January 25, 2022 • 31 mins
Novelist Terry McMillan set the table for so many Black creative women working today. She tells Roxane about how she became a writer without knowing she was one, and how she continues to write narratives that so many Black women identify with.
Mentions:
● Roxane’s Story “North Country” is in her book Difficult Women: https://roxanegay.com/books/difficult-women/
● Terry McMillan’s Website: https://www.terrymcmillan.com/
● New York Times article, The Joys (and Challenges) of Sex after 70: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/12/magazine/sex-old-age.html
Credits: Curtis Fox is the producer. Yessenia Moreno is the intern. Production help from Kaitlyn Adams. Theme music by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I must confess I do not fully understand TikTok. Mostly,
how do those young people make those videos? Just how
the one where they're always changing their clothes? I just
I can't even, but I still get sucked into all
of the videos. The guy who wears a mask while
he's cooking outside on an open fire, the guy who
shoes horses, dermatologists extracting horrifying things from people's bodies. Oh
(00:26):
my god, all those dances. And then there is this
one I found featuring the one and only Denzel Washington.
Let me tell you something. You a friend in me.
Actually it's not Denzel Washington. It's the best Denzel Washington
imitation you will ever hear. I said it. You got
a friend in me? Go the road looks rough ahead,
(00:47):
and your miles and miles from your nice wound bed.
In fact, that was done by a talented young man
by the name of Christian King on TikTok. You can
find him at I Am Underscore c K I n G. Yeah, yeah,
you got a friend in me. I mean you got troubles.
I got him too, I got It's nothing I wouldn't
do for you. I just always laughed because you know,
(01:09):
Denzel has this thing he does when he's giving a monologue,
and he absolutely commands the attention of anyone who's listening.
And so for that young man to capture the essence
of Denzel is just hilarious. And it's things like that
that remind me that there is still something redeemable about
the Internet. From Luminary, Welcome to the Roxanne Gay Agenda,
(01:35):
the bad Feminist Podcast of Your Dreams. I Am Roxanne Gay. Hey,
you're all going to get over this, are we? Because
are you cry a lot? Last night? Insecure has come
to an end. The HBO series starring Sa Ray wrapped
after five really intelligent and excellent seasons. I love the
(01:58):
show from the very first episode because it was just
so beautifully shot and to focus on these young black
professionals who were just trying to find their way in
the world. It's not a story that we see often enough,
and over five years, or really five seasons, we saw
the ups and downs of a really wonderful group of friends,
(02:20):
and we got to know these characters and their love
lives and the disasters that they tended to make of them,
their professional ups and downs, and it all came to
a very satisfying end, which is not something that's really
easy to do. How do you end a television show?
(02:41):
How do you say goodbye to a fan base? And
so it has happened. And what this show has reminded
us is that there are so many amazing stories to
tell about black WOMENSA Ray and her co creators have
a lot to be proud of. But one of the
things that has always ruck me about the show is
(03:02):
that creators like her are standing on the shoulders of giants.
There are black creators who paved the way and made
those stories possible. And one of those giants is novelist
Terry McMillan. I first encountered her work when I read
the novel Waiting to Exhale after the movie. I saw
the movie first like many people, and then I was like,
(03:24):
if this is a book, I have to read it.
And then I read the book and I was like,
oh my god, this book is amazing. And then I
went on to read so much more of her work.
I enjoyed disappearing acts, how Stella got her groove back.
I almost forgot about you. We have done an event
together in person a few years ago at Chevalier Books
(03:44):
which was a lot of fun. And now she is
joining me today. Terry McMillan, Welcome to the Roxanne Gay Agenda.
Thank you, Roxane. I remember that day too. I do too,
I do too. You were a beautiful, beautiful skirt and
it was a really devent It was great. Yeah, And
my dentist is right down the street. Two Birds, one Stone.
(04:07):
So we're both in sunny Los Angeles, or at least
it's somewhat sunny today. You're in Pasadena and I'm in
sort of the West Side, and so we're about on
a good day, half an hour from each other. And
yet because of COVID, we can't do this in person.
How has the pandemic been for you? Well, one thing
I can say is that what you and I do,
(04:29):
we do it alone. I'm used to being by myself
because I can't write with a lot of things going
on around me, and especially human beings, they get on
my nerves. Um, I take walks. I live close to
the Rose Bowl and hilly areas. But I'm just used
to being alone. But I don't like knowing that I
have to be alone, that I need to be alone.
(04:51):
And right now, someone in my family has COVID. I
know a lot of people that have had COVID. I'm
just sick of it now. I know that you moved
l A when you were seventeen years old. How has
l A shaped who you are as a person and
a writer. I don't count l A. You don't know, really,
(05:12):
I don't. I mean, first of all, I don't. I
don't mean it quite that way. I live in Los Angele.
I mean I live in Pasadenia, in old town. I
like it here. It sort of feels like a village.
I don't have to deal with traffic, so I don't.
I don't commute out all of that. When the pandemic
first struck, I loved taking the freeway. I look for
reasons to take it away because you can go anywhere
(05:35):
and minutes instead of two hours. It was glorious. Oh
my goodness, I like, I just used to change lanes
just for the hell of it. You know. Um, you know,
I'm sitting here now with four hunter in some odd
pages that I'm revising. And when will this novel be
in the world? You know, honey, if you want to
finish it, and now I can send you the you
(05:58):
know what, send it along. Let me see what I
can do. Can I say one thing to you that
I told you this story a long time ago when
I was in Paris and I was writing a different
novel and I was reading Best American Short Stories and
you had a story in it right now, old, I
can't remember the name of it, but all I know
is is that I jumped up out of the bed
and I threw the fffing book across the room. I
(06:23):
was like, how the F does she do this? I
was I'm literally I got chill bumps now just remembering.
And I didn't know you. I didn't know who you were,
and I was like, WHOA. And that was how I
basically discovered you. I remember that that was the short
story was called North Country. But you're good. There's nobody
like you, nobody like you. Thanks glad to me, though,
(06:48):
because I've been a fan of it. Does it does?
