October 23, 2024 • 56 mins
Jana and Allan get real about trust in their relationship and author Lysa TerKeurst is here to help them figure out what it takes to truly trust another person.
Lysa shares the red flags that could cause distrust in others, and we hear about how Jana reminded her it’s never too late to rebuild your trust.
Plus, Allan has a shocking reveal about Jana “swimming” with dolphins!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Jana Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hannah, No, hey, wait, are we starting right now? Okay,
oh we're now, We're going straight into it. No, Hannah's gone,
but Hannah's coming back. This is host chat everybody, and
Alan's starting and he's yelling at our producer. So Hannah,
you better get back on. Okay, I'm here, I'm not
I'm nervous.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
What do you have, Alan, Hannah, do you think that
Jana swam with the dolphins and the cove?
Speaker 4 (00:30):
I mean, I hope so.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
No, Janna, you did it? Hannah.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Do you know what the cove was? Hannah? The cove
was a mail out in the middle of the ocean.
It was so I'm not a cove.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
To sure the viewers of video, I don't know if
you guys can post the video.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Somehow, we can do it on wind down.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
But I'll show you the video and it's yeah, it's
like shot dive in in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So I was confused because I didn't think that they
would ever allow this, but apparently they do. And it
was not a cove, like it wasn't like a cute
little cove where you can see underneath you and.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
It was the medal of the ocean. It was the
middle of the ocean. There's no other way to describe it.
The video will show that, uh huh, murky walls and
the middle of the ocean in Florida.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So Alan, Alan gave me this like literally the stare
of death. No, remember when you kind of you didn't
snap me on the boat, but you definitely gave me.
You gave me your Scottish like this isn't a coved
Johanna when you were about to like because the guy's
(01:46):
like telling everybody what to do on the boat.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
So when the guys, the guy says, okay, sorry, just
then throw Okay, but the guy is like, okay, the
first thing you say is mask, and he tells you
mask three times. So mask, mask and then mask on,
mask on, mask on, and then you have to go
at the edge of the boat.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
He's like, and at that point he's basically saying, listen,
these are wild animals and you are swimming with them
and you're in their territory and so you know they're
not just gonna send.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Four shots in four years.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well we'll get to that. But so yeah, he says
mask on, mask on, mask on, and that's when everyone
needs to put their goggles on and then get to
the front of the boat and then you jump off
to just then look at them underneath the water and
then they'll sometimes swim around you. And so Alan was
the first to go because I was holding Roman and
(02:39):
when everyone said mask he said mask on, mask on,
mask on. It was Jace Jolie, and then there was
two sweet little instructor girls that were helping and uh,
nobody jumped out. Everyone got scared.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, and then he starts to give us a lecture
of it tape.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And yeahs all of it time and it's all of
it tame and it's not met can shut up, I know,
but it's a bit tim and I'm going to be
time and I pick you up and launch you in
that ocean. Min if you tell me about time and
once more, I'm notgging in.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, you were about to. And then when we were
trying to find more dolphins in the ocean, you I
was like, all right, babe, like mascot, mascot, And that's
when you gave me the this isn't the cove, Johanna,
I'm not about this.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
I'm like I didn't know so far from the cot.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I just figured it was a cove because who swims
in the middle of the ocean dolphins?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
I was lied to.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I didn't know, do trust me because this episode is
all about trust.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I trust you, but I think you were I think
you had the perception of what you wanted it to
look like. In the reality of what it was was
very different. And also the night before I looked into
it and I thought, there's not a cove in these
videos or these pictures.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, it has to be saved because they do it
with the I was telling me. He's like, we swim
with autistic children and we have we take I got
all these different people and like, and I said, what aged?
Because I wouldn't let Jase go in there. I was like,
he's too young. I'm like, what age are you letting
these kids?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Like?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Oh yeah, like you know four and up? And I'm
like what Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So the night before I looked at googled stuff right
data and starts. So since twenty and twenty and I
told you this, God a coach and I told you this,
since twenty twelve in Florida waters, there's been two hundred
and sixty nine shark bites. Okay, uh huh.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Sixty seven of those shark bites have been in Panama.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
City where we were swimming with dolphins in the middle
of the ocean. Sixty seven give up, Yeah, like this
was a week ago. I might be slightly wrong by
one or two.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I'm sorry. Sixty seven incidents in one year.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
No, since twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, okay, this is great. Okay, so there's been sixty
nine incidents. How many deaths?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Listen to me, Listen to me.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Two hundred and sixty nine shock bites bites recorded. That's
the ones that they know about. The other ones have
just been eating and they don't know about them.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I think they would.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
One hundred and sixty nine shock bites recorded since twenty twelve,
and in Florida waters.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
The biggest chunk of those chunk the good world.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
The biggest percentage has been at Panama City where we
were swimming with dolphins in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Sixty seven bytes.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Boom in since twenty twelve. Yeah, okay, can you guess
how many car accidents in Florida for a year? No,
it's a very valid question. How many car accidents do
you think happen in one year in Florida. One year?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Sorry, what did you say? How many shocks?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Okay? How many car accidents happen in one year in Florida?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
This is a bit of necessity or the then you
you need to drive around in your car.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You don't need to swim in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
How many? Just kick a guess, how many car accidents
do you think there are are in Florida? Would you
just please answer the question? You're so stubborn.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
That's so relevant, it's not it bails, releve no relevance
whatsoever to this.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You just take a guess because I'm just curious.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
One is the necessity and one is a choice. Okay,
what's the question?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Oh my gosh, how many car how many accidents? Car
accidents in a year in Florida?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Are I find an accident? Is it a bumm? No,
one's injured?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
You're killing me right now? How many ten thousand, four
hundred thousand?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Okay? Okay, what's your point?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
My point is the chances of actually, like, like she said,
the girl that was because here's the deal. Jolie was
so excited to go in that water and swim with dolphins.
And so when I'm asking, all right, what are the
statistical statistics, what are the facts when it comes to
all of this, because we risk our lives every day
we get car you can get a car accident.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
And what was the guy's response. Sharks don't swim.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, they don't swim near dolphins. He's like you, He's like,
you're not going to see they don't want to be
by the dolphins. They don't when they're all together like that,
they're they're not. There's not sharks around. He said something
that was to that effect where he was just like,
they don't. They don't like to be around each other,
so you know, and she was like, we only saw one,
(07:28):
like four in the last four years. So she saw
one a year. You've seen one shark a year.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Seen she's seen one.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Exactly. They don't they don't actually want to hurt us.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
This is a whole different conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I have a feeling somebody has a hard time not trusting.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Wow, Marquis Flora the Wolds.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
And I agree with the markiness, which was not my
favorite thing, which is why I didn't do it. It freaked
me out.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
So let's let's play a game. Here. Okay, let's play
a game.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Okay, what we're doing today, babe, Well today we're going
out in a boat. Forget the dolphins, right, forget the dolphins.
Take the dolphins out of the picture. Do they ever
going out in a boat? Probably a mile off shore
two dark murky waters in Florida to any area, which
again which is the highest the highest percentage of shark bites.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
So yeah, we're just going to go in a boat.
We're going to jump off, and we're going to swim.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
My issue with it was is just because.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You had just because you had dolphins in there, doesn't
make it safer, Like just mask it over there.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, that's going to someone who owns a motorcycle really
just can't I don't think can be invited into this conversation.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
My mother listens to this podcast.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And just say, you know, mom, he has he has
not written it because he doesn't have a license. It
just sits in our garage like a museum. All right,
Well that was fun. Did we did you have fun
on fall Break? Minus that, I thought the boat ride
was actually a lot of fun. The kids really enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
It was a great trip. Yeah, really good trip.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's really fun.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah, it was, it was. It was passing.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So let's change gears. We did all survive. Let's we
also think we need to live our lives too. Okay,
So we have Lisa Turkhurst coming on the show and
she's got a new book out called I Want to
Trust You But I Don't, which is also, in my opinion,
(09:32):
such a genius title for a book, because I think
that's a phrase that people. So many people have said,
I want to trust you, but.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I don't before an incident, an incident.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I think it could be both. It could be something.
It could be someone like I could probably have said
to someone I want to trust you, but I don't
because I've had so much tresture. Is trust issues in
the past, or I've been hurt before, or maybe someone
did you know, treated and I want to trust you
but I don't because you did X, Y and Z
(10:06):
or so I think it's just I think it's really
that bug. Title grabs me. Yeah, what's your relationship with trust?
Do you trust me?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Are there a trust a year? One hundred percent? My
relationship is not worth Yeah, it's with trust. But I
think there's a period in my life where I because
of because of mistrust and because of certain situations, I
almost became and Lisa touches on it a little bit
(10:40):
like trying not to become cineco mm hm. And unfortunately
I have become a slight cynicist and that's not and listen,
that's not a relationship thing. That's that's in general, like
my industry is, it's cutthroats, so it becomes a little
(11:04):
bit cynical of people's intentions.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
When do you think trust first came up in your life?
Trust issues? At what age? When was the first time
you're like, I don't trust this.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I think it was probably to trust myself.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Well, that's the hardest. That's always the hardest.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
For me when I was when I was a young footballer,
I was like, I don't trust myself to perform the
way I need to perform. So it was more it
was more of a belief thing, which kind of diminished
as I as I got older and more mature, and
shelf assurance took over. But I think my first memories
of trust but myself, like growing up, I had no
(11:44):
reason to mistrust anyone in my life.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Have you ever been in a relationship where someone's cheated? Yeah,
I mean, I know the answer, but I'm just like,
what what have you done with that? Not trusting someone?
Has that gone into uh? Like when someone betrays your trust?
What happens to you? Then? Can you can you retrust?
Or are you the person that's like I'm out, I'm
(12:08):
done gone?
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, unfortunately that's my That's the way I react that.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, is there a piece of you that's ever like,
do you think people can.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That's relationships, that's business, that's every every part of my life.
Now if I if I can't, If you've done something
but you've broken my trust, you're done, You're out.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Do you think there's a world where people can regain
and regrow trust in a relationship after something like that?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
I think so yeah, But just.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
For you personally, yeah, well no, because that's that's that's
a hard thing for for me because I'm I'm such
a believer that people can change and can you can
trust again? But I know for me, I just I
can't do it again because of all the trauma that
I've been through with trust that I just turn into
the worst version of myself or I get angry and
(13:11):
just like just like literally the ugliest version of myself
when I can't trust someone, so I but I but
I do believe that people can if someone like this,
you know, I sometimes I'll talk to people in my
DMS and this one girl is like, you know, he cheated,
and I just I really want to give it a try.
