April 22, 2024 • 31 mins
Tyler and Wells are tackling a sizzling hot topic today!
Celebrity Chef David Chang and his company Momofuku were feeling the heat for their attempt to trademark the name 'chili crunch' for a condiment that has been used on dishes in China for hundreds of years.
Tyler and Wells, with the assistance of a trademark lawyer, break down the heated debate and weigh in on both sides of this spicy dispute.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Two Dudes in a Kitchen with Tyler Florence.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
And Wells Adams, an iHeartRadio podcast. That is right, it's
time for another episode of Two Dudes in a Kitchen.
It's Wells Adams hanging out with you alongside the very
talented and dashingly handsome Tyler Florence. How are you, Bud.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Well, I'm great, man. You're not so bad yourself. Thank you, Adams.
How you doing, Buddy, You're good. I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You know, we record these in advance, so you know,
by the time this airs, a couple of weeks will
have gone by. But this is one of the biggest
weeks of my life because I am a golf fan
and this is Master's Week, which is a very important
golf tournament to me and my family. And it's funny
(00:48):
because you know, you have brought me into this culinary
world visa vis this podcast, and through Worst Cooks, introduced
me to some amazing chefs. And I think that, I mean,
aside from you, the most amazing person in the culinary
world that I've met because of you is Jose Andreas.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yes, we had dinner with him in Austin two years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We did we you know, like you know who he is,
and I was like, I have no idea, and he's like,
oh my god, he is like one of the best
chefs in the world. But he also does all this
work with a world central cutching Yeah, where basically they
just go and make food for any place that like
really needs help, and like he's really actually changing the world.
(01:37):
And the reason why I bring him up during this
the Masters week is because a fellow Spaniard of his
won the Masters last year, a guy named John Rahm.
And when you win the Masters the next year, you
have to curate the dinner for the Champions Dinner, which
happens the Wednesday before the tournament or the Tuesday for
(01:58):
the tournament. And Jose Andreas is the one who curated
the menu for the Masters. So before we get into
this episode long diet Tribe and prelude in if you
were to win the Masters, Chef Tyler Florence, what would
be on your Master's Champions Dinner menu?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, and I'm not bragging, right, you you know, you
get a chance to you know, being being famous and
all that, right, kind of lived the good life. From
time and time you get very interesting invitations to go
do stuff. It feels kind of super rare. I played
Augusta National and this hurts.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
We talked before, we talked about this and you shot
like two hundred and eight and ye lost.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I lost ten balls. But I had a very very dashing, full,
very expensive golf outfit on. I can't remember who who
was by, but I went the Barney's and I'm like,
I want the best looking golf thing, right, Yeah, But Augusta,
Nashal is very special, right, it is. My people are
from Augusta. My dad's family grew up outside of a
(03:00):
small town called Lincolnton, Georgia, which is just outside of Augusta.
And uh, the Augusta National and the Master's tournament is
a the biggest thing that happens there. It's also it's
just the biggest golf tournament in America. And it's just special.
It's very very very special special place. Right. So the
the golf course is closed most of the year, right,
(03:21):
it's only open for a little while, right, And uh,
when I was there, I can't remember. It was like
Conda Lisa Rice was there when when I was And
I mean it's just like the world's you know, most
influential people. But it's the South, right, So if you're
asking me what I would do, I would have this
because there's a high low thing. Right, go to Augusta National.
(03:42):
It's kind of one of those things you can't you
can you can buy a ticket to go watch, but
you can't buy a ticket to participate. Right.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You get you get selected, you know what I mean.
You and you actually can't get buy a ticket to
go watch. You have to you have to put yourself
in the lottery.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
The lottery. Yeah, so it's super rare, but it's the
d of the day. It's still the South. One of
the famous things they're really famous for there is their
pimento cheese sandwich, which is not the greatest pimenta cheese
sandwich if I could not particularly honest with you. It's
a little basic.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
But it's priced correctly when you go there, the pimena
cheese sandwich. They do not price gouge there. It's two dollars.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I thought it was a buck fiftieth two dollars. Maybe
it's my thing. Yeah, yeah, so I would a I'm
live streaming this idea, I'd update that recipe. So I
think it's a little boring, a little more mayonnaise. I
think a lot more flavor than the roast of peppers, right,
a little more, it's a little more cayenne, just kinda
give a little more zing, maybe slightly better cheese. I'd
(04:38):
make it a churched up five dollars sandwich, Okay, yeah,
because I think people would pay for it. Yeah, yeah,
that's what I would do, all right. When it comes
to dinner, right, I think I would start smoking some
whole hog Georgia too, yep. And I think I would
make it about barbecue. And I think it would be
really really special because I think when people that are
coming from all over the world to u joy the masters,
(05:01):
I think walking out with a taste of the South
would be important. You gotta have sweet tea, you gotta
have space barbecue sauce, you gotta have a good coal slaw,
you gotta have beans, you got a potato salad. And
I think you gotta have just succulent, slow cooked whole
hog pork boom. That's what I would do.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
That was Jordan Speith's choice for his Culinary Champions Dinner.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Are you going? Are you going this year? Well?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I went last year and last year I would love
to go again, but like I get it, it's it's
a once in a lifetime thing. I did it, I would
like to play it. So if you ever had that
connect again, you tell your boy.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I do want to shift gears a little bit because
this is something that I've been seeing a whole lot
in my social media feed on TikTok and on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
You know, TikTok is kind of this.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
New place for like people to really kind of air
their grievances about things that they don't feels it's right.
And I've been seeing a lot of people be very
upset at a colleague of yours in David Chang, who
makes this this you know, spicy chili sauce called Chili Crunch,
and he's been drawing a lot of heat over sending
(06:10):
cease and desist letters to companies about you know, I
guess officially saying that they're going to try to sue
them for kind of doing something similar. And a lot
of people on social media are saying, hey, David Chang,
you're kind of beaten up on the little guy. So
in our kind of text thread before we did the episode,
I just said, Tyler, what's your thoughts. I'm sure you've
(06:32):
worked with this guy before and Food Network and all
that kind of stuff, and I wouldn't want to know
what you thought of this whole kind of big story
it's happening.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Well, I listen. It's it's really interesting, right because I
am both a small business owner, I'm also a medium
business owner. I hold a lot of trademarks. We when
we come up with a concept, trademarking the name and
that the intellectual problem pretty what they call IP and
(07:01):
electrical property is arguably more important than the name itself,
because you know, everything is kind of been invented, but
your particular slant on it is the difference between you
having the right to use it or someone encroaching on
your space that you were clever enough to figure out
(07:23):
first that they can kind of come and start stealing
your market share. Right, Yeah, so I'm a little torn. Right,
So there's one thing that can feel like okay, so
chili crunch, chili crisp, and you guys know what we're
talking about, right, It's that kind of like yummy chili oil.