I mean, I I appreciate that, But the bottom line
is is that nobody has your voice and nobody does
what you do, and it's fiction and not fiction. I mean,
you're just smart. Thank you. You know. I know you
went to school up there in Michigan, and I was
trying to figure out what the hell was she doing
(07:09):
up there to graduate school. I was running away from
a breakup. Honestly, I moved up there. I went side unseen.
I had been dumped by email by someone I cared
very deeply about, and I just thought, I want to
get as far away from here as possible. Well you did.
I went to the end of the world. But it
completely changed the trajectory of my life. That was the
(07:32):
best breakup that ever happened to me. Now that's a
good story. It is it is. It is the best
breakup that ever happened to me. I mean I think
I might, I'd say I might change. You look happy,
though I'm glad. I am very happy. I know you are.
And I love being in l A in the winter
because I'm not ready. I don't like snow. I'm done.
(07:54):
That was the one bad. Not Michigan. But that was
the part about Michigan. It's no, you're in in Michigan
Upper Peninsula. So I'm done with winter. I've done my time.
You know, I grew up in Michigan. I did not
know that. Where in Michigan did you grow up? Port Uron, Oh,
right on the Canadian border. My senior prom was in Canada, Sagna, Ontario.
(08:16):
So what was it like growing up in Port Huron, Michigan? Boring?
It was boring. Are there black people there? Not? Really?
Not a lot, not a lot there were. Most of
us were related. Yeah, I would guess. I would guess that,
which is what happens. But it was beautiful because I
grew up on the water. Yes, we didn't know how
(08:36):
good we had it for the most part until years later.
My senior prom was in Canada and I gained an hour.
So when did you first know that you wanted to
be a writer. I didn't. I didn't know I wanted
to be around. I didn't never wanted to be a writer.
I just I was in college and at L A
(09:00):
c C. I moved out here. I left Michigan as
soon as I got out of high school. I had
a roommate and I didn't know it was a poem.
I don't know what I was doing, and I wrote
it down and this guy his name is, oh God,
what's his name? He became a really good television producer,
Eric somebody, And this little thing I had written was
on the table. I had to go to the bathroom,
(09:22):
came back. He was sitting there reading. He said, you
wrote this, and I said, what are you doing reading
my paper? And he said, wow, this is a great poem.
And I wasn't even thinking that it was a poem.
It was just something that I had written. So he
was doing, um he was about to do this television series,
and he said, can I publish this? And to be
(09:44):
honest with you, I'll just tell the truth since we're
on a podcast. I was pregnant by somebody that I
wasn't supposed to be pregnant by, and I was on
my way to go do some other things to stop it.
And here he wants to talk about putting my poem somewhere.
And I was like, you know what, I have an appointment.
Because I think he was there to see my roommate.
(10:05):
I said, I gotta be somewhere, you know. And long
and story short, that's sort of how it started. But
I also had a lot of other poems that I
never told anybody or showed anybody. That one just happened
to be on the table. But you know, all I
knew was that it made me feel I felt free
(10:25):
when I wrote. After I wrote it was it was
like taking a really good pain killer. That's the best
feeling in the world, isn't it. Listen, I enjoy a
pain killer. But the thing is is that you don't know,
Oh you got a little doggy. I do, and there's
(10:45):
a Starbucks delivery and my wife will get it. I know.
That's why he's losing his mind. Whenever someone like, if
you even think about our house, Max is gonna bark.
That's just what he does. Does he drink coffee? No,
we do. So that's how it started. So that's how
it started. And then where do you go from there?
With like feeling free? What happened was I ended up
(11:08):
getting accepted to Berkeley, and then when I got there,
I kept on doing it and so I had to
declare a major. But I was writing for two newspapers
by accident, the Daily California, which was for the whole university,
and then we had one of black students called Black Thoughts,
so I was writing for both of them. Then come
I jing your year. Turns out I had opinions about
(11:30):
a lot of stuff, things that really piste me off
or hurt me, or that I didn't understand. I didn't
try to write poetry is something that just happened and
saying with essays and stuff. I mean, I just it's
I couldn't stop myself. Plus it wasn't like I would
just stand around and talk. Well yeah I did that too,
but um but you know, but it was it was
(11:52):
freeing that there was a place for stuff that piste
you off, You didn't understand it hurt you, that bothered you,
that confused you, and it was the one thing you
could do that you weren't judged. Yeah. Absolutely, I know
that feeling of freedom when I first started to write,
and right more seriously, I had written since I was four,
(12:14):
but in high school and college, well I mean like
I read a four year old little stories. I mean
I wrote four year old stories. They weren't like Moore
in Peace. But yeah, I started writing at four, and
that sense of freedom and that sense of being able
to share on the page even if no one ever
read it, To be able to just share my thoughts
(12:36):
on whatever was so freeing and was so exhilarating. And
even when I'm when I'm my happiest, I'm doing that
kind of writing even now, where I just want to
I say what I want to say and I don't
care what anyone out there is going to think. I
pretend no one's going to read it, and it's just
me and the blank page, and I crave that, and
(12:59):
I and myself, you know, spending so much time doing
everything but writing, and it's profoundly unpleasant. Honey, I don't
know where i'd be. I don't know what else I
could do that would be as gratifying as writing, because
(13:20):
no one tells you what to do, what to say,
how to say it. This is the stuff that you
don't even know you feel until you write it down. Sometimes, right,
something's surprise me because I don't know how much I
care about certain things. I'll put it this way. The
thing that I love is what I don't understand. It
(13:42):
kind of pisces me off. But then I really realized
that we don't have the answers. Do you find yourself
writing toward answers? Uh? No, not answers understanding. I mean,
one of my characters has a drug problem. I have
another one that was in prison, incarcerated for twenty on
(14:04):
our years, and now he's out. I have no idea
what that feels like. And also, you know, I have
a tendency to judge people, um including myself. I am
just grateful for the opportunity to be able to be
(14:28):
honest about the life that I live, and about what
I feel and what I think, and how I've learned
that writing is really a good way of stepping outside
of your own comfort zone and being giving yourself permission
to be uncomfortable, especially when it doesn't because everything doesn't
revolve around me. I appreciate the fact that I even
(14:54):
have the capacity to give a ship. Am I allowed
to swear? Yes? Absolutely? Let it out? Oh, I just
gave one little one, um. But I mean, we have
an opportunity while we are alive to say what we mean,
what we see, what we feel, and if it's not
(15:16):
what we feel, what we assume other people feel, and
I can jump out of my own skin and out
of my own heart because to me, as a writer
and writing fiction, that's what you have to do. Not
to say that you can't plan it, No you can't.
