May 15, 2024 • 41 mins
When I think about Black women’s humor, I think about the subtle glances we share when something ridiculous happens in public, the physicality of slapping each other on the back after a really good joke, or the ways in which you can always tell just how a girlfriend is feeling by looking at the expression on her face. Even when meeting a Black woman who is a complete stranger, we still find ways to connect over our shared sense of humor.
To talk a little more about the subtle nuances of Black women’s humor, and why humor is so sacred to us, today we're joined by professor, researcher, and Black humor scholar, Dr. Erica-Brittany Horhn. During our conversation, we chat about what makes Black women so funny, how Black women have historically used humor to combat the psychological impacts of oppression, and the ways in which Black women’s humor is passed down generationally.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty nine of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi. I'm doctor Erica Britney Horn, and I'm on the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
When I think about black women's humor, I think about
the subtle glances we share when something ridiculous happens in public,
The physicality of slapping each other on the back after
a really good joke. Are the ways in which you
can always tell just how a girlfriend is feeling by
looking at the expression on her face. Even when meeting
a Black woman who is a complete stranger, we still
(01:40):
find ways to connect over our shared sins of humor
to talk a little more about the subtle nuances of
black women's humor and why humor is so sacred to us.
I'm joined today by professor, researcher, and Black humor scholar,
doctor Erica Britney Horn. In twenty twenty, doctor Horn published
her dissertation Sassy Subversions, Knowing Glances and Black Women's Laughter,
(02:04):
Moving towards a Black Woman's Pedagogy of Humor, earning her
PhD in Educational Studies from the University of North Carolina.
During our conversation, we chat about what makes black women
so funny, how Black women have historically used humor to
combat the psychological impacts of oppression, and the ways in
which black women's humor is passed down generationally. If something
(02:26):
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session
or join us over in the sister circles To talk
more about the episode. You can join us at community
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you,
(02:47):
so much for joining us today, doctor Horn.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Of course, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I want
to get the title correct. The title of your twenty
twenty dissertation was Sassy Subversion, Knowing Glances and Black Women's Laughter,
moving towards a Black Woman's Pedagogy of Humor.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So one, I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Very curious about that title, and I also want to
hear what motivated you to use this at your study.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, we love a good title in academics, and we
love a colon on top of the colon. But for me,
one of the big pieces for humor studies was the
ways that I always found that black women in particular
were funny, even when they didn't think they were being funny.
So for me in my own personal life, I always
(03:35):
tell the story about how I was born laughing, and
people are like, why would you say something that ridiculous,
But it's true, So instead of coming out crying, I
was born with this little chuckle. Apparently my mom said,
it's an embarrassing story, but it is one that we
tell all the time. So from there I just really
(03:57):
realized and started to admire the black women my household
and we saw that black women were always laughing at
something or about something, and it's just something to be
said about the ways that when we get together there
is laughter or humor somewhere. So I really wanted to
capture the ways that black women in particular are always
(04:21):
making light of situations in good and bad ways, but
in ways that don't happen on the comedic stage. So
I wasn't concerned with stand up right, but more so
just the everyday Black women in her humor.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Ooh, I love that, the everyday humor and it is
very deep for sure. So can you share some of
the key findings and the major themes.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
From your study? So one of the things I studied
most actually was es race insecure. So in a study
like this, I really had to figure out where to study.
And I noticed I wanted to look at a lot
of the media that portrayed black women in their sisters.
So when we get these friend groups together, what's happening?
(05:04):
How are they making sense of the world right using humor?
So I did a lot of study on Ray in particular,
and then I had a focus group that I called
my den right, the den Dialogues. So I got my
own black women group together friendship circle where we were
able to actually watch the television show and then code
(05:25):
what that looks like. So are we laughing at the
same things. If I'm gonna jump out and say that
black women's humor exists, are we doing it versus is
this what we just see on media or on television.
So there was a lot of work around that and
we got to laugh. So I got to do fun
research and research that was really authentic to me. One
(05:45):
of the key findings though, that I saw was the
ways that black women often used humor to talk through
some of the oppressions that they faced. So it could
be racism, it could be sexism, agism, but it was
the way that we told the stories to each other.
Where we inserted humor, We've retold the stories. We were
(06:06):
the characters right in all of these stories. That really
made me think about the ways that we use humor
in telling our stories. And that is so innate that
it just happens. Right, we're storytellers, and we just continue
to tell these stories and use humor at every part
of the way, even when we thought we should be crying.
There was a moment where we are literally laughing and
(06:29):
crying at some pretty serious things. But the ways that
we were able to handle that was through the humor.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I love that, doctor Horne, and I love how much
black women's work often like builds on one another. So
I released my first book, Sisterhood Heals last year and
talked about some of the themes that happen in women's
therapy groups, and humor was one of them, right, And
so I love that you also found that indio work.
And I wonder if you could talk about like that
(06:57):
line between how Black women use humor and sometimes what
people would maybe say inappropriate times, right like we are
often laughing telling a very traumatic story. Can you talk
a little bit about that and what you found from
your work?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Absolutely, And what I really love is that seems to
be a thread and a lot of the work there
and all the disciplines. So I knew we were onto
something right, because it is important there's this moment where
to speak what you were talking about this idea called
chorl speech, where even in the story, even if it
didn't happen to us, we could finish the story. Right.
(07:32):
So if there's a moment where there's a word that
we know was coming and we all say it together
and we bust out laughing that way, right, and we're
sort of now taking on each other's stories and we're
sharing in that collective right, that consciousness there. But there
are some moments where we do tend to laugh when
we should not, right, But I think even that is
(07:53):
a simple way to sort of cope or relieve tension.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So one of those really big ways that black women
in particular and other people of color relieve tension is
through laughter. So we get the nervous laughter where it's like,
I'm telling you a really rough story, but my face
says that it's not, and we sort of are easing
our way out of that. And that's sort of a
tool for us, right where for the person hearing it,
(08:17):
they're laughing because now they're releasing that tension from that
dangerous situation. So to go back to the story about
me born laughing, probably was more so that there was
too much anesthesia, and I came out with too much anesthesia.
So then the story that we tell to make it
more palatable is that's our airka and she was born laughing,
(08:39):
not you were over medicated, ma'am so. And there's a
reason for that. So I think there is that shift
that we see with humor in those spaces where it
is a very fine line between the things that we
take serious and the things that we make light of
because we understand the seriousness of a situation, right.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So you mentioned already that you chose Insecure as the
foundation of your work for this research. I'm wondering what
inspired that choice in particular, and if there were other
media that you were also examining as a part of
this work.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I got a lot
of pushback for choosing to study a piece of media,
so I make a larger claim. So I consider myself
an older millennium. Okay, I've seen some things, and I've
been on the creation of things that have been taken
and made better, like some of the Internet pieces, right,
And I really looked at Insecure and Usury in particular
(09:35):
because there is a pivot where we see in media
this awkward black girl, and of course that's what she
was known for first, but we've seen awkward black girls
through time and media, but they tend to disappear. So
I think about Freddie Brooks right from a different world.
Even Carleton on Fresh Prince of be Layer could be
considered awkward according to everybody else, but those characters didn't
(09:59):
last long. But what I appreciated about Isa Ray and
Insecure was that for this group, they represent it sort
of just the everyday average Black girl, and it's somebody
who is awkward, somebody who is supposed to have it
together but isn't it very much in that millennial space
where you're overachieving, but you're underachieving at the same time
(10:23):
because of that opportunity and success that you're supposed to
have versus the realities of the situation where you just
don't have it figured out. So I chose Insecure one.
