July 5, 2021 • 44 mins
Jana lets us in on what helped her make the difficult decision to end her marriage, and she shares a shocking realization about something all her romantic partners have had in common.
Marriage and family therapist Dr. Vivianna Coles helps Jana understand the different types of intimacy and gives her some advice on how to trust again.
And when is the right age to talk about to your kids about sex?? Jana learns how to keep that conversation from getting too awkward.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
So Catherine, you're gonna kill me? Oh no, like kill me.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
But it's scared.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
So this episode is about sex.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I'm so mad at you. Well, have fun hosting by yourself.
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well, we have doctor Vivienna coming on. She's actually a
sex expert. And you know, when we were discussing you
coming on the podcast, You're like, I can come today,
and I was like great. I was like I would
love for you too, because you know, sex just isn't
your favorite topic in the world.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Not in front of like, however many people listen to.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
This, it's in front of Okay, Okay, it's right, you're right,
you're right, and so, but it just so happened. You're like,
but I have to be out from this time to
this time, and I'm like, oh, I was like, it's
like you somewhat knew that, Like you like that you
(01:16):
had to be unavailable from like the time that she
was able to be on because that's how much she
loathed talking about sex.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Thank god.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Where do you think that comes from? Is it like
a like a taboo thing from like.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Probably from childhood?
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, we didn't talk about it a lot, very like
southern Baptist Christian family, like it just wasn't We didn't
talk about a whole lot, but definitely not sex.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So what do you how do you think you'll do
that with the kids then, so that way it's not
like the you know that kind of we've.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Actually talked about it a lot, you have, Yeah, yeah,
I've already had like a full conversation with my nine
year old.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Now the nine yeah, hey, they say eight is too late. No, yeah,
I know what.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I didn't even know it sex was until like, well,
yeah the freshman year school.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Well I definitely knew before that, but I heard from
everybody else, not you know, my family.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
How old were you when you honestly found out about sex?
I heard about sex.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I think I was like eleven, probably fourth or fifth grade.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I mean we talked. Grade is when they teach you
about sperm and stuff, right, isn't that word?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Like I just don't think my kids.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There was a video we had to watch where it's
like you saw sperm like this little like floaty thing,
and then it talked about like our periods, and then
I just remember being like this sucks. But that was
fifth grade and then never spoke about it again.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
So what did your parents talk to you about it?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Not once?
Speaker 4 (02:43):
So you just went the opposite way. You love to
talk about it and I hate to talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It just you know, but yeah, so, I mean, they
honestly say eight is too late.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Well, the problem is is that when people start talking
so like, Okay, my twelve year old is a boy.
My husband had that conversation. But I knew one of
his best friends, when he was probably about nine, had
already had that conversation with his parents, had been asking
questions about other stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And what like kissing, touching penis is the giants.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Like rape, Like he had asked a question about rape,
I know, at nine, and so I was very concerned
that he was going to then have the conversation with Cayden.
So I had Nick have that conversation. I don't know
a whole lot about how that conversation went.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You didn't ask Nick for work, but of course you.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Know he had a couple of Burmans before. No, so
they've had that conversation. I left, and Kayden and I
have talked about it also.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Like what do you talk about? That's the thing, like,
like what's like a cause I'm like, so I don't
even know. I'm like, well you the vagina.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Well, here's the thing. It depends on the kid. Like
Kayden doesn't ask questions. He just sat there, so I
think it was extremely uncomfortable for Nick, and he talks
about stuff all the time. Yeah, any though, my nine
year old she asked questions, so it's actually easy, like
what kind of questions, Like, well, we started we're sharing
about periods. We started with periods, and then we walked
about tampons and how they and then you move on
(04:11):
and it's like, okay, have you heard of sex. Well
I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is.
It's like, okay, well that's where a penis. And then
you just but she kept asking questions, so it just
led to it. So we had a full on conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Did she ask like why do people do that? Because
like that would be a question I would ask like
why do why does a penis in a vagina get together?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I mean I think she did.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I think, what do you say? Like it just feels good?
Speaker 4 (04:34):
I don't remember, and I had it like I was
so proud of myself.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
But having said that, I still don't enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Having it and talking about it.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Thanks, you know, mark the rule of thumbs kind of
if they're asking questions about it, it's time to talk
about it, and you can kind of gauge by their
questions how deep you should go into it.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
What do you think about the eight is too late?
Speaker 5 (05:04):
It depends on what they're asking.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
If they're not asking anything that, I'm not sure I
would just kind of confront them with it before eight
years old.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
I think I would kind of let them guide me.
Here's my rebuttal passive style. I'm a little passive.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Yeah, well, yes, I can be the rebuttal to that
is like my twelve year old son Is would not
probably ever ask a question.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
He would just let it go. So I don't know
that's hard.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, yeah, I think what like I never got the
talk from my parents, and they might dispute that, but
I don't remember ever getting it. I remember learning it
in fifth grade in school and going to my friends.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Like, did you guys hear that the penis goes into did.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
You know that?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Yeah? Yeah, we all knew that.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
I'm like, oh man, we wanted to do the same
video last one on sex, and that's the problem though,
when you asked all your friends, they already all knew.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And that was fifth grade.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Yeah, my daughter's going into fourth It might have been,
but she was the one with a million questions and
it just led to a question to a question to it.
So it honestly was easy because it just I just
had to answer them. But so she already knew a
good bit.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I'm sorry. The fact that Mark just said I learned
that Santa Claus wasn't real, that a penis that goes
into a vagina was probably the best thing I've heard
this Monday.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
That was the last one on both of those of
all my friends.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Oh that's going to be the same, mean the Santa
Claus thing, that's going to be. How old were you?
I think I was actually probably in fifth grade.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I don't remember. I just kind of pretended.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Forever I was really late because one year, some friends
of my parents stopped by on Christmas Eve after I
had gone to bed, and they had just been at
a Christmas party, so they were a dressed as Santa
and Missus Claws in full costume. So the next morning
my parents showed me a photo they took in our
living room with Santa and Missus Clause.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
So as far as I was concerned, this was proof.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Nobody could tell me Otherwise I would never be convinced
because I had photographic evidence.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
That is the cutest thing ever.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
Though.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I love that. I mean, and I think Santa Claus
and you know, mister Clause, like Missus and mister Clause.
I think they had sex, you.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Know, although they did.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Did they have babies?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
No, there's not little there's just the hells.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But I don't think hilarious Doctor Vivianna, who's coming on?
She has these four uh different I think it's I
think it's four intimacy styles.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, good thing I gotta get. I just it's I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Do you just not enjoy it?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
It just makes me uncomfortable to talk about I don't
know why.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
It's like our rule no talking.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I'm just kidding. Yeah, it's fine, it's fine, all right, Well, Catherine,
I know you don't want to talk about it. I
won't talk about it anymore. I just I like sex.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Yeah, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I do. I think it's healthy. But that's but I'm
not saying it's not not healthy. Like if that's something
that you don't like to talk about We don't have
to talk about it. You know, I'll keep pushing you,
but I know you will.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I'll get there and you don't.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I mean again, like some people, I'm not comfortable with
what am I not comfortable with confrontation? Sure, so I'm
not comfortable with that. I don't like talking about confrontation.
I usually just cry or or delete my number. That's
moving to a different country. Hate confrontation. So yeah, I mean,
(08:32):
we all are uncomfortable with different things. So I love
you and I appreciate you. Know, go have your meeting.
Pam's going to hop in for you. Thanks, but I'd
love to have you back for some emails at the
end of the show. Okay, because you have you are
good with everything else but sex.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Okay, thanks, we'll.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Be back butt sex.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
That's such a guy.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
So we have doctor Vivianna Coles coming on. She has
a new book out called The Four Intimacy Styles, which
I have. I don't know anything about that, do you, Pam?
I don't know anything. I would love to know because
when I hear like, I'm like, there's different styles, Like,
isn't intimacy just intimacy? Like you think right, right, I mean,
but now you know reading that, it's like, well, I mean,
(09:32):
just like everybody's different, I'm sure they're right. I love language. Yeah,
I feel like it's one of those things too where
when you know, you think about like love languages and
intimacy and all that, it's intimacy, isn't just sex. But
for a long time, like I thought that sex was intimacy.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
And if you weren't having sex like with your partner
or you know, then like something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, because it's like it has to be wrong, right,
Like clearly we're not intimate, and isn't being intimate having sex?
Like what ways do you like feel like what fills
your intimacy cup? I mean I'm kind of the same
way two girls just want to have sex.
Speaker 7 (10:14):
Well, I mean for me, it's like that's the like
the common bond, especially when you're married and you have
these kids and you're like running around and can you
can easily turn into just like co parenting and you know,
like partnerships and parenting instead of like really you know,
focusing like on your relationship. So I feel like, you know,
(10:38):
then that brings that relationship, that more intimate relationship right,
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
That was always like such a struggle because that is
my thing, Like that's in our I remember our couples
therapist is always like okay, like what other ways can
can you find intimacy? And I'm just like, but can't
it just be sex too? Like like I I enjoy it,
like I wanna I would like to have, but there's
I think it's you know, also like handholding and those things.
