Getting Through the Tunnel

Jana feels held back by fear of an anxiety attack, but she finds peace through lessons from her guest Gabby Bernstein, who leads Jana through an incredible meditation session. 

Find out what EMDR therapy is and why it might help you recover from trauma. 

And, Jana opens up about her struggles with anxiety post-divorce. 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janna Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast.
Do you guys know what my name spells? Backwards? God?
Damn the schools falling? Hold on a second, are you
going to say? Why are you laughing? No? Try it again,
right out right out, Jana, right now, Like, but don't

(00:24):
do don't do this, don't do this, swoop with the j,
do a straight with the j. Okay, but it doesn't
really spell you're implying that it spells anal backwards. It
looks like it. Yeah, everyone has been sending me like,
look at your name backwards Anal, And I'm like, I've
had a name for thirty eight years. I'm well aware

(00:45):
that my name spells anal. I would have never thought.
I just it's that thing going around with the balloons. Yeah,
but like I see, like the actual mirror image of
it is like behind Yeah, yeah, yeah, got it well.
Speaking as a cram, I mean, you know it can
always be worse, right dead joked. Did you have any

(01:12):
nicknames growing up? I mean when I was a little older,
people called me Kathy because I hated it, Kathy because
I hate it. So my college friends called me Kathy,
but now just cat. Joli about it wof not that
that's bad. Sorry, Kathyr but not no, But I mean

(01:33):
I have Kathy, like I know, older Kathy. I just
don't seem like Kathy. Well, like you're young, right, it
sounds like an old name. But also Katherine and are
two different names for sure. That's like when my friend
used to call me Jane and I'm like, my name
is Janna. That's a completely different Jan. I'm not six
years old, you know, Like, but it's the same thing. Yeah,

(01:54):
Kathy and Jane are both both are both boomer names. Yes, yeah,
my mom is Kathy seven. He said, hold up here,
Karen's like, no one would need their baby now, Kathy,
I mean if you did. And I'm sorry, but I
don't think. I don't think anyone would name their baby Cathy. Yeah,

(02:17):
I mean I imagine maybe, Like I mean, people name
like Nora. My mom's name is Nora, but like Kathy, like,
what's your baby's name, Kathy, Like I just like I
don't see that. I don't know maybe not no, And
I'm fascinated by that. I'm fascinated by the cyclical nature
of names. Like I'm Mark, my wife is Amy. There
are no baby marks. There are no baby amies right now,

(02:38):
like zero, not happening. What you think Mark's a biblical name,
you think could be like always popular, but nope, cycles
just like everything else. And I feel like, in you
know what, fifty years, all the old folks homes are
going to be full of Ashley's and Brittany weird. That's
so true, and then our kids are gonna be like,
like you would actually name your son Ashley like or whatever.

(03:01):
It's such an old person name. And it's like speaking of,
how much would it suck to have your name Karen
right now? Oh? Bad? That would be awful. Sorry, Okay,
that's amazing, amazing, point it would change my name, that'd
be really Yeah, sorry, Karen's that sucks, especially if you're

(03:22):
not a Karen. But if you're a Karen, you're a Karen.
But most Karen's names aren't Karen. What do you mean, Like,
most actual Karens are not their names not Karen unless
you get real lucky. Yeah. I liked having like I
liked being the only Jan in school. Yeah, like it

(03:44):
was unique for sure. Yeah, and the Katherine's unique at all.
I didn't know any Katherine's really, I don't think so
you didn't get that. How do you spell it? I mean,
like you know, it's like I mean j J N A. Oh.
I'm like, how do people not know how to splay
your name? Yeah? No, you have like three million. I

(04:06):
actually don't want Katherine time out. Everybody is anyone watching
The Bachelor? I heard he's I heard he's like, so,
I was hearing some rumors about how he was talking
to Um Susie said her name, yes, and I watched

(04:27):
back a clip. I was like, how did they even
air that? What was he doing? Gaslighting the hell out
of her? Like totally not even like and then Nick
Vile came back as it wasn't gaslighting, but it wasn't
like cool. But in my opinion, I'm like, dude, that
was gaslighting. And then the funniest thing was maybe I'm
just like whatever with it. But so I I was

(04:48):
talking to actually, I'll tell you afterwards, Um, and the
headline was the Bachelor Clinton doesn't think he gaslet Susie.
I understand that it appears that way, Like that's also
a very gaslighting comment. I understand that it appears that way. No,
it actually was that way, Like there's no way like

(05:11):
to edit out how he was like he didn't even
like he just totally disregarded everything. She was saying, Um,
East and uron do you agree or disagree? Well, I
just want to say one of ourther if I and
I heard radio podcast, the Almost Famous Podcast, interviewed Clayton
That's that's the one I've got the quote from from
yeah and actually yeah. I asked him if he was

(05:32):
gaslighting and he said, He's like, well, no, because I
looked at the definition of gaslighting and that means that
you're doing something with nefarious purposes and I did not
do that, So therefore it is not gaslighting narcissist because
there intentional and non intentional gaslighting. Yeah, I mean yeah,
I was like, it doesn't you're doing it now to me,

(05:52):
you know, But I'm like so like in my mind
then I go, okay, I know this is these are
all like you know, and even our therapist jokes about this.
She's like, it's these are very big words gas lighting, narcissists,
like they're they're overused like crazy right now. But I
also think we're understanding the definition of them, and to me,

(06:13):
it seems like he's if he's not even acknowledging that
like those were gaslighting comments and that he didn't even
like she was expressing her feelings, her thoughts, her emotions
and he just did not even like see them to
me again, which shows that he's not very empathetic at all.
And then to go on y'all's podcast and say that
it's like to me, he's just like, it's like he's

(06:35):
set in his own ways. I mean, he might, you know,
be checking off some major narcissist box. There's there too,
but I'm like, you have Catherine the full background here,
because she was saying to him, because he's the final
three now, all right, and that's when they do the
fantasy sweets, right, she spend the night with each of them,
so she was the third of the fantasy sweets. And
soon as he said to him, hold up, you know,

