March 1, 2022 • 33 mins
Randa Jarrar says her skin is neither thick or thin when it comes to attacks on her writing. Roxane and Randa explore how to stay creative under difficult circumstances. Plus, Roxane reflects on the toll her haters have taken on her and her writing.
Mentions:
- Randa Jarrar’s books: https://randajarrar.com/home/books/
Credits: Curtis Fox is the producer. Yessenia Moreno is the intern. Production help from Kaitlyn Adams and Meg Pillow. Theme music by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In her bigheartedness, Be My Neighbor installation at the Museum
of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles. Pipolotti Wrist has created
a small world for people to explore. There are long
hanging strings of light that change colors blue to purple,
to red to white. You can stand in the middle
of these hundreds of strings of light as they change
(00:23):
color over and over, and the effect is hypnotic. There
are structures throughout the installation their houses but not quite,
and inside there are rooms that are familiar but not quite.
It's all deeply immersive, full of intense color and saturated imagery.
In one room, an oversized couch and an armchair and lamp,
(00:46):
making anyone who sits on the furniture feel small as
you would canto, a tiny television with a video plane
and unexpected places. There are neon signs saying things like
help me. The exhibit is on view until June six,
so if you're in Los Angeles, get yourself to mocha
and be Pipolotti Risks Neighbor from Luminary. This is the
(01:13):
Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast of your Dreams.
I Am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist. On this
week's agenda, I'm thinking about what it takes to be
an artist on your own terms. Most of us who
are creative like to think of ourselves as independent, freethinking,
uncompromising when it comes to our values. Lately, though, I
(01:37):
have been struggling beyond just the usual challenges of writer's
block and overwhelm, I have grown weary of all of
the noise that comes with publishing work. I still love writing,
I love writing for myself and going deep into the zone.
But the further I get in my career, the more
I am intimately aware that there is an audience far
(01:58):
vaster than I care to imagine, that will engage with
my work for better and worse, and some of that
engagement has become quite painful. There, of course, the death
threats and blah blah blah, the kind where you're not
sure they are serious, but you can't really take the
chance that they're not. There are the insults and endless
(02:19):
barrage for me of fat jokes and insults, because there
is a sentiment in some quarters that if you are fat,
you shouldn't have opinions, and you certainly shouldn't share them.
You can't stand up for what you believe your societal burden.
Who should live your fat life silently in shame, which
I of course refused to do. Over the past few weeks,
(02:39):
men mostly have sent me pictures of hippo's, saying they
found my picture so clever. They have told me I
shouldn't talk about public health when I am they assume
so profoundly unhealthy. They have called me names. They've told
me I'm disgusting. They have reached me via email at
several different addresses. They've tried d M s on Instagram.
(03:00):
They've mentioned me on Twitter so I can see their name.
They've ranted about me on internet forums. It is exhausting.
Now I do what I can to filter out most
of this hatred because it's unproductive. It doesn't help me,
it isn't good faith criticism, and exposing myself to it
only makes me miserable. But some of it does get
(03:20):
under my skin. I am human, I have my tender places. Increasingly,
I find myself scared to write, and I never in
my life that I would say something like that. Here
I am at my desk scared to broach certain subjects.
It has been five years since my last book was published,
and I realized I've been holding my next two books
(03:42):
back books I'm actually pretty proud of because I just
don't want to deal with the bullshit admitting that makes
me angry at myself, for having thin skin, for caring
too much what people think, for not having the stamina
to be a punching bag for angry people who project
their frustrations with their own lives onto me. In these
moments when I try to find the courage to forge
(04:03):
ahead despite what I know will come when I put
writing into the world, I looked to writers I admire
and respect who are intelligent and provocative and seemingly fearless
when standing in their truth and committing to their artistic practice.
One such person is the luminous Run to Gerar. If
you haven't read Runda Gerar, now would be a good
(04:25):
time to start. Her first novel, A Map of Home,
was a coming of age novel about an Arab American
girl during the First Gulf War. Her second book, Him
Me Muhammad Ali, was a collection of short stories, and
last year she came out with an essay collection called
Love is an ex Country, which is really a beautiful
(04:46):
memoir told through a cross country road Trip. Runda brings
many perspectives into her writing. She is queer and writes
candidly about sex and kink and pleasure and desire. She
is Arab and grew up Muslim. She is a proud
fat fem. In other words, she is an outsider in
more ways than run, and her writing revels in this
(05:07):
and an outspokenness beyond her writing. She is a tenured
professor at Fresno State University, a filmmaker, screenwriter, actor, activist,
and delightful human. She is unapologetic about her politics and
unwavering and calling out injustice. And of course, she is
also a dear friend, and I wanted to talk to
her about living in artistic life on her own terms,
(05:29):
which she has thus far most emphatically done. Run to Gerard,
Welcome to the Roxanne gay Agenda. Oh my god, the
gay agenda, Agenda, Agenda. There's so many just ways to
play with that word. Oh my god. Thank you for
having me and for being you. Go on, how are
(05:52):
you doing today? I'm good. I'm nodding my head along
to everything you're saying and feeling you really, yes, you know,
I know that you've been through it many a time.
So one of the first encounters I had with Rhonda.
We've been friends for a very long time, but I
published an essay that she wrote about white women belly dancing,
(06:13):
and that was maybe a decade ago. That was literally
a decade ago. I still get mail. It was one
of the most incendiary, apparently pieces I have ever published.
And at the time, I just thought, oh, this is
a nice little thought about belly dancing, and I really
appreciate this essay. It never occurred to me that people
were going to respond. Do you remember that essay, Runda?
(06:35):
Of course I remember. I remember writing it for you,
like you were working at Salon and you said, oh,
you know, I'm I'm doing these essays by feminists. Do
you have anything to say? And I had just kind
of been annoyed by a belly dancer interrupting a dinner
and you know, doing what I call maybe like a
(06:58):
like a costume of being Arab, Like she was definitely white,
but she had dyed her hair and had makeup on
her eyes to make her look more Arab, etcetera. And
I was just like so annoyed by it. And I
was still annoyed by it. So I just thought, I'll
just write about how I don't like cultural appropriation and
how yes, I understand that anyone can belly dance, but
(07:19):
should you really pretend to be Arab belly dancing? And
can you do it in a way that's more respectful?
