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February 3, 2020 57 mins

In this deeply emotional and honest episode, Jana and Mike open up about recent challenges in their relationship and where they see their future headed as a couple.


We hear their intimate thoughts on the effects of addiction and why men often struggle with empathy.


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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind down and Michael and podcast spoiler alert. Oh, welcome
back to the show. My Mom January is over. I
gotta ask you a question. Did you listen to any
of the Mom January? I haven't yet have that. No,

(00:24):
I'm going to I think it was I missed it. Yeah,
so it was it was hard. It's like it was
kind of like when you know, I first got out
of football. I couldn't watch football that first season because
I wasn't a part of the team anymore. So it
was like, uh, I'm not ready to listen yet. You're

(00:47):
always a part of the team. Yeah, but I was
kind of exile. You were not exibbed, although we were
side commenting being like, you know, someone saved Mike. Where's
throughout the raft and Mike, Um, No, it's just you know,
we had it one episode. I think the first one

(01:10):
was with Sean. I believe it was with Sean and
Kristen and Catherine, and the reaction to the moms were
just like, we want another one. So I figured where
we were at, it would be a good opportunity to
you know what, what can we turn this into? Because
you know, I'm always trying to trying to be like Okay,

(01:31):
what like, what can we do with with where we're
at and like, you know, the podcast, and to make
it something where it's still feels authentic and still feels
real and um, you know, not fake or not any lies.
So it's like mom January and someone just came up
with mom Uary and I'm like, shoot, I gotta used

(01:52):
that in January. So maybe next Momuary we'll do it again.
But then you can come on and be the the dad,
the voice for the husband, the voice for the husbands.
Mark came in clutch a few times, but it's uncle
Mark of courtunated. But no, I mean, I know Easton
missed you. You know, It's funny. When I was uh unavailable,

(02:16):
I texted Easton. I texted him a pictures. It was
I was up in the media room and I was
building that millennium falcon, Lego said, And that's when I said, hey,
do you guys wanna where Mike's been building the up?
And I sent it to Easton. I was like, well,
I guess being an exilely too bad. Now, Okay, I
mean I feel like we should address that elephant in

(02:38):
the room because I don't want the listeners to think
that I just kicked you off the podcast or that
it was just like because that's that's not the case
at all, and all right, all joking aside, real talk time,
serious wine down time. The thing is, you know, Jane

(03:01):
and I are very honest, very vulnerable on this podcast.
That's part of why all of you listen, which we
greatly appreciate. The fact of the matter is we are
still two people with real life problems, and we still
reserve our right to privacy to a certain extent, and

(03:22):
it's our choice to come out and share a lot
of this with you. We learned the hard way when
we came out and try to have that show after
the whole picture deleting incident, and we realized after that,
we learned a lot that you know, we can't share
open wounds. They have to be scars and has to

(03:44):
be something we process first together. And so this past month,
you know, we still have growing to do in our
relationship um together and both individually and for me, it's uh,
it was really a time with things that went on
with us to really dig into and and face face

(04:08):
the facts of things that can be doing better in
my own recovery and growing as a person. And growing
as a husband. Um, so we're really kind of like
Janna said, she she was able to buy buy me
some more time to do that, which I which I appreciate. UM,

(04:29):
And I was very you know, understanding supportive of her.
And you know, I did an individual intensive um over
a long weekend and did a lot of work on myself.
And I mean, Jane and I are in the myths
of doing a couple is intensive right now and doing work, um,
you know, with each other. But it's, uh, it's something

(04:52):
that we're gonna we're gonna dive into at her at
a later time, right, honey. Well, if I'm if I'm
listener and if I'm Mark, you know, they're always like
why dance around it? And um, if you're going to
be honest, be honest. And I feel like and I

(05:13):
get that piece and I understand what you're saying to
you know, the actual specifics is something where you know,
we've been we've been journaling and writing stories. Our story
that sounds so crazy on paper, you know, and it

(05:34):
doesn't make sense. Since I was reading it, I was like, wow,
I like this is crazy. But we've also been able
to write down the resolve of how we were able
to resolve that certain issue. And you know, with this incident,
are we ready to share it? No? But will we yes?

(05:55):
And whether that's us putting something out there later. Right now,
it just feels like what we learned from that incident.
And I think what it's hard to is because you know,
everyone's just looking for like the next headline. And what
hurts us is, like Mike said, we're two people were
trying to share. We are sharing, We're being vulnerable with you.