It's a friendship group, and I think to see black
women's humor in particular, to see how it manifests, you
have to see it, and it's collective, so there is
sort of this black female consciousness that even if you
(10:46):
aren't funny, there are funny moments within your group that
you are easily able to recognize. So she was a
really good part I thought about it, and I also
compared girlfriends right, so looking at Jones character, looking at
Tony's characters, and then other sort of ensemble casts living
single I would be remiss if I didn't mention them.
But I think living Single was probably that one group
(11:09):
that we can all identify with, regardless of generation, regardless
of age, that we know that group and we know
that friendship. So friendship and humor were really connected for me.
That erhard.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I'm wondering if you can see more about the pushback
you got from using media, like why do you think
there was pushback around that?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It was really interesting. I got a lot of pushback
about why not stand up comedy and why sitcoms? I
have to get over the hurdle of tell me a
joke syndrome. So once people hear you doing research on humor,
then like, okay, tell me a joke. I don't know jokes.
I'm not funny that way. I'm not stand up funny,
but I'm conversationally witty, is what I like to say.
(11:49):
So I think a lot of times there was pushback
because people really wanted punchline joke, punchline joke, where like
Isaray and like those other ensemble casts, it is very
much situational humor. When I'm looking at poking fun and
looking at the everyday life of people, and that's where
we really get authentic humor from, especially with black women.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
As you were talking, I was wondering, of course everything
is like thinly veiled racism. It feels like right, but
that even feels like an artifact of not seeing black
women as funny. Beyond being stand up. There is no
humor in the everyday ness of black girls.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Absolutely, and I even see sort of the everyday nests
even in little girls. So one of the things that
I like to look at. And I always have a
very complicated relationship with the term sas. So I say
sadly even in my dissertation, and it's the title because
that seems more legible to people when we think about
(12:47):
girls who are experimenting and testing boundaries of what's funny
and what isn't. So we have the term woman issue
you acting to grow, So that idea of sas sort
of pushes that boundary. But it is it's a ligible
form of black woman's humor that we start to see
even in childhood. I have a niece right now who
(13:07):
was leaving me voicemails and messages telling me to wake
up because I didn't it was too early in the morning,
and she's like, why are you still sleeping? And it's
sort of this sass here and she's like, now you
know better. I don't know better. I would like to
be sleep. So there's that sas and that humor even
at that level that we see even in our Black Girls.
(13:27):
M M.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
More from our conversation after the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I have not stopped listening to not Like Us the
Kendrick Lamarts. As someone who really does love hip hop,
I have kind of been checked out of this beef,
like I know what goes on because of social media.
But then I would see the videos or like the
memes from Not Like Us and I was like, okay,
I need to listen, and now I will listen to that.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Song on a loop.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I'm not tired of it, but I'm over indexing on it.
I need to space it out. What's so crazy is
I was about to say the same thing. Euphoria and
not Like Us are both like on my replay, especially Euphoria.
I almost know all the lyrics Euphoria and that's like
a six minute song. Yeah, I think I know all
the lyrics to not Like Us?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, So I definitely am not all the way caught
up on like how we got to this place. I
have been also enjoying Not Like Us though, but I
also think I just like DJ Mustard's beats, and so
I think most songs that he produces I typically am
going to enjoy. But Not Like Us definitely is the
favorite song of this whole beef.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
That we have going on.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
So another big part of your work is discovering how
humor recodes itself over time. Can you explain that concept
to us?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah? So one of the things, again, as I said,
I have to get over the hurdle of tell me
a joke syndrome. But the other hurdle was actually from
one of my participants, which is a really great friend
of mine, where she was like, but black women's humor
is sacred, and I don't want people in my business,
which is true. I was taken aback at first, but
(15:15):
I'm like, it's a really fair thing to say. There
is something to say when we label a thing. So
once we label it, then other people can take it
and shape it how they want to or misshape it,
and it's misunderstood in these ways. So I had to
sit back and think about the ways that I too
thought that black women's humor was a sacred space, but
(15:37):
also realized that humor in general has the ability to
recode itself. So if we're thinking about black humor in particular,
we're still thinking about the ways that people played the
dozens in Africa, right, or the your Mama jokes that
people will have. Now, black humor has gone through the
Middle Passage, it has gone through slavery, it has gone
(16:00):
through all of these pivotal moments in history, and it's
able to recode because we can recode language. So we
look at the things that we find funny now we
didn't find sixty years ago, we didn't find funny seventy
years ago. Controversial as it is for many, Dave Chappelle
is one where sometimes people argue that he didn't grow
(16:22):
with his audience. So we do find that it's recoding
in the ways that we use language, but also in
the ways that people are now sort of relearning what
it means to be human and how they're using language
and humor to do those pieces. So just because we
did it on the surface, and maybe it has been
taken or co opted, we also get to be the
(16:43):
gatekeepers for lack of better words in how we use that.
I think about the dictionary, right, So again, when bling
became part of the dictionary, we knew we weren't using
it anymore. Right. So, it's the very same thing with
black humor. Once you start to label it and once
you start to put it into the mainstream as that
public facing humor, than it recodes and sort of is
(17:06):
like we've moved on. You just got there a little later.
So we can pick about itself in some different ways.
And I think black women are able to use that
as a tool in some positive ways. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
I appreciate you sharing that, and I appreciate the friend
pushing back, right because I think I felt some of
that even in writing about sisterhood, that it feels like
it is very sacred, and like, do I want to
put this all out there for people to read who
may not be Black women? And I feel like I'm
seeing some of that same conversation. I don't know if
you know that there's a black Twitter series that's happening
(17:38):
on Hulu later this month, and there's been some of
this conversation of well, why are we sharing this? Are
we not doing enough with gatekeeping, and I also feel
like documenting our stories and our experiences also legitimizes it.
Right to have it in an academic text leads some
credibility to it. So I wonder if you have more
(17:58):
thoughts to share about what's the line between gatekeeping and
sharing and legitimizing some of black people's experiences.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, I've been thinking about this one a lot. I'm
actually in the middle of creating a digital humanities course
around African American humor in particular and what happens when
we make African American humor or Black humor legible to
all people. But I think one of the things that
I think about is the ways that at this level,
(18:27):
black culture and Black humor has become popular culture in
the ways that we're seeing colloquialisms not turn into coquialisms anymore,
or we're seeing just with the advent of increased social media,
that popular culture is popular culture regardless of the originating culture, right.
(18:48):
And I think for me, in studying humor and academic spaces,
I agree with you. I think there is a little
bit of cataloging these experiences or these storytelling moments, but
also in the ways that we can still do so authentically,
where other people are writing about black women or sisterhood
or sister circles that don't look like us, and they
(19:11):
get all the accolades for writing about us when we
can't write about us. So for me, I think there's
a different level of responsibility that's connected to this. So
when my friend have the pushback, I took it pretty seriously,
because again, you want to make sure the space is
safe for the people that you're working with, but also
(19:32):
there are more implications once more eyes are set on
something like humor. So there is this moment where I
do wish we would gate keep a little bit, but
I do see the importance of having responsible people tell
authentic stories. And I think I'm always on the side
of being responsible and doing especially research on black people
(19:55):
in the academy, because there are lots of people doing
research on black people who are not the site Black
women movement. We have to still push those narratives because
there's so much nuance in those as well. So I
think the nuance is important, but I also think we
need to still have some protections and that authenticity of
telling somebody's story, so we're still needed in those spaces
(20:19):
even when it doesn't always feel good in the space,
right right.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. So you
shared a little earlier how even in your findings, you
found that black women use humor to navigate oppressive systems
and oppressive situations. Can you say a little bit more
about how historically black women have used humor in that way.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Absolutely. So. One of the things that I love is
that to find black women's humor, you just have to
live a little You got to walk outside a little bit.