And there's there's so many different variations of this particular
recipe but it's dried chili's sash, one peppercorn, a garlic onion,
(07:49):
and both those are dehydrated and then they're fried. And
then so this kind of perfume, kind of wonderful flavor
profile is both this kind of like yum me fat
thing that's great on pizza, great on scrambled eggs, but
I also gives you this kind of wonderful texture because
it's crunchy. It's chili crisp or chili crunch. Right. This
has been around for one hundreds of years, and I
(08:10):
think this is where the tear comes from. It's because
how can you trade. You can't trademark mayonnaise. You can't
trademark ketchup. You can't trademark mustard now, but you can
trademark miracle whip, right, because that's not and it's neither one, right,
And or there's a company called just that trademark in
(08:31):
eggless vegan mayonnaise, right, but then they got sued because
they called it mayonnaise and it's not maynaise because it's
got no eggs in it, right, So it's kind of interesting.
So anyway, so because I'm so deep in this because literally,
you know, as a guy who's you know, I have
I don't know, four or five different companies in a
manage right now. All of them I started from scratch,
(08:52):
and all of them I trademarked, right So, who I
want to pipe in on this? Because I did, you
and I could just talk about what we read. I
want to get like a real professional involved in this.
So I asked my trademark attorney from New York City,
Sebastian Levera Risso, who is a partner at Lattis and
(09:12):
Parry out of New York City, to come on and
kind of give us some insight on what it means.
I was asking three simple questions, What is a trademark?
How do you get a trademark? And I think the
most important thing is how do you defend a trademark?
And I think that's where David Ching is at right now,
and I see his side of it. So, if he
(09:34):
has a trademark on Chili Crisp, the question is does
he have a trademark on the name or the recipe?
You can't trademark a recipe, yeah, he can't trademarker recipe.
Now if he just has a name on chili crypts
so what you could call it a thousand different things.
Just come up with a synonym for crispy, right, and
you can call it something else. But I want to
get I want to get Sebastian on. You're gonna like
(09:56):
him because I think you're gonna pick his brain because
you and I think the same way when it comes
to business. But I want to get Sebastian on the
podcast right now so we can just ask him some
good tough questions because this is a guy I go
to for information.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
All right, let's take a quick break. When we come back,
we're going to have Tyler's lawyer on the show. I
hope he's not charging us by the minute. Stick around
and listening to two dudes in the kitchen, all right,
welcome back to two dudes in a kitchen. It's now
three dudes in a kitchen. We're kind of doing something
a little bit different on the heels of this David
(10:29):
Chang trademark issue that's going all over social media. We
thought we would start by bringing in someone who actually
knows what the hell they're talking about. Tyler Florence has
his trademark lawyer in the building right now. Sebastian, how
are you my friend.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Hey, how are you guys? Thanks for having me here
with you today.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I hope that you're charging Tyler by the hour here
for this.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Oh absolutely not. I charged him things, so don't.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
But listen to you. It's worth every penny because I
think the intellectual copyright, the intellectual property that you create
is the real value on all this. And you and
I talk about this all the time, Like I don't.
I can't remember exactly how many trademarks that we you
and I have because we have a bunch. But this
is part of being in business. If you create a concept,
(11:22):
you got to lock down all the URLs, right, you
got to lock down all the social media handles, and
you have to file for a trademark for what it is,
or anybody can just take your thing, right especially that's correct.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, and you you should, you know, like you shouldn't
go further than that. You know, you should always plan
in advance and probably you know, think big. I mean,
are you just selling your products in the US now,
but are you thinking about setting those products in Europe
in the future, Because you should understand that trademarks are
territorial in nature. So the fact that you may have
(11:57):
a trademark registration in the US. Doesn't it sally mean
that you will have protection for the same trademark in
China and Europe, or in Mexico or in Canada, And
everything goes hand in hand, you know, like you mentioned,
you're oh, of course you have to secure that domain
name so you can have a website that is reflecting
(12:17):
your services where you can sell your products, and then
social media, you know, and most importantly you go and
file your TRAMER application with the National Tramer Office, being
that the United States, Canada, you know, wherever you plan
to sell your your products or offer services in the
(12:38):
near future.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So going through this real fast, and you and I
got a chance to speak yesterday. So David Chang is
an interesting position. And I don't know if I necessarily
what would want to be in this position, because like
it's a three hundred plus year old recipe for chili grass, right,
the documentation of this particular recipe goes back so far,
(13:02):
and then there's variegations regionally all throughout Southeast Asia for
chili's and garlic. They also use this in Mexico christ
recipe in Mexico. So the fact that so the question Sebastian.
Does he have a trademark on the recipe or does
he have a trademark on the name Chili crisp slash
(13:22):
chili crunch or whatever he's called it.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yeah, Well, as as matters stand today, and I was looking,
I was doing some research in advance, he does own
a trademark registration for chili Crunch, you know, and he
has recently filed I will assume that in the way
of this dispute a trainmark application for chili Crunch. So
(13:44):
you may want to ask what is exactly a tramark
application or what exactly is a trademark registration. A trademark
registration is, you know, like the title that the US
government grants you and essentially tells you you own that brand.
You own that name for those particular products you know,
in his case, condiments and so forth, and you, as
(14:07):
the owner of that brand, have the ability to exclude
others from using the same or a confusingly similar term
for the same goods or even similar goods or related goods.
So when you look at the records of the US government,
the US Trademark Office, you can tell that he owns
(14:27):
the trademark registration for chili crunch. Now would that trademark
registration with then, you know, an attack based on on
the mark being generic the way that you describe the
recipe for a hundreds of years. That's something to be seen.
I'm quite curious to see how how this dispute uh
(14:51):
evolves and whether the party's uh you know, resource to
litigation or somehow uh sell all these promptly uh be
for this goes to court.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Okay, let's talk about let's talk about defending a trademark.
And I want to talk about it from both sides
of it, because I definitely see both sides of it.