(06:19):
But when someone gets it wrong, you know, for example,
you know they have they will have put Mike relapsed.
Well that's to someone. They're gonna think, Okay, he relapsed
with another person, or he relapsed. You know, they're going
to come up with something that is harmful for not
only us, but harmful to what we're building and harmful

(06:42):
to the message that we're like no, no, no, no, no,
like they're just reading, oh no, he relapsed again. I
remember reading that, thinking but he didn't. He didn't. He
didn't physically cheat. It within me like he yes, he
with he might have broken a boundary, but that isn't
he didn't. So I'm like still hurt, but yet still

(07:03):
trying to defend him at the same time, and it
becomes this massive conflict where it's that we want to share,
but then we get afraid of what they're gonna misread
and that and you know, what we know is and
I think you can attest to this is what you
know is the last out when you were so um

(07:23):
when the last year and a half, since the one
relapse that was a potential like you were, You've came
out with that that you almost acted on it, that
was that was a relapse, but you didn't act on it.
But since then you've come to realize that you haven't

(07:44):
been truly working your program. Yeah. And in something I've've
kind of discovered in my own work this past month
and that I've kind of had discussions with Jana about,
is you know, there's a big difference between Live being
a not acting out program or not drinking programmer, or
not using drugs program versus a life changing program. And

(08:08):
I had to get real with myself and I had
to realize, I'm like, there's a lot of things in
my life that I'm not doing different, and it just
feels like at times I'm going through the motion and
but when I'm regardless, even if I'm not relapsing or
acting out or stepping outside of our marriage, if I'm
still breaking boundaries, we're not being completely honest with things

(08:31):
like that picture stuff and other things. It's like, how
is that sober? How is that life changing? How is
that living with integrity? It's not, And so it just
you know, we needed time to again grow individually, grow
as a couple, and like Janna said, we're not trying

(08:51):
to dance around anything or withhold it from our listeners.
I mean, the reality is there was a boundary that
was broken, but that was harmful for me because it
was a discovery. But again, it wasn't a physical acting out.
So that's why I'm very careful, and because I do
want to protect you as well, because I don't want

(09:12):
people to think that it was a physical relapse. But
it was also it was such a big discovery with
a boundary that it was harmful to me in our relationship,
which made you then realize, oh my god, I've been
living in this lies of justifications, and I mean, you
can speak more on that. So the people the females

(09:35):
are listeners can maybe understand their husbands or their partners
a little bit more, but where they're living in that
they think that because they're not acting out, it's okay
to do a B and C, when in all actuality,
that's if that partner finds out and that's a boundary,
it's going to affect them, and it's it is that
justification where you know, sometimes at least for myself, I

(10:00):
can't speak for everyone, but it is we try to
make it or I try to make it black and
white where it's like, hey, I'm not acting out. I'm
not you know, physically looking at anything, physically looking at
anything inappropriate. I'm not you know, acting it's out of marriage,

(10:20):
I'm not whatever it is, I'm not doing that. So
what I'm doing is okay. And it's like that justification
where that's my defense and it's taking some time for
me to realize, like, oh wait, this is still triggering
you in ways that didn't realize. And there's also that
piece where it's still a lie and still the justification

(10:42):
is a lie with what you're telling our relationship. So
that piece is still when I ask you, hey, any
secrets are lies that can be that is a secret
and a lie, but you've justified it as not being one,
and that's harmful when someone discovers it and it's like,

(11:06):
but wait, I thought, but I can. I can totally
see on your side where you think where you can
think that. But I think now you've also seen the
opposite effect too of what that discovery and what that
lie does, because I've always said, it's not about the act,
it's about the lie, it's about the discovery. It's about

(11:28):
because that brings me back to day one of the
discovery for sure. So yeah, to bring it full circle,
it's we're not trying to dance around it. We're just
trying to reserve the right to us details right now
for our own privacy, because we've seen how when tabloids

(11:50):
or publications listen to this and they take things and
run with it, it is harmful for our relationship when
they get it wrong. And then next thing, you know,
I have to see shameful things in the news. Janna
has to see comments that are degrading or judgmental, and
that that takes a toll on you. I don't care
who you are, and as much as we don't let

(12:11):
it affect us, after a while, it does, especially when
you leave live and share this openly and vulnerably vulnerably
that we do. And again hopefully we'll be able to
come out with you know, our stories and then we
will certain things like hey, this happened. Uh yeah, um no,

(12:33):
but where it's like this happened and this is how
we dealt with it. And I think you know bottom
line was you know, was a boundary broken? Yes? Was
it harmful for me? Yes? Because of now was it
out of marriage? Did he relapse? No? But I mean
you can speak on it like you've re Yeah, every

(12:54):
set my time, because that was what I needed to
I would have felt like I was still justifying if
I didn't, like I'll still I would still be excusing
behavior that really wasn't different from what I was doing. Yeah,
I wasn't acting out, but still, how is that? How
is that any change? You know? How is that showing