But you also have to pay attention to the people
we're not paying attention to, right And for black women,
for a long time, they weren't being paid attention to,
so they had free reign on how to express their emotions,
(21:02):
even when it wasn't always considered the best way to
express those emotions. So I go back and think about
people like sir journal Truth right, who is writing this
speech about ain't our women and fighting for rights for
black men to vote. But she's also having this moment
where the humor for her is steeped in irony, where
it's like, well, I'm a woman too, but y'all want
(21:24):
me to tell this land and do these things. But
y'all said, I was a woman, and y'all was like,
and it's this moment where we have those sort of
pieces come out here. There are moments in the sixties
right where we have people like Mom's Maybley, who then
is at the time a young woman portraying an older
black woman. And if we know anything about older black women,
(21:44):
we give them all the difference. They can say whatever
they want to, good or bad, and they're able to
tell the truth.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So she's telling the truth to white audiences playing an
older woman who knows that she's going to be respected
as that performance of older women, and we see her
then dismantle this male dominated comedy. So we see her
sort of break through these walls and these barriers, and
she becomes one of the first black women to perform
at the White House, if not the very first in
(22:15):
comedy to do so, as she uses humor to break
those things down. But my favorite example is one from
the movie The Help. Now I've got a love hate
relationship with The Help, the movie and the book. But
in The Help, there is a scene where Yola Davis
and Octavia Spencer are in a kitchen and they're making
(22:40):
fun of the people they're working for about the toilet
and toilet paper, and I think I Tavia Spencer was like, well,
I'll just take my own toilet paper. They're not gonna know,
and they're laughing at this situation, but they're using humor
to make fun of the larger oppression of Everybody has functions, function, function,
(23:01):
So they're having this moment here where even if they're
supposed to be seen as less than in these moments
of servitude, they're using their humor to express the ways
that they are superior to all of this because they
know that this type of oppression doesn't make sense. And
I think those are the moments that we see a
(23:21):
lot of Black women shine in that everyday realm.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, So I wonder if you could talk a little
bit more about what makes black women funny in a
way that is unique to us.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I always think about black humor in the ways that
for people, black humor and black women's humor specifically is
the most replicated but gets the least credit. So we
think about the ways that our comedians always go in
playing a woman, right, and that's a lot of big
research and a lot of things with that. So you
(23:51):
have somebody like Martin or you have other people who
are representing black women, because people can replicate that. So
I think what makes it you need for us is
the way that it's nuanced. It is very much so
the place where you can say things. But but I
(24:12):
guess I would call it shape today. I think it's
an overused term, but there is a way that you
can signify without So one of the key identifiers for
me is this term signifying where your face may say
one thing, but you can't trust the words. So if
I tell my students, you got a F minus today
and I'm smiling, and they're like, which one do I believe?
(24:35):
So if I'm smiling, it usually means you should get
out of my face, but you didn't get an F minus.
But it's sort of that moment where there was a
shift and there is a double or triple play with
black women that I think is a really key indicator.
But even to understand that and the way it recodes
is you have to know the in group humor first,
(24:57):
and it is very much in group, and you have
to know sort of the rules at play. So when
people don't understand the rules or the inner working completely,
we get a lot of people falter with that. So
I think of Andy Cohen and Bravo when I look
at these reunions, and Andy Cohen is one who can
sort of figure out the end group, but always has
(25:20):
a misstep when he doesn't realize the situation is serious
around him. He just thinks it's fun shade or vice versa.
So you still have to know what the end group
is talking about and how that works among black women.
And they may not tell you. They may have given
him limited access, but enough to know that he should
(25:40):
probably be quiet and let us talk. Yeah, yeah, I
think this is it's a big one for black women. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Like, as I'm listening to you talk, I mean, there
was never any opportunity where somebody in my family sat
me down and said, like, this is how black women
joke with one another. And even as you shared about
your niece, how like, just very early on, you pick
up some that can you talk a little bit about
like how this is passed on generation? Like how is
black women's humor transmitted?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I think in the ways that much of your
research right was sisterhood. It isn't the ways we pass
down stories or the ways that we observe the women
around us tell their stories right. So for me it
was my mom and my aunts and my grandmother's and
they would just say like random things that didn't make
sense at the time. So when I moved out of
the house, my mother said to me, don't let life happen.
(26:30):
I was like, what is she talking about? But for her,
don't let life happen. Man, don't get pregnant and come
back here two days late, like you know, things like that.
So there are small quips or things that people will say,
and younger generations they pick up on those. So it's
very much part of this storytelling or this oral tradition
that we see coming from African cultures and coming and
(26:53):
moving and growing with us as black women. So we
look at the ways we tell our stories or the
games that we play, so even down to the hand
clapping games and things that we don't see as much,
but there is still a lot of humor and just
in those that we get to pass down to other
generations and future generations. So I teach college students right now,
(27:15):
and they're always telling me the things that are cool
or not right, because in my mind, I'm cooler than
what I am, and my students will remind me very quickly.
They're like, it's giving a millennial And I said, I
can't know that was a bad thing, but there is
a moment like there's a thing where they'll put you
in your place. Right. Humor has that corrective function. So
(27:38):
as we're passing down these stories, and it's a really
great tool to you to sort of start to learn
in a low stakes environment what advocacy looks like. So
if you can joke with somebody, you can figure out
your boundaries in just then you're more apt to figure
out what your boundaries are out of just because you
know when not to go too far or when things
(27:58):
have gone too far.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
From our conversation after the break, So, doctor Horn, you
just mentioned and now I'm remembering, it does not feel
like little girls and like children are playing these hand
games anymore. Because even I'm thinking about my own kids,
(28:20):
like they're playing Nintendo Switch right, like they're not doing
these things. And so I wonder if any in any
of your work you found that there is a breakdown
in some of these things being passed on, like humor,
because kids are not doing like those kinds of things anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, as I'm working through some of the ideas, it
does seem to be that again in that recoding, it
just means we learn new language, right, or we figure
out where we're gonna to reach people. So what I
see now our children, if they're not watching people play
games on YouTube, because they do that a lot, they
watch people unbox and do those things, but they are
(28:58):
still looking at us, right, So I laugh at one
of the challenges that I shouldn't laugh at, where you
leave the children alone and they curse, right, Like I
should laugh at that, like I know better, But at
a certain point there's a moment where you're like, oh,
they're learning behaviors, right. And I think humor can be
something that we don't necessarily teach with in humor, but
(29:20):
I think there are learned responses to how we interact
with each other in the world. So I think with
things like social media or YouTube, or even the television
shows that people watch. I think about Blue Eye or
Peppa Pig, Right, there's humor there. Childhood humor is clumsy, right,
and it's because they're trying to figure out the world.
So you know when Peppa Pig is mad at this
(29:43):
land for learning how to whistle, and she doesn't and
hangs up on her. We laugh and kids laugh at
that because they were like, she was mean, not it
was funny, but she just she did something that I
didn't like, so she hung up. So I think there
are moments where we get those pieces of play, but
it isn't as physical as I think it used to be.
But I think they're very much still playing with testing boundaries.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
M M for sure. For sure. So how have you
seen black women use humor to form and build community?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
So humor and friendship is the gift in the curse, right.
So I go back to Insecure a little where I
believe it's season maybe three, where they have this friendship
breakdown and they're all going in different directions. I think
they're in Malibu and they're turning against each other, and
they're using the humor that we loved in their friendship
(30:36):
circle to turn against the friendship circle, right, And I
think some of the ways we see just black women
navigate these spaces is humor is the default because it's uncomfortable.
