October 12, 2020 • 49 mins
Jana receives a message that puts their entire marriage in jeopardy. As they work things out live on air, how can Mike ever fully regain Jana’s trust?
They relive some painful moments and open up about challenges from their past for the first time ever.
And we talk to a divorced couple that not only made their post-marriage relationship work, but they wrote a book together!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Find Down with Janey Kramer and Michael Coffman an I'm
her radio podcast. You know, we had to get Mark,
our producer, to make sure he was on today because
we got the juice today.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well it's I mean, I yeah, it's like unfortunate, unfortunate,
but what unfortunately comes with the unfortunate unfortunately of the
territory with.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
The unfortunate truth of the unfortunate past?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Mm hmm. Mark is like, right now.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
I'm so intrigued right now because both have kind of
smiles on your face and maybe this isn't so serious, but.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Then it.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
Seems I'm getting a serious vibe.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I was, I was.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hyperventilatingly bawling, hyper a lot of Ellie's I'm adding into this. No,
I was, I was bawling last night. And actually Mike
about five minutes before we started this goes, you know,
we've learned our lesson sharing things that are not healed,
and you know, if we don't want to talk about it,
we don't have to. And I was like, no, I'm like,
(01:12):
it's it is what it is. It's just it's unfortunate.
So do you want mean to start go for it?
So on a few days ago, I got a DM
saying that Mike cheated, and the reason why it caught
(01:39):
me off guard was because the very first time I
found out Mike cheated on me was through a DM. Sure,
so automatically I'm in freak out mode because I think
and I told my therapist that I to sout with
(02:02):
her the other day, and you know, I told her,
I was like, I almost have this weird PTSD where
I I go through my dms almost looking to see
if I'm if the truth is going to prevail in
a DM again, Like I have this like fear when
I go through my dms, but then I also have this, well,
(02:23):
I don't want to miss it, like if this is
my the sign or that it shows me again that
he cheated. So it's just said Mike cheated again. I'm sorry.
And I looked at the person's profile had zero followers, zero,
so it's like they just made this, like they just
made this account, so I reached out, which could go
(02:45):
either way.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
That could be, oh, it's just a crazy person, or
this could be legit. It kind of shows on both sides.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Of the coin exactly, And so that's where I was
kind of like stuck, and I called my friend Sarah,
who was there from me from like from D Day,
Like she's the one who told me to like look
into Mike cheating. And I center this and I was like,
what do I do? Because you know, we just got
(03:12):
freaking our book out in New York Times Bestsellers. And
I'm like, is this it's like you just said, it's
either someone is trying to mess with me and pop
this bubble and get in my head, or it's true.
And I said, and this the really sh sucky thing
about it is that my default can't go to there's
(03:34):
no way, Like That's where I told Mike last night,
like that's where it like hurts the most, where I
can't just go I trust him a thousand percent he
would never do that. And I think that's where that's
where it's stung. And that's where I'm like, am I
really going to start having this DM conversation with this
girl or whoever it was?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
And I did.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I can, so I started dming this person and again,
and I'm just like, you know, they're telling me things
that maybe could make sense or it maybe could be wrong,
you know, and I don't know. You know, she's said
a few things about his hometown. I'm like, okay, well
they can just look that up on inner the Internet.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
She said something about he's got a secret device, which
has always been a fear of mine, that maybe he
has some secret device that he talks to other people on.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So she's telling me all these things. I'm like, okay,
well that could be valid, or that could be coret,
you know. And I'm like, am I talking to just
some sad person and wherever that's just trying to make
me upset? Or is there some truth to this? And
so I sat with it for a few days before
bringing it to Mike because.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
The thing is too though. This person is saying isn't
even speaking on their behalf. They're speaking on their friend's behalf.
They're saying that their friend is the one that I'm
cheating with or whatever. This person isn't even like saying
that they're the person.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, and she's like she, you know, she's going to
be so upset with me. I just feel like you
need to know. And you know, her and Mike talk
all the time, and they think they're going to be together,
and you know, they have unprotected sex, and Mike just
says that you are, that he's just living in this
(05:26):
world of control that you've created and he's trying to
get out and all these things. I'm like, well, maybe
that's how he truly feels. And I'm like, oh my god,
and I just I'm so I just start to kind
of unravel. But I start to just be like, well,
show me the proof, because here's the deal at the
end of the day. And I've told this to Mike.
You got proof, show it to me, you know, And
(05:47):
I can't be an idiot and to not say, Okay, fine,
let's see the proof. Prove me wrong, prove you know,
prove the lie wrong. And you know, she kept saying, well,
she won't let me or she'll get so mad. She's
upset with me that I'm even saying anything to you,
but good luck. Just know that, like you're not going
to find the secret device. And I'm just like, so
(06:09):
what do I do? And this is another thing I
told them. I was like bawling last night. I was like,
I searched the freakin' house.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Oh you know, I'm like.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
For like not like the entire but I'm like looking,
I'm like, what am I doing? Like this is like
She's like, I'm going crazy, And so I went to
my therapy office or whatever and sat down with her
to talk about it before I talked to Mike about it.
And I'm like, I don't want to be looking under
the bed or going in his drawers trying to find
(06:43):
the secret device that this who knows if it's even real.
And I'm like, how do I deal with this? And
you know, because I'm like, we're coming off a high
and now this, but I can't ignore it completely, you know,
because of our history, and I can't really one thousand percent,
(07:03):
like there's not enough stuff in the bank to trust
his word one thousand percent because of this stuff with
last year, and that sucks. And I'm like, so I'm
just kind of like stuck, and you know, he's he
noticed it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, I you know, I noticed something was up with
with Jana the last couple of days, and I, you know,
I was prying the other day more and more. He
kept saying, nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong, and I just I know,
I know you just like you know me, like we
know each other. And so finally Jana was just kind
of like, well, you know, I need to I need
(07:41):
to process this with my therapist and I need to
find out some more information and figure all this out.
And so I had to, you know, and I respect
and appreciate and I affirmed Jana last night for doing
the work around this that she's done and handling the
way she has because she would have been so easy
(08:04):
for her as soon as she got this to come,
mf me and.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh, in the past, I've grabbed his phone and thrown
it across the room and shattered.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
It, right, So it was you know, So I was like,
all right, she's doing her work. I can't use that
against right now. I can't get frustrated because she's not
talking to me. So I was like, Okay, I have
to do my work now and not be codependent and
try to take on her feelings. So I was like, okay,
and how to just walk away and sit with it?
(08:32):
And you know, once she finally told me last night, man,
it like it it crushed me because it sucked, like
I feel the same as her, where I'm like, it
sucks that she can't default to trusting me. It sucks
(08:53):
that I've done what I've done in the past to
create that in a relationship. Right now, my hope is
that years down the line, you know, if something like
this happened again, she'd be able to bring it to
me and we would almost be able to like laugh
about it, you know, because there is that much trust
in the bank. But you know, I didn't fault her
(09:15):
at all for questioning me, for still trying to figure
these things out, you know. And then when she told
me she searched the house, it's just like my heart
just sank because you know, I just felt so bad,
like so bad for my wife, like to have to
that you have to feel these things, and that it's
(09:36):
a direct correlation to the things I've done in the past,
you know, And it's which it sucks, man. It's just
people like this, you know. I know, Jana's still kind
of wrapping her head around this and trying to still
gather information even though this person person and deleted that account.
(10:01):
And when you tried to.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Because Mike basically said like, let's ask for her number,
let's call her, and yeah, and they they deleted the
their account, and I you know, and I also like
sent like a thing saying like, well, I'll send the
lawyers after you this defamation and you know, or whatever
(10:24):
we could figure out because and I think the therapist
said too. She's like, unfortunately, this isn't going to be
the last time this comes up. It wasn't the first,
and that's not going to be the last, especially because
we have put our relationship out there. And here's the deal.
You know, when you go on those tabloid sites, they're like,
she hasn't he's gonna cheat again. That's different than when
(10:47):
someone says he's cheated on you, he's done it again.
He is, yeah, And it's like that makes me kind
of stop more in my tracks and to be like,
if you have the proof, just give it to me,
but don't, don't don't come on my page. And and
that's just.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
That's just wrong.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So whoever you are or that's it's just wrong and
it's mean and it's calculated, and it just feels so ugly.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
And it's tragic that somebody out there just thought that
would be funny, right, or thought there'd be fun And
do you think she'll respond like, oh my gosh, she's
responding like the the whole mindset of that is just
you know, we've talked endlessly about social media right now
and what assessed pool of the comments can be and stuff,
But really it's really depressing that somebody feels like that
(11:36):
would be a good time to try to mess with
your relationship, Like that question, why not go to Mike initially?
Did you consider before you even responded to this person?
Did you consider going to Mic right away?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Why I didn't?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And I think why he says he hopes that we
can get to that place is because usually there is
truth to something like that.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
She was.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Scared of me lying yeah, sure, which I totally understood.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I don't blame right, I mean I had, you know,
the first Instagram girl a million years ago, you know,
reached out and I was like, hey, Mike, and I did.
