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July 5, 2021 46 mins

Jana lets us in on what helped her make the difficult decision to end her marriage, and she shares a shocking realization about something all her romantic partners have had in common. 

Marriage and family therapist Dr. Vivianna Coles helps Jana understand the different types of intimacy and gives her some advice on how to trust again. 

And when is the right age to talk about to your kids about sex?? Jana learns how to keep that conversation from getting too awkward.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. So, Katherine,
you're gonna kill me, No, like kill me, but it's
so scared. So this episode is about sex, of course

it is. I'm so mad at you. Well, have fun
hosting by yourself. I'm just kidding. Well, we have um
Dr Vivienna coming on. She's actually a sex expert. And
you know, when we were discussing you coming on the podcast,
you like, I can come today and I was like great.

I was like I would love for you too, because
you know, sex just isn't your favorite topic in the world. Um,
not in front of like many people listen to this,
it's in front of Okay, Okay, it's not my favorite topic. Right,
you're right, You're right, um and so, but it just

so happened. You're like, but I have to be out
for from this time to this time, and I'm like, oh,
I was like, it's like you somewhat new that, like
you like that you had to be unavailable from like
the time that she was able to be on because
that's how much she loathed talking about sex. Thank god.

Where do you think that comes from? Is it like
a like a taboo thing from like probably from childhood. Yeah,
we didn't talk about it a lot, very like southern
Baptist Christian family, Like it just wasn't We didn't talk
about a whole lot, but definitely not sex. So what
do you how do you think you'll do that with
the kids then, so that way it's not like the
you know that kind of we've actually talked about it

a lot you have. Yeah, yeah, I've already had like
a full conversation with my nine year old now the time. Yeah, hey,
they say eight is too late. No, yeah, I know what.
I didn't even know what sex was until like, well,
yeah the freshman year school. Well I definitely knew before that,

but I heard from everybody else, not you know, my family.
How old were you when you honestly found out about
sex or heard about sex? I think I was like eleven,
probably fourth or fifth grade. Talk is when they teach
you about sperm and stuff, right, isn't that word? Like
I just don't think my kids. There was a video
we had to watch where it's like you saw sperm

like little like floaty thing, and then they talked about
like our periods, and then I just remember being like
this sucks, but that was fifth grade and then never
spoke about it again. So what did your parents talk
to you about it? Not once? So you just went
the opposite way. He loved to talk about it and
to talk about it. It's just you know. But yeah,

so I mean they honestly say eight is too late.
Well the problem is is it when people start talking
So like, okay, my twelve year old as a boy,
my husband had that conversation. But I knew one of
his best friends when he was probably about nine, Um
had already had that conversation with his parents, had been
asking questions about other stuff. Um, it's like what like kissing,

touching penis? Is the giants? Like rape? Like he had
asked a question about ripe, I know, at nine, and
so I was very concerned that he was going to
then have the conversation with Kayden. So I had Nick
had that conversation. I don't know a whole lot about
how that conversation went. Um, you didn't ask Nick. You know,

he had a couple of bourbons before, you know, So
they've had that conversation. I left, and Kayden and I
have talked about it also, Um, like what do you
talk about? That's the thing like, like, what's like a
because I'm like so I don't even know. I'm like,
well the vagina, Well here's the thing. It depends on
the kid. Like Kayden doesn't ask questions. He just sat there,

So I think it was extremely uncomfortable for Nick, and
he talks about stuff all the time. Any though, my
nine year old she asked questions, so it's actually easy,
like what kind of question. Well, we started sharing about periods.
We started with periods, and then we watched about tampons
and how they went. And then you didn't move on
and it's like, okay, have you heard of sex? Well
I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is.

It's like, okay, well that's where ennis and then you
just but she kept asking questions so it just led
to it. So we had a full on conversation. Did
she ask like why do people do that? Because like
that would be a question I would ask like why
do you why does a penis and a vagina get together?
I mean I think she did. I mean, what do
you see? Like it just feels good? I don't remember,

and I had it like I was so proud of myself.
But having said that, I still don't enjoy it having
it and talking about it. Thanks, you know, Mark, how
old are your girls again? They are and twelve? Okay,
so you've definitely obviously have the conversation then yeah, and

it's nice having daughters is then my wife can kind
of handle all that stuff. But the rule of thumbs
kind of if they're asking questions about it, it's time
to talk about it, and you can kind of gauge
by their questions how deep you should go into it.
What do you think about the eight is too late?
It depends on what they're asking. If they're not asking
anything that, I'm not sure I would just kind of