So when you hurt my feelings, sometimes it's more comfortable
to say, well, I'm gonna hurt your feelings in shade, right,
Because that's what's represented in media than to have those
(30:59):
authentic conversations in those spaces to talk. But we definitely
see it in friendship groups. We know the friendship circles,
Like I'm the peacemaker in the friendship group. Sometimes I
have a friend who calls me Switzerland, so I'm super
neutral and all the things. So there is that place
where you laugh and you make jokes with each other,
but it's also a trusting part. So I trust you
(31:22):
enough that you won't hurt my feelings in just or
you won't embarrass me in just Nobody needs to be
the butt of the joke, but there is a safe
way to sort of have these humorous moments. We see
the community building with the side jokes right that people have.
You're just trying to foster that connectedness is what really
people look for most, and those shared experiences. So even
(31:46):
if you are not part of the end group all
the time, you can still experience a little bit of
that humor. It makes me think of when we see
someone in the grocery store and there's like a kid
screaming or whatever they're doing, and everybody and the grocery store
is tired, and they just give the look like I know,
like that in itself is that humor moment and you
(32:06):
just walk away, shake your head and laugh, but you
know that something is going on. So there is that
way that black women definitely are able to connect with
each other at all facets of life.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Mm hmm. Can you say more of me? Because a
part of your dissertation title was also about the knowing
glances that you just talked about, can you say more
about those nonverbal ways that humor is shared.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So I definitely wear all of my things on my face,
so I'm trying very hard, you know, to look like this.
I look like this all the time. This is my
mad face too. But there's very much for black humor
in general. So this is not gender specific at all,
but that for humor and for black humor in particular,
it is very much nonverbal as much as it is verbal.
(32:49):
And a lot of times those knowing glances are things like, yeah,
you see what happened over there. And you can just
be in a room and one the community or the
n group is saying this sounds ridiculous, and all you
have to do is just look right and you know
that the situation is ridiculous. A lot of times in
research when talking about sort of workplace microaggressions or being
(33:10):
the only black person in sort of white centered spaces,
and you find that one and you're like, oh, we're here,
and you look at each other and you're like, yeah,
I'm over here too, and you just know that is
that sense of community as well. So knowing that something
is going on or something is happening here and the
humor is that unspoken truth is what that knowing glances.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
So when I think about black humar, I also think
it is pretty physical, right, So there's a lot of
flapping each other and like getting up and running around
and those kinds of things. Can you talk about any
of that that you have found in your work? What
adds that physical piece to it?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I wish I had an academic answer, but the Erica answer,
not the Doctor Horror answer, is very much. We just
we're a touchy group, okay. And there is a there
is an old piece I think from Dormtainment, a comedy,
and they did a satire on National Geographic about black laughter,
and the joke was that some people build community when
(34:08):
they laugh, and then some people create space when they laugh.
So it's a group of guys and they all laugh
and then running different directions cracking up. And I think
for a lot of it, it is just the ways
that because we come from oral traditions, that we do
things physically right. So to remember the moment, you need
to tell the story in a way that people will
(34:30):
come back to or they'll remember and you can remember
when you ran out of there laughing, or you sort
of come closer together, like let me slap her on
the shoulder or the back and be like that was
funny and we shared a moment together. So is that
community piece? Now I'm gonna throw your head back laughter,
and I'm trying to work on that. I'm gonna show
a whole neck when I laugh, and my mouth will
(34:50):
be very very wide. I'm not a runner when I laugh,
but I definitely know groups of students who do when
they're running different directions. I think when you see joy
in that way, you can't help but think that the
laughter is also contagious, and it's just another way to
build that community in that group.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Right right, So, doctor Hart, I wonder if you could
share some strategies. You know, it definitely feels like there's
always so much going on in the world. You can't
turn on the news without some sad and tragic story.
What would you say about how to like infuse humor
into our lives even when things feel really difficult.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
One, you have to give your time space to feel
the feelings, right, And although we talk about humor as
that coping mechanism, that's the oldest way that we talk
through humor. It is just a tool for the moment, right,
It is still a temporary sort of fix. And sometimes
you have to allow yourself to feel the feelings and
then you get to the humor part, so you got
(35:47):
to sit with it. But a lot of times for me, again,
I know people with like seasonal depression in those pieces
where it may be harder to find the humor in situations.
But I do think there are moments where it sounds cliche, right,
but you sort of have to build that optimism or
create that optimism in your circles or in whatever your
(36:08):
groups are. So there's a ways to infuse humor to
sort of get us through those really hard times. I'm
trying to work through a piece around humor and grief
right now and the ways that they are very connected
to each other. But the ways that when we look
at the increased visibility of police brutalion, those pieces, we
(36:30):
were still able to laugh despite the situation, but what
we were laughing at was very different. So in some
ways we were laughing to keep from crying, right, to
do the cliche, but in other ways we were laughing
to sort of point out that oppression or that ridiculousness there.
I think of Nisi Nash had the satire around a
(36:51):
commercial called the one eight hundred White Fear, and it's
this whole thing like you call your local black person
to see if are you calling the police inappropriate way? Right?
Are you doing these things? So I think at the
larger level, we do just have to sort of create
those moments of optimism, even if they may be temporary.
But it is definitely still a coping strategy and a
(37:15):
coping mechanism. But it is a tool, right, and it
shouldn't be the only thing that we do, but I
do think it is a tool that can help you through.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
So what kinds of things make you laugh? What are
you turning to when you want a good laugh, whether
it's media or something else.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I'm a TV watcher, but I'm not grading papers. I
watch television. I watch a lot of reality shows. Actually
music for me, I laugh at a lot of music.
So of course right now we're listening to Drake and
Kendrick Lamar, and more so than the music of it,
we're reading Twitter like we're reading those parts, and that's
the humor. The humor is in our responses to what's
(37:54):
happening with that. So that's been keeping me on my
toes these days. I feel like there's an update every
five minute. But a lot of those things helped me
out definitely. It's still staying with the friend groups. So
we just finished up a semester and now graduation with Saturday,
so trying to find times to celebrate but also decompressed.
So get with friends, catch up those things. I laugh
(38:16):
at everything, which is partly why my humor is so
authentic to me is that I think this is something
that's important and I love the ways that for black
women were not always considered joyful. So even in the
early parts of my research, I just did a quick
Google search on black women and it was just and
(38:39):
it was an image search, and it was just a
lot of frowns, a lot of powerhouse poses, but there
was nothing that really just said joy, right or laughter,
and we're so much more than yes, a powerhouse post
because we can be powerful right, and there's nothing wrong
with those pieces, but it was the way that you
need some joy and we need just and we need
to figure out to dismantle some of the Black Superwoman
(39:03):
kind of tropes. Is that you need a moment where
you can let your hair down, you can take your
cape off and just be. And I think this is
a lot of the reasons why humor is so important
for me is you just need a space to land
and just to laugh and lay or sit in those moments.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Thank you so much for that. So where can we
stay connected with you, Doctor Horn? What is your website
as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Well, Doctor Joy, I'm a little new to the games,
but I'm an Instagram user, so you can find me
at books and Giggles, Books, Underscore and Giggles there. So
that's sort of my semi professional parts for students and
for me to see where I'm going, what I'm researching. Again,
(39:49):
I'm silly. What means I'm reposting? Usually I repost the
memes that my students create for me, So at the
end of their classes, they get to create memes about
the experience in a humor class that I taught, and
half of them are about me, unfortunately, and fortunately I
raised them right, So you know, I'm always reposting those.
