April 5, 2022 • 27 mins
Roxane on the pleasures and perils of collecting art, and a conversation with one of the artists whose work she collects. Barbara Kruger came up through the magazine industry, where she applied her editorial design skills in the making of provocative, conceptual images, films and sculptures. She talks about her belated success, and how there’s not just one art world anymore.
Mentions:
● Barbara Krugers LACHMA exhibit https://www.lacma.org/art/exhibition/barbara-kruger
Credits: Curtis Fox is the producer. Our researcher is Yessenia Moreno. Production help from Kaitlyn Adams and Meg Pillow. Theme music by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
There's this warm, sharp, incredibly funny show on HBO Max
called Starstruck. Oh the other day, I was in Australia.
I was looking for something to watch and I saw
this and I thought, well, let me give it a go.
(00:21):
It's kind of like Nodding Hill, but with way more
awkwardness and humanity and hilarity. Rose Mattifao is not only
the star as Jesse, a New Zealander in London who
has a one night stand with Tom movie star. She
also wrote the show is a famous actor and you
were a little rat nobody hash, but it's true. Each
(00:44):
episode is around twenty two minutes long, so you can
consume the whole season and really a little more than
two hours. It's one of those shows where there are
ups and downs, but there's no trauma. There's nothing horrific.
It's just fun and warm and sweet, eat and loving.
And so if you have a chance, check out Starstruck,
(01:04):
which is not getting nearly the attention it deserves from luminary.
This is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast
of your Dreams. I am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist,
So on the Roxande Gay Agenda, I like to talk
about whatever is on my mind, and then I talked
(01:26):
with people who are really interesting to find out what's
on their mind. On this week's agenda, Art and the
collection thereof. As I've mentioned on this show before, I
came to art collecting rather late in life, because for
many years I admired art in museums, but I never
(01:48):
ever thought it was something that I could own in
my home because I would only really read about art
when it came to these massive, multimillion dollar sales. And
then I met my wife, Debbie, who has been an
avid art collector for nearly thirty years, and she showed
me that there are all kinds of price points between
four dogs at a poker table and bosc yacht. I
(02:13):
started trolling around art auctions and going to galleries and
meeting artists. So I started slowly building a collection, and
like many collections, it has now spiraled somewhat out of control.
But I just love it because every day I get
to look around my home and see art that intrigues
(02:34):
and challenges and provokes me. At the same time, though
there is a bit of a challenge, sometimes there's a
whole world to navigate as an art collector. And if
you're not wealthy or white, or heterosexual and sort of
the kinds of people they expect to see collecting, you
can run into all kinds of I don't know what
(02:57):
the word is, but challenges is the bigist sort of
container for it. Not everybody gets to buy the art
that they want. Galleries like to make strategic choices about
who they're going to sell art to, and oftentimes black
collectors are not on that list. You also, there's a
whole lingo you have to figure out how to negotiate
(03:19):
the price and make a good case for yourself. In
many ways, you have to audition to spend your own
hard earned money, and it can be for someone like
me who resists authority incredibly frustrating, and so I find
myself mostly getting my art through auctions and charity events,
(03:40):
and of course just going directly to artists and developing
relationships with them if I admire their practice. Regardless though,
what it really is about is not an investment for me.
It is just being able to be part of an
artistic community and engage with artists who do something so
(04:01):
different from what I do but also incredibly similar. We're
all just trying to make beautiful and interesting things to
leave in the world. And that brings me to today's guest.
I have three pieces by Barbara Kruger in my collection.
One is called Surveillance, is Your Busy Work, another is
Blind Idealism is Deadly, and the last, the most recent one,
(04:24):
is I Shop Therefore I Am. These are all interesting,
witty pieces, and every day I look at them and
I smile. Barbara Krueger is one of the great artists
of our time. Her work is bold, provocative, and visually arresting.
She pulls apart the intersections between gender, feminism, consumerism, and
(04:47):
power using principles of graphic design and propaganda. You might,
in fact say her work is its own kind of propaganda,
challenging the strictures of oppression and marginalization that far too
many people in this world face today. She lives and
works in Los Angeles, and she joins me via zoom.
Barbara Krueger, thank you so much for joining me on
(05:08):
the Roxanne Gay Agenda. Happy to be here, wonderful as
an artist. Does it feel strange for someone else to
quote unquote own your work? I wouldn't say it felt strange, No,
You know, when I first started beginning to think I
could call myself an artist. The notion of selling my
(05:31):
work would have been well, it was ridiculous because it
didn't happen. For a long time. For many of us,
the idea of showing had nothing to do with selling.
