March 15, 2019 • 24 mins
Zac talks to Washington Post reporter Tom Jackman about the latest in the RFK case. And then, Tom takes Zac through another of his stories about an old spy taking down a Jamaican scam... all caught on a wire.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Joshington Post. Tom Jackman, Hey, Tom, Zack start Pontier, Hey Man, Hey,
So I just was wanting to talk to you about
your writing in the RFKA case. So is it okay
if I record the conversation? Absolutely? I was just gonna say,
let me know when Well, how long have you been
(00:26):
at the Post? Just I've been at the Post for
twenty years. This is Tom Jackman. He's a reporter at
the Washington Post on the true crime beat, and he's
written a bunch of articles recently about the RFK case.
And so, how do you first get onto the RFK story? Oh? Yeah,
I know, I remember. So I was doing the story
(00:47):
on the fiftieth anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther
King and speaking to his family members and folks associated
with that case who believed that James Earl Ray was
wrongly convicted of being the lone government in that case.
And the last lawyer for James Earl Ray as a
fellow named doctor William Pepper who lives in New York.
(01:10):
RFK tapes listeners may remember William Pepper as Sir Hans
Sir Hans attorney current attorney from episode six of the
season Pepper gave Tom the brief he'd filed on Sir
Hans's behalf, and I read it and began reading more,
and began reading the book, starting with Dan Moldea's book,
and then onto the books to think that Dan Mouldea
(01:33):
got it wrong, and then took it from there, talking
to both sides as tired old legacy media will do,
and wound up writing a four part series about it,
which led with an interview with Robert Kennedy Jr. Who
disclosed to me that he had met with Sir Hand
in prison in December of twenty seventeen. Today and the
(02:00):
show a conversation with Washington Post reporter Tom Jackman about
what's going on with the RFK case today, and then
Tom tells me about one of his other recent articles,
a story about a spy and a Jamaican scammer all
caught on a wire tap, Zack Stuart Ponzier. This is
(02:20):
the RFK tapes. Robert Kennedy Jr. Told The Washington Post
that once he saw the autopsy report quote, I didn't
feel it was something I could dismiss. I was disturbed
the wrong person might have been convicted of killing my
(02:43):
father Tony Ducopole is here, Tony, good morning, Good morning.
I didn't know that that was coming. There were apparently
a lot of people in that circle that knew that
he had met with Sir Hand, but they were sworn
to secrecy, and he just decided to tell me. So
that changed the orientation of the article from sort of
(03:03):
a historical piece to this is happening now. Bobby Kennedy
Junior believes in the innocence of Sirhan and is willing
to push for it now. Anybody who is the autopsy
report is it's hard to believe that Sir Hand shot
my dad, that he is all that, because Sirhan was
(03:24):
always in front of my father, and yet all shots,
all the four shots that hit my father came from
behind him. That leads you to conclude what all I
don't have any conclusion, you know, I I mean, in
my opinion, is really irrelevant. What's important is what the
(03:44):
facts saying, what the autopsy says, the ballistic eminence, and
what the eye witness citizen. I've asked for a reinvestigation
of it, of the murder. That's powerful. I mean, the
Kennedy family still holds, you know, a large sway over
this country, and Bobby Kennedy Jr. Has done a lot
(04:06):
to try to maintain that. And so to have him
saying I think this guy's wrongly convicted. He didn't say
it quite so bluntly last year. He did say in
this most recent article, sir hand just flat didn't do it.
But it's a big step. You know, that's the victim's family.
You break it down to, this is a crime, Bobby
(04:28):
Kennedy is the victim. Putting aside the massive implications of
a Kennedy killed on the verge of the presidency, here's
the homicide victim's family saying we don't think the defendant
is guilty, and it's a Kennedy. It's just monumental. Yeah.
And it should be noted that Kathleen Kennedy Towns and
(04:50):
his sister, the former lieutenant governor of Maryland, initially wouldn't
talk to me and didn't want to offer a comment
on this. Then after the story came out, the Boston
Globe called her up and said what do you think?
And she said, well, I think there should be a
new investigation. And so I called her up and she
told me the exact same words and that was that,
(05:12):
and so she's on board with this as well. And
she and Bobby Junior have also both signed a letter
which just came out recently calling for reinvestigations of this homicide,
the killing of President Kennedy, the killing of Martin Luther King,
and the killing of Malcolm X. Yeah, let's talk about
that a little bit, because this is the other big
news or bigger news in the case that just came
(05:33):
out recently. This is from January twenty five, twenty nineteen.