But okay, so let's just say you are Sebastian. You
are representing a small independent condiment producer that makes a
chili crisp, and then you just received a seasoned assist
(15:22):
letter from Mamafuku and David Chang and it probably feels
a little scary because he's got some scratch he can
come after you. Right, what do you do? Do you
do you literally cease production or do you think there's
some leverage to go to fight that seasoned assist letter?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Well, you know the typical answer. It will depend on
a case by case basis right, but you will definitely
would take this seriously. You know, like receiving a season
this is letter is no joke. You know, you have
to to understand that there's liability attached to it. So
you have to probably if you get a season this
is letter, get a trademark attorney to look into it,
(16:00):
and you know that person will be in a position
to stalue the facts, review the records of the US government,
you know, the US Trade our office, and we'll be
able to guide you. You know, like this particular case,
it's it's a tough one. You know, it's a it's
a grey area where you know you can tell. Yeah,
(16:22):
but it's been there that everybody has been referring to
that uh you know, to that ingredient as chili crunch
for one hundreds of years and yet he's the first
one to register it or.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Kind of is what it is that? I mean, it
is what it is, right, I mean if he was
the first person to go, huh, no one's ever circled
the wagons on that particular concept of that recipe and
it's starting to trend up. I'm gonna own it.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, it's that a.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
File of trademark for Chili Crisp and Chili Crunch, and
I'm gonna be the first person to do it exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
And interestingly, in reviewing the records, you know that trademark
registration for Chili Crunch wasn't actually his to begin with. Uh,
you know, I haven't reviewed the records the records in detail,
but it was owned by a different company that I
would presume at some point they got into a dispute
(17:15):
and they ended up settling the dispute by one party
acquiring the rights to the other, you know, And that's
how he got those rights in Chili Crunch. And as
I said, you know before, he recently just recently filed
for Chili Crunch. Now, yeah, you know, the moment that
you have a trademark registration granted by the US Patent
(17:36):
and Trademark Office, that's a very solid piece of evidence
that you are the exclusive owner of the of the
of the brand and that you are entitled to exclude
others from using the same term for the same goods.
And this is the position where he is at at
this point in time. He owned the trademark and until
(17:58):
unless someone goes ahead and challenge that trademark registration by
filing a petition to cancel that will remain active, and
he will have all the rights to go and police
and empties. He's intellectual property.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, so you're David Chang. Now we're on David Chang's
side of the table.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So you've got you know, probably you know, U ten
plus million dollars invested in the scale up of Mamafuku
Chili Crunch, and you've got distribution in you know, most
major grocery stores across to America, and you're doing fifty
million in top line sales, and you're starting to notice
that there's a bunch of copycats that are starting to
(18:39):
come on the market, and you're like, yo, we did
the right thing, right. You can't hate the player. You
got to hate the game. We did the right thing
by filing a trademark application for Chili Crunch, last Chili Crisp,
whatever it is, right, and then and you didn't so
do something else or we'll see in court. Is that
(19:00):
something that you would go, would you do or you
recommend or would you recommend? Trying to figure out how
to settle with some of these people before you feel
like you bankrupt them, because that's the that's that's the
other side of it, right that I think that that's like,
you know, David Chang has always been like a chef
of the people, and now he's kind of being like
the bully of the especially with some of these other
smaller companies. But you're on David Chang's side of the
(19:20):
table for this decision, what do you do?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Well, it's even beyond him because legally, you have a
duty to police and imform your trademarks. So what happened
if what happened if if you were to own that
trademark and just just sit there and let everybody use
your trademark, eventually you will lose your trademark rights because.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
You'll lose the trademark. Yeah, you'll lose the trademark right exactactly.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
So he's actually he has the duty to police and
enforce it. Otherwise anybody will come and say, hey, uh
do a trademark office, Say there's this trademark registration. There's
a colon term. Everybody is using it. Know, there's a
trademark registration for it owned by this party, but they're
not doing anything to protect it, anything to enforce it.
(20:07):
So why, you know, why, what what's the reason for
for having that trademark registered with the USPTO, let's cancel it.
And you know, so he's forced to take action, you
know in a way. Now, how how aggressive you want
to be? That's something that you have to put, you know,
uh imbalance and decide whether you want to be kind
(20:31):
of like a you know, very aggressive or you want
to be more moderate and kindly requests people to see
and de ciast from using the trademarks because he actually
owns it. And that you know that that issue of
how aggressive you want to enforce your enforce your trademark
rights have come up a lot lately because of social media,
(20:56):
and you know how small companies now exactly this case,
you know, our receiving seasons. This is letter from from
the big players, and so instead of hiring an attorney,
the first thing they do is they go to social
media and you know, take a photo of the season.
This is letter, a very aggressive one posted there, and
(21:17):
you know they start saying, look these guys you know,
trying to to to you know, aggressively enforced rights to
a name he doesn't have any rights to and so
forth and me create a big, a huge backlash for this.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
This is my this is my grandmother's recipe, right Like,
how there you don't can't own my grandmother's recipe? Wells,
how do you feel about this? Because you sent me
a text about it and I think this is a
fabulous conversation. What's that? Are you one?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Well, listen, it's super interesting And I come from the
world of like it's really important how you're perceived in
the marketplace, right Like, you know, I'm on a reality
TV show and now always want to be like looked
at as a nice, loved person, and this is a
way for you to become the villain.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I suppose.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
What's interesting to me is I've done a little bit
of research on it. Is this whole kind of caveat
of a trademark being quote unquote merely descriptive. And that's
what a lot of people are saying that this trademark
is that you can't trademark something that's merely descriptive. And one,
you know, there is some precedent with this as well.
(22:31):
So fly by Jing, which is a company that I've
used before, They make a similar chili old called Seshuan
Chili Crisp, not chili Crunch, and they applied for a
trademark back in twenty nineteen, which the US Patent Office denied.
And I don't see the difference between Sessuan Chili Crisp
and chili crunch. They are both the same thing. It's chili,
(22:53):
and then it's describing what it is, which is either
crispy or crunchy. So now I think you're in the
weed of like, wait, hold on, why did you get
a trademark for this? But they didn't get a trademark
for that. And then and I know, Sebastian, you are
not a pr lawyer, but I imagine that you studied
it when you had to take the bar and all
that kind of stuff. Do you think just in terms
(23:14):
of being a lawyer that this is this is worth
the headache? Like this is going to now Sully his
reputation as this man of the people cook. And I'm
not sure if it's worth it just in terms of
being able to hold the trademarks.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
But if that's your driver, okay, so you have a
fiduciary obligation to not only yourself as this founder of
the company, but to your investors, right, and if your
Chili Crisp is your number one driver and a you know,
one hundred million dollars grocery brand, and he's diversified, he
has soy sauces and he has met But what if
this kills his stales? But what if the encroaching, the
(23:53):
encroaching competition that he clearly has the right to not
have to compete with, start to encroach your sales. It's like,
you do you do you wanna? Do you want to
blieve from a thousand cots? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
I don't know, But I want to go back to
the quote unquote merely descriptive part, because I think that's
the most interesting to you. What is the distinction between
sessue and chili crisp and chili crunch to you, Sebastian,
because it to me it seems like the same thing.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Well, actually, you know, what you're saying is quite right.