(13:15):
you anything and showing myself anything? So I know the
answer because we've danced around this the past month with
the therapy and you know, been on my knees trying
to understand it, and um, for everyone that's listening and
that it's kind of in this has been in the
same situation. How well, why why do you justify What

(13:40):
makes you justify um when you know that it could
be hurtful or harmful and it's and then it's a
boundary that you know that I said I wouldn't do this,
but uh so what to help the other ladies out
there understand because I know now, because you know, but

(14:05):
it might be helpful for other people to hear that, Yeah,
it's uh it's it's. It is a difficult thing to explain.
But from the work we've done, the work I've done,
what it's come down to for me is it really
it's a selfish thought. First of all, it's self preservation

(14:29):
and it's really entitlement to Yeah, it's it's pride, an
entitlement because it's really hard to sit in the pain
and the consequences of our actions, it really is. And
as a man two sit in the in that pain

(14:52):
and that shame of what you've done and what you've
done to somebody that you love. How do you think
of yourself if as a man, you know, if if
you're not living with integrity and the way a good
man and good husband should. So, how do we regain that?

(15:17):
It's by trying to puff out our chest, plan our
flag on the mountain with pride, an ego and entitlement
and incomes justification for doing things that we know rationally

(15:38):
probably shouldn't be doing. It can be harmful. Um. And
that's just that's just been real, honestly, And that's what
comes down to you for me when you're in that
place and you know I know that. Again. We danced
on this a lot the last month and I said

(16:00):
it every night we've done a check in and he said,
no lies, no secrets. How do you justify that's not
a line, that's not a secret. Please know that I'm
not like I'm beating you up right now, just for
sure feel like we're in a good space. No, we're
in a great space. It's a it comes down to

(16:24):
looking at it black and white, you know what I mean,
where it's just like it's not a line of secret
because I'm not really acting now. I'm not doing the
big things that the tabloids say that, you know what
I mean that the real major big things that everyone
assumes is the issue. Um. And so it is it's

(16:50):
just that rational rationalization justification that I'm a man, I
can I can do this. It's not I'm not doing
the big thing. I'm not taking a drink, mh. I'm
just doing something different that you know, and that's where
you know kind of Over the last month we talked
about where I think for the first time, I've realized

(17:14):
and accepted that boundaries that we have in our relationship
aren't about controlling me. It is about your safety. And
even if I said that in the past, I don't
know if, like in my core, I felt that or
believed it because I didn't think I had a choice.

(17:36):
I just thought I had to do what you need
and what you said because that's what you said you needed,
and I just is it not what your program And
that's and but that's the ship, right, that's the difference
between me then and me now realizing that that's not
just for your safety, that's for my safety. You know

(17:59):
that at I need that too to to be where
I want to be and go where I want to
go and be who I am. So it's a but
it's tough for any man to too. I don't think
there are many men out there that, when in these

(18:21):
kind of situations, when boundaries come up, that were like,
all right, sounds great, and just live within the boundaries
with no kind of feeling internally there's gonna be that
eventual pushback by majority of men. Is it because you
put us in that role of you can't do this

(18:42):
like the dictator? Yeah? And it's hard because even though
our actions are what created that dynamic, h, we still
want to blame you. It's so interesting and it's messed up.
It is, you know, it's just like, uh, what what?

(19:09):
I think it's the immaturity of men um where it's
just like a kid, right, like most kids are high
schoolers are immature. So when our parents disciplined us as
high schoolers or as kids, even though our actions are

(19:29):
there are what our discipline has got us in this situation,
we still say that's not fair. It's so unfair. Why
would you do that? Well, it's because you did something
we asked you not to do, so I think that's
that's what comes up for us. It's like the child
inside of us and men I think just a naturally
more immature, right than than women, especially emotionally more immature

(19:54):
than women. So it's like that little boy inside of
us that's like, that's not fair. I don't want to
don't ground me, you know, I want to play Mario brothers.
So it's it is part of that. And and so
finally feeling like I can be in a place to accept,

(20:19):
truly accept responsibilities for my actions but not just think
of think of them as the responsibility consequences of my actions,
but also realizing that it's for safety for both of us,
and boundaries are something that we agree upon. Okay, I

(20:39):
am are you okay? I see your eyes a little bit.
It's just been a really heavy month. Yeah, And the
heaviness isn't um sorry, um, it's a it's a heaviness,

(21:12):
but it's also like a gratefulness that like we can
still be sitting here conversating um. But it's also that
fear too. I think that's the been the hardest part
of this month, is you know, we've both individually done
a lot of work and then we've done obviously you

(21:32):
were now intensive from nine am to five pm today,
So it's just like just a lot of work, and
so it just feels I feels so heavy, um. But
it also feels um, you know, I feel and I
never m I think I've always been afraid to use