I mean, I think I've always been like fearful, like
(11:07):
you know when like the sex stops or isn't there
as like much as it was, is the relationship stopping?
Oh it's a good question. Well, doctor Vivianna is in
the waiting room, s let's bringer in and ask her.
That's a really good question. Okay, So we were just
talking about obviously intimacy and you have there's four different styles,
(11:30):
so we're dying to know what are those four different styles.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:34):
So in my book The Four Intimacy Styles, I go
into great detail about how important it is to not
just know what your own intimacy style is, but how
to round it out so you can have that lasting
physical connection with a partner, which is super important. So
they're bonding release, giving, and responsiveness, and all four of
(11:54):
them are valid, all four of them are necessary. And
I think that what a lot of people don't realize
is that they might think that bonding is the ultimate
way to experience intimacy and sexuality.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
But you mean as bonding sex? No bonding is because
I didn't hear sex and that, I'm like, a sex is, Like,
isn't that Like we're just saying like that's our number one?
I'm like, what, so which one? Which one is that?
Speaker 6 (12:19):
So I'm only talking about sexuality here. Emotional intimacy. There's
so much information about there out there about it, but
physical intimacy is what I'm all about in this book.
And so bonding is a type of intimacy style. So
you might feel that in order to feel physically connected
to somebody, you have to feel emotionally connected to them,
(12:42):
and you do that through experiencing sexuality with them, So
that creates that bonding. And then giving is when you're
that person who says, if you're okay, I'm okay, you're
experiencing pleasure because of something that I'm doing. Oh my gosh,
I feel so close to you, I feel so connected
to you. And then release is whenever somebody says, I
(13:04):
really just want to get off, Yeah, and in order
to really feel connected to you, I need to get off.
And then we have responsiveness and people who say, you
know what, I'm not really thinking about sex right now,
but now that we're kind of into it, I'm into
(13:25):
it and I feel close to you and maybe we
can do it again soon. But they're not the ones
experiencing that spontaneous desire that a lot of people think
should be happening. You know, it doesn't happen to everyone. Actually,
very few people experience spontaneous desire that makes them them
want to motivate. You know, their partners have sex. So
you need to have all four if you're going to
(13:46):
be with someone forever and be getting lucky.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Interesting because what happens if you don't have that because
you were just asking what was your question and you
basically said, like, if you don't have that.
Speaker 7 (13:59):
Yeah, it then like what happens to the relationship, Like
it's I feel like, you know, sometimes when the sex
stops and isn't as much as you know it was
maybe before, Like then yeah, like I would just get
scared because of what happens to the relationship, then.
Speaker 6 (14:14):
Well, a lot of people are experiencing it right now.
You feel like this dullness, this grayness that comes across
all of the good times. So you might be experiencing
that French to you know, that feeling of like you're
my content b and I love you for that. But
if you don't have the physical connection and you're not
experiencing consistent, satisfying physical intimacy and a relationship no matter
(14:38):
what it chooses to look like, you're going to end
up either together but really dissatisfied and possibly even looking elsewhere,
or you're going to end up feeling like physically you're
you're you know, things will start atrophy, You'll start to
experience depression. It can really be something that you know,
(14:59):
emotionally drags you down, physically drags you down, and then
of course a lot of people will just leave their partners.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, I mean I remember, oh, in my past relationship
like that's it was just one of those things where
I'm like I wanted it more than like my partner,
and it was very hard because it's like I didn't
feel like it was asking for a lot, but I'm like,
I'm happier when we do it makes it even if
I didn't get off, it was just that connection. Is
(15:26):
that that's like what I like need, That's all I needed.
But firstly, I.
Speaker 6 (15:31):
Think for a lot of people, they don't realize that
most people sign up for monogamy right, and so they're
signing up for this. You are the only person that
I can do this with. I can tell everybody I
love them, I can kiss my dog, my doctor will
see me naked, I'll you know, maybe on a girl's chip,
share a bed with someone. This is that one thing
that you're only expected to do with your partner, and
(15:54):
if it's not happening, there is going to be a
feeling of something missing. And like you said, it doesn't
always have to look one way. And that's why I
think it's so important to know your intimacy style and
to know how to round it out, which is I
truly believe the key to making sure that it's lasting,
because we all want, you know, when we get married
or we decide to partner up with someone for a
(16:15):
really long time, we are truly thinking we're going to
have this intimate connection both emotionally and physically forever, but
we don't know how to do that, and I've been
seeing client since two thousand and three. I finally was like,
you know, I got to get this book out and
just tell people this is what it takes to be
physically connected forever, because nobody wants to get divorced. Nobody
(16:35):
wants to break up. Nobody wants to have that investment
and then have this physical connection, you know, dissipate or
just not be satisfying, and then that's the reason why
they end up divorcing. The other thing is that I
think in America we judge people for wanting to have
sex be a really prominent part of our relationships. It's
(16:55):
almost like, well, that's that's not a good enough reason
to be the satisfied. Is that y'all are having sex. No,
it's a really good reason. It's a valid reason, and
it's not you know a lot of people say infidelity, abuse,
not caring for children, all of those things are good
reasons to leave someone. Well, so is not having this
sexually fulfilling life.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
What happens or what do you say to the people that,
like a therapist will say, let's take sex off the table.
Speaker 6 (17:24):
I think it's important to take sex off the table.
But that's not physical intimacy. If we're talking about sexual
intercourse or orgasm or very specifically, you need to ask
your therapist what do you mean by that and what's
the point If sexuality is your way of coming back
together and ignoring what you just went through and sweeping
(17:45):
it under the rug and that's your go to pattern, yes,
you need to take a break so that you can
really focus on what's happening between you emotionally. But for
a lot of people, they do use sex as kind
of like a band aid, and that's where therapists will say, Okay,
we need to not cloud your judgment. We need to
take a break from this. This is a bad cycle.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And if you're getting like kind of in a rut,
is knowing your because you said like with knowing your
intimacy styles, that's where you're going to have long lasting,
like great sex, but to stay fresh? Is that also
like good to know your intimacy styles or like what
happens if you're like, all right, we know our styles,
but like it's just I've been with this person for
(18:27):
this long and I'm kind of like, how do you
even have it? Because sometimes it might be awkward to
be like can we do, like like how to have
the confidence to say something to like freshen it up right.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
So, if you're trying to round out your intimacy style,
which then would mean that you're trying to adopt twenty
five percent of each of the four styles into almost
every sexual interaction, it takes some work. And I'm going
to give you lots of examples of that in the
book of what you can do to be more getting,
what you can do to experience more release, what you
can do to be more responsive, what you can do
(19:00):
to experience more bonding. You're gonna have to put those
into effect. And now I have a quiz that will
help you to determine what percentage of each you're at currently,
so that you can know which one you need to adjust.
And again it's great for engineers, but it's also great
for people who are like, I don't know what I'm doing.
I just know that sometimes we're feeling offfed well. The
(19:23):
book definitely gives you lots of examples, but for instance,
with somebody who's not used to being responsive. I've gotten
a lot of people who tag me on their quiz
results and they're like zero percent responsive, and they think
that that's good, well know, because what that ends up
looking like in real life is that their partner is putting.
(19:43):
They're not able to allow their partner to take the
lead at all.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So they're partners.
Speaker 6 (19:49):
Taking the lead, but they're feeling like it's not enough.
So for instance, they they're the ones that are always initiating.
The person who's zero percent responsive is always initiating. So
their partner's like, okay, you're not giving me a chance.
They might take a lead emotionally, but physically they're not
giving the chance to step up. And so that's when
people say you never initiate. I always do, so it's
(20:11):
important to take turns.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
But what if you know, I mean, for so many
years they don't step up.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
And that's I mean.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
In my office, I'm always dealing with people who don't
know how to initiate. They either feel like they try
for so many years, so now it's your turn, you
take the the time. That's not the way a long
lasting sexual relationship will work. The other thing is some
people just feel super awkward, like they do like a
team again and be like, oh, I'm going to put
myself out there and you're going to reject me. The
(20:43):
other time is they are awkward and they sometimes like
use a different voice, or you know, they like they
walk around being kind of funny. Silliness is fun, right.
Sex is play for adults. So I get that. But
if every time you're going into this you feel like
this rush of oh my gosh, I feel like I'm
going into myself. Do you mean to have a conversation
(21:05):
with your partner and just ask them what's the sexiest
way that I can initiate verbally nonverbally? Do I light
a candle on my set of the night standing? You
light yours when you're ready. I mean, there's so many
different ways to get it done. You just have to
make sure that it's happening.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
What do you do when the other person doesn't like
that they're very selfish and it's kind of like, wait,
what we're done? Like like want to try to like
you know, it's and yeah, So what would you say
to the women that are kind of in that situation
(21:41):
where it's just like and they don't even seem to
really care or try or to like attempt to like
get the person off.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yeah, this is.
