Ep. 4 Let's Talk About Sex

It’s the Sex episode! Jana’s husband Mike returns to talk about the male side of problems with physical intimacy.  You won’t believe the breakthrough Jana and Mike have when they talk to Relationship expert Cherie Healey. The revelations they have about each other leave everyone in the studio speechless. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, wind Down with Janna Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast,
Episode four. I'm so excited. I'm super excited to wine
down today with all of you because we're talking about sex. Baby,
let's talk about you and me and we have an expert. Yeah,
Mike's here, Well we have to. Mike is back. Mike

(00:25):
is back for his grand return, and we brought him
in for the Sex in Tennessee episode. I mean, is
this like a couples therapy that's like on air right now? Like,
what are we doing here? Do you have questions? Did
you come with them? No? She has to think. Janna
doesn't steer me. I told you we were talking about sex.
I don't know. She talks about so much. I can't

(00:45):
listen to everything. I think I think you tuned me
in and tune me out sometimes. But no, we're talking
about sex and intimacy today, and that's something that we
have issues with in the bedroom. Yes, I think everybody does.

(01:07):
I know, I think everybody is too. And you just
had your anniversary. Yeah, we just had our anniversary, and
you know I had fund you have and we just
kind of answer people you were just dying to ask. Alright,
So bab um I think, what do you what do

(01:31):
you think are what do you think our biggest issue
in the bedroom is? Um, A lot of it is
communication and expectations. I think, um, you know, where if
we try to get in the space of reading each
other's mind and you know, oh, it's been a couple
of days, we're gonna have sex, and uh, you know

(01:54):
that person you know isn't in the mood or too
tired or this or that, then the other person feels
like that. UM. I know for me in particular, you know,
the the stereotype for men is that we're just light
switches and no matter what, we can just have sex
just you know, as soon as our wives are significant
others say that, we're just like, all right, let's do it.
So you're saying it's more mental for you. Yeah, I

(02:16):
think men in general, I don't think you know, I
think more guys can relate than people might. People might
be surprised with how many men can relate the fact that,
especially when you're involved with someone with intimacy, that it
takes a lot more than just hey on, let's go
have sex. It's like, sometimes we want some four play,
sometimes we want to be one and dined a little
bit and like feel special and stroke our ego a

(02:38):
little bit and then you know that might build our
confidence or whatever it may be. Yeah, I mean I
definitely hear you, because I mean, I know we have
some arguments where it's you know, I and I think
unfortunately the infidelity piece plays a part in this because
there's times when I'm like, you know, I do want
to have sex, but and I and I play the
game of waiting for you to come to me because

(02:59):
I'm like, well, you know, why doesn't he want me?
Why doesn't he want to sleep with me when he would,
you know if since he slept with someone else. I
think that does play a part with like my head
and like where you know, and I know other listeners
that have you know, have infidelity in the relationship, like
that is you know something they said that is a
problem because they like, we want to feel wanted and chosen,

(03:20):
you know, when y'all didn't choose us. And so it's
like I guess like for me, it's like I wish
we could find someone that could help us, like get
out of our heads because I think we we we
are both mentally like when we're in bed, like you
have anxiety, like, god, I I have to, but I mean,
you know, I'm tired from worker, but she's you know,
she probably she wants. And then I'm like, I'm not

(03:40):
pretty enough and I'm not I'm insecure, and I'm like
why doesn't he choose me? And like I feel rejected again,
and it's like I feel like it's like, how do
we stay like how do we stay present? How do
we stay in the moment? How do we you know,
and not feel like we're having to meet these grand
expectations is something that we might not be able to
or at the time even too. It's not saying that

(04:01):
you don't think I'm pretty or you don't think that
you don't want to have sex with me, but you know,
when infidelity does play apart, that's what affects our sex life.
And then you know, I get upset. You get upset,
and you're like, you know, I think in general, you know,
especially when there is infidelity infidelity involved, communication is key,
and I think you and I have slowly gotten better

(04:22):
at this, at communicating and coming to each other and
be like, hey, I'm starting to feel this way. It's
been a couple of days. I'm starting to feel you know,
these triggers are coming up or these feelings are coming up,
like and then you know, anytime you've done that to me,
I'm like, oh my gosh, like, no, that's not it
at all, Like I've genuinely been tired or you know,
generally just haven't been in the mood. But I love
you so much and yes, let's connect or whatever it

(04:45):
may be. Um. So I think that's a big part,
especially when infidelity is involved, because just like I said
in the last episode, I was on, I don't want
to feel tested, and I feel like there's passive aggressiveness
in the sense of like I know you're waiting for me,
but there's hasn't been any talk about it. And then
I in my head and I'm like, because I want
to feel chosen. I want to feel like that you like,
you know, part of me is like you left me,

(05:07):
so now choose me, like jump on me, you know
what I mean. Like, and so that's like that's hard.
But I also know in your mind it's like, yeah,
it's been a long day, we have Jolie, and you're tired,
and we're tired, and maybe I just want and maybe
you just want to go to sleep. It's not because
you don't think I'm prettier, but it's just so it's
it's it's interesting like how both of our minds can

(05:28):
be two different places and then but yeah, we can
both be frustrated and that's just that's hard. And I
know the communication and you're right, we have done a
better job at that, but it's still like sometimes we're
like you say that you want the four play too
or and it's like, but sometimes I think like the
person that has been effected and fidelity wants to four

(05:49):
play more because it's like, you know, like the other
day when you're like surprised and I was like, you know,
like it made me feel special. It made me feel
like you know, even though it was you know, it
was incredibly spontaneous, and then I was I was like,
oh wow, like I didn't feel like your wife, like

(06:09):
just like you know, lay next to you. I don't know,
I just it was something different that like it was
it was nice. I just felt like it was like
you you wanted me, and I felt and wanted. So
I just know that I like the spontaneous. Yeah, the
spontaneity is I think key two when there's issue every
once in a while, for sure, every once in a while,
like you and I have where it's just you know,

(06:30):
if it starts to become this planning thing, then I
get in my head especially and it's just like anxiety
like build up to performing and you know, my insecurities
or what however I feel about myself in that moment
might take over, you know, how I really feel or
how I want to be with you. Um. You know again,
that's something that I'm sure most men won't really admit,