I was like, I just got to text a DM
saying that some girl you slept with some girl and
he's like.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
What, No, I would never.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And then I'm like, in that same breath, I was like,
can you show me some proof? And she sent messages
and I was like, then what is this?
Speaker 6 (12:31):
You know?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So it's like it's that because you know, and then
just last Christmas being like are you on anything?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And he was lying.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So it's that's the unfortunate part, and that's where we're
going to have to get to I hope that we
can get to that place of years down the line
where I can I can just go to him and
not believe it for a second.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Why do you believe him now? Just then?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I'm not trying to cause trouble, but because she vanished
like that, because she was clearly causing problems.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's not that I I don't think she fully believes
me yet I have a hard time believing it, but
I also don't. At the same time. What my therapist
helped me kind of talk about was that I brought
(13:21):
it up. He has now told me his truth. It's
now something that I can't It's not on me to
be detective or control or it's now in I honestly,
it's in God's hands where if there's the truth will
show eventually, and that truth may be that it was
(13:44):
real or that it wasn't, and over time, hopefully it
will be that it wasn't and he'll continue, you know,
he'll come to me with things or be honest and
continue to be honest, and that way I can be
more quick to trusting him. But in the season that
we've been in the last five years, unfortunately it's not.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
There that quick.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So do I believe it fully, No do I still
have a percentage of doubt a little bit, just because
I think that I'm human just have that.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Trauma from the past. I mean, this is the first situation.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Like this, and I think would also kind of put
a cherry on the top. Was the other day I
was on my Catherine's going to hear this the first
time on here. I was on my manager slash best
friend's phone and I was doing an audio recording on
her phone and she had like not many audio recordings,
(14:41):
and I just saw Mike Discovery day and I was
like what And I was like, oh my god, this
is we recorded when we confronted Mike, And like an idiot,
I listened to it, you know, and just like reliving
like all the like. It was just like it was
just heavy. But then hearing it be like no, so
(15:01):
it's just that didn't help with the emotions.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
Is there any chance?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
And I'm always looking at the bright side that this
is actually going to eventually be a positive step in
the sense that we're going to get past this And
then the next time somebody on Instagram does this, it's
not going.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
To trigger you like the last ones did.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
It's going to trigger the emotions of oh, no, another
person's trying to screw up our relationship because look here
we are giving a lot of attention to this, this
awful person on your podcast. Somebody else might try to
do it. Maybe that's going to make you trust Mike
Moore and the DMS less because we've gotten past this hurdle.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, I mean, that's the hope. Yeah, that's the hope.
Is that I mean for me, I will say it's
you know, it's nice to be in the like, it's
nice to actually be truthful, you know, you know what
I mean, Like for someone who's so used to lying
(16:01):
and being caught in a lie and being that way
so much of my life, especially in relationships and in
our marriage, you know, as much pain as I feel
and shame around the whole situation and seeing the hurt
that Janet is going through and myself feeling the pain
because of trauma from the past, the relief is, well,
(16:25):
I know the truth. I know my truth, and so
it is a relieving feeling, not having that like kicking
the gut feeling of like, oh, when's something gonna come
out that's gonna prove this right? And you know, what
and so that's for me, that's just the relief, but
I understand Jana can't have that yet, and so I'm
(16:49):
hoping again to reiterate, I'm hoping that this is just
a building block of trust, that the truth will show
itself in all its form that Jana can accept, and
then we move on to the the next time, because
like her therapist said, like you said, Mike, this probably
won't be the last time. We kind of have a
target on our backs. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So I think it's how we and you know what
my therapist is like, get a plan in place for
when this does happen next time, and you know.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Ask for the proof. But also you know.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
How he handles it too, He's like, let's call it
like no, no, I don't want to say like people
don't do it because we don't want to call you,
but I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
We wouldn't call you with our numbers, so don't and.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
We would probably you know, get some lawyers involved. So
it's not going to be a fun process.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But it's just to say hi. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So I just I think it's just one of those
things where you know, hopefully I'm always open to the
truth and to proof, but I'm not open to bullshit.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
It's tough because you can't prove a negative. As hard
as Mike would like to try and prove it to,
you can't prove he didn't do something that's so difficult
to establish. Has there been any uh, look at my messages,
look at my DMS? Or not even bothering because you
think this is a second device anyway, allegedly. Wait, what
do you mean, Like I'm saying, is he being overly
(18:18):
forthcoming with all of his private things to kind of
try to prove the negative?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I might, Yeah, he said, look look through my messages,
look through my DMS, like, I assure you nothing's happening.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
But she said he deletes them.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah right, And I was like, let's get the phone bill,
let's look at the you know what I mean, like,
give us an else on her, give us a number,
a separate account.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
I mean, it's so.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Hard to prove, and honestly, that just sounds exhausting.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It does sound exhausting.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So I just am like, Okay, I gotta I will
accept all things that I can control, and everything else
will just show its face and the truth will come
out one way or the other.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
But that's that.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
It's a bump in the road, and I think that's
all it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Oh, I mean, yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
It was hard, but for sure, And again I know
I firmed you last night, but you were so adult
around all of this, and I just I commend the
hell out of you because that can't be easy, that
those triggers and the trauma and all of that, Like
anybody would nobody would blame you from going off and
(19:32):
shooting from the hip. And so I commend you for
the work that you did, and I think for us,
the work that we did around the situation and that
will continue to do. I think we've handled it individually
and together the best we can.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
So not a bump, it's a win.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, So thank you who ever did.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
No, thank you to whoever did that, because that just
showed that I can trust my husband.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
So thanks, but more so because you're not We're not
gonna let you. We're not gonna let you win.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
No way.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Anyways, let's take a break and shake that one off.
I love you, love you all right. All right, guys,
we're so excited about our guests today because we're on
(20:31):
opposite spectrums of them, So there's gonna be a lot
of questions.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
But I mean, yes, but also like they live our dream.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
I'm just kidding your dream. Oh my god, Stuned, there's
a whole other topic we get to talk about.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, I'm right, you guys.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
We have the amazing divorced couple Ben and Nikki, who
are the authors of our Happy Divorce.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Hi, guys, I and apparently we just found out that
this is Mike's dream, so not my dream.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
We were just talking, we were just talking about the
other day and just hypothetical, We're like, oh, we'd hope
we would be friends. Ah, I'm sorry, I'm myself hypothetically.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
I don't think anybody gets like it has the decision
to get divorced and says, okay, how are we going
to hate each other for the rest of our lives
and live our lives with you know, all this toxic
energy forever?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Right?
Speaker 6 (21:30):
It just people don't deal with the emotional side of
the divorce before they deal with the business side, you know.
So I don't think anything anybody premeditates. Let's not get
along and let's hate each other for the rest of.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Our lives, for sure, So give us us and our
listeners a little bit of your background. Do you guys
have any kids? And how long were you married and
when did you get divorced.
Speaker 7 (21:50):
We were married seven years. We have one child together,
So then Ben has two other children that I consider
mine now even though I don't have to have I
don't have to have them twenty four hours a day.
I get to send them back. We got divorisd what
when our son was about three and a half.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, So does it have anything to do with the
seven year itch at all?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
You think No?
Speaker 7 (22:13):
I think art started itching about year four.
Speaker 8 (22:16):
We just started going.
Speaker 6 (22:18):
I think our itch started before we even got married.
And I think, you know, looking back on it, we
went through every red light, every stop sign, every blinking
railroad track and just plopped through it. And we had
in our twenties at the dating in a couple of
years and it was like time, you know, it's.
Speaker 8 (22:35):
Time to get married.
Speaker 6 (22:35):
And we got married, and then we were always trying
to fit that square peg in the round hole. Instead
of realizing that it doesn't fit, we just kept on
trying to push it and make it fit. And then
we're like, Okay, well maybe we'll have a kid and
that's will make it fit, of course, and obviously would
never take that away because it's the best thing that
had happened to either of us. But you know, it
(22:56):
was one of those things that once we have our
kid and we were always our marriage was was always based.
Speaker 7 (23:00):
On quarantine for two weeks home with his mother.
Speaker 8 (23:03):
There's that, not his dad, thank god.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
But it's the if onlys our marriage was always the
if onlies, if only Nikki would do this, if only
Ben would do this, you know, and not living in
the present.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
What was y'all's conflict when you when you were married, Like,
what what eventually led y'all to, you know, to going
down the divorce option.
Speaker 7 (23:24):
I think for us, we got being in love and
loving each other mixed up and there was like we
never really had any conflict. We were just like best
friends and we were like just sort of like two
ships passing in the night where we were more like
you know, pals living together instead of like lovers.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
And then I think that, you know, again the square
peg thing is, but instead of realizing that that we
had gotten in love and loving each other confused, we
actually started getting more and more mad that that square
peg would fit in a round role and more resentful,
and so you know, at the end, it wasn't you know,
(24:04):
let's get divorced, Let's hug it out, we love each other,
Let's write a book called Our Happy Divorce. You know,
we had, you know, all the drama that you know,
marriages don't end on winning streaks, right, it's not you know,
people know, hey, you know, we had a fight last night.