Kennedy King, Malcolm X. Relatives and scholars seek new assassination probes.
So there are a number of authors and scholars and
family members. A lot of them have different ideas about
what happened to Martin Luther King, or who killed John
(05:55):
Kennedy or who killed Bobby Kennedy. They all agreed in
this decante to come forward united as one group to
say you, regardless of our differences on who we think
might be responsible, we all agree these cases need to
be reinvestigated. The records needed to be released and reopened,
(06:16):
and an independent body, not connected with the local police,
not connected with the FBI needs to revisit these cases.
Because of the giant questions, and so sixty people signed it,
including Bobby and Kathleen Kennedy, including Bill Klaiber. It's been
(06:37):
on your show, not dam Moldea. Paul Schreide, who was
standing behind Bobby Kennedy was shot in the head and survived.
People that have written about Malcolm X, people that have
written about Martin Luther King. That's a pretty interesting document.
And it came out on Martin Luther King Day and
co written by mister Willinski, that's correct, a very smart
(07:01):
guy who was Bobby Kennedy's speechwriter, and he helped draft
this letter and circulated it around to the various folks.
And we're calling for a truth and reconciliation committee similar
to what was done in South Africa. Their common goal,
(07:22):
they're they're stated, one objective is give us more access,
give us more stuff. So in that sense, I think
it was a good idea, even if only one of them,
you know, gets into the CIA archives. To me, maybe
one of the most powerful incentives about this would be
(07:47):
some sort of rhyme or reason to the examination of
these facts, right, because I think when the majority of
the researchers are coming at it with a very kind
of uh maybe maybe a narrow view potentially, or what's
what's what's good evidence to one person may not be
(08:07):
good evidence to somebody else. And so it gets very
tricky because I think the people that wouldn't necessarily agree
with this would would say, like, people are going to
pour over this stuff and find all sorts of connections
that don't necessarily move the case forward. Yeah. I agree
with all of that, that it could be a mess,
But people like you and in the information game, we
(08:31):
like all the info we can get and then let
us sort it out from there. Alrighty um, I'm happy
to talk about RFK more. Well, I'm not nearly the
you know, the expert that you guys are. I haven't
spent as much time on it probably as you and
I certainly haven't motored around the country with Bill Klaibur
(08:53):
and Dan all day and all the expert experts. So sure, sure, No,
I know and I and I know that. I mean,
I'm I'm hesitant to get like into, like, you know,
a discussion of what we both think about it, you know,
And so I feel like I sort of I'm with
you on that. I sort of said what I thought
about it in the show and like, you know, everybody
(09:16):
listened to it. They either agree with me or they
don't agree with me. I mean, I think that I'm
just going to keep learning and keep pushing and trying
to maintain people's interest in this case because I think
it could quite possibly be an unsolved Thomas. I might
be wrong. So hand might have done it. He might
have been putting a solo on all these all these years,
(09:39):
but it could possibly be a wrongful conviction. Oh hey,
what do you think? What was your thing on Deadline?
The new story? Uh? That? Uh? Some Jamaican scammer guy
called He calls old folks in America and tells them
that they've won the lotter if they send him a
(10:01):
few thousand dollars. Sort of an old scam, but it worked.
And so a few years back, this guy biles up
this ninety year old guy in Washington and starts working
on him. And it turns out it's William Webster, who
was used to be the head of the FBI and
the CIA, and so William Webster, still sharp at ninety,
(10:22):
calls the FBI up and they say, well, why don't
you call the dude back tomorrow and we'll tape it
and they did, and I got that and I'll send
it to you now. Tom sent me the tape of
William Webster, this old spy basically out scamming, this Jamaican scammer,
(10:46):
and it was one of the best things I've ever heard,
and so fun to listen to, so much fun that
I just wanted to share with you. So I called
Tom back, and we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna
play the tape after the break. Mister Morgan please, yes, Yes,
(11:19):
is this mister Morgan. Yes, is it mister Webster, Yes,
it is. Yeah, this is mister Morgan, the manager. Oh God,
I'm so glad you're called. Well, I'm sorry. I've been
occupied with things that I were working at it, but
I've misplaced some notes and I wanted to get a
few things straight. I wanted to give you my make
sure you had my email number. Yeah, your secretary. Your
(11:41):
secretary gave me. So. Who is William Webster. William Upster
is a former federal prosecutor and federal judge in Saint
Louis and then he was made the head of the
FBI and ran that job for a number of years,
and then he was asked I believe by President Reagan
to take over the ci A and so moved from
(12:02):
the FBI to the CIA. And he's the only guy
to ever have held both jobs head of the FBI
n head of the CIA. And he is now ninety
four and actually today is his ninety fifth birthday. Wowthday six.
