July 14, 2022 • 29 mins
Moms in America have always gotten a raw deal, but nothing showed it more than the pandemic. With no paid leave, the fight for flexible work, and discrimination in the workplace, it’s no wonder 85% of Millenial women say being a mom is a struggle right now. But help is on the way—Reshma Saujani, the woman who founded Girls Who Code and the Marshall Plan for Moms, is here and she’s on a mission. Her new book, Pay Up: The Future of Women and Work, is calling for private and public policies to completely reconfigure the workplace. “Cancel all the women's empowerment series that you have!” is her message for employers, “and focus your company on how you are going to change all your corporate policies to make it possible for women to work and have kids.” She’s got ideas – and the track record to prove she can make them come to life. Is this the woman who’s about to change everything for moms across America? Our host Amanda de Cadenet finds out.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My guest today is an amazing woman. Her name is
Rushma so Johnny. She's an author and activist who founded
Girls Who Code. But these days, Rushma is hard at
work with her new not for profit Martial Plan for
Moms that seeks to help mothers re enter the workforce
in the aftermath of the COVID nineteen pandemic. Rushma is
also the author of a new book called Pay Up,
(00:20):
The Future of Women in Work and Why It's different
than you think. All right, so let's talk about your
new book, pay Up The Future of Women in Work,
and God knows there's an important conversation that needs to
be had around women in the workplace. Why did you
write this book now? And if you could, please give
our read our listeners just an overview of what the
(00:41):
book is about. Yeah, I mean I wrote Pay Up
because women are in crisis, and you know, the only
way out is to transform our workplaces. It's been two
years since the pandemic and today we're still missing one
point one million women from a labor force. You know,
women of color have especially been hit the hardest. Right now,
one out of three women are considering leaving their jobs,
(01:03):
and of mothers say that they're anxious and depressed. And
even if you you know, put all the statistics aside,
like the past two years have just crushed moms and
the problems that we know have been facing living in
a country that doesn't have paid leave or affordable childcare
or parental income you know, or even you know, support
(01:24):
for flexibility, Like these are things that have been brewing
for decades and COVID just exacerbated them. Yeah, I was
gonna say, these are these are istues that have been
around for a really long time, but COVID has accelerated
the need for more support and you know the things
that you mentioned. So ultimately, when you're saying one in
(01:46):
three moms are thinking about what leaving the workforce, I
guess my question is, you know, being able to leave
the workforce means you're not going to We're not going
to have income. So what's the thinking behind wanting to leave?
It's just too much, it's too overwhelming. If you have
a child and you are thinking of leaving the workforce,
(02:08):
how are people going to support themselves? Yeah, it's a
great question, and I think the numbers are actually one
third are either leaving the workforce or changing their jobs,
and I think what you've seen, you're right. We live
in a country, United States where people have to work.
You know, this isn't the nineteen fifties where you even
could stay at home. It's just way too expensive to live.
And so what you're what a lot of women had
(02:29):
to do because of the pandemic was essentially because their caretaking.
You know, two thirds of caretaking is done by women,
whether that's children or elderly care, you know, because they
were the ones doing the homeschooling, because they're the ones
that are taking care of our kids that are in
the middle of a mental health crisis. Many women are,
you know, are down shifting their jobs. So if they're
working full time now they're working part time. If they
(02:51):
were working in an industry that didn't offer a lot
of flexibility, they're working in another industry that does. And
so they're having to essentially supplement a lot of their
paid labor for unpaid labor. And this is why it
feels like we're in this never ending you know, chase
towards equality, you know, whether it's equality in the boardroom,
equality and mainstream of quality with women starting their businesses.
(03:12):
Because women have been in this constant conflict of having
to negotiate being a mother and negotiate having a job,
and it's never ever ever worked, and so we're constantly
having to make trade offs. And you know, a mom
will always choose her child over her job. Well, the
problem is is that something always suffers. There is no way.
(03:35):
I was a mother at age nineteen and again I
had twins, you know, fourteen years latest. I've been a
mom my whole working adult life. Actually, um so I have.
I forgot many years of experience of what you're describing
with managing, you know, a full time career and parenting children.
(03:57):
And the truth is is that something has to stuffer.
There is no way that you can be present for
your job and present for your kids, um, and take
care of yourself um equally. At the same time. It's always,
for me at least, been about moving around where the
impact is. Okay, my kids, UM, let me, they've been
getting more of me. Maybe I can take a little
(04:17):
bit more time away from them and give it to
my work. Okay, my work, you know is suffering that
needs more time. It's just moving the impact around. We say,
it's like it's like a constant game of tetris. Yes,
it really is. Really you're and you're never you're just
exhausted because you've let somebody down or you let yourself down, right,
and you're you're constantly feeling like it's never enough. So
(04:40):
what's the solution though, because you know, I when I
hear you talking, I'm thinking, Okay, is the solution for
us to leave the workforce? Because ultimately right, So what
is the solution? What? What do you talk about in
the book, Well, here's the problem. Well, the way that
we were navigating this was putting it on women. So
we would literally say to women, you know, I was
(05:01):
I did this. I'd be in the pain. You know.
I'd be in a giving a talk and a young
woman to raise her hand and she'd say, Mr Johnny,
Mr Johnny, like, how do you balance being a CEO
and a mom? And I may have just come from
the green room like breastfeeding my son, and I'd literally
waved my hand and say, don't worry about it, just
just keep working hard. And so I was taught that
the problem is not the workforce. The problem is me.
(05:24):
I need to try harder, I need to lean in more,
I need to do a power pose I need to
find a mentor. I need to read another book about confidence, right,
I need to fix myself, lean in until you completely
collapse and full over that. Like you know, girl boss
culture was really really, really toxic and harmful because we
thought that this was an individual problem. And the Instagram
(05:44):
didn't help because you think, well, this is just me,
Like man, I look at her and she's just balancing
having a job and having a kid and having a
dog and having an It's dishonest. It's dishonest. People aren't
honest about the reality of what's going on because I
don't know one woman who has you know, who's working,
who has a family that is you know, is skipping
through the fields. I don't know anybody. It's just that
(06:06):
most people don't want to admit how they are struggling
with it. And I think fundamentally we're doing women a
disturvice to not be honest about what what the reality is.