And people were just so angry, so angry, like violently angry.
I mean, I've never gotten more hate mail. And that's
saying something. And what struck me was he that people
(07:40):
didn't really read what you wrote right and be White
people in particular cannot stand being told no, right right,
that something is not theirs. Their response is usually like,
well it's everybody's and it's like, okay, well can it
just be if I'm on the margins and this is
some thing that I care about, can it just be
(08:02):
mine for a moment, Like can you not pretend to
be me and then be part of a culture that
is consistently beginning wars, you know, starting fights and bombing
people like it's not fun? No, it isn't. Did you
anticipate that kind of a reaction? Did you know that
people were going to feel some kind of way? Not
(08:23):
at all. I just thought, I'm talking about belly dancing.
I called it why I can't stand white belly dancers,
and the title just turned into why I hate white
belly dancers for some people. I never used the word
hate ever, but it just kept continuously being used when
people were discussing this. I got media requests from, like,
(08:46):
you know, right wing sources. I got media requests from
people who are pretending to be in the media but
we're actually white belly dancers that I did not know.
That is incredibly extra. Oh yeah, I got sand mail
that was kind of like fake fan mail where they
start by saying, like, I really adore you when you're writing,
(09:07):
but why would you say that people can't belly dance?
Haven't you heard of Korean tacos? You know? They were
making these really not logical arguments about how well the
entire world is melded and remixed, like why are you
having a hard time with this particular thing you must
be you know, like what do you why are you
(09:29):
policing people? Yes, it was definitely eye opening, and I
too have gotten those emails that are stealth where they
start out saying something sane and normal and then it
takes a quick left turn into just psychosis. And I
always think hatred oh, man, I need to stop reading
my own email because nothing good is going to come
(09:51):
of this. Do you ever pause before you put that
kind of opinion, that kind of thought into the world,
opinions that are frankly normal and interesting and engaging, but
that people misinterpret willfully and then sort of get really
incensed about. I think after that particular thing happened, I
(10:13):
think you said, or the Salon editor in chief said,
why don't you write a follow up addressing what people
are saying? And a decade ago, you know, I was
in my thirties, like my bless my little heart. I
was like, yeah, let me double down, and so I did.
I wrote. The next essay I wrote was why I
still can't stand white belly Dancers? And I kind of
(10:35):
went through one by one with people's arguments and like
toward them, you know, two pieces, they're very easy to tear.
I have to say yes and links, and so I
just thought, yeah, I'll do that, and you know, it
got worse obviously. So I think that entire experience helped
me see that, Yes, there are times when you know,
(10:58):
whatever I have to say is going to be met
with anger or misunderstanding. You know. The thing about people
being committed to misunderstanding you is real, and so I've
learned several things. One is it's okay to take a
break and step back. Um, not from having opinions, thank god,
(11:18):
but from publishing them. Maybe if whoever's out there is
just going to be angry and to preserve myself and
to just care for myself. But I'm also angry that
when you do do that, there's this sense of victory
on the other side, like, oh, look, we got her
to be quiet. That's upsetting, But at the same time,
(11:40):
it's it's not true. It's just self preservation to step back. Yeah,
when did you first know you were creative? And what
did that look like? Um. I think one of my
memories that I'm very fond of that's a very queer memory,
(12:02):
is because I grew up in a country that was
very conservative in terms of women's bodies. I grew up
in Kuwait, and you know, all women's bodies were censored
on the cover of things or whatever. They would put
like black mark out on it. And I remember just
being five or six and I had this magazine and
(12:22):
I had women in it, and um, it was like
a fashion mag that my mom brought home and I
started cutting the clothes off because I thought if I
with a pair of scissors cut the clothes off, I
would see what was underneath. I would see what people
were wearing under their clothes. And my mom was like, no,
that's not how it works. This is a photograph. And
(12:45):
I just remember being really upset that I couldn't, you know,
like see I wanted to see what I wasn't supposed
to see. And I think that is probably such a
huge sort of like seed for why I'm creative. You
know that Curio City. Do you still find that you
want to see what you're not supposed to see all
(13:06):
the time? And where does your curiosity take you? It
takes me so many places. It takes me two, I guess,
voyeuristic moments in Dungeons. It takes me to being you know,
in an art space and being curious about the mechanics
(13:27):
of how something was created, you know, just watching a
film and instead of just enjoying it, wanting to see, like,
you know, is there was there really a boom in
that shot? Like the little imperfections that um, we're not
supposed to see. I think we can learn so much
from absolutely and when did you start to write and
(13:48):
what was your early writing? Like I was lucky enough
to have creative writing classes when I was in first, second, fifth,
seventh grade, and I think we had like once a
week and we had a notebook. And so that's when
I started writing. Like all of us right like very
early on, and then we just keep going. Those of
us who are still writers. I know that you eventually
(14:12):
would go on to get an m f A in
a very cold place. That's actually when I first came
upon your writing. You were writing a blog. Rock Slinger
was the blog, yes, And I have no idea how
I came across it, but I just remember thinking, oh,
my goodness, this person is someone I would want to
read endlessly. And you were also a single mother at
(14:35):
the time, and so how do you find and especially
back then, how did you find the energy to stay
committed to your art and also honor your commitment to
your child. So that m f A program was the
second m f A program I started. The first one
was set up in such a way that I didn't
(14:57):
feel like I could honor both my child and my work.
First of all, just like finding a place that would
financially support me so that I could be there for
him and for myself and for my art and didn't
have to work a nine to five. That was the
number one thing. Finding that Michigan program was really important.
And then you know, he would go to school. He
(15:18):
went to school from eight to three, and I didn't
really have classes every single day. So the days that
he was in school, when I didn't have classes, I
would write. It was always kind of like that with him,
Like he would go to school and I would write,
and then I would find something some way to earn
a living around that while he was home or while
he was sleeping. That was just a big part of it.
(15:40):
Sorting out the time, commitments and the finances, which I
think is characteristic of the writing life for most people,
like trying to balance life whatever that may be, however
it might look, with money, and then finding space for creativity.