There you go. And then who is Kneel Thomas. Keneil
(12:28):
Thomas is a resident of the Montego Bay area, which
is apparently the real hotbed for Jamaican phone, email and
mail scams. There's three different ways it's done. And it's
also a place in Jamaica where lists of names are
passed around of potential marks or targets, people that in
(12:49):
the US might be hit up for money successfully. So
he started calling Webster's home. Initially, he spoke to Webster's
wife Linda, who didn't really give him the time of day,
but apparently didn't say enough to get him to stop calling.
And so at one point William Webster himself picked up
(13:13):
the phone and made some notes and said, uh, you know,
why don't you let me call you back. Let me
call you back tomorrow. And Keneil gave him a phone
number and said his name was David Morgan. Webster calls
his pals at the FBI and says, why don't we
do a reverse sting or you call him back, We
(13:34):
listen in and we track it and we we you
get him to say incriminating things. And this was not
a difficult thing for William Webster to do. Now, first,
let me ask you some questions, because I get out
my notes. I want to be sure I've got all
all the facts straight. And you're mister David Morgan, Yes, yes,
(13:58):
And give me again the name of the company you
work for, Mega million, something like that, Yes, mega million,
mega million. Okay, and uh uh do you remember who
was my previous content? What was the scam? Exactly? That
that they were trying to run on Webster about the
(14:20):
scam is you have won the lottery And in this
case they actually used the word mega millions, and Webster
got him to say that in the phone call. What
was the cash amount of the cash amount of your bride? Yes,
the cash the total volly of the Howard it is
about seven it is about seventy that about seventy two million,
(14:44):
seventy two, seventy two million. You're the first place winner
and so The scam is, we can't send you the
money until you've paid the taxes on the fees, and
the taxes and the fees. We're going to be fift
thousand dollars on winnings of seventy two million that you're making. Guys, say, look,
(15:06):
you want to pay us fifty thousand, you get the
whole seventy two million. Tell me what I what I
need you need to do to claim the prize, all right?
What you need to do is to take in care,
you know, you know, in general to get it, you know,
because we are, just as you are, a winner, and
we need other winners, you know. So what I've been before,
you normally get a prize, you normally to pay a
(15:27):
percentage of about about fifty thousand dollars. All right, yeah,
that's what you're asking from me. Yes, yes, but he
cannot find that amount. He told me, what you think
you can cut, you can pay and there are people
that fall for that every day. It's very lucrative. It's amazing.
(15:47):
That's what I need to send that as a check. Yeah,
I certified checks. So what I've been when I call
your phone, your wife told me that she's in charge
of your account. Now, is that you just about for me?
That's just you must have been my secretary, Yeah, just
about to No, it's my my account. But no, don't
(16:07):
give her, don't give her. Don't give her an opportunity.
You're right guy, Well, we're big things. I want to
be sure that that. I want to be sure that
we don't fall into that trap. No, no, you're not
going to fall in nothing like that. But you're someone
that i'll respect. Listen, you used to be a judge
and ever so I respect you. I respect you, Hili, Well,
(16:27):
I appreciate that. What since he apparently had done some
googling of William Webster because he was aware that he
was an attorney and a judge and involved in homeland security. Right,
you're an important guy. You're an important guy, mister Webster. Yeah,
you're a great man. He was a judge, you was
an attorney. Right, it's commis he did a cursory amount
(16:52):
of research and came up with like a few and
no alarm bells. Though It's like you would think maybe
you wouldn't want to go after people that were had
been in law enforcement, right, even if they were just
an attorney. Uh, you know, or just a judge. Maybe
I will just pick the next guy. But no, you
know I'm taking this guy. Yeah no, yeah, we'll the
(17:14):
money that the money that they're going to send you off,
all the taxes will pay from debt. I see, all right, yeah, no,
uh yeah, I would appreciate it if you could send me.
I'm gonna give you my email number and send me
a copy of my lottery certificate that we want to
(17:34):
approving that I have won a prize. Your sort, No,
you won a prize. I just imagine that webster I meet.