confront them with it before eight years old. I think
I would kind of let them guide me. Here's my
passive style. I'm a little passive. Yeah, well, yes, I
can be the rebuttal to that is like my twelve
year old son would not probably ever ask a question.
He would just let it go. So I don't know

that's hard. Well, yeah, I think what like I never
got the talk from my parents, and they might dispute that,
but I don't remember ever getting it. I remember learning
it in fifth grade in school and going to my
friends like, did you guys, hear that the penis goes
into did you know that? Yeah, yeah, we all knew that,
like oh man to say video. And that's the problem though,

when you asked all your friends, they already all knew.
And that was fifth grade. Yeah, my daughter's going into
fourth in might. But she was the one with a
million questions. I mean, it just led to a question
to a question to it. So it honestly was easy
because it just I just had to answer them. But
so she already knew a good bit. I'm sorry. The
fact that Mark just said I learned that Santa Claus

wasn't real that a penis goes into a vagina was
probably the best thing I've heard this Monday. I was
the last one on both of those, of all of
my friends. That's gonna be the the Santa Claus thing
that's gonna be. How old were you I think I
was actually probably in fifth grade. I don't remember. I
just kind of pretended forever I was really late because um,

one year, some friends of my parents stopped by on
Christmas Eve after I had gone to bed, and they
had just been in a Christmas party, so they were
addressed as Santa and Mrs Claus in full costume. So
the next morning, my parents showed me a photo they
took in our living room with Santa and Mrs Clause. So,
as far as I was concerned, this was proof. Nobody

could tell me Otherwise I would never be convinced because
I had photographic evidence. That is the cutest thing ever though.
I love that. I mean, and I think Santa Claus
and you know Mr Clause, like Mrs and Mr Clause,
I think they had sex, you know, although they did
did they have babies? No, there's not a little there's

just these But I don't think that wearious. Um Mark,
Do you and your wife talk about sex or is
it just kind of like do you do you feel
comfortable talking about sex from guys with each other, just
from a guy's perspective, like what you like, what you
don't like, you know, what you want to try? Yes,
I mean, the moods got to be it's gonna be

the right situation, and those situations are hard to find
these days because the kids are always around, their friends
are always around. It's rare that we get that personal time.
But yes, I absolutely were comfortable with that, and we
have the opportunity because Dr Vivianna, who's coming on, she
has these for uh different I think it's I think
it's for intimacy styles. Good thing. I just it's I

don't know. Do you just not enjoy it? It just
makes me uncomfortable to talk about I don't know why.
It's like our role no talking, but I'm just kidding. Yeah,
it's fine, that's fine, all right, Well Catherine, I know
you don't want to talk about it. I won't talk
about it anymore. I just I like sex. Yeah, let's

talk about it. I do. I think it's healthy, but
not saying it's not. But I'm not saying it's not
not healthy. Like if that's something that you don't like
to talk about, we don't want to talk about it.
I'll keep pushing you, but I'll get there and you
don't have me again. Like some people, I'm not comfortable
with what am I not comfortable with? Uh? Confrontation? Sure,

so I'm not comfortable with that. I don't like talking
about confrontation. I usually just cry or or delete my
number to a different country. Hate confrontation. So yeah, I
mean we all are uncomfortable with different things. Um, So
I love you and I appreciate you know, go have
your meeting. Pam's gonna hop in for you. Um. Thanks,

but I'd love to have you back for some emails
at the end of the show, because you have you
are good with everything else but sex. Thanks, we'll be back.
But but sex, that's such a guy thing. So we

have Dr Vivienna Coles coming on. She has a new
book out called The Four Intimacy Styles, which I have.
I don't know anything about that, do you, Pam? I
don't know anything. I would love to know because when
I hear like, I'm like, there's different styles, Like, isn't
intimacy just intimacy? Like you think? Right? Right? I mean,
but now you know reading that, it's like, well, I mean,

just like everybody's different. I'm sure they're right. Language. I
feel like it's one of those things too, where when
you know you you think about like love, languages and
intimacy and all that, it's intimacy, isn't just sex. But
for a long time, like I thought that sex was
intimacy and if you weren't having sex like with your

partner or you know, then like something was wrong. Yeah,
because it's like it has to be wrong, right, like
clearly we're not intimate, and isn't being intimate having sex?
Like what ways do you like feel like what fills
your intimacy cup? I mean I'm kind of the same
way two girls just want to have sex? Well, I

