Between Contractions

It’s getting close to the big day for Jana and Mike, and the pressure is on! Jana is hyper focused on what might be contractions, and she addresses an uncomfortable and unusual question about childbirth.  Psychologist Hillary Goldsher (www.drhillarygoldsher.com) is in studio to help address Jana’s struggles with anxiety. She gives both Jana and Mike some incredibly helpful tools for dealing with the attacks, and Mike gets honest with Jana about his difficulty with managing her anxiety. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer, an impart radio podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
We're still here, somehow, someway, We're still here.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
The baby's still in my belly for now, for now,
I mean as Sarah isn't a studio, our beloved Sarah
Cruise is in the studio for me, or as I
like to call her, Sarah Gretzky. That's what I have
you as on my phone.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
I know.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
But she just felt my contraction because I was trying.
I was like, I'm having a contraction. I'm having a contraction,
and you felt the difference.

Speaker 5 (00:37):
Yeah, but it's freaking me out.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
You're gonna be okay.

Speaker 5 (00:42):
I don't know. I've been so stressed the last week.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
But I feel like, why do people get so freaked
out about because I know a few of the people
that are so freaked about babies and bellies, like even
you like to this morning when I put your hand
on me, I was like, oh my god, feel this
I feeling.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's not as bad as when you see it and
looks like an alien coming out of it.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
Really was like that is he like this pumping me?

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:03):
Literally? Yeah. I think it's when you can't relate, like
when you talk to try and talk to guys about
like a period, you know, no, Like that's why it
freaks me out because I can't really like because I don't.
I didn't pay attention And.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Do you want to you want to be a mom though?

Speaker 5 (01:16):
Oh obviously yeah, But like I just it's just it
went from like soft and then it got hard and
then I'm afraid you're going to pee it out?

Speaker 3 (01:25):
That's right? Remember weird? Oh God, Sarah and I went
to remember when we went to Vegas that was so
much fun Heart Radio Festival, and.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
She goes, I was just tak care of her daughter.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
You were on a golf trip. Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Want to hear it?

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, with your dad, that's right. So no, you weren't
home taking care of the kid.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
A very expensive golf trip.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah. And so but Sarah is like just standing out
the window. I thought she was going to have something
like really just like special to say I was.

Speaker 5 (01:58):
I was literally, No, you went to the bathroom and
then you came out, and while you were in there,
I was just thinking.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, and this is what this is a thought that
came to Sarah's brain. Would you like to say, ut mes,
do you actually want to resay what you said, or I.

Speaker 5 (02:09):
Mean, I literally stand by it. I was curious if
you ever felt or if someone has ever pooped out
their baby.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
What And that's exactly my response back, what why would
you think you can't poop? First of all, your hole,
your poop hole is different than your vaginal.

Speaker 5 (02:27):
I understand that. However, it's all just I don't know.
You're squatting. Things are happening. Don't you like pee yourself
sometimes and you don't.

Speaker 6 (02:33):
Know, well.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Sometimes, yeah, that can happen.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
I just didn't know, you know, saying it's all attached,
So I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
So like when I'm so like when I'm pushing like
out my poop, you're afraid that I'm gonna push my
baby out?

Speaker 6 (02:46):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (02:47):
No, Mark, why are you nodding head over there?

Speaker 1 (02:49):
I just see what she's saying. That's all I'm trying
to think, because I get it.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, you're using the same muscles to push out your
poop and your baby. Well, isn't it like not your
babies can come through your hiking up?

Speaker 3 (03:00):
She literally just put her leg on.

Speaker 5 (03:02):
I just feel like it's like ready position.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
I mean, he is had down.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
There's news reports of women giving birth and bathroom stalls.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
I assume that's what happened.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
They pushed too hard.

Speaker 5 (03:12):
I mean, you're a lot stronger than you think.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
It is true.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
That is true.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
You know what I would love if you pooped out
your baby. That would be great. I just think that
would be just a great three sixty karma. I mean
switching gears.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
It's obviously been a total devastation here in California with
the wildfires, and our hearts go out to all the
family members and the houses and just everything that Northern
California and here in southern California that you know, people
have been dealing with the fires. Sarah has an interesting
story that happened to her regarding the fires.

Speaker 5 (03:45):
Yeah, it was crazy. So the night before was actually
the shooting up Orlin, which is I can't even devastating, but.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
I live there. The shooter lived a block away from No.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, so ty well, boyfriend, So did you ever know
did you ever meet.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Him or never met him and didn't know his mom
or anything? But I know the house, like when I
saw the house, like, oh yeah, walk past that house
walking my dog every single day.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
Oh my god, I haven't seen the news around the parents,
how were they did?

Speaker 1 (04:16):
The main thing with this guy seems to be although
now high school friends if they're saying he was aggressive
in high school, but a lot of people as saying
that he was a marine and when he got back
he was not the same anymore. And we all know
that different people react differently to the shovel of trauma.
And he was infantry like machine gun, hamler like he
was in it. Yeah, So I don't know how much
you blame the mom how much? Like I think there's
a natural instinct to blame him or the mom or

(04:37):
somebody or society or whatever it is. I don't know
who to blame in this situation.

Speaker 5 (04:41):
It's just sad.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
It's just so sad all around.

Speaker 5 (04:44):
Said, Yeah, but ties from there and his family lives there.
So the night before we woke up to I mean,
I had fifteen miss calls he had and you pan it.
I mean, I don't now, I know what my mom
would always say, like, you know, when you get a
phone call in the middle of the night, she's just
never and I'm like, who could be what could be
going on? And it was his mom calling us, you know,
are you okay? As everyone okay telling us about the shooting.

(05:05):
And then the next night we wake up again just
so many phone calls and our dogs are going crazy.
And then I started freaking out. I'm like, is there
an earthquake? What's going on? And I go to our
front door and his whole family is there.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Wayne Gretzky is standing out the front.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
Yes, his whole family showed up to our apartment, which
is not very big, and they're like, we had to
evacuate the fun and it was just like, oh, it's
just so much, and it's one of those things where
you never think it could happen, and then all of
a sudden, like, I'm making coffee. It was three day out.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Did how does Wayne Gretzky like his coffee?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
He?

Speaker 5 (05:35):
Oh, my god, So.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
You have to make him breakfast? Do know?

Speaker 5 (05:41):
They were actually the best because Ty and I were like, uh,
make yourselves at home.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
By the way, it wasn't just Wayne, it was it was.

Speaker 5 (05:47):
Wayne and his mom and his two little siblings and
his uncle and the tennis coach. And so we show
up in the morning and they all they were like,
we had to evacuate. We got on the road, we
got out of there, and so I made them coffee.
He liked it with half in half, but I accidentally
put in sweet cream.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Dare you?

Speaker 5 (06:07):
He literally he goes, this is the best coffee ever.
And Janet goes, what did you put in it? And
I go sweet cream and she goes, well, the way
that's why it was like, he goes, I said half
in half, and I was like, yeah, I don't know
if you we have nothing, and I mean, we're never
we don't have anything, but they were so I mean
we were like, okay, we went back to sleep, and

(06:28):
then we woke up and his mom got us flowers
and like she stalked our fridge, and I was like, really,
I know, but I'm like, you guys are the one. Like,
I mean, they didn't sleep at all. They stayed up
all night watching the news tracking it because they couldn't
even they couldn't even think. And and then of course
they're just you know, parents, and their house is fine.
They're okay, they've been there.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Were about their neighborhood. We've been that any house in
that neighborhood.

Speaker 5 (06:51):
No, but it was crazy. His brother was putting up videos.
So remember the lake. I don't know if you guys
saw the lake. Did you see So they were getting
helicopters were going in there getting water.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, the big long tubes.

Speaker 5 (07:02):
And it was crazy because his brother was like documenting
it on Instagram all you know, all day Wow, but
it was crazy. But it changes so much. But I'm
pretty sure, Yeah, everything lifted and they're fine to be
there now.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
I felt like, i mean, even with just the shooting
and the fires, I felt so helpless, like not being
able to do something like I wanted to be able to.