(06:57):
the first two were like, let's get it on. Let's
get it on, so you like, hold up, did you
sleep with the other two? He's like, uh, yeah, And
she's saying I have a problem with that. He's saying, what,
you're a problem with me sleeping with other women? If
I had known that was going to be a problem
for you, I might have thought about this differently. So

(07:19):
that's the that's the the idea of pretending that she
wouldn't care that you slept with two other people within
the past week is the most offensive part of it.
I think, Wait, they aired all of this. First of all,
well he didn't are any graphic love making, but but no,
but I'm saying that respond his They aired all of his,

(07:42):
like his how he how he talked back to her,
and I'm like, if if any any like good yeah,
exactly would be like I could totally understand how that
would upset you. You know, this is the unfortunate part
they were down to and you know, like I mean,
just completely turned it around on her. One sal in
person made her feel like the crazy one, which is

(08:02):
also gas lighting. I'm sorry you made her feel crazy.
She she didn't say that, but you made her feel
crazy to have that feeling. That is the definition of
gas lighting. Sorry, it is you were making that person
feel crazy. You did not validate at all, You didn't
even like yeah. And then Caitlin Bristo goes you know,

(08:24):
she she goes on to say, like I saw her
comment about how well, you know, when it goes down
to that, that's fine. You can have you know, like
for me to like, I would want to have sex
with them because I want to know that everyone's like
everything's working down there, you know. But if I was
in the opposite, I wouldn't, And if I was in
Susie's position, I would be upset. I get, I get

(08:45):
how that is totally hypocritical and totally not fair. Well,
I think it's just about being able to have your feeling,
whether whichever way it is. Yes, also agreed, you can
have an opinion and not be Yeah, okay, yeah, so
the fact that I mean, yes, it's the Bachelor world, right,
the Bachelor is different than real life. Yes, whatever she's

(09:05):
feeling is invalidable. Yeah, it doesn't matter what And that's
okay for her to that is totally normal for her
to feel that way. And the fact that he reacted
in that way is just so wrong. And I'm just like,
I'm I'm not a fan at all because he doesn't
because he doesn't acknowledge it. That's the thing. He doesn't
acknowledge it, and how he's handled it. Still like that

(09:28):
had a chance to come back and say, yeah, he
had a chance to go on one of the biggest
I heard podcasts with Benn and Ashley. You know, like
he's still and he's still defended. I could see how
it seems that way. No, there's no seems there's no
kind of it is how it was. Okay, So he
said he's the one that then came back and said,
I can see how it seems that way. Wow, Okay,

(09:51):
that's pretty bad. He should have said. I shouldn't have
said that period. Yeah, and I should have acknowledged for
feeling I like the idea of the day I proposed
to my wife. I said, Okay, so here's the I
slept with a couple other women this week, and now
I've decided you're the winner. Congratulations. I know what I know.

(10:11):
Now I know for sure it's you, Like, how is this?
How is that life? Like? I just I mean, I mean,
that's the fan poward to you. But now it's just
not my it's not my jam. It is very hypocritical
though of me. Huh. So you're saying it's hypocritical because
you would want to sleep with them to make sure
things were working out down there. But what is the
other side, Why are you being a hypocrite because I

(10:32):
wouldn't want him to do the same. Oh, yeah. No, Yeah,
that's hypocritical. I am voting it. It's funny. I would
be like, choose, just choose me, Just choose me. You
don't need to sleep the women choose me. Yeah, but

(10:53):
that's um. They can never make it on the Bachelor
or Bachelor or whatever. I wouldn't make it on either
one of them. Yeah, there's no way. Um. But yeah,
I I just I don't. I don't. I just I
really just don't like how he's handled. Yeah, it's unfortunate
backlash of what he deserves. Honestly, No, I'm saying I
shouldn't say what he deserves. It's what I just don't

(11:16):
like the backlash and how he's handled. I just don't like.
I just it just feels it feels very familiar. And
I don't like that he's not owning and apologizing. He's
not owning anything or apologizing. And I just don't unless
because that's not fair for Susie at all. And I
hope she becomes a bat short and Mary is an
amazing man. Oh she probably won't be. Props to the

(11:39):
Bachelor though. This season was very quiet and now everybody's
talking about the Bachelor, so hey, they know what they're
doing over there, you know, at the expense of the
kind of person you're going to be. You know, I
don't know. That's hard. I see your point, Mark, but
I don't know. Yeah, I mean, go Susan's all I

(11:59):
have to say. I don't I don't like him. If
he wants to be friends with someone, I have someone
he can be friends with, so they might get along. Um,
Mark Scratch has had on that one. I don't know
what that was. Don't worry about you're trying to hook
up Clayton with another guy friend. I know friends where

(12:27):
you're going, they'd be buddies. Yeah, they could grow up, Yeah,
totally braw and not apologize for they did. So, Oh
it's good. We're about to have Gabby Bernstein and she's
going to school us and make our lives better. So

(12:48):
stake a break and get her on. Oh Happy and day,
Oh happy day. When Jesus why why, that's why I

(13:13):
start singing it. I was like, why am I singing
happy days? Well, because Gabby Bernstein's book is called Happy Days?
How are you guys doing? You know what? Good? We
both had therapy today, so that was love therapy today too.

