really
become more realistic about that, and we really look at
the things that someone can do and can provide versus
what they don't, I think we tend to feel a
lot happier and we look at the things that are
the most important to us, and I think the matrix
(40:13):
helps this identify the values of what's important to us.
So I've you know, I think I'm thinking a lot
these days about what the values are crucially important and
understanding the people that we relate to and do they share.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
The same values as we do.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Do they share the ideas of being honest, of being
there for you, of being compassionate, of being kind, about
being enthusiastic and supportive to you and each other? So
to me, those expectations are really crucial in my life
and also how I want to treat other people. If
(40:55):
I want to be respectful of someone, then I assume
that they will be you know, I want them to
be respectful of me as well. So if those values
I think are very very important in building good relationships.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Yeah, I really like that, So listener and thinking about
that and all the other great wisdom from today's episode.
If you were going to isolate just one top insight
that you're taking away, what would it be. Remember, little
by little, a little becomes a lot. Change happens by
us repeatedly taking positive action. And I want to give
you a tip on that, and it's to start small.
(41:32):
It's really important when we're trying to implement new habits
to often start smaller than we think we need to,
because what that does is it allows us to get victories.
And victories are really important because we become more motivated
when we're feeling good about ourselves, and we become less
motivated when we're feeling bad about ourselves. So by starting
small and making sure that you succeed, you build your
(41:55):
motivation for further change down the road. If you'd like
a step by step guy for how you can easily
build new habits that feed your good Wolf, go to
Goodwolf dot me slash change and join the free masterclass. Well, Cindy,
we are at the end of our time here. You
and I are going to talk for a few more
minutes in the post show conversation about some suggested conversation
(42:18):
starters and some to be avoided conversation enders. So we're
going to get kind of specific on some actual ways
to make conversation go better, and we'll do that in
the post show conversation. Listeners you can get access to
this one and all of those, as well as a
mini episode I do each week where I give a teaching,
(42:39):
a song and a poem. All that is at oneufeed
dot net slash support. Cindy, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on and I've really enjoyed
talking with you.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Thank you very much for the opportunity. It's been a
real pleasure.
Speaker 5 (42:52):
Okay bye.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
consider making a donation to The One You Feed podcast.
Head over to oneufeed dot net slash support. The One
You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors
for supporting the show.
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