Let's get married. You know it was it was years
of you know, talking about it, me moving out, me
moving back in, and then we made that decision. But
(24:27):
you know, one thing that's important in our story, in
our book is we don't really talk about what happened
because at the end of the day, the reason we
can sit here and talk about and you know, I
can say how much I love my ex wife and
she's my best friend, is because there's no villain in
our story, right, there's.
Speaker 8 (24:45):
No bad guy.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
There's It would make a terrible Hollywood movie, right because
there's no We We both have accepted that we had
equal parts in the ending of our marriage and to
to to make it and it would take to a break.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Are there any regrets at all with you know, not
trying and giving it more? Maybe more therapy or more
not that you I'm sure you guys gave it a
ton of effort.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
I'm not saying that y'all did it at all.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I'm just saying, like, is there any you know, sleepless
nights or any regrets? Like, ah, man, I wish I
would have done this or tried this.
Speaker 7 (25:20):
I think I think one of the things that you know,
divorce couples don't realize is like we've done I'm going
to pat us on the back. We've done a really
good job of making this as easy and as like
great as we could for our son. But like, even
how when was that trip like three years ago you
took asheron that He looked at you and he said,
(25:42):
you know, Dad, this divorce is really hard. And you
know he was what fourteen, he was probably fourteen, and
you know, Ben at that point wanted to look at
him and go, you know, you're a brat, Like did
you know what we've gone through to make sure that
your life is so like the way it is now?
But I mean that, like that's one of those things
that just kind of like digs at you. Because my
(26:03):
parents are still married, they've been married for fifty two years.
Whether they should still be married or not regardless, but
they're still married. So I never had that. And so
to hear him say, you know, for him to be
able to say something like that, knowing all the work
we put in, and like the relationship that Ben and
I have and the relationship Ben's wife and I have,
and the relationship Ben has with my husband, Like, it
(26:26):
really kills a kid. And I think that's one of
the hardest things for me that I was like, that
was the number one thing I thought, I'm never I
don't ever want to do that to my kid.
Speaker 6 (26:34):
But right there is a lot I mean, that is
the one thing I don't think that. I mean, I
think I can honestly wholeheartedly say that Nick and I
tried everything to try to make the square bag fitting
a round hole. And I hate to keep on using that,
but you know, we went to therapy, you know, NICKI
(26:55):
I think she would have tried more. I think that's
fair to say, right because of the ill of this,
she would have stayed together, I think for Asher, which
I think is all the wrong reasons. And I think
his parents, you know, that's a tough decision.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
I killed you. So we're good. So literally but but
you know, I think as parents, it's like, at least.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
I had to come to the decision what I'd rather
have two parents together who are miserable, who are two
parents who are who are happy? Because what does that teach,
you know, our son about growing up in a loveless, affectionate,
less marriage.
Speaker 8 (27:37):
You know, I don't think that's a good example of
his parents.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, And you know, Mike and I kind of and
I think to like, you know, I know he joked
in the beginning, but we had kind of talked about that.
Were sometimes like in the very beginning of our situation,
I stayed because of our daughter, and it's like, eventually
it's not healthy, Like you guys said to stay just
for your kid. Now, do we want the kids to
be under one roof? Absolutely, like that's the dream white
(28:00):
picket fence goal. But if it's not healthy for either one.
And sometimes when we do joke about it, I'm like,
you would probably be happy with someone else, you know, maybe,
and you know, I mean, but I'm like, you wouldn't
have these restrictions or these boundaries or whatever, And you
know I would, I wouldn't be you know, flipping beds
(28:22):
wondered about where's this hidden phone.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
I don't know where's the phone.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
But you know, at the end of the day, we're
still you know, we're there's that love that's still there,
and that's how we know.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
We like that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
We keep fighting for our relationship. But when that love goes,
You're right, it's not it's not healthy for the kids.
And at the end of the day, it's like, that
would have killed me to NICKI if I heard that,
because I'd have been like, you have no idea, Like
this has all been for you, like for the benefit
or for you, and it's like, oh, I can't even imagine.
Like when you said that, I'm like, that must have
just stung so bad.
Speaker 6 (28:57):
It's stung in My first reaction was like Nicky said,
it's like you little s o B.
Speaker 8 (29:01):
You have no idea because I grew up in a
I grew up.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
In a high conflict divorce situation and completely different. But
then you know, then I was able to sit back
and not you know, at least in my older age,
I've tried to not react as much at first, but
think about it, and that's an empathy for him that yes,
it's not his choice.
Speaker 8 (29:19):
It would never be his choice.
Speaker 6 (29:20):
Even today, he says, you know, we get along, so well,
what's you know, what's the deal.
Speaker 8 (29:25):
So, you know, but just the.
Speaker 6 (29:26):
Logistics of having two homes, right, the logistics of forgetting
your math book at your mom's and I mean just
that that that in itself is hard. So I was
able to say, you know what, You're right, it is hard,
you know. And we live seven houses down from each other,
so if he forgets his math book, he can just
walk over and get it. But you know, so you know,
(29:47):
we we we've we've tried to make it as as
soft as the landing as possible for him, and I
think we've you know, done a pretty.
Speaker 8 (29:53):
Good job at that.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
How is that relationship with because Ben, you're remarried, we're
both you're both are married, you know, because the only
people I can think of are like our friends Kyle
and Sarah and then Kat his X where it's like
those we have these one friends that they're the only
ones I've seen that really get along as well as
I've ever seen a you know, a split family per
(30:14):
se get along with new wives, ex wives, you know,
old children, current children, and so it seems like you
guys have been able to do that.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
How it looks nice? And sometimes I'm like, man, that
just looks yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh, I just get you as a friend, and yeah,
it's easy just to be a friend. Sometimes, How did
you guys explain like the work behind that, because I'm
sure you didn't. Just like, Okay, everyone's great in friends.
So no it.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
You know, we we use the term we faked it
till we made it, and that is, you know, as
honest as we can get it.
Speaker 8 (30:46):
You know, Nikki started dating Chad or husband.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
Now we were I knew Chad he was, you know,
around when we were married, and and you know that
is a shot to the ego in itself, much less
having another man around my son is a shot.
Speaker 8 (31:03):
To the ego.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
But you know, I this just is this one thing
that I always remember. I was coaching Asher's baseball and
Nicki and Chad.
Speaker 8 (31:13):
It was the first time that I really was had
seen him around. I knew they were dating.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
But you know, after the game, Asher ran over and
gave Nicki and Chad a hug, and I remember like
walking over there going, Okay, what's best fresh, what's best fresh?
What's best fresh?
Speaker 8 (31:31):
Meanwhile, you know you know. I mean, guys like egos
just much less. I know this guy.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
Now my son's running over to him, meeting him, and
it's like and then I just put on my my
big boy pants, you know, and I put on a
fake smile. It probably was the most awkward while in
the history of the world.
Speaker 8 (31:46):
But I went over.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
The first thing I did was give Chad a hug,
and I gave Nicki a kiss, and I just made it.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
As normal as possible fresh.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
You know. And then you know, the next time it
was a little easier. The next time it's the but look,
it's still not easy today. This is fourteen years later.
Speaker 8 (32:01):
I love Chad, you.
Speaker 6 (32:02):
Know, and you know, they went down fishing in the
Keys early in summer and Asher came.
Speaker 8 (32:07):
He goes, oh, Chad and I are going fishing. My
first reaction still is like, oh, you know, it's like
a little gut punch, you know.
Speaker 6 (32:14):
Fourteen years later, we wrote a freaking book called Our
Happy Divorce.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
But it's still not matter, which, by the way, you
can get at our happydivorce dot com. There's support, you
can resources, blogs, and where you can also buy the book.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Our happydivorce dot com.
Speaker 7 (32:27):
The hardest part for me was like listening to my
son tell me that like some other woman was putting
him to bed at night, and like, uh, that was like,
you know, to a mother's heart, it's just like it's
like someone's stabbing you. But a funny Asher story was
when he before I had met Nadia, Ben's current wife,
Asher I called. I would call him every night to
(32:49):
say a night to him when he wasn't with me,
and I called over there one night and I was like,
you know, I just want to, you know, saying good
night to you, and he said, hey, mom, I said, what,
he's probably about four I have at this point, and
he said, mom, do you know Nadia? And I said, no,
I know who she is, but I you know, mommy
hasn't met Baudia yet. And he goes, well, here, I
(33:11):
think you should talk to her and he puts her
on the phone.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 7 (33:17):
But you know that was his way of saying, you
know what, there's this girl that I'm hanging out with,
that daddy's hanging out with, but I think you should
know this girl too. And he was like smart enough
to kind of go, okay, let me just just break
the ice here and let mommy really like, you know,
let them talk.