(13:34):
I'm gonna. We all had therapy today. I kind of
love that because we're all in a nice clear mental
today was like my, I don't know you all therapy
session was we can all go around. We're on the room.
Mine which is mine is later later? Okay, well you
can say what you're bringing to therapy if you want,
but no, I Mine was like I just needed to

(13:54):
like own a bunch of stuff today to my therapist.
You know yeah got that. It feel good? Yeah, it
feels great because she goes you know what She's like.
Not many people can actually come into therapy and tell
like the full truth. So I was like, I don't
think I told my therapist the truth for for like
a decade, right, same, I was like, she's the She's
the first therapist that I've ever been honest with. I've

(14:16):
always like I've always been like teetering on, Like it's
just I would leave out something or I wouldn't say,
well yeah I actually did do I did cheat on
that first or yeah you know what I mean. Like
I've always like teetered on like telling the truth because
you're now it's like all about where you're at. You
can tell the truth when you feel safe in your truth, right, Yeah,

(14:37):
there you go. What was yours today? More a m
d R. Good? Good, Yeah, that's good helping you. Yeah,
And I'm actually surprised because I'm kind of a very
what I'm not kind of I'm a very guarded person.
So I'm actually been surprised how well it's gone. Yeah,
because that's that you gotta get because even though I

(14:59):
have a hard time with the m d Yeah, I
think she was worried it wouldn't really work well with men.
It does. It works. Have you guys explained to your
listeners what E M d R is? Do you want
me to tell you? But but but re refresh our
listeners because yeah, it's it's so funny that we're starting
the conversation about what therapy was like today because literally
that's just exactly what I I just put out this

(15:20):
but happy days, which we'll talk about. And the joke
with my therapist is, who do you think is going
to play you in the movie? Because she's like the
number one role in this book other than me. You
know that through line of therapy throughout our life is
such a massive game changer for what we can show

(15:41):
up as now and so for E m d R,
which was a huge part of my therapy practice. I
will drive home what that is for everybody. It's eye
movement to sensitization and reprocessing. And so what happens is
when we stimulate the bilateral brain functioning, whether it's with
moving your eyes back and forth or having a buzzer

(16:03):
in either hand or a buzzer in either ear, the
brain opens up its window of tolerance to reprocess old traumas,
old phobias, patterns that we've been stuck in and literally
bring us out new depending on how big T the

(16:25):
trauma is, if it's a big T trauma or a
small TI trauma, it's a smaller, bigger T trauma like
being sexually abused or living through a catastrophic event or
having you know, alcoholic parent, or a small T trauma.
Could be often considered being bullied as a small TI trauma,
but that's actually, my opinion, a big T trauma. But

(16:46):
depending on how big or small the T in your trauma,
the longer may take with the m DR journey, but
it works. You feel relief immediately, Yeah, I did, I did.
I m dare with from anxiety and like that was
like a game changer because I like was having real
bad anxiety um a couple of years ago. But I
will also say to add to this point in which

(17:08):
I want to then go into your book, is um
my anxiety. I mean I still I had like a
minor one, but like, I have not had hardly any
anxiety post divorce. And I thought my anxiety would be
the most post divorce because I you know, I was
I'd be alone and this and all the things that

(17:29):
I feared. But it's like, I think when you remove
things that are I realized, I'm like, oh wow, that
was making me have a lot more anxiety. All the
like the toxicity and the you know, the all just
all of it, you know. So I think that was like,
we're really eye opening for me, Like, holy crap, I

(17:51):
don't have the anxiety that I had for the last
however many years. Well, yeah, you were living in a
state of hyper vigilance, he explained that, so you're you're
constantly on high alert, yes, and like in the trenches
and yeah, when you don't know, when you don't know
what you're going to get every day, right, So you know,

(18:14):
we all have have different attachment styles, and when our
attachment styles are activated in relationships, particularly romantic relationships, it
can really put us into a state of terror. Right.
So uh, let's let's say if you were feeling insecure
in that relationship, which we understand that insecure attachment, that

(18:37):
anxious attachment of what am I going to get today?
I gotta you know, fawn and cling to keep it
or I've got to I'm not gonna put words in
your mouth, but just speaking on behalf of the anxiously
attached trying to trying to stay, trying to hold something
that maybe falling apart or whatever it may be, puts

(18:58):
you into that loop of an anxiety. And in that
anxiety loop, you create this full blown body hyper vigilance.
The somatic experience of that is like constant state of stress,
constant state of terror, which then shows up in your body.
Is anxiety obviously may have maybe maybe it caused other

(19:19):
physical issues too. I mean that happens for many of us,
like gastro issues or neck issues or back pain. There's
so much that that comes out of that chronic state
of anxiety. Yeah, and I think I remember one of
my I mean, shoot, someone got her husband was a
saxotic snick and cancer, because it's just like what the
stress that anxiety causes on your body. And that's right,

(19:41):
it's right. And the chronic state of that chronic state
of of being in fight or flight. Yeah, you know
what am I going to have to find out today?
But Happy Days? Let's go to Happy Days. Tell me
everything about it. I'm so excited. I've ordered it on Amazon.
I cannot wait to read it. So what can I
what can mean? It's and actually what we're talking about

(20:01):
right here, right now. I mean, you guys went right
for It's Happy Days, but it's the guided path from
trauma to profound freedom and inner peace. In the book,
I talked about my journey of remembering. First of all,
when I first got clean and sober, I got sober,
I didn't understand why I was a cocaine addict. And
then putting down the drugs, I picked up workaholism, and

(20:23):
I poked up dependency and all of the other ways
that we run. And when I was thirty six years old,
I was by that point in my life, you know,
I'd written six or seven books, I've been on Oprah,
I'd had all these big life accomplishments. But I was
dying on the inside. Well, I didn't know, and I

(20:45):
kept questioning, and I was brave enough to wonder, you know,
what is behind this? And I was having panic attacks
and meltdowns and cracking and cracking and cracking. And a
few months into that, I had a dream and the
dream was of being sexually abused as a child and
confronting it as an adult. When I woke up, I

(21:07):
was like, no, making way, never going to look at
that again. Don't want to talk about that again. No.
And a few days later in therapy, my therapist and
I started to talk about some things we've never spoken
about before, and I remembered I had the full body
remembrance of a dissociated memory of being abused as a child.