You know, like in reviewing the records, you can say
you can see that there was an application that was
refused as being merely descriptive. Well, in essence, what it
means is that they say, okay, listen, uh for chili.
That's like generic chili is an ingredient and no one
can own that. It has to be free for people
(24:42):
to refer to it. If I want to say, sell
a burger, and someone gets a registration for burger, then
why am I going to to to to use to
refer to the burger. There's no other way, right, So
that's what happens with merely descriptive. Now, for for for
this trainmark registration and for the one that was refused before,
(25:05):
there's a disclaimer of the term chili, meaning that the
owner of the trademark in this case, David Chang, they
when you know, in the process of attaining that trademark registration,
they agreed that they will not claim exclusive rights over
the term chili right now. They were able to overcome that,
(25:30):
and because they also found a merely descriptiveness refusal, the
difference was that probably one they had a better attorney
and two uh, they've resorted some technicalities, you know, And
that's why it's important to have someone that knows the
in and outs of the of the of the field.
You know, you could overcome a merely uh descriptiveness refusal
(25:54):
if you have used the trademark in commerce, right or
more than five years. So at the time the Chili
Crunch received this like merely descriptive refusal, he had been
using the trademark for for over ten years, so it
was relatively easy for them to say, Okay, that's fine.
(26:19):
It's not the most original trademark, but I have used
this for more than five years and I have put
a lot of money into it, and now no one
has contested my rights. Now I am entitled to get
this trainer registraction. And that's what happened. Now with the
other case, they didn't do it. Yeah, they did receive
(26:41):
the same essentially the same merely descriptive refusal, but instead
of challenging it, they just let it go. So the
application was ultimately abandoned. So that's the difference. You know,
one someone that knew what they were doing, and probably
the other one they didn't know that much.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
This is what I would do. I would I would
I would fight the trademark. If I were David Shang,
I'd fight the trademark because this is what it means
to be in business. Right. It's not always pretty, but
you have investors you got to protect, and you have
a product you got to protect. And then he just
did the good hard work for protecting his concepts, right,
and then I would give the recipe away for free.
(27:20):
So if you want to make this at home, let
me show you how to make it right, so then
nobody can say, well, he has a lock on it,
because if you give that recipe to ten different people,
ten different people are going to make ten different things.
But you can always get the products at your local
whole foods or whatever it is, or get it online.
That's what I would do. I'd give the recipe away
(27:40):
and then I would I would lock out everybody else
owning that term.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
There needs to be you know, like a we need
to make like a distinction. You know, he's just claiming
rights to the name, you know, to the brand because
probably someone else is using ChIL critics or whatever. He's
not claiming proprietary rights over the recipe or at least,
you know, not the millennium. You know, the recipe that's
been there for for a thousand years or one hundred
(28:06):
years in China, so he just you know, the issue
here is now about like you cannot make this recipe,
But the issue is you cannot use this trademark yeacause
that trademark is similar to mine or identical to mine.
And that's where you are stepping into my into my territory.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You can have the recipe, but you can have the
name exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, it's gonna be fascinating to see what happens with
with David going forward, what he decides to do, just
in terms of like, yeah, you're right, his board members,
his investors, and then also his fans and his public opinion,
because I think those are those are also very kind
of important things when it comes to business and selling stuff. Regardless,
it's been a fascinating conversation. Sebastian, thank you so much
(28:49):
for coming on to dudes in the kitchen and he's
shedding some light into into the the world of trademarks.
We appreciate you, and please send all billing to Tyler
Florence in Corporated.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
He's got he's got my address. Yeah, he knows where
to send the bill.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Thank you, guys, pleas sure.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
You're the best, dude, Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Thank you guys all the best.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
See as a Bashan.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Thanks Mane.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Well, very interesting conversation. It's gonna be interesting to see
what happens with David going forward. You know, it's it's
a sticky thing, like you just don't want bad press
as anyone who's in entertainment, and but I totally get it.
You also want to make money, and especially if you've
dumped a bunch of your own money or other people's
money into it, you have to protect your you know, your.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
It is what it is, man, it is what it is, right,
and sometimes it's not pretty. And we've had to send
out these season assist letters and we've also compromised with
people before too. A quick little story before we bounce
out of this one is Miller and Locks, right, So
Miller in Locks was in in Sebastian fora the trademark
application for those things. I own the trademark for that, right, yeah,
(29:52):
and so that that was a cattle company h from
the eighteen sixties, but they have but the trademark was
abandoned in nineteen twenty five. I happened to stumble across
this fabulous story that where the Chase Center where Miller
and Lux sits right now used to be the home
headquarters of millern Lux. So it's just sort of serendipitous
(30:14):
that we found this, and it happened to be in
the same location where we technically built a great steakhouse.
So I just refouled the trademark application and now get
to tell their story. There's another company called Miller and
Lux Wines because the name Miller and Luck is actually
quite famous. They're selling wine out of like Central Valley someplace.
And I told him they could do it because they've
(30:35):
been doing it for ten years. Although I have the
trademark for Miller and Lux Wine. Yeah, I let him
do it so because I didn't want to, like, you know,
cause me coming out of nowhere, and your point was,
it's all about the public perception of what you do. Right.
So I'm selling Miller and Lux wine and so are they,
and I'm not in They can't challenge mine, and I'm
(30:55):
not going to challenge theirs. If somebody else jumps in
the marketplace is a whole different thing. But I felt like,
I think there's give and take and all this kind
of stuff. But I think you do have to protect
your creativity. You're a pe too, Yeah, you gotta check
you you have to protect your intellectual problem. Yeah. Well
it's an interesting conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
If you guys have some thoughts, please hit us up
on Instagram at two Dudes in the Kitchen, Send a
DM or I'm sure, we'll have a clip of this
that you can comment on. And I doubt this is gonna
the last time we talk about it. We're out of here,
but when we come back in just a couple of days,
we're going to be talking all about restaurant etiquettes and
we'll be talking to Sarah Jane Hoe, who has a
(31:33):
new book out called Mind Your Manners, and also she's
on Netflix as well. It's gonna be a very interesting conversation,
so you better mind your p's and cues. We'll see
you next time on Two Dudes in a Kitchen. All right, guys,
thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at two Dudes
in a Kitchen. Make sure to write us a review
and leave us five stars.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
We'll take that and we'll see you guys next time.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
See you next time.