One of the things that strikes me about you is
(16:02):
you're always doing something creative. It's always happening, whether it's filmmaking.
Every time I talk to you, you're like, oh, I'm
off to make a movie or something. I'm painting something, yes,
or I'm drawing something. And so now that you you
know your child is an adult now, thank god you
(16:25):
are a successful writer. How do you still find that
creative spark? It is a little bit harder now that
I have more time, right, It's it's really interesting, like
now that I have a little bit more time and
definitely space because my you know, some like most young
people in America, like lived at home for a long time.
(16:47):
Now that I don't feel like I have to sneak
my writing and sometimes I don't get any writing done.
It definitely worried me when he first moved out because
I was just basically like partying and going to look
at our and going on dates and just kind of
enjoying my my freedom since I did have him as
a teenager. But then I realized that that was all
(17:09):
just going to be part of what I was going
to write, like that I needed to live to have
more experiences to write about. And so I was like, oh,
this is all just part of the writing process. But
I do every single day, I think, do something creative,
and I will draw, or i will write something funny,
or i'll videotape something, or i'll edit something that I love,
(17:31):
you know, like I'll just try to make something. And
it just really helps me feel connected to myself and
to that younger self that was cutting out people's clothing,
you know, like I always have like a little college
thing by me, and like a little I have an
exact and if by me to college with. So just
(17:52):
doing low stakes things has been really important for me.
Things that I know I will not publish, things I
know I don't have to be good to be in
a gallery or a museum, just things for me to enjoy,
to you know, have fun with and not necessarily show. Yeah,
there's something incredibly freeing about low stakes creativity, and I
(18:13):
find myself wanting that more and more, like almost craving it,
because if I'm doing something that no one will ever
see and that will never be part of my work,
I can enjoy it in a way that I can't
necessarily enjoy something that's much higher stakes, where I have to,
(18:33):
you know, worry about what people are going to think.
So for me, one of those things is photography. And
I'm very very bad at it, very very bad. But
that's okay because I love holding the camera and being like,
look at me. You're also an incredible baker and an
incredible cook. And I tend to think of those things
as creative. Thank you, Thank you. You're one of my
(18:56):
favorite taste testers. I know you've been branching into filmmaking lately.
What are some of the pleasures of filmmaking and why
do you pursue it? Filmmaking for me is a chance
to finally like be on the other side of creating
something with moving images that honors my own experiences. Like,
(19:24):
like most of us, I grew up watching so much
television so much, and you know, I'm I'm not young,
so a lot of the TV that I watched was bad,
like really bad. Like I don't know if people remember,
but like we only have two channels when I was
growing up, And every time I think about that now
when I'm flipping through the hundreds of channels and then
(19:46):
all of the streamers, I remember like three channels and
one of them didn't even really come in. Yeah. People
just don't know, like what we like our struggle No us,
Jens know us, know us, know us. Even though I'm
not quite gen X, I'm write on the No, I'm not.
I'm I'm like one of those middle I'm late seventies.
(20:07):
So it's weird. Yeah. Yeah, so it's hard. Uh yeah,
so I like, you know, when I was younger, my
dad had a video camera, which was such a big deal.
Like none of my friends had video cameras at their house,
(20:28):
and video camera was just everything. Like we would make
fake ads basically tiktoking. Before TikTok, we were prehistoric t
you know, that's where we were, Uh yeah, And it
was just so much fun. It's fun to capture an image,
a moving image, and share it again and then manipulate it,
(20:50):
edit around it. It reminds me a lot of writing
fiction when we when we write fiction, we're providing everything.
We're doing the music, we're doing the shadowing, we're doing
the character development, the images, the setting, like all these
beautiful things that in film require so many different layers.
So it's just fun to take those layers apart and
(21:14):
work on them one by one, especially since it's just
not easy to find media about queer Palestinians, queer Egyptians
speaking in English and just being kinky or whatever it
is that we're doing. Right, I think that we've come forward,
We've we've moved ahead a little bit in terms of
(21:37):
representation of Muslims on film and television, But to be honest,
those people who tend to get those opportunities are men.
You know. I love Hassan Minaj, I love Ramy Yusef,
I love all these dudes that are getting these incredible opportunities.
But it's been much harder for people who aren't men
and people who are from people who are women to
(21:59):
get those kinds of bigger opportunities to share our stories.
And so for a long time I thought, well, I
have to get some sort of big deal, or I
have to do it the proper way, and my manager
would submit me to things and writer's rooms, etcetera for
other people's projects. And then at some point I realized
(22:20):
that I was surrounded by actors and filmmakers and editors
and gaffers, and they were all queer and amazing, and
most of them needed jobs. And so I was like,
why don't we just work together and make stuff, make
our own stuff, and try to make it with you know,
at a level or at equality that you know we're
proud of, which is difficult because things cost money, but
(22:44):
it is you know, that's the challenge I find with
filmmaking in l A, especially if you have friends in
l A, you you know people who can do pretty
much anything that needs to be done on a film set. Yes,
but cameras do cost money in addition to time. Everything
costs money, especially when you're making like independent work, that
(23:06):
money can be very hard to come by. It is.
I mean, you're right, the men do get the opportunities
much more bountifully than women do, which is not to
say that women don't. But and also white people. I mean,
you know, I'm talking about my brothers. Yeah, And so
it seems like community is a real engine for your
creativity as well. What does it mean for you to
(23:29):
be part of a creative community and how does it
help you to make I've I've been really into community
building for so long. As an undergrad, I didn't really
get to do that much because I had a child,
And so once I graduated, my my son got a
little bit older, I was able to really build the
(23:51):
kinds of communities that I wanted to be a part of.