(21:30):
And so that was the moment of recognizing, oh, that's
what I've been running from, that's the impermissible, that's the
exiled part of me. And I was thirty six. And
that also was the day that I began the journey
of really the undoing, the undoing and the reprocessing through
e M d R, through somatic experiencing, through internal family

(21:51):
systems therapy, which I'd love to introduce you guys too,
if you don't know about it yet, through spiritual practices,
through body based work and all that's in the book. Literally,
this is your about you guys are gonna I'm so excited.
It's the whole, It's my whole guided path from trauma
to profound freedom and inner peace. And I keep saying
out loud that like, there's literally no freaking way in

(22:15):
hell that I would put my name on this cover
and my face on this cover with that subtitle if
I wasn't on the other side and living that subtitle
of profound freedom and inner peace. And so this is
like the trauma cliff notes of what to do when
you're in that moment of facing into your truth. But like, hey,

(22:38):
that's amazing. The other part of me is like how
do you get there? Though, Like I'm like what, like
tell It's like tell me that, like because it's like
I want to be the girl on the cover of
that book. You know that's actually really um beautiful vision
Janna is I want to be the girl in the
cover of that book. In the beginning, I actually asked
the reader to write a vision statement of like what

(22:59):
is it feel like? Where are you going? And so
that was kind of cool. That they just went there.
I We'll tell you. It begins with having the willingness
to accept and recognize that you've been running, that there's
some ways that you've been running. An anxiety is actually
another form of running from the pain and the suffering.
It's sort of a what in internal family systems is
known as a protector part, and to witness and notice

(23:22):
all of the ways that we've been acting out, whether
it be addictive patterns or uh. Because truly, you know,
underneath all addiction is trauma. I'm sure you're very familiar
with that. So we build up all these coping mechanisms,
which I refer to with my training with i f
S as protector parts protection. So work ahol is um,

(23:44):
drug addiction, sex addiction, love addiction, UM, anxiety, these even
physical pain is like another protector part to avoid having
to face the exiled, impermissible child, parts of shame and
trauma big to your small t And so the first
step is really witnessing and noticing all the ways that
you've been habitually in these patterns of numbing down, pushing down,

(24:07):
and anesthetizing the impermissible, and then goes into the chapter
of becoming brave enough to wonder, and I very gently
take the reader by the hand and just help them
begin to acknowledge and notice what might be underneath that suffering.
And all along the way, I'm constantly guiding back to
different therapeutic models so that they can get the resources

(24:28):
and support and take it further and talk about how
trauma affects the body and the somatic experience, and how
we hide behind the body. I go into a lot
of body based practices in the book, and in the
next chapters that come, I talk about internal family systems

(24:49):
therapy and how we can reparent ourselves. I also, of
course talk about E m d R and I give
E m DR practices that somebody can do in real time.
I'll give you one right now. So if you're not,
if you don't have the privilege of having an m
d R therapist yet or ever, here's a practice. So
it's called rage on the page, where you journal for

(25:12):
twenty minutes. This is based on the work of doctor Well.
The journaling method is that my girlfriend Nicole gave me
this method based on the work of John Sarno, who
was a mind body doctor that really focused on the
psycho somatic effects of our trauma, and so meditate for
twenty minutes, excuse me, journal for twenty minutes. It's called

(25:33):
I called it rage on the page. So get your
out for twenty minutes in your journal, and then meditate
for twenty minutes for the reprocessing, all the while listening
to E M d R music. So I've got a hold.
We can put this in your show notes, but I
have like a whole playlist for the M d R
music and letting it just just be that bilateral brain stimulation,

(25:53):
back and forth, back and forth, back and forth while
you're raging on the page getting it all out, and
then in the twenty minutes of meditation reprocessing. So that's
just a practice in there. That's an example of many
practices in the book. But that's when that people could
begin to do, and museums you are safely on their own.
I've been I've been writing a bunch that would be helpful.

(26:15):
I'll incorporate those other two things because I think I
leave it just with the rage, and I don't I
don't then recover M M. And you're writing a book
right now, I cannot confirm nor deny. Okay, So when
in your lifetime you decided to write a book. I
really recommend doing some of the E m DR meditations

(26:38):
when you're done with your writing process, because when you write,
I know, whatever book he writes going to be very
deep and it can also be re traumatizing and triggering
to do so, so just make sure you take care
of yourself with that kind of music afterwards, and obviously
like book ending with therapy and things like that. Writing
this book for me was extremely activating, and it was
for activating for all my loved ones and publishers and
everyone that that that read it. You know, read you, guys,

(27:00):
the introduction, just for a sect, like three paragraphs, just
to give you a sense of what happened when I
wrote this book. You know what might come introduction, the
truth about this book. We're anxious for you, Gaby, said
my publisher after reading the first past of the manuscript.
It feels too vulnerable, they continued, You're revealing one difficult

(27:22):
moment after the next. You're not showing your true strength.
My ability to be this vulnerable is my true strength,
I responded. The conversation carried on with several moments of tears,
passionate explanations, defending the manuscript mixed with mutual agreement and love. Well,
this is a challenging conversation to have. It was necessary.

(27:44):
This book is different from the eighth that came before.
This book reveals parts of me that I had never
known were there until I started this writing process. This
book tells the story of how to survive and thrive.
This is my story of recovering from trauma. Wow. OK,

(28:15):
I'll remember forget when my my editor called me because
I had it. We had a second book deal with
Mimi and Max, and then obviously that went away, and
I told her what I wanted to write, and she's like, well,
I think you should wait until you're like happy and
in a new relationship. And I was like, I don't
want to touch on like a guy in my next book,
Like I don't want to be like, oh look at me.
I'm happy now, I'm in a relationship and I've got
it all figured out because of X. And So I

(28:36):
think there's something so beautiful about like the vulnerability that
you share, and I think people are scared of that.
It doesn't mean that you're weak or you're not strong.
It means that you're so freaking strong. You know because
you're sharing it and you're you're relating to so many
people like M. I think what I love about is

(28:58):
like when I whenever I read book, so I'm like,
I don't want to know how just like how you
figured it out, Like I want to know, like what
you went through, M, and then how you got to
like where you're at now, and then also like I
also want to know too from you, Gabby, like yes,
you have happy days and you've worked through your unfortunate
trauma and your anxieties. But it's like I also want