But yes, I'm definitely getting out there. I just published
(40:13):
a chapter on Insecure and Atlanta so called black Awkwardness,
so that is coming out there. Those are interested in
reading those pieces. So I'm very much in the academic
space right now, trying to bridge the gap between the
academic and the person.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Well, this is your foray, Dr Horne, so you would
be doing much more of it. I feel like, thank
you for that.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Well, thank you so much for spending some time with
us today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Absolutely. I'm so glad doctor Horne was able to share
her exercise with us today. To learn more about her
and her work, be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com es three fifty nine,
and don't forget to text this episode to two of
your girls right now. If you're looking for a therapists
(41:07):
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be a community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
(41:28):
produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty nine of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi. I'm doctor Erica Britney Horn, and I'm on the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
When I think about black women's humor, I think about
the subtle glances we share when something ridiculous happens in public,
The physicality of slapping each other on the back after
a really good joke. Are the ways in which you
can always tell just how a girlfriend is feeling by
looking at the expression on her face. Even when meeting
a Black woman who is a complete stranger, we still
(01:40):
find ways to connect over our shared sins of humor
to talk a little more about the subtle nuances of
black women's humor and why humor is so sacred to us.
I'm joined today by professor, researcher, and Black humor scholar,
doctor Erica Britney Horn. In twenty twenty, doctor Horn published
her dissertation Sassy Subversions, Knowing Glances and Black Women's Laughter,
(02:04):
Moving towards a Black Woman's Pedagogy of Humor, earning her
PhD in Educational Studies from the University of North Carolina.
During our conversation, we chat about what makes black women
so funny, how Black women have historically used humor to
combat the psychological impacts of oppression, and the ways in
which black women's humor is passed down generationally. If something
(02:26):
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session
or join us over in the sister circles To talk
more about the episode. You can join us at community
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you,
(02:47):
so much for joining us today, doctor Horn.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Of course, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I want
to get the title correct. The title of your twenty
twenty dissertation was Sassy Subversion, Knowing Glances and Black Women's Laughter,
moving towards a Black Woman's Pedagogy of Humor.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So one, I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Very curious about that title, and I also want to
hear what motivated you to use this at your study.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, we love a good title in academics, and we
love a colon on top of the colon. But for me,
one of the big pieces for humor studies was the
ways that I always found that black women in particular
were funny, even when they didn't think they were being funny.
So for me in my own personal life, I always
(03:35):
tell the story about how I was born laughing, and
people are like, why would you say something that ridiculous,
But it's true, So instead of coming out crying, I
was born with this little chuckle. Apparently my mom said,
it's an embarrassing story, but it is one that we
tell all the time. So from there I just really
(03:57):
realized and started to admire the black women my household
and we saw that black women were always laughing at
something or about something, and it's just something to be
said about the ways that when we get together there
is laughter or humor somewhere. So I really wanted to
capture the ways that black women in particular are always
(04:21):
making light of situations in good and bad ways, but
in ways that don't happen on the comedic stage. So
I wasn't concerned with stand up right, but more so
just the everyday Black women in her humor.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Ooh, I love that, the everyday humor and it is
very deep for sure. So can you share some of
the key findings and the major themes.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
From your study? So one of the things I studied
most actually was es race insecure. So in a study
like this, I really had to figure out where to study.
And I noticed I wanted to look at a lot
of the media that portrayed black women in their sisters.
So when we get these friend groups together, what's happening?
(05:04):
How are they making sense of the world right using humor?
So I did a lot of study on Ray in particular,
and then I had a focus group that I called
my den right, the den Dialogues. So I got my
own black women group together friendship circle where we were
able to actually watch the television show and then code
(05:25):
what that looks like. So are we laughing at the
same things. If I'm gonna jump out and say that
black women's humor exists, are we doing it versus is
this what we just see on media or on television.
So there was a lot of work around that and
we got to laugh. So I got to do fun
research and research that was really authentic to me. One
(05:45):
of the key findings though, that I saw was the
ways that black women often used humor to talk through
some of the oppressions that they faced. So it could
be racism, it could be sexism, agism, but it was
the way that we told the stories to each other.
Where we inserted humor, We've retold the stories. We were
(06:06):
the characters right in all of these stories. That really
made me think about the ways that we use humor
in telling our stories. And that is so innate that
it just happens. Right, we're storytellers, and we just continue
to tell these stories and use humor at every part
of the way, even when we thought we should be crying.
There was a moment where we are literally laughing and
(06:29):
crying at some pretty serious things. But the ways that
we were able to handle that was through the humor.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I love that, doctor Horne, and I love how much
black women's work often like builds on one another. So
I released my first book, Sisterhood Heals last year and
talked about some of the themes that happen in women's
therapy groups, and humor was one of them, right, And
so I love that you also found that indio work.
And I wonder if you could talk about like that
(06:57):
line between how Black women use humor and sometimes what
people would maybe say inappropriate times, right like we are
often laughing telling a very traumatic story. Can you talk
a little bit about that and what you found from
your work?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Absolutely, And what I really love is that seems to
be a thread and a lot of the work there
and all the disciplines. So I knew we were onto
something right, because it is important there's this moment where
to speak what you were talking about this idea called
chorl speech, where even in the story, even if it
didn't happen to us, we could finish the story. Right.
(07:32):
So if there's a moment where there's a word that
we know was coming and we all say it together
and we bust out laughing that way, right, and we're
sort of now taking on each other's stories and we're
sharing in that collective right, that consciousness there. But there
are some moments where we do tend to laugh when
we should not, right, But I think even that is
(07:53):
a simple way to sort of cope or relieve tension.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So one of those really big ways that black women
in particular and other people of color relieve tension is
through laughter. So we get the nervous laughter where it's like,
I'm telling you a really rough story, but my face
says that it's not, and we sort of are easing
our way out of that. And that's sort of a
tool for us, right where for the person hearing it,
(08:17):
they're laughing because now they're releasing that tension from that
dangerous situation. So to go back to the story about
me born laughing, probably was more so that there was
too much anesthesia, and I came out with too much anesthesia.
So then the story that we tell to make it
more palatable is that's our airka and she was born laughing,
(08:39):
not you were over medicated, ma'am so. And there's a
reason for that. So I think there is that shift
that we see with humor in those spaces where it
is a very fine line between the things that we
take serious and the things that we make light of
because we understand the seriousness of a situation, right.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So you mentioned already that you chose Insecure as the
foundation of your work for this research. I'm wondering what
inspired that choice in particular, and if there were other
media that you were also examining as a part of
this work.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I got a lot
of pushback for choosing to study a piece of media,
so I make a larger claim. So I consider myself
an older millennium. Okay, I've seen some things, and I've
been on the creation of things that have been taken
and made better, like some of the Internet pieces, right,
And I really looked at Insecure and Usury in particular
(09:35):
because there is a pivot where we see in media
this awkward black girl, and of course that's what she
was known for first, but we've seen awkward black girls
through time and media, but they tend to disappear. So
I think about Freddie Brooks right from a different world.
Even Carleton on Fresh Prince of be Layer could be
considered awkward according to everybody else, but those characters didn't
(09:59):
last long. But what I appreciated about Isa Ray and
Insecure was that for this group, they represent it sort
of just the everyday average Black girl, and it's somebody
who is awkward, somebody who is supposed to have it
together but isn't it very much in that millennial space
where you're overachieving, but you're underachieving at the same time
(10:23):
because of that opportunity and success that you're supposed to
have versus the realities of the situation where you just
don't have it figured out. So I chose Insecure one.
It's a friendship group, and I think to see black
women's humor in particular, to see how it manifests, you
have to see it, and it's collective, so there is
sort of this black female consciousness that even if you
(10:46):
aren't funny, there are funny moments within your group that
you are easily able to recognize. So she was a
really good part I thought about it, and I also
compared girlfriends right, so looking at Jones character, looking at
Tony's characters, and then other sort of ensemble casts living
single I would be remiss if I didn't mention them.