(06:50):
is you know, insecurities that they may have with performing
or uh, you know issues with intimacy, which you know
I have where you know me, I never connected sex
and intimacy and love together before in my life. Now,
being in a real relationship with you that deals with
intimacy and really growing together as a couple as to
human beings like that is so uncomfortable for me. But

(07:10):
I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to get to
that level like of intimacy and like what that's really like.
And again I think a lot of people don't look
into it like that. I mean, And that's the thing, yes,
I mean, and I thank you for like saying that
because but it but it also makes me sad because
I'm like, I want that intimacy. I want that like
that and not just like not just sex. I know

(07:33):
intimacy isn't just sex. It's everything like leading up to
it in our relationship and communication. And I know that,
like you know, sex and intimacy, you haven't coupled together.
So I mean, what is what are you doing too? Well,
that's the thing. I think, you know, I'm starting to
and I think you're seeing that that I'm starting to
correlate the two. And it's it's not a decision that
I have made in my life. It's not like, oh,

(07:53):
I'm just I'm gonna have issues with intimacy. I choose that. No,
it's just, you know, things that have happened throughout my
life that have caused me to to not relate sex
and love and intimacy, and uh so it's just different
for me. It's different and having to go through that
at you know, thirty one years old, when I spent
the whole rest of my life not correlating the two,
Is that's a change. Do you think it's possible? Absolutely?

(08:16):
I think it's already. I've already shown at times it's possible,
and it's just only something that I can by practicing
by taking contrary action from what I would do in
the past and putting myself in uncomfortable situations, which is
very hard to do, but choosing to do that because
I want to grow with you. Thank you for sharing. Wow.

(08:37):
So I'm just I'm so curious. What what was the
intimacy level before the infidelity? What was it like you
two as a couple before the infidelity? The problem was,
I mean, do you want to say it or go ahead?

(08:58):
Go ahead? No, I'll let do it because I don't
want to, like, I don't want to get you mad
at me. I don't want to say that because I
know how sensitive you are to certain things, and I
know this is this is hard, it's not easy. But again,
like you know, you have realized like how many people
we are helping as well. But from my take of it,
it was great in the very beginning, Like but then again,

(09:25):
he meets someone that he loves and he's struggled with
intimacy his entire life. So it was in the beginning,
you know, where it was like, I'm like, what what happened?
Like what why are you not what's up? Like you
know what I mean, Like what's going on? Like this
isn't this isn't good? Why are you not what? Why

(09:47):
are you not wanting to sex with me? Why is
why is it not working in this sexual capacity? Being
a whole and a whole and you know, mean and
short tempered and not the loving, you know, compassionate, supporting
boyfriend I was at the beginning, and then what it

(10:07):
turned into. And I mean we had a luck. I
say this any time we talked to somebody, because I
think it's no excuse. But having said that, there are
things in life that happened, happened, like circumstances that affect
the outcome. And in the span of six months, we
bought a house together, we got engaged, we got married,

(10:31):
we got pregnant, and I was transitioning out of the
only career I've ever done, I've ever had. Okay, but
that's not the main reason though. No, No, I'm not
saying that. I'm just saying circumstances like like happen in
life that maybe caused me to be even that much
more disconnected. But the core is you fell in love
with me. You have intimacy issues. You don't connect love

(10:53):
and sex together. So from way past, like way before, right, Yeah,
my point in saying that because yes, I've always had
I didn't correlate love in intimacy and sex and all
that stuff, so that on top of all those other things,
it was like, you know, perfect storm in my in
my brain, can we explain? And then there was the

(11:14):
cheating before, and so then that just still Let so
is our sex life has been you know, yeah, but
I mean it's it's been a work in progress because
of those issues and the intimacy. Is it when you
actually physically emotionally fall in love, did it trigger the

(11:39):
intimacy issues? Yeah, so you didn't have them when you
were just dating. It was as you were falling in love.
I'm just trying to like he would a few women
in my past that it was like it was it
was kind of weird. I kind of laughed at myself
about it. But it's like I knew I really liked

(12:00):
the girl when I started having like yeah, like literally
it was like an alarm clock going off from my body.
It's like like it would happen. I'm that holy shop,
I must really like this girl. I must like like
her a lot, and it's only happened to small amount
of women and the girls were like, uh, do are
we not hot right now? Like what's going on? I mean?

(12:20):
And eventually I got past it and things were okay,
but still just especially initially, it's just it was really weird.
But is it fear? Is it? But at the same time,
you'd go off and be with somebody else easily, but
with the person you loved, he wouldn't. And that's why
I've been unfaithful in every relationship I've ever had ever. Wow, Yeah,

(12:45):
yeah it sucks. So yeah, it's not easy. But now
you're working on it. Now you guys are working on it.
Is yes, we are, but it's you know, it's it's
still hard for I think for you because it's like

(13:06):
you want to not be always the perpetrator, and you
have been in every single one of your relationships. It's
hard when you want to do something but then like
your body, your brain doesn't want to cooperate, you know
what I mean, Like your your brain and heart are
two different things, you know, and it's tough to kind

(13:29):
of get the both of them on the same path,
get them in sync, get them in sync on what
you really want to do. Um Man, this is harder
to talk about. I thought, um I'm proud of you though,
for I mean like admitting you know what I mean,
admitting that, And honestly, that's what drew us together in
the first place, because I've cheated plenty in my past,

(13:51):
not proud of it. But when we got together, we
both were like and I was like I would. I'm like,
I'm gonna honked you. I cheated on my last relationship.
I cheated on them one before up and I cheated
on the one before that. Not proud of it. But
I want to be different in this relationship. I want
to love you, only love you and be with you.
And what hurt was that he said the same thing,

(14:12):
you know what I mean, He's like me too, I
have it. It's like we finally found someone that like
we got each other. Yeah, and that's why that's where
we connected so quick, so fast, because we loved the
flaws in one another. Like you know, I feel like
the majority of the time when people first start dating,
people asked that, like have you ever cheated? And everyone's like, no,
like you give the political answer when more times or not,