And I'm like, I really do believe that you can
trust again. You got to form a new relationship, you
(13:32):
got to form new boundaries. He's got to show up
or got you both have to show up and and
you know, work on things. But if he does it
again and again, and then that's when it's like, all right,
that keeps fraying the trust. But I do think you
can do it. I just spent eight years of my
life trying to do that. And then I'm like, okay,
I know now. I just I like, if anything we
all I know we talked about before, I'm like, if
(13:52):
anything ever happened with our trust, like I just couldn't
do it. It's I know, it's it takes over too much.
Which of my it's too it's it's like too much
of like a PTSD trauma for me. So I'm like,
if you were to cheat on me, like sorry, I
gave my ex husband the thirty chances, so I couldn't
give you. I couldn't give you a grace with that, and.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Then that's fine, and I wouldn't deserve grace because I'm
you'll now become a one and done and I'm always
been a one and done.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
What one and done? You do it once? So I'm done.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Okay, you don't have to worry about that. But it's
interesting though, because for you, though you have, there's this
I don't maybe you just don't trust other people because
I'm like, you say you trust me, but then why
are you not okay in this situation or you know,
a certain situation.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think I'll always trust you. They'll be they'll be
selling situations where you'll be in givin your movies. Yeah,
where I won't trust the lot of people.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, I think that's there. Because again, let's just relate
it back to the motorcycle. I trust you driving it.
I don't trust other people around you driving because you
don't have.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Your less I want.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
It's so it's just gonna sit in a rush you
I have.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Cut its legs off. It's done that. We'll just sat there.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I can't. Okay, We're going to take a break and
then get least done. Oh my goodness, gracious. Hi.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, first of all, you look beautiful.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And I was just telling my husband here.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That I love that he's your husband.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I need to But the book title itself is I
was like, this is probably one of my favorite book
titles ever, thank you, because everybody has said that at
least one time in their life.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, you know, if they have a belly button, probably
many times in their life.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah. Okay, So obviously you've been on you know, multiple
times on here, and we've shared a lot of life together,
a lot of good times, a lot of hard times.
And I'm curious with this book because how much of
(16:36):
your past did you put into this book given kind
of where you're at now in your relationship.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Well, the main focus of the past was just acknowledging
what happened that exacerbated the issues with trusts that I
was having, but also trying to figure out how to
live life alone and then stepping in to a new
relationship but being triggered because of past pain. And there's
(17:04):
such a paper thin line between present discernment, like discernment
that something's wrong right now or is this just a
trigger because of something that happened in the past hm
and not wanting to hold chas accountable for things that
my ex husband did.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, that's that's a tough one. There's I mean there's
it's been few, but there's been times when you're like,
I'm not your ex husband and I'm like, I know,
but I just I need to almost. Yes, you have
a full head of hair, flucky you.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
She just got that.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
She just got your accent with that one.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That was so good.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
But no, it's like, you know, it's it's hard to
and I hear you on that because in the beginning,
I was telling my therapist when I first started, you know,
dating Alan, I'm like, this is a this lovely period
of him being so sweet and kind to me. Is
the artist thing to trust? I'm not even fearful that
he's gonna cheat on me. I'm more fearful. I'm like,
do I trust this lovely? Is this real? Is he real?
(18:08):
Is this is like? And so there's different levels of
trusting things. That doesn't have to be the bad stuff either,
So that must have been.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So you know, sometimes when you live in a really
tough situation, like a relationship, that's not just dysfunctional but destructive.
That those dysfunctional patterns feel normal, and so to step
outside of normal feel scary very well, you know, I
relate to that on such a big level, and that's
(18:39):
why I knew that I had to take quite a
bit of time before even stepping into the dating world,
or else I would be attracted to the same dysfunction
as before because that felt normal to me. Unfortunately, so
I had to really work on myself to identify pattern
(19:00):
in my life that were normal because I had to
respond in a dysfunctional situation. I had to survive a
dysfunctional situation, and so there were a lot of things
that I had to untangle and acknowledge about myself. So
those seasons of you know, that long season of being
alone served me really well. I just had to make
(19:23):
the decision that I was going to tell myself the
right story because of what happened. So much of our trauma.
It's not just what happens to us, but it's the
story we tell ourselves because of what happened to us.
And so I had to work on not being so
attracted to dysfunction because dysfunction felt normal. But also I
had to work on the story I was going to
(19:43):
tell myself, what do I really believe about me?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Mm hmm. Yeah, No, that's a huge piece. And Alan
and I were talking about that too, because I said,
in your life, like, what was the first thing that
you didn't trust? And he said, you know himself? And
I'm like, that was the hardest piece for me post
divorce was to trust myself because, like you said, I've
fell right into the pattern of dating the same kind
of person, that same unstableness. And then you know, to
(20:08):
be able to trust yourself and go all right, what
is what is the story? Who actually am I? What
do I want life to look like? So that's that's
a tough piece. And then and then going all right,
once you trust yourself, you're like, it's it's that feels
foreign too, because you're like, do I even trust this piece?
Like how do how do I even? How do I
do this?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
So that's Lisa.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
In your book you talk about blind trust and wise trust.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
I've not read the section on that.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Can you elaborate a little bit more on that because
that kind of caught my eye when I was looking
through things today.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, sometimes, and especially I think in the Christian world,
we confuse loving unconditionally with trusting unconditionally. We're never called
to trust unconditionally. We're just not. And so I think
it's really wise for us to take a step back
and recognize that trust is the oxygen of all human relationships.
(21:04):
But there are requirements for trust to exist. You cannot
rebuild trust that continues to get broken. So even when
Jesus says we're to forgive seventy times seven, that doesn't
mean that we have to stay in close proximity with
that person. It may mean we have to create enough
separation in distance that if that person does not stop
doing the behavior that's so hurtful to us that from afar,
(21:27):
we can forgive them seventy times seven without getting destroyed
in the process. So trust is very conditional, and it
should be so shifting from blind trust feeling like it's
kind of my Christian obligation to trust because that's what
Christians do to wise trust, of recognizing not all people
are trustworthy. As a matter of fact, it's really interesting.
(21:49):
Do you care if I nerd out just a little
bit on the cylical term? I love this. So in
the Old Testament, the word betah is what's used for
trees trustworthiness. When batah is directed toward God, it's always
in a positive sense. When batah is directed toward other humans,
(22:09):
it's almost always in a negative sense. That doesn't mean
we shouldn't trust anyone, but what it does mean is
that we can't put our trust in people so much
so that they become the stability or the instability of
our life. We have to put our trust in God,
who is the stable one, and then recognize that we
(22:30):
have a choice when it comes to trusting people. And
in order for trust to be there, it requires safety
and it requires connection. My problem is that I prioritized
safety so high after my divorce because I just didn't
want to take the risk of new relationships. So when
(22:51):
I prioritize safety so high, connection with other people was
very low. Then other people sometimes they are so dead
for it to keep the relationship that they overlook red flags,
they excuse things they shouldn't excuse so that they can
have that connection, But then they diminish their own safety.
And so what the goal for wise trust is to
(23:14):
bring safety and connection back in balance, because we want
relationships that are that are have good connection, yes, but
wise trust also requires that we're safe in that relationship.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, well explained, Yeah, nice, Okay
this and you can you can pass on this too.
I'm just kind of curious because I'm a I'm a
big believer that I believe that, like in kind of
like you said, I believe if someone uh were to
cheat on someone that if they actually do what they
(23:49):
say and then don't cheat again, I believe trust can
be restored. Now we've talked about it in our marriage
that I know, just because of all the trauma that
I've had with past affairs, I couldn't give that grace
this go around. I just couldn't do it. I just
I just couldn't do it. And so what have you
(24:12):
kind of thought of how you would be able to hand?
And again, Chaz is an angel, we love him, but like,
have you kind of thought about what you could do
this next time around if that actually happened.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah? Well, I had to have a really honest conversation
with Chaz about this because in his previous marriage there
was infidelity on both sides. So you know, that was
a really tough thing for me to wrestle through, and
so we had to have a lot of honest conversations
(24:46):
about this, and I said the same thing as you.
I don't have it to give this time around, like
there will be no grace period. And it's not that
I don't want to have grace for any of your mistakes,
like I will have grace, lots of grace for your mistake,
but this one is just no, I'm not putting myself
through that again. And he said something that really helped
(25:07):
me a lot, and he said, Lisa, I am not
going to cheat on you because I'm never going to
cheat on myself again. And that gave me a different
kind of confidence to know that he was very in
tune with the horribly dark place that infidelity sent him
ten years before, and that he didn't want to do
(25:30):
that to himself, so he didn't want to do it
to me, but even more so, he didn't want to
ever do that to himself again. And he's so hyper
aware of the consequences, all of the destruction, all the damage,
all of the horrible dark places that that sent him,
that I believe him. And it's almost, in this strange way,
(25:51):
it's almost a relief for me to know he knows
the severity of those consequences for himself, because he's not
just being told how hard it would be. He's not
just being told by me, I don't have the grace
to give. But he has personally experienced that kind of
darkness and he doesn't ever want to return.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Mm hmm. Yeah, No, that's that's powerful because the ripple
effect is is it's not just you guys, it's it's
family is being torn apart, and yeah, and then just
feels awful.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
That's the worst thing ever, it really is. It real
divorce does the infidelity and the ends the destruction of
the divorce period, which can be worse mm hmm than
the actual infidelity and the actions. You also mentioned about
(26:52):
not becoming cynical because of things that have happened and
carrying that broken belief system into whether it's a new relationship,
whether it's a new business or whatever it may be.
So I'd appeared in my life which was kind of destructive,
and since then I have become a lot more cynical.
(27:15):
And I think it's a mistrusting not our relationship, but
it's a mistrust in people's intentions, whether it's whether it's business,
or whether it's whether it's sport, or whether it's professional sport.