Speaker 5 (07:22):
It's the worst we were talking.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
I mean, I know, yeah you came over right there,
Yeah you were Yeah, you came over that next morning
and I was like, man, I know, I'm like ten
months pregnant basically, but I wish I could go help
put out fires. But you just kind of feel so
helpless sitting in your cozy little home. Yeah, Christmas separation.

Speaker 5 (07:38):
Guilty.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
You know. It's like it's the similar feeling of like
if you go to a third world country, right and
do like a charity thing like was ding to, you know, hunters,
stuff like that, and then you come back you feel
guilty for having what you have when really you just
wanted you should just appreciate it more it's like the
same thing. It's like we feel bad. You know, we're
talking outside here about people who you know, they have
homes and they're the only four homes at the entire

(07:59):
namehood that you know didn't catch fire. It's like, do
you feel bad walking into your house? You know you
can only do so much to get back to people.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
I feel like it's just a heavy feeling for everyone.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
It is. It is.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
It's so speaking of underrest, do you remember when we
took out the water the water capsule in the shower.
We wanted more water to come out. You're a terrible
person bringing that up or are you not remembering?

Speaker 2 (08:27):
You for you telling me to do that? This is
all you're doing.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
It's like there's not enough water, Like there's like.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Water restrictors, water restrictors in like this hotel that we
were in, and Jana is like, I need more. Okay, Well,
if you guys want to donate it all and help
out with people out here suffering from the fires, if
you text the words red Cross to nine oh nine
nine nine, that's an automatic ten dollars donation, just you know,
to help. Every little bit helps. To this point, people

(08:54):
have lost everything, lots of people. So again, text Red
Cross to nine oh.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Nine nine nine what you drink and your ten dollars
latte from Starbucks? You could have given that to the
fire people.

Speaker 5 (09:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yes, make people real guilty for drinking their morning coffee.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
I know, it's what we just talked about.

Speaker 5 (09:09):
Shoot, No, we were so kilt.

Speaker 6 (09:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
Hey Sarah, you still don't have a ring on your finger?

Speaker 2 (09:14):
No?

Speaker 5 (09:14):
I don't, Okay, moving on.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
Moving on, all right. So, one of the things that
Michael and I are now loving in our house is
our Amazon Fire TV. So it brings all the live
and streaming content you love to the biggest screen in
your house, so you can watch everything you love with
access to Netflix, Prime Video, Hulu and so much more.
And with our baby on the way, we're trying to
binge as much as we can right now, so it's great.

(09:39):
And you can even watch YouTube videos and access websites
like Reddit and Facebook. On fire TV, there's makeup tatorials Michael,
if you want to like watch any of those true
cake icing videos to all the new drama that's all
the buzz, whatever you're into it is on fire TV.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Cooking videos if you want to watch some.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Of those exactly and you can just be like, hey,
Alexa open YouTube. I mean, I just think that's great
because you can have everything in your house just working together.
And if that wasn't enough, you can listen to this
podcast and music with the iHeartRadio app on fire TV. So, hey,
head over to www dot Amazon dot com slash windown again,
that's Amazon dot com slash winddown to order a fireTV

(10:20):
of your very owned and they make great gifts for
your friends and family this holiday season.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Hey, do you want to bring up real quick what
we talked about. Maybe you say you saved for the podcast.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Something happened the other day where Okay, we've heard that
when you have a sibling with a baby to always
bring the gift for the sibling, the older sibling, I've heard,
and not to go straight to the baby. So when
our baby boy comes, you know, people don't go straight

(10:53):
to the baby. You say hello to Jolie first. And
some that we should keep presents on hand for Jolie
because no one's going to bring presents for Joeli. So
we have a friend that just had a new baby
and they've got two.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Girls and this is their third.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
This is their third, and so I was like, oh,
this is a perfect opportunity for us to be able
to bring the presence for their two girls on top
of their baby, you know, And so go ahead.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
And this is an old work buddy of mine, okay,
a friendship that I value. And I asked Janna, I said, hey,
when you go get something, because she was running out
to this little cute store of our house to get
something for the infant, I said, hey, can you just
grab a bag, like there's like a present bag to
put these other presents in? Because I didn't want to
show up in like the store bag that we got

(11:37):
them in, like plastic bag. I didn't want to carry
a boy themselves. I just wanted a nice bag just
to carry in. Just that's it. I don't want to
carry the two presents under our arms. Yeah, and Janet
didn't get.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
One because what there's no reason?

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Okay, but I didn't add real quick. And I was
thinking about this yesterday and I actually kind of like,
I was it bothered you? It really did bother me
because I was the car it didn't. I wasn't asking,
like what do you think should we do this? I
asked her, I said, can you please get this bag? Yeah,
I would like to put these other presents for the
girls in this bag, but we.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Already went out of our way to get a present
for them. It doesn't make the girls don't care that
they're wrapped or in presence.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's just about that I asked you for that.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
I understand that, but it's just and I get that,
and I apologize that I didn't because you did ask
me for what you wanted. But in my and I
and I didn't do it, and I should have just
done it. But in my head, I'm like, we went
out of our way to get them presents for the girls.
I have the other stuff wrapped really pretty, so you know,
who cares if the little Barbie doll play sets for

(12:42):
the two girls aren't wrapped. They're just gonna be happy
that they got something. But then he was just, you
know again, He's like, but I.

Speaker 5 (12:49):
Asked for so did you not do it because you
like didn't feel like it, or you were tired or
you didn't have time.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
No, I just I really just didn't think that it
was important.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Which I wasn't asking for opinion.

Speaker 5 (12:58):
I asked her as to do it.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Please get this while you're at the store. He didn't
and so, but I appreciate your apologizing today because when
we went over it, she didn't apologize.

Speaker 5 (13:08):
Well, I just didn't, you know, because if you would
have asked him, I'm just in the middle because I'm
the same like if ty Sarah continue, But would you
be that mad or no?

Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yes, I would be mad because I asked for what
I wanted and I didn't. Because there's times when he's
like let me, I'm like, no, I don't need you
to carry this like I got it. If I will,
I'll ask you if I need something.

Speaker 5 (13:32):
Like are you mad that you asked her to do
something and she didn't? Or are you mad that she
that it didn't look nice and it wasn't pretty and.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Round it came down to you. I was mad that
I just I asked her straight out what I wanted
and needed and then she used her own opinion about
it and decided against it, And I was like, I
didn't ask for your opinion. I asked, did you get
this a two dollars bag?

Speaker 5 (13:55):
So I'm psycho because I think I would be mad
that it didn't look pretty and nice and perfect?

Speaker 3 (13:59):
But who cares? We have to bring the present presence
it was nearly them. It was a nice stretch that
we've brought the presence that we thought that nobody else
would bring presence for the toddlers. We were bringing presents
for the baby. You already went above and beyond. Yeah,
so I'm like, why get the stupid bag with the fluff.
We don't care what is stupid? A great transition into
our guests, Hillary, and we have can you help us

(14:23):
because we clearly need a little issue. We have a
little issue.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Here, and give our listeners kind of your background real
quick so they can understand how awesome you are.

Speaker 6 (14:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (14:32):
I'm doctor Hillary Goulcher, and I have a private practice
in Beverly Hills.

Speaker 6 (14:37):
I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.

Speaker 4 (14:39):
And I work a lot with couples, and I work
a lot with couples in the public eye. And I
work on other stuff too, trauma and anxiety, depression, eating disorders,
parenting stuff, all sorts of things. So I have a
practice in Beverly Hills, and I do a lot of
media stuff, sort of local media and the news, CNN,

(15:01):
Fox and commenting on.

Speaker 6 (15:03):
Various psychological issues. From a therapist perspective.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
How could I have done better? Should I have just
gotten the bag, even though I didn't agree with the
extra few bucks that we should just spend because we
already went above and not like because he asked for it,
should I have just done it?