It's Two Dudes in a Kitchen with Tyler Florence.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
And Wells Adams, an iHeartRadio podcast. That is right, it's
time for another episode of Two Dudes in a Kitchen.
It's Wells Adams hanging out with you alongside the very
talented and dashingly handsome Tyler Florence. How are you, Bud.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Well, I'm great, man. You're not so bad yourself. Thank you, Adams.
How you doing, Buddy, You're good. I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You know, we record these in advance, so you know,
by the time this airs, a couple of weeks will
have gone by. But this is one of the biggest
weeks of my life because I am a golf fan
and this is Master's Week, which is a very important
golf tournament to me and my family. And it's funny
(00:48):
because you know, you have brought me into this culinary
world visa vis this podcast, and through Worst Cooks, introduced
me to some amazing chefs. And I think that, I mean,
aside from you, the most amazing person in the culinary
world that I've met because of you is Jose Andreas.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yes, we had dinner with him in Austin two years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We did we you know, like you know who he is,
and I was like, I have no idea, and he's like,
oh my god, he is like one of the best
chefs in the world. But he also does all this
work with a world central cutching Yeah, where basically they
just go and make food for any place that like
really needs help, and like he's really actually changing the world.
(01:37):
And the reason why I bring him up during this
the Masters week is because a fellow Spaniard of his
won the Masters last year, a guy named John Rahm.
And when you win the Masters the next year, you
have to curate the dinner for the Champions Dinner, which
happens the Wednesday before the tournament or the Tuesday for
(01:58):
the tournament. And Jose Andreas is the one who curated
the menu for the Masters. So before we get into
this episode long diet Tribe and prelude in if you
were to win the Masters, Chef Tyler Florence, what would
be on your Master's Champions Dinner menu?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, and I'm not bragging, right, you you know, you
get a chance to you know, being being famous and
all that, right, kind of lived the good life. From
time and time you get very interesting invitations to go
do stuff. It feels kind of super rare. I played
Augusta National and this hurts.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
We talked before, we talked about this and you shot
like two hundred and eight and ye lost.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I lost ten balls. But I had a very very dashing, full,
very expensive golf outfit on. I can't remember who who
was by, but I went the Barney's and I'm like,
I want the best looking golf thing, right, Yeah, But Augusta,
Nashal is very special, right, it is. My people are
from Augusta. My dad's family grew up outside of a
(03:00):
small town called Lincolnton, Georgia, which is just outside of Augusta.
And uh, the Augusta National and the Master's tournament is
a the biggest thing that happens there. It's also it's
just the biggest golf tournament in America. And it's just special.
It's very very very special special place. Right. So the
the golf course is closed most of the year, right,
(03:21):
it's only open for a little while, right, And uh,
when I was there, I can't remember. It was like
Conda Lisa Rice was there when when I was And
I mean it's just like the world's you know, most
influential people. But it's the South, right, So if you're
asking me what I would do, I would have this
because there's a high low thing. Right, go to Augusta National.
(03:42):
It's kind of one of those things you can't you
can you can buy a ticket to go watch, but
you can't buy a ticket to participate. Right.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You get you get selected, you know what I mean.
You and you actually can't get buy a ticket to
go watch. You have to you have to put yourself
in the lottery.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
The lottery. Yeah, so it's super rare, but it's the
d of the day. It's still the South. One of
the famous things they're really famous for there is their
pimento cheese sandwich, which is not the greatest pimenta cheese
sandwich if I could not particularly honest with you. It's
a little basic.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
But it's priced correctly when you go there, the pimena
cheese sandwich. They do not price gouge there. It's two dollars.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I thought it was a buck fiftieth two dollars. Maybe
it's my thing. Yeah, yeah, so I would a I'm
live streaming this idea, I'd update that recipe. So I
think it's a little boring, a little more mayonnaise. I
think a lot more flavor than the roast of peppers, right,
a little more, it's a little more cayenne, just kinda
give a little more zing, maybe slightly better cheese. I'd
(04:38):
make it a churched up five dollars sandwich, Okay, yeah,
because I think people would pay for it. Yeah, yeah,
that's what I would do, all right. When it comes
to dinner, right, I think I would start smoking some
whole hog Georgia too, yep. And I think I would
make it about barbecue. And I think it would be
really really special because I think when people that are
coming from all over the world to u joy the masters,
(05:01):
I think walking out with a taste of the South
would be important. You gotta have sweet tea, you gotta
have space barbecue sauce, you gotta have a good coal slaw,
you gotta have beans, you got a potato salad. And
I think you gotta have just succulent, slow cooked whole
hog pork boom. That's what I would do.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
That was Jordan Speith's choice for his Culinary Champions Dinner.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Are you going? Are you going this year? Well?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I went last year and last year I would love
to go again, but like I get it, it's it's
a once in a lifetime thing. I did it, I would
like to play it. So if you ever had that
connect again, you tell your boy.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I do want to shift gears a little bit because
this is something that I've been seeing a whole lot
in my social media feed on TikTok and on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
You know, TikTok is kind of this.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
New place for like people to really kind of air
their grievances about things that they don't feels it's right.
And I've been seeing a lot of people be very
upset at a colleague of yours in David Chang, who
makes this this you know, spicy chili sauce called Chili Crunch,
and he's been drawing a lot of heat over sending
(06:10):
cease and desist letters to companies about you know, I
guess officially saying that they're going to try to sue
them for kind of doing something similar. And a lot
of people on social media are saying, hey, David Chang,
you're kind of beaten up on the little guy. So
in our kind of text thread before we did the episode,
I just said, Tyler, what's your thoughts. I'm sure you've
(06:32):
worked with this guy before and Food Network and all
that kind of stuff, and I wouldn't want to know
what you thought of this whole kind of big story
it's happening.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Well, I listen. It's it's really interesting, right because I
am both a small business owner, I'm also a medium
business owner. I hold a lot of trademarks. We when
we come up with a concept, trademarking the name and
that the intellectual problem pretty what they call IP and
(07:01):
electrical property is arguably more important than the name itself,
because you know, everything is kind of been invented, but
your particular slant on it is the difference between you
having the right to use it or someone encroaching on
your space that you were clever enough to figure out
(07:23):
first that they can kind of come and start stealing
your market share. Right, Yeah, so I'm a little torn. Right,
So there's one thing that can feel like okay, so
chili crunch, chili crisp, and you guys know what we're
talking about, right, It's that kind of like yummy chili oil.