I now have a thing in my head where I
won't trust you until I know I can trust you,
(27:36):
rather than it be and I used to be I'll
trust you until I can't trust you, but now I'm
almost like, I don't trust you until you can prove
to me that you can trust me.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
And that's.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Relationship, that's business, that's sport. And I've kind of carried
that for the last probably three three or four years,
and I'm trying to come out of it, but I
still have this. I still have this thing where if
I meet someone you in business of sport, my first
thought is, Okay, how are you, how are you gonna
(28:10):
how are you going to shaft me here? Or how
are you going to do it? And it's a it's
a horrible way to be. And I'm getting better now
and I'm slowly coming out of it. But I don't
have a I don't have a broken belief system, but
I have become a lot more cynical based on that
period in my life. Do you have any wants or
advice to to help with that?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, So, first of all, I want to say, of
course you have tentative feelings around trusting people because when
your trust has been broken over and over, it can
start to feel like all people are manipulative, or all
people are eventually going to hurt you, all people are
just in it for themselves, And so I just want
(28:55):
to say, of course you feel that way. I think
anybody who goes through enough experiences where they experience themselves
tells you not to trust people. Eventually you're going to
kind of get clued in that sometimes it is really
tough to trust people. But the important thing is, and
this I had to study this a lot because Jana knows.
(29:18):
Like I remember on our last podcast, Jana, I wrote
about you in the book by the Way, because you,
I was just saying, yeah, I don't think that I'm
ever gonna go there again. I feel like I'm too old.
But also I think I've just been through too much.
And you said to me, never too late, Lisa, It's
(29:38):
never too late, and then you referred to me on
other podcasts as never too late. Do y'all remember never
too late? And I just knew exactly what you're talking about.
My girls they would call me and like Janna mentioned,
never too late again, as you would kind of.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
No, it's just never too late.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
But it was so it was so encouraging to me.
But it really helped inspire the chapter on Red Flags
and Roots of Distrust. The purpose of that chapter is
to identify these eleven red flags, and they they're on
like various ends of the spectrum. So most severe is
(30:18):
immorality and probably one of the least severe is irresponsibility.
You know, so when you say you don't trust someone,
it could be because you think they don't have a
moral compass, or it's because the last time they said
they were going to do a favor for you, they
forgot and drop the ball, so that was irresponsible. But regardless,
we're using the same word trust for a whole spectrum
(30:40):
of occurrences, right, And so in this chapter the Eleven
Red Flags and Roots of Distrust, there's three purposes that
it's really crucial to look through. This is because it
will help us identify what are the red flags that
are actually emerging that are giving me these feeling that
(31:00):
I can't trust this person, and it helps to know
what category it is, where is it actually coming from.
So that's the first thing is to recognize what kind
of when I say I don't trust this person, what's
really at the heart of that, what are they doing
repetitively that makes me feel so on edge. The second
thing is if we don't tend well to those red
(31:24):
flags in a relationship, they will form roots of distrust,
and those roots of distrust create simmering resentments, and simmering
resentments is the number one killer of relationships today, so
it's really important. The third thing is red flags and
roots of distrust. As I was writing this, I finished
(31:45):
the chapter and then reread it, and I was like,
what the heck, Oh my gosh, I see some of
this in me, Like I do some of these things,
and I'm probably feeding a distrust in other people. So
it created self awareness, which was the third purpose of
that chapter that I didn't even know was going to
be a purpose of that chapter. But I think that's
(32:06):
one of the most important parts of the book because
trust is built time plus believable behavior, and so over
a course of time, if somebody constantly does something that's
behavior that wears away your trust, then trust cannot be built.
But if you have a conversation about it, they recognize
(32:29):
what is this thing that they're doing, or what is
this red flag that you've become aware of then you
can work on that theme. And so it may be
as simple as like, hey, Jana, it's really crucial that
you know you show up on time because when you
show up on time, that creates within me deeper trust
in you that you respect my time, that you care
(32:51):
about me, and that you know that we're going to
be able to go to things without me feeling the
anxiety of being late. And so you can have those conversations.
But even something as small as like not showing up
on time, over time can become a root of distrust,
which can create simmary resentments. So all of these eleven
red flags are really important to consider.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
But yeah, totally, But for him to go in like
straight up just not trusting someone, is that what piece
of that can can be? Is there anything in that
that can maybe help too, because maybe this person hasn't
even done anything like I I haven't you know, I'm
not going to cheat on you, but you might have
come in first because you've been cheated on your past
(33:33):
with that she's gonnait me over. I don't know if
you ever felt that way, but have you felt that
with previous relationships?
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Posture and my reference to becoming cynical was not just
based on my divorce. It's based on that talk that yeah, yeah, well,
there's loads of things in my life that happened that well,
that brought a lot of trauma to my life. But
the an add to that, I didn't trust my own
decision making because there was a it was a pay
(34:02):
where I was also irresponsible with some of my decision making.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
So it's a culmination of of everything.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
So it's not it's not a case of as soon
as I meet someone and I'm like, I don't trust you,
I don't. I don't say it to myself, I don't
trust you. It's almost like I'm just waiting on it, right, Okay,
when's it going to come?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Is that something you've done with me?
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Though I'm here and it's it's more.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
It's actually more in professional sport and in business than
that is in personal relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I am going to slightly disagree with you here because
of your house in the in the woods. There's this
can I share unless you don't want me to share?
When there can be when there's conflicts. Sometimes he goes
and it's a it's a made up place, but it's
a place for him where it's his cabin in the woods.
So his first instinct is to just be alone and
(34:55):
detach and be alone. And it's like, no, let's come together,
let's figure this out. Let's like, don't go to the woods,
you know what i mean. I'm always like when I
can see him going, I'm like, let's you know. But
it's like he just is like up, everyone's screwing me
over and she's gonna leave, and then I'm going to
go to my cabin and be alone in the woods,
you know. And I'm like no, no, no, like you're not.
I don't. I'm gonna confind you in the woods. Then
(35:15):
whenever cabin you're going to, I'm gonna find you. But
that piece, I'm like, I don't know sometimes why you
go to that place of everyone's going to abandon you
because something like that. I'm I'm here willing and like
trying to like work on it, you know, and any
not thing we have, like these big things, but you
know what i mean, Like that's just when it does happen.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
When it does happen, yeah, yeah, Well, sometimes the riskiness
of relationships can feel like too much to someone who's
had repetitive bad experiences. In a certain area of their
life with other people. And what I hear you saying is,
you know, in business and in sports, that just seems
(35:57):
to be a breeding ground for people taking advantage of
other people. And here's the thing about safety. Safety is
one of the crucial ingredients for trust. It's safety and connection.
But you don't need to just be told that you're safe.
You need to feel it for yourself. If you don't
feel it for yourself, then people can give lip service
(36:19):
all day long. But there's no way around that. It's
time plus believable behavior. So it's that believable behavior part.
It's their actions that show you over time that they
are trustworthy, that they are good, that they do have
your best interests in mind. And you know, there's really
(36:41):
no other way around it. And so of course you
feel skeptical, but you don't want your past hurt from
other people to start hindering your present and future relationships,
because skepticism has a way of not just wanting to
be a thought, it wants to be the consuming thought.
And so you know, while you're looking for believable behavior
(37:06):
in other people, but you also have to manage some
of those thoughts and instead of assuming that they're going
to hurt you just say I'm not going to assume
either way, but I am going to pay attention to
their behavior now. And you know that's there's really no
other way around it, just to look for it's time
plus believable behavior. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
My therapist is always saying too, like what is what
do you see today? You know, not what she felt
five years ago. It's like, what do you what do
you see today?
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Like?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
What is what is in front of you? What is
this person doing? You know? As opposed to letting in,
it's just it's hard right to sometimes stay in that
present state.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
It's really hard. And you know, alan you might enjoy
the last book that I wrote, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes.
It talks about how this was really eye opening for me,
how the mistake that I kept making is that I
was giving level ten access to people who hadn't proven
(38:06):
themselves trustworthy and they were only bringing like a level
three responsibility. And so I thought, well, I'm going to
put a boundary on them and make them be more responsible.
But we both know you cannot force another person to
change if they're unwilling or incapable of making those changes.
So this difference here, that's where dysfunction grows, that's where
(38:31):
skepticism grows. So what we have to do then is
put a boundary on ourselves and reduce the level of
access that we grant those people down to their demonstrated
level of responsibility. So we never want to give them
more access than what they've proven that they can be responsible.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
With that access.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Yeah, nice, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Do you feel like you go in on the top
or the bottom and not a position?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
John was actually really inconsistent because there's some people where
and it depends what the subject is. But there's some
situations that I'll go in and I'll almost say, Okay,
I'll go in and I'll give them access to this
information or this whatever it may be. And then there's
other times I'll go in and I'm just a completely
closed book, like you're getting nothing. Yep, you're getting nothing.
(39:21):
You can open up if you want, but I'm not
opening up. So I'm still not even I've not even
found that balance. So that's a good way of putting it.
So if I if I go on at a level ten,
level zero, if I go in at a level five
and keep myself at level five, almost until I can
see people creeping towards that. Then I'll feel I'll get
less anxiety about like even like IP I get. I
(39:43):
get really paranoid about people stealing IP. Like yesterday, I'm
on a call to a guy. He's like, yeah, send
me over your report on this player, and I've just
explained to them that this is my highest level of
offering product I offer.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
I was like, you, I'll send it over.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
What you need to sign an NDA, and he's like, yeah, no,
Wordy's no problem at all. He's like, send the NDA
one day and then send your report on its same
So straight away I go to okay, NDA, fustling in
my head.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I mean, I definitely have seen you go in on
both both things, and you were you don't trust a
lot of people right off the bat. It takes a
it takes a minute, but it's not a bad thing.
I don't think. I don't think that's a bad thing.
I sometimes have trusted way too much.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Me too, I have too, and so I have to
be careful not to swing the pendulum from being the
person who trusted everybody with everything to trusting nobody with anything.
You know, But you can also extend people limited trust.
You don't have to. It's not a all or nothing thing.