Speaker 8 (33:33):
Wow, they forced the introduction smart.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
What are some of the what are some of the
tools in the book that if our listeners are divorced, like,
what can they learn from them?
Speaker 8 (33:46):
Well?
Speaker 6 (33:46):
I think the one thing is in sports say, we're
not doctors, we're not lawyers, we're not therapists.
Speaker 8 (33:51):
We're just people with the lived experience, you know.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
And uh, you know, my lived experience was a pretty high,
like I said, a high conflict divorce.
Speaker 8 (34:00):
And just to show.
Speaker 6 (34:01):
You how big of a deal and what big.
Speaker 8 (34:05):
Emotions this was.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
When I left the house, I left angry, I left bitter,
I left pointing the finger at Nikki it was all
her fault. And I went out, and I hired this big,
fancy lawyer and was going to go down the same
path as my parents, despite having that experience, you know,
despite having that, you know, being in that toxic environment
(34:27):
and getting handed a bill, emotional bill to pay for
something I had no choice in.
Speaker 8 (34:32):
But yet I was going to do that to my
son again.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
But luckily colmer heads prevailed eventually, and I was able
to realize that I knew where that path ended and
wanted to find a different path.
Speaker 8 (34:43):
But I think the different.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
Path that we found was and this is gonna sound apathetic,
and it's gonna sound apathetic on purpose, but divorce is
just a business deal, right, You're just splitting assets, you're making,
you know, a financial thing. The problem is that it
gets mixed with every every negative emotion you could possibly have.
Speaker 8 (35:03):
And you know, the only.
Speaker 6 (35:05):
Advice that I would give people that we did, that
we did write is that we dealt with the emotional
side first. We dealt with our stuff first, individually, our
side of the street, and we both agreed. And that's
why there's no villain because we both have equal parts
in the ending of the marriage, just like we have
equal parts. And that's why when we wrote this book,
I said the only way I'm writing it was if
(35:26):
Nikki doesn't with because it takes two to make a relationship,
and it takes two to ruin a relationship. So if
any piece of advice that I can give people is
there's no prize for getting divorce the quick.
Speaker 7 (35:38):
You need to take care of your stuff before you
can take care of each other's.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
For sure. I have a question for both of you, sorry, Ben,
real quick, Nikki. I'll start with you because I'm interested
because you guys have a similar dynamic. Where like Ben,
you said you come from a divorce parents, Janna comes
from divorce parents. Nikki, My parents are like yours. My
parents have been married thirty plays years. Did you guys individually,
(36:03):
was that an added pressure? Was it like Ben more?
Were you more normalized to it so you're like, yeah,
I'll just get divorced. Nikki, did you feel more pressured
because of your parents being married so long? I'm just
curious about how that impacts.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 7 (36:15):
Mean, and I have three sisters, two like, and they're
both married, and I think that I honestly, I am
the first person in my family to get divorced, like
even like extended family, I don't think any of there's
I don't think there's anybody so and I'm the baby
of the family. So for me to like have to
go to my parents, who you know, are semi religious
(36:36):
and like, you know, believe in the thing to be
of marriage and all that stuff. But like for me
to have to go to them and say hey, by
the way, that, I think that was almost scarier than
getting divorced himself. I was scared of death.
Speaker 6 (36:50):
It's funny because it's, as you said, as it was
easier for me, and it was actually, you know, it's
like I grew up around alcohol and drug use as
a kid, and I was like, you know, and then
turned into an alcoholic and attic and luckily got over.
Speaker 8 (37:04):
That or get sober pretty young.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
But it's not something like I sought out to do, right,
I mean, it wasn't like even though even though you know,
and I told Nikki this, it's in the book, you know,
on our wedding day, I was looking at the mirror
I had hair at the time, I was doing my hair,
and I you know, it wasn't just cold feet. It
was an honest look into my soul saying you shouldn't
do this. This isn't the right you know, this isn't
(37:29):
the right thing to do. But yet I went through
and you know, we talked about those red flashing lights
and the you know, railroad tracks, and but it wasn't
even with that. It wasn't something that I ever intended
to get divorced, you know, or or ever thought that
I would.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But you know, how was the writing process Because if
you weren't divorced, then do you think you would have
because I know with Michael and I we were because
we just you know, we wrote a book and it's
we our writing styles are just very different. So it
was you know, maybe it was easier you guys being
divorced so you didn't have to write together.
Speaker 9 (38:03):
Nope, Nikki, Yeah, I mean, I can't even tell you
how many times I told Ben, I'm to stick this
book up your butt, Like how many times I'm like,
I have so many times I would call them and go,
I'm not doing your stupid book.
Speaker 6 (38:15):
But that's because we're going to fighting up because anything but.
Speaker 7 (38:19):
Two, I mean, you have to rehash a lot of
stuff when you're trying to like dig right.
Speaker 8 (38:24):
But yeah, the idea was and it's not original. I
don't know if you guys ever saw the.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
Series The Affair, Yes, and how they took one situation
and you know, each half an hour of the show
was you know, one person's perspective, and so that's the
sort of framework we took. So we alternated chapters. Uh,
And I never I read in her chapters, but I
never changed it. You know, it was her story, it
was her experience. She never changed mind, no matter what
(38:51):
I said, no matter what I did, and we just
you know, we just sort of meshed it together. But
then to show you how this sort of relationship with
Chad and Nadia, our spouses, had evolved, this was just
gonna be Nicky my book. And then, you know, because
it took so long, and NICKI, you know, I had
to go fishing for the book up my butt so
many times that the relationship had evolved so much that
(39:13):
we were like, wait a second, this happy divorce has
to include Naughty and Chad, So we had them right.
Speaker 8 (39:19):
Chapters in the book.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (39:21):
And then our son and then our son had written
an essay to get as high school acceptance or the
essay was about somebody he admired and he wrote about
his mom.
Speaker 8 (39:34):
And dad about what they've accomplished.
Speaker 6 (39:37):
And we didn't, you know, handcuff him and you know,
to the bed, make them and make him right.
Speaker 8 (39:41):
It actually did out of his own position.
Speaker 6 (39:43):
So that essay and a chapter is in the end
of the book and sort of puts a bow on
the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, that's amazing. What have you guys take since you're
both remarried, what have you guys taken into your new
marriages that you learned from being together.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
Well, I married the right person that I get, no question,
no questions like you asked if it was the right decision.
Like I look at Nicki and Chad, and Nicki never
looked at me like she looks at Chad. She never
held I mean, but the same thing's probably true with
Naughty and I mean, it just was like Nicki and
(40:20):
Chad are meant to be together. Nadia and I meant together,
And now I can see it without any anger, without
any resentment, but nothing but love, you know, I mean
nothing but love for her and for Chad, because you know,
all I got to do is, you know, be honest
with myself and swallow my ego and say, look, she never.
Speaker 8 (40:37):
Looked at me like that.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Well, we respect the hell out of you guys, because
dealing with such a topic that fifty percent of marriages
deal with. I mean, I hope everyone goes to our
Happy Divorce dot Com and does their research on how
to be an adult through this process, because yeah, this
is amazing. So thank you guys, Ben and Nikki so
much for being on the show with us.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah it's really enlightening.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
So don't forget to get their book, Our Happy divorce
and you can get that at our happydivorce dot com.
Speaker 8 (41:05):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Okay, thanks all right? Mark got an emails, BIB we do.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
Indeed, this is an anonymous emailer. My boyfriend and I've
been dating for four years. I'm twenty eight, he's almost
thirty four. After three years of dating, I expressed I
would like to get engaged. He was very adamant. He
wanted to live together first, so last the summer we
moved in together. We decided to resign the lease in
June and I said, how about a six month lease.
Is that enough time to decide if this is going
to work, because I don't want to resign if, you know,
(41:47):
not engaged. June came and went, we're still not engaged.
I expressed how this made me feel and said maybe
we need to go our separate ways. He said no, no, no, no,
no no, We'll be engaged by the end of summer.
No ring shopping, no nothing thing. End of August not engaged.
I've sat to resent him. It's really taking a toll
on a relationship. It's now mid September as I write this,
and I once again brought up the fact that maybe
(42:08):
we aren't meant to be. He says, no, no, no, no, no no,
We'll be engaged by your birthday, my birthdays in October.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
How am I supposed to believe him? We haven't done
any shopping, no discussing.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
I'm really struggling if this is meant to be or
if he's just playing with my feelings and calling my
bluff because I've given in the past two times by
staying together. I'm really struggling. I'm thinking of ending things.
I'd love to know all of your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
This reminds me of Sarah. How old is she again?
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Twenty eight?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I think?