(29:20):
to know, like I've been in therapy for however, fourteen
plus years, and it's like I also want to know that,
like it's normal that things still come up and then
I still have to face it and like I'm not
just like oh I'm great and I'm free and I'm
so happy, you know what I mean, Like because I'm
like I can't like because or maybe I didn't, I
don't know, Like I feel like I'm gonna forever be
growing and healing and learning and maybe things will pass

(29:42):
trigger me and stuff like that, Like yeah, I guess
I can say that while I can put my face
on this cover and say that I am on the
other side. I still have therapy at tonight. Sure, I'm
still shining the crystal that is me. I'm still focusing

(30:03):
on strengthening the practices that I have in my internal
landscape and being able to really use life as an
opportunity to get closer and closer to these methods and
live them and know them in my heart. And I
don't think that we stop, but I do think that
there is there is a light at the end of

(30:25):
the tunnel, because I do know what it was like
living in trauma and PTSD and working through it and
not thinking that there was a light at the end
of the tunnel, not thinking that there was ever a
way I could feel safe in my body, not believing
that I could ever feel safe in my letting people
in more closely, being more vulnerable with close people in
my life. And now I can. So I really want

(30:47):
to give voice to recovery and to what it looks
like to be on the other side and then really acknowledge,
you know, like I've been in sober recovery for sixteen years,
I still ard of myself as an alcoholic and a
drug addict, because we don't want to forget where we
came from. We don't want to forget who we are
capable of. But I have addressed the root cause condition

(31:08):
of that addiction and being on the other side of
the addiction and now the trauma. I I want to
remember and I want to stay closed and I want
to when I would say, when things get good, keep
keep working harder because you want to really maintain and
sustain that level of peace and inner freedom. So is
it when someone says, like, you know, to stop, you know,

(31:31):
bringing it the past and like it's shameful and stuff,
so that it's like when someone is still has their
shame ahold of them, Like what does that? What does
that mean? Does that mean that they you know, they
haven't worked through it or mm hmmm um. There's a
chapter in the book called Speaking the Unspeakable, and it's

(31:51):
all about shame and it helps the reader recognize their
shame response because we all have different types of shame
response is depending on maybe we have we have many
I can I can share with you some of them.
And facing our shame is the most shame is the
most impermissible feeling, and so facing into that shame can

(32:13):
be horrifying, terrifying, I did a workshop on this last week,
and it was like people got really triggered and activated
when they were just even acknowledged that shame and gave
voice to it. And so we have these different ways
of avoiding and pushing and running from the shame. So
denying the shame, right saying like oh that never happened,

(32:35):
I'm fine, or things were a lot better than I
than I than I said, or anything like that, right
attacking others. So when we feel shame triggered and we
go into that shame response, what our initial response could
be to go attack back, because we don't want to
face what's within, so projecting out what we don't want
to look at, and there's attack yourself. Right on My

(32:58):
mantra for many many years was I'm a piece of MHM.
That was literally the what I said to myself on
a daily basis, even while writing multiple self help books.
I still but I want to really identify this because
that's what my publishers were saying that like, we're nervous
because you're being so vulnerable, you're not sharing your true strength.
And they were right in a way, because I wasn't
showing that I was able to be strong, and I

(33:21):
was able to be a presence and a source of
light in people's lives. And I was able to be
an expression of spiritual truth and be a spiritual teacher
and show up in those ways while going through so much. You're, Jenny,
You're a great example of that. You know, It's like
you were still in the pursuit of freedom and sharing
the truth and bringing light even in the midst of

(33:43):
some of your darkest moments. And I find it so
fascinating that we're back here right now. Guys. When we
first spoke was like the week that you were talking
about your divorce. Yeah, and and you know, I will
say it's then, I mean, it's it's almost been a
year since my divorce, and just like seeing the light

(34:05):
and seeing how different I am, It's like there is light,
but in that moment, you're like, there's no light. I'm
gonna be in this pain forever. But even your bravery
to speak out back soon, Um, but you're even your
bravery is just to tell the truth about where you
were at was a step closer to that light. You
don't realize that in the moment when you're in the

(34:25):
thick of it. Yeah, But being able to give voice
to these truths. Yeah, how do you deal with UM
walking through this in your relationship? Is it hard? Yeah? Yeah,
you know. Listen, my my husband edits my books UM
after my my editor at the publishing how but in

(34:46):
house editor, and then it goes to Zach and then
it goes to the publisher. And he was really triggered
by this book. I talk about my suicidal, my experience
with suicidal postpartum depression. That was like super activating for
him because it was trauma for him to living through that.
And truly the fifteen years that we've been together, he's
lived through my trauma journey and that's also traumatizing for him.

(35:11):
So we do a lot of work. We do a
lot of work on our relationship. We do a lot
of work. UM. We practice internal family systems therapy, which
I'm trained in now, and we have this powerful practice
of being able to witness each other in these different
parts of who we are. So when I'm seeing him activated,

(35:33):
I can think, oh, that's a child part that's super
activated right now, and rather than raging at him, I
can have compassion towards him. That's major. Yeah, what would
be UM when I was talking about therapist to day too.
I was telling her, like, you know, it's just it's
hard being in a relationship post a healthy relationship after everything,

(36:00):
and how do you, like, what would you say to
like me or other women that like are in that
next relationship um to like not let the anxiety of
a what if? Or I don't want to be duped again,
or like um or like manifesting or I don't know.