(14:33):
they probably have. Did you feel like a mirror? It
was just nice to and finally someone didn't judge me too,
because I'm like, it's it sucks and I'm not proud
of it at all, But I knew what I wanted
to do different in this relationship. So you know, when
there was infidelity again his side, I was like, damn it.
You know, we talked like we said we were going
to be different, you know, like and so that was like,

(14:56):
that was that was just hard for me. And I
know he wants to be different, you know, and he
has act of working on his stuff and you know,
and you know, I'm proud of you for for owning
all of it too and wanting to be better and
wanting to have intimacy because the fact that you even
want to work on your intimacy and is huge because
you could have easily, I mean, the easiest thing for you, Mike,

(15:18):
out of all this was to leave and starting a
relationship relationship with someone else that you haven't heard, haven't
doesn't have triggers, and that would have been the easiest
thing for you to do. And you yes, yes, but
I mean I give you a lot because I mean
it was I feel like it's a it's a bigger
uphill battle for you with you know everything, so um

(15:39):
and like totally like changing your ways and you know
being but you know who you want to be, and
I know who you want to be to know who
you can be. So thank you for again being just
super honest. And I think this is going to help
a lot of people. It's a tough subject to talk about.
It is, I can see and you're okay, so have

(16:00):
to talk to you guys about something. Um, I like
brushing my teeth. I brushed my teeth twice a day. Um,
well most of the time. But um, what I love
about this new toothbrush I'm using is that accused me
accountable Because I remember I was facetiming with my mom
the other day and I was like, Mom, I gotta
brush my teeth. She's like, oh, I will too, So

(16:21):
we're facetiming. She's like two minutes. And what I love
about it is that my toothbrush is actually time. So
my mom stopped at like thirty seconds and she's like, wow,
two minutes is really long. I'm like, yeah, Mom, I know.
That's why I gotta get quip because it's an electronic toothbrush.
It's it literally has a timer in there, so it
helps you clean for the dentist recommended two minutes with pulsaying.

(16:42):
So it really, really like the vibration helps clean my
teeth so much. So I feel like my teeth are
just cleaner, and it's so much better than a regular toothbrush,
because again, I just think having that vibration on your
teeth really gets the cook out. And I think it's fantastic.
What I also love about it at Oprah loves it
and whatever Oprah loves I love. It was on the

(17:03):
Oprah's O List, named one of the times Best Inventions,
and the first subscription electric toothbrush accepted by the American
Dental Association. So I want you all to be just
as happy about brushing your teeth as I am. So.
Quip starts at just twenty five dollars and up. If
you go to get quip dot com slash Janna right now,
you'll get your first refill pack free with Equip Electric toothbrush.

(17:27):
By the way, it also looks like an iPhone. It's
like looks like it was made from apple. It's like
rose Gold's beautiful. That's your first refill pack free at
get quip dot com slash Janna spelled g E t
q u i P dot com slash Janna happy brushing.
Let's let's talk to UM an expert we have on

(17:47):
the line right now, right now, right now, right now.
Her name is Uh. I don't want to butcher this, Shari,
Is it sure? Right? Okay? I was like I was
gonna say, Cherry, I'm sorry, but Suary it. How are you?
I'm great? How are you good? I'm just sitting here
talking with my husband about sex my favorite topics so perfect,

(18:12):
and we're you know, we're just kind of and also
producer Jenna's here with us, and UM, you know, we're
just kind of talking about how we're now building our
sex life through infidelity and intimacy and UM, if you
have any helpful hints, I think or managing expectations too

(18:32):
is something that I think of my husband, like mind
reading or having expectations too to please me and to um. Yeah, okay,
so the infidelity happened on whose part mine? Okay? And
you both want to rebuild and get back to a

(18:53):
place or get to a new place in the relations.
We want to obviously, I mean we're we're working on
our marriage, what would be helpful, like, okay, So for me,
I'll tell you what I need, and then my husband
you can say what you might need. But for me,
I want to know how do I stop with the comparisons?
First of all, because I have a lot of insecurities

(19:14):
and I get in my head a lot like how
do I stay present with the man that I'm in
bed with now, not who he was right? And then
comparing and then also you know, if he doesn't want
to sleep with me because he's tired, how do I
not like be like, well, you wanted to sleep with
so and so, why won't you be with me? Of course,
Oh these are great questions. And let me just start

(19:37):
by saying that I went through this too, So I
was in your shoes and I've worked with so many
clients to get through this, and it's absolutely possible. So
what would be paramount is that you two decide what
you want now. You know, maybe where you were before

(19:57):
there were some holes in the relation, tip or one
or the both of you were not getting everything that
you needed, and so to create a new vision for
the relationship is really key. To say okay in the
future as we're you know, day by day rebuilding what
are we building and really get on the same page
about what it is that you want together, because I

(20:19):
imagine there's something better to walk into. You know, you
can learn a lot from this instead of walking away
from it. So if you're both on the same page
about what that vision is, that's going to help a
lot because then you're holding that as opposed to something
from the past. You know, we know what happened, but
here's where we're going and work, you know, working towards

(20:42):
that is going to be a great container to stay
focused on what you two are building. Like art, you know,
it's something you're creating together, future focused and then in
the present for you, you know, there's some work that
you can do just in individually to look at what
what's the blessing of this? It showed you that you've

(21:04):
got some some insecurity, some sense of now questioning who
you are, and so in that there's a giant lesson,
there's giant growth for you and that you know, any
of us has that opportunity. But the fact that you
have that in your hands now you can say, all right,
how do I see myself and really go into some

(21:26):
exploration of how do I identify am I the girl
who has cheated on? Or am I you know, some
really beautiful soul on this planet who's worthy of love,
who has their own unique flavor of love to give,
and and start really amplifying how you see yourself. You know,
I see that there's these life stages that we go

(21:48):
through as men and women, and as a woman, you're
going through. Can I ask how old you are? I'm
thirty four, okay, so right about that age. You're in
what we would call like the princess age before you
become a queen. So it sounds really silly, but I
think it's a great sort of metaphor that we can

(22:09):
relate to. Is that you're learning about your power right now,
and in short order, as you start to approach forty,
you're going to step into that power so holy and
become the queen you know, and then and beyond that,
there's other stages, but these these stages are important for
you to know about. Now that you get to you
get to be playing with your power and what that

(22:31):
means as a woman. You know, how you want to
be treated, how much love you have to give, Identifying
with yourself as a really powerful form of love on
this planet for that man that no other woman can
compare to, frankly, because there's no other woman exactly like you,

(22:51):
And so I would spend my time filter sting on
your own unique gifts and the own you know, your
own ways of expressing because when you really you know
except that and your own way of being, then yeah,
there are a million other flavors of women out there,
but when you're really aligned with yours, you become irresistible.