Speaker 6 (21:51):
Why it's so important to have this conversation and share
the for intimacy styles with a partner, because you can
have that conversation without it being accusatory. Oh, we're supposed
to both be experiencing release. Oh we're supposed to both
be being giving, instead of it being you're all released
and you leave me high and dry. Sometimes sometimes, yeah,
(22:19):
I think it's so important that you have that conversation.
You say, hey, I know that maybe after you get off,
you're exhausted, or you're in like your own world, you
don't even realize what's going on. But maybe I need
to seek my pleasure before you experience your climax, because
otherwise it's not happening, or you know, sometimes it's all
(22:42):
about what it is that you're doing, the positions that
you're experiencing. But speak up. So many women do not
speak up because they don't think it's lately. I wrote
about that in the book too. They don't think it's ladylike.
They don't think, you know, they're supposed to be, you know,
all after the pleasure. But if their partners think that
they're doing okay, they're going to do the minimum and
(23:02):
we're going to be less resentful.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, no, it's so true. I mean, for I feel
like in my like I've just found my voice, I
think with like sex, which is so interesting because it
was probably towards the very end of my relationship where
I'm like, hey, like I'm in this too, Like can
I can I have a little something afterwards? I mean,
I think the voice also comes with like growing an
(23:24):
age and yeah, that's where they say, like women in
like their late thirties, forties or you know, know what
they want and they are going to speak up. Yeah,
and it's true. Are you do you feel like you're there?
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (23:37):
I mean because it's like, then what are what are?
What is the other option? You're going to live another
forty years not being pleasured.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Right or being like I guess I'll just grab my
vibrator from the side table. It's like it's either passive aggressive,
you're resentful, or you go somewhere else or you look
somewhere else.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
So yeah, yeah, you're gonna end up losing interest, which
is the last thing that your partner really wants, because
you'll end up losing interest in sex, and then guess what,
You'll lose interest in them.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
And then someone else will probably look shiny somewhere else.
You'll be like, oh well, I can. I'm sure they'd
have sex with me.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
They look like they have a rounded out intimacy soyle.
But I do think it all goes back to even
if you haven't found your voice, Let's say you're in
your twenties, let's say you're inexperienced. Let's say you're in
your forties and inexperience, whatever it is. I do think
it's important to say I have something that I want
to be able to talk to you about, like our
(24:36):
intimacy style. And again, the book is such a great
catalyst for these conversations because you're saying, this is what
this expert is saying, what do you think? How are
we measuring up? You don't have to accuse, you don't
have to criticize, You just bring up the conversation. You know,
I use the five Old languages all the time in
my practice. It is such a great way to just
(24:58):
get that conversation started. Emotional intimacy that otherwise couples may
not want to talk about because it may come up
as a criticism. It's the same thing with the four
intimacy styles, talking about how rounded out you are or
how you need to kind of tweak things to be
rounded out, there's no criticism.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, I am so excited to read the four Intimacy
Styles and everyone that's listening go get your book. And
where else can our listeners find you?
Speaker 6 (25:23):
Yeah, everything on line is doctor Diviana dot com. Just
spell it out, Doctor Vivianna dot com on for Intimacy
Styles dot com is where you can find the three
order for the book. I'm really excited to talk about
sex in a way that people can all people can
feel like it's it's something that they can talk about
(25:44):
in a way that isn't taboo. It's you know, it's
really appropriate for what we're all trying to do, which
is just be in love and be in love forever
in connection.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I love it. Thank you so much for coming on
the show. We'll be back with more sex talk. Bye girl,
Thank you so much. That was awesome. Appreciate you. Okay, Okay, Mark,
(26:17):
let's get our mind out of the bedroom, although it's
really fun to be there. But we have any emails.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
Yeah, and these might take you back into the bedroom.
It goes Caitlin and some of.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
These are a little heavy, but Caitlin asks aside from well, okay,
so it's time to get personal Chatta. Aside from Mike's
obvious infidelity, were there other issues in the relationship.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Maybe one's not as big and glaring.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Is a problem that you looked past for a long
time for the sake of having your family unit and
having a partner, where they are red flags present in
addition to the sex addiction aspect.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
You know, I thought I was like helping other people
with these emails.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
This is just like, is this uncomfortable? Now You're I'm
consortable just saying.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
You know, there there is a thing called the pros
and cons list that you do when you are I
think in high school or middle school, maybe now these days,
or maybe that's just aging me because maybe kids don't
do pros and cons anymore.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I think they did.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Did you ever do a pros and cons list? But
then you broke up with someone, You're like, here's the
pros for sure?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Oh? I think I don't think that's something that goes
away with generations.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Oh you don't think so?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
No, I don't think so. Okay, I mean they're probably
doing it in the notes app on their photo or something.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
But people shall make that list, Like you know, I
still like pull out the paper, still like here's my notebook.
If I was just talking to my buddy Justin Sylvester
about this on his podcast, and I think at the
end of the day, and again, this is something Catherine,
(27:58):
when I was having my my mental breakdown on Laurel
Canyon a few weeks ago in la you put the
cheating and infidelity aside, there's a list of other things
that are still very that are not acceptable as a husband,
like lying and some the characteristics. I'll say, there's characteristics
(28:27):
that were very hard to overlook that just wasn't getting better.
And I think again cheating aside, it's very hard when
you look at the characteristics of Okay, this is you know,
this person is has a history of lying, has a
you know, so yes, there there were that was what really,
(28:51):
at the end of the day helps me sleep at
night knowing that because of these some of these certain
characteristics and my characteristics that we just don't gel well
together in the end of the day. Yes, how's that answer?
Speaker 5 (29:13):
Very dipresab I thought it was great. Do you fear
that you are drawn to people who have these characteristics?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
So my issue is I am drawn to people that
will never fully love me because it's something that I
I always want, and for some reason, I go to
the people that I know deep down can never love
me the way that I want to be loved. And
(29:42):
so my battle is I want to show and prove
that I'm lovable and worthy enough and try to win
that person. That's my issue, and that's something you're working on, Yes,
very hard with a therapist. Yeah, with you know who
you guys talked to last week, Amy or a few
(30:03):
weeks ago, Ama, Alexander. Yeah, that's that's definitely because I
look back. I I have this journal from back from
two thousand and two, and I look back and I'm like,
why did I stay in that abusive relationship? Why did
I stay in this situation when this person was cheating?
Why did I? And it's like, if I loved myself enough,
(30:24):
I would have never stayed after Mike che had done
me a month into our relationship, ever, never, because I
would have known my worth. I would have known that
I was good. I did not deserve that, that I
was good enough that I didn't need his his actions
to confirm that I'm enough. And that's where I want
(30:45):
to be in my next relationship, where I know my
worth so much that I will not settle for a
second for what I know. And now again, nobody's perfect.
I'm not perfect. Still a lot of stuff I'm gonna
have to work on in the next relationship. But again
it comes down to the characteristics of someone and how
(31:06):
they treat you, and not staying with someone that doesn't
fill your.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Cup all right, as Devon Franklin says, filled cups, filled
cups exactly.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
This is from Morgan and it's even heavier.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Okay, great.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
My question, unfortunately revolves around a painful part of your past,
so apologies, miscarriage and trying to conceive. My husband and
I miscarried in January of twenty twenty decided to try
again right away.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Since then, we've been unable to conceive. When we've found
out that.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I have endometriosis, we're about to go into our fifth
IUI attempt, and I have decided that IVF is not
an option for us. My question, I guess, is when
do you give up and accept the fact that it
just might not happen. I've been struggling with this, but
the ups and downs of getting excited and hopeful and
then crushed when the next period comes is just taking
a huge toll on me. I better off getting away
(32:01):
from all of that heartache and moving on and just
being happy with my life and wonderful husband.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
Or should we keep trying for children.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
I mean, it clearly sounds it's something. First of all,
sorry you have to go through all that if it's
obviously your love and your desire to be a mom
is very present because you're taking those steps. And I
know you said that IVF isn't for you, I would
just I don't know anything honestly about endemetriosis, but I
(32:30):
would just say, even though you say IVF isn't for you,
maybe look into it just a little bit more. I
don't know if again I don't know, like if you
can't do endemetriosis with IVF, I'm not really sure. But
iuis are not as effective as IVF, and again I
know how expensive it can be and all those things.
(32:51):
But I think when your love and your desire to
have that family for me personally, I would want to
do everything I poss simply could to say, okay, I've
now done everything I could, which is as aggressive as
IVF is as aggressive as okay, and demetriosis, how can
(33:11):
we as you know, is there a way that we
could maybe save money for surrogacy or adoption. That to
me is when and if all those things those boxes were,
then you know, okay, we tried it, we tried it,
we can't we physically can't afford it, or we you know,
check check, check check. That is then when it says okay,
God like, maybe this wasn't the plan, and that is
(33:33):
when I could walk away. But I would for me personally,
I would have to check off all those boxes.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
I would too, and I never had to go through that, thankfully.