And there's there's so many different variations of this particular
recipe but it's dried chili's sash, one peppercorn, a garlic onion,
(07:49):
and both those are dehydrated and then they're fried. And
then so this kind of perfume, kind of wonderful flavor
profile is both this kind of like yum me fat
thing that's great on pizza, great on scrambled eggs, but
I also gives you this kind of wonderful texture because
it's crunchy. It's chili crisp or chili crunch. Right. This
has been around for one hundreds of years, and I
(08:10):
think this is where the tear comes from. It's because
how can you trade. You can't trademark mayonnaise. You can't
trademark ketchup. You can't trademark mustard now, but you can
trademark miracle whip, right, because that's not and it's neither one, right,
And or there's a company called just that trademark in
(08:31):
eggless vegan mayonnaise, right, but then they got sued because
they called it mayonnaise and it's not maynaise because it's
got no eggs in it, right, So it's kind of interesting.
So anyway, so because I'm so deep in this because literally,
you know, as a guy who's you know, I have
I don't know, four or five different companies in a
manage right now. All of them I started from scratch,
(08:52):
and all of them I trademarked, right So, who I
want to pipe in on this? Because I did, you
and I could just talk about what we read. I
want to get like a real professional involved in this.
So I asked my trademark attorney from New York City,
Sebastian Levera Risso, who is a partner at Lattis and
(09:12):
Parry out of New York City, to come on and
kind of give us some insight on what it means.
I was asking three simple questions, What is a trademark?
How do you get a trademark? And I think the
most important thing is how do you defend a trademark?
And I think that's where David Ching is at right now,
and I see his side of it. So, if he
(09:34):
has a trademark on Chili Crisp, the question is does
he have a trademark on the name or the recipe?
You can't trademark a recipe, yeah, he can't trademarker recipe.
Now if he just has a name on chili crypts
so what you could call it a thousand different things.
Just come up with a synonym for crispy, right, and
you can call it something else. But I want to
get I want to get Sebastian on. You're gonna like
(09:56):
him because I think you're gonna pick his brain because
you and I think the same way when it comes
to business. But I want to get Sebastian on the
podcast right now so we can just ask him some
good tough questions because this is a guy I go
to for information.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
All right, let's take a quick break. When we come back,
we're going to have Tyler's lawyer on the show. I
hope he's not charging us by the minute. Stick around
and listening to two dudes in the kitchen, all right,
welcome back to two dudes in a kitchen. It's now
three dudes in a kitchen. We're kind of doing something
a little bit different on the heels of this David
(10:29):
Chang trademark issue that's going all over social media. We
thought we would start by bringing in someone who actually
knows what the hell they're talking about. Tyler Florence has
his trademark lawyer in the building right now. Sebastian, how
are you my friend.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Hey, how are you guys? Thanks for having me here
with you today.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I hope that you're charging Tyler by the hour here
for this.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Oh absolutely not. I charged him things, so don't.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
But listen to you. It's worth every penny because I
think the intellectual copyright, the intellectual property that you create
is the real value on all this. And you and
I talk about this all the time, Like I don't.
I can't remember exactly how many trademarks that we you
and I have because we have a bunch. But this
is part of being in business. If you create a concept,
(11:22):
you got to lock down all the URLs, right, you
got to lock down all the social media handles, and
you have to file for a trademark for what it is,
or anybody can just take your thing, right especially that's correct.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, and you you should, you know, like you shouldn't
go further than that. You know, you should always plan
in advance and probably you know, think big. I mean,
are you just selling your products in the US now,
but are you thinking about setting those products in Europe
in the future, Because you should understand that trademarks are
territorial in nature. So the fact that you may have
(11:57):
a trademark registration in the US. Doesn't it sally mean
that you will have protection for the same trademark in
China and Europe, or in Mexico or in Canada, And
everything goes hand in hand, you know, like you mentioned,
you're oh, of course you have to secure that domain
name so you can have a website that is reflecting
(12:17):
your services where you can sell your products, and then
social media, you know, and most importantly you go and
file your TRAMER application with the National Tramer Office, being
that the United States, Canada, you know, wherever you plan
to sell your your products or offer services in the
(12:38):
near future.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So going through this real fast, and you and I
got a chance to speak yesterday. So David Chang is
an interesting position. And I don't know if I necessarily
what would want to be in this position, because like
it's a three hundred plus year old recipe for chili grass, right,
the documentation of this particular recipe goes back so far,
(13:02):
and then there's variegations regionally all throughout Southeast Asia for
chili's and garlic. They also use this in Mexico christ
recipe in Mexico. So the fact that so the question Sebastian.
Does he have a trademark on the recipe or does
he have a trademark on the name Chili crisp slash
(13:22):
chili crunch or whatever he's called it.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yeah, Well, as as matters stand today, and I was looking,
I was doing some research in advance, he does own
a trademark registration for chili Crunch, you know, and he
has recently filed I will assume that in the way
of this dispute a trainmark application for chili Crunch. So
(13:44):
you may want to ask what is exactly a tramark
application or what exactly is a trademark registration. A trademark
registration is, you know, like the title that the US
government grants you and essentially tells you you own that brand.
You own that name for those particular products you know,
in his case, condiments and so forth, and you, as
(14:07):
the owner of that brand, have the ability to exclude
others from using the same or a confusingly similar term
for the same goods or even similar goods or related goods.
So when you look at the records of the US government,
the US Trademark Office, you can tell that he owns
(14:27):
the trademark registration for chili crunch. Now would that trademark
registration with then, you know, an attack based on on
the mark being generic the way that you describe the
recipe for a hundreds of years. That's something to be seen.
I'm quite curious to see how how this dispute uh
(14:51):
evolves and whether the party's uh you know, resource to
litigation or somehow uh sell all these promptly uh be
for this goes to court.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Okay, let's talk about let's talk about defending a trademark.
And I want to talk about it from both sides
of it, because I definitely see both sides of it.