Speaker 4 (15:20):
You know, I think we have to step back for
a moment because I think it's more of a good
will issue. That's kind of what's coming up for me,
because it like from the outsider, it's kind of such
a small thing.

Speaker 6 (15:30):
But if there were enough good will.

Speaker 4 (15:32):
Between you two, and like, this is my first time
with you, I know a little bit about your history
from listening to a couple of the last podcasts, so
that's a limited but still, but if they're a little
more good will, this would come easier for you to
you know what I mean. Like he would have said, yeah,
I prefer them this way, and you would have been
like okay, because like there's enough emotional like money in

(15:55):
the bank, but it doesn't trigger you, you know what
I mean, And there's enough good will where you're like
it's not iportant to me, it's important to him, So like.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I'm not going to choose this time to stay on
ground to be like this is ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
And it seems like there's enough tension between you guys
in the last period of your life, that there's not
an immediate good will that you lean into.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
We're depositing in the bank more now.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
But that's a great point, right, That's what it sounds like.
You guys are on the upswing. Yeah, but I mean,
like you know, so your question, I mean, sure, probably
maybe you should have done that since he specifically asked, Hey,
this might seem small to you, Well, maybe you didn't
say it like I mean, which might be a good
way to say it, but like, hey, this might seem
small to me, but small to you, but it's important

(16:40):
to me. Can we just figure out a way to
do this kind of thing.

Speaker 5 (16:42):
You're also like one hundred months pregnant. Like in your defense,
I don't know, maybe you just go I'm just saying
like sometimes it's just like.

Speaker 6 (16:53):
Yes, yeah, I don't know, I think.

Speaker 4 (16:55):
And that's where the goodwill piece comes in, you know
what I mean, because it can go either way. Like
if there were enough good will between you two and
she had been like no, you might have.

Speaker 6 (17:03):
Been like, you know what, Okay.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
It's not like it's not like they it's a birthday
present for them. It was just an extended awesome offer
any or a nice gesture that we did anyways, on
top of it that why did it have to have
bells and whistles on it? We already went above and beyond.
We're also bringing food over there to cook for them.
We're also doing a B and C like why do
I have to get a stupid bag with stuff on it?

Speaker 5 (17:25):
It's just stupid?

Speaker 3 (17:27):
How dare I's But again, you asked for what you want,
and if it was something that I wanted, and I
would have been bummed too. If I asked for twelve
lemons and you only bring me six lemons, I'm going
to be upset.

Speaker 4 (17:39):
Well, I feel like for this period of time for
you guys, as you're in the rebuilding process, like when
one of you takes the risk to ask for what
you want, whether it's like about you know, the bag
and how it's dressed, or whether it's like in the
bedroom or something. When someone does that, that it's really
important for this period of time to be hyper sensitive.

Speaker 6 (17:56):
To that, Like like ding he did that, I need.

Speaker 4 (17:59):
To take a minute and like step outside of myself
and make sure I attempt at least to like adhere
to his request because he did that, you know what
I mean, I totally get that, and that it's some
other point down the line, six months, a year or whatever,
there'll be more goodwill between you guys where it's like,
you know, we have we have some room to play here, Like, yeah,
I'm going to fight back today because I'm one hundred
months pregnant. I'm just like doing it and you're like,

(18:21):
you know what, she's one hundred months pregnant, she's grabbing.

Speaker 6 (18:23):
She doesn't really do it right. You just don't have
like a lot of like rubber band between you two
right now.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, And that's true too, just because I get upset
when I'm like, I've asked you for what you need
and you didn't. So it's like, once we kind of
build those up a little bit more, then it won't
be like you should saying, then we're gonna have some
like good wiggle room.

Speaker 6 (18:39):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
It won't be like this forever where you can never
have a day where you're like, I just can't be
the hero in this moment. I just can't step up
even though it's a small request and where you're like, Okay,
she's just moody and right, but it's fine, I can
let it go.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Which is funny because we have we've acknowledged that we're
starting to get better at that. Yeah, where we really
are where we're just kind of like we're not digging
at if someone's we can feel attention or you know,
there's something was said, we don't dig at each other
as much or just kind of let it be. It's like,
all right, well we'll revisit this later.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, switching gears really fast. Sarah, I really want you
to get your opinion. Yes, you're her, Yeah, what's going
on with your I.

Speaker 5 (19:14):
Just want a question because I feel like this is
a big issue. Like you know, we're always you're always
hearing about people dating people that their parents or their
friends or their families don't approve of. I'm not in
that situation, just saying, but I'm just wondering because like
for Mike and Janet, you know, she went through something.
I'm sure she told her family what went down. You know,

(19:37):
my friends, your friend's family, you got people involved emotionally, however,
you know, whatever, how what is the process when she
gets when when she makes the decision she and Mike,
you know, what is the process of her now saying Okay, everyone,
everything I said, I still feel or I don't feel

(19:57):
or do you know what I mean? Like, how how
are people supposed to go.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
From basically hating Mike to not hating me extreme for well,
so you're so this person has said a bunch of
bad stuff about the person that she's there with, and
then now is like, never mind, he's working on himself.
So y'all need to like him. Is basically the gist
of this situation.

Speaker 5 (20:18):
Yeah, in that scenario, what I guess. I just want
to understand in your scenario.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
And just to clarify because I don't Jana, is your situation.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
I don't, which is kind of in the middle of something.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
But you're one of the outsiders who now you're supposed
to change your opinion of.

Speaker 5 (20:33):
This person, not even change. I just want to understand.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
They want this, they want her. I want to bat
on board.

Speaker 5 (20:40):
I just want to understand the flip switch and whether,
I mean I even have talked to Janna, I've heard her,
you know, just in general, Like, I'm just curious, what
are we supposed to you know, when you know so much,
how do you unknow it?

Speaker 6 (20:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (20:56):
I mean I don't think there is such a thing
as a flip switch. That would be like an unre
expectation because the person asking you for that courtesy didn't
have a flip switch either. They went through a whole process,
whatever the process was. They went through therapy, they consulted friends,
they consulted family, they saw a pastor, right, I mean,
they didn't flip a switch. They over a period of time,
made a decision. And so I can't imagine that someone

(21:20):
could also flip a switch, or could flip a switch
in any scenario really, so to me, I mean, it
depends which side you're looking on. If it's Jana telling
her friends. So I've made a decision. I'm continuing my
life with Mike, you know, to acknowledge, like I know,
this might be hard, Like you were on this road
with me and it looked like it was going to

(21:40):
go a different direction. There are a lot of feelings,
a lot of things happen, and some of them were amazing,
some of them were awful, And it might be really
hard to like turn the emotional car around and come
on this journey with me. But I'm asking you to
and I acknowledge that it might be at your own pace,
it might not be right along with me and I'm
okay with that kind of thing.

Speaker 5 (21:57):
I guess it's just like what's the borderline between supporting
and then right because I think this.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Is yeah, this is a got it.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
Yes, well there is. I mean, if there's something abusive
going on, either mentally, verbally or physically, that's that's a
different scenario.

Speaker 6 (22:14):
Like all bets are off.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, So if the person has done that, then it's
gonna be hard for the other people to be on
board with that relationship when you know a B and C.

Speaker 5 (22:23):
I just wonder how, you know, it's so hard, especially
in this time, like you know, everything's so sensitive and
everything's so political, and it's just like how do you
be supportive and how you know without hurting feelings or
without saying too much or not saying enough. And you know,
even I didn't know Janna at the time that she
went through everything they were going through. I mean I
met her a year and a half ago, but even then,
it's like, I feel like all you can really do

(22:46):
is just kind of stand by and listen, But like,
how much is enough?

Speaker 4 (22:52):
I think you can say out loud to the people
that you're you're dealing with that like, I need to
see a history of positive health, the non toxic behavior
for me to be on board.

Speaker 5 (23:02):
And just look forward.