Absolutely and I think that when we were focused on
and fixing the woman, and I would say, and not
fixing the structure. So I think the solution is this,
We've never lived in a place where we actually gave
(06:28):
women a fair chance to succeed in the workplace because
we've built workplaces for men who had no no caregiving responsibilities,
and we should have built them for women. I always argue, like,
you should always build things around the most vulnerable, and
the most vulnerable person in our workforce is a single woman,
you know, a woman of color who doesn't have a
(06:48):
lot of support, And so what does the workplace look
like when it's built for her to succeed and thrive?
And so that means you know, one and that these
are the things that some of the things I talked
about my book is like, you know, living in a
world that offers paid leave. You know, most women go
back to work ten days after having even if you
had a c section, so you're physically healed or mentally recovered,
(07:10):
and you're thrown back into the workforce. Well, that does
not lead to you maybe long term success right or
or or stability. And so we pay leave. You know,
we need to have affordable childcare. Part of this, like
and you know, childcare, chocolate, chocolate. It's the biggest reason
why women are down shifting their careers or moving in
and out of the workforce. Childcare. You're paying most of
(07:32):
your income on childcat you're paying to work. Yeah, you're
working to work. Period. Most of us right now, even
in a you know, even in a middle middle class
income SA are working to work. And then you're exhausted
and you're angry, and you're young at your kids and
you're feeling you know what I mean, and they're just like,
why am I doing this? And what are my options?
(07:54):
But ultimately, what you're talking about when you're saying that
a lot of women are going back have to go
back to what ten days off they've given both without
paid um, you know, without paid leave, even if they've
had a c section. Advocating for paid leave, especially off
you've had a c section and you have a new bone,
is just basic human rights. It's human rights. But we
(08:17):
haven't had basic human rights in the world, I know, right,
And I think about I always say, like, you know, listen,
think about pregnancy. Like the most vestigatory woman I knew
hid their pregnancy to the very last second. I can't
tell you how many times I've been in zoom and
women are now able to wait eight nine months, right like, oh,
by the way, did I tell you, Like, I'm having
a baby in two weeks? And we think that that's normal.
(08:41):
And no one, no one, even the person who was
receiving this information isn't like, oh, well, what is it
about this workplace that I've created that you feel like
you have to wait till the last possible second to
tell me that you're having a baby. And so this
that's the implicit deal that we've had to make to work,
and we've tolerated it, and we've not think basically just
not even thought that there's anything wrong with it. And
(09:04):
so that, to me is such a great example of
how how messed up it is and how broken it is. Well,
it is broken, but how do we fix something that
has been Like you said, it was not built for
us and we know what it takes to change infrastructure
that is built to serve not our agenda, um, not
(09:24):
not people who can buff and who are mothering. So
how can we fix this because it's no, it's no
small feet. And I hear you talk and I'm like, yes,
these are old, great ideas, Rashima, but actually how do
we do them? How? So let's let's start with the childcare.
I mean, we just launched a national Business Childcare Coalition
to get companies to start subsidizing chalkcare. Companies pay for IVF,
(09:46):
they pay for our museum memberships and or gym memberships.
They should be paying for Chulker because Choldker is an
economic issue, and you know, we've got a lot of
companies to sign up. It's actually shockingly not as controversial
as I thought. I think the reality though, is that
we have to make it clear as workers men, you know,
both both you know, men and women, that this is
something that we need. Just like I'm not going to
(10:08):
go work for a company that doesn't provide some sort
of healthcare, not going to work for a company doesn't
provide some sort of childcare benefit. You know, this will
this will exclude a lot of small If a company
has to provide pay you know, has to pay contribute
to childcare, it's going to exclude a lot of small
companies from being able to offer that because they just
(10:28):
don't have the financial wherewithal to be able to do that.
So does it limit somebody that they have to go
work for a more more established company. Ye, No, I
think that I think that you've seen so I think
the way that we think about this is like the
struggles that hourly workers have versus you know, salaried workers.
So for a lot of people, they work for small
businesses right or their hourly workers. And so you know,
(10:52):
what are the different ways that you can actually support
people with childcare there? And you know, when we did
a survey with McKenzie, a lot of people said, well,
you know what I need is just predictability or flexibility
in my schedule. So if I got to leave because
my kids daycare center has a COVID outbreak, you know
I got to run out of the office. I shouldn't
get fired for that. You know, I should get the
grace of being able to have flexibility in my schedule, predictability,
(11:18):
basic humanity. But it doesn't. But it's not happening right
now right now. I know, I'm just saying how ludicrous
it is. Ultimately, Rushma, what we're talking about is like
basic human rights and humanity and the fact that in
two we're just talking about those things as being things
that we should expect and we should demand. It's shocking
(11:38):
to me that we're still having this discussion at this
stage of the game. But you know, it's but you know,
I think it's also though very wild, is we haven't
really been having this conversation we were focusing. We were
actually like lied to and talk about like corporate feminism.
We were basically bought into this big lie. And what
the conversation I don't know about you, but I was
having was like, how do I get a mentor, how
do I get a sponsor? How do I learned how
(11:59):
to raise my hand? How do I learn that skills?
It was all about I was the problem. Yeah, well
it's so, it's very true. I think now the opportunity
is now, I see I always say, now, I see
that actually cancel all the women's empowerment series that you
have and solely focus as a company, and how you're
going to change your corporate policies to basically make it
(12:21):
possible for women to work and have kids. So that
means auditing your pay leave policies, auditing your benefits packages,
you know, designing hybrid work so you don't penalize women
who take advantage of flexibility like and and the ten
other things that I'm not even thinking about, right, But actually,
what I hear you saying is corporate feminism and that
whole uh, you know, that whole lie that you said
(12:45):
we were sold it's actually been a great distraction from
the real issues, which is what we're talking about here.
That's right, and I think it's a great way of
putting it. It's been a great distraction. So even though
we're like, oh my god, this is when I talk
about it's like it's like I'm like talking about unicorns. People, Well,
is this really going to happen? And I'm like, wait
a minute, Actually, I actually think that this can happen.
(13:08):
I don't think it's so crazy because I do think
that we're living in a moment Like listen, even right now,
you know, for months and months and months and all
this resistance to flexibility and remote work, and now like
you know, like employees are are literally rioting. They're like,
we are not coming back five days a week. So
I think we're like winning the battle in changing what
the five out five in the office workweek looks like. Now.