So one continues one's practice and one's work regardless of
whether it is border sold. I have little discomfort about
(05:55):
finally being able to make money off of what I do,
because for so many years I didn't. I never really
thought much about being an artist artist. I have maybe
a year and a half of school, no undergraduate or
graduate degrees anywhere. The so called art world, which at
(06:17):
that time was twelve white guys in Lower Manhattan, was
incredibly you know, forbidding and narrow place. So you know now,
I know when you entered the art world you initially
felt marginalized and were you know, especially at that time,
and not much frankly has changed, where women still are
(06:40):
dealing with a lot of systemic issues. Do you still
feel that way that you are sort of working as
an outsider inside the art world. No, No, I would
be deluded to feel that way. Uh, it's still in
many ways, and I've said this before, really astounds me
(07:01):
that people know my name and my work, because although
I've worked hard and tried to be vigilant about the
meanings I'm making, who is seen and who is not
can be so arbitrary in the cruelest of ways, and
the fact that I have emerged visibly the way I
(07:22):
have is it's both incredibly gratifying and a goof wow.
I never expected this kind of visibility and prominence, and
I never take it for granted. Do you enjoy this
kind of visibility and prominence. I am an incredibly self
(07:45):
conscious person and all the publicness involved really stresses me.
I get great pleasure out of trying to make my
work out of installing it, which to me is anxiety
provoking but very pleasurable. But the whole deal about openings
and dinners and all that, I can't. I just can't
(08:06):
stand that. I'm very bad at that. I actually understand
that because as a writer, I write to stay behind
the scenes. I have no interest in ever being in
front of a camera, and the greatest surprise of my
career has been the alarming frequency with which I have
to be in front of a camera. Do you ever
(08:27):
decide you know what I'm not going to play that
game today. I'm not gonna do all the glad handing
and the interviewing, and I'm just going to make my work. Well,
I should say, I am never in front of a camera.
I would rather go to Hell than be in front
of a camera. So the camera on my device is covered.
I haven't done TV or zoom live interviews in decades,
(08:52):
you know, And in terms of public panels discussions, I
haven't done that in twenty years. So I've sort of
tried to figure out a way to make my meaning
and make it reach people, and hopefully focus on what
that work is rather than my own particular visage or backstory.
(09:16):
One of your most well known pieces is Your Body
is a Battleground, which I know you made in support
of the Women's March, and especially in the past two years,
we've seen that roe versus Wade is under attack. It
always has been, but now that attack seems to be succeeding.
How does it feel to know that this piece you
(09:38):
made more than twenty years ago remains timely and could
just as easily speak to the current times as it
did back then. Well, you know, I was thinking recently,
you know, I would like to live forever. I'd like
to live forever with a minimum amount of pain, But
I wouldn't mind if my work became archaic. M hm.
(10:01):
You know, I I just think, of course, what's happening
now around women's reproductive rights, what's happening globally right now.
I just feel that no one should be shocked at
anything now, because that just signifies a failure of imagination,
and that failure of imagination has somehow allowed certain things
(10:24):
to proceed as they are, especially in this country. You know.
One of the things I've noticed about your work, you
came up in an era where magazines and television and
film where these dominant cultural forms, and now it's more
the internet and social media. But I find that your
work has translated extremely well in the new media environment.
(10:45):
What do you think has given your work this timeless quality,
both in terms of message and in terms of aesthetic. Well,
thank you for that, first of all, but I think
a number of things. Firstly, being an editorial to's miner
really taught me a certain kind of economy of presentation.
(11:06):
And that doesn't necessarily mean that the visuals like create
are simple. It just means that their mode of address
sort of cuts through the grease on a certain level.
And I think that, tied with my own short attention span,
has really allowed for me to develop a vocabulary that
(11:29):
that hopefully others can take in and read in the
same way that I have. Now I do durational works,
I do you know, video and time based works which
ask for a different kind of attention, but they still
are rather direct and involve a language which is very secular,
(11:49):
very in the world, one that I understand and speak.
One of the other things that strikes me about your
work is how many media you work as us You
do photography, sculpture, print work, video and live performance. How
do you decide which medium is going to be most
(12:11):
effective for what you're trying to do with a given piece?
You know, I think all work is site specific on
a certain level, So you just figure out on a
visual level. For instance, in terms of the scale of work,
you know what the sight lines are, how available will
it be? Is it outdoors? Will people walk by, will
(12:31):
they drive by? How much time can one give to
a work In a durational work, I make sure if
it's indoors to have places to sit, comfortable places to sit,
to give people time to try to, you know, read
what I'm writing and showing. I basically think again that
all my exhibitions are outdoor projects, are opportunities, and it
(12:58):
is thrilling for me to really lives so many opportunities,
especially right now coming up now, what's going on now
with me is since I'm not twenty five anymore. Um,
it's great to have these happening, even if it started
kind of late for me. I am so appreciative of it.