You know, you can trust them with a little bit
and see if they're good stewards of that little bit
(40:51):
of trust, and then increase it over time. But it
all requires time. You know.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
What do you think is the biggest red flag that
you that you write about, especially in the book Inconsistency?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Absolutely, yep, when someone it's so confusing and so hard
for me and such a huge trigger when somebody is
great for a certain period of time, but then they
all of a sudden shift really quickly into not so
great and then shift back to that love bombing of no, no, no, no,
(41:27):
I really am great and you're great, and we're great
in all of that. And that's one of the things
that I love so much about Chaz. He is very
very consistent. And of course, I mean, like in all relationships,
we have things we want to work on. But I
love his consistency. I love that I can count on
when he wakes up in the morning, he's going to
(41:48):
be happy. I can count on that, you know. I
know that I can count on him to be willing
to circle back and talk to me about things, even
if he needs to go to his equivalent of the
cabin in the woods or you know, but that consistency
has been so, so so important to me. Another one
is incongruity. You know. It's when someone's insides don't match
(42:12):
their outsides, and so they say something that gives the
appearance that they're one way, but inside your experience with
them is very, very different than what they're portraying, and
so that incongruity creates so much friction. And honestly, I
saw in my previous relationship that it was the incongruity
(42:37):
that in the end made me finally just stand up
and say enough, Like, I'm not walking away from this relationship,
but I am accepting the reality that if you don't
want to change, I cannot change you. I have been
working harder on you than you're working on yourself, and
the insides don't match the outsides, and oftentimes what you
(43:00):
say on the outside the inside takes over and becomes
activities that I'm no longer willing to be subject to.
So I think some of those, and of course, immorality
is a huge one. You want someone to have a
moral compass, you know, Consistency and incongruity are two of
the other red flags that are really really for me,
(43:20):
really crucial.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, I feel like too, where I find sometimes trigger
is coming up is where I'm like, you say this
and then someone it says. If someone says something and
then they say something else we're on the same subject,
I'm like, wait, which one is it? Like, I'm like,
because you said this and now it's this, So it's
like I have a hard time trusting that piece of things. Yeah,
(43:43):
And that's like a massive trigger from the past too,
because it doesn't feel consistent like you just said, it
goes back to and I'm like, oh, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
It is tough. And another one that is really triggering
to me is insincerity. When someone says something but you
walk away and you're like, I don't think that person
really meant what they said. I think I think they
were trying to give some kind of impression that they
like me more than they actually like me, And I
(44:14):
don't trust what they're going to say, Like they say
one thing to me, but it feels so insincere because
I just have a feeling you're going to say something
else to someone else. And so that insincerity really became
bothersome to me. And here's the thing about their eleven
red flags too, is that they're going to be different
levels of seriousness for different people, based on your past history,
(44:36):
based on your experiences, based on just how you're wired.
So like some people, insincerity may not be that big
of a deal. Maybe they're in a shallow industry and
they they've dealt with that so long that it doesn't
really hit them the way that it would hit me,
you know, And so you know, I think it's I
(44:56):
think it's That's why that's one of my most favorite
parts of the book is just because I think it
creates a lot of relational awareness and self awareness and
can become really helpful when you get that ick feeling
that you don't trust someone but you can't quite figure
out why. That chapter will help you figure out why.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
For someone that's listening that is going through obviously trust issues,
get the book, But what is the biggest kind of
I don't want to say takeaway, but to be able
to trust again. I know it's time and consistency, but
is there something else where You're like, this is something
(45:46):
that I would encourage people to know or to do.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yes. So in the chapter on rips and repairs. For
every rip in a relationship, there has to be a repair.
You can't skip that process. And if it's a really
big rip, then it's going to need a really big repair.
And I know you can probably relate to this, Jenna,
is you know one of the very first steps on
(46:10):
a pretty big rip in a relationship is full disclosure.
Because if there isn't full disclosure, and if what happens
is they're only willing to admit what you've caught them doing,
then that's going to be a really hard dynamic to
repair trust in, especially if they don't give a full
(46:32):
disclosure and you catch them, but then you continue to
find out more information that they weren't honest about up front.
That's going to make that repair process like really really
really hard, if not impossible. But the other thing is
is not just the full disclosure, but also recognizing they
(46:54):
need to recognize what this costs you, because every trauma
is too parts it's fact and it's impact. So there's
the fact of what they did that they need to
you know, repent from or say they're sorry or own
it whatever. But then they they're going to have to
be really patient with you as the impact becomes like
(47:20):
that's almost like when you have the triggers. That's when
you're made aware of how much this cost you. And
they've got to be really sensitive to that cost and
be incredibly patient. And here's how you know someone is
really sincere about wanting to repair or not repair, is
if you get triggered in your pain and you say, hey,
can I look at your phone because I'm just not
(47:43):
feeling good about when I just walked in, I saw
you swipe really quick and put it in your back pocket,
and it's making me incredibly anxious. Their response to that
will tell you a lot. If they say, seriously, you're
not over this, like we're going to deal with this again,
Like you're crazy, I'm not doing anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I have so many triggers and chills happening in my
body right now.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I know, right. And so if that's their response, Look,
where there's smoke, there is a fire, and whether it
is a candle fire or whether it's a full blown
house fire, regardless, even if you hold your cand over
a candle long enough, you're going to get burned. So
where there's smoke, there is a fire. You may not
know what the fire is, but that's not a good
(48:29):
sign when they get super defensive like that and accusatory
towards you. If the response is, of course, you need
to look at my phone, like here's my phone, here's
my password, and if you have any questions, tell me
what you need. Do you need to look at the
phone and that's it. Do you need to look at
the phone and talk about it? Do you need me
(48:49):
to sit down and hold you for a minute because
I want to assure you you're safe, Like how can
I best assure you you're safe right now? Then that
kind of response is all so such an amazing trust
builder because you know that they have enough humility to
care about you in that moment, And chances are if
(49:10):
they're being that open and honest, then that trigger wasn't
because of present concerns. It may have just been a
trigger because of past pain.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
M Yeah, that piece is. I feel like that's always
really hard for them, Like the perpetrator wants to sweep
it and move on and like hurry up and go,
let's you know, I've I told you, I'm sorry and
I'm changing and I'm doing X, Y and Z and
now kind of get over it. And I remember that
being something in my past too, where I'm just like
our therapist had said one time, imagine you were driving
(49:43):
a car and you got into the worst car ecid,
her legs were completely cut off. Would you tell her
to just move on and she has to get over
it in two months, like you chopped her legs off,
you know, like she can't walk, and even then, I
don't think anything visually helped that situation. But but yeah,
I thought it was a good visualize visualization. But yeah,
(50:05):
it's you know, it's I get wanting to like move
on and not get into it. But like you said,
like those gifts that you can give that person that
you hurt, the trust, having that patience, I know it's hard,
but you also cause this impact, like you know, so.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Absolutely there's a there's a good saying that Chas has
from years and years and years of going to AA meetings,
And it's nine miles in, nine miles out. If it
took you nine miles to get into this situation, it's
going to take you nine miles to get out of it.
So like the more severe the distrust that has formed,
(50:40):
the more severe the broken trust, the more you know
length it's going to take to repair it. But the
most important thing to remember is you cannot repair trust
that continues to get broken.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Like that is the biggest piece, one thousand percent. That's
what I tell people that will DM me. And I'm like, listen,
I'm always willing to give a grace at one time,
but if I my girl, if it happens again, you
gotta like this is that's not it? You know, like
they're going to keep doing it again and again.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
We all make mistakes. Look, yeah, all make mistakes, but
there is such a big difference between a mistake and
a pattern pattern. Yep, you know. A mistake is something
like Okay, we can go to counseling for this, we
can talk about this whatever. But when it is a
pattern of behavior, that is the breeding ground for dysfunction,
(51:27):
which is the breeding ground left unaddressed for destructive realities
and a relationship. And there's a big difference between a
difficult marriage and a destructive marriage. And I didn't understand
that for a long time, but I understand it now.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Girl, do we ever? And look at us now? You
know we've really come a long way.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
We really have, And you are so right. It is
never too late, Jana.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
It is never too late for anyone. And can I
just what is your to close this out? What is
your favorite Bible verse on trust? One of them? I
know there's a bunch.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Yeah, well, believe it or not, it's going to be
one that is about the Lord. And it doesn't even
have the word trust in it. But it's Matthew five
eight blessed or the pure in heart, for they will
see God. And the reason I love that so much
is it doesn't say blessed is the perfect person. It
doesn't say blessed is the person with the perfect life
(52:24):
that they'll see God. No, it's blessed as that person
who wants to see God, and then they will. And
the more I know that God is with me and
that He is the stabilizing force of my life, the
less fearful I am of the risk that all relationships require.
(52:46):
And so that one became really important to me. And
let me, can I close with just a really quick story,
jan I can.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Say, please, oh my gosh, yes, Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
So at the very end of the book there's a
chapter called Rebellious Acts of Resisience. And you know me,
I'm not your friend that you would ever describe as rebellious, right.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
No, I have to like teach you how to say
the fuc k word.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
No, not gonna.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
I won't say it exactly. She's like, only Jana I
can say that.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
But okay. So I went to the beach with a
couple of my friends. Their names were Jess and Anne,
and we got down to the beach and the one
thing that I really wanted was a little cooler with
ice in it to put my egg salad sandwich, my
little fruit, my diet coke, and my water and it
I wanted to be on ice. And so that's like
(53:39):
a really important part of my beach trip. I know
that that sounds boring, but that's me. Okay. Well, I
went to use the ice maker at the place we were at,
and the ice maker was broken. And I do not
know why I had such an out of proportion reaction
ice maker being broken, but I was literally standing in
the kitchen with my fist going.
Speaker 5 (54:01):
If he would have never cheated, then I would still
be married. And if I was still married, he would
know how to fix the ice maker. And now I
can't have ice. And another thing he's ruined for me
is my beach to day.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Okay, that is so immature, and I recognize that, but whatever, Okay.
I was very upset and I stopped myself and I
thought to myself, I keep saying I can't fix the
ice maker, but what if I could? So I googled
instructions to see. I'm like, what's the worst that can happen?
It's already broken. I break it worse. And I googled instructions.
(54:35):
I cannot follow written instructions to save my life. But
then I remembered the gift of the YouTube. So youtubed
instructions and there's a video and Jana as God is
my witness. I fixed that ice maker, and when that
ice came down, it was such an epic moment of
(54:55):
victory for me because what I realized is, yes, that's
took a lot from me, it really did, But that
season could also give me a lot if only I
will watch. I cannot say I can't and I don't
because those cants and dolts will turn into won't. Sometimes
it's true we can't. Sometimes it's true we don't. But
(55:18):
I don't want to reduce my life down to the
limitations of living hurt and broken trust. While it can
be life altering. It doesn't have to be life ruining.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
I love that, and I one thousand percent agree with you. Yeah,
I love it. Well, thank you for coming on. I'm
going to order the book because I love you and
it's we all, you know, we all, whether it's friendships, marriages,
pass you all struggle with trust, so everyone will get
(55:51):
I want to trust you, but I don't available now.