(13:31):
The opportunity is to make sure that when it's designed,
women are not penalized for taking care of taking advantage
of those benefits and so focusing again on the design piece,
you know, and then again I think that you know,
one of the one of the silver linings I've seen
over the past couple of months is You know, I
think a lot more childless women are really advocating for
(13:53):
themselves because they're seeing that the leverage that they have
in the middle of the Great resignation. So in twenty
two states, women out children are actually making more than
men for the first time. And you know what's happening.
Women are walking in and saying how much does he make?
And I would like that in the corner office. And
so how do they know that getting told the truth?
Because pay transparency in most states is not mandatory. It's
(14:19):
happening though, right, starting to happen, in starting to happen. Yeah,
and in fact I know of it now girls, because
you can't even post a jobs back unless you talk
about what the band is and yeah, yeah, by the way,
why waste everyone's time? Just say how much the job
is and then people can decide, oh, I want to
follow up on this. So no, that's not for me.
It's it's again, it's it's about not being transparent and
(14:40):
not being honest about what someone signing up for, right
even and knowing how that lack of transparency was exacerbating
gender inequality when it came to pay because men had
knowledge and information by their buddies about what they were making,
and we didn't and and and and and we've been
taught to be people pleasers and so we don't ask.
So I think that So I think that there's these
(15:01):
norms that are changing the power dynamic. I think the
hard part and you, I'm sure you appreciate this and
being a mom, is that for moms in America, we've
been so beaten down for so long. Right, it's like
we've been breastfeeding in closets, not showing pictures of our children,
apologizing you know when our kids, you know, are allowed
on an airplane, like basically just hiding our motherhood and
(15:23):
accepting that we'll be penalized if we step out of
the workforce to curetake when we step back in. And
so when you've been treated that way, UM, get building
that sense in people that yes, you can ask for things.
This is really it's really hard for me. But it's
like Stockholm syndrome, you know what I mean, It's like
your condition to a certain minds. So the first thing
(15:45):
that hasn't change the mindset, and the thing is is
we haven't even treated discrimination. We haven't even treated moms
as a protected class you know, you know, you're not
supposed to discriminate against people, you know, Yea or lgbt
Q or you know, Trent, but we've had She never
even admitted that we've been discriminating against moms, even though
(16:05):
the evidence, well, it's a it's a it's an it's
and it's often an unconscious bias as well, because if
you ask most people who are in a position to hire,
and you're like, so if someone disclosed to you and
your first in the first job interview that they were,
you know, in the first timemester of pregnancy, would you
still hire the most of them are going to say,
of course I would. But you know what, I don't
(16:25):
think they would. They wouldn't know that's right. So it's like,
you know, it's it's a very stigmatized position to say, yeah,
I'm biased against moms, but you're it's kind of it's
like the silent bias that's been going on. Well, and
it's funny. I mean, I think the thing is, and
I know this as a CEO that you know, employed
a lot of moms too, it's like, you know, you
(16:46):
you know, once you've employed moms, like even if I
know I'm going to get you at eight percent because
you're gonna be care taking. Your eight percent is better
than someone else's, you know what I mean. So like
I'm gonna hire you, and I think what people fail
to have, like we've never set up, right, it is
our multitasking ability just makes us better employees. And I've
seen that, you know, over a decade in building organizations
(17:07):
and hiring thousands of people. Right who who are the
who are my highest performers? You know, they've always been moms.
So let's talk about the Marshall Plan for Moms. What
which is your new nonprofit? I'm curious what motivated you
to having founded Goals Who Code and being very focused
(17:28):
on that for many is what inspired you to create
the Marshall Plan for Moms? And what does what is
this organization actually going to be doing? Yeah, you know,
I stepped off being CEO Girls Code to build this
organization because I think it is like the next problem
that I am like just laser focused and evangelical about solving.
And that is essentially you know, you know, helping women
(17:50):
in the workforce through advocating for public and private policies.
You know, so we actually have a real chance of
getting to equality. And so what we're focused on now
is really, um, you know probably you know I would
say on one leg it is cultural change. Um, so
you know, I said, well, what was the problem with
girls and coding? It was that coding wasn't cool. And
(18:10):
so ten years later, we've made coding cool and so
so much of that didn't just happen through our programmatic work,
but through our campaigns with dojakat and comedy and books
and now like hashtag women in tech is like the
number one trending thing on TikTok. It's cool to be
a girl coder. You know, if you take that parallel
to now, you know, moms are not respected and valued, right.
(18:32):
Millonia women think that it's essentially sucks to be a
mother in America, and it's true. They're not wrong, they're
not wrong. And if you look at every media representation
of us, right, whether it's in film, whether it's in TV,
whether it's in magazines, I mean, it is not sexy
to be mom. It's not cool to be a mom.
It's not respected to be a mom. And even the
(18:53):
tropes that are out there, you know, mom is super mom.
You know that immediately when you have that out there,
but then moms don't get things, you know, they don't
get help, they don't get support, they don't get paid leave.
So we have to really really change. It needs a rebranding,
and it's true moms, moms in America need a rebrand
and so we are focused on on that. The second
(19:17):
piece is this National Business child Care coldition we're running.
And the third piece goes to what we were talking about,
is how when you have a group of people that
have literally been Stockholm syndrome, that have been so beaten down,
so used to not asking for benefits for themselves, so
discriminated against in the workplace, how do you actually build
an organization in the workplace and start training moms on
(19:41):
how to take that power back and how to ask
for what they need in the workforce. And so that's
a great question. Yeah, and so we're gonna, you know,
we're taking a crack at that which will launch, you know,
in the fall, about what that community looks like, how
what that empowerment looks like. How do we, you know,
how do we start training moms, how do you west
for flexibility, how do you ask for paid leave, how
(20:03):
do you ask for childcare? How do you know? I mean,
how do you make the case? You know what, there's
also the piece which is the people who you're asking
the childcare from the people who are asking the race
from the people who you're going to and saying I
need flexible work environment. Those are the people who need
(20:23):
an education as well. Those are the people who need
a perspective shift. And I think there's a big educational
piece that needs to happen there that is absolutely right.