So let's talk about that. How you started and you
(13:21):
we originally working in editorial design for magazines, right, Conde Nast, Mademoiselle,
House and Garden. Yeah, when did you decide I want
to do something more than this or in addition to this?
At that point, it was not really supported the idea
of doing work that looked anything like the work I
(13:43):
did for a job. And what I saw was my
job morph on the level of meaning into my work
as an artist. So it was great to take that
skill that I had developed as a designer and make
it speak for me rather than have it be a
client based relationship where I was, you know, selling a
(14:06):
sweater or this or that. To put different meaning into
those words, that was revelatory for me to think I
could do that and that work would become part of
a conversation. How are you as your own client? Are
you hard on yourself creatively? No, I just think I
try to be vigilant about how good and how short
(14:30):
my reality testing is. You know, I think I'm a
pretty good editor of my work. I mean, it's clear
to me when stuff fails and when it works, and
sometimes it works for me and not for everyone. Again,
you can't be everyone's you know, perfect moment and if
any perfect moment, So you know, it's just I see
(14:53):
it as a process rather than an end product. But
also then I just wanted to say, you know, the
questions are for me, but for you and your visibility
and the amazing amount of projects that you are involved
with simultaneously. It's just so sort of mind blowing and
(15:14):
impressive to me. I was wondering how you deal with
so many things at once and how that motors your
pleasures and engagements. That is the question. You know, it's challenging.
I love what I do very very much, writing and
reading our my first loves and they will be my last.
(15:36):
When you spend so many years struggling to make it
as a writer. When you start to make it, you decide, oh,
I have to say yes to everything, because this could
be the last opportunity. No matter how secure you think
you are, there's always this nagging sense that I'll let
me say yes to this other thing just in case.
And so I find it to be incredibly overwhelming, both
(15:58):
in a good way and a not so good way.
All of the projects I'm working on thrill me in
one way or another, and I am finally at a
point where I can say no to things that just
don't interest me anymore, like, because I get a lot
of ridiculous requests for things that are not in my
wheelhouse that I can tell they're just you know, like
looking for like a token black person and don't really
(16:20):
care about what I personally could bring to the project.
So I'm glad to be in a place where I
can say no to that. But I just miss a
lot of deadlines, a lot of deadlines. I'm not proud
of it, but there are only so many hours in
my day. I have an assistant, and so with that
support behind the scenes, it does free me up to
(16:41):
make my podcast and write my books and work on
some film and television projects and things like that. So
I just it's a it's a constant, constant balancing act,
and sometimes I dropped the ball, but I am trying
to say no more. It's very hard for me to
(17:01):
say no to people because then they get disappointed and
then they come back and they like, I think I'm
saying no as a negotiating tactic, when in fact I'm
saying no because I simply can't do the thing they're asking.
So I just try to keep it all together. And
what about in the midst of all these multitudes, how
(17:22):
does that feel on a level of stress for instance, Well,
stress levels are pretty high. It's it doesn't feel great.
And in fact, I go to therapy twice a week.
And the key thing other than like my normal ship
that we've been talking about is how I can declutter
(17:44):
and de busy my life and do what I really
want to do, which is right. Every time we talk
about it and sort of she gives me some ideas
for like how I could approach you know, like finding
the backbone and be like, you know what, I'm not
going to be able to do this thing after all, etcetera.
I feel slightly less us and so I can tell
that my stress level right now is simply because I've
(18:04):
over committed. I know that i'mlike many artists. You won't
work with assistance, that you prefer to just do it
all yourself. Why you know, I've just found that, um,
that sort of lean machine thing kind of works for me.
But I just feel that I get more done. I
think more economically in terms of you know, how I
(18:26):
schedule things, and I I really don't take anything on
that I feel I can't honor that commitment because otherwise, again,
I I want to really try to minimize the stress
going down every day. You know, Yeah, that totally makes sense.
(18:46):
And you know, as a control freak, that's why it
Like I do all my own writing. I could never
sort of outsource it because then it wouldn't be me,
it would be someone else. And so I totally get
like that sort of single voice sing o vision thing.
I know that you just finished an install it LACMA
in Los Angeles, and before that, this installation was at
(19:08):
the Institute of Chicago. So what is this installation about
for people who may want to go check it out. Well,
the exhibition is called Thinking of You Crossed Out. I
mean me crossed out I mean you, So it just UM.
The exhibition I did twenty years ago at Mocha and
at the Whitney was called Thinking of You. I mean,
(19:30):
what this is is just a sort of UM, rethinking, replaying.
There's lots of new work in the show, most of
it moving image work, and it's sort of UM and editing,
a redoing of certain ideas that I've engaged in the past,
but also working out some new visual solutions and UM.