But okay, so let's just say you are Sebastian. You
are representing a small independent condiment producer that makes a
chili crisp, and then you just received a seasoned assist
(15:22):
letter from Mamafuku and David Chang and it probably feels
a little scary because he's got some scratch he can
come after you. Right, what do you do? Do you
do you literally cease production or do you think there's
some leverage to go to fight that seasoned assist letter?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Well, you know the typical answer. It will depend on
a case by case basis right, but you will definitely
would take this seriously. You know, like receiving a season
this is letter is no joke. You know, you have
to to understand that there's liability attached to it. So
you have to probably if you get a season this
is letter, get a trademark attorney to look into it,
(16:00):
and you know that person will be in a position
to stalue the facts, review the records of the US government,
you know, the US Trade our office, and we'll be
able to guide you. You know, like this particular case,
it's it's a tough one. You know, it's a it's
a grey area where you know you can tell. Yeah,
(16:22):
but it's been there that everybody has been referring to
that uh you know, to that ingredient as chili crunch
for one hundreds of years and yet he's the first
one to register it or.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Kind of is what it is that? I mean, it
is what it is, right, I mean if he was
the first person to go, huh, no one's ever circled
the wagons on that particular concept of that recipe and
it's starting to trend up. I'm gonna own it.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, it's that a.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
File of trademark for Chili Crisp and Chili Crunch, and
I'm gonna be the first person to do it exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
And interestingly, in reviewing the records, you know that trademark
registration for Chili Crunch wasn't actually his to begin with. Uh,
you know, I haven't reviewed the records the records in detail,
but it was owned by a different company that I
would presume at some point they got into a dispute
(17:15):
and they ended up settling the dispute by one party
acquiring the rights to the other, you know, And that's
how he got those rights in Chili Crunch. And as
I said, you know before, he recently just recently filed
for Chili Crunch. Now, yeah, you know, the moment that
you have a trademark registration granted by the US Patent
(17:36):
and Trademark Office, that's a very solid piece of evidence
that you are the exclusive owner of the of the
of the brand and that you are entitled to exclude
others from using the same term for the same goods.
And this is the position where he is at at
this point in time. He owned the trademark and until
(17:58):
unless someone goes ahead and challenge that trademark registration by
filing a petition to cancel that will remain active, and
he will have all the rights to go and police
and empties. He's intellectual property.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, so you're David Chang. Now we're on David Chang's
side of the table.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So you've got you know, probably you know, U ten
plus million dollars invested in the scale up of Mamafuku
Chili Crunch, and you've got distribution in you know, most
major grocery stores across to America, and you're doing fifty
million in top line sales, and you're starting to notice
that there's a bunch of copycats that are starting to
(18:39):
come on the market, and you're like, yo, we did
the right thing, right. You can't hate the player. You
got to hate the game. We did the right thing
by filing a trademark application for Chili Crunch, last Chili Crisp,
whatever it is, right, and then and you didn't so
do something else or we'll see in court. Is that
(19:00):
something that you would go, would you do or you
recommend or would you recommend? Trying to figure out how
to settle with some of these people before you feel
like you bankrupt them, because that's the that's that's the
other side of it, right that I think that that's like,
you know, David Chang has always been like a chef
of the people, and now he's kind of being like
the bully of the especially with some of these other
smaller companies. But you're on David Chang's side of the
(19:20):
table for this decision, what do you do?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Well, it's even beyond him because legally, you have a
duty to police and imform your trademarks. So what happened
if what happened if if you were to own that
trademark and just just sit there and let everybody use
your trademark, eventually you will lose your trademark rights because.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
You'll lose the trademark. Yeah, you'll lose the trademark right exactactly.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
So he's actually he has the duty to police and
enforce it. Otherwise anybody will come and say, hey, uh
do a trademark office, Say there's this trademark registration. There's
a colon term. Everybody is using it. Know, there's a
trademark registration for it owned by this party, but they're
not doing anything to protect it, anything to enforce it.
(20:07):
So why, you know, why, what what's the reason for
for having that trademark registered with the USPTO, let's cancel it.
And you know, so he's forced to take action, you
know in a way. Now, how how aggressive you want
to be? That's something that you have to put, you know,
uh imbalance and decide whether you want to be kind
(20:31):
of like a you know, very aggressive or you want
to be more moderate and kindly requests people to see
and de ciast from using the trademarks because he actually
owns it. And that you know that that issue of
how aggressive you want to enforce your enforce your trademark
rights have come up a lot lately because of social media,
(20:56):
and you know how small companies now exactly this case,
you know, our receiving seasons. This is letter from from
the big players, and so instead of hiring an attorney,
the first thing they do is they go to social
media and you know, take a photo of the season.
This is letter, a very aggressive one posted there, and
(21:17):
you know they start saying, look these guys you know,
trying to to to you know, aggressively enforced rights to
a name he doesn't have any rights to and so
forth and me create a big, a huge backlash for this.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
This is my this is my grandmother's recipe, right Like,
how there you don't can't own my grandmother's recipe? Wells,
how do you feel about this? Because you sent me
a text about it and I think this is a
fabulous conversation. What's that? Are you one?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Well, listen, it's super interesting And I come from the
world of like it's really important how you're perceived in
the marketplace, right Like, you know, I'm on a reality
TV show and now always want to be like looked
at as a nice, loved person, and this is a
way for you to become the villain.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I suppose.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
What's interesting to me is I've done a little bit
of research on it. Is this whole kind of caveat
of a trademark being quote unquote merely descriptive. And that's
what a lot of people are saying that this trademark
is that you can't trademark something that's merely descriptive. And one,
you know, there is some precedent with this as well.
(22:31):
So fly by Jing, which is a company that I've
used before, They make a similar chili old called Seshuan
Chili Crisp, not chili Crunch, and they applied for a
trademark back in twenty nineteen, which the US Patent Office denied.
And I don't see the difference between Sessuan Chili Crisp
and chili crunch. They are both the same thing. It's chili,
(22:53):
and then it's describing what it is, which is either
crispy or crunchy. So now I think you're in the
weed of like, wait, hold on, why did you get
a trademark for this? But they didn't get a trademark
for that. And then and I know, Sebastian, you are
not a pr lawyer, but I imagine that you studied
it when you had to take the bar and all
that kind of stuff. Do you think just in terms
(23:14):
of being a lawyer that this is this is worth
the headache? Like this is going to now Sully his
reputation as this man of the people cook. And I'm
not sure if it's worth it just in terms of
being able to hold the trademarks.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
But if that's your driver, okay, so you have a
fiduciary obligation to not only yourself as this founder of
the company, but to your investors, right, and if your
Chili Crisp is your number one driver and a you know,
one hundred million dollars grocery brand, and he's diversified, he
has soy sauces and he has met But what if
this kills his stales? But what if the encroaching, the
(23:53):
encroaching competition that he clearly has the right to not
have to compete with, start to encroach your sales. It's like,
you do you do you wanna? Do you want to
blieve from a thousand cots? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
I don't know, But I want to go back to
the quote unquote merely descriptive part, because I think that's
the most interesting to you. What is the distinction between
sessue and chili crisp and chili crunch to you, Sebastian,
because it to me it seems like the same thing.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Well, actually, you know, what you're saying is quite right.