But did you buy.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
UI or I went straight to IVF because I heard
that it was more right.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
That's what Yeah, that's what I've heard. But I would
do the same.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
I would try everything, all boxes until there was you know,
I mean, you can't leave yourself no money, but you know,
I would try everything to be a.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Mom, Heather says, Hi Janna Mark and Easton ah Well,
listening to the podcast today, I had a thought about
something that hasn't really been touched on.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
My question is mostly for the boys.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, out of the news of Jane's divorce hit you,
did you suspect it would one day come to this
or were you completely blown away.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I love getting Mark and Easton and on this. This
is great. I love how Easton just like popped into
It's like I'm here. But this is a great question though,
because you know, we were a family, all of us together,
So I am, yeah, I'm curious to know that too.
Thanks for the question.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I I'll go first only because I was widely quoted
in a number of publications about this.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yes, you were. We never talked about that, but yes.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
It was weird. It was so.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Weird because I feel like you've been quoted before, haven't
you at Seacrest.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I mean maybe at some point, but it was still
it still kind of came out of nowhere, and I
didn't see it coming. I was like, hey, that's my name.
It's very It's always odd to see your name in
US weekly, and when you're me, you know, when you're you, you're.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Probably used to it.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
But anyway, I was totally blown away, and I acknowledged
in the article that maybe that makes me stupid, but
I said, on this very show, I said to you two,
I said, I can't guarantee that you're going to be
together forever, but I am sure.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
I'm convinced that Mike will not stray again.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I had the wolf pulled over my eyes, just like
everybody else did, because I was convinced that he had
done the work and was in a really good place.
So when I heard that things had gone super sold
for you guys and this may be the end, I'm
so stupid. I thought something else has happened, something else.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
Has gone wrong. It can't be that.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
It's anything but that, And of course that's the obvious thing,
and of course that's what it was. So yes, I
was absolutely shocked by that.
Speaker 8 (35:46):
Yes, I mean I feel the same way. I really.
Speaker 9 (35:51):
I mean, with all due respect, I have seen Jena,
I've seen you and Mike fight more than I think
anyone else in my life.
Speaker 8 (36:01):
I've been there, like intimately for a lot of it.
Speaker 9 (36:03):
But I really, I really, I was convinced that he
had beaten that part of his challenges.
Speaker 8 (36:11):
I really thought that if you guys.
Speaker 9 (36:13):
Were going to split out, what was going to be
for uh, I don't know, I mean, he was I know,
he spent a lot of money on those app games,
Like I thought it was gonna be something like that.
Speaker 8 (36:22):
I really didn't think, I don't know, I was I.
Speaker 9 (36:25):
Was totally blindsided by that, and it it really I
don't know, I just I felt like as a child
of divorce, like I I, it brought back a lot
of similar feelings because I was like so conflicted about
this person that I'd become close to and that I
thought I knew, and then this, you know, I I
was discovering things I didn't know and and severity I
(36:48):
wasn't really aware of. And uh, I don't know, it's
a it's a really it's a really weird feeling to have,
but I was.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
I was definitely blindsided by.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
That, which makes me feel a little less crazy because honestly,
like when I did see the thing mark when you
quoted that, I was just like, oh, he's just he's
lying about that, Like of course he saw it. Like
you know, we fought all the time, and you know,
you know I was snippy at times or I was
this or you know, and but it makes me feel like, okay,
(37:20):
like he was good, Like he had us all kind
of fooled. And so that was where I'm like, because
I it just makes me feel like I'm not as
crazy as I thought I was.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I feel like the snippiness and such was always justified
from the previous behavior, Like, I know, that's how difficult
that is to get over and regain the trust. So
I totally understood that. I just felt like, so I
never felt like that was inappropriate. I just felt like,
you tw were moving in a really good direction. And
I also think, and I don't know Mike well enough,
and it would be inappropriate for me to say this
about him, So I just speak generally, when a person
(37:56):
lies so deeply it became comes like it becomes real
to them. It seems like it becomes and then then
they're really good at it because when it becomes their
own reality, it's easy to sell it to friends, coworkers, family, whoever,
because they're just like, it's like they're not playing a
role anymore. They've become that fake PERSONA.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
It's scary.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
And that's a my therapist I say, she's like, that's
a that's a very scary thing when you can lie
that deep and that and convince that many people. And yeah,
I think, and that's that's the hardest part, because I mean,
like I was, yeah, I mean the book, I mean,
all of it is just it was like the biggest
(38:40):
kind of blindsided betrayal lie and it's it's still hard
to sit with. But I mean, Catherine, I think, has
a very opposite opinion.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Well, I will say I think everybody. I think everybody
thought y'all were really good. Yeah, and me included, I
did think y'all were really good, minus a few little.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Things, even the last fifteen months.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Yeah, I thought y'all were really good.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Like there's a few things that came up.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
With Well, there were definitely a few things that were
on the phone.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
What was like someone downloaded or what that.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
Yes, there were several things, and then just like little
things that we saw in the past, his behavior would
kind of allude to things going on. So I think
I think everybody thought you were good. I thought y'all
were really good. I think, you know, putting out the book,
about to work on another book. I mean, I wanted
to think that everything was good. But I just had
(39:45):
a very hard time believing him, just to be completely honest,
you know. I mean, my mom was a big liar,
you know, and so I recognized liars, and I just
always had hard time believing him. I Mean, I loved him,
you know, and I wanted to believe him, and I
wanted to believe that y'all could really work through this
and make it work.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
But ultimately saw so ultimately I was.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Wondering when the other shit would drop for sure, sadly,
I mean, I hate to say that, but that's the truth.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Did you guys pull the book or did the book
get a boost in sales out of curiosity or did
it just kind of tank?
Speaker 5 (40:23):
Like I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I have no idea, honestly, I haven't even asked. But we,
like two weeks before finding out everything, we had gotten
another book deal about trust. Wow, the book was going
to be about trust.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
I mean we'd had a call about it like a
week if not less about like like call about trust.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Can I imagine? Like, oh my god, Like I mean,
first of all, how could we even be on that call? Like,
but I mean, what a thank God? Because I already
feel so Yeah, but again the first book, I'm my
words were very true and my experiences were true and yeah,
(41:04):
but yeah, total, that's it's tough. It's very and it's
very hard now to not be just so angry about
just all of it. But angry is not gonna it's
just not good for anybody.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
No, But it's understandable.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah, just yeah, just be honest
everybody out there, can you just tell the truth and
just yeah, that's all blot all, I got all I got.
But yeah, yeah, I mean I can't even imagine, like people, Hey,
(41:47):
the end of the day, I know what I get
to tell my kids when we have a very grown
up conversation, and I'll be proud of what I what
I get to tell them.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
That's gonna be interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Because my parents split up when I was like ten
and they got back together again after like six months.
I don't have the ability to google why that all
went down and how it went like, that's all going
to be out there, and that's that's interesting. That's just
a whole new level of something like this. But like
you say, you know, the side of your streets clean
(42:20):
if that's the expression.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, And I wish that they didn't have to, you know,
And a lot of people think that I was the
reason why it was out there, and I'm like, let
us remind everyone. He came on the podcast to talk
about it. I didn't force him. He was the one
that I was like, oh, wow, we're going to talk
about this, like we even have a recording of that,
going like you want to talk about this? So that
(42:44):
was not my decision. I mean, like, again, it came
out in US Weekly, that was already out there. Did
I want to talk about it? Sure, I would have
loved to, But I was never forcing him telling him
to talk about it. So yeah, because he came on
as a guest, and I was like, all right, I
guess he's good to talk about it. Okay, we're going there.
And from there, I mean, you know, that's when we
(43:04):
continue to speak on it. And looking back, I think
that was the you know, that was he had pressure
around that and him, you know, dealing with that was
was hard. Always being the bad guy, And what I
say to that is just don't keep messing.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Up like people made you out to be a bad guy.
The bad guy a lot of it, which was very
hard to sit and watch. If I'm you know, people's
comments coming after you a lot. He wasn't always the
bad guy. I mean, I understand that point of view, and.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
It's mostly watch this or do that too, controlling blah
blah blah.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
They were coming after you too, So I'm just saying
it wasn't just him, and I didn't cheat.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
That's so interesting though, that he always complained about being
the bad guy, and he never stopped doing the things
that made him.
Speaker 5 (43:51):
A bad guys.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Like, it's like, people keep calling me a criminal as
you're walking out of the bank with bags of money
in each hand.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Isn't that the like what's the saying?
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Like if you do something over and over, it's like
insanity or something like that.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Just you stop, just stop.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, but you know, hopefully he's healthy now for the
kid's sake. So AnyWho, let's talk about something else. Back
to Oh good, see now I got captain. Back to
that's great. I'd like to go have some right now.