(19:54):
In Chicago it was it was very huge show, and
I'm so appreciative for the institute pations that have supported
me because for so many decades I was not visible
in American museums. In LA it's a different show because
the space is so different and architecture is my first engagement. UM.
Design in the built environment was always something that was
(20:17):
important to me. One of the reasons I loved being
in l A was its history of architectural, residential structures
and modernisms. And so part of the fun of it
is to spatialize my work, to make it change from
space and place to place, and it'll further progress in
New York and I'm also doing an exhibition on the
(20:40):
floor of the Noya National Gallery in Berlin, which is
the Mace Building. This is an incredibly important time for
me and my work, and I'm so appreciative. I'm never
blag about any of it. Do you feel at the
stage of your career that the art world is recognizing
your work in the way it deserves to be recognized. Listen,
(21:04):
I have no complaints. But what we are seeing in
the last five years is a real historical reset and
what is visible within the art world, both in terms
of genders and of course in terms of race and
all of this is a catch up game for centuries
(21:24):
of marginality. So um, this is a change which not
only is reflected in what is seen in galleries and museums,
but also how museums and institutions are run. You know
who constitutes their boards, their curators, their directorships. It's absolutely
(21:46):
urgent that these changes are happening and continue to happen
and not just be symbolic, but be in the real
and part of a changing process. Do you think that
these changes are going to be sustained or that this
is a moment. I think it's both a moment and
we'll be ongoing and will happen in fits and starts.
(22:10):
But we will not be going back to the way
it was. But I think that this represents a crisis
in terms of cultural funding in this country, you know,
and what philanthropy means. I just read this morning that, um,
I see the new mayor of New York has cut
the cultural funding. Um. You know, I don't know how
(22:30):
that's going to play out, but of course this is
always a challenge here in America. Years ago, corporations would
you know, fund shows, but you know how many people
wanted a show, and like in like the Philip Morris
Galleries or the bp Pavilion. You know, it's um and
these changes are important and they will be ongoing, and
we see it not just here but in Europe and
(22:52):
other places to yes, And you know that's the challenge.
When there isn't public funding for art, you have to
then think do I want this private funding to make
my work possible? Especially and we've seen that in recent
years with the Sacklers, and now their names are coming
off museums left and right because people are realizing, oh,
(23:12):
we don't actually want to be associated with these people.
So I know that you because you teach, you encounter
a lot of rising artists. Are there any artists working
today that are really intriguing you and catching your eye?
I am very bad at lists. I really resistant because
(23:33):
I'm afraid that when I mentioned there were some people
I won't mention. Let's just say this. I literally am
so thankful that the so called art world is no
longer a singular, that it is a plural made up
of so many different kinds of people who can call
themselves artists and tell stories and show and tell subjectivities
(23:58):
that were never visit, never seen and heard before. So
in many ways, like you were mentioning in your intro,
sometimes well, first of all, the visual arts are so
marginalized in this country that frequently the only thing people
do know about it is certain secondary market auction prices
or stuff like that, or n f T s and
(24:20):
all that, and it's fifty nine billion dollars and all that.
But that's really not what making art and creating commentary
means to most artists, you know, it's how, somehow they
can show and tell what it means, not on a
literal level, but to live another day, to take another breath,
to be in this world. And it comes out in
(24:43):
so many different ways and now better than ever, because
it's such a very group of people who are now
making art, calling themselves artists, and having their work visible
not only in so called alternative structures, but within gallery structure.
And sometimes when they're very young, they will start selling work.
(25:04):
But I always remind them, you know, never to take
it too personally, because I truly believe that no work
of art, no piece of music, no writing, is ever
as amazing and major and extraordinary, or as flawed and
(25:25):
damaged and minor as is written to be. You know,
so much of our work is so explained through a
hyperbolic lens, which is not always helpful. So I think
I always encourage students to see the development of their
work as a process. Sometimes you're gonna be flavor of
(25:47):
the week, but one considers the brutal fickleness of a
market culture, and that one continues to make work regardless
of those sort of nice cities or punishments. You know,
I think that's an important lesson for all creative people,
(26:09):
because the market is indeed fickle um and creativity is
a lifelong thing. Barbara Kruger, it has been a genuine
pleasure to speak with you this afternoon Thank you so
so much for joining me on the Roxanne Gay Agenda.
Thank you, thank you so much. If you are in
Los Angeles or coming to Los Angeles anytime soon, you
(26:30):
can see Barbara Cruger's show at the Los Angeles County
Museum of Art or LACMA, through July sevent That show
is thinking of you, I mean me, I mean you.