Speaker 2 (42:35):
I mean it kind of reminds me of the Sarah
you know, Sarah Gwetski Gwski situation. My fear, though, is
that he is He's just trying to find the right time,
and then you don't want to you don't want to
blow it either. I mean, it's quarantine. It's kind of
been hard to go ring shopping. It's kind of hard
to do things. It's kind of hard to plan something
(42:55):
amazing for you.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Excuses.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I mean, maybe, but I see it more. I almost
see it more as give it, give it another six
months and just let it. I know I'm saying this
like I'm the biggest hypocrite in the world. But you
don't want to blow with something. You don't want to
blow a surprise like you don't want to you don't
wanna like, just enjoy you're twenty eight. Give it six
(43:18):
more months, that's my and then be like, hey, look
like I'm I'm getting frustrated and I need some time
to think.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
She's going to be twenty nine this month.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
She's fine. I was thirty and single. She's fine. She
can wait six more months. That's just my advice.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Don't blow it.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Don't because if he's the one, But then again, if
you're so easy to leave, maybe then he's not the
right one.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I don't think she's easy to leave, Otherwise she would
have left. I think she's just trying to force his
hand and he's calling her bluff. So she just has
to be prepared. She anonymous. You have to come to
terms with your timeline, whether it's by the end of
this year, six months from now, twelve months from now,
(44:06):
whatever it is, and that you can realistically see yourself
leaving if it doesn't happen by then, And so maybe
give him to another six months. Say Look, no, I've
said this a lot. I am leaving because I got
to move on with my life. I'm twenty I'll be
twenty nine. He's thirty four. They've been together for four years.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Sarah and Ty were together for like seven years.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Right, they also started dating at like twenty two.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
It's seven years.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Look, and but I will say what Sarah did is
she basically was like, I'm not going on the hockey.
So you have just to start saying like, I'm not
doing this right.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, That's what I'm saying. She just has to figure
out what that time is and go from there.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Okay, what's next, Christina.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
My husband recently admitted to me that he's at a
sexual attraction to another woman that we know for the
past six years. He told me he's never acted upon it,
and I do believe him. He's been brutally honest with
me and very communicative. He told me he loves me
so much that he feels satisfied with our relationship, but
still has an attraction to this person.
Speaker 5 (45:14):
We plan on entering therapy together.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
But I guess I feel like I don't know how
to move forward from here. If it's been this long
six years. It's clearly not going to go away. So
how can I ever feel confident? How can I ever
stop wondering if he's thinking about her when we're intimate together.
I appreciate any advice of both of you and how
you battle those insecurities and feeling like you're enough for
your spouse.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
That's tough.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I don't like that might just be too honest for me.
Is there such a thing I think there is? That's
a little I don't want to know. It's a little
too honest for me, Like if I told you I'm like,
I'm really attracted to my whatever it.
Speaker 5 (45:57):
Is, someone you both know for a long time.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
Yeah, that's like.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I just don't think that. But then again, that's being honest.
But then that's kind of too honest. How can I
be such a hypocrite with saying it's too honest? I
feel like that's so hypocritical.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I don't think it's hypocritical. It's like it's kind of like,
do I look fat in the stress? You know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (46:23):
But also maybe it's his way of saying I need
to say something or I might be tempted to cheat, Or.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Is it his way of fishing to see if she'll
have a threesome.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Oh of course that's where you go.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
No more, No, I'm just saying it started coming to me.
I'm like, if he's that brutally honest, does he I'm
just saying, does he have some other agenda?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I mean maybe I would.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Have to know more about about both of both of them.
I need to know more of their history. I need
to know his history. I need to talk to the guy.
Then I could figure it out.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
It's I've known like a guy that's just like very
honest and says like, all this girl's hot in front
of you know, his wife, and but it still just
feels a little too much. But if it's fine with
your partner, but obviously it's not fine for her, that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well saying someone because Okay, you and I have had
this discussion, you know, over the years, and we you
understand that there's beautiful people exist in this world, right
like it is what it is acknowledging someone like if
you say, oh, yeah, she's pretty, like what we're watching
a show or whatever. It's like, yeah, she's a pretty girl.
(47:40):
She yeah, whatever. But saying that there's sexual attraction.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yeah, that's basically saying I want to them is very different.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
And how would you feel comfortable?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Like and I don't even say that someone's attractive like
that one time when that guy came with the lost dog,
like I I got caught in that.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
But when Janna really thinks someone's attractive, she can't speak.
This was a handsome guy.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
I mean, if you want to say it, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
I mean I caught you and who was it, Sarah? Yeah,
Sarah's just swooning over this guy.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Not swooning.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
He was looking for a lost dog and we were
just helping him.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, yeah, swooning. But she says, you know, she asked,
how can I ever feel confident? How can I ever
stop wondering if he's thinking about her when we're intimate together?
If you the confidence is just well, if he told
me that he's thinking about it, like he like you said,
like he's the king of honesty, He'll tell you like
you know what I mean, like, yeah, you don't have
to wonder because he's he's gonna tell you clearly that's true. Yeah,
(48:53):
you know, now, the thing about wondering if he's thinking
of her while there intimate together that. I think that's
just something that you just kind of remind yourself to
be in the present in and not let your head
go there.
Speaker 5 (49:09):
Who knows what any of us are thinking in those moments.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Right, It's Mike's probably thinking about Marvel movies. I'm probably
Captain America. What's what's the girl's name? I mean Captain Marvel.
I'm Captain Marvel girl probably with him?
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Great? All right, well not no, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
It's that's a wrap.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
That's wrap. Love you guys, See you next week later
Find Down with Janey Kramer and Michael Coffman an I'm
her radio podcast. You know, we had to get Mark,
our producer, to make sure he was on today because
we got the juice today.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well it's I mean, I yeah, it's like unfortunate, unfortunate,
but what unfortunately comes with the unfortunate unfortunately of the
territory with.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
The unfortunate truth of the unfortunate past?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Mm hmm. Mark is like, right now.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
I'm so intrigued right now because both have kind of
smiles on your face and maybe this isn't so serious, but.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Then it.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
Seems I'm getting a serious vibe.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I was, I was.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hyperventilatingly bawling, hyper a lot of Ellie's I'm adding into this. No,
I was, I was bawling last night. And actually Mike
about five minutes before we started this goes, you know,
we've learned our lesson sharing things that are not healed,
and you know, if we don't want to talk about it,
we don't have to. And I was like, no, I'm like,
(01:12):
it's it is what it is. It's just it's unfortunate.
So do you want mean to start go for it?
So on a few days ago, I got a DM
saying that Mike cheated, and the reason why it caught
(01:39):
me off guard was because the very first time I
found out Mike cheated on me was through a DM. Sure,
so automatically I'm in freak out mode because I think
and I told my therapist that I to sout with
(02:02):
her the other day, and you know, I told her,
I was like, I almost have this weird PTSD where
I I go through my dms almost looking to see
if I'm if the truth is going to prevail in
a DM again, Like I have this like fear when
I go through my dms, but then I also have this, well,
(02:23):
I don't want to miss it, like if this is
my the sign or that it shows me again that
he cheated. So it's just said Mike cheated again. I'm sorry.
And I looked at the person's profile had zero followers, zero,
so it's like they just made this, like they just
made this account, so I reached out, which could go
(02:45):
either way.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
That could be, oh, it's just a crazy person, or
this could be legit. It kind of shows on both sides.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Of the coin exactly, And so that's where I was
kind of like stuck, and I called my friend Sarah,
who was there from me from like from D Day,
Like she's the one who told me to like look
into Mike cheating. And I center this and I was like,
what do I do? Because you know, we just got
(03:12):
freaking our book out in New York Times Bestsellers. And
I'm like, is this it's like you just said, it's
either someone is trying to mess with me and pop
this bubble and get in my head, or it's true.
And I said, and this the really sh sucky thing
about it is that my default can't go to there's
(03:34):
no way, Like That's where I told Mike last night,
like that's where it like hurts the most, where I
can't just go I trust him a thousand percent he
would never do that. And I think that's where that's
where it's stung. And that's where I'm like, am I
really going to start having this DM conversation with this
girl or whoever it was?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
And I did.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I can, so I started dming this person and again,
and I'm just like, you know, they're telling me things
that maybe could make sense or it maybe could be wrong,
you know, and I don't know. You know, she's said
a few things about his hometown. I'm like, okay, well
they can just look that up on inner the Internet.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
She said something about he's got a secret device, which
has always been a fear of mine, that maybe he
has some secret device that he talks to other people on.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So she's telling me all these things. I'm like, okay,
well that could be valid, or that could be coret,
you know. And I'm like, am I talking to just
some sad person and wherever that's just trying to make
me upset? Or is there some truth to this? And
so I sat with it for a few days before
bringing it to Mike because.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
The thing is too though. This person is saying isn't
even speaking on their behalf. They're speaking on their friend's behalf.