Thank you so much, Thank you all right? How are
feeling about trust, babe? Were good? Yeah? I trust you.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
I trust you, sir?
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Okay, good, Let's go somewer sharks all right.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Bye,
Wind Down with Jana Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hannah, No, hey, wait, are we starting right now? Okay,
oh we're now, We're going straight into it. No, Hannah's gone,
but Hannah's coming back. This is host chat everybody, and
Alan's starting and he's yelling at our producer. So Hannah,
you better get back on. Okay, I'm here, I'm not
I'm nervous.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
What do you have, Alan, Hannah, do you think that
Jana swam with the dolphins and the cove?
Speaker 4 (00:30):
I mean, I hope so.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
No, Janna, you did it? Hannah.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Do you know what the cove was? Hannah? The cove
was a mail out in the middle of the ocean.
It was so I'm not a cove.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
To sure the viewers of video, I don't know if
you guys can post the video.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Somehow, we can do it on wind down.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
But I'll show you the video and it's yeah, it's
like shot dive in in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So I was confused because I didn't think that they
would ever allow this, but apparently they do. And it
was not a cove, like it wasn't like a cute
little cove where you can see underneath you and.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
It was the medal of the ocean. It was the
middle of the ocean. There's no other way to describe it.
The video will show that, uh huh, murky walls and
the middle of the ocean in Florida.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So Alan, Alan gave me this like literally the stare
of death. No, remember when you kind of you didn't
snap me on the boat, but you definitely gave me.
You gave me your Scottish like this isn't a coved
Johanna when you were about to like because the guy's
(01:46):
like telling everybody what to do on the boat.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
So when the guys, the guy says, okay, sorry, just
then throw Okay, but the guy is like, okay, the
first thing you say is mask, and he tells you
mask three times. So mask, mask and then mask on,
mask on, mask on, and then you have to go
at the edge of the boat.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
He's like, and at that point he's basically saying, listen,
these are wild animals and you are swimming with them
and you're in their territory and so you know they're
not just gonna send.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Four shots in four years.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well we'll get to that. But so yeah, he says
mask on, mask on, mask on, and that's when everyone
needs to put their goggles on and then get to
the front of the boat and then you jump off
to just then look at them underneath the water and
then they'll sometimes swim around you. And so Alan was
the first to go because I was holding Roman and
(02:39):
when everyone said mask he said mask on, mask on,
mask on. It was Jace Jolie, and then there was
two sweet little instructor girls that were helping and uh,
nobody jumped out. Everyone got scared.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, and then he starts to give us a lecture
of it tape.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And yeahs all of it time and it's all of
it tame and it's not met can shut up, I know,
but it's a bit tim and I'm going to be
time and I pick you up and launch you in
that ocean. Min if you tell me about time and
once more, I'm notgging in.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, you were about to. And then when we were
trying to find more dolphins in the ocean, you I
was like, all right, babe, like mascot, mascot, And that's
when you gave me the this isn't the cove, Johanna,
I'm not about this.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
I'm like I didn't know so far from the cot.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I just figured it was a cove because who swims
in the middle of the ocean dolphins?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
I was lied to.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I didn't know, do trust me because this episode is
all about trust.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I trust you, but I think you were I think
you had the perception of what you wanted it to
look like. In the reality of what it was was
very different. And also the night before I looked into
it and I thought, there's not a cove in these
videos or these pictures.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, it has to be saved because they do it
with the I was telling me. He's like, we swim
with autistic children and we have we take I got
all these different people and like, and I said, what aged?
Because I wouldn't let Jase go in there. I was like,
he's too young. I'm like, what age are you letting
these kids?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Like?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Oh yeah, like you know four and up? And I'm
like what Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So the night before I looked at googled stuff right
data and starts. So since twenty and twenty and I
told you this, God a coach and I told you this,
since twenty twelve in Florida waters, there's been two hundred
and sixty nine shark bites. Okay, uh huh.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Sixty seven of those shark bites have been in Panama.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
City where we were swimming with dolphins in the middle
of the ocean. Sixty seven give up, Yeah, like this
was a week ago. I might be slightly wrong by
one or two.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I'm sorry. Sixty seven incidents in one year.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
No, since twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, okay, this is great. Okay, so there's been sixty
nine incidents. How many deaths?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Listen to me, Listen to me.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Two hundred and sixty nine shock bites bites recorded. That's
the ones that they know about. The other ones have
just been eating and they don't know about them.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I think they would.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
One hundred and sixty nine shock bites recorded since twenty twelve,
and in Florida waters.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
The biggest chunk of those chunk the good world.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
The biggest percentage has been at Panama City where we
were swimming with dolphins in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Sixty seven bytes.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Boom in since twenty twelve. Yeah, okay, can you guess
how many car accidents in Florida for a year? No,
it's a very valid question. How many car accidents do
you think happen in one year in Florida. One year?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Sorry, what did you say? How many shocks?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Okay? How many car accidents happen in one year in Florida?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
This is a bit of necessity or the then you
you need to drive around in your car.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You don't need to swim in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
How many? Just kick a guess, how many car accidents
do you think there are are in Florida? Would you
just please answer the question? You're so stubborn.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
That's so relevant, it's not it bails, releve no relevance
whatsoever to this.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You just take a guess because I'm just curious.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
One is the necessity and one is a choice. Okay,
what's the question?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Oh my gosh, how many car how many accidents? Car
accidents in a year in Florida?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Are I find an accident? Is it a bumm? No,
one's injured?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
You're killing me right now? How many ten thousand, four
hundred thousand?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Okay? Okay, what's your point?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
My point is the chances of actually, like, like she said,
the girl that was because here's the deal. Jolie was
so excited to go in that water and swim with dolphins.
And so when I'm asking, all right, what are the
statistical statistics, what are the facts when it comes to
all of this, because we risk our lives every day
we get car you can get a car accident.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
And what was the guy's response. Sharks don't swim.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, they don't swim near dolphins. He's like you, He's like,
you're not going to see they don't want to be
by the dolphins. They don't when they're all together like that,
they're they're not. There's not sharks around. He said something
that was to that effect where he was just like,
they don't. They don't like to be around each other,
so you know, and she was like, we only saw one,
(07:28):
like four in the last four years. So she saw
one a year. You've seen one shark a year.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Seen she's seen one.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Exactly. They don't they don't actually want to hurt us.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
This is a whole different conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I have a feeling somebody has a hard time not trusting.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Wow, Marquis Flora the Wolds.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
And I agree with the markiness, which was not my
favorite thing, which is why I didn't do it. It freaked
me out.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
So let's let's play a game. Here. Okay, let's play
a game.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Okay, what we're doing today, babe, Well today we're going
out in a boat. Forget the dolphins, right, forget the dolphins.
Take the dolphins out of the picture. Do they ever
going out in a boat? Probably a mile off shore
two dark murky waters in Florida to any area, which
again which is the highest the highest percentage of shark bites.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
So yeah, we're just going to go in a boat.
We're going to jump off, and we're going to swim.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
My issue with it was is just because.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You had just because you had dolphins in there, doesn't
make it safer, Like just mask it over there.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, that's going to someone who owns a motorcycle really
just can't I don't think can be invited into this conversation.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
My mother listens to this podcast.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And just say, you know, mom, he has he has
not written it because he doesn't have a license. It
just sits in our garage like a museum. All right,
Well that was fun. Did we did you have fun
on fall Break? Minus that, I thought the boat ride
was actually a lot of fun. The kids really enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
It was a great trip. Yeah, really good trip.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's really fun.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah, it was, it was. It was passing.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So let's change gears. We did all survive. Let's we
also think we need to live our lives too. Okay,
So we have Lisa Turkhurst coming on the show and
she's got a new book out called I Want to
Trust You But I Don't, which is also, in my opinion,
(09:32):
such a genius title for a book, because I think
that's a phrase that people. So many people have said,
I want to trust you, but.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
I don't before an incident, an incident.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I think it could be both. It could be something.
It could be someone like I could probably have said
to someone I want to trust you, but I don't
because I've had so much tresture. Is trust issues in
the past, or I've been hurt before, or maybe someone
did you know, treated and I want to trust you
but I don't because you did X, Y and Z
(10:06):
or so I think it's just I think it's really
that bug. Title grabs me. Yeah, what's your relationship with trust?
Do you trust me?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Are there a trust a year? One hundred percent? My
relationship is not worth Yeah, it's with trust. But I
think there's a period in my life where I because
of because of mistrust and because of certain situations, I
almost became and Lisa touches on it a little bit
(10:40):
like trying not to become cineco mm hm. And unfortunately
I have become a slight cynicist and that's not and listen,
that's not a relationship thing. That's that's in general, like
my industry is, it's cutthroats, so it becomes a little
(11:04):
bit cynical of people's intentions.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
When do you think trust first came up in your life?
Trust issues? At what age? When was the first time
you're like, I don't trust this.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I think it was probably to trust myself.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Well, that's the hardest. That's always the hardest.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
For me when I was when I was a young footballer,
I was like, I don't trust myself to perform the
way I need to perform. So it was more it
was more of a belief thing, which kind of diminished
as I as I got older and more mature, and
shelf assurance took over. But I think my first memories
of trust but myself, like growing up, I had no
(11:44):
reason to mistrust anyone in my life.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Have you ever been in a relationship where someone's cheated? Yeah,
I mean, I know the answer, but I'm just like,
what what have you done with that? Not trusting someone?
Has that gone into uh? Like when someone betrays your trust?
What happens to you? Then? Can you can you retrust?
Or are you the person that's like I'm out, I'm
(12:08):
done gone?
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, unfortunately that's my That's the way I react that.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, is there a piece of you that's ever like,
do you think people can.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That's relationships, that's business, that's every every part of my life.
Now if I if I can't, If you've done something
but you've broken my trust, you're done, You're out.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Do you think there's a world where people can regain
and regrow trust in a relationship after something like that?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
I think so yeah, But just.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
For you personally, yeah, well no, because that's that's that's
a hard thing for for me because I'm I'm such
a believer that people can change and can you can
trust again? But I know for me, I just I
can't do it again because of all the trauma that
I've been through with trust that I just turn into
the worst version of myself or I get angry and
(13:11):
just like just like literally the ugliest version of myself
when I can't trust someone, so I but I but
I do believe that people can if someone like this,
you know, I sometimes I'll talk to people in my
DMS and this one girl is like, you know, he cheated,
and I just I really want to give it a try.