You can keep up with me and the podcast on
social media on Twitter at our Gay and Instagram at
(26:51):
Roxanne Gay seven four. Our email is Roxanne Gay Agenda
at gmail dot com, and we would love to hear
from you from Luminary. The Rocks and Gay Agenda is
produced by Curtis Fox, our researcher as Yagya Moreno. Production
support is provided by Caitlin Adams and Meg Pillow. I
am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bed feminist. Thank you so
(27:12):
much for listening.
There's this warm, sharp, incredibly funny show on HBO Max
called Starstruck. Oh the other day, I was in Australia.
I was looking for something to watch and I saw
this and I thought, well, let me give it a go.
(00:21):
It's kind of like Nodding Hill, but with way more
awkwardness and humanity and hilarity. Rose Mattifao is not only
the star as Jesse, a New Zealander in London who
has a one night stand with Tom movie star. She
also wrote the show is a famous actor and you
were a little rat nobody hash, but it's true. Each
(00:44):
episode is around twenty two minutes long, so you can
consume the whole season and really a little more than
two hours. It's one of those shows where there are
ups and downs, but there's no trauma. There's nothing horrific.
It's just fun and warm and sweet, eat and loving.
And so if you have a chance, check out Starstruck,
(01:04):
which is not getting nearly the attention it deserves from luminary.
This is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast
of your Dreams. I am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bad feminist,
So on the Roxande Gay Agenda, I like to talk
about whatever is on my mind, and then I talked
(01:26):
with people who are really interesting to find out what's
on their mind. On this week's agenda, Art and the
collection thereof. As I've mentioned on this show before, I
came to art collecting rather late in life, because for
many years I admired art in museums, but I never
(01:48):
ever thought it was something that I could own in
my home because I would only really read about art
when it came to these massive, multimillion dollar sales. And
then I met my wife, Debbie, who has been an
avid art collector for nearly thirty years, and she showed
me that there are all kinds of price points between
four dogs at a poker table and bosc yacht. I
(02:13):
started trolling around art auctions and going to galleries and
meeting artists. So I started slowly building a collection, and
like many collections, it has now spiraled somewhat out of control.
But I just love it because every day I get
to look around my home and see art that intrigues
(02:34):
and challenges and provokes me. At the same time, though
there is a bit of a challenge, sometimes there's a
whole world to navigate as an art collector. And if
you're not wealthy or white, or heterosexual and sort of
the kinds of people they expect to see collecting, you
can run into all kinds of I don't know what
(02:57):
the word is, but challenges is the bigist sort of
container for it. Not everybody gets to buy the art
that they want. Galleries like to make strategic choices about
who they're going to sell art to, and oftentimes black
collectors are not on that list. You also, there's a
whole lingo you have to figure out how to negotiate
(03:19):
the price and make a good case for yourself. In
many ways, you have to audition to spend your own
hard earned money, and it can be for someone like
me who resists authority incredibly frustrating, and so I find
myself mostly getting my art through auctions and charity events,
(03:40):
and of course just going directly to artists and developing
relationships with them if I admire their practice. Regardless though,
what it really is about is not an investment for me.
It is just being able to be part of an
artistic community and engage with artists who do something so
(04:01):
different from what I do but also incredibly similar. We're
all just trying to make beautiful and interesting things to
leave in the world. And that brings me to today's guest.
I have three pieces by Barbara Kruger in my collection.
One is called Surveillance, is Your Busy Work, another is
Blind Idealism is Deadly, and the last, the most recent one,
(04:24):
is I Shop Therefore I Am. These are all interesting,
witty pieces, and every day I look at them and
I smile. Barbara Krueger is one of the great artists
of our time. Her work is bold, provocative, and visually arresting.
She pulls apart the intersections between gender, feminism, consumerism, and
(04:47):
power using principles of graphic design and propaganda. You might,
in fact say her work is its own kind of propaganda,
challenging the strictures of oppression and marginalization that far too
many people in this world face today. She lives and
works in Los Angeles, and she joins me via zoom.
Barbara Krueger, thank you so much for joining me on
(05:08):
the Roxanne Gay Agenda. Happy to be here, wonderful as
an artist. Does it feel strange for someone else to
quote unquote own your work? I wouldn't say it felt strange, No,
You know, when I first started beginning to think I
could call myself an artist. The notion of selling my
(05:31):
work would have been well, it was ridiculous because it
didn't happen. For a long time. For many of us,
the idea of showing had nothing to do with selling.