(21:57):
this word, but I do feel hopeful for like the
tools that we've been learning. Um, but it's also very scary,
and you know, I feel like I have some ownership
and you know feeling. You know, I've read back on

(22:22):
comments about this and they're like, you know, you don't
seem like you respect your husband or you talk down
to him, and you know, there's ownership that I can
take in that, because I've had a hard time respecting
you at times because of the constant betrayals and that's

(22:44):
but I's so so it's so hard, and I'm like,
I want to take an accountability for it, but yet
then it's so hard because I'm so afraid to be hurt.
So it's easier to just shell up and just and
to be nasty or too that makes sense. It's easier,
it's easier to be angry. It's easier. It's more fun
to be angry. No, it's not fun. Um, it's easier,

(23:07):
but it is. I guess I'm I guess I'm looking
right now for empathy. Yeah, in this moment right now,
with like and the people that have had in the
same situation, maybe I can speak on the wives and say,

(23:27):
because of the constant lies, can you see how it
might be hard to lean into you and to and
to trust your word. Yeah. Absolutely, and I want you
to know that right now. First of all, I appreciate
I appreciate your vulnerability, and like I hear you and

(23:50):
I see you right now, and I feel I feel
your pain. I can't imagine how hard it is to
lean into somebody who's hurt you so much. That is

(24:12):
terrifying and I'll never know exactly how that feels because
you haven't done that to me, And so I have
so much respect for you. I have so much love
for you and your willingness two to do work in

(24:41):
our relationship, to even to be even to be able
to even say that you're hopeful and willing to take
ownership and look at yourself for a fraction of it.
But I can totally get how hard that must be

(25:08):
when you're like, well, look, dickhead, you should stop doing that.
It won't be so mean, you know, mm hmm um.
I'm devastated by that, and I'm really sorry that I've
made it so difficult because I see you trying, I

(25:31):
really do, and I see why you or the way
you are at times because it's part of the environment
that I created, and I have to own that Yeah, mhm, yeah,

(25:53):
I appreciate that. It's it's Um, I want so bad
badly to move forward and to have that marriage that
we've always talked about and to see the man that
you say you're always going to be. And I think
a lot of other women can maybe relate to this
to where it's like they keep saying, I'm not going

(26:17):
to do that again, or I'll do better next time. UM.
A therapist that we're working with right now, she said,
I'll try is a lie. When someone says I'll try
to do better, that's a lie. I'll try means that's
that's that's a lie. Um. And so when that keeps happening,

(26:43):
then I feel like, so so when the betrayal and
the lies and the discoveries keep happening, it's becomes insanity
in my world. And then I start to feel insane.
I start to feel like and I think other women
out there feel like they're creating or they're repeating it. Um,

(27:06):
it's insanity repeating itself. Yeah, it's a groundhome day. Yeah.
And it's like, but you say you're going to be
this other man, but then you're not doing it, and
then it makes us feel crazy and it makes us
feel like we do we not deserve better? Do we
not deserve more? Do we not deserve to feel love?
Do we not deserve to be told the truth and

(27:27):
to be honest with So then it just tail spins
us and then I make up, and then I start
taking off pictures on Instagram because I'm tail spinning. My
my my younger child is like, I'm, I'm, I'm you know,
I'm I'm. I start just spinning out of control. It's cold,

(27:50):
shut up, no, but I I just I feel like
I don't know, I'm not the only woman out there
that's done that, but it's just it becomes so out
of control that when you and that you know me,
and I'm I'm already at my limit with discoveries and
lies that I've I hit it and I was just

(28:12):
like I pressed the button. I said, yes, this is
where I'm now unraveling. And now I'm harmed again, and
now it's shame on me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna
wall up. And it's just and what I've learned with
my therapist now that I feel like I can maybe

(28:33):
give back to some of the women or men out
there that I've got are going through similar situations, is
you know what's hurt hurt versus harm Because a lot
of times with people that have been in trauma relationships
or um traumatic relationships is for me, where I go
is I'm like, oh my god, I can't do this.