mean for me, it's like that's the like the common bond,
especially when you're married, um and you have these kids
and you're like running around and can you can easily
turn into just like co parenting and you know, like
partnerships and parenting instead of like really you know, focusing
like on your relationships. So I feel like, you know

then that brings that relationship that more intimate relationship, right,
you know that was always like such a struggle because
that is my thing. Like that's and remember a couples
therapist is always like okay, like what other ways can
can you find intimacy? And I'm just like, well, but
can it just be sex to like like I I
enjoy it like I want to, I would like to

have sex, but there's I think it's you know also
like handholding and those things. I mean I think I've
always been like fearful, like you know when like the
sex stops or isn't there as like much as it was.
Is the relationship stopping? Oh it's a good question, and
well Dr Vivianna is in the waiting room, so let's

bring her in and ask her. That's a really good question. Okay,
So we were just talking about obviously intimacy and you
have there's four different styles, so we're we're dying to
know what are those four different styles? Yeah. So in
my book, the four intimacy stuff like go into great
eachil about how important it is to not just know
what your own intimacy style is, but how to round

it out so you can have that lasting physical connection
with a partner, which is super important. So they're bonding, release, giving,
and responsiveness, and all four of them are valid, All
four of them are necessary. And I think that what
a lot of people don't realize is that they might
think that bonding is the ultimate way to experience intimacy

and sexuality. But you mean is bonding sex? No bonding?
Because I didn't hear sex, and the I'm because sex
is like isn't that Like we're just saying like that's
number one. I'm like, what's the which one which is not?
So I'm only talking about sexuality here emotional intimacy. There's
so much information about there, you know out there about it,

but physical intimacy is what I'm all about in this book.
And so bonding is a type of intimacy style. So
you might feel that in order to feel physically connected
to somebody, you have to feel emotionally connected to them,
and you do that through experience and sexuality with them,
so that creates that bonding. And then giving is when

you're that person who says, if you're okay, I'm okay,
you're experiencing pleasure because it's something that I'm doing. Oh
my gosh, I feel so close to you, I feel
so connected to you. And then release is whenever somebody says,
I really just want to get off, and in order

to really feel connected to you, I need to get off.
And and we have responsiveness people who say, you know what,
I'm not really thinking about sex right now, but now
that we're kind of into it, I'm into it and
I feel close to you and maybe we can do
it again soon. But they're not the ones experiencing that
spontaneous desire that a lot of people think should be happening.

You know, it doesn't happen to everyone. Actually, very few
people experience spontaneous desire that makes them then want to motivate.
You know, their partners have sex. So you need to
have all four if you're going to be with someone
forever and be getting lucky. Interesting because it because what
happens if you don't have that? Because that you were
just asking, what was your question? You basically said, like,

if you don't have that, yeah, you know, then like
what happens to the relationship, Like it's I feel like,
you know, sometimes when the sex stopped and isn't as
much as you know it was maybe before, Like then yeah,
like I would just get scared because of what happens
to the relationship. Then, well a lot of people are
experiencing it right now. You feel like this dullness, this

greatness that comes across all of the good times. So
you might be experiencing that French to you know, that
feeling of like you're my concept that and I love
you for that. But if you don't have the physical
connection and you're not experiencing consistent, satisfying physical intimacy in
a relationship, no matter what it chooses to look like,

you're going to end up either together. But really dissatisfied
and possibly even looking elsewhere, or you're gonna end up
feeling like physically you're you're you know, things will start
to atrophy, You'll start to experience depression. Um. It can
really be something that you know emotionally drives it down,

physically drags you down. And then of course a lot
of people will just leave their partners. Yeah. I mean
I remember in my past relationship like that's it was
just one of those things where I'm like, I wanted
it more than like my my partner, and it was
very hard because it's I didn't feel like it was
asking for a lot, but I'm like, I'm happier when

we do. It makes me even if I didn't get off.
It was just that connection. Is that that's like what
I like, I need, That's all I needed. But you, personally,
I think for a lot of people, they don't realize
that most people sign up for monogay, right, and so
they're signing up for this. You are the only person
that I can do this with. I can tell everybody

I love them, I can kiss my dog, my doctor
will see me naked. I'll you know, maybe on a
girl's chip, share a bed with someone. This is that
one thing that you're only expected to do with your partner,
and if it's not happening, there is going to be
a feeling of something missing. And like you said, it
doesn't always have to look one way. And that's why
I think it's so important to know your intimacy style

and to know how to round it out, which is
I truly believe the key to making sure that it's lasting,
because we all want, you know, when we get married
or we decided to partner up with someone for a
really long time, we are tually thinking we're going to
have this intimate connection both emotionally and physically forever, but
we don't know how to do that. And I've been

seeing clients in two thousand three and I finally was like, yeah,
I gotta get this book out and just tell people
this is what it takes to be physically connected forever.
Because nobody wants to get divorced. Nobody wants to break up.
Nobody wants to have that investment and then have the
physical connection, you know, dissipate or just not be satisfying,
and then that's the reason why they end up divorcing.