So in Austin I had a very beautiful, rich community
of musicians, artists, lots of Arab Americans who wanted to
support each other. And then in Michigan, you know, building
a community with people out in Detroit and Dearborn and
(24:13):
working with West Asian and North African writers by running
a literary nonprofit UM, which is the most thankless work
I've ever done, but also the most satisfying. Like the
parties we would have, Oh my god, so amazing, so
much dancing, so much belly dancing by people who are
(24:34):
you know, genetically connected to belly dancing. Um. Yeah. So
community to me means like this kind of consistent threading
and kind of knitting with each other so or so
we are you know, I'll do a threat, another person
will do a threat, et cetera, until we can create
this like bigger canvas together. I mean, and you know
(24:56):
this like as someone who's like supported communities and U organizations,
like it doesn't get done by itself. Someone has to
always be pushing with someone else, Like it's just a
a bigger process that involves work for everyone but also
celebration for everyone. But yeah, and and honestly, as a
(25:18):
kinky person, to realizing that so much of what I
used to know, or what most of us know about
kink and b D s M is not true. You know,
most people don't engage in kink or b D s
M alone or casually. We have communities where we do that,
you know, and in the community we have different roles
(25:38):
that we play um and so kind of bringing that
humility and saying, in my community, what are the rules
that I can play, you know, and they're not always
going to be like the one who votes everyone. Yeah,
you're thinking exactly what I was. Well, you know, it's
(26:00):
interesting that you bring up kink because one of the
first things I found when I entered the kink community
was that so much of the energy of the kink
community happens in public spaces and happens with other people,
and not just in the act of performing or engaging
in kink, but because not everyone does it, you find
(26:23):
your people. And in addition to of course the parties
and all of that. And I don't know if they
still do this, but back in the day, they used
to do these things called munches, where you would just
go to a restaurant in the light of day or
at night, doesn't matter, and and engage with people in
your community, even if it wasn't about the thing that
holds you together. And as a person who is shy
(26:49):
and scarrett, well not anymore, but especially in my twenties,
scared of everything, to find people who were just going
to accept you no matter what, and who were willing
to socialize and look past your awkwardness and know that
you had something to offer. Was so helpful. It was
salvation in so many different ways. Absolutely, And now I
(27:15):
know you put a lot of energy into the world creatively.
Do you have a thick skin when it comes to
the ways that people engage with that work? Yes, and no,
I think that I have developed a thicker skin because
you know, like the example that we were talking about
with the belly dancing essay, right, like, at that point,
(27:38):
I'd never written a nonfiction piece that got hate mail.
I'd literally only written nonfiction pieces that people loved about,
you know, being a single mom or experiencing like awful
racism or whatever it is. Right, it was the first
time when I was like, oh, I might have stuff
to say that people don't want to hear, and so
(28:00):
I would say my skin at that point for that
particular thing was thin. But I really think it's important
to allow yourself some grace. You know, there are times
your skin will be thinner and there are times that
will thicken up your skin. And really there's no way
to predict what people are going to think or what
(28:22):
they're gonna say about your work. So for me, I'm
into having like a medium skin a little bit of both,
you know, like just I'm just so you were all
just human, right, We can't just be like, well, I
don't give a funk what people think. Yeah, sometimes I don't,
but I do understand why someone would just like leave
(28:44):
society and just right in a cottage for forty years
and then you know, upon their death we discover like
four amazing novels by them, Like, okay, cool, that's amazing,
but that's just not the life I want. You know,
this community help you in those times when where people
respond in a range of unpleasant ways to your work enormously.
(29:09):
It's hard. It's hard to stick up for people when
they're in an unpopular position. The people who do, I
find are very strong and incredible. You know. That's love,
like just showing up for someone and when when they
when they're not having a great time. You know, it's
easy to show up to a wedding, not always, but
it's easier to show up to something fun and big
(29:32):
and just enjoy. But it's not as easy to show
up when someone's having a really hard time. I find
that that is where a lot of those connections become
really strong um and the trust builds. Right. So I
think it's really really important to turn to community and
to allow them. It's not just that you need them,
(29:53):
it's that they also need you, like they need to
care for you. People need to care for each other.
It's something that's just part of who we are. And
allowing others to care for you is such a huge
it's a skill, you know, it is still you know.
That's it's interesting that you say that, because I think,
especially for some of us, it's it's actually easier to
(30:15):
show up than to allow people to show up for you,
which is certainly I'm something I'm still learning. And do
you allow people to show up for you? I do?
I do, and I've gotten a lot better at it
in the past. If they didn't show up in a
specific kind of way, I would be very annoyed. Ah,
(30:37):
But people are just imperfect. They're gonna say stupid ship,
They're gonna you know, mess up and and make mistakes.
And it really, to me is all about the intention.
What is the intention when someone shows up? Are they
intending to really be there for me? And how do
they show that, you know, is it consistent? So and
(30:58):
it can get really tricky because once you reach a
certain point, you know, as you know, like sometimes you worry,
Like for me, sometimes I'm like, do you really care
about me? Or do you need a letter of recommendation?
You know, like um, and that's a question. But but
that's not my business, right, that's actually not my business.
Like my business is to accept the love and have
(31:22):
good compassionate boundaries. So if someone's there for me and
everything is great, and then later they asked for a
litter of ref and I can't do it, I can
just have a boundary. Then you know, it's just like
revolutionary think of like oh wait, I can say no
and I can do it compassionately. And it's their business
whether they accept that no or not. Not mine. Absolutely, Yeah.
(31:46):
I just have one last question. What do you want
for yourself at this stage of your life? In this stage,
I mean either professionally or personally, Like, what are your
ambitions for yourself? Such a good question, Thank you. I
would really love to continue writing books and publishing them,
(32:08):
but mostly at this point I would really love to
get a chance to make a big film, just make
the kind of film that I dream of making, which
is sort of expansive and beautiful. I want to be
able to tell more stories in ways that I haven't before,
(32:31):
whether it be like on stage or in a book
or in film. I want to be able to have
the kind of or to continue to have the kind
of resilience to make those things happen, but also to
attract support for those things. So those are that's basically it.
You're the best friend. Thank you so so much for
(32:54):
joining me on the rock Same Gay Agenda. It's going
to be funny, the Gay Agenda. Thank you for having me.
You can keep up with me and the podcast on
social media on Twitter at r g a Y and
Instagram at Roxanne Gay seventy four. Our email is Roxanne
(33:15):
Gay Agenda at gmail dot com and we would love
to hear from you from Luminary. The Roxanne Gay Agenda
is produced by Curtis Fox. Our intern is Ysena Morena.