And listen, this is what I saw at with girls
who code. I would go into male engineering company like
go into Google, Microsoft, and I would make the case.
Right now, It's like you, there is actually no or
(20:43):
there wasn't an organization that was sitting in the workplace
since that was actually going and making the case. And
so we're still having old conversations. We're still having to
prove why is diversity inclusion better? Why should I hire
a woman? Are you fucking kidding me? How times do
we have to show you that? I'm not having that
conversation with you anymore. What I'm going to have with
(21:05):
you now is how do you do that? Yeah? I
mean the actual practical tools that we can look at
me and saying I just don't know. I know, we
just have this cliff after age thirty five. And what
they really want to say is, well, it's because when
when we have kids and they want to be with
their kids. Like I could tell you this mom, that
is not true, you know what I mean, But I don't.
I can't have it be so hard that it is,
(21:27):
you know, um, hurting my mental health. Yeah, I mean,
rush my listen. I founded a company called go Gaze,
which is a tech platform that connects yeah you know
about it, that connects female, non binary trans women with
paid creative jobs. And you know, for all the companies
that said that they cared about representation and you know, inclusion,
(21:49):
we went to every single one of those companies that
put their hand up and said we care about women
of color, we care about diversity, and you know what,
I think two of them signed up. And it is
That's the painful reality is that when you give people
people pay good lip service, but when you give them
an actual tool and you say, hey, I've got a
solution for you. It's very simple. You just need to
sign up, You get a subscription, and you can actually
(22:10):
have access to all those people you say you want
to hire because you understand why the workforce needs to
be representative of real life. When you give them that tool,
a lot of them find a million reasons why they
can't do it, because ultimately the infrastructure within those companies
does not want change. And that for me has been
the frustration being the CEO and founder of a company
that built a tool that can help create real, tangible change.
(22:34):
And so I'm curious, like where do you Where do
you get your um where do you get your determination?
Where do you get your resilience? Like how do you
keep going with this? Because I know for me I
definitely get beaten down by and feel like, wow, this
is exhausting. This I want to talk about the same
stuff ten years later here You're right, listen, I'm sometimes
(22:56):
I'm shocked that I'm here building martial plan because you know,
part of the reason why I got frustrated girls who
code after ten years was like you told me that
you would have that you the only reason why you
weren't hiring was because you didn't have them. And then
I taught four hundred fifty girls and old color, and
then you refuse to hire them even though qualified than
(23:16):
the people you did hire, and so you know, the
takeaway that I've had was essentially like, when a company
is built without us, it's really hard to get them
to let us in. So you can say, we'll learn that,
and so what the hell are you doing now? You're like,
basically have a similar thesis, And yes, it's this. It's
a struggle. I it's where I'm at with with my
(23:36):
company with go Gies, where I'm like, I I've created
the solution and I still can't get you to jump.
So what do I do here? Yeah? But so now
here's the why I think this is like two point oh,
because now it's about these women are there, they're in
the company, they've got they've gotten hired. Now they're being
pushed out because they don't have So now if you
(23:58):
actually can put in I think some of these policies
and start having inside the company um having basically a
structure there that is like again not a distraction, but
a focus really on the outcome, I think maybe we
can actually have more change. We just gotta tried, we
(24:21):
gotta try different entry points. We were always focused on pipeline, right,
and we're like, oh, now, but some people are going
to get in. But the problem is that they don't
get in and they're gonna get pushed out. Yeah, that's
what I was focused on, is pipeline and yeah, yeah,
and that's this this other piece, you know, this other piece,
Where does your desire to create such positive change come
(24:43):
from you as a daughter of refugees. I don't know,
you know, I you know, I'm I'm him there. They say,
you know you're putting this earth to do something. I
just was. I was put in the search to fight.
I can't. Like I am up at night just thinking
about these things. And I think in many ways, if
I didn't have, if I wasn't able to channel it
(25:05):
into this, i'd be I'd be super anxious. And so
I'm able or super just, I don't know, angry, frustrated.
So I'm able to channel the injustice that I see
in the world into change, and I'm able to kind
of break it down a little bit, right. And I
think the other thing is like now that I'm you know,
(25:27):
I'm forty six, I you know, I built my unicorn,
I don't give a funk anymore. I've got no one
to impress, nothing to prove, nothing. And I also see
it like, you know, I realized I'm like, oh my God,
like I'm gonna be marching my whole life. Yeah, I know,
I feel the same way as you like it. So
(25:49):
you know, I might as well as go to this
yoga class. Yeah, I might as well as so take
a beach, right, because it's a long term fight, But
I am always spoiling for a fight even that put
your energy and your focus towards tangible change. Yeah. Who
(26:10):
are the voices that carry you? Who are the voices
that inspire you? Think you look to that you that
you know are role models in some capacity. I mean
Hillary Clinton has always been a role model for me.
She's always been so I've known since I was like
eighteen nineties. She is like the voice of truth. She's
always been right on everything, you know. I also really
in this moment as we're talking about Roe v. Wade,
(26:30):
you know Cecil Richards, you know Kanji Jackson, who is
about to bear a new Supreme Court justice, and a
friend of mine. All my girls were code in my
I mean, I believe in the next generation, like I am.
Like these young they're so smart and they're so they
see it, they see us. They're not distracted by shiny things.
(26:53):
They are not distracted by corporate feminism, thank god, thank
god I call them. I call it faul feminist, you know,
like the Faul feminist culture. So you know, for me,
so much of my work is just making sure that
I amplify and create space and inspire that next generation. Well,
you certainly are, and I'm really excited to see what
(27:16):
you do with the Marshall Plan for moms. And if
there's any way that I can be of service or
be of a support in any way, just call on me.
I will for sure. Thing is great talking to you,
and don't listen. I think things are going to get
really really intense in the next couple of weeks, and
I think they are, and I think I do hope
(27:37):
and I actually want to see a lot more rage
coming from women and it will take us, I think,
to where we need to get to, like and to
finish this fight once and for all. Rushima. We could
do a whole interview about women's rage and my feelings
about that, and it's a subject that I talk about
a lot. And um, I don't disagree with you. I
(27:58):
think I'll culture, uh, we'll try to shut us down
really fast if we get too loud and to rage full.