You know, like in reviewing the records, you can say
you can see that there was an application that was
refused as being merely descriptive. Well, in essence, what it
means is that they say, okay, listen, uh for chili.
That's like generic chili is an ingredient and no one
can own that. It has to be free for people
(24:42):
to refer to it. If I want to say, sell
a burger, and someone gets a registration for burger, then
why am I going to to to to use to
refer to the burger. There's no other way, right, So
that's what happens with merely descriptive. Now, for for for
this trainmark registration and for the one that was refused before,
(25:05):
there's a disclaimer of the term chili, meaning that the
owner of the trademark in this case, David Chang, they
when you know, in the process of attaining that trademark registration,
they agreed that they will not claim exclusive rights over
the term chili right now. They were able to overcome that,
(25:30):
and because they also found a merely descriptiveness refusal, the
difference was that probably one they had a better attorney
and two uh, they've resorted some technicalities, you know, And
that's why it's important to have someone that knows the
in and outs of the of the of the field.
You know, you could overcome a merely uh descriptiveness refusal
(25:54):
if you have used the trademark in commerce, right or
more than five years. So at the time the Chili
Crunch received this like merely descriptive refusal, he had been
using the trademark for for over ten years, so it
was relatively easy for them to say, Okay, that's fine.
(26:19):
It's not the most original trademark, but I have used
this for more than five years and I have put
a lot of money into it, and now no one
has contested my rights. Now I am entitled to get
this trainer registraction. And that's what happened. Now with the
other case, they didn't do it. Yeah, they did receive
(26:41):
the same essentially the same merely descriptive refusal, but instead
of challenging it, they just let it go. So the
application was ultimately abandoned. So that's the difference. You know,
one someone that knew what they were doing, and probably
the other one they didn't know that much.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
This is what I would do. I would I would
I would fight the trademark. If I were David Shang,
I'd fight the trademark because this is what it means
to be in business. Right. It's not always pretty, but
you have investors you got to protect, and you have
a product you got to protect. And then he just
did the good hard work for protecting his concepts, right,
and then I would give the recipe away for free.
(27:20):
So if you want to make this at home, let
me show you how to make it right, so then
nobody can say, well, he has a lock on it,
because if you give that recipe to ten different people,
ten different people are going to make ten different things.
But you can always get the products at your local
whole foods or whatever it is, or get it online.
That's what I would do. I'd give the recipe away
(27:40):
and then I would I would lock out everybody else
owning that term.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
There needs to be you know, like a we need
to make like a distinction. You know, he's just claiming
rights to the name, you know, to the brand because
probably someone else is using ChIL critics or whatever. He's
not claiming proprietary rights over the recipe or at least,
you know, not the millennium. You know, the recipe that's
been there for for a thousand years or one hundred
(28:06):
years in China, so he just you know, the issue
here is now about like you cannot make this recipe,
But the issue is you cannot use this trademark yeacause
that trademark is similar to mine or identical to mine.
And that's where you are stepping into my into my territory.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You can have the recipe, but you can have the
name exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, it's gonna be fascinating to see what happens with
with David going forward, what he decides to do, just
in terms of like, yeah, you're right, his board members,
his investors, and then also his fans and his public opinion,
because I think those are those are also very kind
of important things when it comes to business and selling stuff. Regardless,
it's been a fascinating conversation. Sebastian, thank you so much
(28:49):
for coming on to dudes in the kitchen and he's
shedding some light into into the the world of trademarks.
We appreciate you, and please send all billing to Tyler
Florence in Corporated.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
He's got he's got my address. Yeah, he knows where
to send the bill.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Thank you, guys, pleas sure.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
You're the best, dude, Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Thank you guys all the best.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
See as a Bashan.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Thanks Mane.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Well, very interesting conversation. It's gonna be interesting to see
what happens with David going forward. You know, it's it's
a sticky thing, like you just don't want bad press
as anyone who's in entertainment, and but I totally get it.
You also want to make money, and especially if you've
dumped a bunch of your own money or other people's
money into it, you have to protect your you know, your.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
It is what it is, man, it is what it is, right,
and sometimes it's not pretty. And we've had to send
out these season assist letters and we've also compromised with
people before too. A quick little story before we bounce
out of this one is Miller and Locks, right, So
Miller in Locks was in in Sebastian fora the trademark
application for those things. I own the trademark for that, right, yeah,
(29:52):
and so that that was a cattle company h from
the eighteen sixties, but they have but the trademark was
abandoned in nineteen twenty five. I happened to stumble across
this fabulous story that where the Chase Center where Miller
and Lux sits right now used to be the home
headquarters of millern Lux. So it's just sort of serendipitous
(30:14):
that we found this, and it happened to be in
the same location where we technically built a great steakhouse.
So I just refouled the trademark application and now get
to tell their story. There's another company called Miller and
Lux Wines because the name Miller and Luck is actually
quite famous. They're selling wine out of like Central Valley someplace.
And I told him they could do it because they've
(30:35):
been doing it for ten years. Although I have the
trademark for Miller and Lux Wine. Yeah, I let him
do it so because I didn't want to, like, you know,
cause me coming out of nowhere, and your point was,
it's all about the public perception of what you do. Right.
So I'm selling Miller and Lux wine and so are they,
and I'm not in They can't challenge mine, and I'm
(30:55):
not going to challenge theirs. If somebody else jumps in
the marketplace is a whole different thing. But I felt like,
I think there's give and take and all this kind
of stuff. But I think you do have to protect
your creativity. You're a pe too, Yeah, you gotta check
you you have to protect your intellectual problem. Yeah. Well
it's an interesting conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
If you guys have some thoughts, please hit us up
on Instagram at two Dudes in the Kitchen, Send a
DM or I'm sure, we'll have a clip of this
that you can comment on. And I doubt this is gonna
the last time we talk about it. We're out of here,
but when we come back in just a couple of days,
we're going to be talking all about restaurant etiquettes and
we'll be talking to Sarah Jane Hoe, who has a
(31:33):
new book out called Mind Your Manners, and also she's
on Netflix as well. It's gonna be a very interesting conversation,
so you better mind your p's and cues. We'll see
you next time on Two Dudes in a Kitchen. All right, guys,
thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at two Dudes
in a Kitchen. Make sure to write us a review
and leave us five stars.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
We'll take that and we'll see you guys next time.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
See you next time.
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