The other thing is that I think in America we
judge people for wanting to have sex be a really
prominent part of our relationships. It's almost like, well, that's
that's not a good enough reason to be the satisfied.
Is that y'all aren't having sex. No, it's a really
good reason. It's a valid reason, and it's not you
know a lot of people say infidelity, abused, um, not

caring for children, all of those things are good reasons
to to leave someone. Well, so is not having the
sexually fulfilling life. What do what happens or what do
you say to the people that um, Like a therapist
will say, let's take sex off the table. I think
it's important to take sex off the table. Um, But

that's not physical intimacy. If we're talking about sexual intercourse
or orgasm or very specifically, you need to ask your
therapists what do you mean by that and what's the point.
If sexuality is your way of coming back together and
ignoring what you just went through and sweeping it under
the rug and that's your go to pattern, yes, you

need to take a break so that you can really
focus on what's happening between you emotionally. But for a
lot of people they do use sex as kind of
like a band aise, and that's where therapists will say, Okay,
we need to not cloud your judgment. We need to
take a break from this is a bad cycle. And
if you're getting like, um kind of in a rut,

is knowing your because you said like, with knowing your
intimacy styles, that's where you're going to have long lasting,
like great sex, but to stay fresh? Is that also
like good to know your intimacy styles? Or like what
happens if you're like, all right, we know our styles,
but like it's just I've been with this person for
this long and I'm kind of like, look, how do
you even have because sometimes it's it might be awkward

to be like can we do like how like how
to have the confidence to say something to like freshen
it up? Right. So, if you're trying to round out
your intimacy style, which then would mean that you're trying
to adopt each of the four styles into almost every
sexual interaction, it takes some work. And I'm going to
give you lots of examples of that in the book

of what you can do to be more getting, What
you can do to experience more release, what you can
do to be more responsive, what you can do to
experience more bonding, you're gonna have to put those into effect.
And now I have a quiz that will help you
to determine what percentage of each you're at currently, so
that you can know which one you need to adjust.
And again, it's great for engineers, but it's also great

for people who are like, I don't know what I'm doing.
I know that sometimes we're off well. The book definitely
gives you lots of examples, but for instance, you know,
with somebody who's not used to being responsive. I've gotten
a lot of people who tag me on their quiz
results and they're like zero percent responsive and they think
that that's good. Well, no, because what that ends up

looking like in real life is that their partner is putting.
They're not able to allow their partner to take the
lead at all. So there their partners taking the lead,
but they're feeling like it's not enough. So for instance,
they they are the ones that are always initiating. The
person who zero percent responsive is always initiating, So they're

partners like, okay, you're not giving me a chance. They
might take a lead emotionally but physically, they're not getting
the chance to step up. And so that's when people
say you never initiate. I always do, so it's important
to take turns. But what if you know, I mean,
for so many years they don't step up, and and
that's I mean in my office, I'm always dealing with

people who don't know how to initiate. They either feel
like they tried for so many years and now it's
your turn, you take the time. That's not the way
a long lasting sexual relationship will work. Um. The other
thing is some people just feel super awkward, but they
do like a team again and like I'm gonna put
myself out there and you're gonna reject me. The other

time is they are offered and they sometimes like use
a different voice or you know, they like they walk
around being kind of funny. Silliness is fun, right. Sex
is played for adult so I get that. But if
every time you're going into this you feel like this
rush of oh my gosh, I feel like I'm going
into myself. Do you mean to have a conversation with

your partner? Just ask them what's the sexiest way that
I can initiate verbally? Nonverbally, Do I light a candle
on my set of the nightstand and you light yours
when you're ready. I mean, there's so many different ways
to get it done. You just have to make sure
that it's happening. What do you do when the other
person doesn't like that they're very selfish and it's kind

of like, wait, what we're done? Like either not even
want to try to like you know, it's and yeah,
so what what what would you say to the women
that are kind of in that situation where it's just
like and they don't even seem to really care or
try or to attempt to like get off. Yeah, this

is why it's so important to have this conversation and
share the fore intimacy styles with a partner, because you
can have that conversation without it being accusatory. Oh, we're
supposed to both be experiencing release. Oh we're supposed to
both be being giving, instead of it being you're all
released and you leave me high and try sometimes sometimes, Yeah,