Speaker 6 (23:03):
Yeah, and that's not where I am right now.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
I'm going to follow your lead in terms of understanding
that you're moving forward with this person, and I'll stand
by and support of you. But I need to see
a history for me as an individual to be on board.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
I like that I was, and I was kind of
telling him, or when I was talking to Sarah about this,
I was saying, you know, with Michael, not everybody was
on board the day I said I'm staying with Michael.
It took months year.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Ago, especially because there's never one day that you said
I'm staying.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
With Mike, right But it's it's a it's a price.
So I'm like, see the process and if he looks
like he's changing and continuing to grow, then that's your Okay.
He is trying, he is becoming the man that he
says he's going to be in this relationship. So but
for the person to be you know, it's this or

(23:52):
either support or not support. Is that it's a little
aggressive with the situation.

Speaker 5 (23:55):
I think that and I think everyone's different to everyone
has their ways of dealing with whatever they are dealing with.
I just think that I've seen that in a lot
of friends and family and people I know where they're
with people that maybe the others don't. It's hard when
you care about someone too that you don't maybe approve of.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, how long has it been since things are trying
to turn to the other direction? Like how long have
you been expected now to get on board?

Speaker 5 (24:23):
Not long?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, but because it's she's just heard a lot of
bad stuff, right, I was just like, wait, why.

Speaker 5 (24:31):
I just feel like, like even I keep bringing back
to Jana because that's really the only Like others, I
just feel like when when it's a whole lot going
around and there's a lot of people involved, which I'm
sure there was a ton of people involved with you,
I just don't know, like when is too much? Like
do I step in, do I step back? Do I watch?
Do I say? You know? I just don't know, And
I think a lot of people don't know when do

(24:53):
I fully voice my.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
I mean, I'll say this for my friends. I know
there was a couple times where I'm like, that's it,
I'm done, I'm leaving, and then I then I you know,
we worked on it, and then there was another incidents
that happened where I called them, told them, and then
I knew that I had to leave because I've now
just told so much that I would be crazy not

(25:19):
to leave, and they would I know what they would say.
And but then when I said I was still staying.
You know, I know what my girlfriend thought. But they
at the end of the day, they still love me,
and they're like, I mean, we disagree with you, but
we love you and we'll support you.

Speaker 5 (25:35):
Because that's what I think is hard. You don't want
to make like you if we were friends in that time,
I would not want to make you feel Okay, I
just told her this, so now I can't tell her this,
but now I want to tell I would never want
to make someone feel like they can't tell me or
they said too much, or now they're afraid to tell.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, exactly. And then because now Michael's this best version
he's ever been, so now they're seeing the best version
of him. So if I didn't stay and give that chance,
this version, no one would have seen.

Speaker 5 (26:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:03):
I think one of the things to keep in mind
is not to alienate the loved one, you know, what
I mean, the person that you are concerned about, and
to your point, Jenna being able to say like, I
love you no matter what.

Speaker 6 (26:14):
Here are my thoughts. I'm worried about this.

Speaker 4 (26:16):
Yea, I feel happy about that, but I'm standing on
the sidelines here to support you, so that if this
person needs to come to you at any time, whether
it's to tell you the great news that everything's wonderful,
or whether it's to tell you like I need out
and I need help, I don't like shut that door
with judgment. But you haven't smoke screened it either by
not being authentic and saying like, I'm worried about this
and I have to say it out loud, but I'm

(26:37):
in your corner no matter what I think.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, I think that's great too, and that that's kind
of what Jana's family did in our situation where her
mother came to me, was basically like, look, if Jana
loves you, we're going to love you. If she doesn't,
we're not going to. Like simple as that, her entire family,
there's such a close family. They feed off of Jana's feelings,
her emotions, her presence, and that really dictated like how

(27:01):
their interaction with me was over the last two and
a half years. So for you to like exactly what
Hillary just said, still be there in support and just
read off of whoever your friend or whoever it is,
just be like, I'm going off of you, but here
are my feelings. I think Hillary hit it on the
head because that's what chance family did.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
And I also think too for the person that you
know you're dealing with and kind of me too, we
want and need sympathy in those moments. But I think
sometimes too much said is also bad, yeah, because we're
putting ourselves in a situation like you would be like,
why did you involve them? Why did you tell them that?
And I'm like, looking back, I get yeah, I actually

(27:39):
probably didn't need to do that, and now I've just
kind of stirred it more and made it worse.

Speaker 5 (27:44):
But you can own and you could admit that, so
that's yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
But I think in that moment, I just I wanted people,
just want to have them like be on your side
and want people rallied around you because it could be
you don't know, it could be the hardest time of
your life, so you want to make sure you've got
people on your bench.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, that's you know, that's actually a good, nice analogy.
There have a good question for Hillary, because Hillary, you
deal with you said, a lot of celebrities and maybe
in the limelight, maybe more their businesses out there. Do
you have a different approach when you're dealing with someone
that is of celebrity or known rather than maybe a
more you know, private couple dealing with these issues?

Speaker 4 (28:17):
But I think the macro answer is not really, you know,
because when it gets down to it, folks in the
public eye or celebrities are the same the same, right
right as any other person. But I mean they do
bring to the table different issues like what is it
like to have your husband and yours business you know
everyone public eye? That is, that is an issue that
most people wouldn't have to deal with, So in cases

(28:37):
like your scenario, that's a whole other added pressure. So yes,
I mean dealing with that and working through that is certainly.

Speaker 6 (28:44):
Something I take on.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
But kind of like when it gets down to like
the guts of a couple, it's so similar, right, so
similar stars, they're.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Just like a right.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
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Speaker 3 (29:08):
Oh it's a fun factor, Michael.

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Speaker 3 (29:52):
Do you have a hard time spelling babe b u
oh okay oka alon And I guess I'm teaching Jolie
out as well. Well, here's the deal another thing that
we're loving. And it's so great because I really am
trying to have great household products around our house because

(30:15):
just with you know, I feel like we've had so
many guests on here they say it's not just about
what you put in your body, it's about the products
that you have around your house.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
And that you put that you're exposed to.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Yeah, that we're exposed to. So you know, I started
to really go through and I was like, man, I
don't know if the surface cleaner is good, but we've
always loved Myer's products. We love Bert's Bees, so anything
from Babyganic. So let me tell you about Grove Collaborative.
So it is the perfect place to get all of
your household products for a clean and healthy home. So,

(30:44):
like Mike just said, there's Brook Babyganics, there's Myers Cleaning supplies, sunscreen, lotions.
They make sure that all of their products are free
from animal testing. And the great thing too, is is
it's cheaper. So when I shop with Grove dot Co,
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I could even text a real person to get product recommendations.
And it's just really great again because they're natural, chemical

(31:06):
free products for our house and the baby on the way,
and honestly, it's just it's nice to not have to
go to the grocery store.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
It is, and Janna's a big advocate for ordering things
and having them come to our door, and so the
fact that these are all things that we have used
on a daily basis even before we found out about
this has been fantastic.

Speaker 5 (31:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
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(31:45):
co slash Jana. That's Grove dot Co slash Jana. Hey, Mark,
we read an email for Hillary.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Well, yeah, I mean this is someone wrote us to Jana,
and I think Hillary could probably really help out this person.
Whose name is Jill. She says, I feel so lost
right now. My name is Joanna I'm almost twenty four
years old. My boyfriend of four years broke up with me,
and there's just so much history there. I'm really having
a difficult time being without him. I feel like I
lost a part of myself. Is there any way to
have a podcast how to get over a heartbreak? He's

(32:15):
my first love, my first boyfriend. I need your advice.
You're so wonderful, Jana, and your podcasts are inspiring, and
I think this would really help me. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
Well, I'm sorry your heart it's breaking.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
That's heartbreaking work, Joanna, that's none. I was just thinking
about breakups the other day and thinking about how the
really and the realm of grief. You know, this really
is a grief for her. I mean, it's not just
a breakup, especially when you're with someone for that long.
It's like losing a family member. It's a death devastating.