(23:14):
Mm hmm, I hear you. There's two parts in me.
One that's like yeah, absolutely, like I am like I
am beautiful, and then in other parts like, well then
why didn't he choose me? Right? Well, that'd be a
really good question. I'd love to hear his answer. I
need both your names. I'm Jane, and then this is
my husband, Mike. Hi, Mike. Yeah, tell me there's there's

(23:38):
a truth here that you there was something you weren't
getting in life, and maybe not just from Janna, but
just in life. Have you guys had that conversation where
you've told her really what you were speaking? Yeah, we have, Um,
you know, there's as open as we are on this show.
About our issues are still some things that we keep

(23:58):
to ourselves. UM, but her and her and I have had,
you know, these conversations and they've been ongoing. Um. You know,
it's been two years now almost um since since kind
of discovery. But um, you know, there's a lot of
things that I was missing. I mean, you know, I
could spend all day talking about. But our important thing

(24:21):
now is kind of as you said, it's rebuilding who
we are as individuals, as two separate human beings, and
then within that coming together stronger than we ever ever were.
And you know, there we don't have to be um,
codependent on one another, you know, and wake up in
the morning and say, you know, how, hey, honey, how
how am I? How do I feel today? How am

(24:42):
I feeling? You know, and depend on each other to
kind of dictate our emotions are our feelings that day,
which I think we did for a while at the
beginning of the beginning of our marriage when we started
hitting some just you know, real world regular stresses in
life and became kind of codependent on one another and
kind of lost part of ourselves in that. Um, I

(25:05):
know I did for sure, so and a huge piece
of it too. Is that he does struggle with intimacy,
and so that is also an issue like with you
know why he has treated in previous relationships and then
in ours as well. Um, but I think now like
as we are coupling together again, you know, how does
I mean, Mike, Like, your biggest thing is the mind

(25:28):
reading and expectations? Is that you would say is your Um? Yeah,
that's definitely one of them. Um, you know it's for
me again, Like I said before, I don't want to
feel tested, and so I would like to know what's
out on the table as opposed to in your mind.
You might have these expectations and if I don't meet them,
you get upset when well, that's not fair because I

(25:51):
never knew what they were. So I don't know because
we're again, we're two different people and we think different ways, right,
So how would deal with that? Then there's there's a
short pad around this that is really just the simplest
question and getting really good at asking this question and
giving honest answers and moment to moment, baby, what do

(26:12):
you need? What do you need? Right? Okay? I hear that.
At the same time, like I want him to be
able to I don't want to have to tell him
what I need. I hear you because you guys have
probably been together for a long time, right, I mean
we've been together for you know, three and three and
a half four years. But it's like, I'm like, I'm
laying in bed, I got a really sexy lingerie thing on. Yeah,
I want you to jump me right now. I don't

(26:33):
want you to. I don't have to tell you to
jump me. You know, like I totally get it. And
and for for us as women, we find it really
reassuring that you know us right, that you that you
can catch our cues. And I'm like, I'm wearing I'm
not wearing like, you know, your big sweatshirt, like hellow.

(26:56):
And then he's just like good night, babe, And I'm like,
what the what do I want? Baby? Like that's what
I want. I want the baby Like on the air,
we could sit out loud that it's now a new
code that if mama's wearing lingerie that means I want
the Yeah, yeah exactly. But I mean I guess, like

(27:22):
I guess the times that you know I you know
that I'm not wearing the lingeree and I still might
want to is it is it conscious? Should there be
conscious times for both of us, even if we're tired
or whatever, to try, I guess, or to like make
the effort because I don't Again, I just I don't.

(27:42):
I have hard time. I don't want to ask for that. No,
you want it to be natural. You want to feel wanted,
you want absolutely you do so, so here's another way
if it's to be something else, because that's not gonna work.
It's incredibly generous to have that shortcut to sometimes know
that he's going to be thinking of other things, or

(28:03):
have had a busy day, or be really tired and
just not know. And that is universally a trait that
we struggle with with anyone who identifies masculine. There in
a single focused mindset, and they're not always going to
be able to penetrate the depths of our being and
figure out what we're feeling. He should try, right, Mike,
I would think you'd be willing to try to get

(28:24):
in there, to give her presence, to get to know
her more deeply. I think today it would be really
amazing if you could just sign up to always know
that she's saying she wants you, and he's wearing. It
helps when you start to learn those cues that build trust.
But for the times that you you don't want to
do that, I think there's there's got to be um

(28:48):
an understanding. So let's say you know he's tired, but
you really want him if we flipped it, if you
were really tired and he want to do if you
had the ability to say, look, there are a few
things that I need first, I need the dishwasher, Anthony,
I need to think aback, there are a couple of
things I need in order to be able to give

(29:09):
that to you that you guys should be able to
ask for that. Like he may be tired and he
can say I can have a quickie, I can't spend
an hour. You know that there be a little negotiating
because I think that's what we call level three relationships,
which is really just all about giving, trying to be
a source of your partner's needs. And that's another conversation

(29:32):
we can go into more deeply if you want, but
it's it's taking the stance of being just a total
giver and wanting to give to your lap. So if
she really needs you, then Mike, you get to ask
for what you know, do you get to take a
power nott first, You're gonna get a coffee? You like,
what do you need in order to give her that?
Because what I what I think is really helpful is

(29:53):
to say in all relationships that you haven't you have.
This is a great metaphor, but I'm a twenty four
seven always open restaurant for you. But if you're going
to come by around three in the morning, you got
to expect that the waitress is going to be a
little cranky and not give you like hard course meal,

(30:15):
you know, and or that maybe you can just decide
as a couple that there's certain hours that you're closed
for business. Yeah, you know, well, and that's and that's
what we had an argument about that because you know,
he like woke me up, and I was like, I
don't want to just be woken up like having you
know what I mean. He's like, whoa, I was giving
you like you want to have all the time. And
I was like, yeah, but I want like, yeah, I

(30:35):
want you to maybe kiss me for I don't wake
me up like when I'm dead sleep like you know,
she said, she has said both like sometimes she's like
I just want you to jump my bones and stuff
like that. And don't get me wrong with grant and
plenty of sex. And this is just where our issues
come up are in these situations, right. But I mean,
you've given me both signs, like you said both things.