And I'm like, I really do believe that you can
trust again. You got to form a new relationship, you
(13:32):
got to form new boundaries. He's got to show up
or got you both have to show up and and
you know, work on things. But if he does it
again and again, and then that's when it's like, all right,
that keeps fraying the trust. But I do think you
can do it. I just spent eight years of my
life trying to do that. And then I'm like, okay,
I know now. I just I like, if anything we
all I know we talked about before, I'm like, if
(13:52):
anything ever happened with our trust, like I just couldn't
do it. It's I know, it's it takes over too much.
Which of my it's too it's it's like too much
of like a PTSD trauma for me. So I'm like,
if you were to cheat on me, like sorry, I
gave my ex husband the thirty chances, so I couldn't
give you. I couldn't give you a grace with that, and.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Then that's fine, and I wouldn't deserve grace because I'm
you'll now become a one and done and I'm always
been a one and done.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
What one and done? You do it once? So I'm done.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Okay, you don't have to worry about that. But it's
interesting though, because for you, though you have, there's this
I don't maybe you just don't trust other people because
I'm like, you say you trust me, but then why
are you not okay in this situation or you know,
a certain situation.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think I'll always trust you. They'll be they'll be
selling situations where you'll be in givin your movies. Yeah,
where I won't trust the lot of people.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, I think that's there. Because again, let's just relate
it back to the motorcycle. I trust you driving it.
I don't trust other people around you driving because you
don't have.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Your less I want.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
It's so it's just gonna sit in a rush you
I have.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Cut its legs off. It's done that. We'll just sat there.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I can't. Okay, We're going to take a break and
then get least done. Oh my goodness, gracious. Hi.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, first of all, you look beautiful.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And I was just telling my husband here.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That I love that he's your husband.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I need to But the book title itself is I
was like, this is probably one of my favorite book
titles ever, thank you, because everybody has said that at
least one time in their life.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, you know, if they have a belly button, probably
many times in their life.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah. Okay, So obviously you've been on you know, multiple
times on here, and we've shared a lot of life together,
a lot of good times, a lot of hard times.
And I'm curious with this book because how much of
(16:36):
your past did you put into this book given kind
of where you're at now in your relationship.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Well, the main focus of the past was just acknowledging
what happened that exacerbated the issues with trusts that I
was having, but also trying to figure out how to
live life alone and then stepping in to a new
relationship but being triggered because of past pain. And there's
(17:04):
such a paper thin line between present discernment, like discernment
that something's wrong right now or is this just a
trigger because of something that happened in the past hm
and not wanting to hold chas accountable for things that
my ex husband did.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, that's that's a tough one. There's I mean there's
it's been few, but there's been times when you're like,
I'm not your ex husband and I'm like, I know,
but I just I need to almost. Yes, you have
a full head of hair, flucky you.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
She just got that.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
She just got your accent with that one.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That was so good.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
But no, it's like, you know, it's it's hard to
and I hear you on that because in the beginning,
I was telling my therapist when I first started, you know,
dating Alan, I'm like, this is a this lovely period
of him being so sweet and kind to me. Is
the artist thing to trust? I'm not even fearful that
he's gonna cheat on me. I'm more fearful. I'm like,
do I trust this lovely? Is this real? Is he real?
(18:08):
Is this is like? And so there's different levels of
trusting things. That doesn't have to be the bad stuff either,
So that must have been.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
So you know, sometimes when you live in a really
tough situation, like a relationship, that's not just dysfunctional but destructive.
That those dysfunctional patterns feel normal, and so to step
outside of normal feel scary very well, you know, I
relate to that on such a big level, and that's
(18:39):
why I knew that I had to take quite a
bit of time before even stepping into the dating world,
or else I would be attracted to the same dysfunction
as before because that felt normal to me. Unfortunately, so
I had to really work on myself to identify pattern
(19:00):
in my life that were normal because I had to
respond in a dysfunctional situation. I had to survive a
dysfunctional situation, and so there were a lot of things
that I had to untangle and acknowledge about myself. So
those seasons of you know, that long season of being
alone served me really well. I just had to make
(19:23):
the decision that I was going to tell myself the
right story because of what happened. So much of our trauma.
It's not just what happens to us, but it's the
story we tell ourselves because of what happened to us.
And so I had to work on not being so
attracted to dysfunction because dysfunction felt normal. But also I
had to work on the story I was going to
(19:43):
tell myself, what do I really believe about me?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Mm hmm. Yeah, No, that's a huge piece. And Alan
and I were talking about that too, because I said,
in your life, like, what was the first thing that
you didn't trust? And he said, you know himself? And
I'm like, that was the hardest piece for me post
divorce was to trust myself because, like you said, I've
fell right into the pattern of dating the same kind
of person, that same unstableness. And then you know, to
(20:08):
be able to trust yourself and go all right, what
is what is the story? Who actually am I? What
do I want life to look like? So that's that's
a tough piece. And then and then going all right,
once you trust yourself, you're like, it's it's that feels
foreign too, because you're like, do I even trust this piece?
Like how do how do I even? How do I
do this?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
So that's Lisa.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
In your book you talk about blind trust and wise trust.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
I've not read the section on that.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Can you elaborate a little bit more on that because
that kind of caught my eye when I was looking
through things today.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, sometimes, and especially I think in the Christian world,
we confuse loving unconditionally with trusting unconditionally. We're never called
to trust unconditionally. We're just not. And so I think
it's really wise for us to take a step back
and recognize that trust is the oxygen of all human relationships.
(21:04):
But there are requirements for trust to exist. You cannot
rebuild trust that continues to get broken. So even when
Jesus says we're to forgive seventy times seven, that doesn't
mean that we have to stay in close proximity with
that person. It may mean we have to create enough
separation in distance that if that person does not stop
doing the behavior that's so hurtful to us that from afar,
(21:27):
we can forgive them seventy times seven without getting destroyed
in the process. So trust is very conditional, and it
should be so shifting from blind trust feeling like it's
kind of my Christian obligation to trust because that's what
Christians do to wise trust, of recognizing not all people
are trustworthy. As a matter of fact, it's really interesting.
(21:49):
Do you care if I nerd out just a little
bit on the cylical term? I love this. So in
the Old Testament, the word betah is what's used for
trees trustworthiness. When batah is directed toward God, it's always
in a positive sense. When batah is directed toward other humans,
(22:09):
it's almost always in a negative sense. That doesn't mean
we shouldn't trust anyone, but what it does mean is
that we can't put our trust in people so much
so that they become the stability or the instability of
our life. We have to put our trust in God,
who is the stable one, and then recognize that we
(22:30):
have a choice when it comes to trusting people. And
in order for trust to be there, it requires safety
and it requires connection. My problem is that I prioritized
safety so high after my divorce because I just didn't
want to take the risk of new relationships. So when
(22:51):
I prioritize safety so high, connection with other people was
very low. Then other people sometimes they are so dead
for it to keep the relationship that they overlook red flags,
they excuse things they shouldn't excuse so that they can
have that connection, But then they diminish their own safety.
And so what the goal for wise trust is to
(23:14):
bring safety and connection back in balance, because we want
relationships that are that are have good connection, yes, but
wise trust also requires that we're safe in that relationship.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, well explained, Yeah, nice, Okay
this and you can you can pass on this too.
I'm just kind of curious because I'm a I'm a
big believer that I believe that, like in kind of
like you said, I believe if someone uh were to
cheat on someone that if they actually do what they
(23:49):
say and then don't cheat again, I believe trust can
be restored. Now we've talked about it in our marriage
that I know, just because of all the trauma that
I've had with past affairs, I couldn't give that grace
this go around. I just couldn't do it. I just
I just couldn't do it. And so what have you
(24:12):
kind of thought of how you would be able to hand?
And again, Chaz is an angel, we love him, but like,
have you kind of thought about what you could do
this next time around if that actually happened.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah? Well, I had to have a really honest conversation
with Chaz about this because in his previous marriage there
was infidelity on both sides. So you know, that was
a really tough thing for me to wrestle through, and
so we had to have a lot of honest conversations
(24:46):
about this, and I said the same thing as you.
I don't have it to give this time around, like
there will be no grace period. And it's not that
I don't want to have grace for any of your mistakes,
like I will have grace, lots of grace for your mistake,
but this one is just no, I'm not putting myself
through that again. And he said something that really helped
(25:07):
me a lot, and he said, Lisa, I am not
going to cheat on you because I'm never going to
cheat on myself again. And that gave me a different
kind of confidence to know that he was very in
tune with the horribly dark place that infidelity sent him
ten years before, and that he didn't want to do
(25:30):
that to himself, so he didn't want to do it
to me, but even more so, he didn't want to
ever do that to himself again. And he's so hyper
aware of the consequences, all of the destruction, all the damage,
all of the horrible dark places that that sent him,
that I believe him. And it's almost, in this strange way,
(25:51):
it's almost a relief for me to know he knows
the severity of those consequences for himself, because he's not
just being told how hard it would be. He's not
just being told by me, I don't have the grace
to give. But he has personally experienced that kind of
darkness and he doesn't ever want to return.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Mm hmm. Yeah, No, that's that's powerful because the ripple
effect is is it's not just you guys, it's it's
family is being torn apart, and yeah, and then just
feels awful.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
That's the worst thing ever, it really is. It real
divorce does the infidelity and the ends the destruction of
the divorce period, which can be worse mm hmm than
the actual infidelity and the actions. You also mentioned about
(26:52):
not becoming cynical because of things that have happened and
carrying that broken belief system into whether it's a new relationship,
whether it's a new business or whatever it may be.
So I'd appeared in my life which was kind of destructive,
and since then I have become a lot more cynical.
(27:15):
And I think it's a mistrusting not our relationship, but
it's a mistrust in people's intentions, whether it's whether it's business,
or whether it's whether it's sport, or whether it's professional sport.