I think it's so important that you have that conversation
you say, hey, I know that maybe after you get off,
you're exhausted or you're in like your own world. You
don't even realize what's going on. But maybe I need
to seek my pleasure before you experience your climax, because
otherwise it's not happening, or you know, sometimes it's all

about what it is that you're doing, the positions that
you're experiencing. But speak up. So many women do not
speak up because they don't think it's lately like I
wrote about that in the book too. They don't think
it's lately like they don't think, you know, they're supposed
to be, you know, all after the pleasure. But if
their partners think that they're doing okay, just what they're
going to do the minimum, and we're gonna be less presentful. Yeah, no,

it's so true. I mean, for I feel like in
my like I've just found my voice. I think with
like sex, which is so interesting because it was probably
towards the very end of my relationship where I'm like, hey,
like I'm in this too, like can I can I
have a little something afterwards? And I think the voice
also comes with growing in age. And yeah, that's where

they say like women and like their late thirties, forties
or you don't know what they want and they're going
to speak up. Yeah, and it's true. Are you do
you feel like you're there? Yeah? I mean because it's like,
then what are what are? What is the other option?
You're going to live another forty years not being pleasured,

being like, I guess I'll just grab my vibrator from
the side table. Either passive aggressive, you're resentful, or you
go somewhere else, or you look somewhere else. So yeah, yeah,
you're gonna end up losing interest, which is the last
thing that your partner really wants, because you'll end up
losing interest in sex, and then guess what, You'll lose
interest in them, and then someone else will probably look

shiny somewhere else be like, oh well I can. I'm
sure they'd have sex with me. It looks like they
have a rounded intimacy. But but I do think it
all goes back to even if you haven't found your voice,
let's say you're in your twenties, let's say you're inexperience.
Let's say you're in your forties and inexperience whatever it is,
I do think it's important to say I have something

that I want to be able to talk to you about,
like our intimacy style. And again The book is such
a great catalyst for these conversations because you're saying, this
is what this expert is saying. What do you think?
How are we measuring up? You don't have to accuse,
you don't have to criticize. You just bring up the conversation,
you know, and I use the five old languages all

the time in my practice. It is such a great
way to just get that conversation started about emotional intimacy
that otherwise couples may not want to talk about because
it may come up as a criticism. The same thing
with the fore intimacy style is talking about how rounded
out you are or how you need to kind of
tweet things to be rounded up. There's no criticism. Well,
I am so excited to read the four Intimacy Styles

and everyone that's listening, um, go get your book. And
where else can our listeners find you? Yeah, everything on
Linus's Dr Dana dot com. Just spell it out. Dr
Toriviana dot com. Uh, Foreign Tendency Styles dot com is
where you can find the three orders for the book.
I'm really excited to talk about sex in a way

that people can all people can feel like. It's it's
something that they can talk about in a way that
isn't taboo. It's you know, it's really appropriate for what
we're all trying to do, which is just be in
love and be in love forever, in connection. I love it.
Thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll
be back with more sex talk by girl. Thank you
so much. That was awesome, So appreciate you. Okay, bye, Okay, Mark,

let's get our mind out of the bedroom, although it's
really fun to be there. But we have an emails. Yeah,
and these might take you back into the bedroom, Caitlin,
And some of these are a little heavy, but Caitlin
asks aside from well, okay, so it's time to get
personal channel. Aside from Mike's obvious infidelity, were there are

other issues in the relationship. Maybe one's not as big
and glaring. Is a problem that you looked past for
a long time for the sake of having your family
unit and having a partner where their red flags present
in addition to the sex addiction aspect. You know, I
thought I was like helping other people with these emails,
just like is this uncomfortable? Now you're uncomfortable just saying

you know, um, there there is a thing called the
pros and cons list that you do when you are
I think in high school, were middle school, maybe now
these days, um or maybe that's just aging me because
maybe kids don't do pros and cons anymore they do.