(30:56):
Where're like you've literally said to me, wake me up,
like I won't care, Like I don't remember ever saying
wake me up. You don't wake me up. So the
record on the record, the greatest thing, shake me first
and our mind exactly. Yes, we absolutely do change your mind.
Yet now now I'm in a different now now that

(31:17):
we're two years past in Phil don't wake me up. Yeah,
So you guys decide, and and that's really generous to say,
like here's what I'm opened for business. Here's my favorite.
I'm open for business like sixteen hours of the day.
So that's amazing. And then and then to give him
a sense of what turns you on, I call them

(31:38):
jump starts, like what would be the zero to sixty
move you know that would really turn you on? And
what you might know for him to like a zero
to sixty move that you don't have to beg and
plead you could do one or two things that you
know are always going to turn him on, you know,
to share that with each other really were because the

(31:58):
common misconception, and I mean rightfully so, is that you know,
men were just like light switches. We can just turn
it on or you know, our spouse wants to have sex, Yeah,
let's do this, like you know, no issue. Well, you know,
I think, or at least for me personally, when I
struggle with intimacy and and really connecting with you know,
with Joanna and you know who I'm in a relationship with.

(32:21):
For me, it's not just a light switch. Sometimes sometimes
it is. I mean, shoot, yesterday it was you know, spontaneous,
and you know it wasn't a big issue at all.
But sometimes for me it's like I feel like, right now,
she's just waiting for me to make a move and
make her feel special, when sometimes in my mind, I'm like,
what about me, Like I'm here too, Like I don't

(32:44):
I don't see anything coming to me and making me
feel special sometimes and I think I'm the first. I'm
sorry like that you feel that way. I think for me,
maybe why I don't is because I'm still in that
like I want you to choose me, because I haven't
felt chosen in our relationship. So I think that's where

(33:06):
like infidelity has screwed up our sex life. But I mean,
I feel like we're kind of getting into a place
now where it's something that you know, that is something
that I can now try more on because but and
here's but here's my issue with it though when I
have done it. My biggest thing is I when he
rejects me, I get furious because I'm like, oh, you're

(33:29):
rejecting me. You did not reject them, right, And so
when I get rejected, if I'm telling you right now,
if I start to try and I get rejected, it
won't be pretty because I'm gonna be upset. And I
have been before, like when I have tried, So what sure,
what do I do in that instance where I'm like,
I am trying and but now I'm not getting chosen

(33:50):
or he's not going to sleep with me right right? Well,
there's a number of things. I think knowing what you
guys are building and being future focused or even present focus,
you're going to have an easier time because what happens
in that moment, which I totally get, is you go
back into the past. And and that is where like

(34:11):
I want you still to prove to me that I'm lovable.
I want you to choose me. I want you to
undo this. So there's there's a something a ritual that
you guys have to have around for giving forgiving this
and drawing a line in this band and saying we're
going to move beyond this. I'm not gonna I'm not
gonna make anything in the future now mean that I'm

(34:32):
not as good as her. But what do I do
when he rejects me when I'm trying so Yeah, But
then that's the other thing is that you in life,
you have the ability to choose the meaning for everything. Right,
this guy just cut me off, I'm gonna make it mean, right,
or I didn't get you know, this opportunity, I'm gonna
make it mean and you can you can choose that.

(34:53):
That's what your brain does, so you can now redefine it.
If he doesn't want you in that moment it or
if he's not turned on. You get to consciously decide
what does this mean? And it's it's really something that
I would sort of check with him on, you know, like, honey,
I need some help here. What does this mean? Does

(35:14):
it mean that you're just tired. Doesn't mean that you're
not attractive to me, doesn't you know? Does it mean later,
like try to find something that actually empowers you and
has you feel close to him, because it's usually something
that it is better than what we're making up in
our minds. And I have this whole commitment to myself
that my mind will make up all kinds of crazy
stuff and I and it's sometimes wrong, it's most often wrong.

(35:39):
And so I say it's in my love, Honey, I'm
making up a story right now, and I'm not sure
if it's true. Can I check it out with you?
Because what I'm feeling right now is totally rejected, you know,
and completely closed off and shut down. And I don't
want to feel that. Do you think you could have
that with him? Yeah? I mean I would. I would

(36:00):
love that. It's just I'm again, in my right healthy brain,
I am saying absolutely and my other and rejected, um,
you know her wife, You're not you know, not feeling
good enough. That hurts and I don't. I can try
to work on asking him that, but again it's taking

(36:23):
a huge leap for me to try. Yeah. Yeah, it's
a lot of work, and what I would say would
be an easier way because you've got like your high
self right, You're like you've been calling that your healthy self,
your wise your self. When you're in your prefrontal cortex
or you're in your heart and you're feeling safe, you
can always be her and you'll have a great conversation

(36:43):
with him. But there's gonna be the times when you
get triggered or when you go out of that area
straight into the amygdala and you are reptilian brain and
you're going to react, and so you have to have
an agreement with Mike, and Mike if you would be
so generous to hold her when she gets triggered, to
stay there like a redwood tree and say, Okay, this

(37:05):
doesn't scare me. I've got this. It's it's her. Her
hurt feelings will come out, and I would say, Jennifer,
you just to like cry and say I feel rejected,
I don't feel good right now and honest really hurts me,
and and be in your vulnerability. Then Mike you get
to hold that and know and know this without a

(37:26):
shadow of a doubt, that these moments will pass. They're
not going to be here forever. She's not going to
test you forever, bring up the past for forever. But
if you can stand there and be present to that
emotion and hold it every time that comes up, that
will be like one last time and it'll finally go away.
She's going to work through those emotions and learn to

(37:48):
trust you again. If you can just say you don't
scare me. I got you. This doesn't mean that I'm
rejecting you and reassure her, which I'm sure feels like
a pain in the butt at sometimes you'd love of
this to go away. But if you're willing to do
that for some period of time, you'll notice major progress. Absolutely.