(36:21):
I just I feel like it's just like really hard
to like feel like it's real. Sure, so, so a
lot of it is about forgiving your ex, forgiving my ax. Uh.
I'll tell you something, Gabby. Let me say this. I
do not want an apology from him anymore. That's what

(36:43):
I wanted for like a year. Mm hmm. I do
not want an apology from him anymore because I don't
I won't say, I won't believe it, and be I
don't think he'll ever apologize. I kind of got into
a place now where I actually don't even want it
and I can say that and like, really you mean that, right? Great,
But I do have a hard time for giving someone

(37:05):
that doesn't acknowledge the abuse. Wow. Yeah, that's how that's tough. Yeah,
I guess forgiveness comes from the seat of compassion because
and I'm not suggesting that you push yourself into this,
but it does help in your future relationships and your
current new relationship because forgiveness dissolves the history, because when

(37:27):
we don't have forgiveness, we're taking the past and projecting
it onto the present and the future. Forgiveness we can
dissolve those past experiences and be present in the present
without bringing the baggage with us. So the one of
the clearest pathways to forgiveness is through compassion. And so
I'm going to speak about your ax, and I hope

(37:48):
this isn't triggering, but I'm gonna speak about him as
a as someone I know, not I don't literally know
him at all, but someone who I have tremendous compassion for.
And you may not be here yet, Jenna, right, but
I just want to speak on behalf of one addict
to another. When we become addicted, we are in what
is known as like a firefighter protect or state, and

(38:13):
and we are doing whatever we can to numb out
impermissible feelings from our history. Go ahead, I was just
gonna say, that's not what I want him to like,
that's not the piece that I've already forgiven him. I
forgive him on the that added part. It's the other stuff.
It's not being able to own up to his his

(38:35):
ways of being. Is that correct? The yeah, the like
the abusiveness behind it all. Let's take that even further
than someone who could be that abusive and not own
up to it is seriously suffering mother. Someone who could
be that abusive and not own up to it and

(38:56):
not care for the mother of his children is in
a extreme amount of pain and suffering, and it is
extraordinarily terror, terror filled with terror at the fact of
facing those truths. Or maybe I'm just crazy because he
seems to be happy. Well, listen, one of the ways
that we pushed down our shame is denial and dissociation.

(39:22):
And so this this man, there's no way that he's
not living with a lot of impermissible shame. And so
his way of coping, potentially and God bless him, is
through denial and association, creating a new storyline. It wasn't
that bad. I wasn't that bad. Everything is okay. I'm
going to show myself that everything is not bad. That
was straight up to And then also Another of shame

(39:46):
response is to attack back, to blame and shame the other,
because there's his extraordinary shame is too painful and too
impermissible to feel into that all he can do to
survive is to blame and shame you. So my point
is not that that that this is dubbed for you, right,
That's not my point. That's like, you've been through so much,

(40:08):
you are so strong, you are so brave. My My
point is that he is severely suffering, so to have compassion,
which then leads to forgiveness. If he just started to
practice to lean into what he must how hard it
must be to live in that shame. Okay, I can

(40:30):
look right away. You just shifted instantly like wow, that sucks, right,
that really really sucks. That really sucks, right, like you
know right now we all want to like and it's
not excusing. I want to say, it's still not an
it's not excusing anything. It's not like yeah, forgiveness does
not mean that you excuse the behaviors. Forgive. It means

(40:54):
that the behavior is no longer run your world. Yes, yes, yes,
yes like that and feel like you used to. I mean,
I understand it's different now because you're not divorced anymore,
but you were really good at being in that place
for him and being compassionate. I mean, I mean, you're
divorced now, you were not divorced then, but you it

(41:16):
was so easy for you. In my perspective, I felt
like it was so easy for you to have compassion
for him in the midst of all of this and
to feel you would talk about his shame and you
understood that he was in his shame. So I just
feel like, now if you could in a way put
yourself back there and kind of go back to where
you did have compassion for him, um, I think that

(41:39):
could be relatively easy for you, honestly, because you were
very compassionate towards him, Yeah, and also understanding his shame
response and having this new level of awareness of like, oh,
this guy is living in so much shame that he's
using multiple different shame responses to to stay alive much, Right,

(42:00):
So he's got his attack back and shame and blame
to you so he doesn't have to feel what's in
And then he's also got his denial and dissociation and
he definitely has attacking himself, which does not share openly
or publicly right, So he's probably carrying all the shame responses.
There's more, and so just to sort of have a
greater level of awareness of the suffering and the human

(42:23):
condition of suffering and the ways that it plays out
is a path to forgiveness because the more we understand others,
the more we can recognize ourselves in them, and the
more that we can have compassion towards them. Yeah, I
like that a lot. I think that's that's really good.
I'm gonna I'm gonna write about that one like that one.

(42:54):
I know it's not an easy answer. I mean, shoot,
I have been searching for it for years and obviously
it's gotten better, but you know, struggling with anxiety and
I hold myself back from doing things that I want
to do. Like, for example, I'm up for something. I
can't say what it is, but it would really really
really push me mentally physically. And the one piece that

(43:19):
I don't want to do it is I'm like, well,
what if I have an anxiety attacker of my anxiety
and I can't do it? So it's like, is there
something that like and I know anxiety was just fear
of is that it is a fear of the unknown
or fear of what's would you want to work? Okay,
so I'm I'm trained in I f S, which is
which is a model about getting connected to these protector

(43:42):
parts of ourselves and helping them relax. Would you want
to do like a two minute practice with me to
just talk to the anxiety? Is that comfortable or safe
for you? Right now? It's not about going into the anxiety,
it's just kind of getting to know what it needs. Sure, Okay,
we'll be safe, don't worry. Yeah, it's super safe. Actually,

(44:05):
so where do you notice the it's almost right now
that we have the fear of the anxiety, we don't
even have to talk about the anxiety. And seeing the
fear of the anxiety not correct. So let's just talk
to the fear of the anxiety. Mm hm right, where
do you notice that in your body? It's like an
elephants sitting on me, elephant sitting on you? Okay, really

(44:27):
good descriptive work. You don't thank you? And this fear
where is it in the room? Like, is it next
to you? Is it in you? Is it? It's all
in my chest, in your chest? Here the box, it's
a box. It's a rector? Good? Okay? Is there a
color red? It was black turned red because I think

(44:48):
you're shirt okay, and now just check in with it.
Is there anything else that is being revealed about this
fear of anxiety? So yes and no? Okay. The only

(45:10):
reason I say yes is because like my like first
past relationship or whatever, because he was on top of me.
And so whenever I feel like my chest tight like
that anxiety, it just I go. It triggers me back
to that moment of like I can't escape. So I'm
like I'm stuck and I'm trapped, which, yeah, like I've
just trapped. Okay, Okay, So the part of you that