I mean some you can try, but I have found
that you really can't. Know. It's always for me when
(15:36):
I try to overplan, it's forced, and it's not that
emotional connection that that I crave and that readers seem
to connect to in my work, just disappears. One of
the things that I always wonder about for someone you've
written I think ten novels over the past thirty seven years.
How do you sustain your love of writing and the
(15:59):
ups and down owns of dealing with publishing and touring
and just the publishing world. Like, what keeps you so
deeply invested in your craft? Well, to be very honest
with you, I almost feel like I don't have a choice.
It's not an intellectual decision. You know that I write
(16:20):
about what disturbs me and what I wish I could change,
including myself, even though I'm perfect. No, I had to
throw that, Yes, of course you did. I'll put this
way just here, one thing here. This has nothing to
do with my novel. Okay. I don't know where I was,
(16:41):
but it says I thought I was gonna live forever.
But I didn't. In fact, when some of my friends
started dropping off and leaving this world in their forties
and fifties, and the ones who felt lucky in their
sixties and seventies, I felt sorry for most of them
because they didn't seem to take this journey called life seriously.
They were dull, as if they chose their own line
(17:03):
of demarcation. I'll stop there. But the story, I don't
even know where it is. It's more to it. I
just thought I read. I don't know where it came from.
I don't know. But I'm saying to myself, what if
you could write about something after I mean not to
say that other writers haven't done it, but I haven't
done it. And I'm seventy, which I can't believe. And
(17:24):
I'm thinking, where where do you go from here? When
do you know enough is enough? Or there's still more?
And that's what made right. I have a lot more.
But the thing that's not the book I'm writing. Uh,
and I hope it's not my last book, since I'm
talking about and I'm not morbid. I don't. I'm not
(17:44):
thinking about dying at all that stuff, not even close.
I'm in third gear. I love that one of the
big themes, the primary themes in your work is friendship
and sisterhood between black women, and I know that has
brought millions of readers to your work. And you said,
(18:05):
sometimes you feel closely to your friends than you do
your own family, And so why is friendship so central
in your novels? Because I think that the love is unconditional,
and families you know you you kind of have them.
You know you can't get rid of your brother or
your sister. To me, sometimes friends feel the way family
(18:31):
members I would think should feel. Yes, I still have
a lot of good friends. I have friends from college still.
But we respect each other. We know we don't share
the same attitudes about some things, which is what makes
us good friends because we respect our differences. Sometimes we
get a divorce, but a lot of lives we know
(18:53):
we're always coming back. I mean, I've got a friend
hoestp too for a year, and then I called her
up and I said, hey, hell, you know it's a joke. Okay,
But but I just I believe in friendship, and friendship
to me, sometimes can be as strong as love. Sometimes
(19:16):
you trust your friends. And I mean I have male
friends too. I don't write about them as much. I
just I don't know. I feel I'm glad I'm a
woman and not a man. That's all I can say that.
Praise be for that. Every single day, not a day
goes by that I'm not grateful to be a woman.
I have to say, you know, I'll put this way.
(19:40):
What I also like is how we can change, not
just physically. But I don't feel the same way now
as I did two years ago, or five years ago
or ten years ago. And not to say that men don't,
but you know, they don't seem to share it the
same way. I'm like, still friends with my ex husband.
(20:00):
As much as i'd still like him, I can't quite
tell how he's evolved. Women, you can we share it.
You can say I feel like shit, I missed my mama.
You know, I wish my sister or my brother or
blah blah blah blah blah would understand what I'm doing,
(20:23):
why I'm doing it. I don't like having to explain.
I think about change a lot because parts Sometimes I
think people can't change and they're not going to change,
and other times I think no, people are capable of change,
and I think it's more individual than that. I don't
think you can make those sweeping statements, But what is
the biggest evolution that you've made in your life? I
(20:46):
gave up drinking. Oh, it's been about forty years or more.
First of all, I never drank a lot, but it
didn't take much to get me drunk, and I really
liized that this wasn't really doing it for me, and
so I just stopped drinking. But I think more than
(21:06):
anything too. I mean, I used to smoke cigarettes, but
I never could smoke a whole cigarette. And what I'm
not I know you're not talking just about habits and
stuff like that, but those things evolved and they turn
into other things they do. I never liked marijuana, but
I decided to be more honest with myself and basically
to stop bullshitting myself and to try to stop judging
(21:27):
other people, even though that has been very difficult. When
you figure out how to do that, please just let
me know. Um, I don't know. I realized that I
need to give myself more credit, not pat myself on
the back. I struggled with that, and I also struggled
(21:48):
with learning to not judge myself. I judge myself constantly. Um.
It's exhausting in fact, but you know, work in progress.
Definitely work in progress. You don't now in your latest book, Uh,
It's all downhill from here, which came out uh in
the very sort of beginning of COVID in March. I
(22:10):
have my book tour was canceled sixteen cities. Oh, come
on that had to stay because they hadn't even figured
out online events at that point. No, but my middle
name became MPR. I mean it was good, but the
bottom line is that when I found out it was canceled,
I was like, what do you mean My book tour
was canceled? People don't cancel book That was one of
(22:32):
the things that made me realize this was a little
deeper than we thought. That was. That's what did it
for me too, because I had, you know, been sort
of on this perpetual tour and I was going from
event to event, and then I was supposed to go
to Sydney, Australia, and the event was canceled because they
(22:53):
were like, we don't know if you'll be able to
get back into the US. And I was like, what
are you even talking about? And that's when I realized, oh,
this is serious. But at the time I told my
wife she was in New York, and I said, come
over for two I mean we were going back and
forth at that time and we were not yet married,
and I said, just come on, bring two weeks of clothing.