So one continues one's practice and one's work regardless of
whether it is border sold. I have little discomfort about
(05:55):
finally being able to make money off of what I do,
because for so many years I didn't. I never really
thought much about being an artist artist. I have maybe
a year and a half of school, no undergraduate or
graduate degrees anywhere. The so called art world, which at
(06:17):
that time was twelve white guys in Lower Manhattan, was
incredibly you know, forbidding and narrow place. So you know now,
I know when you entered the art world you initially
felt marginalized and were you know, especially at that time,
and not much frankly has changed, where women still are
(06:40):
dealing with a lot of systemic issues. Do you still
feel that way that you are sort of working as
an outsider inside the art world. No, No, I would
be deluded to feel that way. Uh, it's still in
many ways, and I've said this before, really astounds me
(07:01):
that people know my name and my work, because although
I've worked hard and tried to be vigilant about the
meanings I'm making, who is seen and who is not
can be so arbitrary in the cruelest of ways, and
the fact that I have emerged visibly the way I
(07:22):
have is it's both incredibly gratifying and a goof wow.
I never expected this kind of visibility and prominence, and
I never take it for granted. Do you enjoy this
kind of visibility and prominence. I am an incredibly self
(07:45):
conscious person and all the publicness involved really stresses me.
I get great pleasure out of trying to make my
work out of installing it, which to me is anxiety
provoking but very pleasurable. But the whole deal about openings
and dinners and all that, I can't. I just can't
(08:06):
stand that. I'm very bad at that. I actually understand
that because as a writer, I write to stay behind
the scenes. I have no interest in ever being in
front of a camera, and the greatest surprise of my
career has been the alarming frequency with which I have
to be in front of a camera. Do you ever
(08:27):
decide you know what I'm not going to play that
game today. I'm not gonna do all the glad handing
and the interviewing, and I'm just going to make my work. Well,
I should say, I am never in front of a camera.
I would rather go to Hell than be in front
of a camera. So the camera on my device is covered.
I haven't done TV or zoom live interviews in decades,
(08:52):
you know, And in terms of public panels discussions, I
haven't done that in twenty years. So I've sort of
tried to figure out a way to make my meaning
and make it reach people, and hopefully focus on what
that work is rather than my own particular visage or backstory.
(09:16):
One of your most well known pieces is Your Body
is a Battleground, which I know you made in support
of the Women's March, and especially in the past two years,
we've seen that roe versus Wade is under attack. It
always has been, but now that attack seems to be succeeding.
How does it feel to know that this piece you
(09:38):
made more than twenty years ago remains timely and could
just as easily speak to the current times as it
did back then. Well, you know, I was thinking recently,
you know, I would like to live forever. I'd like
to live forever with a minimum amount of pain, But
I wouldn't mind if my work became archaic. M hm.
(10:01):
You know, I I just think, of course, what's happening
now around women's reproductive rights, what's happening globally right now.
I just feel that no one should be shocked at
anything now, because that just signifies a failure of imagination,
and that failure of imagination has somehow allowed certain things
(10:24):
to proceed as they are, especially in this country. You know.
One of the things I've noticed about your work, you
came up in an era where magazines and television and
film where these dominant cultural forms, and now it's more
the internet and social media. But I find that your
work has translated extremely well in the new media environment.
(10:45):
What do you think has given your work this timeless quality,
both in terms of message and in terms of aesthetic. Well,
thank you for that, first of all, but I think
a number of things. Firstly, being an editorial to's miner
really taught me a certain kind of economy of presentation.
(11:06):
And that doesn't necessarily mean that the visuals like create
are simple. It just means that their mode of address
sort of cuts through the grease on a certain level.
And I think that, tied with my own short attention span,
has really allowed for me to develop a vocabulary that
(11:29):
that hopefully others can take in and read in the
same way that I have. Now I do durational works,
I do you know, video and time based works which
ask for a different kind of attention, but they still
are rather direct and involve a language which is very secular,
(11:49):
very in the world, one that I understand and speak.
One of the other things that strikes me about your
work is how many media you work as us You
do photography, sculpture, print work, video and live performance. How
do you decide which medium is going to be most
(12:11):
effective for what you're trying to do with a given piece?
You know, I think all work is site specific on
a certain level, So you just figure out on a
visual level. For instance, in terms of the scale of work,
you know what the sight lines are, how available will
it be? Is it outdoors? Will people walk by, will
(12:31):
they drive by? How much time can one give to
a work In a durational work, I make sure if
it's indoors to have places to sit, comfortable places to sit,
to give people time to try to, you know, read
what I'm writing and showing. I basically think again that
all my exhibitions are outdoor projects, are opportunities, and it
(12:58):
is thrilling for me to really lives so many opportunities,
especially right now coming up now, what's going on now
with me is since I'm not twenty five anymore. Um,
it's great to have these happening, even if it started
kind of late for me. I am so appreciative of it.
So let's talk about that. How you started and you
(13:21):
we originally working in editorial design for magazines, right, Conde Nast, Mademoiselle,
House and Garden. Yeah, when did you decide I want
to do something more than this or in addition to this?