But you know there's no reason that we should be
shut down because you're right. The next few weeks is
going to be bringing a lot, a lot forward. Yep,
that's talking to you, you two. Thank you so much
you have been listening to VS Voices. My thanks to
(28:20):
today's guests Rashma, so Johnny. If you love our show,
please comment, like, and subscribe to wherever you listen to
your favorite podcasts, and as always, please follow me Amandit
Academy on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
(28:43):
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue and raise the game. Thank you are listening.
My guest today is an amazing woman. Her name is
Rushma so Johnny. She's an author and activist who founded
Girls Who Code. But these days, Rushma is hard at
work with her new not for profit Martial Plan for
Moms that seeks to help mothers re enter the workforce
in the aftermath of the COVID nineteen pandemic. Rushma is
also the author of a new book called Pay Up,
(00:20):
The Future of Women in Work and Why It's different
than you think. All right, so let's talk about your
new book, pay Up The Future of Women in Work,
and God knows there's an important conversation that needs to
be had around women in the workplace. Why did you
write this book now? And if you could, please give
our read our listeners just an overview of what the
(00:41):
book is about. Yeah, I mean I wrote Pay Up
because women are in crisis, and you know, the only
way out is to transform our workplaces. It's been two
years since the pandemic and today we're still missing one
point one million women from a labor force. You know,
women of color have especially been hit the hardest. Right now,
one out of three women are considering leaving their jobs,
(01:03):
and of mothers say that they're anxious and depressed. And
even if you you know, put all the statistics aside,
like the past two years have just crushed moms and
the problems that we know have been facing living in
a country that doesn't have paid leave or affordable childcare
or parental income you know, or even you know, support
(01:24):
for flexibility, Like these are things that have been brewing
for decades and COVID just exacerbated them. Yeah, I was
gonna say, these are these are istues that have been
around for a really long time, but COVID has accelerated
the need for more support and you know the things
that you mentioned. So ultimately, when you're saying one in
(01:46):
three moms are thinking about what leaving the workforce, I
guess my question is, you know, being able to leave
the workforce means you're not going to We're not going
to have income. So what's the thinking behind wanting to leave?
It's just too much, it's too overwhelming. If you have
a child and you are thinking of leaving the workforce,
(02:08):
how are people going to support themselves? Yeah, it's a
great question, and I think the numbers are actually one
third are either leaving the workforce or changing their jobs,
and I think what you've seen, you're right. We live
in a country, United States where people have to work.
You know, this isn't the nineteen fifties where you even
could stay at home. It's just way too expensive to live.
And so what you're what a lot of women had
(02:29):
to do because of the pandemic was essentially because their caretaking.
You know, two thirds of caretaking is done by women,
whether that's children or elderly care, you know, because they
were the ones doing the homeschooling, because they're the ones
that are taking care of our kids that are in
the middle of a mental health crisis. Many women are,
you know, are down shifting their jobs. So if they're
working full time now they're working part time. If they
(02:51):
were working in an industry that didn't offer a lot
of flexibility, they're working in another industry that does. And
so they're having to essentially supplement a lot of their
paid labor for unpaid labor. And this is why it
feels like we're in this never ending you know, chase
towards equality, you know, whether it's equality in the boardroom,
equality and mainstream of quality with women starting their businesses.
(03:12):
Because women have been in this constant conflict of having
to negotiate being a mother and negotiate having a job,
and it's never ever ever worked, and so we're constantly
having to make trade offs. And you know, a mom
will always choose her child over her job. Well, the
problem is is that something always suffers. There is no way.
(03:35):
I was a mother at age nineteen and again I
had twins, you know, fourteen years latest. I've been a
mom my whole working adult life. Actually, um so I have.
I forgot many years of experience of what you're describing
with managing, you know, a full time career and parenting children.
(03:57):
And the truth is is that something has to stuffer.
There is no way that you can be present for
your job and present for your kids, um, and take
care of yourself um equally. At the same time. It's always,
for me at least, been about moving around where the
impact is. Okay, my kids, UM, let me, they've been
getting more of me. Maybe I can take a little
(04:17):
bit more time away from them and give it to
my work. Okay, my work, you know is suffering that
needs more time. It's just moving the impact around. We say,
it's like it's like a constant game of tetris. Yes,
it really is. Really you're and you're never you're just
exhausted because you've let somebody down or you let yourself down, right,
and you're you're constantly feeling like it's never enough. So
(04:40):
what's the solution though, because you know, I when I
hear you talking, I'm thinking, Okay, is the solution for
us to leave the workforce? Because ultimately right, So what
is the solution? What? What do you talk about in
the book, Well, here's the problem. Well, the way that
we were navigating this was putting it on women. So
we would literally say to women, you know, I was
(05:01):
I did this. I'd be in the pain. You know.
I'd be in a giving a talk and a young
woman to raise her hand and she'd say, Mr Johnny,
Mr Johnny, like, how do you balance being a CEO
and a mom? And I may have just come from
the green room like breastfeeding my son, and I'd literally
waved my hand and say, don't worry about it, just
just keep working hard. And so I was taught that
the problem is not the workforce. The problem is me.
(05:24):
I need to try harder, I need to lean in more,
I need to do a power pose I need to
find a mentor. I need to read another book about confidence, right,
I need to fix myself, lean in until you completely
collapse and full over that. Like you know, girl boss
culture was really really, really toxic and harmful because we
thought that this was an individual problem. And the Instagram
(05:44):
didn't help because you think, well, this is just me,
Like man, I look at her and she's just balancing
having a job and having a kid and having a
dog and having an It's dishonest. It's dishonest. People aren't
honest about the reality of what's going on because I
don't know one woman who has you know, who's working,
who has a family that is you know, is skipping
through the fields. I don't know anybody. It's just that
(06:06):
most people don't want to admit how they are struggling
with it. And I think fundamentally we're doing women a
disturvice to not be honest about what what the reality is.
Absolutely and I think that when we were focused on
and fixing the woman, and I would say, and not
fixing the structure. So I think the solution is this,
We've never lived in a place where we actually gave
(06:28):
women a fair chance to succeed in the workplace because
we've built workplaces for men who had no no caregiving responsibilities,
and we should have built them for women. I always argue, like,
you should always build things around the most vulnerable, and
the most vulnerable person in our workforce is a single woman,
you know, a woman of color who doesn't have a
(06:48):
lot of support, And so what does the workplace look
like when it's built for her to succeed and thrive?