(45:34):
feels trapped, can it? Can it step aside for a
moment and just like have a coffee outside, we're gonna okay,
let's go have some tea and we'll talk to you later, okay,
Because you want to talk to the fear right now,
bring your attention back to that fear and just notice

(45:54):
anything else that comes up about it. Anything. Is there
an age? Is their gender? You think about the fear
of anxiety? Nothing else? Okay? Is it just sort of
an energy? How would you describe it? I think it's
just like, um, it's just kind of there. It's like
a little like devil, you know, it's like a devil

(46:17):
on the right shoulder because it's like because I've done
so much freaking work about therapy, but it's still there's
still like a little piece just like always hanging on,
like not letting me fully live like without any But
I'm like, does everyone have like, don't you have anxieties
or no, like things that will hold you back that

(46:37):
you'd be scared to a part of you right now, Jenna,
that's coming up. That's that's trying to deflect. Can we
ask the deflector to go have some tetooth. I'm not
gonna get the deflector is gonna have a smoke? If
that's a flector, that's a great idea. An American spirit
yellow pack. Oh I miss it, beautiful, enjoy it now?

(47:01):
Does this part of you the fear of anxiety? How
do you, Joanna feel towards this part of you? Oh?
I hate it? You hate it? Okay because it just
makes me feel like weak, you know, and like yeah,
I hate it. I don't I don't like even like

(47:22):
bringing it up because it's like Okay, yeah, I don't
like fear. Does the fear of the anxiety no that
you're here with it? M yeah, m hm. How does
it feel towards you? Were pals? Repels you? No? No,
we're pals. You guys are pals. Okay, okay, you're like,

(47:44):
am I your most complicated case ever? No? Not at all.
So you and your anxiety are pals, but you joanna
feel towards it? You hate it? Yeah? Okay, Okay. I
want to send a little bit of compassion and love
to your fear of anxiety, your fear of the anxiety,

(48:07):
because it's working really hard for it's working really hard
to keep you safe from impermissible anxiety. I just wanted
to send a thank you to it for its efforts. Okay.
If that fear of anxiety wasn't doing this extreme job

(48:29):
of just you know, making you crazy and making you
hate it and working so hard, what else would it
be doing right now? I mean, if it wasn't there,
I would not I mean, I give it, um, I
give it energy. Okay, so I'd be giving you back

(48:50):
some energy, but it wasn't so extreme. Yeah, yeah, okay,
what else would this part of you be doing? If
it wasn't having to be in this extreme all of
try keeping you an alert. I mean, it could it
could be like my support mm hmm hm beautiful. So

(49:13):
if it was supporting you, what is that? What does
that look like to you? It would basically be like
my It would basically be like you got this, Like
you're going to be fine, Like nothing's gonna happen, and
if it does, we'll work through it. M beautiful, Like
you can get on the expressway and out of a

(49:34):
panic attack, you will be fine, you know. Okay, beautiful? Okay,
because I still can't drive on an expressway, but I'm like,
I'm gonna have a panic attack and I'm would be
trapped in So if it was supporting you, is there
a place in your world that you feel supported? Yeah?
My friends with your friends. Okay, could you invite this

(49:56):
fear of anxiety to queendown? Yeah? Yeah, sit on the
sofa with you guys and like, drink some wine and
just chill. Can you just visualize that for just a
second as we wrap up this process, just notice what
it feels like to bring the fear of anxiety to

(50:17):
your crew of your your girl going and your people.
How does it feel when it's with you. Guys, I
kind of want to love on it. M there we go, Janna,
thank you when you want to love on it. What
would you say towards it? You're okay, You're fine, like
I got you, Like it's all gonna be okay, You're safe.

(50:39):
Mm hmmmmmmm, you're safe. Okay. Can you make a commitment
to your fear of anxiety that the next time you
notice it you can bring it to the sofa and
you're in your sweats and your girls and your wine
and you can hang out and just visualize what that
would look like. Yeah, I'll do that or I'll damn

(51:00):
me one of the two. Maybe for the sake of
this moment, you make the commitment. Okay, yes, yes, yes,
I'll bring it into queendom. And so right now you
can feel into that feeling of feeling love towards it. Yeah,
now my chest isn't any There we go. There we go.
Thanks Gab God, I love you. Hey, we always you know,

(51:23):
you're so fun to do work with, Like last time
we tapped and now super open and what you did
just explain to your listener which has happened so by
by noticing and giving voice to and focusing it on
the part that part of you, and seeing it as
something separate from you, not you, it's not you, it's
a part of you, and being and giving voice to it,

(51:44):
and asking all those other protectors that we're trying to
get in the way to step aside and of a
coffee and a cigarette or continue a cigarette. We were
able to have a conversation and connect to and create
a direct line of connection from your adult, resourced, undamaged
self to the fear part. M And the same way
you would speak to your children is how you were

(52:05):
speaking at the end to this part, like you're good,
I got you, I'm going to take care of you.
You're safe with me. And so this is a process
of becoming your own internal parent and bringing that fear
back to safety. The more you really create that established
direct line of connection to that fear, you won't have

(52:27):
a panic attack, because often panic attacks come on because
of the fear of the panic attack. Really just got
to work with the fear and just invited to come
back to the couch and just take care of it,
extend compassion towards it. Gabby, I love you. Um our

(52:48):
listeners tell them everything. The book where they can get it. Obviously,
I just got mine on Amazon, but go for it.
And by the way, I mean, I must have a
book on the way to you guys, So just stay
stay open to whatever is in the mail. Um um, yeah,
you know the books on Amazon. It's it's called Happy Days,
The Guided Path from Trauma to Profound Freedom and Inner Peace.

(53:09):
It's never been more of a timely topic than today.
And I believe that we all deserve to no one,
that we're not alone in our suffering, and to to
be given the guided path out. And that's my prayer,
my intention for this book. I really hope it helps
people create a lot of serenity and self soothing and support.