At that point, it was not really supported the idea
of doing work that looked anything like the work I
(13:43):
did for a job. And what I saw was my
job morph on the level of meaning into my work
as an artist. So it was great to take that
skill that I had developed as a designer and make
it speak for me rather than have it be a
client based relationship where I was, you know, selling a
(14:06):
sweater or this or that. To put different meaning into
those words, that was revelatory for me to think I
could do that and that work would become part of
a conversation. How are you as your own client? Are
you hard on yourself creatively? No, I just think I
try to be vigilant about how good and how short
(14:30):
my reality testing is. You know, I think I'm a
pretty good editor of my work. I mean, it's clear
to me when stuff fails and when it works, and
sometimes it works for me and not for everyone. Again,
you can't be everyone's you know, perfect moment and if
any perfect moment, So you know, it's just I see
(14:53):
it as a process rather than an end product. But
also then I just wanted to say, you know, the
questions are for me, but for you and your visibility
and the amazing amount of projects that you are involved
with simultaneously. It's just so sort of mind blowing and
(15:14):
impressive to me. I was wondering how you deal with
so many things at once and how that motors your
pleasures and engagements. That is the question. You know, it's challenging.
I love what I do very very much, writing and
reading our my first loves and they will be my last.
(15:36):
When you spend so many years struggling to make it
as a writer. When you start to make it, you decide, oh,
I have to say yes to everything, because this could
be the last opportunity. No matter how secure you think
you are, there's always this nagging sense that I'll let
me say yes to this other thing just in case.
And so I find it to be incredibly overwhelming, both
(15:58):
in a good way and a not so good way.
All of the projects I'm working on thrill me in
one way or another, and I am finally at a
point where I can say no to things that just
don't interest me anymore, like, because I get a lot
of ridiculous requests for things that are not in my
wheelhouse that I can tell they're just you know, like
looking for like a token black person and don't really
(16:20):
care about what I personally could bring to the project.
So I'm glad to be in a place where I
can say no to that. But I just miss a
lot of deadlines, a lot of deadlines. I'm not proud
of it, but there are only so many hours in
my day. I have an assistant, and so with that
support behind the scenes, it does free me up to
(16:41):
make my podcast and write my books and work on
some film and television projects and things like that. So
I just it's a it's a constant, constant balancing act,
and sometimes I dropped the ball, but I am trying
to say no more. It's very hard for me to
(17:01):
say no to people because then they get disappointed and
then they come back and they like, I think I'm
saying no as a negotiating tactic, when in fact I'm
saying no because I simply can't do the thing they're asking.
So I just try to keep it all together. And
what about in the midst of all these multitudes, how
(17:22):
does that feel on a level of stress for instance, Well,
stress levels are pretty high. It's it doesn't feel great.
And in fact, I go to therapy twice a week.
And the key thing other than like my normal ship
that we've been talking about is how I can declutter
(17:44):
and de busy my life and do what I really
want to do, which is right. Every time we talk
about it and sort of she gives me some ideas
for like how I could approach you know, like finding
the backbone and be like, you know what, I'm not
going to be able to do this thing after all, etcetera.
I feel slightly less us and so I can tell
that my stress level right now is simply because I've
(18:04):
over committed. I know that i'mlike many artists. You won't
work with assistance, that you prefer to just do it
all yourself. Why you know, I've just found that, um,
that sort of lean machine thing kind of works for me.
But I just feel that I get more done. I
think more economically in terms of you know, how I
(18:26):
schedule things, and I I really don't take anything on
that I feel I can't honor that commitment because otherwise, again,
I I want to really try to minimize the stress
going down every day. You know, Yeah, that totally makes sense.
(18:46):
And you know, as a control freak, that's why it
Like I do all my own writing. I could never
sort of outsource it because then it wouldn't be me,
it would be someone else. And so I totally get
like that sort of single voice sing o vision thing.
I know that you just finished an install it LACMA
in Los Angeles, and before that, this installation was at
(19:08):
the Institute of Chicago. So what is this installation about
for people who may want to go check it out. Well,
the exhibition is called Thinking of You Crossed Out. I
mean me crossed out I mean you, So it just UM.
The exhibition I did twenty years ago at Mocha and
at the Whitney was called Thinking of You. I mean,
(19:30):
what this is is just a sort of UM, rethinking, replaying.
There's lots of new work in the show, most of
it moving image work, and it's sort of UM and editing,
a redoing of certain ideas that I've engaged in the past,
but also working out some new visual solutions and UM.
(19:54):
In Chicago it was it was very huge show, and
I'm so appreciative for the institute pations that have supported
me because for so many decades I was not visible
in American museums. In LA it's a different show because
the space is so different and architecture is my first engagement. UM.