And so that means you know, one and that these
are the things that some of the things I talked
about my book is like, you know, living in a
world that offers paid leave. You know, most women go
back to work ten days after having even if you
had a c section, so you're physically healed or mentally recovered,
(07:10):
and you're thrown back into the workforce. Well, that does
not lead to you maybe long term success right or
or or stability. And so we pay leave. You know,
we need to have affordable childcare. Part of this, like
and you know, childcare, chocolate, chocolate. It's the biggest reason
why women are down shifting their careers or moving in
and out of the workforce. Childcare. You're paying most of
(07:32):
your income on childcat you're paying to work. Yeah, you're
working to work. Period. Most of us right now, even
in a you know, even in a middle middle class
income SA are working to work. And then you're exhausted
and you're angry, and you're young at your kids and
you're feeling you know what I mean, and they're just like,
why am I doing this? And what are my options?
(07:54):
But ultimately, what you're talking about when you're saying that
a lot of women are going back have to go
back to what ten days off they've given both without
paid um, you know, without paid leave, even if they've
had a c section. Advocating for paid leave, especially off
you've had a c section and you have a new bone,
is just basic human rights. It's human rights. But we
(08:17):
haven't had basic human rights in the world, I know, right,
And I think about I always say, like, you know, listen,
think about pregnancy. Like the most vestigatory woman I knew
hid their pregnancy to the very last second. I can't
tell you how many times I've been in zoom and
women are now able to wait eight nine months, right like, oh,
by the way, did I tell you, Like, I'm having
a baby in two weeks? And we think that that's normal.
(08:41):
And no one, no one, even the person who was
receiving this information isn't like, oh, well, what is it
about this workplace that I've created that you feel like
you have to wait till the last possible second to
tell me that you're having a baby. And so this
that's the implicit deal that we've had to make to work,
and we've tolerated it, and we've not think basically just
not even thought that there's anything wrong with it. And
(09:04):
so that, to me is such a great example of
how how messed up it is and how broken it is. Well,
it is broken, but how do we fix something that
has been Like you said, it was not built for
us and we know what it takes to change infrastructure
that is built to serve not our agenda, um, not
(09:24):
not people who can buff and who are mothering. So
how can we fix this because it's no, it's no
small feet. And I hear you talk and I'm like, yes,
these are old, great ideas, Rashima, but actually how do
we do them? How? So let's let's start with the childcare.
I mean, we just launched a national Business Childcare Coalition
to get companies to start subsidizing chalkcare. Companies pay for IVF,
(09:46):
they pay for our museum memberships and or gym memberships.
They should be paying for Chulker because Choldker is an
economic issue, and you know, we've got a lot of
companies to sign up. It's actually shockingly not as controversial
as I thought. I think the reality though, is that
we have to make it clear as workers men, you know,
both both you know, men and women, that this is
something that we need. Just like I'm not going to
(10:08):
go work for a company that doesn't provide some sort
of healthcare, not going to work for a company doesn't
provide some sort of childcare benefit. You know, this will
this will exclude a lot of small If a company
has to provide pay you know, has to pay contribute
to childcare, it's going to exclude a lot of small
companies from being able to offer that because they just
(10:28):
don't have the financial wherewithal to be able to do that.
So does it limit somebody that they have to go
work for a more more established company. Ye, No, I
think that I think that you've seen so I think
the way that we think about this is like the
struggles that hourly workers have versus you know, salaried workers.
So for a lot of people, they work for small
businesses right or their hourly workers. And so you know,
(10:52):
what are the different ways that you can actually support
people with childcare there? And you know, when we did
a survey with McKenzie, a lot of people said, well,
you know what I need is just predictability or flexibility
in my schedule. So if I got to leave because
my kids daycare center has a COVID outbreak, you know
I got to run out of the office. I shouldn't
get fired for that. You know, I should get the
grace of being able to have flexibility in my schedule, predictability,
(11:18):
basic humanity. But it doesn't. But it's not happening right
now right now. I know, I'm just saying how ludicrous
it is. Ultimately, Rushma, what we're talking about is like
basic human rights and humanity and the fact that in
two we're just talking about those things as being things
that we should expect and we should demand. It's shocking
(11:38):
to me that we're still having this discussion at this
stage of the game. But you know, it's but you know,
I think it's also though very wild, is we haven't
really been having this conversation we were focusing. We were
actually like lied to and talk about like corporate feminism.
We were basically bought into this big lie. And what
the conversation I don't know about you, but I was
having was like, how do I get a mentor, how
do I get a sponsor? How do I learned how
(11:59):
to raise my hand? How do I learn that skills?
It was all about I was the problem. Yeah, well
it's so, it's very true. I think now the opportunity
is now, I see I always say, now, I see
that actually cancel all the women's empowerment series that you
have and solely focus as a company, and how you're
going to change your corporate policies to basically make it
(12:21):
possible for women to work and have kids. So that
means auditing your pay leave policies, auditing your benefits packages,
you know, designing hybrid work so you don't penalize women
who take advantage of flexibility like and and the ten
other things that I'm not even thinking about, right, But actually,
what I hear you saying is corporate feminism and that
whole uh, you know, that whole lie that you said
(12:45):
we were sold it's actually been a great distraction from
the real issues, which is what we're talking about here.
That's right, and I think it's a great way of
putting it. It's been a great distraction. So even though
we're like, oh my god, this is when I talk
about it's like it's like I'm like talking about unicorns. People, Well,
is this really going to happen? And I'm like, wait
a minute, Actually, I actually think that this can happen.
(13:08):
I don't think it's so crazy because I do think
that we're living in a moment Like listen, even right now,
you know, for months and months and months and all
this resistance to flexibility and remote work, and now like
you know, like employees are are literally rioting. They're like,
we are not coming back five days a week. So
I think we're like winning the battle in changing what
the five out five in the office workweek looks like. Now.
(13:31):
The opportunity is to make sure that when it's designed,
women are not penalized for taking care of taking advantage
of those benefits and so focusing again on the design piece,
you know, and then again I think that you know,
one of the one of the silver linings I've seen
over the past couple of months is You know, I
think a lot more childless women are really advocating for
(13:53):
themselves because they're seeing that the leverage that they have
in the middle of the Great resignation. So in twenty
two states, women out children are actually making more than
men for the first time. And you know what's happening.