(28:54):
I I like, you know, there you are again showing
your cards. I'm I'm out, I want a divorce, like
I can't do this. But really what I'm wanting is
safety and to feel loved and to feel security, and
to want to feel like he chooses me and that
I'm good enough to be told the truth. But what

(29:16):
happens is whether it's a hurt or harm, I go
straight to the the I can't do this, Oh my god.
And so what I've had to discover and therapy is, Okay,
what is hurtful verse harmful? What? Because I know you're
going to hurt me again. I know that we were
going to have arguments that are going to hurt, and
we're going to say things and it's not going to

(29:37):
be perfect. I know. But I can't go down the
line of oh my god, I can't do this anymore
because that's just that's a cycle that we both It's
not fair for you. It's not fair for me. It's
not fair for anyone. It's not fair for my friends
that call. They're like, oh Jesus, your thirtieth time, and
he said you're done. So it becomes this like run
on and so it's like, okay, I wrote down a

(29:58):
list of for me in this might be something that
can be helpful for the listeners to. I wrote down
a list of what's hurtful and what's harmful. What's something
where I physically cannot hold anymore. I physically cannot handle
if he lies about this or I discover this, or
this happens versus. You know, he was mean and said

(30:25):
something mean to me. Am I going to go to
I can't do this anymore, you know, But my first
reaction is always to go to that I can't do
this anymore. You haven't and sorry, real fast. I just
want to get this piece because I think a lot
of people can wait to this do. I go to,
you don't know what you've done, you don't know how
bad you've hurt me. You have no empathy for what
I've gone through, and you don't feel my pain. And

(30:46):
I start then repeating the trauma and he's like, you know,
he and he's like, you've already said that a million times,
But I keep repeating and repeating and repeating it because
I don't feel the empathy and I don't feel that
he truly understands it. So that's why I keep repeating
it a million times, because I'm like, listen to me,
hear me. I'm my five year old self right now.
I need you to freaking hold me. I need you

(31:07):
to tell me that you love me and that you're
here from me and that you won't leave me, and
then I'm worth it, and then I deserve it. Mhm.
So I think finding and that's the piece. Like the
other day, we got into an argument, you know, just
as silly poke back, poke back kind of argument, and

(31:28):
in my past I would have said, oh my god, sir,
you're not changing. I don't want to do this, I'm
over it, and instead I was just like okay, Like
I I was like, this is just a hurt, and
we're going to figure this out from from the hurt place,
not from the harm place, because the harm place. You
now know how serious I am with what's going to
happen in the hard place. Okay, So now that we

(31:51):
have very clear boundaries of what is And I don't
say that from I know that sounded probably like from
a uh finger pointing, but you know, and from a
very like soft place. And you know what is harmful
for to me? That And it's not even in acting out, Yeah,

(32:11):
it's not even there's something on that harmful list that
doesn't involve him acting out with another female, but it's
something that's so harmful for me, Like, for example, I'll
tell you one a discovery. If I find a different
discovery that involves a lie, I that is harmful for
me and I physically cannot hold it anymore. And you've

(32:34):
seen what happens when I when it does happen, and
in the repeatedness of it, it's just and I think
it's truly you've you've saw the past of mind because
this has been the longest that we've been at odds,
and I think you've really saw the Okay, wow, this
is what happens for you when you discover X, Y,

(32:54):
and Z and what that lie does to you. And
you know, our therapist in Los Angeles and you're scraping
him with the other day, he's like, most marriages don't
end because of them cheating on their spouse. It ends
because they lied to them. It ends because the other
spouse discovered something, and that's what ends the marriage. And

(33:16):
for and for the guy or for the person in
my shoes in the relationship, we're like, Okay, yeah, we
hear that, but we don't really believe it. Like I'm
not cheating on you, I'm not sleeping with anybody else.
It's not the same thing. It's not the same thing.
You're that's bullsh You're not gonna, you know, be me

(33:39):
because I just didn't tell you the exact truth or whatever.
But no, they will. But why, like I mean, joking aside,
joking aside, it's it's because it is so triggering because
chances are people in our situation, the affair or the infidelity,

(34:04):
it's most likely discovered. Very seldom are the cases that
someone was honest and brought it to him, which kudos
to you, but usually they are discovered. So it's not
what they discovered is that act of discovering. So for Janna,
when she has to has to discover something, it brings

(34:25):
her right back to the beginning when initial discovery happened,
and that is that is the trauma, especially if the
lie was attached to it. That is the trauma in
in in her life that I created because of my actions.
And that's something, like Janna said, I clearly feel and

(34:51):
understand in a way that I haven't before. Can I ask,
just for the women are men, it took you to
understand it now? Like what maybe why didn't you see
the pain before? Why didn't you see it when you
were in treatment? Or why didn't So I'm just like what,
Like again, I know the answer, but I'm just what

(35:13):
is it that? Why does it take certain relapses, are
certain falls or certain and I think it's something something
interesting you said to me too. I don't know if
you want touch him, but you said I knew you
wouldn't have left for the other times, So I don't
know if you want touch on that too. Let's take
a break and then I'll fill everybody in Welcome back, Mike.