Production support is provided by Caitlin Adams and Meg Pillow.
I'm Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad Rummondist. Thank you so
very much for listening.
In her bigheartedness, Be My Neighbor installation at the Museum
of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles. Pipolotti Wrist has created
a small world for people to explore. There are long
hanging strings of light that change colors blue to purple,
to red to white. You can stand in the middle
of these hundreds of strings of light as they change
(00:23):
color over and over, and the effect is hypnotic. There
are structures throughout the installation their houses but not quite,
and inside there are rooms that are familiar but not quite.
It's all deeply immersive, full of intense color and saturated imagery.
In one room, an oversized couch and an armchair and lamp,
(00:46):
making anyone who sits on the furniture feel small as
you would canto, a tiny television with a video plane
and unexpected places. There are neon signs saying things like
help me. The exhibit is on view until June six,
so if you're in Los Angeles, get yourself to mocha
and be Pipolotti Risks Neighbor from Luminary. This is the
(01:13):
Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast of your Dreams.
I Am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist. On this
week's agenda, I'm thinking about what it takes to be
an artist on your own terms. Most of us who
are creative like to think of ourselves as independent, freethinking,
uncompromising when it comes to our values. Lately, though, I
(01:37):
have been struggling beyond just the usual challenges of writer's
block and overwhelm, I have grown weary of all of
the noise that comes with publishing work. I still love writing,
I love writing for myself and going deep into the zone.
But the further I get in my career, the more
I am intimately aware that there is an audience far
(01:58):
vaster than I care to imagine, that will engage with
my work for better and worse, and some of that
engagement has become quite painful. There, of course, the death
threats and blah blah blah, the kind where you're not
sure they are serious, but you can't really take the
chance that they're not. There are the insults and endless
(02:19):
barrage for me of fat jokes and insults, because there
is a sentiment in some quarters that if you are fat,
you shouldn't have opinions, and you certainly shouldn't share them.
You can't stand up for what you believe your societal burden.
Who should live your fat life silently in shame, which
I of course refused to do. Over the past few weeks,
(02:39):
men mostly have sent me pictures of hippo's, saying they
found my picture so clever. They have told me I
shouldn't talk about public health when I am they assume
so profoundly unhealthy. They have called me names. They've told
me I'm disgusting. They have reached me via email at
several different addresses. They've tried d M s on Instagram.
(03:00):
They've mentioned me on Twitter so I can see their name.
They've ranted about me on internet forums. It is exhausting.
Now I do what I can to filter out most
of this hatred because it's unproductive. It doesn't help me,
it isn't good faith criticism, and exposing myself to it
only makes me miserable. But some of it does get
(03:20):
under my skin. I am human, I have my tender places. Increasingly,
I find myself scared to write, and I never in
my life that I would say something like that. Here
I am at my desk scared to broach certain subjects.
It has been five years since my last book was published,
and I realized I've been holding my next two books
(03:42):
back books I'm actually pretty proud of because I just
don't want to deal with the bullshit admitting that makes
me angry at myself, for having thin skin, for caring
too much what people think, for not having the stamina
to be a punching bag for angry people who project
their frustrations with their own lives onto me. In these
moments when I try to find the courage to forge
(04:03):
ahead despite what I know will come when I put
writing into the world, I looked to writers I admire
and respect who are intelligent and provocative and seemingly fearless
when standing in their truth and committing to their artistic practice.
One such person is the luminous Run to Gerar. If
you haven't read Runda Gerar, now would be a good
(04:25):
time to start. Her first novel, A Map of Home,
was a coming of age novel about an Arab American
girl during the First Gulf War. Her second book, Him
Me Muhammad Ali, was a collection of short stories, and
last year she came out with an essay collection called
Love is an ex Country, which is really a beautiful
(04:46):
memoir told through a cross country road Trip. Runda brings
many perspectives into her writing. She is queer and writes
candidly about sex and kink and pleasure and desire. She
is Arab and grew up Muslim. She is a proud
fat fem. In other words, she is an outsider in
more ways than run, and her writing revels in this
(05:07):
and an outspokenness beyond her writing. She is a tenured
professor at Fresno State University, a filmmaker, screenwriter, actor, activist,
and delightful human. She is unapologetic about her politics and
unwavering and calling out injustice. And of course, she is
also a dear friend, and I wanted to talk to
her about living in artistic life on her own terms,
(05:29):
which she has thus far most emphatically done. Run to Gerard,
Welcome to the Roxanne gay Agenda. Oh my god, the
gay agenda, Agenda, Agenda. There's so many just ways to
play with that word. Oh my god. Thank you for
having me and for being you. Go on, how are
(05:52):
you doing today? I'm good. I'm nodding my head along
to everything you're saying and feeling you really, yes, you know,
I know that you've been through it many a time.
So one of the first encounters I had with Rhonda.
We've been friends for a very long time, but I
published an essay that she wrote about white women belly dancing,
(06:13):
and that was maybe a decade ago. That was literally
a decade ago. I still get mail. It was one
of the most incendiary, apparently pieces I have ever published.
And at the time, I just thought, oh, this is
a nice little thought about belly dancing, and I really
appreciate this essay. It never occurred to me that people
were going to respond. Do you remember that essay, Runda?
(06:35):
Of course I remember. I remember writing it for you,
like you were working at Salon and you said, oh,
you know, I'm I'm doing these essays by feminists. Do
you have anything to say? And I had just kind
of been annoyed by a belly dancer interrupting a dinner
and you know, doing what I call maybe like a
(06:58):
like a costume of being Arab, Like she was definitely white,
but she had dyed her hair and had makeup on
her eyes to make her look more Arab, etcetera. And
I was just like so annoyed by it. And I
was still annoyed by it. So I just thought, I'll
just write about how I don't like cultural appropriation and
how yes, I understand that anyone can belly dance, but
(07:19):
should you really pretend to be Arab belly dancing? And
can you do it in a way that's more respectful?
And people were just so angry, so angry, like violently angry.