Women are walking in and saying how much does he make?
And I would like that in the corner office. And
so how do they know that getting told the truth?
Because pay transparency in most states is not mandatory. It's
(14:19):
happening though, right, starting to happen, in starting to happen. Yeah,
and in fact I know of it now girls, because
you can't even post a jobs back unless you talk
about what the band is and yeah, yeah, by the way,
why waste everyone's time? Just say how much the job
is and then people can decide, oh, I want to
follow up on this. So no, that's not for me.
It's it's again, it's it's about not being transparent and
(14:40):
not being honest about what someone signing up for, right
even and knowing how that lack of transparency was exacerbating
gender inequality when it came to pay because men had
knowledge and information by their buddies about what they were making,
and we didn't and and and and and we've been
taught to be people pleasers and so we don't ask.
So I think that So I think that there's these
(15:01):
norms that are changing the power dynamic. I think the
hard part and you, I'm sure you appreciate this and
being a mom, is that for moms in America, we've
been so beaten down for so long. Right, it's like
we've been breastfeeding in closets, not showing pictures of our children,
apologizing you know when our kids, you know, are allowed
on an airplane, like basically just hiding our motherhood and
(15:23):
accepting that we'll be penalized if we step out of
the workforce to curetake when we step back in. And
so when you've been treated that way, UM, get building
that sense in people that yes, you can ask for things.
This is really it's really hard for me. But it's
like Stockholm syndrome, you know what I mean, It's like
your condition to a certain minds. So the first thing
(15:45):
that hasn't change the mindset, and the thing is is
we haven't even treated discrimination. We haven't even treated moms
as a protected class you know, you know, you're not
supposed to discriminate against people, you know, Yea or lgbt
Q or you know, Trent, but we've had She never
even admitted that we've been discriminating against moms, even though
(16:05):
the evidence, well, it's a it's a it's an it's
and it's often an unconscious bias as well, because if
you ask most people who are in a position to hire,
and you're like, so if someone disclosed to you and
your first in the first job interview that they were,
you know, in the first timemester of pregnancy, would you
still hire the most of them are going to say,
of course I would. But you know what, I don't
(16:25):
think they would. They wouldn't know that's right. So it's like,
you know, it's it's a very stigmatized position to say, yeah,
I'm biased against moms, but you're it's kind of it's
like the silent bias that's been going on. Well, and
it's funny. I mean, I think the thing is, and
I know this as a CEO that you know, employed
a lot of moms too, it's like, you know, you
(16:46):
you know, once you've employed moms, like even if I
know I'm going to get you at eight percent because
you're gonna be care taking. Your eight percent is better
than someone else's, you know what I mean. So like
I'm gonna hire you, and I think what people fail
to have, like we've never set up, right, it is
our multitasking ability just makes us better employees. And I've
seen that, you know, over a decade in building organizations
(17:07):
and hiring thousands of people. Right who who are the
who are my highest performers? You know, they've always been moms.
So let's talk about the Marshall Plan for Moms. What
which is your new nonprofit? I'm curious what motivated you
to having founded Goals Who Code and being very focused
(17:28):
on that for many is what inspired you to create
the Marshall Plan for Moms? And what does what is
this organization actually going to be doing? Yeah, you know,
I stepped off being CEO Girls Code to build this
organization because I think it is like the next problem
that I am like just laser focused and evangelical about solving.
And that is essentially you know, you know, helping women
(17:50):
in the workforce through advocating for public and private policies.
You know, so we actually have a real chance of
getting to equality. And so what we're focused on now
is really, um, you know probably you know I would
say on one leg it is cultural change. Um, so
you know, I said, well, what was the problem with
girls and coding? It was that coding wasn't cool. And
(18:10):
so ten years later, we've made coding cool and so
so much of that didn't just happen through our programmatic work,
but through our campaigns with dojakat and comedy and books
and now like hashtag women in tech is like the
number one trending thing on TikTok. It's cool to be
a girl coder. You know, if you take that parallel
to now, you know, moms are not respected and valued, right.
(18:32):
Millonia women think that it's essentially sucks to be a
mother in America, and it's true. They're not wrong, they're
not wrong. And if you look at every media representation
of us, right, whether it's in film, whether it's in TV,
whether it's in magazines, I mean, it is not sexy
to be mom. It's not cool to be a mom.
It's not respected to be a mom. And even the
(18:53):
tropes that are out there, you know, mom is super mom.
You know that immediately when you have that out there,
but then moms don't get things, you know, they don't
get help, they don't get support, they don't get paid leave.
So we have to really really change. It needs a rebranding,
and it's true moms, moms in America need a rebrand
and so we are focused on on that. The second
(19:17):
piece is this National Business child Care coldition we're running.
And the third piece goes to what we were talking about,
is how when you have a group of people that
have literally been Stockholm syndrome, that have been so beaten down,
so used to not asking for benefits for themselves, so
discriminated against in the workplace, how do you actually build
an organization in the workplace and start training moms on
(19:41):
how to take that power back and how to ask
for what they need in the workforce. And so that's
a great question. Yeah, and so we're gonna, you know,
we're taking a crack at that which will launch, you know,
in the fall, about what that community looks like, how
what that empowerment looks like. How do we, you know,
how do we start training moms, how do you west
for flexibility, how do you ask for paid leave, how
(20:03):
do you ask for childcare? How do you know? I mean,
how do you make the case? You know what, there's
also the piece which is the people who you're asking
the childcare from the people who are asking the race
from the people who you're going to and saying I
need flexible work environment. Those are the people who need
(20:23):
an education as well. Those are the people who need
a perspective shift. And I think there's a big educational
piece that needs to happen there that is absolutely right.
And listen, this is what I saw at with girls
who code. I would go into male engineering company like
go into Google, Microsoft, and I would make the case.