(32:46):
It's devastating. So the idea or expectation that she would
be sort of okay anytime, really soon is too lofty
at this point. Like it really is having to grieve
that loss and grieve the change in friends, in the
change of what your daily life feels like, and the
change of what you imagined your future would be like.
So it's a lot of grief and loss and sadness.

(33:07):
So I think you have to allow some room for
that and do a lot of self care around that,
whatever that.

Speaker 6 (33:12):
Might mean for her.

Speaker 4 (33:13):
What you would do for yourself if you weren't feeling well,
you know, physically you try to do for yourself when
you're not feeling well mentally, whether it's like trying to
exercise or get more sleep, or be with friends or
loved family or exercise more, that sort of thing. But
giving her the space to really grieve, and also trying
to start to put together almost like a mental vision

(33:34):
board of what her life is going to be like
moving forward without this person, Like what are the pieces
of her life that she wants to expand and grow
that maybe she didn't in the relationship just because of
sheer time or whatever were the issues in that relationship,
you know, So starting to have a seed, like a
kernel of hope start to grow so she can create
like a new picture of what she's working towards.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
I like that a lot. And I also think obviously
when you're in the middle of it, it's the worst
breakups are just awful, But At the same time, though,
I'm thinking about all my breakups, and I remember, I
have a diary too that i've I've kept, and sometimes
I go back and I I you do, Yeah, I
go back and I just it's like, you know, I'm
reading how devastated I was from this, you know, from

(34:17):
the breakups. But then I look, you know, a year later,
and I'm a different person. I'm happier, I'm with someone new,
and you know, it's like the doors. It's it's crazy
what happens when door shut and the windows and it's.

Speaker 5 (34:31):
So cliche, but I totally I you become so much
stronger and you grow so much like I look at
my sixteen year old self. Oh, but like it's crazy,
Like I literally it's funny. I always go back to
that and I'm like, no, I something changed, you know
what I mean, Like you just become a different You
become stronger than you thought because the days, you know,

(34:52):
you feel like it's the end of the world and
you don't want to like see the world or you
Oh my god, I watched Sex in the City for
two weeks straight. I'll never forget my first breakup. As
the eighteen the world was ending, my dad was like,
get out of it, but it's you know.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
Yeah, and the mostially at that age, it's like so young. Yeah,
we all have a high school sweetheart for sure, but
even just in our twenties, you know, my twenties, I
was like, I'm never going to find anyone, and then
you know, we break up and it's just awful, and
but you always you just learn and you grow so
much more about yourself. And I would just embrace that
time and embrace the growth that you're going to have
for yourself and and you know who you're it's exciting

(35:28):
to be like, okay, like then who is my person?

Speaker 4 (35:31):
Well, and one thing I always think about is that
is that feeling states never stay the same. Like pick
the worst feeling you've ever ever had in your life,
and you imagine it would never go away.

Speaker 6 (35:40):
It always shifts and changes, always always owen.

Speaker 5 (35:43):
It's like good one.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
No one has ever been able to give me an
example where that's not true. It doesn't mean like grief
might not carry with you, or sadness or hurt or
whatever it is, but they never stay exactly the same.
So sort of knowing that and believing that, uh huh, well,
sort of give some hope for the future. And to
your point, Jane, I totally agree. There's no a breakup
in my own personal history. But I can't think of
that I didn't learn something significant, whether it was like

(36:07):
a year later or five years later or three months later.
I'm mary not I have two kids, but all of
that history and heartbreak that I also hadn't had those moments, like,
I wouldn't trade one of them.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Right, And Joanna, if a lot of that too, is
you know, relating to other people's stories, if maybe she
has friends that have gone through bad breakups. But if
this helps this situation, if Jana and I can go
through the pain that we have both felt from our situation,
which I mean during the midst of it, did you
ever think goes and to go away?

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Never?

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Never me either ever ever?

Speaker 3 (36:43):
And so and it's still there from time to time, right,
which lessons over.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Time exactly Hillary's point, Like the grief and stuff like
that doesn't just go away. You learned something from it,
you become stronger from it.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, but that it does.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Being in the midst of that, it lessons where not
in that anymore? If we can go through that, Yeah,
I think Joanna can go through that grief, go through
that pain and come out on the other side. Yeah,
I know, right now it feels like it won't ever
run the killer, he said.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
I mean your your lobster's out there. Don't worry.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Okay. So today's show is sponsored by talk Space again,
the online therapy company that lets you message a licensed
therapist from anywhere at any time.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
Do you know, by the way, sorry not to interrupt you,
but how many times I have like needed advice in
that moment, and you know, my therapist there is like,
well I can see you next Tuesday. Like I don't
want I need now now.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Now you're a now kind of person.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
I need it right now. And then I get on
a blog and then people are telling me all these things,
but I really need to talk to a therapist.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Absolutely, or your husband, but better off just text a therapist.
That means you can prove your mental health even if
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(38:06):
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Speaker 3 (38:12):
It's an app. So there's therapists on there that are
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(38:48):
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Speaker 3 (38:55):
So I guess I had to say something really fast.
Kind of gets jealous when my fab fit fun boxes
come to the door and you do, and he's like, well, oh,
in a box. So I'll never forget the day that
our producer Amy texts me and says, can you pick

(39:17):
out a man crate for Michael? And I'm like, oh,
a man.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Crately, I've been dying to this spot.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
What is this? So I go on man Crates and
I start looking at all these different crates and there
are so many different ones, like and you by the way,
you guys Again, Michael's been dying to do this spot
because it's truly so authentic to his needs. So anyways,
so I'm going through. I'm like, Okay, there's a crate
for whiskey. There's a crate for cooking. There's like a

(39:46):
make your own knife. There's all like, I.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Mean, like a horse in the stable right now, just
ready for Jane to open the gate so I can
just start talking about it, I know.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
But I'm like, there's all these different things, and I'm like,
you know what, Amy, this is kind of overwhelming because
you know, Mike likes to cook, he likes whiskey, he
likes knives, he likes these things. But then I saw
this one crate and I was like, you know what,
He's probably gonna pick this crate, but I'm just gonna
let him choose whatever one he wants, and guess which

(40:15):
one he chose Michael, go for it. You're out of
the stable, baby.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
So yeah, Janna was overwhelmed, and so going through it,
I went through. There were I think one hundred and
fifteen man crates total on the site. When I look,
there's probably even more now, actually there are even more.
So there's over one hundred different types of man crates.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Are they really?

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yes? We trust me. I look through all of them
and the ones that I found to get.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
Drumroll please for which one didn't Mike Kid.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Zombie Annihilates you get, baby, it came, That's right. It
came with an eleven inch machete, a tomahawk, a six
inch knife, gorilla glue, duct tape, wait book for Zombie
Apocalypse Survival Guide the same author of Ward Wars. He
knows what he's talking about. So I am prepped and ready.

Speaker 3 (41:05):
I was like, why do you? And I knew it
the second I saw Zombie Nihilation. I was like, I
bet you he's going to pick that one. And that's
the one you picked up.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
With a smile on my face, I texted Janna back,
I said, I want the Zombie Annihilation man create Now.
It's just stuff that I would never buy. Myself. You know,
stuff that's fun to have as a man, and so
especially for this holiday season, there are so many options
for your father, for your father.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Now, we got my brother, We got my brother the
whiskey kit.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah, I mean there's so many options for that. For
that mail in your life that you don't know what
to get, I'm telling you you will find something. There's
you can create.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
The greatest thing ever.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
You can create your own knife on there. You can
open the crate, you can create your own knife.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
You're so excited.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
I'm so excited to I mean, I mean anything exotic
meats where they have ostrich alligator, all that kind of
jerky grilling, different types of grilling.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
I will say, it's really okay, Michael, Okay, calm down.
It's really hard to shop for the men in your life.
I mean such a like my dad, my brother. I'm like,
I don't know what to get you. But I mean
this truly is the place to go. Man, create, Go ahead, Michael,
why don't.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
You just yes, please let me finish. And every most
gifts ship in a sealed wooden crate with a crowbar,
and so you have to the mint. It was a
gift to me so I had a pride open with
this crowbar. He found me demand it is legit. I
didn't feel like a man. That took me a little while,
but that was part of the fun. That's part of
the novelty and is such a great time and I
really enjoyed it. Just remember, with man Crates, you're giving

(42:34):
more than a gift. You're giving a gift experience that
you will all remember and I definitely remember my first
Man Crate. Every Man Crate comes with one hundred percent
satisfaction guarantee, and I can vouch for that because I
also have the whiskey Man Create as well, so they're
two for two for me. I'm on my way to
over a hunt.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Okay, Michael'll get to it.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Listeners. Listeners to this show, buy one gift and you
will get the second gift for twenty five percent off
when you go to Mancrates dot com slash Wine w
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(43:11):
slash Wine again w H I N E. Go get one.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
Can we talk about anxiety?