Did you ever do a pros and cons list when
you broke up with someone? You're like, here's the pros,
here's counts for sure? I think I don't think that's
something that goes away with generations. You don't think so, No,
I don't think so. Okay. I mean they're probably doing
it in the notes app on their photo or something.
But people shall make that list, like you know, I
still like pull out the paper like it's still like
here's my notebook. Um if. I was just talking to

my buddy Justin Sylvester about this on his podcast, and
I think at the end of the day, and again,
this is something Catherine, when I was having my mental
breakdown on Laurel Canyon a few weeks ago in l A, Um,
you put the cheating and infidelity aside, there's a list

of other things that are still very are not acceptable
as a husband, like lying and uh, some the characteristics.
I would say, there's characteristics that were very hard to
overlook that just wasn't getting better. Um, and I think

again cheating aside. It's very hard when you look at
the the characteristics of Okay, this is you know, this
person is, has a history of lying, has a you know. Um,
so yes, there there were That was what really at
the end of the day, Um helps me sleep at

night knowing that because of these some of these certain
characteristics and my characteristics that we just don't gel well
together in the end of the day. Yes, how's that answer?
Very deplas. I thought it was great. Do you fear
that you are drawn to people who have these characteristics?

So my issue is I am drawn to people that
will never fully love me because it's something that I
I always want and for some reason, I go to
the people that I know deep down can never love
me the way that I want to be loved. And

so my battle is I want to show and prove
that I'm lovable and worthy enough and try to win
that person. That's my issue, and that's something you're working on, Yes,
very hard, with a therapist. Yeah, with with you know
who you guys talk to you last week Amy or

a few weeks ago, Emai Alexander. Um, Yeah, that's that's
definitely because I look back. I mean, I have this
journal from back in from two thousand and two, and
I look back and I'm like, why did I stay
in that abusive relationship? Why did I stay in this
situation when this person was cheating? Why did I? And
It's like, if I loved myself enough, I would have

never stayed after Mike che had done me a month
into our relationship. Ever, never, because I would have known
my worth. I would have known that I was good.
I was I did not deserve that, that I was
good enough, that I didn't need his his actions to
confirm that I'm enough. And that's where I want to

be in my next relationship, where I know my worth
so much that, um, I will not settle for a
second for what I know. And now, again, nobody's perfect.
I'm not perfect. I still have a lot of stuff
I'm gonna have to work on in the next relationship.
But again, it comes down to the characteristics of someone

and how they treat you, and not staying with someone
that doesn't fill your cup all right. As Davont Franklin says,
old Cups Phil Cups exactly this is from Morgan and
it's even heavier. Okay, great. My question unfortunately revolves around

a painful part of your past, so apologies, miscarriage and
trying to conceive. My husband and I miscarry in January,
decided to try again right away. Since then, we've been
unable to conceive. We found out that I have endometriosis.
We're about to go into a fifth I U y
attempt and have decided that I v F is not
an option for us. My question, I guess, is when

do you give up and accept the fact that it
just might not happen. I've been struggling with this, but
the ups and downs of getting excited and hopeful and
then crushed when the next period comes is just taking
a huge toll on me. Am. I better off getting
away from all that heartache and moving on and just
being happy with my life and wonderful husband. Or should
we keep trying for children? I mean, it clearly sounds

that's something for First of all, sorry you have to
go through all that if it's obviously your love and
your desire to be a mom is very present because
you're taking those steps, and I know you said that
IVF isn't for you, I would just I don't know
anything honestly about endometriosis. UM, but I would just say,

even though you say IVF isn't for you, maybe look
into it just a little bit more. Um. I don't
know if again I don't know, like if you can't
do endometrios with IVF, I'm not really sure, but I
U wise are not as effective as IVF UM. And
again I know how expensive it can be and all
those things. But um, I think when your love and

your desire to have that family for me personally, I
would want to do everything I possibly could to say, Okay,
I've now done everything I could, which is as aggressive
as IVF is as aggressive as okay, ive m demetriosis.
How can we as you know, is there a way

that we could maybe save money for surrogacy or adoption?
That to me is when and if all those things
those boxes were then you know, okay, we tried it,
we tried it, we can't we physically can't afford it,
or we you know, check check, check check. That is
then when it says okay, God like maybe this wasn't
the plan, And that is when I could walk away.