They're saying that their friend is the one that I'm
cheating with or whatever. This person isn't even like saying
that they're the person.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, and she's like she, you know, she's going to
be so upset with me. I just feel like you
need to know. And you know, her and Mike talk
all the time, and they think they're going to be together,
and you know, they have unprotected sex, and Mike just
says that you are, that he's just living in this
(05:26):
world of control that you've created and he's trying to
get out and all these things. I'm like, well, maybe
that's how he truly feels. And I'm like, oh my god,
and I just I'm so I just start to kind
of unravel. But I start to just be like, well,
show me the proof, because here's the deal at the
end of the day. And I've told this to Mike.
You got proof, show it to me, you know, And
(05:47):
I can't be an idiot and to not say, Okay, fine,
let's see the proof. Prove me wrong, prove you know,
prove the lie wrong. And you know, she kept saying, well,
she won't let me or she'll get so mad. She's
upset with me that I'm even saying anything to you,
but good luck. Just know that, like you're not going
to find the secret device. And I'm just like, so
(06:09):
what do I do? And this is another thing I
told them. I was like bawling last night. I was like,
I searched the freakin' house.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Oh you know, I'm like.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
For like not like the entire but I'm like looking,
I'm like, what am I doing? Like this is like
She's like, I'm going crazy, And so I went to
my therapy office or whatever and sat down with her
to talk about it before I talked to Mike about it.
And I'm like, I don't want to be looking under
the bed or going in his drawers trying to find
(06:43):
the secret device that this who knows if it's even real.
And I'm like, how do I deal with this? And
you know, because I'm like, we're coming off a high
and now this, but I can't ignore it completely, you know,
because of our history, and I can't really one thousand percent,
(07:03):
like there's not enough stuff in the bank to trust
his word one thousand percent because of this stuff with
last year, and that sucks. And I'm like, so I'm
just kind of like stuck, and you know, he's he
noticed it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, I you know, I noticed something was up with
with Jana the last couple of days, and I, you know,
I was prying the other day more and more. He
kept saying, nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong, and I just I know,
I know you just like you know me, like we
know each other. And so finally Jana was just kind
of like, well, you know, I need to I need
(07:41):
to process this with my therapist and I need to
find out some more information and figure all this out.
And so I had to, you know, and I respect
and appreciate and I affirmed Jana last night for doing
the work around this that she's done and handling the
way she has because she would have been so easy
(08:04):
for her as soon as she got this to come,
mf me and.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh, in the past, I've grabbed his phone and thrown
it across the room and shattered.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
It, right, So it was you know, So I was like,
all right, she's doing her work. I can't use that
against right now. I can't get frustrated because she's not
talking to me. So I was like, Okay, I have
to do my work now and not be codependent and
try to take on her feelings. So I was like, okay,
and how to just walk away and sit with it?
(08:32):
And you know, once she finally told me last night, man,
it like it it crushed me because it sucked, like
I feel the same as her, where I'm like, it
sucks that she can't default to trusting me. It sucks
(08:53):
that I've done what I've done in the past to
create that in a relationship. Right now, my hope is
that years down the line, you know, if something like
this happened again, she'd be able to bring it to
me and we would almost be able to like laugh
about it, you know, because there is that much trust
in the bank. But you know, I didn't fault her
(09:15):
at all for questioning me, for still trying to figure
these things out, you know. And then when she told
me she searched the house, it's just like my heart
just sank because you know, I just felt so bad,
like so bad for my wife, like to have to
that you have to feel these things, and that it's
(09:36):
a direct correlation to the things I've done in the past,
you know, And it's which it sucks, man. It's just
people like this, you know. I know, Jana's still kind
of wrapping her head around this and trying to still
gather information even though this person person and deleted that account.
(10:01):
And when you tried to.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Because Mike basically said like, let's ask for her number,
let's call her, and yeah, and they they deleted the
their account, and I you know, and I also like
sent like a thing saying like, well, I'll send the
lawyers after you this defamation and you know, or whatever
(10:24):
we could figure out because and I think the therapist
said too. She's like, unfortunately, this isn't going to be
the last time this comes up. It wasn't the first,
and that's not going to be the last, especially because
we have put our relationship out there. And here's the deal.
You know, when you go on those tabloid sites, they're like,
she hasn't he's gonna cheat again. That's different than when
(10:47):
someone says he's cheated on you, he's done it again.
He is, yeah, And it's like that makes me kind
of stop more in my tracks and to be like,
if you have the proof, just give it to me,
but don't, don't don't come on my page. And and
that's just.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
That's just wrong.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So whoever you are or that's it's just wrong and
it's mean and it's calculated, and it just feels so ugly.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
And it's tragic that somebody out there just thought that
would be funny, right, or thought there'd be fun And
do you think she'll respond like, oh my gosh, she's
responding like the the whole mindset of that is just
you know, we've talked endlessly about social media right now
and what assessed pool of the comments can be and stuff,
But really it's really depressing that somebody feels like that
(11:36):
would be a good time to try to mess with
your relationship, Like that question, why not go to Mike initially?
Did you consider before you even responded to this person?
Did you consider going to Mic right away?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Why I didn't?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And I think why he says he hopes that we
can get to that place is because usually there is
truth to something like that.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
She was.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Scared of me lying yeah, sure, which I totally understood.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I don't blame right, I mean I had, you know,
the first Instagram girl a million years ago, you know,
reached out and I was like, hey, Mike, and I did.
I was like, I just got to text a DM
saying that some girl you slept with some girl and
he's like.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
What, No, I would never.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And then I'm like, in that same breath, I was like,
can you show me some proof? And she sent messages
and I was like, then what is this?
Speaker 6 (12:31):
You know?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So it's like it's that because you know, and then
just last Christmas being like are you on anything?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And he was lying.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So it's that's the unfortunate part, and that's where we're
going to have to get to I hope that we
can get to that place of years down the line
where I can I can just go to him and
not believe it for a second.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Why do you believe him now? Just then?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I'm not trying to cause trouble, but because she vanished
like that, because she was clearly causing problems.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's not that I I don't think she fully believes
me yet I have a hard time believing it, but
I also don't. At the same time. What my therapist
helped me kind of talk about was that I brought
(13:21):
it up. He has now told me his truth. It's
now something that I can't It's not on me to
be detective or control or it's now in I honestly,
it's in God's hands where if there's the truth will
show eventually, and that truth may be that it was
(13:44):
real or that it wasn't, and over time, hopefully it
will be that it wasn't and he'll continue, you know,
he'll come to me with things or be honest and
continue to be honest, and that way I can be
more quick to trusting him. But in the season that
we've been in the last five years, unfortunately it's not.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
There that quick.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So do I believe it fully, No do I still
have a percentage of doubt a little bit, just because
I think that I'm human just have that.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Trauma from the past. I mean, this is the first situation.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Like this, and I think would also kind of put
a cherry on the top. Was the other day I
was on my Catherine's going to hear this the first
time on here. I was on my manager slash best
friend's phone and I was doing an audio recording on
her phone and she had like not many audio recordings,
(14:41):
and I just saw Mike Discovery day and I was
like what And I was like, oh my god, this
is we recorded when we confronted Mike, And like an idiot,
I listened to it, you know, and just like reliving
like all the like. It was just like it was
just heavy. But then hearing it be like no, so
(15:01):
it's just that didn't help with the emotions.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
Is there any chance?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
And I'm always looking at the bright side that this
is actually going to eventually be a positive step in
the sense that we're going to get past this And
then the next time somebody on Instagram does this, it's
not going.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
To trigger you like the last ones did.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
It's going to trigger the emotions of oh, no, another
person's trying to screw up our relationship because look here
we are giving a lot of attention to this, this
awful person on your podcast. Somebody else might try to
do it. Maybe that's going to make you trust Mike
Moore and the DMS less because we've gotten past this hurdle.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, I mean, that's the hope. Yeah, that's the hope.