(23:15):
We should be able to like we really thought we would,
like everyone would stay in the little houses for two
weeks and the little virus would go away. Now two
years later, entering the third year, I think we all realized,
now it's a little more serious than that. Well, I
tell you what was really what I really knew it
was serious. When the I R S gave us more
time to be girl, I said September, and I was like,
(23:42):
there is a god. There is There isn't there is?
And I enjoyed that little extension, and I took advantage
of it. I sure sure did I know that in
the book It's all It's not all downhill from here?
You write about sex as we get older? By any chance,
(24:02):
did you read that recent article in the New York
Times about sex after seventy You know what, It's on
my floor. It's on my floor right under Betty what's
her name, Betty White. Yeah, it's it's on his pile.
I'll get to it good. One of the things I
was reading thinking about as I read it. It was
a very interesting article that showed a lot of different
(24:22):
sort of experiences that couples over seventy or having. And
I realized, we don't actually see a lot of stories
about what happens after I would say, even fifty which
is weird. People just seemed, especially for women, assume that
it's not there. So what did you sort of learn
(24:43):
about writing about intimacy for women of a certain age
when you were writing that novel? That a lot of
things that people think is true are not true. They
act like they act like you just dry up, um,
and that you have no desire. That as total bullshit.
I think this is this is based on some stuff
(25:04):
from the prehistoric days or something. I don't know, our
people stuff. Women women thought it wasn't appropriate to admit
that they still had orgasms and desire and all that,
and I mean like it was an embarrassment or something.
And I'm like, w tf, um, no, no, no, and
so my characters. And that's one of the that's why
(25:25):
it's called it's not all downhill from here. I mean,
you're literate, but I didn't mean just that obviously, that
you can be happy, you can find love at fifty
and sixty and seventy. Our body is still function and
we still have feelings. I just never buy into a
lot of stereotypes. You know, who is it They can
tell me about my body better than I can. I mean,
(25:48):
it's total bullshit that makes a lot of sense. I
I love that you explored that territory in the novel.
So you said you've been revising four pages a new novel. Yes,
do you talk about work in progress? Oh? I don't mind.
Oh good, We would love to hear. What is your
new novel about? Well, ironically, it's called Safety, and it
(26:11):
was called that before the pandemic. Uh, it was called
Finding Safety. And then you know, I mean, I like
Jaron's but um then my editor said, Terry, how about
just safety? And I said whatever. But it's a it's
about a group of people. The main character owns a diner,
so it's about all these people, about six or seven
(26:33):
of them that come to a diner. So it's a
multiple viewpoint story. But something kind of tragic happens to
someone who used to own the diner. But the characters
I love, I mean I love them. The story basically
is what happens to these people's lives when there's an
(26:54):
accident and the diner has to shut down. So you
weave in and out of each of these characters live
And you know, I've got prostitutes, I've got gamblers, I've
got I've got I mean people that have to learn
how to accept other people because these folks they ain't
big on gay people. But I got quite a few
of memo books just for that reason. Okay, and um
(27:16):
at different ethnicities and all kinds of stuff. But it's
it's kind of a family, and so it's just the
story is just about their journey on how they find
safety and where did the idea come from? And these characters?
How did these characters come to you? That's a good question.
I'm trying to think. I'm old, honey, I can't remember
(27:39):
a lot of stuff. Um right, to be very honest,
right this minute, I don't remember how all the characters
came about. But I knew that it was a diner.
It was the idea. I like the idea that people
and diners usually know each other in the diner, but
not outside of the diner, and people judge each other
by what they think they know about you. That is
(28:00):
true in real life, let's face it. But the diner
is a quaint space. I mean, I've got some guy
out of there's been in wrongfully incarcerated for twenty three
years and him coming out to the real world as
a whole new thing, and I have different ethnicity different.
I about seven main characters. Well, there's one main character
(28:23):
who owns the diner, and I just want to show
I tried to show what happens to them outside of
the diner, and how much they reveal in the diner.
And they lie to themselves and they lie to other people.
But as the reader, you know who's telling the truth
and who's lying and what. And the story is about
(28:46):
the trajectory of how they pretty much all end up
having to tell the truth. It just sounds wonderful and exciting.
I love ensemble narratives, and I also love a good
diner where you meet all the sort of interesting people
at the dinner. You should just do a tour of
diners and do readings of diners all across the country.
(29:07):
That's a good one. That is that's should thank you.
But you should see my menu for the diner that
I would love to know a little something on that menu.
Oh whoa. But the people that work in the diner
and come to the diner, I mean, I've got a
character her call they call them as slipping fall. You
(29:28):
know what that means right now? I don't where your
girl Nebraska? Yeah, I forgot, I'm being facetious okay, but no,
people that do everything so they can always have a
subtle get us up being waiting on a settlement. You
never knew any people like that? Huh No, And now
I know what you mean by slipping fallow. The people
who are like trying to get a lawsuit to get
(29:49):
a little Yeah, yeah, I got a character like that,
but all of them. But but the thing is this is,
you know, I love these people. There's something to get
on my nerves, but I have to write it like
they don't. How about you? When do you write? Listen,
it's a problem struggling. Are you a publisher? Now? I
(30:11):
am both a writer and a publisher. Yeah, yeah I am.
I'm actually slow your role because we miss you. Well
that's the thing. I miss you. I can speak for everybody,
and I love your articles in The New York Times.
But if I have two books coming out, thank you.
(30:31):
That's all I wanted to hear. Well, Terry McMillan, you
are always a delight and you have written so many
foundational novels for black women, and it's been a real
pleasure to have you on the Roxane Gay Agenda. Thank
you so much for taking the time this morning. Thank
you for inviting me. Of course, tell your mom and
daddy I will absolutely and a little dog that was
(30:58):
Terry McMillan, not ballist extraordinaire. You can keep up with
me and the podcast on social media on Twitter at
r g A Y and Instagram at Roxanne Gay seven four.