But I would ask for me personally, I would have
to check off all those boxes. I would too, and
I never had to go through that, thankfully. But did
you why you y or? I went straight to Iva
because I heard that it was more right. That's what. Yeah,
that's kind I've heard. But I would do the same.
I would try everything, all boxes until there was you know,
I mean, you can't leave yourself no money, but you

know I would try everything to be a mom mark. Well,
it's hard for me to relate to this um. By
the way, just a side note, I think it's really
beautiful that people feel so close to you, Jenna that
they could ask such a personal question. I think that's
really a testament to the relationship you've built doing this
podcast with your listeners. But that's regardless, UM, I agree

with you. I think I think a plan though, I
think a plan is going to help. A plan would
help me. You know, you gotta talk about checking all
the box because I think we actually sat down and
wrote out the boxes and we're gonna do this and
kind of a flow chart of how this is going
to go. At least, I just think you feel a
little lost right now and a little and a little
guidance moving forward that you can create for yourself would
be helpful along the way, so that you realize we're

gonna this, we're gonna do this, We're gonna do this,
and at that point we have to have that conversation.
But it sounds like you're not at the point to
have that conversation. Yeah. Yeah, And I was just revisit
some of those things that were off the table, Heather says,
Hi Janna market Easton. Ah Well, listening to the podcast today,

I had a thought about something that hasn't really been
touched on. My question is mostly for the boys. How
did the news of Jane's divorce hit you? Did you
suspect it would one day come to this or were
you completely blown away? Oh? I love getting can Easton
and on this. This is great. I love how Easton
just like popped into It's like I'm here. This is
a great question though, because you know, we were a family,

all of us together, so I am yeah, I'm curious
to know that too. Thanks for the question. I um,
I'll go first only because I was widely quoted in
a number of publications about this. Yes you were. We
never talked about that, but yes, it's weird, so weird,
because but I feel like you've you've been quoted before,

haven't you at Seacrest. I mean, maybe at some point,
but it was still I still kind of came out
of nowhere and I didn't see it coming. I was like, hey,
that's my name. It's very It's always odd to see
your name in US Weekly. And when you're me, you know,
when you're you, you're probably used to it. But anyway,
I was totally blown away. And I acknowledged in the
article that maybe that makes me stupid, But I said,

on this very show, I said to you too, I said,
I can't guarantee that you're going to be together forever,
but I am sure. I'm convinced that Mike will not
Right again, I was as uh so I was. I
had the wolf pulled over my eyes, just like everybody
else did, because I was convinced that he had done

the work and was in a really good place. So
when I heard that things have gone super self for
you guys, and this maybe the end, I'm so stupid.
I thought something else has happened, something else has gone wrong.
It can't be that it's anything but that. And of
course that's the obvious thing, and of course that's what
it was. So yes, I was absolutely shocked by that. Yeah,

I mean I feel the same way. Um I really,
I mean, with all due respect, I have seen Jane,
I've seen you and Mike fight more than I think
anyone else in my life. I've been there like intimately
for a lot of it. But I really, I really, um,

I was convinced that he had beaten that part of
his challenges. I I really thought that if you guys
were going to split out, it was gonna be for
I don't know, I mean, he was, I know, we
spent a lot of many on those app games, Like
I thought it was gonna be something like that. I
really didn't think. I don't know, I was. I was
totally blindsided by that, and it um it it really,

I don't know. I just I felt like as a
child of divorce, like I I, it brought back a
lot of similar feelings because I was like so conflicted
about this person that I'd become close to and that
I thought I knew, and then this, you know, I
I was discovering things I didn't know and and severity
I wasn't really aware of and uh, I don't know.

It's a it's a really um it's a really weird
feeling to have. But I was I was definitely blindsided
by that, which makes me feel a little less crazy
because honestly, like when I did see the thing mark
when you quoted that, I was just like, oh, he's
just he's lying about that, Like of course he saw it.
Like you know, we fought all the time, and you know,

you know I was snippy at times or was this
or you know, and but it makes me feel like, okay,
like he was good, like he had us all kind
of fooled, and so that was where I'm like, because
I it just makes me feel like I'm not as
crazy as I thought I was. I feel like the

snippiness and such was always justified from the previous behavior,
Like I know, that's how difficult that is to get
over and regain the trust. So I totally understood that.
I just felt like so I never felt like that
was inappropriate. I just felt like you two were moving
in a really good direction. And they also think and
I don't know Mike well enough and it would be
inappropriate for me to say this about him, so I'll
just speak Generally, when a person lies so deeply, it

becomes like it becomes real to them. It seems like
it becomes and then and then they're really good at
it because when it becomes their own reality, it's easy
to sell it to friends, co workers, family, whoever, because
they're just like, it's like they're not playing a role anymore.
They've become that fake persona. It's scary. And that's in