Is that I mean for me, I will say it's
you know, it's nice to be in the like, it's
nice to actually be truthful, you know, you know what
I mean, Like for someone who's so used to lying
(16:01):
and being caught in a lie and being that way
so much of my life, especially in relationships and in
our marriage, you know, as much pain as I feel
and shame around the whole situation and seeing the hurt
that Janet is going through and myself feeling the pain
because of trauma from the past, the relief is, well,
(16:25):
I know the truth. I know my truth, and so
it is a relieving feeling, not having that like kicking
the gut feeling of like, oh, when's something gonna come
out that's gonna prove this right? And you know, what
and so that's for me, that's just the relief, but
I understand Jana can't have that yet, and so I'm
(16:49):
hoping again to reiterate, I'm hoping that this is just
a building block of trust, that the truth will show
itself in all its form that Jana can accept, and
then we move on to the the next time, because
like her therapist said, like you said, Mike, this probably
won't be the last time. We kind of have a
target on our backs. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So I think it's how we and you know what
my therapist is like, get a plan in place for
when this does happen next time, and you know.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Ask for the proof. But also you know.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
How he handles it too, He's like, let's call it
like no, no, I don't want to say like people
don't do it because we don't want to call you,
but I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
We wouldn't call you with our numbers, so don't and.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
We would probably you know, get some lawyers involved. So
it's not going to be a fun process.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But it's just to say hi. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So I just I think it's just one of those
things where you know, hopefully I'm always open to the
truth and to proof, but I'm not open to bullshit.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
It's tough because you can't prove a negative. As hard
as Mike would like to try and prove it to,
you can't prove he didn't do something that's so difficult
to establish. Has there been any uh, look at my messages,
look at my DMS? Or not even bothering because you
think this is a second device anyway, allegedly. Wait, what
do you mean, Like I'm saying, is he being overly
(18:18):
forthcoming with all of his private things to kind of
try to prove the negative?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I might, Yeah, he said, look look through my messages,
look through my DMS, like, I assure you nothing's happening.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
But she said he deletes them.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah right, And I was like, let's get the phone bill,
let's look at the you know what I mean, like,
give us an else on her, give us a number,
a separate account.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
I mean, it's so.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Hard to prove, and honestly, that just sounds exhausting.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It does sound exhausting.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So I just am like, Okay, I gotta I will
accept all things that I can control, and everything else
will just show its face and the truth will come
out one way or the other.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
But that's that.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
It's a bump in the road, and I think that's
all it's going to be.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Oh, I mean, yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
It was hard, but for sure, And again I know
I firmed you last night, but you were so adult
around all of this, and I just I commend the
hell out of you because that can't be easy, that
those triggers and the trauma and all of that, Like
anybody would nobody would blame you from going off and
(19:32):
shooting from the hip. And so I commend you for
the work that you did, and I think for us,
the work that we did around the situation and that
will continue to do. I think we've handled it individually
and together the best we can.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
So not a bump, it's a win.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, So thank you who ever did.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
No, thank you to whoever did that, because that just
showed that I can trust my husband.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
So thanks, but more so because you're not We're not
gonna let you. We're not gonna let you win.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
No way.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Anyways, let's take a break and shake that one off.
I love you, love you all right. All right, guys,
we're so excited about our guests today because we're on
(20:31):
opposite spectrums of them, So there's gonna be a lot
of questions.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
But I mean, yes, but also like they live our dream.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
I'm just kidding your dream. Oh my god, Stuned, there's
a whole other topic we get to talk about.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, I'm right, you guys.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
We have the amazing divorced couple Ben and Nikki, who
are the authors of our Happy Divorce.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Hi, guys, I and apparently we just found out that
this is Mike's dream, so not my dream.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
We were just talking, we were just talking about the
other day and just hypothetical, We're like, oh, we'd hope
we would be friends. Ah, I'm sorry, I'm myself hypothetically.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
I don't think anybody gets like it has the decision
to get divorced and says, okay, how are we going
to hate each other for the rest of our lives
and live our lives with you know, all this toxic
energy forever?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Right?
Speaker 6 (21:30):
It just people don't deal with the emotional side of
the divorce before they deal with the business side, you know.
So I don't think anything anybody premeditates. Let's not get
along and let's hate each other for the rest of.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Our lives, for sure, So give us us and our
listeners a little bit of your background. Do you guys
have any kids? And how long were you married and
when did you get divorced.
Speaker 7 (21:50):
We were married seven years. We have one child together,
So then Ben has two other children that I consider
mine now even though I don't have to have I
don't have to have them twenty four hours a day.
I get to send them back. We got divorisd what
when our son was about three and a half.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, So does it have anything to do with the
seven year itch at all?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
You think No?
Speaker 7 (22:13):
I think art started itching about year four.
Speaker 8 (22:16):
We just started going.
Speaker 6 (22:18):
I think our itch started before we even got married.
And I think, you know, looking back on it, we
went through every red light, every stop sign, every blinking
railroad track and just plopped through it. And we had
in our twenties at the dating in a couple of
years and it was like time, you know, it's.
Speaker 8 (22:35):
Time to get married.
Speaker 6 (22:35):
And we got married, and then we were always trying
to fit that square peg in the round hole. Instead
of realizing that it doesn't fit, we just kept on
trying to push it and make it fit. And then
we're like, Okay, well maybe we'll have a kid and
that's will make it fit, of course, and obviously would
never take that away because it's the best thing that
had happened to either of us. But you know, it
(22:56):
was one of those things that once we have our
kid and we were always our marriage was was always based.
Speaker 7 (23:00):
On quarantine for two weeks home with his mother.
Speaker 8 (23:03):
There's that, not his dad, thank god.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
But it's the if onlys our marriage was always the
if onlies, if only Nikki would do this, if only
Ben would do this, you know, and not living in
the present.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
What was y'all's conflict when you when you were married, Like,
what what eventually led y'all to, you know, to going
down the divorce option.
Speaker 7 (23:24):
I think for us, we got being in love and
loving each other mixed up and there was like we
never really had any conflict. We were just like best
friends and we were like just sort of like two
ships passing in the night where we were more like
you know, pals living together instead of like lovers.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
And then I think that, you know, again the square
peg thing is, but instead of realizing that that we
had gotten in love and loving each other confused, we
actually started getting more and more mad that that square
peg would fit in a round role and more resentful,
and so you know, at the end, it wasn't you know,
(24:04):
let's get divorced, Let's hug it out, we love each other,
Let's write a book called Our Happy Divorce. You know,
we had, you know, all the drama that you know,
marriages don't end on winning streaks, right, it's not you know,
people know, hey, you know, we had a fight last night.
Let's get married. You know it was it was years
of you know, talking about it, me moving out, me
moving back in, and then we made that decision. But
(24:27):
you know, one thing that's important in our story, in
our book is we don't really talk about what happened
because at the end of the day, the reason we
can sit here and talk about and you know, I
can say how much I love my ex wife and
she's my best friend, is because there's no villain in
our story, right, there's.
Speaker 8 (24:45):
No bad guy.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
There's It would make a terrible Hollywood movie, right because
there's no We We both have accepted that we had
equal parts in the ending of our marriage and to
to to make it and it would take to a break.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Are there any regrets at all with you know, not
trying and giving it more? Maybe more therapy or more
not that you I'm sure you guys gave it a
ton of effort.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
I'm not saying that y'all did it at all.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I'm just saying, like, is there any you know, sleepless
nights or any regrets? Like, ah, man, I wish I
would have done this or tried this.
Speaker 7 (25:20):
I think I think one of the things that you know,
divorce couples don't realize is like we've done I'm going
to pat us on the back. We've done a really
good job of making this as easy and as like
great as we could for our son. But like, even
how when was that trip like three years ago you
took asheron that He looked at you and he said,
(25:42):
you know, Dad, this divorce is really hard. And you
know he was what fourteen, he was probably fourteen, and
you know, Ben at that point wanted to look at
him and go, you know, you're a brat, Like did
you know what we've gone through to make sure that
your life is so like the way it is now?
But I mean that, like that's one of those things
that just kind of like digs at you. Because my
(26:03):
parents are still married, they've been married for fifty two years.
Whether they should still be married or not regardless, but
they're still married. So I never had that. And so
to hear him say, you know, for him to be
able to say something like that, knowing all the work
we put in, and like the relationship that Ben and
I have and the relationship Ben's wife and I have,
and the relationship Ben has with my husband, Like, it
(26:26):
really kills a kid. And I think that's one of
the hardest things for me that I was like, that
was the number one thing I thought, I'm never I
don't ever want to do that to my kid.
Speaker 6 (26:34):
But right there is a lot I mean, that is
the one thing I don't think that. I mean, I
think I can honestly wholeheartedly say that Nick and I
tried everything to try to make the square bag fitting
a round hole. And I hate to keep on using that,
but you know, we went to therapy, you know, NICKI
(26:55):
I think she would have tried more. I think that's
fair to say, right because of the ill of this,
she would have stayed together, I think for Asher, which
I think is all the wrong reasons. And I think
his parents, you know, that's a tough decision.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
I killed you. So we're good. So literally but but
you know, I think as parents, it's like, at least.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
I had to come to the decision what I'd rather
have two parents together who are miserable, who are two
parents who are who are happy? Because what does that teach,
you know, our son about growing up in a loveless, affectionate,
less marriage.
Speaker 8 (27:37):
You know, I don't think that's a good example of
his parents.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, And you know, Mike and I kind of and
I think to like, you know, I know he joked
in the beginning, but we had kind of talked about that.
Were sometimes like in the very beginning of our situation,
I stayed because of our daughter, and it's like, eventually
it's not healthy, Like you guys said to stay just
for your kid. Now, do we want the kids to
be under one roof? Absolutely, like that's the dream white
(28:00):
picket fence goal. But if it's not healthy for either one.
And sometimes when we do joke about it, I'm like,
you would probably be happy with someone else, you know, maybe,
and you know, I mean, but I'm like, you wouldn't
have these restrictions or these boundaries or whatever, And you
know I would, I wouldn't be you know, flipping beds
(28:22):
wondered about where's this hidden phone.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
I don't know where's the phone.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
But you know, at the end of the day, we're
still you know, we're there's that love that's still there,
and that's how we know.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
We like that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
We keep fighting for our relationship. But when that love goes,
You're right, it's not it's not healthy for the kids.