(35:43):
So before the break, Janna asked, basically what was the
missing empathy piece? Like why is it taken this long
for me to really see your pain? I think because
I think that was when we went through our incident
before the New year, it was just and it's like

(36:06):
you saw the pain then but it's like, well, what
took you? Like? What what about all the other times
that you saw me in pain like that piece? It's
like you know, and for women out there that feel
the same way, where it's like a r will they
ever feel the empathy and then be what what was
it that took you to that piece? Um? It's just

(36:32):
like in a lot of things in life or addiction
or anything, it's you know, you don't really know that
you hit bottom until you're there. And even when you
think you hit bottom, you hit another bottom, and you
think you hit bottom, you hit another bottom. Um, And
I think too is and I'm not I don't want this.

(36:55):
I'm not trying to make this a trend on this
episode about speaking about men in general. But empathy doesn't
come as natural maybe two men. And so I think
part of how we're created and how we're the environment

(37:20):
which we're raised, um, whether in home or societal. And
uh so it's not a flip of a switch. Unfortunately,
it takes time. It takes time to learn how to
actually lean in and not deaf, you know, defend your pride,

(37:47):
to really just here the pain and sit in the
pain and feel the pain of somebody else, they their
pain is because of me. That's hard to do. We're
not taught how to do that. We're taught to defend ourselves,
to stand up for ourselves, to get over it, to

(38:09):
not show emotion. So to be asked to sitting someone
else's emotion, we can't even sit in ours. So it's
you know, it just it took me time, unfortunately, and
I'm sad about that because that's just adding more pain

(38:32):
and more distance between us and our marriage. And I
wish it we didn't have to go through so much.
I really don't, you know, because I do choose you,
I do love you, I do respect you, and I
truly feel those things. But I know my actions I

(38:53):
haven't always shown it and you always haven't felt it
because of this, because of those actions. Ye. So yeah,
I mean everyone else, everyone has their own timeline and
the what do you do with the entitlement piece or
the you know, for the guys or women that have

(39:16):
that entitlement piece where it's um. You know, you've even
said with your addict that you're like, yeah, I got it,
What do you do with this? What are the steps
that you're taking? I mean, I know but like, what
for those out there that what are steps that you're

(39:38):
doing too? Because I'm gonna say my steps that I
have to do now, you know with the recovery piece,
but what for you? What are the steps that is
it acknowledgement? Is it leaning into recovery? Are you talking
from purely a recovery standpoint? Are you talking from give

(40:00):
me both for those dealing with either from just trying
to change who they've been. Yeah, I think you can
do both. I think you can do recovery and you
can also do mm hmm. What for those people that
aren't addicts or sex addicts or alcoholics or what can
they do? What can they do to maybe help show

(40:20):
some trust? Because I mean what I had said to
you and just full disclosure, I was like, what do
I have to hold onto? You've taken every piece of
and you've said everything before. So what do I have
that I can actually hold on to anymore? I don't?
And that's been the hardest pieces to try to regain

(40:41):
that the blocks again. Yeah, and you know it's I'm
glad you say that because it reminded me of kind
of sparked how I want to answer this and for
so much of the past. So for years in this
with you, you're hear in program, you hear from every

(41:05):
therapist is you have to want this for yourself, and
that's just that's addiction aside. You have to want the
change for yourself. You have to want the respect for yourself.
You have to you have to want all that for yourself.
And over the past several years I said those words

(41:29):
out loud, but I didn't necessarily believe him. Where I
was motivated internally more by doing something to try to
show you and put on a show or aracade to
be like CEC like I'm doing this, I'm doing this,

(41:50):
when really I was just punching the clock, going to
a meeting, punching my time card. Yeah I went to
a meeting this week. Call my sponsor. Yeah I call
my sponsor this week, you know, doing whatever else to
change as a husband, as a man, whatever, and just
being like, yeah, I'm doing this to show that I'm

(42:11):
doing something different, when again, in reality, I'm not doing
anything life changing. I'm feeling the same way about myself.
I'm not respecting myself anymore, I'm not loving myself anymore
because I'm really not doing anything different. And I said
this to you just not long ago. It's the most

(42:32):
cliche thing we've all heard, and it's never been more
true for me than it is now. And that's you
can't truly love someone else until you love yourself. I've
never really understood that. I've never really got it until now.

(42:53):
And I was like, oh, that's true. That's true. Because
if I can't even respect myself and be honest with
myself because I justify everything, how the hell did I
expect myself to to do that to you? How can
I respect you if I don't respect myself? How can
I be honest to you? If I'm not honest to myself.