Speaker 5 (43:17):
For a second.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Yes, So I have really, really, really bad anxiety. I
had PTSD when I from an incident when I was
twenty one. And so Michael and I got into an
argument last night on the car ride home from our
friend's house, uh, because we were talking about I brought
up something to our friends and I said, I'm starting

(43:40):
to have anxiety. And I brought this up with my
therapist too, because and she wanted me to share with
Michael that I'm having anxiety about the sea section that
I that you know we're going to have. And I
had a really tough sea section with Jolie. I freak out,
Who do you want to explain? Since you feel like
what you said to me last.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Night basically that was bad. But basically Janet gets it.
Starts to get anxiety about the birth and being in
the hospital and the pain, and then so for with
when we had Jolie, she was like, I need like
the epidura, I need the epidural, like kind of like
screaming at the doctors. She gets me screaming at that,
not screaming, but you're you know, you're anxious, You're wrapped up.

(44:21):
You're like, hey, I need the epidural. You get the epidural,
then you start freaking out because you can't feel anything.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
So I don't like to feel like. It was the
weirdest feeling in the world to me, not to be
able to feel my legs and from you know, waist down.
I was like, I don't like it. I don't like
this feeling. I only just feel like like in my
heart's starting to race. And I was like, I don't
want it anymore. I don't want it anymore. And he's like, well,
you just asked for it, and I'm like, okay, but
I like, like then his energy gives me more anxiety
and with the problem with this conversation, and I'll just

(44:47):
say this is he goes, how can I be helpful
with your anxiety? And and and this is last night?
And you got he was, so it's all in your head.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
And eventually, again, just like it was in the hospital
with Jolie, I don't automatically go there. It's you. You
don't understand. You get like you cannot be rationed.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
With when I that feeling.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Though, No, I'm not saying you do. I'm not saying
you purposely do it. I'm just saying when you are
in that super anxious space. Yeah, you're getting hot right
now coming now you cannot be rationed with so.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
But I need you to stay calm, and then maybe
I can't, right, and that is my job. But he
doesn't stay calm, and he's like, well, you have to
prepare yourself. I go, I am preparing myself for the uncomfortable.
I know it's gonna suck, but I'm still like, I'm
still gonna have anxiety. It doesn't just go away. He's like, well,
I don't know, because it's just all in your head.
And I'm like, yeah, I hate that. I hate having
to like already freak out about anxiety and probably I

(45:41):
can't get tag something. Someone yelling on top of the mic.
I was like, and you didn't even I go, and
you know what, you just made it. Now I don't
even want to talk to about my anxiety because now
you just made it worse. And now you're yelling at
me because well if I can't give you what you want,
and it's like, you know what, never mind, I'm not
just fine. I'm not gonna tell you I feel about it.
And now I don't feel it supported and I'm going
to have an anxiety attack and I have to work

(46:01):
through it for myself because you're gonna get heightened. But
you think he basically thinks I'm crazy. He's like because
he doesn't know what an anxiety attack feels like. And those
people make me feel crazy. You do that to tie.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
No, I'm like the mic, but I am the calm one.
So like Tya's really bad anxiety and when he gets
that anxiety, he looks to me to be his rock,
and I'm his rock. But then after six years, I'm like, Okay,
let's we know how to do this. Let's breathe, you
know what I mean. I'm like, every time I can't
be there to hold your hand if you have an
anxiety attack and I'm there, it's an you know what

(46:32):
I mean. So I'm in the middle because I stay calm,
but then like I want to go into the bathroom
and cry, and then I want to come out and
be like, I'm calm, I'm cool, you know what I mean,
because I don't want to freak out in front of
him because I am his rock, and so I kind
I'm like in the middle because sometimes I want to
scream at him. Sure, but I know he thinks I
don't want him to think that I think he's crazy.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Yeah, and what I think, and he makes me feel
crazy because I do say it, and I already feel
crazy for feeling my anxiety.

Speaker 6 (46:58):
Yeah, I'm so happy to talk about We're.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
All just like and I was, so I was. I mean,
I called you an a hole last night. It's been
a long time since I've called you a word.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
It has been a long time.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
Yeah, I'm sorry for calling you that, but you you
that was rude. You asked me for what I needed.
I told you what I needed, and then you were
then you got heightened, and then you just made my anxiety.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Can I just explain just so, Hilary, Hillary, this was literally,
this was literally last night.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
I'm sorry, Hillary, Yeah, this is very fresh.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
So I just want to say again, last night was
an example of I was calm at the beginning, and
that's why I said, what can I do to help
with your anxiety? And we start talking about it, and
then you got on topic of if you need something,
to go ask the doctors for you, and I said, yes,
I understand that, and I will go ask the doctors
if you need something, and her guy no, said, if
you need something, I'll give you this or whatever. His

(47:49):
tone was not that initially I was. I was like,
I was like, yes, I can go ask him, but
let me just prepare you where you might not get
the outcome you want. You might be asking for something
they're like, hey, medically, we can't give you this.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
And then I would say okay, and then you're like,
but that's not what you do, and that's well, okay,
but but I have then if the doctor says no,
that's no, there's nothing I can do if you at
least saying hey, you know what, I went and I
asked and they said you can't have this right now.
So then I need you to stay calm with me.
And he keeps going, but but butt, and then this
is building my anxiety. And now now I'm getting worried.

Speaker 5 (48:23):
Okay, she's gonna go to a labor and I'm freaking out.

Speaker 6 (48:25):
Yeah, let's get okay, let's get to this quickly.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
Okay, I'm actually having a contraction.

Speaker 5 (48:30):
Oh my god, I'm coming all.

Speaker 4 (48:31):
Right, So this is a good moment to kind of
do a little psycho education for Michael for your listeners,
because anxiety is a real thing, like a real physical condition,
and we treat it the same way we would think
about treating like bronchitis or pneumonia or any other physical condition.

Speaker 6 (48:52):
It is.

Speaker 4 (48:52):
It is not just in the head. I mean, obviously
it has roots in the mind, but it becomes a
physical condition and it becomes out of the person's control.

Speaker 6 (49:03):
So it's it's not something that Jana can choose.

Speaker 4 (49:07):
It doesn't mean that you're like void of all responsibility
and you don't do the best you can to be
graceful and kind and respectful during those moments. But I
think for you, Michael, being able to conceptualize it like that,
that it's not something that she can just choose not
to have might be a good place to start. I
think when you guys have that kind of conversation, you

(49:29):
the information that you're coming back at her with is
not relevant for that conversation because you guys haven't created
a foundation about how you're going to.

Speaker 6 (49:38):
Deal with this.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
Right, So, even though it might be a reality that
you guys come up with a plan and you implement
it and Janet freaks out and doesn't do anything that
she says she's going to do and does everything you
say that she's going to do, right, that sort of
is for the next conversation, but like the first conversation
to create a safety zone so for her to feel like, Okay,
at least my anxiety can start feeling con tained or

(50:00):
at least attended to or validated has to happen first,
and that like didn't get to happen.