But I think living Single was probably that one group
(11:09):
that we can all identify with, regardless of generation, regardless
of age, that we know that group and we know
that friendship. So friendship and humor were really connected for me.
That erhard.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I'm wondering if you can see more about the pushback
you got from using media, like why do you think
there was pushback around that?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It was really interesting. I got a lot of pushback
about why not stand up comedy and why sitcoms? I
have to get over the hurdle of tell me a
joke syndrome. So once people hear you doing research on humor,
then like, okay, tell me a joke. I don't know jokes.
I'm not funny that way. I'm not stand up funny,
but I'm conversationally witty, is what I like to say.
(11:49):
So I think a lot of times there was pushback
because people really wanted punchline joke, punchline joke, where like
Isaray and like those other ensemble casts, it is very
much situational humor. When I'm looking at poking fun and
looking at the everyday life of people, and that's where
we really get authentic humor from, especially with black women.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
As you were talking, I was wondering, of course everything
is like thinly veiled racism. It feels like right, but
that even feels like an artifact of not seeing black
women as funny. Beyond being stand up. There is no
humor in the everyday ness of black girls.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Absolutely, and I even see sort of the everyday nests
even in little girls. So one of the things that
I like to look at. And I always have a
very complicated relationship with the term sas. So I say
sadly even in my dissertation, and it's the title because
that seems more legible to people when we think about
(12:47):
girls who are experimenting and testing boundaries of what's funny
and what isn't. So we have the term woman issue
you acting to grow, So that idea of sas sort
of pushes that boundary. But it is it's a ligible
form of black woman's humor that we start to see
even in childhood. I have a niece right now who
(13:07):
was leaving me voicemails and messages telling me to wake
up because I didn't it was too early in the morning,
and she's like, why are you still sleeping? And it's
sort of this sass here and she's like, now you
know better. I don't know better. I would like to
be sleep. So there's that sas and that humor even
at that level that we see even in our Black Girls.
(13:27):
M M.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
More from our conversation after the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I have not stopped listening to not Like Us the
Kendrick Lamarts. As someone who really does love hip hop,
I have kind of been checked out of this beef,
like I know what goes on because of social media.
But then I would see the videos or like the
memes from Not Like Us and I was like, okay,
I need to listen, and now I will listen to that.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Song on a loop.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I'm not tired of it, but I'm over indexing on it.
I need to space it out. What's so crazy is
I was about to say the same thing. Euphoria and
not Like Us are both like on my replay, especially Euphoria.
I almost know all the lyrics Euphoria and that's like
a six minute song. Yeah, I think I know all
the lyrics to not Like Us?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, So I definitely am not all the way caught
up on like how we got to this place. I
have been also enjoying Not Like Us though, but I
also think I just like DJ Mustard's beats, and so
I think most songs that he produces I typically am
going to enjoy. But Not Like Us definitely is the
favorite song of this whole beef.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
That we have going on.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
So another big part of your work is discovering how
humor recodes itself over time. Can you explain that concept
to us?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah? So one of the things, again, as I said,
I have to get over the hurdle of tell me
a joke syndrome. But the other hurdle was actually from
one of my participants, which is a really great friend
of mine, where she was like, but black women's humor
is sacred, and I don't want people in my business,
which is true. I was taken aback at first, but
(15:15):
I'm like, it's a really fair thing to say. There
is something to say when we label a thing. So
once we label it, then other people can take it
and shape it how they want to or misshape it,
and it's misunderstood in these ways. So I had to
sit back and think about the ways that I too
thought that black women's humor was a sacred space, but
(15:37):
also realized that humor in general has the ability to
recode itself. So if we're thinking about black humor in particular,
we're still thinking about the ways that people played the
dozens in Africa, right, or the your Mama jokes that
people will have. Now, black humor has gone through the
Middle Passage, it has gone through slavery, it has gone
(16:00):
through all of these pivotal moments in history, and it's
able to recode because we can recode language. So we
look at the things that we find funny now we
didn't find sixty years ago, we didn't find funny seventy
years ago. Controversial as it is for many, Dave Chappelle
is one where sometimes people argue that he didn't grow
(16:22):
with his audience. So we do find that it's recoding
in the ways that we use language, but also in
the ways that people are now sort of relearning what
it means to be human and how they're using language
and humor to do those pieces. So just because we
did it on the surface, and maybe it has been
taken or co opted, we also get to be the
(16:43):
gatekeepers for lack of better words in how we use that.
I think about the dictionary, right, So again, when bling
became part of the dictionary, we knew we weren't using
it anymore. Right. So, it's the very same thing with
black humor. Once you start to label it and once
you start to put it into the mainstream as that
public facing humor, than it recodes and sort of is
(17:06):
like we've moved on. You just got there a little later.
So we can pick about itself in some different ways.
And I think black women are able to use that
as a tool in some positive ways. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
I appreciate you sharing that, and I appreciate the friend
pushing back, right because I think I felt some of
that even in writing about sisterhood, that it feels like
it is very sacred, and like, do I want to
put this all out there for people to read who
may not be Black women? And I feel like I'm
seeing some of that same conversation. I don't know if
you know that there's a black Twitter series that's happening
(17:38):
on Hulu later this month, and there's been some of
this conversation of well, why are we sharing this? Are
we not doing enough with gatekeeping, and I also feel
like documenting our stories and our experiences also legitimizes it.
Right to have it in an academic text leads some
credibility to it. So I wonder if you have more
(17:58):
thoughts to share about what's the line between gatekeeping and
sharing and legitimizing some of black people's experiences.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, I've been thinking about this one a lot. I'm
actually in the middle of creating a digital humanities course
around African American humor in particular and what happens when
we make African American humor or Black humor legible to
all people. But I think one of the things that
I think about is the ways that at this level,
(18:27):
black culture and Black humor has become popular culture in
the ways that we're seeing colloquialisms not turn into coquialisms anymore,
or we're seeing just with the advent of increased social media,
that popular culture is popular culture regardless of the originating culture, right.
(18:48):
And I think for me, in studying humor and academic spaces,
I agree with you. I think there is a little
bit of cataloging these experiences or these storytelling moments, but
also in the ways that we can still do so authentically,
where other people are writing about black women or sisterhood
or sister circles that don't look like us, and they
(19:11):
get all the accolades for writing about us when we
can't write about us. So for me, I think there's
a different level of responsibility that's connected to this. So
when my friend have the pushback, I took it pretty seriously,
because again, you want to make sure the space is
safe for the people that you're working with, but also
(19:32):
there are more implications once more eyes are set on
something like humor. So there is this moment where I
do wish we would gate keep a little bit, but
I do see the importance of having responsible people tell
authentic stories. And I think I'm always on the side
of being responsible and doing especially research on black people
(19:55):
in the academy, because there are lots of people doing
research on black people who are not the site Black
women movement. We have to still push those narratives because
there's so much nuance in those as well. So I
think the nuance is important, but I also think we
need to still have some protections and that authenticity of
telling somebody's story, so we're still needed in those spaces
(20:19):
even when it doesn't always feel good in the space,
right right.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. So you
shared a little earlier how even in your findings, you
found that black women use humor to navigate oppressive systems
and oppressive situations. Can you say a little bit more
about how historically black women have used humor in that way.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Absolutely. So. One of the things that I love is
that to find black women's humor, you just have to
live a little You got to walk outside a little bit.