(43:15):
You can't. If you can't do it to yourself, then
who the hell can you do it too? Can't give
someone something you don't have and you don't give yourself.
So and that again, that goes for that's not just
addiction recovery aspect. That's for you know, relational and even

(43:37):
if you're not in a relationship, for yourself, so do
something different. So for me, that's I'm doing things I've
never done before. And it's funny that we're it's starting
to become a habit where I look forward to it.
I look forward to that time I make every morning,
and it is about making the time. This is probably

(43:58):
one of the first times I'm making not just taking
time out of my day. I'm making time out of
my day by waking up earlier to do things. And
it for once, it doesn't feel like a chore because
I'm not just doing it to appease you. I'm doing
it because I'm actually gaining something out of it, and
I feel more self respect for myself because I'm actually

(44:22):
being honest and following through with it. So it's those
kind of things where like you said, I've said everything before,
I've done it all before. For the most part, it's
like what else, what do you have to hold onto?
And I was like, I have said everything before. There's

(44:45):
only one place else to look, and that's inside of me.
And it's like, what do I need to do to
change for me? Because everything I've tried to do to
change for you hasn't worked. It's just the same pattern
because every time I just try to change for you
and salvage and rescue the situation, and some time passes

(45:06):
and then we just kind of fall back into the
same thing and look where that's gotten us, you know.
So I think that's the biggest thing for me, whether
male or female, is do it for you, do it
for you. And that leads into the exact situation with

(45:30):
for the I don't ever want to say the victim
because that sounds but for the Okay, the person who's hurt, well,
you're hurt too, the person who got hurt, you got
hurt too. Yeah, because of my actions, I just yeah,

(45:51):
um is. I remember sitting in therapy with my therapist Amy,
who I just adore so much, and you know, this
is a couple of weeks ago, and I'm just you know,
I'm like, well, how do I, how do I? How
do I trust him again? How do we you know,
how do I do this? Or how do I? What
do I do? And how does you know? He has

(46:13):
just kept saying you and she's like, you're so focused
on She's like, you have to do your work. She's like,
which we're doing. She's like, but you always She's like,
you're always trying to figure out how to be better
for him, or how to how to trust him or too.
It's like you're so your world is so involved with

(46:33):
him that you're forgetting the pieces that you need to
work on and you need to to love and and
nurture and to understand why you're looking for these certain things.
You know, why you're looking for safety and why you're
looking for trust, and like why you're repeating or what? Also,

(46:55):
what are you staying for? What are you you know?
But it's it's not it's not about you, because she's like,
that's just like, then we do we do a couple
of sessions. She's like, well, right now we have to
figure out what what are your emotions and what you're
feeling and not it's not about him? And that was
such a I was like, oh, okay, well that's scary.

(47:18):
I don't want to look at me right now. Like
it's easier to just be like, well, how can I
trust him? And well I have to go inside and
figure out what parts of me am I not? You know,
why don't I trust? And why do I feel the
need for safety so bad? And that's when you start,
you know, going in your child at traumas, which you

(47:38):
know I have done time and time again. But every
time you go back to your childhood traumas, you realize
more things than with our relationship and what we've learned
kind of in our intensive is you know, I'm looking
for safety or looking for autonomy, rest and respect. Yeah,
and and I'm looking for safety and connection. And it's
like when we sit there and we bring in our

(48:00):
childhood self and then we talked about our fights like well, no,
wonder why like the dance that we're doing. But now
I can look at and be like, Okay, this is
what he's needing in this moment. How can I now
help him in this moment? But also I'll just go
back to like the personal recovery is just again realizing

(48:22):
what you're worth is and you know, for a long
time and this has been something that's been real hard
to deal with. Is I always thought that I deserved Um,
I thought that I deserved the abuse. For my first husband,
I thought that I deserved his Really, you know that
it was my fault that he relapsed. It was my
fault that he had you know, that was it was

(48:43):
my fault. And I have put all this pressure and
weight and ugliness and just darkness on myself, which comes
out in ugly ways. It comes out, and anger towards
you comes out, in being hurtful, It comes out and shameful.

(49:03):
It comes out in me repeating the haven't don't you
see my lad? It's like it comes out and such,
But all I'm looking for is just that safety m
h and not it's exhausting. I have something to say
on that I think might help the listeners. Let's take
a break real quick. I'm gonna come back to that,

(49:33):
all right. So I had something I wanted to bring
up before the break there based on what you said.
I think it's interesting that even though we're doing this
work together and we're able to see each other's like
behind the scenes feelings and stuff, I think that's not

(49:55):
even where the main benefit is. It's like, the main
benefit is for us to be able to identify our
own feelings in the situation, you know what I mean.
So it's not even more. I think there's more power
with you being able to be like, man, why am
I feeling this way? What's coming up with me? Instead
of me having to interpret Okay, what was it about

(50:18):
our past? Again? Because yeah, we know each other stories
very very well, but not as well as you know
yours and I know mine because we physically feel those feelings.
So to be able to be educated in for us
as individuals to look back and be like, Okay, what
is coming up for me? And to be able to
express that to each other, that just sets us, sets
us up for more success, to be able to articulate it,

(50:41):
to articulate that to one another. Yes, also, it's so hard,
so hard to be that vulnerable. I mean even earlier
today when I wanted to express the feeling to it
took me twenty minutes to get vulnerable because before I
just wanted to say, aren't you gonna help with kids?