In my mind, I don't know the guy, but in
my mind, I'd like to imagine this like old spy
who sort of misses the game a little bit, and
he's sort of like not you know, he's excited about this,
like you know, he's like going to take these guys down. Well,
(17:56):
I understand what you're saying, but will you send me
a copy of that rottery certificate sent to me? I'll
give you the email and he plays it so well,
oh the emailer you secretary gave to me? Yes, well
you already have that, that said, did I tell you?
Did I give you my email address already? And I
(18:16):
was like yeah, I got it. I got it. And
he's like, okay, all right, all right, but it's so smart.
I think that's exactly right. And I think when you
listen to the audio of his call, uh, he's he's
playing it really smart. Well I can, I can. I've
got to make I've got to make some financial arrangements here,
(18:36):
and uh, it's gonna take me a few weeks come
up with it. A few weeks. I'm afraid show no,
he no, he don't want you think and and you know,
playing it sort of the old Peter falk As Colombo
role of just explain this to me in one more time?
What exactly is that you want? And he is getting
(18:58):
the guy to incriminate himself on tape. You know what
I mean that? You can do it. I mean that,
or you can write something out right, you can be
a part, you can be a party, and you'd be
a party. You can be a party to mean them
all right? What how much is a part you can
cover with? About twenty thousand northern the mean time? All right,
I'm not sure I'm gonna it's gonna be it's gonna
be difficult. He just sort of kept him on the line.
(19:21):
And got him talking demanding money and giving his email
address and the phone number, and I el yes, Kenny L. Thomas, okay,
and I E L. Thomas. Yeah. That come now. That
is what I don't understand, is that out looks a
(19:42):
new No. It is it is it is one of
the news. That was enough information for you know, an
attempt at extortion charge and that that was just a warrant.
That was a shoe. They did not ever go to
Jamaica and pick up mister Thomas. Uh, they you know,
just entered the war, warn in the system in case
he ever came into this country. And sure enough, he
(20:04):
did come into this country towards the end of twenty
seventeen and was nabbed at the airport in New York
a few months later. Thomas pled guilty in October twenty
seventeen and was given six years. When Webster and his
wife showed up in the courtroom to plead with the
(20:28):
judge to throw the book at him, called the wrong guy.
The market for scammers with older people needed to be addressed,
and they needed to be warned, but they needed to
understand the issues. So what should people do, Like, what
(20:54):
do you do if you think you are a loved
one is being a victim of a fishing scam. The
FBI actually has a website where you can submit complaints
and information to the Internet Crime Complaint Center, the IC three,
and the website is www dot IC three dot gov
(21:15):
and the government says that it got to IC three
received a total of over three hundred thousand complaints for
this stuff in twenty seventeen, with losses in excess of
one point four billion dollars, So it obviously works well
(21:36):
if anyone listening, uh, you know, tapes themselves reverse stinging scammers.
I would love to hear the tape because it's one
of my favorite that favorite things to listen to. Funny enough,
I never knew this as a genre, but I'm in
and I'll do a good story about it in the post.
There you go, double threat. Thanks, we're making the time again. Sureman,
(22:02):
good talking to you. Thanks, take it easy, bye, y'all.
You know my crimetown is me, Zach Stewart Pontier, and
Mark Smirling. The RFK Tapes is made in partnership with
Cadence thirteen. This episode was produced by me and Kevin Shephard,
(22:31):
our senior producer is Austin Mitchell editing by Mark Smirling Joe.
This episode was mixed by Sam Baer with music by
Kenny Quciak, music supervision by Josh Kessler and Dylan Bostick
and Heavy Duty Projects. Our title track is Maria Tambien
(22:51):
by Crumben. Our credit track this week is Money Talks
by Mister Wiggles. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Thanks to
Emily Wiedemann, Green Card Pictures, Alsandro Santoro, Bill Klaiber and
the team at Kaden's thirteen. Had a blast hanging out
with you guys in Austin, Texas. Thanks for dinner, m
(23:15):
O n the keep an eye on our feet. We
are dropping a trailer for our new show, Crimetown Presents
The Ballad of Billy Balls next week in the first
two episodes premiere March twenty eight. Thanks. I'm just gonna
let this song play out because it's a great song.
(23:37):
Come on Talks. I'm on the in talks in ta
I'm on the talks, And come on the Talks wool
upon the in Talk in t you said, I'm on
(23:59):
the talk said, if you don't have that gre stuff
a breathant come on the talks Woo. I'm gone to talk.