(53:30):
And then they can find you at on Instagram. I'm
at Dear. I met at Gabby Burns you on Instagram.
I have a podcast that I called Dear Gabby where
I worked on people like I've had the privilege of
doing here with Jetta, And yeah, that's where you can
find me. All right, Gab, thank you so much. I
appreciate you. I love you, sweetheart. Thank you appreciate your heart. Also,

(53:51):
one thing, I'm coming. This is not for the show,
but I'm coming to when thinking April. I'll send you that, Okay, yeah,
send it to me, text to me. It would be
fucking awesome to hang out with you. I would love it. Yeah,
something Tina cigarette, Tina cigarette. You know, I'm not not opposed, Okay,

(54:14):
so long. That would be if there was like something,
if I was like at a party and like everyone
was like doing coke in the corner, I'd be like,
can I have a cigarette? There? You go? Well, let
let me know. Seriously, I'd love to see you, fine,
love to hug you. Okay, friends, definitely, I'm gonna make
sure your books are over there for you guys. Why
I ordered one too. But I love you, Okay, okay, okay,

(54:36):
all right, girl. I love her. She's so sweet. She's great. Yeah,
she's great. She's just got like a really good heart.
You know, like she's been through some stuff and I
feel like you can either go like one way or
the other. Sure, and like obviously she's taken, you know,
she's used her pain for good and help helping others.

(54:56):
So there's so much hope in that, you know. I Mean,
it's just really good for people to see that there's
light at the end of the tunnel. But I also
like to know that, like it's not just like, oh yeah,
like I don't have any struggles anymore, because that's like
where I'm getting Like, I'm like, are you like every day? Well,
I'm sure not. But I think people really do have

(55:17):
to see or they're not going to put in the work.
Like I know, for me, if I didn't believe that
there was some kind of light at the end of
the tunnel, I don't know that I would put in
all the work, you know what I mean. It's almost
like being on a diet totally right, Yeah, absolutely. I
meant if you heard my stomach growling the entire time,
so hungry, I'm so hungry. I mean I'm eating, don't worry,

(55:37):
it's just time for me to eat. But I'm for you,
it's like, right, it's like that same like you have
to know that there's like because if not, that's what
you're just going to keep. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard, it's definitely. Yeah,
you've got to put the work in. For a lot
of people, you have to know, you have to have
that hope of what's at the end of it. Yes,
it's still going to be struggling even if you lose

(55:57):
the weight, You're still going to struggle and you're still
going to have hards and you're still gonna but you
have I feel like people have to hear that part
of it or they're not going to put in the work. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean I have to hear and I know what
you're saying because you want to hear but you were
just fixed and everything is just better because I've been

(56:17):
doing this for how long and I'm not fixed? You know.
I I hear you. But I think for a lot
of people, especially new to therapy, they have to hear
that hopeful yes, like what is going to end up
at the end for me? I mean, I mean same.
That's like why I like read books, and that's why
I like you know, because it's like I want to
know that, like things can work out from bad things.

(56:39):
I want to know that, like and which is like
why you know, I like sharing. It's like, hey, look
at like you can move on from divorce. It's like
but in the moment when you have your friends, Catherine
mean like you're going to get through this, I'm like no,
I'm rob so hard to see it in like moment, Yeah, absolutely,
because it's like I'm sure. Like it's almost like, like
I said, go back to going back to like starting

(57:00):
or you don't want to start it because it's like
it's hard to like start, it's hard to start therapy.
It's hard to start. Like but there is light at
the end of the tunnel, and that is I think
they're like driving home, there is hope, there's there or
why would you keep going or why would you start?
Because if there's not a light or hope at the end,
then who would start anything? But you know what, it's

(57:22):
almost easier to start than to keep going sometimes in
both senses, the diet and the therapy, because it's hard
work and yeah and yeah, yeah, It's like I was
talking to a girlfriend at dance and you know, they're
having like some issues in their marriage, and she was like,
it's easy, not easy to start. It started and it's good,

(57:44):
but then it's like to continue like doing the things
that we need or whatever. It's like then you just
kind of fall back or fall off the diet or
you fall off you know, the therapy or whatever, and
it's like then you're back to like the dark again. Yeah, exactly,
we're gonna get through. There's gonna be light at the
end of the tunnel, because there is there always is.
I've never seen a tunnel where it doesn't, I mean

(58:06):
unless you're like on the I mean shoot, even in
shaw Shank there you got through the tunnel like he
dug the tunnel and then there was there was I'm serious,
there was the nice man outdoors and you know. But anyways,
all right, squirrel moments. So you guys, wee bye. Actually
just got her book in the mail, and so I'm
pretty pumped to start reading that because I was hooked.

(58:27):
I'm hooked by the intro. It's gonna be good, very good. Um. Okay,
so there's exciting things happening. Wine Down is going on
the road. Got some Nashville, Atlanta, in Chicago dates. So
go to Jane Kramer dot what Calm's It's not like

(58:52):
that has been your website for at least ten eleven years,
is it? Is it on the website Jane Kramer dot
com com backslash tour? Oh there you go, thanks manager. Um. So, yeah,
it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be it's gonna be
a good time taking some some girls out. I have
a follow up on something we talked about earlier the Karen's.

(59:14):
It turns out Karen's are not the most likely people
to exhibit Karen like behavior. Maybe the name is not fair,
That's what I said. Karen's research says that the most
Karen like behavior goes the women named Louise. I was
just gonna say, my daughter's middle name is Anne and Jane,

(59:37):
and my middle name Mark. Okay, stop being a Mark.
We're going to start Jane. I don't well, the male
version of the Karen is the Kent. So wait, hold on,
did you say Jane, Louise and Anne? Is that all

(59:57):
your name? My middle name is Anne used to Ramsey's
middle name is Jane? Is Louise? Sounds like y'all? Are karens?
Sounds like it? Two definite press parents. Well good too.
It's good to know to all those people out there,
looks like you're the real Karen near defense, the real

(01:00:19):
karens Um all right, I have nothing else. Talk to
you guys next week. Fight