I mean, I've never gotten more hate mail. And that's
saying something. And what struck me was he that people
(07:40):
didn't really read what you wrote right and be White
people in particular cannot stand being told no, right right,
that something is not theirs. Their response is usually like,
well it's everybody's and it's like, okay, well can it
just be if I'm on the margins and this is
some thing that I care about, can it just be
(08:02):
mine for a moment, Like can you not pretend to
be me and then be part of a culture that
is consistently beginning wars, you know, starting fights and bombing
people like it's not fun? No, it isn't. Did you
anticipate that kind of a reaction? Did you know that
people were going to feel some kind of way? Not
(08:23):
at all. I just thought, I'm talking about belly dancing.
I called it why I can't stand white belly dancers,
and the title just turned into why I hate white
belly dancers for some people. I never used the word
hate ever, but it just kept continuously being used when
people were discussing this. I got media requests from, like,
(08:46):
you know, right wing sources. I got media requests from
people who are pretending to be in the media but
we're actually white belly dancers that I did not know.
That is incredibly extra. Oh yeah, I got sand mail
that was kind of like fake fan mail where they
start by saying, like, I really adore you when you're writing,
(09:07):
but why would you say that people can't belly dance?
Haven't you heard of Korean tacos? You know? They were
making these really not logical arguments about how well the
entire world is melded and remixed, like why are you
having a hard time with this particular thing you must
be you know, like what do you why are you
(09:29):
policing people? Yes, it was definitely eye opening, and I
too have gotten those emails that are stealth where they
start out saying something sane and normal and then it
takes a quick left turn into just psychosis. And I
always think hatred oh, man, I need to stop reading
my own email because nothing good is going to come
(09:51):
of this. Do you ever pause before you put that
kind of opinion, that kind of thought into the world,
opinions that are frankly normal and interesting and engaging, but
that people misinterpret willfully and then sort of get really
incensed about. I think after that particular thing happened, I
(10:13):
think you said, or the Salon editor in chief said,
why don't you write a follow up addressing what people
are saying? And a decade ago, you know, I was
in my thirties, like my bless my little heart. I
was like, yeah, let me double down, and so I did.
I wrote. The next essay I wrote was why I
still can't stand white belly Dancers? And I kind of
(10:35):
went through one by one with people's arguments and like
toward them, you know, two pieces, they're very easy to tear.
I have to say yes and links, and so I
just thought, yeah, I'll do that, and you know, it
got worse obviously. So I think that entire experience helped
me see that, Yes, there are times when you know,
(10:58):
whatever I have to say is going to be met
with anger or misunderstanding. You know. The thing about people
being committed to misunderstanding you is real, and so I've
learned several things. One is it's okay to take a
break and step back. Um, not from having opinions, thank god,
(11:18):
but from publishing them. Maybe if whoever's out there is
just going to be angry and to preserve myself and
to just care for myself. But I'm also angry that
when you do do that, there's this sense of victory
on the other side, like, oh, look, we got her
to be quiet. That's upsetting, But at the same time,
(11:40):
it's it's not true. It's just self preservation to step back. Yeah,
when did you first know you were creative? And what
did that look like? Um. I think one of my
memories that I'm very fond of that's a very queer memory,
(12:02):
is because I grew up in a country that was
very conservative in terms of women's bodies. I grew up
in Kuwait, and you know, all women's bodies were censored
on the cover of things or whatever. They would put
like black mark out on it. And I remember just
being five or six and I had this magazine and
(12:22):
I had women in it, and um, it was like
a fashion mag that my mom brought home and I
started cutting the clothes off because I thought if I
with a pair of scissors cut the clothes off, I
would see what was underneath. I would see what people
were wearing under their clothes. And my mom was like, no,
that's not how it works. This is a photograph. And
(12:45):
I just remember being really upset that I couldn't, you know,
like see I wanted to see what I wasn't supposed
to see. And I think that is probably such a
huge sort of like seed for why I'm creative. You
know that Curio City. Do you still find that you
want to see what you're not supposed to see all
(13:06):
the time? And where does your curiosity take you? It
takes me so many places. It takes me two, I guess,
voyeuristic moments in Dungeons. It takes me to being you know,
in an art space and being curious about the mechanics
(13:27):
of how something was created, you know, just watching a
film and instead of just enjoying it, wanting to see, like,
you know, is there was there really a boom in
that shot? Like the little imperfections that um, we're not
supposed to see. I think we can learn so much
from absolutely and when did you start to write and
(13:48):
what was your early writing? Like I was lucky enough
to have creative writing classes when I was in first, second, fifth,
seventh grade, and I think we had like once a
week and we had a notebook. And so that's when
I started writing. Like all of us right like very
early on, and then we just keep going. Those of
us who are still writers. I know that you eventually
(14:12):
would go on to get an m f A in
a very cold place. That's actually when I first came
upon your writing. You were writing a blog. Rock Slinger
was the blog, yes, And I have no idea how
I came across it, but I just remember thinking, oh,
my goodness, this person is someone I would want to
read endlessly. And you were also a single mother at
(14:35):
the time, and so how do you find and especially
back then, how did you find the energy to stay
committed to your art and also honor your commitment to
your child. So that m f A program was the
second m f A program I started. The first one
was set up in such a way that I didn't
(14:57):
feel like I could honor both my child and my work.
First of all, just like finding a place that would
financially support me so that I could be there for
him and for myself and for my art and didn't
have to work a nine to five. That was the
number one thing. Finding that Michigan program was really important.
And then you know, he would go to school. He
(15:18):
went to school from eight to three, and I didn't
really have classes every single day. So the days that
he was in school, when I didn't have classes, I
would write. It was always kind of like that with him,
Like he would go to school and I would write,
and then I would find something some way to earn
a living around that while he was home or while
he was sleeping. That was just a big part of it.
(15:40):
Sorting out the time, commitments and the finances, which I
think is characteristic of the writing life for most people,
like trying to balance life whatever that may be, however
it might look, with money, and then finding space for creativity.
One of the things that strikes me about you is
(16:02):
you're always doing something creative. It's always happening, whether it's filmmaking.