Ain't nobody tell you that I'm money talks. And if
you don't have that stuff the time, breathing time, come
(24:23):
on and talks. Woo. I'm onny It talks. I ain't
nobody tell you that I'm gone talks. And if you
don't have that grea stuff time
Joshington Post. Tom Jackman, Hey, Tom, Zack start Pontier, Hey Man, Hey,
So I just was wanting to talk to you about
your writing in the RFKA case. So is it okay
if I record the conversation? Absolutely? I was just gonna say,
let me know when Well, how long have you been
(00:26):
at the Post? Just I've been at the Post for
twenty years. This is Tom Jackman. He's a reporter at
the Washington Post on the true crime beat, and he's
written a bunch of articles recently about the RFK case.
And so, how do you first get onto the RFK story? Oh? Yeah,
I know, I remember. So I was doing the story
(00:47):
on the fiftieth anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther
King and speaking to his family members and folks associated
with that case who believed that James Earl Ray was
wrongly convicted of being the lone government in that case.
And the last lawyer for James Earl Ray as a
fellow named doctor William Pepper who lives in New York.
(01:10):
RFK tapes listeners may remember William Pepper as Sir Hans
Sir Hans attorney current attorney from episode six of the
season Pepper gave Tom the brief he'd filed on Sir
Hans's behalf, and I read it and began reading more,
and began reading the book, starting with Dan Moldea's book,
and then onto the books to think that Dan Mouldea
(01:33):
got it wrong, and then took it from there, talking
to both sides as tired old legacy media will do,
and wound up writing a four part series about it,
which led with an interview with Robert Kennedy Jr. Who
disclosed to me that he had met with Sir Hand
in prison in December of twenty seventeen. Today and the
(02:00):
show a conversation with Washington Post reporter Tom Jackman about
what's going on with the RFK case today, and then
Tom tells me about one of his other recent articles,
a story about a spy and a Jamaican scammer all
caught on a wire tap, Zack Stuart Ponzier. This is
(02:20):
the RFK tapes. Robert Kennedy Jr. Told The Washington Post
that once he saw the autopsy report quote, I didn't
feel it was something I could dismiss. I was disturbed
the wrong person might have been convicted of killing my
(02:43):
father Tony Ducopole is here, Tony, good morning, Good morning.
I didn't know that that was coming. There were apparently
a lot of people in that circle that knew that
he had met with Sir Hand, but they were sworn
to secrecy, and he just decided to tell me. So
that changed the orientation of the article from sort of
(03:03):
a historical piece to this is happening now. Bobby Kennedy
Junior believes in the innocence of Sirhan and is willing
to push for it now. Anybody who is the autopsy
report is it's hard to believe that Sir Hand shot
my dad, that he is all that, because Sirhan was
(03:24):
always in front of my father, and yet all shots,
all the four shots that hit my father came from
behind him. That leads you to conclude what all I
don't have any conclusion, you know, I I mean, in
my opinion, is really irrelevant. What's important is what the
(03:44):
facts saying, what the autopsy says, the ballistic eminence, and
what the eye witness citizen. I've asked for a reinvestigation
of it, of the murder. That's powerful. I mean, the
Kennedy family still holds, you know, a large sway over
this country, and Bobby Kennedy Jr. Has done a lot
(04:06):
to try to maintain that. And so to have him
saying I think this guy's wrongly convicted. He didn't say
it quite so bluntly last year. He did say in
this most recent article, sir hand just flat didn't do it.
But it's a big step. You know, that's the victim's family.
You break it down to, this is a crime, Bobby
(04:28):
Kennedy is the victim. Putting aside the massive implications of
a Kennedy killed on the verge of the presidency, here's
the homicide victim's family saying we don't think the defendant
is guilty, and it's a Kennedy. It's just monumental. Yeah.
And it should be noted that Kathleen Kennedy Towns and
(04:50):
his sister, the former lieutenant governor of Maryland, initially wouldn't
talk to me and didn't want to offer a comment
on this. Then after the story came out, the Boston
Globe called her up and said what do you think?
And she said, well, I think there should be a
new investigation. And so I called her up and she
told me the exact same words and that was that,
(05:12):
and so she's on board with this as well. And
she and Bobby Junior have also both signed a letter
which just came out recently calling for reinvestigations of this homicide,
the killing of President Kennedy, the killing of Martin Luther King,
and the killing of Malcolm X. Yeah, let's talk about
that a little bit, because this is the other big
news or bigger news in the case that just came
(05:33):
out recently. This is from January twenty five, twenty nineteen.
Kennedy King, Malcolm X. Relatives and scholars seek new assassination probes.