But you also have to pay attention to the people
we're not paying attention to, right And for black women,
for a long time, they weren't being paid attention to,
so they had free reign on how to express their emotions,
(21:02):
even when it wasn't always considered the best way to
express those emotions. So I go back and think about
people like sir journal Truth right, who is writing this
speech about ain't our women and fighting for rights for
black men to vote. But she's also having this moment
where the humor for her is steeped in irony, where
it's like, well, I'm a woman too, but y'all want
(21:24):
me to tell this land and do these things. But
y'all said, I was a woman, and y'all was like,
and it's this moment where we have those sort of
pieces come out here. There are moments in the sixties
right where we have people like Mom's Maybley, who then
is at the time a young woman portraying an older
black woman. And if we know anything about older black women,
(21:44):
we give them all the difference. They can say whatever
they want to, good or bad, and they're able to
tell the truth.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So she's telling the truth to white audiences playing an
older woman who knows that she's going to be respected
as that performance of older women, and we see her
then dismantle this male dominated comedy. So we see her
sort of break through these walls and these barriers, and
she becomes one of the first black women to perform
at the White House, if not the very first in
(22:15):
comedy to do so, as she uses humor to break
those things down. But my favorite example is one from
the movie The Help. Now I've got a love hate
relationship with The Help, the movie and the book. But
in The Help, there is a scene where Yola Davis
and Octavia Spencer are in a kitchen and they're making
(22:40):
fun of the people they're working for about the toilet
and toilet paper, and I think I Tavia Spencer was like, well,
I'll just take my own toilet paper. They're not gonna know,
and they're laughing at this situation, but they're using humor
to make fun of the larger oppression of Everybody has functions, function, function,
(23:01):
So they're having this moment here where even if they're
supposed to be seen as less than in these moments
of servitude, they're using their humor to express the ways
that they are superior to all of this because they
know that this type of oppression doesn't make sense. And
I think those are the moments that we see a
(23:21):
lot of Black women shine in that everyday realm.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, So I wonder if you could talk a little
bit more about what makes black women funny in a
way that is unique to us.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I always think about black humor in the ways that
for people, black humor and black women's humor specifically is
the most replicated but gets the least credit. So we
think about the ways that our comedians always go in
playing a woman, right, and that's a lot of big
research and a lot of things with that. So you
(23:51):
have somebody like Martin or you have other people who
are representing black women, because people can replicate that. So
I think what makes it you need for us is
the way that it's nuanced. It is very much so
the place where you can say things. But but I
(24:12):
guess I would call it shape today. I think it's
an overused term, but there is a way that you
can signify without So one of the key identifiers for
me is this term signifying where your face may say
one thing, but you can't trust the words. So if
I tell my students, you got a F minus today
and I'm smiling, and they're like, which one do I believe?
(24:35):
So if I'm smiling, it usually means you should get
out of my face, but you didn't get an F minus.
But it's sort of that moment where there was a
shift and there is a double or triple play with
black women that I think is a really key indicator.
But even to understand that and the way it recodes
is you have to know the in group humor first,
(24:57):
and it is very much in group, and you have
to know sort of the rules at play. So when
people don't understand the rules or the inner working completely,
we get a lot of people falter with that. So
I think of Andy Cohen and Bravo when I look
at these reunions, and Andy Cohen is one who can
sort of figure out the end group, but always has
(25:20):
a misstep when he doesn't realize the situation is serious
around him. He just thinks it's fun shade or vice versa.
So you still have to know what the end group
is talking about and how that works among black women.
And they may not tell you. They may have given
him limited access, but enough to know that he should
(25:40):
probably be quiet and let us talk. Yeah, yeah, I
think this is it's a big one for black women. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Like, as I'm listening to you talk, I mean, there
was never any opportunity where somebody in my family sat
me down and said, like, this is how black women
joke with one another. And even as you shared about
your niece, how like, just very early on, you pick
up some that can you talk a little bit about
like how this is passed on generation? Like how is
black women's humor transmitted?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I think in the ways that much of your
research right was sisterhood. It isn't the ways we pass
down stories or the ways that we observe the women
around us tell their stories right. So for me it
was my mom and my aunts and my grandmother's and
they would just say like random things that didn't make
sense at the time. So when I moved out of
the house, my mother said to me, don't let life happen.
(26:30):
I was like, what is she talking about? But for her,
don't let life happen. Man, don't get pregnant and come
back here two days late, like you know, things like that.
So there are small quips or things that people will say,
and younger generations they pick up on those. So it's
very much part of this storytelling or this oral tradition
that we see coming from African cultures and coming and
(26:53):
moving and growing with us as black women. So we
look at the ways we tell our stories or the
games that we play, so even down to the hand
clapping games and things that we don't see as much,
but there is still a lot of humor and just
in those that we get to pass down to other
generations and future generations. So I teach college students right now,
(27:15):
and they're always telling me the things that are cool
or not right, because in my mind, I'm cooler than
what I am, and my students will remind me very quickly.
They're like, it's giving a millennial And I said, I
can't know that was a bad thing, but there is
a moment like there's a thing where they'll put you
in your place. Right. Humor has that corrective function. So
(27:38):
as we're passing down these stories, and it's a really
great tool to you to sort of start to learn
in a low stakes environment what advocacy looks like. So
if you can joke with somebody, you can figure out
your boundaries in just then you're more apt to figure
out what your boundaries are out of just because you
know when not to go too far or when things
(27:58):
have gone too far.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
From our conversation after the break, So, doctor Horn, you
just mentioned and now I'm remembering, it does not feel
like little girls and like children are playing these hand
games anymore. Because even I'm thinking about my own kids,
(28:20):
like they're playing Nintendo Switch right, like they're not doing
these things. And so I wonder if any in any
of your work you found that there is a breakdown
in some of these things being passed on, like humor,
because kids are not doing like those kinds of things anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, as I'm working through some of the ideas, it
does seem to be that again in that recoding, it
just means we learn new language, right, or we figure
out where we're gonna to reach people. So what I
see now our children, if they're not watching people play
games on YouTube, because they do that a lot, they
watch people unbox and do those things, but they are
(28:58):
still looking at us, right, So I laugh at one
of the challenges that I shouldn't laugh at, where you
leave the children alone and they curse, right, Like I
should laugh at that, like I know better, But at
a certain point there's a moment where you're like, oh,
they're learning behaviors, right. And I think humor can be
something that we don't necessarily teach with in humor, but
(29:20):
I think there are learned responses to how we interact
with each other in the world. So I think with
things like social media or YouTube, or even the television
shows that people watch. I think about Blue Eye or
Peppa Pig, Right, there's humor there. Childhood humor is clumsy, right,
and it's because they're trying to figure out the world.
So you know when Peppa Pig is mad at this
(29:43):
land for learning how to whistle, and she doesn't and
hangs up on her. We laugh and kids laugh at
that because they were like, she was mean, not it
was funny, but she just she did something that I
didn't like, so she hung up. So I think there
are moments where we get those pieces of play, but
it isn't as physical as I think it used to be.
But I think they're very much still playing with testing boundaries.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
M M for sure. For sure. So how have you
seen black women use humor to form and build community?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
So humor and friendship is the gift in the curse, right.
So I go back to Insecure a little where I
believe it's season maybe three, where they have this friendship
breakdown and they're all going in different directions. I think
they're in Malibu and they're turning against each other, and
they're using the humor that we loved in their friendship
(30:36):
circle to turn against the friendship circle, right, And I
think some of the ways we see just black women
navigate these spaces is humor is the default because it's uncomfortable.
So when you hurt my feelings, sometimes it's more comfortable
to say, well, I'm gonna hurt your feelings in shade, right,
Because that's what's represented in media than to have those
(30:59):
authentic conversations in those spaces to talk. But we definitely
see it in friendship groups. We know the friendship circles,
Like I'm the peacemaker in the friendship group. Sometimes I
have a friend who calls me Switzerland, so I'm super
neutral and all the things. So there is that place
where you laugh and you make jokes with each other,
but it's also a trusting part. So I trust you
(31:22):
enough that you won't hurt my feelings in just or
you won't embarrass me in just Nobody needs to be
the butt of the joke, but there is a safe
way to sort of have these humorous moments. We see
the community building with the side jokes right that people have.