Our email is Roxanne Gay Agenda at gmail dot com,
and we would love to hear from you from Luminary.
The Roxanne Gay Podcast is produced by Curtis Fox, Our
(31:20):
intern is Yasena Moreno, and production support is provided by
Caitlin Adams. I'm Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist. Thanks
for listening.
I must confess I do not fully understand TikTok. Mostly,
how do those young people make those videos? Just how
the one where they're always changing their clothes? I just
I can't even, but I still get sucked into all
of the videos. The guy who wears a mask while
he's cooking outside on an open fire, the guy who
shoes horses, dermatologists extracting horrifying things from people's bodies. Oh
(00:26):
my god, all those dances. And then there is this
one I found featuring the one and only Denzel Washington.
Let me tell you something. You a friend in me.
Actually it's not Denzel Washington. It's the best Denzel Washington
imitation you will ever hear. I said it. You got
a friend in me? Go the road looks rough ahead,
(00:47):
and your miles and miles from your nice wound bed.
In fact, that was done by a talented young man
by the name of Christian King on TikTok. You can
find him at I Am Underscore c K I n G. Yeah, yeah,
you got a friend in me. I mean you got troubles.
I got him too, I got It's nothing I wouldn't
do for you. I just always laughed because you know,
(01:09):
Denzel has this thing he does when he's giving a monologue,
and he absolutely commands the attention of anyone who's listening.
And so for that young man to capture the essence
of Denzel is just hilarious. And it's things like that
that remind me that there is still something redeemable about
the Internet. From Luminary, Welcome to the Roxanne Gay Agenda,
(01:35):
the bad Feminist Podcast of Your Dreams. I Am Roxanne Gay. Hey,
you're all going to get over this, are we? Because
are you cry a lot? Last night? Insecure has come
to an end. The HBO series starring Sa Ray wrapped
after five really intelligent and excellent seasons. I love the
(01:58):
show from the very first episode because it was just
so beautifully shot and to focus on these young black
professionals who were just trying to find their way in
the world. It's not a story that we see often enough,
and over five years, or really five seasons, we saw
the ups and downs of a really wonderful group of friends,
(02:20):
and we got to know these characters and their love
lives and the disasters that they tended to make of them,
their professional ups and downs, and it all came to
a very satisfying end, which is not something that's really
easy to do. How do you end a television show?
(02:41):
How do you say goodbye to a fan base? And
so it has happened. And what this show has reminded
us is that there are so many amazing stories to
tell about black WOMENSA Ray and her co creators have
a lot to be proud of. But one of the
things that has always ruck me about the show is
(03:02):
that creators like her are standing on the shoulders of giants.
There are black creators who paved the way and made
those stories possible. And one of those giants is novelist
Terry McMillan. I first encountered her work when I read
the novel Waiting to Exhale after the movie. I saw
the movie first like many people, and then I was like,
(03:24):
if this is a book, I have to read it.
And then I read the book and I was like,
oh my god, this book is amazing. And then I
went on to read so much more of her work.
I enjoyed disappearing acts, how Stella got her groove back.
I almost forgot about you. We have done an event
together in person a few years ago at Chevalier Books
(03:44):
which was a lot of fun. And now she is
joining me today. Terry McMillan, Welcome to the Roxanne Gay Agenda.
Thank you, Roxane. I remember that day too. I do too,
I do too. You were a beautiful, beautiful skirt and
it was a really devent It was great. Yeah, And
my dentist is right down the street. Two Birds, one Stone.
(04:07):
So we're both in sunny Los Angeles, or at least
it's somewhat sunny today. You're in Pasadena and I'm in
sort of the West Side, and so we're about on
a good day, half an hour from each other. And
yet because of COVID, we can't do this in person.
How has the pandemic been for you? Well, one thing
I can say is that what you and I do,
(04:29):
we do it alone. I'm used to being by myself
because I can't write with a lot of things going
on around me, and especially human beings, they get on
my nerves. Um, I take walks. I live close to
the Rose Bowl and hilly areas. But I'm just used
to being alone. But I don't like knowing that I
have to be alone, that I need to be alone.
(04:51):
And right now, someone in my family has COVID. I
know a lot of people that have had COVID. I'm
just sick of it now. I know that you moved
l A when you were seventeen years old. How has
l A shaped who you are as a person and
a writer. I don't count l A. You don't know, really,
(05:12):
I don't. I mean, first of all, I don't. I
don't mean it quite that way. I live in Los Angele.
I mean I live in Pasadenia, in old town. I
like it here. It sort of feels like a village.
I don't have to deal with traffic, so I don't.
I don't commute out all of that. When the pandemic
first struck, I loved taking the freeway. I look for
reasons to take it away because you can go anywhere
(05:35):
and minutes instead of two hours. It was glorious. Oh
my goodness, I like, I just used to change lanes
just for the hell of it. You know. Um, you know,
I'm sitting here now with four hunter in some odd
pages that I'm revising. And when will this novel be
in the world? You know, honey, if you want to
finish it, and now I can send you the you
(05:58):
know what, send it along. Let me see what I
can do. Can I say one thing to you that
I told you this story a long time ago when
I was in Paris and I was writing a different
novel and I was reading Best American Short Stories and
you had a story in it right now, old, I
can't remember the name of it, but all I know
is is that I jumped up out of the bed
and I threw the fffing book across the room. I
(06:23):
was like, how the F does she do this? I
was I'm literally I got chill bumps now just remembering.
And I didn't know you. I didn't know who you were,
and I was like, WHOA. And that was how I
basically discovered you. I remember that that was the short
story was called North Country. But you're good. There's nobody
like you, nobody like you. Thanks glad to me, though,
(06:48):
because I've been a fan of it. Does it does?
I mean, I I appreciate that, But the bottom line
is is that nobody has your voice and nobody does
what you do, and it's fiction and not fiction. I mean,
you're just smart. Thank you. You know. I know you
went to school up there in Michigan, and I was
trying to figure out what the hell was she doing
(07:09):
up there to graduate school. I was running away from
a breakup. Honestly, I moved up there. I went side unseen.