(44:30):
Oh my goodness, gracious, Well, guys, I think that's a show.
I think I'm talked out. We're at the lake right now,
so I want to get back out there.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I love you, guys,
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
So Catherine, you're gonna kill me? Oh no, like kill me.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
But it's scared.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
So this episode is about sex.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I'm so mad at you. Well, have fun hosting by yourself.
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well, we have doctor Vivienna coming on. She's actually a
sex expert. And you know, when we were discussing you
coming on the podcast, You're like, I can come today,
and I was like great. I was like I would
love for you too, because you know, sex just isn't
your favorite topic in the world.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Not in front of like, however many people listen to.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
This, it's in front of Okay, Okay, it's right, you're right,
you're right, and so, but it just so happened. You're like,
but I have to be out from this time to
this time, and I'm like, oh, I was like, it's
like you somewhat knew that, Like you like that you
(01:16):
had to be unavailable from like the time that she
was able to be on because that's how much she
loathed talking about sex.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Thank god.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Where do you think that comes from? Is it like
a like a taboo thing from like.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Probably from childhood?
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, we didn't talk about it a lot, very like
southern Baptist Christian family, like it just wasn't We didn't
talk about a whole lot, but definitely not sex.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So what do you how do you think you'll do
that with the kids then, so that way it's not
like the you know that kind of we've.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Actually talked about it a lot, you have, Yeah, yeah,
I've already had like a full conversation with my nine
year old.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Now the nine yeah, hey, they say eight is too late. No, yeah,
I know what.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I didn't even know it sex was until like, well,
yeah the freshman year school.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Well I definitely knew before that, but I heard from
everybody else, not you know, my family.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
How old were you when you honestly found out about sex?
I heard about sex.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I think I was like eleven, probably fourth or fifth grade.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I mean we talked. Grade is when they teach you
about sperm and stuff, right, isn't that word?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Like I just don't think my kids.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There was a video we had to watch where it's
like you saw sperm like this little like floaty thing,
and then it talked about like our periods, and then
I just remember being like this sucks. But that was
fifth grade and then never spoke about it again.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
So what did your parents talk to you about it?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Not once?
Speaker 4 (02:43):
So you just went the opposite way. You love to
talk about it and I hate to talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It just you know, but yeah, so, I mean, they
honestly say eight is too late.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Well, the problem is is that when people start talking
so like, Okay, my twelve year old is a boy.
My husband had that conversation. But I knew one of
his best friends, when he was probably about nine, had
already had that conversation with his parents, had been asking
questions about other stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And what like kissing, touching penis is the giants.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Like rape, Like he had asked a question about rape,
I know, at nine, and so I was very concerned
that he was going to then have the conversation with Cayden.
So I had Nick have that conversation. I don't know
a whole lot about how that conversation went.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You didn't ask Nick for work, but of course you.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Know he had a couple of Burmans before. No, so
they've had that conversation. I left, and Kayden and I
have talked about it also.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Like what do you talk about? That's the thing, like,
like what's like a cause I'm like, so I don't
even know. I'm like, well you the vagina.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Well, here's the thing. It depends on the kid. Like
Kayden doesn't ask questions. He just sat there, so I
think it was extremely uncomfortable for Nick, and he talks
about stuff all the time. Yeah, any though, my nine
year old she asked questions, so it's actually easy, like
what kind of questions, Like, well, we started we're sharing
about periods. We started with periods, and then we walked
about tampons and how they and then you move on
(04:11):
and it's like, okay, have you heard of sex. Well
I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is.
It's like, okay, well that's where a penis. And then
you just but she kept asking questions, so it just
led to it. So we had a full on conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Did she ask like why do people do that? Because
like that would be a question I would ask like
why do why does a penis in a vagina get together?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I mean I think she did.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I think, what do you say? Like it just feels good?
Speaker 4 (04:34):
I don't remember, and I had it like I was
so proud of myself.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
But having said that, I still don't enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Having it and talking about it.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Thanks, you know, mark the rule of thumbs kind of
if they're asking questions about it, it's time to talk
about it, and you can kind of gauge by their
questions how deep you should go into it.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
What do you think about the eight is too late?
Speaker 5 (05:04):
It depends on what they're asking.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
If they're not asking anything that, I'm not sure I
would just kind of confront them with it before eight
years old.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
I think I would kind of let them guide me.
Here's my rebuttal passive style. I'm a little passive.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Yeah, well, yes, I can be the rebuttal to that
is like my twelve year old son Is would not
probably ever ask a question.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
He would just let it go. So I don't know
that's hard.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, yeah, I think what like I never got the
talk from my parents, and they might dispute that, but
I don't remember ever getting it. I remember learning it
in fifth grade in school and going to my friends.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Like, did you guys hear that the penis goes into did.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
You know that?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Yeah? Yeah, we all knew that.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
I'm like, oh man, we wanted to do the same
video last one on sex, and that's the problem though,
when you asked all your friends, they already all knew.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And that was fifth grade.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Yeah, my daughter's going into fourth It might have been,
but she was the one with a million questions and
it just led to a question to a question to it.
So it honestly was easy because it just I just
had to answer them. But so she already knew a
good bit.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I'm sorry. The fact that Mark just said I learned
that Santa Claus wasn't real, that a penis that goes
into a vagina was probably the best thing I've heard
this Monday.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
That was the last one on both of those of
all my friends.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Oh that's going to be the same, mean the Santa
Claus thing, that's going to be. How old were you?
I think I was actually probably in fifth grade.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I don't remember. I just kind of pretended.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Forever I was really late because one year, some friends
of my parents stopped by on Christmas Eve after I
had gone to bed, and they had just been at
a Christmas party, so they were a dressed as Santa
and Missus Claws in full costume. So the next morning
my parents showed me a photo they took in our
living room with Santa and Missus Clause.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
So as far as I was concerned, this was proof.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Nobody could tell me Otherwise I would never be convinced
because I had photographic evidence.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
That is the cutest thing ever.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
Though.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I love that. I mean, and I think Santa Claus
and you know, mister Clause, like Missus and mister Clause.
I think they had sex, you.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Know, although they did.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Did they have babies?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
No, there's not little there's just the hells.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But I don't think hilarious Doctor Vivianna, who's coming on?
She has these four uh different I think it's I
think it's four intimacy styles.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, good thing I gotta get. I just it's I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Do you just not enjoy it?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
It just makes me uncomfortable to talk about I don't
know why.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
It's like our rule no talking.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I'm just kidding. Yeah, it's fine, it's fine, all right, Well, Catherine,
I know you don't want to talk about it. I
won't talk about it anymore. I just I like sex.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Yeah, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I do. I think it's healthy. But that's but I'm
not saying it's not not healthy. Like if that's something
that you don't like to talk about We don't have
to talk about it. You know, I'll keep pushing you,
but I know you will.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I'll get there and you don't.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I mean again, like some people, I'm not comfortable with
what am I not comfortable with confrontation? Sure, so I'm
not comfortable with that. I don't like talking about confrontation.
I usually just cry or or delete my number. That's
moving to a different country. Hate confrontation. So yeah, I mean,
(08:32):
we all are uncomfortable with different things. So I love
you and I appreciate you. Know, go have your meeting.
Pam's going to hop in for you. Thanks, but I'd
love to have you back for some emails at the
end of the show. Okay, because you have you are
good with everything else but sex.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Okay, thanks, we'll.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Be back butt sex.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
That's such a guy.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
So we have doctor Vivianna Coles coming on. She has
a new book out called The Four Intimacy Styles, which
I have. I don't know anything about that, do you, Pam?
I don't know anything. I would love to know because
when I hear like, I'm like, there's different styles, Like,
isn't intimacy just intimacy? Like you think right, right, I mean,
but now you know reading that, it's like, well, I mean,
(09:32):
just like everybody's different, I'm sure they're right. I love language. Yeah,
I feel like it's one of those things too where
when you know, you think about like love languages and
intimacy and all that, it's intimacy, isn't just sex. But
for a long time, like I thought that sex was intimacy.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
And if you weren't having sex like with your partner
or you know, then like something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, because it's like it has to be wrong, right,
Like clearly we're not intimate, and isn't being intimate having sex?
Like what ways do you like feel like what fills
your intimacy cup? I mean I'm kind of the same
way two girls just want to have sex.
Speaker 7 (10:14):
Well, I mean for me, it's like that's the like
the common bond, especially when you're married and you have
these kids and you're like running around and can you
can easily turn into just like co parenting and you know,
like partnerships and parenting instead of like really you know,
focusing like on your relationship. So I feel like, you know,
(10:38):
then that brings that relationship, that more intimate relationship right,
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
That was always like such a struggle because that is
my thing, Like that's in our I remember our couples
therapist is always like okay, like what other ways can
can you find intimacy? And I'm just like, but can't
it just be sex too? Like like I I enjoy it,
like I wanna I would like to have, but there's
I think it's you know, also like handholding and those things.