So there are a number of authors and scholars and
family members. A lot of them have different ideas about
what happened to Martin Luther King, or who killed John
(05:55):
Kennedy or who killed Bobby Kennedy. They all agreed in
this decante to come forward united as one group to
say you, regardless of our differences on who we think
might be responsible, we all agree these cases need to
be reinvestigated. The records needed to be released and reopened,
(06:16):
and an independent body, not connected with the local police,
not connected with the FBI needs to revisit these cases.
Because of the giant questions, and so sixty people signed it,
including Bobby and Kathleen Kennedy, including Bill Klaiber. It's been
(06:37):
on your show, not dam Moldea. Paul Schreide, who was
standing behind Bobby Kennedy was shot in the head and survived.
People that have written about Malcolm X, people that have
written about Martin Luther King. That's a pretty interesting document.
And it came out on Martin Luther King Day and
co written by mister Willinski, that's correct, a very smart
(07:01):
guy who was Bobby Kennedy's speechwriter, and he helped draft
this letter and circulated it around to the various folks.
And we're calling for a truth and reconciliation committee similar
to what was done in South Africa. Their common goal,
(07:22):
they're they're stated, one objective is give us more access,
give us more stuff. So in that sense, I think
it was a good idea, even if only one of them,
you know, gets into the CIA archives. To me, maybe
one of the most powerful incentives about this would be
(07:47):
some sort of rhyme or reason to the examination of
these facts, right, because I think when the majority of
the researchers are coming at it with a very kind
of uh maybe maybe a narrow view potentially, or what's
what's what's good evidence to one person may not be
(08:07):
good evidence to somebody else. And so it gets very
tricky because I think the people that wouldn't necessarily agree
with this would would say, like, people are going to
pour over this stuff and find all sorts of connections
that don't necessarily move the case forward. Yeah. I agree
with all of that, that it could be a mess,
But people like you and in the information game, we
(08:31):
like all the info we can get and then let
us sort it out from there. Alrighty um, I'm happy
to talk about RFK more. Well, I'm not nearly the
you know, the expert that you guys are. I haven't
spent as much time on it probably as you and
I certainly haven't motored around the country with Bill Klaibur
(08:53):
and Dan all day and all the expert experts. So sure, sure, No,
I know and I and I know that. I mean,
I'm I'm hesitant to get like into, like, you know,
a discussion of what we both think about it, you know,
And so I feel like I sort of I'm with
you on that. I sort of said what I thought
about it in the show and like, you know, everybody
(09:16):
listened to it. They either agree with me or they
don't agree with me. I mean, I think that I'm
just going to keep learning and keep pushing and trying
to maintain people's interest in this case because I think
it could quite possibly be an unsolved Thomas. I might
be wrong. So hand might have done it. He might
have been putting a solo on all these all these years,
(09:39):
but it could possibly be a wrongful conviction. Oh hey,
what do you think? What was your thing on Deadline?
The new story? Uh? That? Uh? Some Jamaican scammer guy
called He calls old folks in America and tells them
that they've won the lotter if they send him a
(10:01):
few thousand dollars. Sort of an old scam, but it worked.
And so a few years back, this guy biles up
this ninety year old guy in Washington and starts working
on him. And it turns out it's William Webster, who
was used to be the head of the FBI and
the CIA, and so William Webster, still sharp at ninety,
(10:22):
calls the FBI up and they say, well, why don't
you call the dude back tomorrow and we'll tape it
and they did, and I got that and I'll send
it to you now. Tom sent me the tape of
William Webster, this old spy basically out scamming, this Jamaican scammer,
(10:46):
and it was one of the best things I've ever heard,
and so fun to listen to, so much fun that
I just wanted to share with you. So I called
Tom back, and we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna
play the tape after the break. Mister Morgan please, yes, Yes,
(11:19):
is this mister Morgan. Yes, is it mister Webster, Yes,
it is. Yeah, this is mister Morgan, the manager. Oh God,
I'm so glad you're called. Well, I'm sorry. I've been
occupied with things that I were working at it, but
I've misplaced some notes and I wanted to get a
few things straight. I wanted to give you my make
sure you had my email number. Yeah, your secretary. Your
(11:41):
secretary gave me. So. Who is William Webster. William Upster
is a former federal prosecutor and federal judge in Saint
Louis and then he was made the head of the
FBI and ran that job for a number of years,
and then he was asked I believe by President Reagan
to take over the ci A and so moved from
(12:02):
the FBI to the CIA. And he's the only guy
to ever have held both jobs head of the FBI
n head of the CIA. And he is now ninety
four and actually today is his ninety fifth birthday. Wowthday six.