I now have a thing in my head where I
won't trust you until I know I can trust you,
(27:36):
rather than it be and I used to be I'll
trust you until I can't trust you, but now I'm
almost like, I don't trust you until you can prove
to me that you can trust me.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
And that's.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Relationship, that's business, that's sport. And I've kind of carried
that for the last probably three three or four years,
and I'm trying to come out of it, but I
still have this. I still have this thing where if
I meet someone you in business of sport, my first
thought is, Okay, how are you, how are you gonna
(28:10):
how are you going to shaft me here? Or how
are you going to do it? And it's a it's
a horrible way to be. And I'm getting better now
and I'm slowly coming out of it. But I don't
have a I don't have a broken belief system, but
I have become a lot more cynical based on that
period in my life. Do you have any wants or
advice to to help with that?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, So, first of all, I want to say, of
course you have tentative feelings around trusting people because when
your trust has been broken over and over, it can
start to feel like all people are manipulative, or all
people are eventually going to hurt you, all people are
just in it for themselves, And so I just want
(28:55):
to say, of course you feel that way. I think
anybody who goes through enough experiences where they experience themselves
tells you not to trust people. Eventually you're going to
kind of get clued in that sometimes it is really
tough to trust people. But the important thing is, and
this I had to study this a lot because Jana knows.
(29:18):
Like I remember on our last podcast, Jana, I wrote
about you in the book by the Way, because you,
I was just saying, yeah, I don't think that I'm
ever gonna go there again. I feel like I'm too old.
But also I think I've just been through too much.
And you said to me, never too late, Lisa, It's
(29:38):
never too late, and then you referred to me on
other podcasts as never too late. Do y'all remember never
too late? And I just knew exactly what you're talking about.
My girls they would call me and like Janna mentioned,
never too late again, as you would kind of.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
No, it's just never too late.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
But it was so it was so encouraging to me.
But it really helped inspire the chapter on Red Flags
and Roots of Distrust. The purpose of that chapter is
to identify these eleven red flags, and they they're on
like various ends of the spectrum. So most severe is
(30:18):
immorality and probably one of the least severe is irresponsibility.
You know, so when you say you don't trust someone,
it could be because you think they don't have a
moral compass, or it's because the last time they said
they were going to do a favor for you, they
forgot and drop the ball, so that was irresponsible. But regardless,
we're using the same word trust for a whole spectrum
(30:40):
of occurrences, right, And so in this chapter the Eleven
Red Flags and Roots of Distrust, there's three purposes that
it's really crucial to look through. This is because it
will help us identify what are the red flags that
are actually emerging that are giving me these feeling that
(31:00):
I can't trust this person, and it helps to know
what category it is, where is it actually coming from.
So that's the first thing is to recognize what kind
of when I say I don't trust this person, what's
really at the heart of that, what are they doing
repetitively that makes me feel so on edge. The second
thing is if we don't tend well to those red
(31:24):
flags in a relationship, they will form roots of distrust,
and those roots of distrust create simmering resentments, and simmering
resentments is the number one killer of relationships today, so
it's really important. The third thing is red flags and
roots of distrust. As I was writing this, I finished
(31:45):
the chapter and then reread it, and I was like,
what the heck, Oh my gosh, I see some of
this in me, Like I do some of these things,
and I'm probably feeding a distrust in other people. So
it created self awareness, which was the third purpose of
that chapter that I didn't even know was going to
be a purpose of that chapter. But I think that's
(32:06):
one of the most important parts of the book because
trust is built time plus believable behavior, and so over
a course of time, if somebody constantly does something that's
behavior that wears away your trust, then trust cannot be built.
But if you have a conversation about it, they recognize
(32:29):
what is this thing that they're doing, or what is
this red flag that you've become aware of then you
can work on that theme. And so it may be
as simple as like, hey, Jana, it's really crucial that
you know you show up on time because when you
show up on time, that creates within me deeper trust
in you that you respect my time, that you care
(32:51):
about me, and that you know that we're going to
be able to go to things without me feeling the
anxiety of being late. And so you can have those conversations.
But even something as small as like not showing up
on time, over time can become a root of distrust,
which can create simmary resentments. So all of these eleven
red flags are really important to consider.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
But yeah, totally, But for him to go in like
straight up just not trusting someone, is that what piece
of that can can be? Is there anything in that
that can maybe help too, because maybe this person hasn't
even done anything like I I haven't you know, I'm
not going to cheat on you, but you might have
come in first because you've been cheated on your past
(33:33):
with that she's gonnait me over. I don't know if
you ever felt that way, but have you felt that
with previous relationships?
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Posture and my reference to becoming cynical was not just
based on my divorce. It's based on that talk that yeah, yeah, well,
there's loads of things in my life that happened that well,
that brought a lot of trauma to my life. But
the an add to that, I didn't trust my own
decision making because there was a it was a pay
(34:02):
where I was also irresponsible with some of my decision making.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
So it's a culmination of of everything.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
So it's not it's not a case of as soon
as I meet someone and I'm like, I don't trust you,
I don't. I don't say it to myself, I don't
trust you. It's almost like I'm just waiting on it, right, Okay,
when's it going to come?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Is that something you've done with me?
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Though I'm here and it's it's more.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
It's actually more in professional sport and in business than
that is in personal relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I am going to slightly disagree with you here because
of your house in the in the woods. There's this
can I share unless you don't want me to share?
When there can be when there's conflicts. Sometimes he goes
and it's a it's a made up place, but it's
a place for him where it's his cabin in the woods.
So his first instinct is to just be alone and
(34:55):
detach and be alone. And it's like, no, let's come together,
let's figure this out. Let's like, don't go to the woods,
you know what i mean. I'm always like when I
can see him going, I'm like, let's you know. But
it's like he just is like up, everyone's screwing me
over and she's gonna leave, and then I'm going to
go to my cabin and be alone in the woods,
you know. And I'm like no, no, no, like you're not.
I don't. I'm gonna confind you in the woods. Then
(35:15):
whenever cabin you're going to, I'm gonna find you. But
that piece, I'm like, I don't know sometimes why you
go to that place of everyone's going to abandon you
because something like that. I'm I'm here willing and like
trying to like work on it, you know, and any
not thing we have, like these big things, but you
know what i mean, Like that's just when it does happen.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
When it does happen, yeah, yeah, Well, sometimes the riskiness
of relationships can feel like too much to someone who's
had repetitive bad experiences. In a certain area of their
life with other people. And what I hear you saying is,
you know, in business and in sports, that just seems
(35:57):
to be a breeding ground for people taking advantage of
other people. And here's the thing about safety. Safety is
one of the crucial ingredients for trust. It's safety and connection.
But you don't need to just be told that you're safe.
You need to feel it for yourself. If you don't
feel it for yourself, then people can give lip service
(36:19):
all day long. But there's no way around that. It's
time plus believable behavior. So it's that believable behavior part.
It's their actions that show you over time that they
are trustworthy, that they are good, that they do have
your best interests in mind. And you know, there's really
(36:41):
no other way around it. And so of course you
feel skeptical, but you don't want your past hurt from
other people to start hindering your present and future relationships,
because skepticism has a way of not just wanting to
be a thought, it wants to be the consuming thought.
And so you know, while you're looking for believable behavior
(37:06):
in other people, but you also have to manage some
of those thoughts and instead of assuming that they're going
to hurt you just say I'm not going to assume
either way, but I am going to pay attention to
their behavior now. And you know that's there's really no
other way around it, just to look for it's time
plus believable behavior. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
My therapist is always saying too, like what is what
do you see today? You know, not what she felt
five years ago. It's like, what do you what do
you see today?
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Like?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
What is what is in front of you? What is
this person doing? You know? As opposed to letting in,
it's just it's hard right to sometimes stay in that
present state.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
It's really hard. And you know, alan you might enjoy
the last book that I wrote, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes.
It talks about how this was really eye opening for me,
how the mistake that I kept making is that I
was giving level ten access to people who hadn't proven
(38:06):
themselves trustworthy and they were only bringing like a level
three responsibility. And so I thought, well, I'm going to
put a boundary on them and make them be more responsible.
But we both know you cannot force another person to
change if they're unwilling or incapable of making those changes.
So this difference here, that's where dysfunction grows, that's where
(38:31):
skepticism grows. So what we have to do then is
put a boundary on ourselves and reduce the level of
access that we grant those people down to their demonstrated
level of responsibility. So we never want to give them
more access than what they've proven that they can be responsible.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
With that access.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Yeah, nice, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Do you feel like you go in on the top
or the bottom and not a position?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
John was actually really inconsistent because there's some people where
and it depends what the subject is. But there's some
situations that I'll go in and I'll almost say, Okay,
I'll go in and I'll give them access to this
information or this whatever it may be. And then there's
other times I'll go in and I'm just a completely
closed book, like you're getting nothing. Yep, you're getting nothing.
(39:21):
You can open up if you want, but I'm not
opening up. So I'm still not even I've not even
found that balance. So that's a good way of putting it.
So if I if I go on at a level ten,
level zero, if I go in at a level five
and keep myself at level five, almost until I can
see people creeping towards that. Then I'll feel I'll get
less anxiety about like even like IP I get. I
(39:43):
get really paranoid about people stealing IP. Like yesterday, I'm
on a call to a guy. He's like, yeah, send
me over your report on this player, and I've just
explained to them that this is my highest level of
offering product I offer.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
I was like, you, I'll send it over.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
What you need to sign an NDA, and he's like, yeah, no,
Wordy's no problem at all. He's like, send the NDA
one day and then send your report on its same
So straight away I go to okay, NDA, fustling in
my head.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I mean, I definitely have seen you go in on
both both things, and you were you don't trust a
lot of people right off the bat. It takes a
it takes a minute, but it's not a bad thing.
I don't think. I don't think that's a bad thing.
I sometimes have trusted way too much.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Me too, I have too, and so I have to
be careful not to swing the pendulum from being the
person who trusted everybody with everything to trusting nobody with anything.
You know, But you can also extend people limited trust.
You don't have to. It's not a all or nothing thing.
You know, you can trust them with a little bit
and see if they're good stewards of that little bit
(40:51):
of trust, and then increase it over time. But it
all requires time. You know.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
What do you think is the biggest red flag that
you that you write about, especially in the book Inconsistency?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Absolutely, yep, when someone it's so confusing and so hard
for me and such a huge trigger when somebody is
great for a certain period of time, but then they
all of a sudden shift really quickly into not so
great and then shift back to that love bombing of no, no, no, no,
(41:27):
I really am great and you're great, and we're great
in all of that. And that's one of the things
that I love so much about Chaz. He is very
very consistent. And of course, I mean, like in all relationships,
we have things we want to work on. But I
love his consistency. I love that I can count on
when he wakes up in the morning, he's going to
(41:48):
be happy. I can count on that, you know. I
know that I can count on him to be willing
to circle back and talk to me about things, even
if he needs to go to his equivalent of the
cabin in the woods or you know, but that consistency
has been so, so so important to me. Another one
is incongruity. You know. It's when someone's insides don't match
(42:12):
their outsides, and so they say something that gives the
appearance that they're one way, but inside your experience with
them is very, very different than what they're portraying, and
so that incongruity creates so much friction. And honestly, I
saw in my previous relationship that it was the incongruity
(42:37):
that in the end made me finally just stand up
and say enough, Like, I'm not walking away from this relationship,
but I am accepting the reality that if you don't
want to change, I cannot change you. I have been
working harder on you than you're working on yourself, and
the insides don't match the outsides, and oftentimes what you
(43:00):
say on the outside the inside takes over and becomes
activities that I'm no longer willing to be subject to.