(51:01):
You said you're gonna help with kids, you know, And
that's what I wanted to say. But instead I felt
the feeling and was like, what is this feeling? And
I was like, you know, the Janna before would have
done something passive or would have thrown it at you,
or would have been like you said you were going
to come up and help with kids, But was that

(51:23):
more important? Clearly? Don't you know? You know? And just
be And so I was just I felt it like
in my chest, and that's when I came down here
and I said, I I need to express a feeling
and it just it's so raw and it's so vulnerable.
But you were able to hear me. And that's the
difference where when we cast passiveness or not respect like

(51:48):
vice versa. Like both of us do that and we
we don't hear the other person, but you were able
to hear the other person when they sit here from
a good place and they're like Bill and Laurie are
are couples in tense of will set. You know, mad
props to them because there if anyone has a chance
to come to Nashville and doing intensive with them, Bill
and uh Lorie Loke either absolutely incredible human beings, but

(52:13):
they're not You're not only able in that process to
see maybe what your spouse is little child needs, but
also what you need or what you're feeling or like
and how to how to be vulnerable and how to
go there. And it's so I mean, there's so many
times the last couple of days where we've sat in
and it's just like we look at her and it's
like it's so uncomfortable to be so vulnerable. Yeah, but

(52:36):
it's cool because we get to see because it's a
husband and wife that are doing this intensive together. You
never feel it's even numbers, so you never feel ganged
up on like that can happen in a couple of
sessions when it's just one therapist, and we also get
to see their couple ship in front of us where
they're like, oh, I just interrupted, sorry, and they have
their moments of like their own work in front of us,

(52:58):
and it's really cool to see that even these professionals
who do this stuff aren't perfect and that kind of
brings us to you know, wrapping this episode up with
you know, we share because we want to be able
to help you know, people out there. We want people

(53:21):
to not feel alone and to understand that they don't
have to get it all right because clearly we don't. Yeah,
and just like you hear sometimes when it's like man,
I don't feel like you respected Mike that episode or
you were being it's like, yeah, I was. But also
in a way take that as a learning tool to
also see what I could have done differently and how

(53:42):
you can grow. And also it's for me too, This
is this podcast as a learning tool for me as
an individual too, to be how could I have expressed
that differently? How could I have said that differently? How
can I be a better friend, How can I be
a better wife? How can I be a better mom. Yeah,
we're learning, and we will still make mistakes and there

(54:02):
will still be hurt but I pray together there's no
more harm Well said. Honey Well said, but we're we
learn as much if not more from when we do this,
and maybe hopefully anyone out there is because we're going
through this and like jan said, we're not perfect. Were

(54:25):
trying to figure this out too. I just would like
to say too that we do appreciate um y'all for
letting a share and for being there and for not judging.
And that's that's the hugest part, because we're we're putting
ourselves out there in a very vulnerable way to be

(54:46):
picked upon, picked apart, and made to be criticized. Like
our story is a very criticized She's dumb, He's this,
you know, and it's it's a very criticized piece where
it can be hurtful sometimes, but we know what can
be harmful and we know what for us at the

(55:09):
end of the day, we want to be able to
continue to say, you know what, who listens to this
podcast with people that know our hearts and that know
that we're doing this for the right reasons. And also
we're wanting to be authentic because we don't know the
answers and we're not trying to we don't not trying
to be perfect because we don't know how to be
and who knows how to be perfect? But if we

(55:30):
can help someone along the way try to navigate their struggles,
then we're here for you, and we hear you and
we see you, and we love help along the way too,
because we're not above any of it and we're right
there with you, all here you. I'm tired. I'm tired too,
and I just want to say thank you, honey for

(55:51):
holding it down. And I am so excited to be back.
I feel very fortunate to be back, and definitely don't
take you for granted. Thank you. I appreciate that. And
it's so hard, no I I I'm going in. Something

(56:19):
that maybe we can touch on the next episode is
how we're gonna move and create a new marriage. And
I just would encourage you guys to listen to Estra
Parrel and her Ted talks about the new marriage because
that's what I kind of want to touch on next
week and I'd like that for us, so that way, Yeah,

(56:39):
the pain can still be there, but it's not. It's
we want a different marriage and I would like to
marry and start fresh, you know, so deep breath everyone.
We'll see you next week, will you know? Okay, I

(57:02):
guys stand in in anute.
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