There you go. And then who is Kneel Thomas. Keneil
(12:28):
Thomas is a resident of the Montego Bay area, which
is apparently the real hotbed for Jamaican phone, email and
mail scams. There's three different ways it's done. And it's
also a place in Jamaica where lists of names are
passed around of potential marks or targets, people that in
(12:49):
the US might be hit up for money successfully. So
he started calling Webster's home. Initially, he spoke to Webster's
wife Linda, who didn't really give him the time of day,
but apparently didn't say enough to get him to stop calling.
And so at one point William Webster himself picked up
(13:13):
the phone and made some notes and said, uh, you know,
why don't you let me call you back. Let me
call you back tomorrow. And Keneil gave him a phone
number and said his name was David Morgan. Webster calls
his pals at the FBI and says, why don't we
do a reverse sting or you call him back, We
(13:34):
listen in and we track it and we we you
get him to say incriminating things. And this was not
a difficult thing for William Webster to do. Now, first,
let me ask you some questions, because I get out
my notes. I want to be sure I've got all
all the facts straight. And you're mister David Morgan, Yes, yes,
(13:58):
And give me again the name of the company you
work for, Mega million, something like that, Yes, mega million,
mega million. Okay, and uh uh do you remember who
was my previous content? What was the scam? Exactly? That
that they were trying to run on Webster about the
(14:20):
scam is you have won the lottery And in this
case they actually used the word mega millions, and Webster
got him to say that in the phone call. What
was the cash amount of the cash amount of your bride? Yes,
the cash the total volly of the Howard it is
about seven it is about seventy that about seventy two million,
(14:44):
seventy two, seventy two million. You're the first place winner
and so The scam is, we can't send you the
money until you've paid the taxes on the fees, and
the taxes and the fees. We're going to be fift
thousand dollars on winnings of seventy two million that you're making. Guys, say, look,
(15:06):
you want to pay us fifty thousand, you get the
whole seventy two million. Tell me what I what I
need you need to do to claim the prize, all right?
What you need to do is to take in care,
you know, you know, in general to get it, you know,
because we are, just as you are, a winner, and
we need other winners, you know. So what I've been before,
you normally get a prize, you normally to pay a
(15:27):
percentage of about about fifty thousand dollars. All right, yeah,
that's what you're asking from me. Yes, yes, but he
cannot find that amount. He told me, what you think
you can cut, you can pay and there are people
that fall for that every day. It's very lucrative. It's amazing.
(15:47):
That's what I need to send that as a check. Yeah,
I certified checks. So what I've been when I call
your phone, your wife told me that she's in charge
of your account. Now, is that you just about for me?
That's just you must have been my secretary, Yeah, just
about to No, it's my my account. But no, don't
(16:07):
give her, don't give her. Don't give her an opportunity.
You're right guy, Well, we're big things. I want to
be sure that that. I want to be sure that
we don't fall into that trap. No, no, you're not
going to fall in nothing like that. But you're someone
that i'll respect. Listen, you used to be a judge
and ever so I respect you. I respect you, Hili, Well,
(16:27):
I appreciate that. What since he apparently had done some
googling of William Webster because he was aware that he
was an attorney and a judge and involved in homeland security. Right,
you're an important guy. You're an important guy, mister Webster. Yeah,
you're a great man. He was a judge, you was
an attorney. Right, it's commis he did a cursory amount
(16:52):
of research and came up with like a few and
no alarm bells. Though It's like you would think maybe
you wouldn't want to go after people that were had
been in law enforcement, right, even if they were just
an attorney. Uh, you know, or just a judge. Maybe
I will just pick the next guy. But no, you
know I'm taking this guy. Yeah no, yeah, we'll the
(17:14):
money that the money that they're going to send you off,
all the taxes will pay from debt. I see, all right, yeah, no,
uh yeah, I would appreciate it if you could send me.
I'm gonna give you my email number and send me
a copy of my lottery certificate that we want to
(17:34):
approving that I have won a prize. Your sort, No,
you won a prize. I just imagine that webster I meet.
In my mind, I don't know the guy, but in
my mind, I'd like to imagine this like old spy
who sort of misses the game a little bit, and
he's sort of like not you know, he's excited about this,
like you know, he's like going to take these guys down. Well,
(17:56):
I understand what you're saying, but will you send me
a copy of that rottery certificate sent to me? I'll
give you the email and he plays it so well,
oh the emailer you secretary gave to me? Yes, well
you already have that, that said, did I tell you?