Every time I talk to you, you're like, oh, I'm
off to make a movie or something. I'm painting something, yes,
or I'm drawing something. And so now that you you
know your child is an adult now, thank god you
(16:25):
are a successful writer. How do you still find that
creative spark? It is a little bit harder now that
I have more time, right, It's it's really interesting, like
now that I have a little bit more time and
definitely space because my you know, some like most young
people in America, like lived at home for a long time.
(16:47):
Now that I don't feel like I have to sneak
my writing and sometimes I don't get any writing done.
It definitely worried me when he first moved out because
I was just basically like partying and going to look
at our and going on dates and just kind of
enjoying my my freedom since I did have him as
a teenager. But then I realized that that was all
(17:09):
just going to be part of what I was going
to write, like that I needed to live to have
more experiences to write about. And so I was like, oh,
this is all just part of the writing process. But
I do every single day, I think, do something creative,
and I will draw, or i will write something funny,
or i'll videotape something, or i'll edit something that I love,
(17:31):
you know, like I'll just try to make something. And
it just really helps me feel connected to myself and
to that younger self that was cutting out people's clothing,
you know, like I always have like a little college
thing by me, and like a little I have an
exact and if by me to college with. So just
(17:52):
doing low stakes things has been really important for me.
Things that I know I will not publish, things I
know I don't have to be good to be in
a gallery or a museum, just things for me to enjoy,
to you know, have fun with and not necessarily show. Yeah,
there's something incredibly freeing about low stakes creativity, and I
(18:13):
find myself wanting that more and more, like almost craving it,
because if I'm doing something that no one will ever
see and that will never be part of my work,
I can enjoy it in a way that I can't
necessarily enjoy something that's much higher stakes, where I have to,
(18:33):
you know, worry about what people are going to think.
So for me, one of those things is photography. And
I'm very very bad at it, very very bad. But
that's okay because I love holding the camera and being like,
look at me. You're also an incredible baker and an
incredible cook. And I tend to think of those things
as creative. Thank you, Thank you. You're one of my
(18:56):
favorite taste testers. I know you've been branching into filmmaking lately.
What are some of the pleasures of filmmaking and why
do you pursue it? Filmmaking for me is a chance
to finally like be on the other side of creating
something with moving images that honors my own experiences. Like,
(19:24):
like most of us, I grew up watching so much
television so much, and you know, I'm I'm not young,
so a lot of the TV that I watched was bad,
like really bad. Like I don't know if people remember,
but like we only have two channels when I was
growing up, And every time I think about that now
when I'm flipping through the hundreds of channels and then
(19:46):
all of the streamers, I remember like three channels and
one of them didn't even really come in. Yeah. People
just don't know, like what we like our struggle No us,
Jens know us, know us, know us. Even though I'm
not quite gen X, I'm write on the No, I'm not.
I'm I'm like one of those middle I'm late seventies.
(20:07):
So it's weird. Yeah. Yeah, so it's hard. Uh yeah,
so I like, you know, when I was younger, my
dad had a video camera, which was such a big deal.
Like none of my friends had video cameras at their house,
(20:28):
and video camera was just everything. Like we would make
fake ads basically tiktoking. Before TikTok, we were prehistoric t
you know, that's where we were, Uh yeah, And it
was just so much fun. It's fun to capture an image,
a moving image, and share it again and then manipulate it,
(20:50):
edit around it. It reminds me a lot of writing
fiction when we when we write fiction, we're providing everything.
We're doing the music, we're doing the shadowing, we're doing
the character development, the images, the setting, like all these
beautiful things that in film require so many different layers.
So it's just fun to take those layers apart and
(21:14):
work on them one by one, especially since it's just
not easy to find media about queer Palestinians, queer Egyptians
speaking in English and just being kinky or whatever it
is that we're doing. Right, I think that we've come forward,
We've we've moved ahead a little bit in terms of
(21:37):
representation of Muslims on film and television, But to be honest,
those people who tend to get those opportunities are men.
You know. I love Hassan Minaj, I love Ramy Yusef,
I love all these dudes that are getting these incredible opportunities.
But it's been much harder for people who aren't men
and people who are from people who are women to
(21:59):
get those kinds of bigger opportunities to share our stories.
And so for a long time I thought, well, I
have to get some sort of big deal, or I
have to do it the proper way, and my manager
would submit me to things and writer's rooms, etcetera for
other people's projects. And then at some point I realized
(22:20):
that I was surrounded by actors and filmmakers and editors
and gaffers, and they were all queer and amazing, and
most of them needed jobs. And so I was like,
why don't we just work together and make stuff, make
our own stuff, and try to make it with you know,
at a level or at equality that you know we're
proud of, which is difficult because things cost money, but
(22:44):
it is you know, that's the challenge I find with
filmmaking in l A, especially if you have friends in
l A, you you know people who can do pretty
much anything that needs to be done on a film set. Yes,
but cameras do cost money in addition to time. Everything
costs money, especially when you're making like independent work, that
(23:06):
money can be very hard to come by. It is.
I mean, you're right, the men do get the opportunities
much more bountifully than women do, which is not to
say that women don't. But and also white people. I mean,
you know, I'm talking about my brothers. Yeah, And so
it seems like community is a real engine for your
creativity as well. What does it mean for you to
(23:29):
be part of a creative community and how does it
help you to make I've I've been really into community
building for so long. As an undergrad, I didn't really
get to do that much because I had a child,
And so once I graduated, my my son got a
little bit older, I was able to really build the
(23:51):
kinds of communities that I wanted to be a part of.