Speaker 6 (50:05):
And once that happens, then you can have the next.

Speaker 4 (50:07):
Conversation, which is like, okay, so if we have this
safety plan and you go outside of it or start
coming at me or start you know, doing what you
did last time or whatever.

Speaker 6 (50:18):
What are we going to do?

Speaker 4 (50:19):
But the first conversation kind of has to be more like,
tell me all about what you're afraid of and what
I can do for you, and your job is just
go okay, okay, okay for that first conversation, because that
that anxiety. That anxiety is I just had a baby
seven months ago and I had are you serious.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
You look amazing?

Speaker 4 (50:38):
Whoa okay, but whoa, thank you, thank you. But I
had a plan C section and I had that ex
same experience, and it is really unnerving to feel like
you're paralyzed from half your body down. It's it's really unnerving.
So I think most women feel that way anyway. And
then if you have a history of anxiety and it's

(50:59):
tied to an incident that created PTSD.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
For you feeling trapped, Yes.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
That runs really deep. So you're right your fear that
it might be uh, she might be impulsive or not
behave as you guys plan is probably a reality because
you have this history and who knows how it's going
to go. But being able to feel like you're united
on like the idea of how it's going to go,
and then coming up with contingency plans after, I think

(51:26):
is is a place to start.

Speaker 6 (51:27):
And I'm noticing your well to you might slightly be
rolling his.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Eyes at me, and I kind of wanted to thank
you for bringing that because I was gonna say, why
are you calling bs to this? Because I still think
that it's something that I that I can control.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Okay, all right here and here, let me just say.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
This, So thank you for calling him out because I
was going to.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Do saying it's not a choice, you can't control it. Okay,
that's what being said. What about you have no idea
what anxiety feels. Listening for a second, I'm not I'm
not doubting you I'm not. I'm just saying for let's
use the example of addiction. Let's use addictions. Okay, people
are addicted to something, but it still comes down to

(52:07):
a physical choice to what decisions you make, regardless of
addiction being a mental disorder or not.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
Why are you getting so mean?

Speaker 5 (52:17):
I have a way of maybe coming in because I
do have a question kind of like what Mike saying,
what is the line between Obviously Jana has anxiety, and
like I know that tie, my tie has anxiety, but
what is there a line between anxiety and then not
that he's mental, but then okay, not only so you

(52:38):
have anxiety, And now you're getting in your own head
because like he doesn't like to fly. Okay, so we're flying,
and now all he's talking about is his anxiety and
that he gets anxiety. You know I having Okay, well,
let's not talk. I know you have anxiety, so you
know what I mean, what's the medium between? Okay, let's
accept that you have anxiety. But now, because I'm very
like weird when it comes to those things, I'm like, okay,
let's listen to a podcast. Let's close our eyes, like

(53:00):
I try to be like, Okay, let's not say the
A word and let's see what how you know what
I mean, because I'm mental in my own right, so
I'm like, I'm all in my mind. So sometimes I'm like,
is there a borderline tour?

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Like?

Speaker 5 (53:15):
Okay, maybe you were making it worse right now?

Speaker 4 (53:17):
Of course, I mean, it doesn't mean that you don't
get to protect yourself as the partner of someone with anxiety.
It doesn't mean you just have to give yourself over
to the whim of that person. And to your point,
you know, talking about addiction. If someone's addicted to drugs
and their behavior is completely destructive, it's not like we
just stand back and go. But they have a disease,
that's okay, right. I mean, we make decisions to draw

(53:38):
boundaries and may even have to separate our lives from them,
be out of contact with them until they get healthy.
I'm certainly not suggesting we just follow the whim of
someone that's struggling, whether it's with anxiety or addiction. But
I mean we do get to protect ourselves. You can
certainly suggest to him let's think about not saying it.
How about music? How about a podcast? And if it's
not resonating with him, then you can say, you know,

(54:00):
I love you and I'm here for you, but I
need a break from this energy.

Speaker 5 (54:03):
So I'm gonna I just want to try and fix it.
I mean, even if if she you know, and I'm
sure Mike feels it's hard watching someone and not because
you're right, it's not like they have a call for
There's nothing I can and I'm control freak, and so
when I can't, it gives. It's like it gives me.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
That's what it is. It's if I try. And that's
the thing. I am empathetic towards Jennie feeling this way,
and that's what it is. I don't want to see
her like that. But it's when I try to help,
but yet she won't. I feel like she won't take
what I have to say. She has to hear it
from a doctor. She has like if I'm like, hey, honey,
you're gonna be okay, well you don't know that, go
get a doctor. Like I'm like, I'm telling you you're

(54:39):
gonna be fine. Like why don't I'm your husband?

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Why what I need in that moment.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Before I just listen to me?

Speaker 3 (54:46):
At the same time, because what if, why can't you
I'm like, actually really getting upset.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
But why doesn't my Why doesn't my voice matter in
those moments? Why?

Speaker 3 (54:56):
Like? Why will you just not support what I need?

Speaker 2 (55:00):
So you need a doctor to tell you that you're okay?

Speaker 3 (55:02):
Sure in that moment? Maybe that's what I need?

Speaker 6 (55:05):
What's feeling so upsetting for you? Right now?

Speaker 3 (55:06):
I feel close or feel big?

Speaker 6 (55:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Yeah, like I just feel like stuck, Like I feel
like you won't like you don't you make me feel
like I'm fucking crazy for having anxiety.

Speaker 5 (55:17):
I don't want to feel this way, Mike.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
I'm curious what if it is true that for her
she sometimes does need an outside party like a doctor
or something to tell her it's going to be okay.

Speaker 6 (55:28):
Like, what if that's true? What does that bring up
for you?

Speaker 2 (55:32):
It it brings up because it'll be on something super elementary,
and it's like, I'm likes it makes it makes me
feel like like what I have to say doesn't matter
and that it doesn't carry anyway, Like what do you?
And like honestly, it's like, I'm your husband. Do you
think I would possibly put you in a situation that

(55:52):
is harmful for you? No? I wouldn't. I'm your husband,
I want to see you okay, and so I'm going
to make sure and all that I can control that
you're okay.

Speaker 4 (56:01):
Yeah, it makes you feel somehow ineffective or not relevant
or something in those moments. Yeah, so I mean kind
of from an outsider's perspective, it's.

Speaker 6 (56:09):
Not being in the emotion of it. You can see
both sides.

Speaker 4 (56:11):
I mean, it makes sense right that for Jana that
it's so important to be able in those moments where
she feels completely panicked and like almost traumatized, to be
able to get what she needs, even if what she
needs is something that you don't totally understand or doesn't
resonate with you, and somehow not being able being able
not to take it personally, you.

Speaker 6 (56:29):
Know, but it really makes sense to me why that
comes up for you. You're her husband.

Speaker 4 (56:33):
You want to protect her and you want her to
feel your love and like your focus on her. That
like I got you, and that sense that the I
got you isn't enough makes you feel but it's impotent
or something.

Speaker 5 (56:43):
It seems like your main anxiety right now, right you
know what I mean? Like usually it's not.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Like I mean, like I'll have Anxietyttecks I can work
through any now he's there for you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (56:52):
Like there are.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Times when like I'll it's I just want to know
that they can land the plane.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
No, you know what I mean? Like just like if
it's one big thing, does it take one thing for
him to do? And then it's like, Okay, we're good.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
Yeah, it's because it's not every time just him either
asking or but but saying no to to my fear
or to my my my safety net of at least asking,
he's just saying no to it right off the bat,
and that gives me no. Well, exactly when you were
like you're fine, I'm your husband, like, you're you're not
gonna die, And I'm like, but can you just I'm
asking you to feel safe, and I'm asking you to

(57:26):
do something to make me feel safe.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Can I ask a question? This is a question. What
about you hearing from me, your husband? What about you
hearing from me, Hey we're not the plane's not going
to crash, We're gonna be okay, Hey we're not going
to get sick. Hey there's not going to be an earthquake.
What like, what about hearing something from me isn't.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
Enough for you I'm not saying it's not enough, but
but what is it?