(38:09):
I mean, that's sure, you're amazing. No, it's it's it's
a like shere he said. It's like a trust, a
trust fall. You know, it's leaning in, it's leaning into
one another. And you know, just to speak my opinion
on that, like if Janna came to me and you know,
I just got home from work or whatever it may be,
and she's, you know, wanting to be intimate however you

(38:31):
want to call that. It's if I you know, said
no whatever, that's not rejection coming from me. But if
she came to me softly like she asks of me
and said, hey, because you don't want to like be
physical right now, this is how I'm feeling. I would
immediately my guard would go down. I would not put
it balls up, and I would be like, oh my gosh,

(38:52):
like that is not at all like what I'm trying
to portray to you, like I love you, Like that
would help me be more intimate, help be you know,
there for her and be that red wood and be
strong for her and hold her and be like, oh
my gosh, she must be feeling pain, Like that is
not at all what I'm trying to do is reject you.
That is huge. That is so huge because you know

(39:13):
what we do is when we go into that and Magdula,
we go into the protective outside feelings like anger and
defensiveness like I'm gonna take you down, you know, like
because that feels safer to us than crying and feeling
how hurt and rejected we are. So it's going to
take major courage on your part, Janna, but it's going

(39:34):
to make you a lover who can stay open instead
of shutting down and pushing him away. Yeah, okay, I
am the world's worst at defensiveness, Like I am an
ultimate defender. And for me, if she reacted in a
negative way and started screaming at me saying, you don't

(39:56):
choose me, you chose them, so on and so forth, Yeah,
then I would get into a place of Okay, I'm
not good enough because look at all these other things
I'm doing that are right. I'm being vulnerable, I'm being honest.
Clearly that's not enough for her. That's in my brain.
That's what that means. Where I'm like, she's she doesn't
see all the great things I am doing and changing.

(40:17):
She's taking the one thing I didn't do right in
this moment and blowing up about it. And that sends
me through the roof. And she knows that. But it's
just it's so hard I get in that in that situation,
it's hard to control of those emotions that she must
be feeling. And again she comes to me, Sauce, I
just I know I do, of course, because you love her.
And I'll tell you what, here's a secret superpower of yours, Mike,

(40:40):
that if she does come to you with anger, I
know that right behind it is a scared little girl
who's hurting, and that if you just stand like a
giant redwood tree and like, go, okay, I'm not afraid
of this. The anger is just a shield and I'm
gonna hold her. I'm gonna look at her in the eyes.
I'm gonna listen and just watch it'll it'll come down.

(41:03):
It's a little girl just wanting to be chosen. Yeah,
I don't know. Jan is pretty scary. I challenge anyone
to stand in front of her like a red red
oak and think that you can. You totally have her
heart in your hand so you can hold it. Well,

(41:25):
I'm obsessed with you, and you are now our new
life coach. People just literally are listening to whoever's listening
to this, that's like a couple of therapy sessions. It
really was incredible Gold And again like, there's so many
people that are dealing with, you know, this issue and
and sex in general, and can I reach her just
a few emails just to lighten some of this a
little bit um and help some of our listeners out. Okay,

(41:49):
so it says, high Love, I have a question for you.
I have a friend who was born and raised Christian.
She got married two years ago and her and her
husband still have sex problems. They haven't had real, normal,
successful sex. What are your thoughts on that? Yes, M Well,
it could be so many things. I the fact that

(42:13):
she said Christian. You know, I grew up Catholics, so
I'm I'm aware of what comes with that. And there
can be a real distorted understanding of sects. There can
be a lot of um, misunderstandings of how good it is,
how pure it is, and you know, what a healthy
thing it is. So maybe there's some issues there. Um.

(42:37):
I think that sex is like the topic that nobody
gets taught about. We don't talk about it. I mean,
we have stealthy skills around it, and it really probably
comes down to a skill gap, like a communication challenge
and a skill gap of asking for what we need.
You know, everybody needs this. It's like food and water

(43:00):
for us as human beings. And if they have any
sort of challenge around communicating what their heart's desire is
or who they are and what they need, then there's
just going to be a standoff. And it probably has
roots and what you're experiencing, Jenna, somebody's feeling rejected and
then nuts shut them down, and then one person withholds

(43:23):
the other person automatically withholds, and so you have this
domino effective withholding and then just trying to cope, you know,
with Maybe this is what married sex looks like, which
is a tragedy. Well, and here's here's another one. Lately,
IM possibly for the last couple of years, I found
myself not attracted to my husband. I absolutely love him

(43:43):
and don't want to divorce him, but I'm finding other
men more attractive. What is wrong with me? To be honest,
though I had never married him for his looks, but
I was definitely more attracted to him when we were dating.
All of this has caused a block in our sex life.
I'm wondering if a lot of this has to do
with the comfort level of being married for almost four years,
because nine times out of ten, he just smells bad,
whether it burbs or farts, I like, she says, whether

(44:04):
it's not him, whether it burbs, farts are a bad cough.
We have been trying to better our marriage via marriage
counseling books, as we can't afford a marriage counselor. I
feel like I feel like can talk to him about
anything except this one issue of my attractiveness to him.
How can we even discuss that I feel if I
told him I wasn't a percent attracted to him, that
it would be a huge blow and may also lead

(44:25):
to him thinking I don't love him. So I think
I think you know you guys, Mike, and you can
both as a man's perspective, and then you know from
your knowledge, what do you think? Yeah, Mike, do you
want to go first on that? Sure? I mean that man,
that's dozy um for me. I mean, I don't know.
I don't know if Jana gain Well, I've said that

(44:47):
to you. I said that to you before though, Remember
when the infidelity stuff happened. I said, I'm not attracted
to you anymore. Yeah, but that's I gave you a reason.
Well maybe well he farts and burbs and you know
what I mean. That's like, hey, can you bring maybe
a little bit more of the like romance? And that's
what I was gonna say. You know, for me personally,
I think you're the same way is Janna and I
always want to impress each other, Like, I think that's