I mean, I think I've always been like fearful, like
(11:07):
you know when like the sex stops or isn't there
as like much as it was, is the relationship stopping?
Oh it's a good question. Well, doctor Vivianna is in
the waiting room, s let's bringer in and ask her.
That's a really good question. Okay, So we were just
talking about obviously intimacy and you have there's four different styles,
(11:30):
so we're dying to know what are those four different styles.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:34):
So in my book The Four Intimacy Styles, I go
into great detail about how important it is to not
just know what your own intimacy style is, but how
to round it out so you can have that lasting
physical connection with a partner, which is super important. So
they're bonding release, giving, and responsiveness, and all four of
(11:54):
them are valid, all four of them are necessary. And
I think that what a lot of people don't realize
is that they might think that bonding is the ultimate
way to experience intimacy and sexuality.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
But you mean as bonding sex? No bonding is because
I didn't hear sex and that, I'm like, a sex is, Like,
isn't that Like we're just saying like that's our number one?
I'm like, what, so which one? Which one is that?
Speaker 6 (12:19):
So I'm only talking about sexuality here. Emotional intimacy. There's
so much information about there out there about it, but
physical intimacy is what I'm all about in this book.
And so bonding is a type of intimacy style. So
you might feel that in order to feel physically connected
to somebody, you have to feel emotionally connected to them,
(12:42):
and you do that through experiencing sexuality with them, So
that creates that bonding. And then giving is when you're
that person who says, if you're okay, I'm okay, you're
experiencing pleasure because of something that I'm doing. Oh my gosh,
I feel so close to you, I feel so connected
to you. And then release is whenever somebody says, I
(13:04):
really just want to get off, Yeah, and in order
to really feel connected to you, I need to get off.
And then we have responsiveness and people who say, you
know what, I'm not really thinking about sex right now,
but now that we're kind of into it, I'm into
(13:25):
it and I feel close to you and maybe we
can do it again soon. But they're not the ones
experiencing that spontaneous desire that a lot of people think
should be happening. You know, it doesn't happen to everyone. Actually,
very few people experience spontaneous desire that makes them them
want to motivate. You know, their partners have sex. So
you need to have all four if you're going to
(13:46):
be with someone forever and be getting lucky.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Interesting because what happens if you don't have that because
you were just asking what was your question and you
basically said, like, if you don't have that.
Speaker 7 (13:59):
Yeah, it then like what happens to the relationship, Like
it's I feel like, you know, sometimes when the sex
stops and isn't as much as you know it was
maybe before, Like then yeah, like I would just get
scared because of what happens to the relationship, then.
Speaker 6 (14:14):
Well, a lot of people are experiencing it right now.
You feel like this dullness, this grayness that comes across
all of the good times. So you might be experiencing
that French to you know, that feeling of like you're
my content b and I love you for that. But
if you don't have the physical connection and you're not
experiencing consistent, satisfying physical intimacy and a relationship no matter
(14:38):
what it chooses to look like, you're going to end
up either together but really dissatisfied and possibly even looking elsewhere,
or you're going to end up feeling like physically you're
you're you know, things will start atrophy, You'll start to
experience depression. It can really be something that you know,
(14:59):
emotionally drags you down, physically drags you down, and then
of course a lot of people will just leave their partners.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, I mean I remember, oh, in my past relationship
like that's it was just one of those things where
I'm like I wanted it more than like my partner,
and it was very hard because it's like I didn't
feel like it was asking for a lot, but I'm like,
I'm happier when we do it makes it even if
I didn't get off, it was just that connection. Is
(15:26):
that that's like what I like need, That's all I needed.
But firstly, I.
Speaker 6 (15:31):
Think for a lot of people, they don't realize that
most people sign up for monogamy right, and so they're
signing up for this. You are the only person that
I can do this with. I can tell everybody I
love them, I can kiss my dog, my doctor will
see me naked, I'll you know, maybe on a girl's chip,
share a bed with someone. This is that one thing
that you're only expected to do with your partner, and
(15:54):
if it's not happening, there is going to be a
feeling of something missing. And like you said, it doesn't
always have to look one way. And that's why I
think it's so important to know your intimacy style and
to know how to round it out, which is I
truly believe the key to making sure that it's lasting,
because we all want, you know, when we get married
or we decide to partner up with someone for a
(16:15):
really long time, we are truly thinking we're going to
have this intimate connection both emotionally and physically forever, but
we don't know how to do that, and I've been
seeing client since two thousand and three. I finally was like,
you know, I got to get this book out and
just tell people this is what it takes to be
physically connected forever, because nobody wants to get divorced. Nobody
(16:35):
wants to break up. Nobody wants to have that investment
and then have this physical connection, you know, dissipate or
just not be satisfying, and then that's the reason why
they end up divorcing. The other thing is that I
think in America we judge people for wanting to have
sex be a really prominent part of our relationships. It's
(16:55):
almost like, well, that's that's not a good enough reason
to be the satisfied. Is that y'all are having sex. No,
it's a really good reason. It's a valid reason, and
it's not you know a lot of people say infidelity, abuse,
not caring for children, all of those things are good
reasons to leave someone. Well, so is not having this
sexually fulfilling life.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
What happens or what do you say to the people that,
like a therapist will say, let's take sex off the table.
Speaker 6 (17:24):
I think it's important to take sex off the table.
But that's not physical intimacy. If we're talking about sexual
intercourse or orgasm or very specifically, you need to ask
your therapist what do you mean by that and what's
the point If sexuality is your way of coming back
together and ignoring what you just went through and sweeping
(17:45):
it under the rug and that's your go to pattern, yes,
you need to take a break so that you can
really focus on what's happening between you emotionally. But for
a lot of people, they do use sex as kind
of like a band aid, and that's where therapists will say, Okay,
we need to not cloud your judgment. We need to
take a break from this. This is a bad cycle.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And if you're getting like kind of in a rut,
is knowing your because you said like with knowing your
intimacy styles, that's where you're going to have long lasting,
like great sex, but to stay fresh? Is that also
like good to know your intimacy styles or like what
happens if you're like, all right, we know our styles,
but like it's just I've been with this person for
(18:27):
this long and I'm kind of like, how do you
even have it? Because sometimes it might be awkward to
be like can we do, like like how to have
the confidence to say something to like freshen it up right.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
So, if you're trying to round out your intimacy style,
which then would mean that you're trying to adopt twenty
five percent of each of the four styles into almost
every sexual interaction, it takes some work. And I'm going
to give you lots of examples of that in the
book of what you can do to be more getting,
what you can do to experience more release, what you
can do to be more responsive, what you can do
(19:00):
to experience more bonding. You're gonna have to put those
into effect. And now I have a quiz that will
help you to determine what percentage of each you're at currently,
so that you can know which one you need to adjust.
And again it's great for engineers, but it's also great
for people who are like, I don't know what I'm doing.
I just know that sometimes we're feeling offfed well. The
(19:23):
book definitely gives you lots of examples, but for instance,
with somebody who's not used to being responsive. I've gotten
a lot of people who tag me on their quiz
results and they're like zero percent responsive, and they think
that that's good, well know, because what that ends up
looking like in real life is that their partner is putting.
(19:43):
They're not able to allow their partner to take the
lead at all.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
So they're partners.
Speaker 6 (19:49):
Taking the lead, but they're feeling like it's not enough.
So for instance, they they're the ones that are always initiating.
The person who's zero percent responsive is always initiating. So
their partner's like, okay, you're not giving me a chance.
They might take a lead emotionally, but physically they're not
giving the chance to step up. And so that's when
people say you never initiate. I always do, so it's
(20:11):
important to take turns.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
But what if you know, I mean, for so many
years they don't step up.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
And that's I mean.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
In my office, I'm always dealing with people who don't
know how to initiate. They either feel like they try
for so many years, so now it's your turn, you
take the the time. That's not the way a long
lasting sexual relationship will work. The other thing is some
people just feel super awkward, like they do like a
team again and be like, oh, I'm going to put
myself out there and you're going to reject me. The
(20:43):
other time is they are awkward and they sometimes like
use a different voice, or you know, they like they
walk around being kind of funny. Silliness is fun, right.
Sex is play for adults. So I get that. But
if every time you're going into this you feel like
this rush of oh my gosh, I feel like I'm
going into myself. Do you mean to have a conversation
(21:05):
with your partner and just ask them what's the sexiest
way that I can initiate verbally nonverbally? Do I light
a candle on my set of the night standing? You
light yours when you're ready. I mean, there's so many
different ways to get it done. You just have to
make sure that it's happening.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
What do you do when the other person doesn't like
that they're very selfish and it's kind of like, wait,
what we're done? Like like want to try to like
you know, it's and yeah, So what would you say
to the women that are kind of in that situation
(21:41):
where it's just like and they don't even seem to
really care or try or to like attempt to like
get the person off.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yeah, this is.