Right now, It's like you, there is actually no or
(20:43):
there wasn't an organization that was sitting in the workplace
since that was actually going and making the case. And
so we're still having old conversations. We're still having to
prove why is diversity inclusion better? Why should I hire
a woman? Are you fucking kidding me? How times do
we have to show you that? I'm not having that
conversation with you anymore. What I'm going to have with
(21:05):
you now is how do you do that? Yeah? I
mean the actual practical tools that we can look at
me and saying I just don't know. I know, we
just have this cliff after age thirty five. And what
they really want to say is, well, it's because when
when we have kids and they want to be with
their kids. Like I could tell you this mom, that
is not true, you know what I mean, But I don't.
I can't have it be so hard that it is,
(21:27):
you know, um, hurting my mental health. Yeah, I mean,
rush my listen. I founded a company called go Gaze,
which is a tech platform that connects yeah you know
about it, that connects female, non binary trans women with
paid creative jobs. And you know, for all the companies
that said that they cared about representation and you know, inclusion,
(21:49):
we went to every single one of those companies that
put their hand up and said we care about women
of color, we care about diversity, and you know what,
I think two of them signed up. And it is
That's the painful reality is that when you give people
people pay good lip service, but when you give them
an actual tool and you say, hey, I've got a
solution for you. It's very simple. You just need to
sign up, You get a subscription, and you can actually
(22:10):
have access to all those people you say you want
to hire because you understand why the workforce needs to
be representative of real life. When you give them that tool,
a lot of them find a million reasons why they
can't do it, because ultimately the infrastructure within those companies
does not want change. And that for me has been
the frustration being the CEO and founder of a company
that built a tool that can help create real, tangible change.
(22:34):
And so I'm curious, like where do you Where do
you get your um where do you get your determination?
Where do you get your resilience? Like how do you
keep going with this? Because I know for me I
definitely get beaten down by and feel like, wow, this
is exhausting. This I want to talk about the same
stuff ten years later here You're right, listen, I'm sometimes
(22:56):
I'm shocked that I'm here building martial plan because you know,
part of the reason why I got frustrated girls who
code after ten years was like you told me that
you would have that you the only reason why you
weren't hiring was because you didn't have them. And then
I taught four hundred fifty girls and old color, and
then you refuse to hire them even though qualified than
(23:16):
the people you did hire, and so you know, the
takeaway that I've had was essentially like, when a company
is built without us, it's really hard to get them
to let us in. So you can say, we'll learn that,
and so what the hell are you doing now? You're like,
basically have a similar thesis, And yes, it's this. It's
a struggle. I it's where I'm at with with my
(23:36):
company with go Gies, where I'm like, I I've created
the solution and I still can't get you to jump.
So what do I do here? Yeah? But so now
here's the why I think this is like two point oh,
because now it's about these women are there, they're in
the company, they've got they've gotten hired. Now they're being
pushed out because they don't have So now if you
(23:58):
actually can put in I think some of these policies
and start having inside the company um having basically a
structure there that is like again not a distraction, but
a focus really on the outcome, I think maybe we
can actually have more change. We just gotta tried, we
(24:21):
gotta try different entry points. We were always focused on pipeline, right,
and we're like, oh, now, but some people are going
to get in. But the problem is that they don't
get in and they're gonna get pushed out. Yeah, that's
what I was focused on, is pipeline and yeah, yeah,
and that's this this other piece, you know, this other piece,
Where does your desire to create such positive change come
(24:43):
from you as a daughter of refugees. I don't know,
you know, I you know, I'm I'm him there. They say,
you know you're putting this earth to do something. I
just was. I was put in the search to fight.
I can't. Like I am up at night just thinking
about these things. And I think in many ways, if
I didn't have, if I wasn't able to channel it
(25:05):
into this, i'd be I'd be super anxious. And so
I'm able or super just, I don't know, angry, frustrated.
So I'm able to channel the injustice that I see
in the world into change, and I'm able to kind
of break it down a little bit, right. And I
think the other thing is like now that I'm you know,
(25:27):
I'm forty six, I you know, I built my unicorn,
I don't give a funk anymore. I've got no one
to impress, nothing to prove, nothing. And I also see
it like, you know, I realized I'm like, oh my God,
like I'm gonna be marching my whole life. Yeah, I know,
I feel the same way as you like it. So
(25:49):
you know, I might as well as go to this
yoga class. Yeah, I might as well as so take
a beach, right, because it's a long term fight, But
I am always spoiling for a fight even that put
your energy and your focus towards tangible change. Yeah. Who
(26:10):
are the voices that carry you? Who are the voices
that inspire you? Think you look to that you that
you know are role models in some capacity. I mean
Hillary Clinton has always been a role model for me.
She's always been so I've known since I was like
eighteen nineties. She is like the voice of truth. She's
always been right on everything, you know. I also really
in this moment as we're talking about Roe v. Wade,
(26:30):
you know Cecil Richards, you know Kanji Jackson, who is
about to bear a new Supreme Court justice, and a
friend of mine. All my girls were code in my
I mean, I believe in the next generation, like I am.
Like these young they're so smart and they're so they
see it, they see us. They're not distracted by shiny things.
(26:53):
They are not distracted by corporate feminism, thank god, thank
god I call them. I call it faul feminist, you know,
like the Faul feminist culture. So you know, for me,
so much of my work is just making sure that
I amplify and create space and inspire that next generation. Well,
you certainly are, and I'm really excited to see what
(27:16):
you do with the Marshall Plan for moms. And if
there's any way that I can be of service or
be of a support in any way, just call on me.
I will for sure. Thing is great talking to you,
and don't listen. I think things are going to get
really really intense in the next couple of weeks, and
I think they are, and I think I do hope
(27:37):
and I actually want to see a lot more rage
coming from women and it will take us, I think,
to where we need to get to, like and to
finish this fight once and for all. Rushima. We could
do a whole interview about women's rage and my feelings
about that, and it's a subject that I talk about
a lot. And um, I don't disagree with you. I
(27:58):
think I'll culture, uh, we'll try to shut us down
really fast if we get too loud and to rage full.
But you know there's no reason that we should be
shut down because you're right. The next few weeks is
going to be bringing a lot, a lot forward. Yep,
that's talking to you, you two. Thank you so much
you have been listening to VS Voices. My thanks to
(28:20):
today's guests Rashma, so Johnny. If you love our show,
please comment, like, and subscribe to wherever you listen to
your favorite podcasts, and as always, please follow me Amandit
Academy on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
(28:43):
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue and raise the game. Thank you are listening.
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