my therapist I'd say, she's like, that's a that's a
very scary thing when you can lie that deep and
uh and convince that many people. And yeah, I think
and that's that's the hardest part because I mean, like
I was, Yeah, I mean the book, I mean all
of it is just it was like the biggest kind

of blindsided betrayal lie And it's it's still hard to
sit with um. But I mean, Katherine, I think, has
a very opposite opinion. Well, I will say I think everybody.
I think everybody thought y'all were really good. Yeah, and

me included. I did think y'all were really good, minus
a few little things. Even the last fiftew months. Yeah,
I thought you were good. Like those there's a few
things that came up with There were definitely a few
things were what we like someone downloaded with him. Yes,
there were several things. And then just like little things

that we saw in the past, his behavior would kind
of allude to things going on. So I think, um,
I think everybody thought you were good. I thought y'all
were really good. I think, you know, putting out the book,
about to work on another book. I mean, I wanted
to think that everything was good, but I just had

a very hard time believing him, just to be completely honest,
you know, I mean, my mom was a big liar,
you know, and so I recognized liars, and I just
always had a hard time believing him. I mean, I
loved him, you know, and I wanted to believe him,
and I wanted to believe that y'all could really work
through this and make it work. But ultimately saw so

ultimately I was wondering when the other she would drop
for sure, sadly, I mean, I hate to say that,
but that's the truth. Did you guys pull the book
or did the book get a boost in sales out
of curiosity or did it just kind of tank, Like
I'm just curious. I have no idea, Honestly, I haven't
even asked. But we like two weeks before finding out everything,

we had gotten another book deal about trust. The book
was maybe about trust. I mean we'd had a call
about it like a week, if not less about like
call about trust. Can't imagine, like, oh my god, Like
I mean, first of all, how could we even be
on that call? Like but I mean, what a thank God?

Because I already feel so um yeah, but again the
first book, I'm my words were very true and my
experiences were true and yeah, but yeah, total, that's it's tough.
It's very and it's very hard now to to not
be um. It is so angry about just all of it.

But angry is not gonna it's just not good for anybody. No,
but it's understandable. Yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah, just yeah,
just be honest everybody out there. Can we just tell
the truth and just yeah that's all bla all I

got I got. But yeah, yeah, I mean I can't
even imagine, like people, Hey, the end of the day,
I know what I get to tell my kids when
we have a very grown up conversation, and I'll be
proud of what I what I get to tell them.
That's gonna be interesting because my parents split up when

I was like ten and they got back together again
after like six months. I don't have the ability to
google why that all went down and how it went. Like,
that's all going to be out there, and that's that's interesting.
That's just a whole new level of something like this.
But like you say, you know, decide of your streets
clean if that's the expression. Yeah, And and I I

wish that they didn't have to, you know, And a
lot of people think that I was the reason why
it was out there, and I'm like, let us remind everyone.
He came on the podcast to talk about it. I
didn't force him. He was the one that I was like,
oh wow, we're gonna talk about this, Like we even
have a recording of that, going like you want to
talk about this? So that was not my decision. I mean, like, again,

it came out in US weekly that that was already
out there. Did I want to talk about it? Sure?
I would have loved to, But I was never forcing
him telling him to talk about it. So because he
came on as a guest and I was like, all right,
I guess he's going to talk about it. Okay, We're
going there and from there, I mean, you know, that's
when we continue to to speak on it. And looking back,

I think that was the you know, that was he
had pressure around that and him, you know, dealing with
that was was hard, always being the guy. And will
I say to that is just don't keep messing up.
People made you out to be a bad guy, the
bad guy a lot of it, which was very hard

to sit and watch. If I'm you know, people's comments
coming after you a lot. He wasn't always the bad guy.
I mean, I understand that point of view, and to
this or to that, to controlling blah blah blah, they
were coming after you too. So I'm just saying it
wasn't just him and I didn't cheat. That's so interesting though,
that he always complained about being the bad guy and

he never stopped doing the things that made him a
bad guy. And it's like, it's like, people keep calling
me a criminal as you're walking out of the bank
with bags and money in each hand. Isn't that the
like what's the saying like if you do something over
and over again, it's like insanity or something like that's
just you stop, just stop. Yeah, But you know, hopefully
he's healthy now for the kid's sake. So anyhow, let's

talk about something else. Back to Oh good see now
I got Catherine. Back to ZEPS. That's great. I'd like
to go have some right now. Oh my goodness, gracious. Um, well, guys,
I think that's a show. I think I'm talked out.

We're at the lake right now, so I want to
get back out there. I love you, guys.
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