(45:10):
the way you and I will always be is. I
don't think couples should get too comfortable where they stop
wanting to impress the other person. Like when Janna and
I go out and we get dressed up, like we
complement each other because we want to look good for
one another. We don't just you know, go through go
through emotions like that's you know, something we take pride.
And so I think that in that relationship, that's something
that they should talk about. Is like, hey, honey, like

(45:32):
if she doesn't want to bring up his attractiveness, be
like I really want to impress you and like make
you feel this way about me or help you feel
this way about me, and you know, maybe he'll just
naturally want to do the same so she's more attracted
to him. I think I think Mike's right. People do
get way too comfortable. When I was married, I would
end up sending like, oh, this is what I want

(45:53):
from my anniversary, this is what I want for Hanakah,
this is what I want for Christmas, this is what
because he didn't know, so you end up getting. The
comfort level is so high that you just become these
strangers who are just emailing and texting each other yes
and comitating, and you're not. There's no romance left, there's

(46:16):
no communication, there's none of your needs are being met
at any level. So they need to bring the romance back.
It's only been four years. Shoot, mine was at seventeen years,
so we need to work on that now. Yeah, and
I'd say, you know, I completely agree with what you
guys have said, and I think that there's uh an

(46:39):
energy that also creates attraction. Sometimes we limit the definition
of intimacy or attraction to just one thing, like intimacy
only equals sex versus touching and talking and like sending
text to each other and all the other things that
could equal intimacy and at activeness also comes from like

(47:02):
the maculine energy he might be putting out, like the
stuff he's talking about at dinner, you know, the things
that he's bringing to her that would be a turn on.
So I'd be so interesting, you know. They say, if
you focus on what you love like you did in
the beginning of the relationship, there'd never be an end.
We start out focusing on all the things that we love,

(47:23):
like oh my god, his hands, oh my god, the
way he talks, oh my god, the thing you know,
like you just can't help but focus on all the
great stuff. And then as time goes on and hurts happen,
you start to focus on all the things you don't
like and that's what undoes us. So I'd be so
interested to see if she could start to talk about
the things that really turn her on, you know, like

(47:44):
we don't go to museans anymore, you know, you are,
like the things that they could do or talk about
that would really bring back that yeah, yeah, and that right,
And in that higher level relationship, that's your desire as
a partner is to be like, I want to rock
your world, So keep telling me, you know what, what

(48:08):
does it for you? Because it does change over time too.
And I agree with her that she didn't marry him
for his look, so this really isn't the issue. There's
probably something else, you know that maybe he's shut down
a bit energetically, or he's not coming home. Is on fire,
you do, And that's a cool conversation to have. They
can get that back, and I would challenge her. I

(48:29):
hope she emails responsive she does anything about this, But again,
like Janna and I talked about, is kind of ask
for what you need. Like you know, Janna likes to
sit back sometimes and see what I'm gonna do to
to choose her to make you feel special. Well, sometimes
in a relationship if they're at that kind of comfort level,
like remind him. I go to him like, hey, honey,
this is you know where I feel like we're lacking,

(48:52):
Like I would love for you to do X, Y
and Z, because because he might, he might think everything's
okay in his world. He might everything is fine, and
then next thing you know, she blindsides him with you know,
I don't think this relationship, this marriage is working. He's like,
what the hell just happened? You know, best best marriage
vows I ever heard where when the man said to

(49:15):
the woman, I promised to never know you. And at
first I was like, there's a lot of good thing.
I realized it was the best thing that you could
say to someone because every single day, so many things
happened to us that change us, you know, And if
they could bring that back, like act like you don't
know each other at all every day and be curious

(49:37):
about each other, then that creates a sense of openness,
you know, where anything is possible. Mystery is that is
that what you would say to to like the mom
at the end of the day that you know they
haven't had sex in a month and a half and
they're exhausted and tired. I mean, is it just is
it is it that too like kind of re igniting

(49:58):
something to you know, like we're friends at having a
sex in a while? Do they need the yann But
is that just like something where like you just have
to reignite and um spice it up a little bit,
like because I'm moms, like I'm so tired, I don't
want to have sex well, and so that would be

(50:19):
interesting to like change up you know, the ritual right
because yes, and the mom mode when you know you're
raising little kids, there's this period of time where everybody's
highest need is certainty. It's this routine and the same
same and make sure no one dies every day, Like
not a really great period of time for couples. So

(50:39):
I would say, you know, knowing what would restore a
really tired mama and have her transition from mom mode
into woman mode. That's the bridge that you know, we
as women should get good at getting ourselves over. But
it's so nice to have a man help you and
so you know when at the end of the day,

(51:00):
whoever's you know, babies are in bed. Would would a
really nice back together be something that would feel connecting
and right with a massage, feeling really good, and then
you know, with those sorts of things, it's highly likely
that it could lead. I mean, I asked Michael last
night to put lotion on my legs. Did any lotion

(51:21):
get on my legs? Negative? That's did not get my cue. Well,
I think we need to make a list all the cues.
This is my language, this is my and I just well,
I cannot thank you enough. You have made me laugh,
you've made me cry, you have given us some really

(51:44):
good tips. And again, I know a lot of my
wind out listeners need this, So thank you so incredibly much.
Can can I can my listeners find you somewhere? Yeah? Absolutely,
I have a website that's my name, Shari Healy dot
com and I'll spell it for you the H E
R I E H E A l E y And

(52:06):
there's all kinds of good into out there around how
to become the person you're here to be and do
what you're here to do on the planet. Well, I
love you, so you're so welcome. Thank you for having
Thank you. So. This was supposed to be the sex episode,
and believe me, I have so much sex stuff to

(52:26):
talk about. And ask about but it turned into the
Jana and My Couples Therapy episodes, which which I'm not
saying it did not disappoint because you guys were so
open that I was nearly in tears because I was
really in it with you guys, and I have empathy
and for both of you, because you guys are so

(52:50):
open that we're getting both sides and it's so honest
that it's mind blowing really and it's helping a lot
of people. Yeah, I hope. So I was terrifying. I'm
not gonna line yea, I'm proud of you. I am.
I'm really proud of you. Thank you for being open
to being open. Its couples out there. It does. I mean,