Did I give you my email address already? And I
(18:16):
was like yeah, I got it. I got it. And
he's like, okay, all right, all right, but it's so smart.
I think that's exactly right. And I think when you
listen to the audio of his call, uh, he's he's
playing it really smart. Well I can, I can. I've
got to make I've got to make some financial arrangements here,
(18:36):
and uh, it's gonna take me a few weeks come
up with it. A few weeks. I'm afraid show no,
he no, he don't want you think and and you know,
playing it sort of the old Peter falk As Colombo
role of just explain this to me in one more time?
What exactly is that you want? And he is getting
(18:58):
the guy to incriminate himself on tape. You know what
I mean that? You can do it. I mean that,
or you can write something out right, you can be
a part, you can be a party, and you'd be
a party. You can be a party to mean them
all right? What how much is a part you can
cover with? About twenty thousand northern the mean time? All right,
I'm not sure I'm gonna it's gonna be it's gonna
be difficult. He just sort of kept him on the line.
(19:21):
And got him talking demanding money and giving his email
address and the phone number, and I el yes, Kenny L. Thomas, okay,
and I E L. Thomas. Yeah. That come now. That
is what I don't understand, is that out looks a
(19:42):
new No. It is it is it is one of
the news. That was enough information for you know, an
attempt at extortion charge and that that was just a warrant.
That was a shoe. They did not ever go to
Jamaica and pick up mister Thomas. Uh, they you know,
just entered the war, warn in the system in case
he ever came into this country. And sure enough, he
(20:04):
did come into this country towards the end of twenty
seventeen and was nabbed at the airport in New York
a few months later. Thomas pled guilty in October twenty
seventeen and was given six years. When Webster and his
wife showed up in the courtroom to plead with the
(20:28):
judge to throw the book at him, called the wrong guy.
The market for scammers with older people needed to be addressed,
and they needed to be warned, but they needed to
understand the issues. So what should people do, Like, what
(20:54):
do you do if you think you are a loved
one is being a victim of a fishing scam. The
FBI actually has a website where you can submit complaints
and information to the Internet Crime Complaint Center, the IC three,
and the website is www dot IC three dot gov
(21:15):
and the government says that it got to IC three
received a total of over three hundred thousand complaints for
this stuff in twenty seventeen, with losses in excess of
one point four billion dollars, So it obviously works well
(21:36):
if anyone listening, uh, you know, tapes themselves reverse stinging scammers.
I would love to hear the tape because it's one
of my favorite that favorite things to listen to. Funny enough,
I never knew this as a genre, but I'm in
and I'll do a good story about it in the post.
There you go, double threat. Thanks, we're making the time again. Sureman,
(22:02):
good talking to you. Thanks, take it easy, bye, y'all.
You know my crimetown is me, Zach Stewart Pontier, and
Mark Smirling. The RFK Tapes is made in partnership with
Cadence thirteen. This episode was produced by me and Kevin Shephard,
(22:31):
our senior producer is Austin Mitchell editing by Mark Smirling Joe.
This episode was mixed by Sam Baer with music by
Kenny Quciak, music supervision by Josh Kessler and Dylan Bostick
and Heavy Duty Projects. Our title track is Maria Tambien
(22:51):
by Crumben. Our credit track this week is Money Talks
by Mister Wiggles. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Thanks to
Emily Wiedemann, Green Card Pictures, Alsandro Santoro, Bill Klaiber and
the team at Kaden's thirteen. Had a blast hanging out
with you guys in Austin, Texas. Thanks for dinner, m
(23:15):
O n the keep an eye on our feet. We
are dropping a trailer for our new show, Crimetown Presents
The Ballad of Billy Balls next week in the first
two episodes premiere March twenty eight. Thanks. I'm just gonna
let this song play out because it's a great song.
(23:37):
Come on Talks. I'm on the in talks in ta
I'm on the talks, And come on the Talks wool
upon the in Talk in t you said, I'm on
(23:59):
the talk said, if you don't have that gre stuff
a breathant come on the talks Woo. I'm gone to talk.
Ain't nobody tell you that I'm money talks. And if
you don't have that stuff the time, breathing time, come
(24:23):
on and talks. Woo. I'm onny It talks. I ain't
nobody tell you that I'm gone talks. And if you
don't have that grea stuff time
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