Speaker 4 (57:48):
Like?

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Why don't you take what I say like I'm just curious.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
For my anxiety. Sometimes I just need to know that
I don't know how to how to explain it.

Speaker 4 (57:56):
I think I think what's hard to accept from my
standpoint is that the anxiety is bigger than you in
those moments, that it really isn't about you, That it's
not about your effectiveness as a husband, it's not about
her love for you or her trust in you. That
it really is about something that's overtaken her and she
needs a set of things to help contain her, and

(58:16):
one of them is you, and one of them is
you being her advocate.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
It sounds and yeah, and if it can't happen, then
I need you just to be calm and reassuring and
again knowing not making me feel crazy on top of it,
because that's the worst part. And because people that don't
have anxiety don't understand that they feel like they're going
to die and their heart's going to explode and they're
going to pass out. And I mean, there's so many
times I've had I get so heightened that I that
I'll pass out because I get so. But I mean

(58:40):
I've been able to like work through it and you know,
do all the things that I've learned from therapy and
the counting and going outside or all all like so
many different things. But sometimes I can't control it, and
I just need that. I need you not to get
upset and make it ten times worse because then I
don't feel supported, and then I feel more heightened. And
that's how I felt in the car last night, and
I felt trapped in the car. I literally wanted to

(59:02):
get out of the car on the expressway because I
felt so trapped that you just weren't being supportive at all.
And then I'm like, I don't even now I'm terrified
at the sea section. I'm terrified of it. Now I'm
terrified of being a baby or being crazy or and
that just makes my anxiety a million times worse.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
So I would say this, since we're like on a timeline,
baby coming like any moment. I maybe normally wouldn't say
this because I just met you, Mike, but I'm just
going for the intervention.

Speaker 6 (59:30):
Yeah, no, I would say this.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
I would say for you in this moment, since it's
so big, your baby's coming and you have.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
This when I know the experience I had with Jolie
and how I did freak out, So I don't want
that to happen again. But it's it is a trauma
kind of that's in my head that happened.

Speaker 4 (59:46):
I would say like for you, and I say this
to couples all the time, to eat different parties of
the couple depending on the situation, Like it, you kind
of have to be the hero in this moment, you know,
in the hospital with her and sort of setting aside
the part that's your I don't want to call it agenda,
but that's about you, you know that sense of like, wait,
she's rejecting me or somehow not being useful.

Speaker 6 (01:00:06):
To her, because that's not what it's about at all.
It doesn't sound like Janet.

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
It just sounds like there's a specific set of things
that you need to feel contained and being able to say, like,
you know what, I'm just going to give this to her.
You know, I'm just going to give this her and
it's not going to be about me in this moment,
and I'm going to kind of lean into the belief
that like this woman loves me, like she chose me,
she's here, after all, you guys have been through like
she's here, like here in the biggest way, she's having
your baby boy, right, you know, and just being able

(01:00:32):
to show up for her in that moment and I
and that kind of stuff is much easier when there's
that goodwill and a lot of emotional money in the bank.
You know, it's like, all right, I got this. I
could put my like like a personal agenda aside. And
you guys are like, you know, a little wovely in
that front, but like it would be a good time
to practice because it would be so lovely if this
could be a.

Speaker 6 (01:00:52):
Different experience in that regard.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
Yeah, I just think it's hard for people that don't
have anxiety to understand. And that's where I think it's frustrating. Yeah,
when you know, when we were when you thought said, oh, Mike,
are you rolling your eyes? And I'm like, he's going like,
I wasn't roll my eyes, well, but we could tell
that you were. I was just not having thoughts, right,
But your thoughts are that anxiety is a mind thing

(01:01:15):
and it's we're crazy, is basically how you make it seem.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
That's not at all. I'm asking questions yes, it doesn't
make sense to me because I don't suffer from anxiety
or lack of control in that realm. So I'm curious
because for like serious like in my logical brain, it
makes sense like I'm your husband. If I say it's
going to be okay, it's probably gooda. It's not a

(01:01:40):
medical question, like you know, if it's something seriously medical,
obviously i'd ask a professional. But something is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
You know, when people that suffer from anxiety, sometimes that's
just not enough for us. It's we need that extra
security and safety because we don't believe that, and then
our minds just get worse.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
How do you know that when it stops? Like how
do you like the doctor is enough? Or do you
need something else above that? Do you need something else
above that? Do you need a report that says that
this happens?

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
Or if I need a doctor? And that's all, that's
what I need to tell me, just like you know whatever,
if I need all.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
In all, First, I want to say I'm sorry that
you got worked up and emotional. I'm sorry that I
wasn't as understanding as you needed me to be in
the moment last night and today, and I greatly appreciate
Hillary being here today because I think she put it
well where for right now, since we're like days away,

(01:02:35):
I will go into it putting my agenda of feelings
aside about this and it's something we can pick up
way after the baby's here, just so I can better
understand and better help and that maybe possibly you can
understand my mindset as well. But for the time being,
in the immediate future, I will work very hard to

(01:02:58):
remain patient and know you're still concerned now but dedicated
to whatever you need in the hospital, that this experience
is a lot better and.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Other anxiety moving forward. Okay, Okay, I can't I'm Hillary.
Where can my listeners find you.

Speaker 6 (01:03:18):
At doctor Hillarygoulture dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Thank you for being here because.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
It's obviously amazing. Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
I really appreciate it. Okay, So next year we're going
to be traveling a lot, b a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah, what's new.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
With our house being built in Nashville and then obviously
recording the podcast here and everything else we got going
on a lot of back and forth.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
And a lot of carry on luggage I know, which
I never used to carry on until I met Jane.
She taught me how to pack.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Yeah, because he would put like he would put this,
He would put his shoes in the suitcase and be like,
my bag is so full. I'm like, that's because you
just put them right in the middle of your bag.
Like he doesn't know how to pack, but no I do.
Luckily he knows how. And I gotta tell you, A
Way Luggage is really great because I have a really
hard time finding a place to charge my phone in

(01:04:14):
the UH. In the airport, I'm constantly walking around trying
to find an empty plug, and especially in some of
those smaller airports, it's it's a challenge. So what's great
about a Way Luggage is that they have a TSA
compliant ejectable battery built into your carry on, so you
can charge your phone with the suitcase.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
This is huge with having the kids and having their
devices as well, to say, keep everyone charged and happy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Yeah, and they have a removable washable laundry bag, which.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Is my favorite part is how time right, Well, we're
somewhere we have to designate like one of our bags.
The one compartment is like the dirty.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
Clothes, and it's always your bag, it's always my bag.
But it's just so great because you can remove it
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(01:05:09):
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that was heavy off, That was that was tough. I
can't believe. I like ball, I feel so Oh, I

(01:05:32):
just I couldn't help it because I had I was
getting anxiety or just the your emotions around anxiety. Just
it was all in my chest and I was just like, oh,
here comes, it's coming.

Speaker 5 (01:05:42):
It's just gonna it's a big time right now. It's hard, and.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
It's just again, it's so hard. And I do empathize
with all three of you because you all deal with
someone that have anxiety.

Speaker 5 (01:05:54):
Crazy. No, that's what's so crazy, is like, so if
you think about it, you're right every single person in
this room is dealing with so like, it's so out there.
Everyone's dealing with someone.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Who Yeah, but it's just I mean, so I do
empathize with you guys, but it's just I will say
from the person again that has anxiety, you don't want
to feel this way. It's it's it's not fun. But
if you guys can just please try to remain as
calm as possible, that would be hot fome homework on it,
that would just be so great. A huge thank you
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(01:06:26):
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Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Go ahead the.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
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Thanks guys, Thank you. We will be talking to you

(01:07:34):
guys next from the hospital room.

Speaker 5 (01:07:35):
I like you windown later