(53:15):
there's a one girl she's like I literally sat my
husband down and I said, listen to Mike. Listen to
his empathy for her when she gets triggered, please I
need that. And he was like, you know wow, like
and he was able to sit in her pain and
sit in you know. So I think that's I think,
having your side of things, and you know again like

(53:37):
we're you know, we're two years post, but you know,
and now we're able to you know, you told me
some things that I have to work on, and that's
you know, that's helpful for me and for the other
listeners out there that can relate to that. Okay, so
you guys know my obsession with Hello Fresh because again,
I'm not the greatest cook, and I love easy recipes

(53:59):
and the fact that they deliver the groceries to me.
I don't have to go searching in the grocery store.
It's so easy, thirty minute recipes. Like my husband says,
every time Hello Fresh comes, it's like a halo at
the front door over these the bags that are delivered.
What I love though, right now is this thing called
Green Chef. They actually are owned by Hello Fresh. But
the difference between Hello Fresh and Green Chef is that

(54:20):
Green Chef is the first U s D. A certified
organic meal kit delivery service that includes everything you need
to cook delicious gourmet meals that you can feel good about.
So yes, Hello Fresh is amazing, but if you want
organic meals sent to your door, then definitely go to
Green Chef. So again, if you want organic meals for
fifty off your first box of Green Chef, go to

(54:42):
Green Chef dot us slash Janna that's Green Chef dot
us slash Jana. I promise you it's gonna be the
best meal you ever rate. I have one more email, okay,
and it's from Holly. Hi Holly, And this will wrap
this up nicely. How did you know Michael was the one?
She's about to graduate college and she's borne with her

(55:03):
boyfriends since high school and she says I loved him
more than anything, but I find myself doubting the relationship
a lot. How did you know Michael was the one? Okay?
So this question has been asked to me before, and
it was always a one part answer. It's now a

(55:23):
two part answer. So the first part is I knew
he was the one from I mean, I know this
is the most cliche answer ever. I knew he was
the one from the moment I saw him, because I saw,
I saw a pain in him that I could relate to.
I saw, and then when once I got to know him,
and I was like, we we have the same struggles.

(55:47):
And I loved his heart. I loved his openness and
his willingness to to bear that. And yes, was it
perfect in the beginning. No, But for me it was
someone you know, he loved he loved kids, and he
you know, he loved he loved me. He loved me
for my flaws and that was huge for me. Now

(56:09):
the second part of this is how I know is
the one is because he has stood by me through
all the hardship and hasn't walked away. Because the one,
your one, does not walk away from all the hard,
hard pain and and the the past that we've had. Anyway,

(56:31):
you know, there's there's been so many times when again
he could have walked he could have walked away, I
could have walked away. But the one is going to
be the one still fighting for you in my opinion. Yeah,
what about you? When did you know that channel was
the one? Um? You know you after ten days of

(56:55):
even knowing each other in five hours? Yeah, um it was.
It was the week I was in Austin, I flew
out to Chicago to see her. I was in between
the time of off season and before training camp and

(57:15):
uh A flu show to see her in Chicago. I
had a great time. Were kissed by the monkeys because
we're at the Chicago's. It's so sweet. And it was
later that week I remember I was helping miss and
his now wife Marissa get picked up like a washing

(57:37):
machine or something like office, you know, from somewhere, and
when I was living in Baltimore and they asked me
like how to go. It was like two days later.
I was like, I'm going to marry this girl. It
was crazy. And they're like, at first I thought it
was just like infatuation because she's a celebrity and it's
just that whole package that goes along with it. I'm like, no, guys, like,
you know, I can't explain it. I literally couldn't put

(58:00):
it into words. And my buddy miss like he was
my partner in crime, like through college and stuff like that,
like he knows me in and out, and he was
just like okay, you know. Um. So from that moment on,
from that first week of meeting her, and for the
same reasons, it's just I'm was really never honest in

(58:20):
a relationship to my fullest extent, and to be that
honest with somebody that quick and find connection in flaws
that you have in character defects, it's like, you know, what,
what is this honesty thing? Like, what what is this
crazy feeling I'm feeling? So um. I mean it was
within the first week of knowing her and like James said,

(58:40):
knowing each other's hearts and where they are. You know,
regardless of the things that we've gone through now, it's
our hearts are still in the right place. We still
want the same things. Um we take we are taking
the hardest road to get there. But yeah, thanks yeah, um. So,
I mean for her if this guy, you know, she's

(59:01):
been with him since high school, A lot of people
would say, go out, explore the world and whatever. But
it's like, if she knows this guy is going to
stand by her, but she finds out anyone would find
out if I did not have doubt with you. Her
doubt comes from time to timetable, from high school through college.
It's like, I'm just saying, if you have to doubt,

(59:21):
listen to your gut, listen to your heart, because all
she hears is you've been with so and so, you
know ever since you know, high school, Like, don't you
want to go out and see what's out there? She says,
I love him more than anything, but I find myself
doubting their relationship. I know that's not what it says.
That's what people are probably telling her in her ear,
in her ear, and if they're not, and she is
doubting it. That's yeah, and that's something to be said

(59:44):
about that. But also it could just be it could
be off. Nothing, could just be from her age and
being like, man, I haven't explored what's out there, Holly,
I'm going. I was looking at Facebook. I'm talking directly
to you. I was looking at Facebook yesterday and scrolling through,
and I saw one of my high school friends with
her husband who she was dating when we were in

(01:00:05):
tenth grade. And I will be forty four in June.
So they're happy. They have I think four or five kids,
some of them are in college now and they have
been together since tenth grade. And that's it. That's like,
you know, Charlie and Shelley. Yeah, they're so cute to

(01:00:26):
my friends. One of my best friends from college, it's
like him and his you know, wife dated since high school.
They were kids basically, and now they're married and I
have a daughter, and I mean they're the best people ever.
They're so happy, you know, So that's possible, totally possible.
All right, Well, you guys, if you have any questions

(01:00:46):
or you need some answers, please please please email me
at Jane Kramer at I heart media dot com. UM,
thank you, Mike, thank you Jenn, thank you for winding
down with us, and we'll do it again next time.