I had been dumped by email by someone I cared
very deeply about, and I just thought, I want to
get as far away from here as possible. Well you did.
I went to the end of the world. But it
completely changed the trajectory of my life. That was the
(07:32):
best breakup that ever happened to me. Now that's a
good story. It is it is. It is the best
breakup that ever happened to me. I mean I think
I might, I'd say I might change. You look happy,
though I'm glad. I am very happy. I know you are.
And I love being in l A in the winter
because I'm not ready. I don't like snow. I'm done.
(07:54):
That was the one bad. Not Michigan. But that was
the part about Michigan. It's no, you're in in Michigan
Upper Peninsula. So I'm done with winter. I've done my time.
You know, I grew up in Michigan. I did not
know that. Where in Michigan did you grow up? Port Uron, Oh,
right on the Canadian border. My senior prom was in Canada, Sagna, Ontario.
(08:16):
So what was it like growing up in Port Huron, Michigan? Boring?
It was boring. Are there black people there? Not? Really?
Not a lot, not a lot there were. Most of
us were related. Yeah, I would guess. I would guess that,
which is what happens. But it was beautiful because I
grew up on the water. Yes, we didn't know how
(08:36):
good we had it for the most part until years later.
My senior prom was in Canada and I gained an hour.
So when did you first know that you wanted to
be a writer. I didn't. I didn't know I wanted
to be around. I didn't never wanted to be a writer.
I just I was in college and at L A
(09:00):
c C. I moved out here. I left Michigan as
soon as I got out of high school. I had
a roommate and I didn't know it was a poem.
I don't know what I was doing, and I wrote
it down and this guy his name is, oh God,
what's his name? He became a really good television producer,
Eric somebody, And this little thing I had written was
on the table. I had to go to the bathroom,
(09:22):
came back. He was sitting there reading. He said, you
wrote this, and I said, what are you doing reading
my paper? And he said, wow, this is a great poem.
And I wasn't even thinking that it was a poem.
It was just something that I had written. So he
was doing, um he was about to do this television series,
and he said, can I publish this? And to be
(09:44):
honest with you, I'll just tell the truth since we're
on a podcast. I was pregnant by somebody that I
wasn't supposed to be pregnant by, and I was on
my way to go do some other things to stop it.
And here he wants to talk about putting my poem somewhere.
And I was like, you know what, I have an appointment.
Because I think he was there to see my roommate.
(10:05):
I said, I gotta be somewhere, you know. And long
and story short, that's sort of how it started. But
I also had a lot of other poems that I
never told anybody or showed anybody. That one just happened
to be on the table. But you know, all I
knew was that it made me feel I felt free
(10:25):
when I wrote. After I wrote it was it was
like taking a really good pain killer. That's the best
feeling in the world, isn't it. Listen, I enjoy a
pain killer. But the thing is is that you don't know,
Oh you got a little doggy. I do, and there's
(10:45):
a Starbucks delivery and my wife will get it. I know.
That's why he's losing his mind. Whenever someone like, if
you even think about our house, Max is gonna bark.
That's just what he does. Does he drink coffee? No,
we do. So that's how it started. So that's how
it started. And then where do you go from there?
With like feeling free? What happened was I ended up
(11:08):
getting accepted to Berkeley, and then when I got there,
I kept on doing it and so I had to
declare a major. But I was writing for two newspapers
by accident, the Daily California, which was for the whole university,
and then we had one of black students called Black Thoughts,
so I was writing for both of them. Then come
I jing your year. Turns out I had opinions about
(11:30):
a lot of stuff, things that really piste me off
or hurt me, or that I didn't understand. I didn't
try to write poetry is something that just happened and
saying with essays and stuff. I mean, I just it's
I couldn't stop myself. Plus it wasn't like I would
just stand around and talk. Well yeah I did that too,
but um but you know, but it was it was
(11:52):
freeing that there was a place for stuff that piste
you off, You didn't understand it hurt you, that bothered you,
that confused you, and it was the one thing you
could do that you weren't judged. Yeah. Absolutely, I know
that feeling of freedom when I first started to write,
and right more seriously, I had written since I was four,
(12:14):
but in high school and college, well I mean like
I read a four year old little stories. I mean
I wrote four year old stories. They weren't like Moore
in Peace. But yeah, I started writing at four, and
that sense of freedom and that sense of being able
to share on the page even if no one ever
read it, To be able to just share my thoughts
(12:36):
on whatever was so freeing and was so exhilarating. And
even when I'm when I'm my happiest, I'm doing that
kind of writing even now, where I just want to
I say what I want to say and I don't
care what anyone out there is going to think. I
pretend no one's going to read it, and it's just
me and the blank page, and I crave that, and
(12:59):
I and myself, you know, spending so much time doing
everything but writing, and it's profoundly unpleasant. Honey, I don't
know where i'd be. I don't know what else I
could do that would be as gratifying as writing, because
(13:20):
no one tells you what to do, what to say,
how to say it. This is the stuff that you
don't even know you feel until you write it down. Sometimes, right,
something's surprise me because I don't know how much I
care about certain things. I'll put it this way. The
thing that I love is what I don't understand. It
(13:42):
kind of pisces me off. But then I really realized
that we don't have the answers. Do you find yourself
writing toward answers? Uh? No, not answers understanding. I mean,
one of my characters has a drug problem. I have
another one that was in prison, incarcerated for twenty on
(14:04):
our years, and now he's out. I have no idea
what that feels like. And also, you know, I have
a tendency to judge people, um including myself. I am
just grateful for the opportunity to be able to be
(14:28):
honest about the life that I live, and about what
I feel and what I think, and how I've learned
that writing is really a good way of stepping outside
of your own comfort zone and being giving yourself permission
to be uncomfortable, especially when it doesn't because everything doesn't
revolve around me. I appreciate the fact that I even
(14:54):
have the capacity to give a ship. Am I allowed
to swear? Yes? Absolutely? Let it out? Oh, I just
gave one little one, um. But I mean, we have
an opportunity while we are alive to say what we mean,
what we see, what we feel, and if it's not
(15:16):
what we feel, what we assume other people feel, and
I can jump out of my own skin and out
of my own heart because to me, as a writer
and writing fiction, that's what you have to do. Not
to say that you can't plan it, No you can't.