Design in the built environment was always something that was
(20:17):
important to me. One of the reasons I loved being
in l A was its history of architectural, residential structures
and modernisms. And so part of the fun of it
is to spatialize my work, to make it change from
space and place to place, and it'll further progress in
New York and I'm also doing an exhibition on the
(20:40):
floor of the Noya National Gallery in Berlin, which is
the Mace Building. This is an incredibly important time for
me and my work, and I'm so appreciative. I'm never
blag about any of it. Do you feel at the
stage of your career that the art world is recognizing
your work in the way it deserves to be recognized. Listen,
(21:04):
I have no complaints. But what we are seeing in
the last five years is a real historical reset and
what is visible within the art world, both in terms
of genders and of course in terms of race and
all of this is a catch up game for centuries
(21:24):
of marginality. So um, this is a change which not
only is reflected in what is seen in galleries and museums,
but also how museums and institutions are run. You know
who constitutes their boards, their curators, their directorships. It's absolutely
(21:46):
urgent that these changes are happening and continue to happen
and not just be symbolic, but be in the real
and part of a changing process. Do you think that
these changes are going to be sustained or that this
is a moment. I think it's both a moment and
we'll be ongoing and will happen in fits and starts.
(22:10):
But we will not be going back to the way
it was. But I think that this represents a crisis
in terms of cultural funding in this country, you know,
and what philanthropy means. I just read this morning that, um,
I see the new mayor of New York has cut
the cultural funding. Um. You know, I don't know how
(22:30):
that's going to play out, but of course this is
always a challenge here in America. Years ago, corporations would
you know, fund shows, but you know how many people
wanted a show, and like in like the Philip Morris
Galleries or the bp Pavilion. You know, it's um and
these changes are important and they will be ongoing, and
we see it not just here but in Europe and
(22:52):
other places to yes, And you know that's the challenge.
When there isn't public funding for art, you have to
then think do I want this private funding to make
my work possible? Especially and we've seen that in recent
years with the Sacklers, and now their names are coming
off museums left and right because people are realizing, oh,
(23:12):
we don't actually want to be associated with these people.
So I know that you because you teach, you encounter
a lot of rising artists. Are there any artists working
today that are really intriguing you and catching your eye?
I am very bad at lists. I really resistant because
(23:33):
I'm afraid that when I mentioned there were some people
I won't mention. Let's just say this. I literally am
so thankful that the so called art world is no
longer a singular, that it is a plural made up
of so many different kinds of people who can call
themselves artists and tell stories and show and tell subjectivities
(23:58):
that were never visit, never seen and heard before. So
in many ways, like you were mentioning in your intro,
sometimes well, first of all, the visual arts are so
marginalized in this country that frequently the only thing people
do know about it is certain secondary market auction prices
or stuff like that, or n f T s and
(24:20):
all that, and it's fifty nine billion dollars and all that.
But that's really not what making art and creating commentary
means to most artists, you know, it's how, somehow they
can show and tell what it means, not on a
literal level, but to live another day, to take another breath,
to be in this world. And it comes out in
(24:43):
so many different ways and now better than ever, because
it's such a very group of people who are now
making art, calling themselves artists, and having their work visible
not only in so called alternative structures, but within gallery structure.
And sometimes when they're very young, they will start selling work.
(25:04):
But I always remind them, you know, never to take
it too personally, because I truly believe that no work
of art, no piece of music, no writing, is ever
as amazing and major and extraordinary, or as flawed and
(25:25):
damaged and minor as is written to be. You know,
so much of our work is so explained through a
hyperbolic lens, which is not always helpful. So I think
I always encourage students to see the development of their
work as a process. Sometimes you're gonna be flavor of
(25:47):
the week, but one considers the brutal fickleness of a
market culture, and that one continues to make work regardless
of those sort of nice cities or punishments. You know,
I think that's an important lesson for all creative people,
(26:09):
because the market is indeed fickle um and creativity is
a lifelong thing. Barbara Kruger, it has been a genuine
pleasure to speak with you this afternoon Thank you so
so much for joining me on the Roxanne Gay Agenda.
Thank you, thank you so much. If you are in
Los Angeles or coming to Los Angeles anytime soon, you
(26:30):
can see Barbara Cruger's show at the Los Angeles County
Museum of Art or LACMA, through July sevent That show
is thinking of you, I mean me, I mean you.
You can keep up with me and the podcast on
social media on Twitter at our Gay and Instagram at
(26:51):
Roxanne Gay seven four. Our email is Roxanne Gay Agenda
at gmail dot com, and we would love to hear
from you from Luminary. The Rocks and Gay Agenda is
produced by Curtis Fox, our researcher as Yagya Moreno. Production
support is provided by Caitlin Adams and Meg Pillow. I
am Roxanne Gay, your favorite bed feminist. Thank you so
(27:12):
much for listening.
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