Speaker 6 (21:51):
Why it's so important to have this conversation and share
the for intimacy styles with a partner, because you can
have that conversation without it being accusatory. Oh, we're supposed
to both be experiencing release. Oh we're supposed to both
be being giving, instead of it being you're all released
and you leave me high and dry. Sometimes sometimes, yeah,
(22:19):
I think it's so important that you have that conversation.
You say, hey, I know that maybe after you get off,
you're exhausted, or you're in like your own world, you
don't even realize what's going on. But maybe I need
to seek my pleasure before you experience your climax, because
otherwise it's not happening, or you know, sometimes it's all
(22:42):
about what it is that you're doing, the positions that
you're experiencing. But speak up. So many women do not
speak up because they don't think it's lately. I wrote
about that in the book too. They don't think it's ladylike.
They don't think, you know, they're supposed to be, you know,
all after the pleasure. But if their partners think that
they're doing okay, they're going to do the minimum and
(23:02):
we're going to be less resentful.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, no, it's so true. I mean, for I feel
like in my like I've just found my voice, I
think with like sex, which is so interesting because it
was probably towards the very end of my relationship where
I'm like, hey, like I'm in this too, Like can
I can I have a little something afterwards? I mean,
I think the voice also comes with like growing an
(23:24):
age and yeah, that's where they say, like women in
like their late thirties, forties or you know, know what
they want and they are going to speak up. Yeah,
and it's true. Are you do you feel like you're there?
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (23:37):
I mean because it's like, then what are what are?
What is the other option? You're going to live another
forty years not being pleasured.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Right or being like I guess I'll just grab my
vibrator from the side table. It's like it's either passive aggressive,
you're resentful, or you go somewhere else or you look
somewhere else.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
So yeah, yeah, you're gonna end up losing interest, which
is the last thing that your partner really wants, because
you'll end up losing interest in sex, and then guess what,
You'll lose interest in them.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
And then someone else will probably look shiny somewhere else.
You'll be like, oh well, I can. I'm sure they'd
have sex with me.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
They look like they have a rounded out intimacy soyle.
But I do think it all goes back to even
if you haven't found your voice, Let's say you're in
your twenties, let's say you're inexperienced. Let's say you're in
your forties and inexperience, whatever it is. I do think
it's important to say I have something that I want
to be able to talk to you about, like our
(24:36):
intimacy style. And again, the book is such a great
catalyst for these conversations because you're saying, this is what
this expert is saying, what do you think? How are
we measuring up? You don't have to accuse, you don't
have to criticize, You just bring up the conversation. You know,
I use the five Old languages all the time in
my practice. It is such a great way to just
(24:58):
get that conversation started. Emotional intimacy that otherwise couples may
not want to talk about because it may come up
as a criticism. It's the same thing with the four
intimacy styles, talking about how rounded out you are or
how you need to kind of tweak things to be
rounded out, there's no criticism.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, I am so excited to read the four Intimacy
Styles and everyone that's listening go get your book. And
where else can our listeners find you?
Speaker 6 (25:23):
Yeah, everything on line is doctor Diviana dot com. Just
spell it out, Doctor Vivianna dot com on for Intimacy
Styles dot com is where you can find the three
order for the book. I'm really excited to talk about
sex in a way that people can all people can
feel like it's it's something that they can talk about
(25:44):
in a way that isn't taboo. It's you know, it's
really appropriate for what we're all trying to do, which
is just be in love and be in love forever
in connection.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I love it. Thank you so much for coming on
the show. We'll be back with more sex talk. Bye girl,
Thank you so much. That was awesome. Appreciate you. Okay, Okay, Mark,
(26:17):
let's get our mind out of the bedroom, although it's
really fun to be there. But we have any emails.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
Yeah, and these might take you back into the bedroom.
It goes Caitlin and some of.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
These are a little heavy, but Caitlin asks aside from well, okay,
so it's time to get personal Chatta. Aside from Mike's
obvious infidelity, were there other issues in the relationship.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Maybe one's not as big and glaring.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Is a problem that you looked past for a long
time for the sake of having your family unit and
having a partner, where they are red flags present in
addition to the sex addiction aspect.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
You know, I thought I was like helping other people
with these emails.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
This is just like, is this uncomfortable? Now You're I'm
consortable just saying.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
You know, there there is a thing called the pros
and cons list that you do when you are I
think in high school or middle school, maybe now these days,
or maybe that's just aging me because maybe kids don't
do pros and cons anymore.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I think they did.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Did you ever do a pros and cons list? But
then you broke up with someone, You're like, here's the
pros for sure?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Oh? I think I don't think that's something that goes
away with generations.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Oh you don't think so?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
No, I don't think so. Okay, I mean they're probably
doing it in the notes app on their photo or something.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
But people shall make that list, Like you know, I
still like pull out the paper, still like here's my notebook.
If I was just talking to my buddy Justin Sylvester
about this on his podcast, and I think at the
end of the day, and again, this is something Catherine,
(27:58):
when I was having my my mental breakdown on Laurel
Canyon a few weeks ago in la you put the
cheating and infidelity aside, there's a list of other things
that are still very that are not acceptable as a husband,
like lying and some the characteristics. I'll say, there's characteristics
(28:27):
that were very hard to overlook that just wasn't getting better.
And I think again cheating aside, it's very hard when
you look at the characteristics of Okay, this is you know,
this person is has a history of lying, has a
you know, so yes, there there were that was what really,
(28:51):
at the end of the day helps me sleep at
night knowing that because of these some of these certain
characteristics and my characteristics that we just don't gel well
together in the end of the day. Yes, how's that answer?
Speaker 5 (29:13):
Very dipresab I thought it was great. Do you fear
that you are drawn to people who have these characteristics?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
So my issue is I am drawn to people that
will never fully love me because it's something that I
I always want, and for some reason, I go to
the people that I know deep down can never love
me the way that I want to be loved. And
(29:42):
so my battle is I want to show and prove
that I'm lovable and worthy enough and try to win
that person. That's my issue, and that's something you're working on, Yes,
very hard with a therapist. Yeah, with you know who
you guys talked to last week, Amy or a few
(30:03):
weeks ago, Ama, Alexander. Yeah, that's that's definitely because I
look back. I I have this journal from back from
two thousand and two, and I look back and I'm like,
why did I stay in that abusive relationship? Why did
I stay in this situation when this person was cheating?
Why did I? And it's like, if I loved myself enough,
(30:24):
I would have never stayed after Mike che had done
me a month into our relationship, ever, never, because I
would have known my worth. I would have known that
I was good. I did not deserve that, that I
was good enough that I didn't need his his actions
to confirm that I'm enough. And that's where I want
(30:45):
to be in my next relationship, where I know my
worth so much that I will not settle for a
second for what I know. And now again, nobody's perfect.
I'm not perfect. Still a lot of stuff I'm gonna
have to work on in the next relationship. But again
it comes down to the characteristics of someone and how
(31:06):
they treat you, and not staying with someone that doesn't
fill your.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Cup all right, as Devon Franklin says, filled cups, filled
cups exactly.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
This is from Morgan and it's even heavier.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Okay, great.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
My question, unfortunately revolves around a painful part of your past,
so apologies, miscarriage and trying to conceive. My husband and
I miscarried in January of twenty twenty decided to try
again right away.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Since then, we've been unable to conceive. When we've found
out that.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I have endometriosis, we're about to go into our fifth
IUI attempt, and I have decided that IVF is not
an option for us. My question, I guess, is when
do you give up and accept the fact that it
just might not happen. I've been struggling with this, but
the ups and downs of getting excited and hopeful and
then crushed when the next period comes is just taking
a huge toll on me. I better off getting away
(32:01):
from all of that heartache and moving on and just
being happy with my life and wonderful husband.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
Or should we keep trying for children.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
I mean, it clearly sounds it's something. First of all,
sorry you have to go through all that if it's
obviously your love and your desire to be a mom
is very present because you're taking those steps. And I
know you said that IVF isn't for you, I would
just I don't know anything honestly about endemetriosis, but I
(32:30):
would just say, even though you say IVF isn't for you,
maybe look into it just a little bit more. I
don't know if again I don't know, like if you
can't do endemetriosis with IVF, I'm not really sure. But
iuis are not as effective as IVF, and again I
know how expensive it can be and all those things.
(32:51):
But I think when your love and your desire to
have that family for me personally, I would want to
do everything I poss simply could to say, okay, I've
now done everything I could, which is as aggressive as
IVF is as aggressive as okay, and demetriosis, how can
(33:11):
we as you know, is there a way that we
could maybe save money for surrogacy or adoption. That to
me is when and if all those things those boxes were,
then you know, okay, we tried it, we tried it,
we can't we physically can't afford it, or we you know,
check check, check check. That is then when it says okay,
God like, maybe this wasn't the plan, and that is
(33:33):
when I could walk away. But I would for me personally,
I would have to check off all those boxes.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
I would too, and I never had to go through that, thankfully.