So I think some of those, and of course, immorality
is a huge one. You want someone to have a
moral compass, you know, Consistency and incongruity are two of
the other red flags that are really really for me,
(43:20):
really crucial.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, I feel like too, where I find sometimes trigger
is coming up is where I'm like, you say this
and then someone it says. If someone says something and
then they say something else we're on the same subject,
I'm like, wait, which one is it? Like, I'm like,
because you said this and now it's this, So it's
like I have a hard time trusting that piece of things. Yeah,
(43:43):
And that's like a massive trigger from the past too,
because it doesn't feel consistent like you just said, it
goes back to and I'm like, oh, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
It is tough. And another one that is really triggering
to me is insincerity. When someone says something but you
walk away and you're like, I don't think that person
really meant what they said. I think I think they
were trying to give some kind of impression that they
like me more than they actually like me, And I
(44:14):
don't trust what they're going to say, Like they say
one thing to me, but it feels so insincere because
I just have a feeling you're going to say something
else to someone else. And so that insincerity really became
bothersome to me. And here's the thing about their eleven
red flags too, is that they're going to be different
levels of seriousness for different people, based on your past history,
(44:36):
based on your experiences, based on just how you're wired.
So like some people, insincerity may not be that big
of a deal. Maybe they're in a shallow industry and
they they've dealt with that so long that it doesn't
really hit them the way that it would hit me,
you know, And so you know, I think it's I
(44:56):
think it's That's why that's one of my most favorite
parts of the book is just because I think it
creates a lot of relational awareness and self awareness and
can become really helpful when you get that ick feeling
that you don't trust someone but you can't quite figure
out why. That chapter will help you figure out why.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
For someone that's listening that is going through obviously trust issues,
get the book, But what is the biggest kind of
I don't want to say takeaway, but to be able
to trust again. I know it's time and consistency, but
is there something else where You're like, this is something
(45:46):
that I would encourage people to know or to do.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yes. So in the chapter on rips and repairs. For
every rip in a relationship, there has to be a repair.
You can't skip that process. And if it's a really
big rip, then it's going to need a really big repair.
And I know you can probably relate to this, Jenna,
is you know one of the very first steps on
(46:10):
a pretty big rip in a relationship is full disclosure.
Because if there isn't full disclosure, and if what happens
is they're only willing to admit what you've caught them doing,
then that's going to be a really hard dynamic to
repair trust in, especially if they don't give a full
(46:32):
disclosure and you catch them, but then you continue to
find out more information that they weren't honest about up front.
That's going to make that repair process like really really
really hard, if not impossible. But the other thing is
is not just the full disclosure, but also recognizing they
(46:54):
need to recognize what this costs you, because every trauma
is too parts it's fact and it's impact. So there's
the fact of what they did that they need to
you know, repent from or say they're sorry or own
it whatever. But then they they're going to have to
be really patient with you as the impact becomes like
(47:20):
that's almost like when you have the triggers. That's when
you're made aware of how much this cost you. And
they've got to be really sensitive to that cost and
be incredibly patient. And here's how you know someone is
really sincere about wanting to repair or not repair, is
if you get triggered in your pain and you say, hey,
can I look at your phone because I'm just not
(47:43):
feeling good about when I just walked in, I saw
you swipe really quick and put it in your back pocket,
and it's making me incredibly anxious. Their response to that
will tell you a lot. If they say, seriously, you're
not over this, like we're going to deal with this again,
Like you're crazy, I'm not doing anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I have so many triggers and chills happening in my
body right now.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I know, right. And so if that's their response, Look,
where there's smoke, there is a fire, and whether it
is a candle fire or whether it's a full blown
house fire, regardless, even if you hold your cand over
a candle long enough, you're going to get burned. So
where there's smoke, there is a fire. You may not
know what the fire is, but that's not a good
(48:29):
sign when they get super defensive like that and accusatory
towards you. If the response is, of course, you need
to look at my phone, like here's my phone, here's
my password, and if you have any questions, tell me
what you need. Do you need to look at the
phone and that's it. Do you need to look at
the phone and talk about it? Do you need me
(48:49):
to sit down and hold you for a minute because
I want to assure you you're safe, Like how can
I best assure you you're safe right now? Then that
kind of response is all so such an amazing trust
builder because you know that they have enough humility to
care about you in that moment, And chances are if
(49:10):
they're being that open and honest, then that trigger wasn't
because of present concerns. It may have just been a
trigger because of past pain.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
M Yeah, that piece is. I feel like that's always
really hard for them, Like the perpetrator wants to sweep
it and move on and like hurry up and go,
let's you know, I've I told you, I'm sorry and
I'm changing and I'm doing X, Y and Z and
now kind of get over it. And I remember that
being something in my past too, where I'm just like
our therapist had said one time, imagine you were driving
(49:43):
a car and you got into the worst car ecid,
her legs were completely cut off. Would you tell her
to just move on and she has to get over
it in two months, like you chopped her legs off,
you know, like she can't walk, and even then, I
don't think anything visually helped that situation. But but yeah,
I thought it was a good visualize visualization. But yeah,
(50:05):
it's you know, it's I get wanting to like move
on and not get into it. But like you said,
like those gifts that you can give that person that
you hurt, the trust, having that patience, I know it's hard,
but you also cause this impact, like you know, so.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Absolutely there's a there's a good saying that Chas has
from years and years and years of going to AA meetings,
And it's nine miles in, nine miles out. If it
took you nine miles to get into this situation, it's
going to take you nine miles to get out of it.
So like the more severe the distrust that has formed,
(50:40):
the more severe the broken trust, the more you know
length it's going to take to repair it. But the
most important thing to remember is you cannot repair trust
that continues to get broken.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Like that is the biggest piece, one thousand percent. That's
what I tell people that will DM me. And I'm like, listen,
I'm always willing to give a grace at one time,
but if I my girl, if it happens again, you
gotta like this is that's not it? You know, like
they're going to keep doing it again and again.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
We all make mistakes. Look, yeah, all make mistakes, but
there is such a big difference between a mistake and
a pattern pattern. Yep, you know. A mistake is something
like Okay, we can go to counseling for this, we
can talk about this whatever. But when it is a
pattern of behavior, that is the breeding ground for dysfunction,
(51:27):
which is the breeding ground left unaddressed for destructive realities
and a relationship. And there's a big difference between a
difficult marriage and a destructive marriage. And I didn't understand
that for a long time, but I understand it now.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Girl, do we ever? And look at us now? You
know we've really come a long way.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
We really have, And you are so right. It is
never too late, Jana.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
It is never too late for anyone. And can I
just what is your to close this out? What is
your favorite Bible verse on trust? One of them? I
know there's a bunch.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Yeah, well, believe it or not, it's going to be
one that is about the Lord. And it doesn't even
have the word trust in it. But it's Matthew five
eight blessed or the pure in heart, for they will
see God. And the reason I love that so much
is it doesn't say blessed is the perfect person. It
doesn't say blessed is the person with the perfect life
(52:24):
that they'll see God. No, it's blessed as that person
who wants to see God, and then they will. And
the more I know that God is with me and
that He is the stabilizing force of my life, the
less fearful I am of the risk that all relationships require.
(52:46):
And so that one became really important to me. And
let me, can I close with just a really quick story,
jan I can.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Say, please, oh my gosh, yes, Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
So at the very end of the book there's a
chapter called Rebellious Acts of Resisience. And you know me,
I'm not your friend that you would ever describe as rebellious, right.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
No, I have to like teach you how to say
the fuc k word.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
No, not gonna.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
I won't say it exactly. She's like, only Jana I
can say that.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
But okay. So I went to the beach with a
couple of my friends. Their names were Jess and Anne,
and we got down to the beach and the one
thing that I really wanted was a little cooler with
ice in it to put my egg salad sandwich, my
little fruit, my diet coke, and my water and it
I wanted to be on ice. And so that's like
(53:39):
a really important part of my beach trip. I know
that that sounds boring, but that's me. Okay. Well, I
went to use the ice maker at the place we were at,
and the ice maker was broken. And I do not
know why I had such an out of proportion reaction
ice maker being broken, but I was literally standing in
the kitchen with my fist going.
Speaker 5 (54:01):
If he would have never cheated, then I would still
be married. And if I was still married, he would
know how to fix the ice maker. And now I
can't have ice. And another thing he's ruined for me
is my beach to day.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Okay, that is so immature, and I recognize that, but whatever, Okay.
I was very upset and I stopped myself and I
thought to myself, I keep saying I can't fix the
ice maker, but what if I could? So I googled
instructions to see. I'm like, what's the worst that can happen?
It's already broken. I break it worse. And I googled instructions.
(54:35):
I cannot follow written instructions to save my life. But
then I remembered the gift of the YouTube. So youtubed
instructions and there's a video and Jana as God is
my witness. I fixed that ice maker, and when that
ice came down, it was such an epic moment of
(54:55):
victory for me because what I realized is, yes, that's
took a lot from me, it really did, But that
season could also give me a lot if only I
will watch. I cannot say I can't and I don't
because those cants and dolts will turn into won't. Sometimes
it's true we can't. Sometimes it's true we don't. But
(55:18):
I don't want to reduce my life down to the
limitations of living hurt and broken trust. While it can
be life altering. It doesn't have to be life ruining.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
I love that, and I one thousand percent agree with you. Yeah,
I love it. Well, thank you for coming on. I'm
going to order the book because I love you and
it's we all, you know, we all, whether it's friendships, marriages,
pass you all struggle with trust, so everyone will get
(55:51):
I want to trust you, but I don't available now.
Thank you so much, Thank you all right? How are
feeling about trust, babe? Were good? Yeah? I trust you.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
I trust you, sir?
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Okay, good, Let's go somewer sharks all right.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Bye,
Host
Jana Kramer
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