So in Austin I had a very beautiful, rich community
of musicians, artists, lots of Arab Americans who wanted to
support each other. And then in Michigan, you know, building
a community with people out in Detroit and Dearborn and
(24:13):
working with West Asian and North African writers by running
a literary nonprofit UM, which is the most thankless work
I've ever done, but also the most satisfying. Like the
parties we would have, Oh my god, so amazing, so
much dancing, so much belly dancing by people who are
(24:34):
you know, genetically connected to belly dancing. Um. Yeah. So
community to me means like this kind of consistent threading
and kind of knitting with each other so or so
we are you know, I'll do a threat, another person
will do a threat, et cetera, until we can create
this like bigger canvas together. I mean, and you know
(24:56):
this like as someone who's like supported communities and U organizations,
like it doesn't get done by itself. Someone has to
always be pushing with someone else, Like it's just a
a bigger process that involves work for everyone but also
celebration for everyone. But yeah, and and honestly, as a
(25:18):
kinky person, to realizing that so much of what I
used to know, or what most of us know about
kink and b D s M is not true. You know,
most people don't engage in kink or b D s
M alone or casually. We have communities where we do that,
you know, and in the community we have different roles
(25:38):
that we play um and so kind of bringing that
humility and saying, in my community, what are the rules
that I can play, you know, and they're not always
going to be like the one who votes everyone. Yeah,
you're thinking exactly what I was. Well, you know, it's
(26:00):
interesting that you bring up kink because one of the
first things I found when I entered the kink community
was that so much of the energy of the kink
community happens in public spaces and happens with other people,
and not just in the act of performing or engaging
in kink, but because not everyone does it, you find
(26:23):
your people. And in addition to of course the parties
and all of that. And I don't know if they
still do this, but back in the day, they used
to do these things called munches, where you would just
go to a restaurant in the light of day or
at night, doesn't matter, and and engage with people in
your community, even if it wasn't about the thing that
holds you together. And as a person who is shy
(26:49):
and scarrett, well not anymore, but especially in my twenties,
scared of everything, to find people who were just going
to accept you no matter what, and who were willing
to socialize and look past your awkwardness and know that
you had something to offer. Was so helpful. It was
salvation in so many different ways. Absolutely, And now I
(27:15):
know you put a lot of energy into the world creatively.
Do you have a thick skin when it comes to
the ways that people engage with that work? Yes, and no,
I think that I have developed a thicker skin because
you know, like the example that we were talking about
with the belly dancing essay, right, like, at that point,
(27:38):
I'd never written a nonfiction piece that got hate mail.
I'd literally only written nonfiction pieces that people loved about,
you know, being a single mom or experiencing like awful
racism or whatever it is. Right, it was the first
time when I was like, oh, I might have stuff
to say that people don't want to hear, and so
(28:00):
I would say my skin at that point for that
particular thing was thin. But I really think it's important
to allow yourself some grace. You know, there are times
your skin will be thinner and there are times that
will thicken up your skin. And really there's no way
to predict what people are going to think or what
(28:22):
they're gonna say about your work. So for me, I'm
into having like a medium skin a little bit of both,
you know, like just I'm just so you were all
just human, right, We can't just be like, well, I
don't give a funk what people think. Yeah, sometimes I don't,
but I do understand why someone would just like leave
(28:44):
society and just right in a cottage for forty years
and then you know, upon their death we discover like
four amazing novels by them, Like, okay, cool, that's amazing,
but that's just not the life I want. You know,
this community help you in those times when where people
respond in a range of unpleasant ways to your work enormously.
(29:09):
It's hard. It's hard to stick up for people when
they're in an unpopular position. The people who do, I
find are very strong and incredible. You know. That's love,
like just showing up for someone and when when they
when they're not having a great time. You know, it's
easy to show up to a wedding, not always, but
it's easier to show up to something fun and big
(29:32):
and just enjoy. But it's not as easy to show
up when someone's having a really hard time. I find
that that is where a lot of those connections become
really strong um and the trust builds. Right. So I
think it's really really important to turn to community and
to allow them. It's not just that you need them,
(29:53):
it's that they also need you, like they need to
care for you. People need to care for each other.
It's something that's just part of who we are. And
allowing others to care for you is such a huge
it's a skill, you know, it is still you know.
That's it's interesting that you say that, because I think,
especially for some of us, it's it's actually easier to
(30:15):
show up than to allow people to show up for you,
which is certainly I'm something I'm still learning. And do
you allow people to show up for you? I do?
I do, and I've gotten a lot better at it
in the past. If they didn't show up in a
specific kind of way, I would be very annoyed. Ah,
(30:37):
But people are just imperfect. They're gonna say stupid ship,
They're gonna you know, mess up and and make mistakes.
And it really, to me is all about the intention.
What is the intention when someone shows up? Are they
intending to really be there for me? And how do
they show that, you know, is it consistent? So and
(30:58):
it can get really tricky because once you reach a
certain point, you know, as you know, like sometimes you worry,
Like for me, sometimes I'm like, do you really care
about me? Or do you need a letter of recommendation?
You know, like um, and that's a question. But but
that's not my business, right, that's actually not my business.
Like my business is to accept the love and have
(31:22):
good compassionate boundaries. So if someone's there for me and
everything is great, and then later they asked for a
litter of ref and I can't do it, I can
just have a boundary. Then you know, it's just like
revolutionary think of like oh wait, I can say no
and I can do it compassionately. And it's their business
whether they accept that no or not. Not mine. Absolutely, Yeah.
(31:46):
I just have one last question. What do you want
for yourself at this stage of your life? In this stage,
I mean either professionally or personally, Like, what are your
ambitions for yourself? Such a good question, Thank you. I
would really love to continue writing books and publishing them,
(32:08):
but mostly at this point I would really love to
get a chance to make a big film, just make
the kind of film that I dream of making, which
is sort of expansive and beautiful. I want to be
able to tell more stories in ways that I haven't before,
(32:31):
whether it be like on stage or in a book
or in film. I want to be able to have
the kind of or to continue to have the kind
of resilience to make those things happen, but also to
attract support for those things. So those are that's basically it.
You're the best friend. Thank you so so much for
(32:54):
joining me on the rock Same Gay Agenda. It's going
to be funny, the Gay Agenda. Thank you for having me.
You can keep up with me and the podcast on
social media on Twitter at r g a Y and
Instagram at Roxanne Gay seventy four. Our email is Roxanne
(33:15):
Gay Agenda at gmail dot com and we would love
to hear from you from Luminary. The Roxanne Gay Agenda
is produced by Curtis Fox. Our intern is Ysena Morena.
Production support is provided by Caitlin Adams and Meg Pillow.
I'm Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad Rummondist. Thank you so
very much for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.