But did you buy.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
UI or I went straight to IVF because I heard
that it was more right.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
That's what Yeah, that's what I've heard. But I would
do the same.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
I would try everything, all boxes until there was you know,
I mean, you can't leave yourself no money, but you know,
I would try everything to be a.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Mom, Heather says, Hi Janna Mark and Easton ah Well,
listening to the podcast today, I had a thought about
something that hasn't really been touched on.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
My question is mostly for the boys.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, out of the news of Jane's divorce hit you,
did you suspect it would one day come to this
or were you completely blown away.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I love getting Mark and Easton and on this. This
is great. I love how Easton just like popped into
It's like I'm here. But this is a great question though,
because you know, we were a family, all of us together,
So I am, yeah, I'm curious to know that too.
Thanks for the question.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I I'll go first only because I was widely quoted
in a number of publications about this.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yes, you were. We never talked about that, but yes.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
It was weird. It was so.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Weird because I feel like you've been quoted before, haven't
you at Seacrest.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I mean maybe at some point, but it was still
it still kind of came out of nowhere, and I
didn't see it coming. I was like, hey, that's my name.
It's very It's always odd to see your name in
US weekly, and when you're me, you know, when you're you, you're.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Probably used to it.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
But anyway, I was totally blown away, and I acknowledged
in the article that maybe that makes me stupid, but
I said, on this very show, I said to you two,
I said, I can't guarantee that you're going to be
together forever, but I am sure.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
I'm convinced that Mike will not stray again.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I had the wolf pulled over my eyes, just like
everybody else did, because I was convinced that he had
done the work and was in a really good place.
So when I heard that things had gone super sold
for you guys and this may be the end, I'm
so stupid. I thought something else has happened, something else.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
Has gone wrong. It can't be that.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
It's anything but that, And of course that's the obvious thing,
and of course that's what it was. So yes, I
was absolutely shocked by that.
Speaker 8 (35:46):
Yes, I mean I feel the same way. I really.
Speaker 9 (35:51):
I mean, with all due respect, I have seen Jena,
I've seen you and Mike fight more than I think
anyone else in my life.
Speaker 8 (36:01):
I've been there, like intimately for a lot of it.
Speaker 9 (36:03):
But I really, I really, I was convinced that he
had beaten that part of his challenges.
Speaker 8 (36:11):
I really thought that if you guys.
Speaker 9 (36:13):
Were going to split out, what was going to be
for uh, I don't know, I mean, he was I know,
he spent a lot of money on those app games,
Like I thought it was gonna be something like that.
Speaker 8 (36:22):
I really didn't think, I don't know, I was I.
Speaker 9 (36:25):
Was totally blindsided by that, and it it really I
don't know, I just I felt like as a child
of divorce, like I I, it brought back a lot
of similar feelings because I was like so conflicted about
this person that I'd become close to and that I
thought I knew, and then this, you know, I I
was discovering things I didn't know and and severity I
(36:48):
wasn't really aware of. And uh, I don't know, it's
a it's a really it's a really weird feeling to have,
but I was.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
I was definitely blindsided by.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
That, which makes me feel a little less crazy because honestly,
like when I did see the thing mark when you
quoted that, I was just like, oh, he's just he's
lying about that, Like of course he saw it. Like
you know, we fought all the time, and you know,
you know I was snippy at times or I was
this or you know, and but it makes me feel like, okay,
(37:20):
like he was good, Like he had us all kind
of fooled. And so that was where I'm like, because
I it just makes me feel like I'm not as
crazy as I thought I was.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I feel like the snippiness and such was always justified
from the previous behavior, Like, I know, that's how difficult
that is to get over and regain the trust. So
I totally understood that. I just felt like, so I
never felt like that was inappropriate. I just felt like,
you tw were moving in a really good direction. And
I also think, and I don't know Mike well enough,
and it would be inappropriate for me to say this
about him, So I just speak generally, when a person
(37:56):
lies so deeply it became comes like it becomes real
to them. It seems like it becomes and then then
they're really good at it because when it becomes their
own reality, it's easy to sell it to friends, coworkers, family, whoever,
because they're just like, it's like they're not playing a
role anymore. They've become that fake PERSONA.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
It's scary.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
And that's a my therapist I say, she's like, that's
a that's a very scary thing when you can lie
that deep and that and convince that many people. And yeah,
I think, and that's that's the hardest part, because I mean,
like I was, yeah, I mean the book, I mean,
all of it is just it was like the biggest
(38:40):
kind of blindsided betrayal lie and it's it's still hard
to sit with. But I mean, Catherine, I think, has
a very opposite opinion.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Well, I will say I think everybody. I think everybody
thought y'all were really good. Yeah, and me included, I
did think y'all were really good, minus a few little.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Things, even the last fifteen months.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Yeah, I thought y'all were really good.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Like there's a few things that came up.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
With Well, there were definitely a few things that were
on the phone.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
What was like someone downloaded or what that.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
Yes, there were several things, and then just like little
things that we saw in the past, his behavior would
kind of allude to things going on. So I think
I think everybody thought you were good. I thought y'all
were really good. I think, you know, putting out the book,
about to work on another book. I mean, I wanted
to think that everything was good. But I just had
(39:45):
a very hard time believing him, just to be completely honest,
you know. I mean, my mom was a big liar,
you know, and so I recognized liars, and I just
always had hard time believing him. I Mean, I loved him,
you know, and I wanted to believe him, and I
wanted to believe that y'all could really work through this
and make it work.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
But ultimately saw so ultimately I was.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Wondering when the other shit would drop for sure, sadly,
I mean, I hate to say that, but that's the truth.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Did you guys pull the book or did the book
get a boost in sales out of curiosity or did
it just kind of tank?
Speaker 5 (40:23):
Like I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I have no idea, honestly, I haven't even asked. But we,
like two weeks before finding out everything, we had gotten
another book deal about trust. Wow, the book was going
to be about trust.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
I mean we'd had a call about it like a
week if not less about like like call about trust.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Can I imagine? Like, oh my god, Like I mean,
first of all, how could we even be on that call? Like,
but I mean, what a thank God? Because I already
feel so Yeah, but again the first book, I'm my
words were very true and my experiences were true and yeah,
(41:04):
but yeah, total, that's it's tough. It's very and it's
very hard now to not be just so angry about
just all of it. But angry is not gonna it's
just not good for anybody.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
No, But it's understandable.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah, just yeah, just be honest
everybody out there, can you just tell the truth and
just yeah, that's all blot all, I got all I got.
But yeah, yeah, I mean I can't even imagine, like people, Hey,
(41:47):
the end of the day, I know what I get
to tell my kids when we have a very grown
up conversation, and I'll be proud of what I what
I get to tell them.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
That's gonna be interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Because my parents split up when I was like ten
and they got back together again after like six months.
I don't have the ability to google why that all
went down and how it went like, that's all going
to be out there, and that's that's interesting. That's just
a whole new level of something like this. But like
you say, you know, the side of your streets clean
(42:20):
if that's the expression.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, And I wish that they didn't have to, you know,
And a lot of people think that I was the
reason why it was out there, and I'm like, let
us remind everyone. He came on the podcast to talk
about it. I didn't force him. He was the one
that I was like, oh, wow, we're going to talk
about this, like we even have a recording of that,
going like you want to talk about this? So that
(42:44):
was not my decision. I mean, like, again, it came
out in US Weekly, that was already out there. Did
I want to talk about it? Sure, I would have
loved to, But I was never forcing him telling him
to talk about it. So yeah, because he came on
as a guest, and I was like, all right, I
guess he's good to talk about it. Okay, we're going there.
And from there, I mean, you know, that's when we
(43:04):
continue to speak on it. And looking back, I think
that was the you know, that was he had pressure
around that and him, you know, dealing with that was
was hard. Always being the bad guy, And what I
say to that is just don't keep messing.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Up like people made you out to be a bad guy.
The bad guy a lot of it, which was very
hard to sit and watch. If I'm you know, people's
comments coming after you a lot. He wasn't always the
bad guy. I mean, I understand that point of view, and.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
It's mostly watch this or do that too, controlling blah
blah blah.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
They were coming after you too, So I'm just saying
it wasn't just him, and I didn't cheat.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
That's so interesting though, that he always complained about being
the bad guy, and he never stopped doing the things
that made him.
Speaker 5 (43:51):
A bad guys.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Like, it's like, people keep calling me a criminal as
you're walking out of the bank with bags of money
in each hand.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Isn't that the like what's the saying?
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Like if you do something over and over, it's like
insanity or something like that.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Just you stop, just stop.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, but you know, hopefully he's healthy now for the
kid's sake. So AnyWho, let's talk about something else. Back
to Oh good, see now I got captain. Back to
that's great. I'd like to go have some right now.
(44:30):
Oh my goodness, gracious, Well, guys, I think that's a show.
I think I'm talked out. We're at the lake right now,
so I want to get back out there.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I love you, guys,
Host
Jana Kramer
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