I mean some you can try, but I have found
that you really can't. Know. It's always for me when
(15:36):
I try to overplan, it's forced, and it's not that
emotional connection that that I crave and that readers seem
to connect to in my work, just disappears. One of
the things that I always wonder about for someone you've
written I think ten novels over the past thirty seven years.
How do you sustain your love of writing and the
(15:59):
ups and down owns of dealing with publishing and touring
and just the publishing world. Like, what keeps you so
deeply invested in your craft? Well, to be very honest
with you, I almost feel like I don't have a choice.
It's not an intellectual decision. You know that I write
(16:20):
about what disturbs me and what I wish I could change,
including myself, even though I'm perfect. No, I had to
throw that, Yes, of course you did. I'll put this
way just here, one thing here. This has nothing to
do with my novel. Okay. I don't know where I was,
(16:41):
but it says I thought I was gonna live forever.
But I didn't. In fact, when some of my friends
started dropping off and leaving this world in their forties
and fifties, and the ones who felt lucky in their
sixties and seventies, I felt sorry for most of them
because they didn't seem to take this journey called life seriously.
They were dull, as if they chose their own line
(17:03):
of demarcation. I'll stop there. But the story, I don't
even know where it is. It's more to it. I
just thought I read. I don't know where it came from.
I don't know. But I'm saying to myself, what if
you could write about something after I mean not to
say that other writers haven't done it, but I haven't
done it. And I'm seventy, which I can't believe. And
(17:24):
I'm thinking, where where do you go from here? When
do you know enough is enough? Or there's still more?
And that's what made right. I have a lot more.
But the thing that's not the book I'm writing. Uh,
and I hope it's not my last book, since I'm
talking about and I'm not morbid. I don't. I'm not
(17:44):
thinking about dying at all that stuff, not even close.
I'm in third gear. I love that one of the
big themes, the primary themes in your work is friendship
and sisterhood between black women, and I know that has
brought millions of readers to your work. And you said,
(18:05):
sometimes you feel closely to your friends than you do
your own family, And so why is friendship so central
in your novels? Because I think that the love is unconditional,
and families you know you you kind of have them.
You know you can't get rid of your brother or
your sister. To me, sometimes friends feel the way family
(18:31):
members I would think should feel. Yes, I still have
a lot of good friends. I have friends from college still.
But we respect each other. We know we don't share
the same attitudes about some things, which is what makes
us good friends because we respect our differences. Sometimes we
get a divorce, but a lot of lives we know
(18:53):
we're always coming back. I mean, I've got a friend
hoestp too for a year, and then I called her
up and I said, hey, hell, you know it's a joke. Okay,
But but I just I believe in friendship, and friendship
to me, sometimes can be as strong as love. Sometimes
(19:16):
you trust your friends. And I mean I have male
friends too. I don't write about them as much. I
just I don't know. I feel I'm glad I'm a
woman and not a man. That's all I can say that.
Praise be for that. Every single day, not a day
goes by that I'm not grateful to be a woman.
I have to say, you know, I'll put this way.
(19:40):
What I also like is how we can change, not
just physically. But I don't feel the same way now
as I did two years ago, or five years ago
or ten years ago. And not to say that men don't,
but you know, they don't seem to share it the
same way. I'm like, still friends with my ex husband.
(20:00):
As much as i'd still like him, I can't quite
tell how he's evolved. Women, you can we share it.
You can say I feel like shit, I missed my mama.
You know, I wish my sister or my brother or
blah blah blah blah blah would understand what I'm doing,
(20:23):
why I'm doing it. I don't like having to explain.
I think about change a lot because parts Sometimes I
think people can't change and they're not going to change,
and other times I think no, people are capable of change,
and I think it's more individual than that. I don't
think you can make those sweeping statements, But what is
the biggest evolution that you've made in your life? I
(20:46):
gave up drinking. Oh, it's been about forty years or more.
First of all, I never drank a lot, but it
didn't take much to get me drunk, and I really
liized that this wasn't really doing it for me, and
so I just stopped drinking. But I think more than
(21:06):
anything too. I mean, I used to smoke cigarettes, but
I never could smoke a whole cigarette. And what I'm
not I know you're not talking just about habits and
stuff like that, but those things evolved and they turn
into other things they do. I never liked marijuana, but
I decided to be more honest with myself and basically
to stop bullshitting myself and to try to stop judging
(21:27):
other people, even though that has been very difficult. When
you figure out how to do that, please just let
me know. Um, I don't know. I realized that I
need to give myself more credit, not pat myself on
the back. I struggled with that, and I also struggled
(21:48):
with learning to not judge myself. I judge myself constantly. Um.
It's exhausting in fact, but you know, work in progress.
Definitely work in progress. You don't now in your latest book, Uh,
It's all downhill from here, which came out uh in
the very sort of beginning of COVID in March. I
(22:10):
have my book tour was canceled sixteen cities. Oh, come
on that had to stay because they hadn't even figured
out online events at that point. No, but my middle
name became MPR. I mean it was good, but the
bottom line is that when I found out it was canceled,
I was like, what do you mean My book tour
was canceled? People don't cancel book That was one of
(22:32):
the things that made me realize this was a little
deeper than we thought. That was. That's what did it
for me too, because I had, you know, been sort
of on this perpetual tour and I was going from
event to event, and then I was supposed to go
to Sydney, Australia, and the event was canceled because they
(22:53):
were like, we don't know if you'll be able to
get back into the US. And I was like, what
are you even talking about? And that's when I realized, oh,
this is serious. But at the time I told my
wife she was in New York, and I said, come
over for two I mean we were going back and
forth at that time and we were not yet married,
and I said, just come on, bring two weeks of clothing.