You're just trying to foster that connectedness is what really
people look for most, and those shared experiences. So even
(31:46):
if you are not part of the end group all
the time, you can still experience a little bit of
that humor. It makes me think of when we see
someone in the grocery store and there's like a kid
screaming or whatever they're doing, and everybody and the grocery store
is tired, and they just give the look like I know,
like that in itself is that humor moment and you
(32:06):
just walk away, shake your head and laugh, but you
know that something is going on. So there is that
way that black women definitely are able to connect with
each other at all facets of life.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Mm hmm. Can you say more of me? Because a
part of your dissertation title was also about the knowing
glances that you just talked about, can you say more
about those nonverbal ways that humor is shared.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So I definitely wear all of my things on my face,
so I'm trying very hard, you know, to look like this.
I look like this all the time. This is my
mad face too. But there's very much for black humor
in general. So this is not gender specific at all,
but that for humor and for black humor in particular,
it is very much nonverbal as much as it is verbal.
(32:49):
And a lot of times those knowing glances are things like, yeah,
you see what happened over there. And you can just
be in a room and one the community or the
n group is saying this sounds ridiculous, and all you
have to do is just look right and you know
that the situation is ridiculous. A lot of times in
research when talking about sort of workplace microaggressions or being
(33:10):
the only black person in sort of white centered spaces,
and you find that one and you're like, oh, we're here,
and you look at each other and you're like, yeah,
I'm over here too, and you just know that is
that sense of community as well. So knowing that something
is going on or something is happening here and the
humor is that unspoken truth is what that knowing glances.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
So when I think about black humar, I also think
it is pretty physical, right, So there's a lot of
flapping each other and like getting up and running around
and those kinds of things. Can you talk about any
of that that you have found in your work? What
adds that physical piece to it?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I wish I had an academic answer, but the Erica answer,
not the Doctor Horror answer, is very much. We just
we're a touchy group, okay. And there is a there
is an old piece I think from Dormtainment, a comedy,
and they did a satire on National Geographic about black laughter,
and the joke was that some people build community when
(34:08):
they laugh, and then some people create space when they laugh.
So it's a group of guys and they all laugh
and then running different directions cracking up. And I think
for a lot of it, it is just the ways
that because we come from oral traditions, that we do
things physically right. So to remember the moment, you need
to tell the story in a way that people will
(34:30):
come back to or they'll remember and you can remember
when you ran out of there laughing, or you sort
of come closer together, like let me slap her on
the shoulder or the back and be like that was
funny and we shared a moment together. So is that
community piece? Now I'm gonna throw your head back laughter,
and I'm trying to work on that. I'm gonna show
a whole neck when I laugh, and my mouth will
(34:50):
be very very wide. I'm not a runner when I laugh,
but I definitely know groups of students who do when
they're running different directions. I think when you see joy
in that way, you can't help but think that the
laughter is also contagious, and it's just another way to
build that community in that group.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Right right, So, doctor Hart, I wonder if you could
share some strategies. You know, it definitely feels like there's
always so much going on in the world. You can't
turn on the news without some sad and tragic story.
What would you say about how to like infuse humor
into our lives even when things feel really difficult.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
One, you have to give your time space to feel
the feelings, right, And although we talk about humor as
that coping mechanism, that's the oldest way that we talk
through humor. It is just a tool for the moment, right,
It is still a temporary sort of fix. And sometimes
you have to allow yourself to feel the feelings and
then you get to the humor part, so you got
(35:47):
to sit with it. But a lot of times for me, again,
I know people with like seasonal depression in those pieces
where it may be harder to find the humor in situations.
But I do think there are moments where it sounds cliche, right,
but you sort of have to build that optimism or
create that optimism in your circles or in whatever your
(36:08):
groups are. So there's a ways to infuse humor to
sort of get us through those really hard times. I'm
trying to work through a piece around humor and grief
right now and the ways that they are very connected
to each other. But the ways that when we look
at the increased visibility of police brutalion, those pieces, we
(36:30):
were still able to laugh despite the situation, but what
we were laughing at was very different. So in some
ways we were laughing to keep from crying, right, to
do the cliche, but in other ways we were laughing
to sort of point out that oppression or that ridiculousness there.
I think of Nisi Nash had the satire around a
(36:51):
commercial called the one eight hundred White Fear, and it's
this whole thing like you call your local black person
to see if are you calling the police inappropriate way? Right?
Are you doing these things? So I think at the
larger level, we do just have to sort of create
those moments of optimism, even if they may be temporary.
But it is definitely still a coping strategy and a
(37:15):
coping mechanism. But it is a tool, right, and it
shouldn't be the only thing that we do, but I
do think it is a tool that can help you through.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
So what kinds of things make you laugh? What are
you turning to when you want a good laugh, whether
it's media or something else.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I'm a TV watcher, but I'm not grading papers. I
watch television. I watch a lot of reality shows. Actually
music for me, I laugh at a lot of music.
So of course right now we're listening to Drake and
Kendrick Lamar, and more so than the music of it,
we're reading Twitter like we're reading those parts, and that's
the humor. The humor is in our responses to what's
(37:54):
happening with that. So that's been keeping me on my
toes these days. I feel like there's an update every
five minute. But a lot of those things helped me
out definitely. It's still staying with the friend groups. So
we just finished up a semester and now graduation with Saturday,
so trying to find times to celebrate but also decompressed.
So get with friends, catch up those things. I laugh
(38:16):
at everything, which is partly why my humor is so
authentic to me is that I think this is something
that's important and I love the ways that for black
women were not always considered joyful. So even in the
early parts of my research, I just did a quick
Google search on black women and it was just and
(38:39):
it was an image search, and it was just a
lot of frowns, a lot of powerhouse poses, but there
was nothing that really just said joy, right or laughter,
and we're so much more than yes, a powerhouse post
because we can be powerful right, and there's nothing wrong
with those pieces, but it was the way that you
need some joy and we need just and we need
to figure out to dismantle some of the Black Superwoman
(39:03):
kind of tropes. Is that you need a moment where
you can let your hair down, you can take your
cape off and just be. And I think this is
a lot of the reasons why humor is so important
for me is you just need a space to land
and just to laugh and lay or sit in those moments.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Thank you so much for that. So where can we
stay connected with you, Doctor Horn? What is your website
as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Well, Doctor Joy, I'm a little new to the games,
but I'm an Instagram user, so you can find me
at books and Giggles, Books, Underscore and Giggles there. So
that's sort of my semi professional parts for students and
for me to see where I'm going, what I'm researching. Again,
(39:49):
I'm silly. What means I'm reposting? Usually I repost the
memes that my students create for me, So at the
end of their classes, they get to create memes about
the experience in a humor class that I taught, and
half of them are about me, unfortunately, and fortunately I
raised them right, So you know, I'm always reposting those.
But yes, I'm definitely getting out there. I just published
(40:13):
a chapter on Insecure and Atlanta so called black Awkwardness,
so that is coming out there. Those are interested in
reading those pieces. So I'm very much in the academic
space right now, trying to bridge the gap between the
academic and the person.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Well, this is your foray, Dr Horne, so you would
be doing much more of it. I feel like, thank
you for that.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Well, thank you so much for spending some time with
us today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Absolutely. I'm so glad doctor Horne was able to share
her exercise with us today. To learn more about her
and her work, be sure to visit the show notes
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com es three fifty nine,
and don't forget to text this episode to two of
your girls right now. If you're looking for a therapists
(41:07):
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be a community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
(41:28):
produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
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