(23:15):
We should be able to like we really thought we would,
like everyone would stay in the little houses for two
weeks and the little virus would go away. Now two
years later, entering the third year, I think we all realized,
now it's a little more serious than that. Well, I
tell you what was really what I really knew it
was serious. When the I R S gave us more
time to be girl, I said September, and I was like,
(23:42):
there is a god. There is There isn't there is?
And I enjoyed that little extension, and I took advantage
of it. I sure sure did I know that in
the book It's all It's not all downhill from here?
You write about sex as we get older? By any chance,
(24:02):
did you read that recent article in the New York
Times about sex after seventy You know what, It's on
my floor. It's on my floor right under Betty what's
her name, Betty White. Yeah, it's it's on his pile.
I'll get to it good. One of the things I
was reading thinking about as I read it. It was
a very interesting article that showed a lot of different
(24:22):
sort of experiences that couples over seventy or having. And
I realized, we don't actually see a lot of stories
about what happens after I would say, even fifty which
is weird. People just seemed, especially for women, assume that
it's not there. So what did you sort of learn
(24:43):
about writing about intimacy for women of a certain age
when you were writing that novel? That a lot of
things that people think is true are not true. They
act like they act like you just dry up, um,
and that you have no desire. That as total bullshit.
I think this is this is based on some stuff
(25:04):
from the prehistoric days or something. I don't know, our
people stuff. Women women thought it wasn't appropriate to admit
that they still had orgasms and desire and all that,
and I mean like it was an embarrassment or something.
And I'm like, w tf, um, no, no, no, and
so my characters. And that's one of the that's why
(25:25):
it's called it's not all downhill from here. I mean,
you're literate, but I didn't mean just that obviously, that
you can be happy, you can find love at fifty
and sixty and seventy. Our body is still function and
we still have feelings. I just never buy into a
lot of stereotypes. You know, who is it They can
tell me about my body better than I can. I mean,
(25:48):
it's total bullshit that makes a lot of sense. I
I love that you explored that territory in the novel.
So you said you've been revising four pages a new novel. Yes,
do you talk about work in progress? Oh? I don't mind.
Oh good, We would love to hear. What is your
new novel about? Well, ironically, it's called Safety, and it
(26:11):
was called that before the pandemic. Uh, it was called
Finding Safety. And then you know, I mean, I like
Jaron's but um then my editor said, Terry, how about
just safety? And I said whatever. But it's a it's
about a group of people. The main character owns a diner,
so it's about all these people, about six or seven
(26:33):
of them that come to a diner. So it's a
multiple viewpoint story. But something kind of tragic happens to
someone who used to own the diner. But the characters
I love, I mean I love them. The story basically
is what happens to these people's lives when there's an
(26:54):
accident and the diner has to shut down. So you
weave in and out of each of these characters live
And you know, I've got prostitutes, I've got gamblers, I've
got I've got I mean people that have to learn
how to accept other people because these folks they ain't
big on gay people. But I got quite a few
of memo books just for that reason. Okay, and um
(27:16):
at different ethnicities and all kinds of stuff. But it's
it's kind of a family, and so it's just the
story is just about their journey on how they find
safety and where did the idea come from? And these characters?
How did these characters come to you? That's a good question.
I'm trying to think. I'm old, honey, I can't remember
(27:39):
a lot of stuff. Um right, to be very honest,
right this minute, I don't remember how all the characters
came about. But I knew that it was a diner.
It was the idea. I like the idea that people
and diners usually know each other in the diner, but
not outside of the diner, and people judge each other
by what they think they know about you. That is
(28:00):
true in real life, let's face it. But the diner
is a quaint space. I mean, I've got some guy
out of there's been in wrongfully incarcerated for twenty three
years and him coming out to the real world as
a whole new thing, and I have different ethnicity different.
I about seven main characters. Well, there's one main character
(28:23):
who owns the diner, and I just want to show
I tried to show what happens to them outside of
the diner, and how much they reveal in the diner.
And they lie to themselves and they lie to other people.
But as the reader, you know who's telling the truth
and who's lying and what. And the story is about
(28:46):
the trajectory of how they pretty much all end up
having to tell the truth. It just sounds wonderful and exciting.
I love ensemble narratives, and I also love a good
diner where you meet all the sort of interesting people
at the dinner. You should just do a tour of
diners and do readings of diners all across the country.
(29:07):
That's a good one. That is that's should thank you.
But you should see my menu for the diner that
I would love to know a little something on that menu.
Oh whoa. But the people that work in the diner
and come to the diner, I mean, I've got a
character her call they call them as slipping fall. You
(29:28):
know what that means right now? I don't where your
girl Nebraska? Yeah, I forgot, I'm being facetious okay, but no,
people that do everything so they can always have a
subtle get us up being waiting on a settlement. You
never knew any people like that? Huh No, And now
I know what you mean by slipping fallow. The people
who are like trying to get a lawsuit to get
(29:49):
a little Yeah, yeah, I got a character like that,
but all of them. But but the thing is this is,
you know, I love these people. There's something to get
on my nerves, but I have to write it like
they don't. How about you? When do you write? Listen,
it's a problem struggling. Are you a publisher? Now? I
(30:11):
am both a writer and a publisher. Yeah, yeah I am.
I'm actually slow your role because we miss you. Well
that's the thing. I miss you. I can speak for everybody,
and I love your articles in The New York Times.
But if I have two books coming out, thank you.
(30:31):
That's all I wanted to hear. Well, Terry McMillan, you
are always a delight and you have written so many
foundational novels for black women, and it's been a real
pleasure to have you on the Roxane Gay Agenda. Thank
you so much for taking the time this morning. Thank
you for inviting me. Of course, tell your mom and
daddy I will absolutely and a little dog that was
(30:58):
Terry McMillan, not ballist extraordinaire. You can keep up with
me and the podcast on social media on Twitter at
r g A Y and Instagram at Roxanne Gay seven four.
Our email is Roxanne Gay Agenda at gmail dot com,
and we would love to hear from you from Luminary.
The Roxanne Gay Podcast is produced by Curtis Fox, Our
(31:20):
intern is Yasena Moreno, and production support is provided by
Caitlin Adams. I'm Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist. Thanks
for listening.
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