And at the end of the day, it's like, that
would have killed me to NICKI if I heard that,
because I'd have been like, you have no idea, Like
this has all been for you, like for the benefit
or for you, and it's like, oh, I can't even imagine.
Like when you said that, I'm like, that must have
just stung so bad.
Speaker 6 (28:57):
It's stung in My first reaction was like Nicky said,
it's like you little s o B.
Speaker 8 (29:01):
You have no idea because I grew up in a
I grew up.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
In a high conflict divorce situation and completely different. But
then you know, then I was able to sit back
and not you know, at least in my older age,
I've tried to not react as much at first, but
think about it, and that's an empathy for him that yes,
it's not his choice.
Speaker 8 (29:19):
It would never be his choice.
Speaker 6 (29:20):
Even today, he says, you know, we get along, so well,
what's you know, what's the deal.
Speaker 8 (29:25):
So, you know, but just the.
Speaker 6 (29:26):
Logistics of having two homes, right, the logistics of forgetting
your math book at your mom's and I mean just
that that that in itself is hard. So I was
able to say, you know what, You're right, it is hard,
you know. And we live seven houses down from each other,
so if he forgets his math book, he can just
walk over and get it. But you know, so you know,
(29:47):
we we we've we've tried to make it as as
soft as the landing as possible for him, and I
think we've you know, done a pretty.
Speaker 8 (29:53):
Good job at that.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
How is that relationship with because Ben, you're remarried, we're
both you're both are married, you know, because the only
people I can think of are like our friends Kyle
and Sarah and then Kat his X where it's like
those we have these one friends that they're the only
ones I've seen that really get along as well as
I've ever seen a you know, a split family per
(30:14):
se get along with new wives, ex wives, you know,
old children, current children, and so it seems like you
guys have been able to do that.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
How it looks nice? And sometimes I'm like, man, that
just looks yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh, I just get you as a friend, and yeah,
it's easy just to be a friend. Sometimes, How did
you guys explain like the work behind that, because I'm
sure you didn't. Just like, Okay, everyone's great in friends.
So no it.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
You know, we we use the term we faked it
till we made it, and that is, you know, as
honest as we can get it.
Speaker 8 (30:46):
You know, Nikki started dating Chad or husband.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
Now we were I knew Chad he was, you know,
around when we were married, and and you know that
is a shot to the ego in itself, much less
having another man around my son is a shot.
Speaker 8 (31:03):
To the ego.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
But you know, I this just is this one thing
that I always remember. I was coaching Asher's baseball and
Nicki and Chad.
Speaker 8 (31:13):
It was the first time that I really was had
seen him around. I knew they were dating.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
But you know, after the game, Asher ran over and
gave Nicki and Chad a hug, and I remember like
walking over there going, Okay, what's best fresh, what's best fresh?
What's best fresh?
Speaker 8 (31:31):
Meanwhile, you know you know. I mean, guys like egos
just much less. I know this guy.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
Now my son's running over to him, meeting him, and
it's like and then I just put on my my
big boy pants, you know, and I put on a
fake smile. It probably was the most awkward while in
the history of the world.
Speaker 8 (31:46):
But I went over.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
The first thing I did was give Chad a hug,
and I gave Nicki a kiss, and I just made it.
Speaker 8 (31:51):
As normal as possible fresh.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
You know. And then you know, the next time it
was a little easier. The next time it's the but look,
it's still not easy today. This is fourteen years later.
Speaker 8 (32:01):
I love Chad, you.
Speaker 6 (32:02):
Know, and you know, they went down fishing in the
Keys early in summer and Asher came.
Speaker 8 (32:07):
He goes, oh, Chad and I are going fishing. My
first reaction still is like, oh, you know, it's like
a little gut punch, you know.
Speaker 6 (32:14):
Fourteen years later, we wrote a freaking book called Our
Happy Divorce.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
But it's still not matter, which, by the way, you
can get at our happydivorce dot com. There's support, you
can resources, blogs, and where you can also buy the book.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Our happydivorce dot com.
Speaker 7 (32:27):
The hardest part for me was like listening to my
son tell me that like some other woman was putting
him to bed at night, and like, uh, that was like,
you know, to a mother's heart, it's just like it's
like someone's stabbing you. But a funny Asher story was
when he before I had met Nadia, Ben's current wife,
Asher I called. I would call him every night to
(32:49):
say a night to him when he wasn't with me,
and I called over there one night and I was like,
you know, I just want to, you know, saying good
night to you, and he said, hey, mom, I said, what,
he's probably about four I have at this point, and
he said, mom, do you know Nadia? And I said, no,
I know who she is, but I you know, mommy
hasn't met Baudia yet. And he goes, well, here, I
(33:11):
think you should talk to her and he puts her
on the phone.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 7 (33:17):
But you know that was his way of saying, you
know what, there's this girl that I'm hanging out with,
that daddy's hanging out with, but I think you should
know this girl too. And he was like smart enough
to kind of go, okay, let me just just break
the ice here and let mommy really like, you know,
let them talk.
Speaker 8 (33:33):
Wow, they forced the introduction smart.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
What are some of the what are some of the
tools in the book that if our listeners are divorced, like,
what can they learn from them?
Speaker 8 (33:46):
Well?
Speaker 6 (33:46):
I think the one thing is in sports say, we're
not doctors, we're not lawyers, we're not therapists.
Speaker 8 (33:51):
We're just people with the lived experience, you know.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
And uh, you know, my lived experience was a pretty high,
like I said, a high conflict divorce.
Speaker 8 (34:00):
And just to show.
Speaker 6 (34:01):
You how big of a deal and what big.
Speaker 8 (34:05):
Emotions this was.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
When I left the house, I left angry, I left bitter,
I left pointing the finger at Nikki it was all
her fault. And I went out, and I hired this big,
fancy lawyer and was going to go down the same
path as my parents, despite having that experience, you know,
despite having that, you know, being in that toxic environment
(34:27):
and getting handed a bill, emotional bill to pay for
something I had no choice in.
Speaker 8 (34:32):
But yet I was going to do that to my
son again.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
But luckily colmer heads prevailed eventually, and I was able
to realize that I knew where that path ended and
wanted to find a different path.
Speaker 8 (34:43):
But I think the different.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
Path that we found was and this is gonna sound apathetic,
and it's gonna sound apathetic on purpose, but divorce is
just a business deal, right, You're just splitting assets, you're making,
you know, a financial thing. The problem is that it
gets mixed with every every negative emotion you could possibly have.
Speaker 8 (35:03):
And you know, the only.
Speaker 6 (35:05):
Advice that I would give people that we did, that
we did write is that we dealt with the emotional
side first. We dealt with our stuff first, individually, our
side of the street, and we both agreed. And that's
why there's no villain because we both have equal parts
in the ending of the marriage, just like we have
equal parts. And that's why when we wrote this book,
I said the only way I'm writing it was if
(35:26):
Nikki doesn't with because it takes two to make a relationship,
and it takes two to ruin a relationship. So if
any piece of advice that I can give people is
there's no prize for getting divorce the quick.
Speaker 7 (35:38):
You need to take care of your stuff before you
can take care of each other's.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
For sure. I have a question for both of you, sorry, Ben,
real quick, Nikki. I'll start with you because I'm interested
because you guys have a similar dynamic. Where like Ben,
you said you come from a divorce parents, Janna comes
from divorce parents. Nikki, My parents are like yours. My
parents have been married thirty plays years. Did you guys individually,
(36:03):
was that an added pressure? Was it like Ben more?
Were you more normalized to it so you're like, yeah,
I'll just get divorced. Nikki, did you feel more pressured
because of your parents being married so long? I'm just
curious about how that impacts.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 7 (36:15):
Mean, and I have three sisters, two like, and they're
both married, and I think that I honestly, I am
the first person in my family to get divorced, like
even like extended family, I don't think any of there's
I don't think there's anybody so and I'm the baby
of the family. So for me to like have to
go to my parents, who you know, are semi religious
(36:36):
and like, you know, believe in the thing to be
of marriage and all that stuff. But like for me
to have to go to them and say hey, by
the way, that, I think that was almost scarier than
getting divorced himself. I was scared of death.
Speaker 6 (36:50):
It's funny because it's, as you said, as it was
easier for me, and it was actually, you know, it's
like I grew up around alcohol and drug use as
a kid, and I was like, you know, and then
turned into an alcoholic and attic and luckily got over.
Speaker 8 (37:04):
That or get sober pretty young.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
But it's not something like I sought out to do, right,
I mean, it wasn't like even though even though you know,
and I told Nikki this, it's in the book, you know,
on our wedding day, I was looking at the mirror
I had hair at the time, I was doing my hair,
and I you know, it wasn't just cold feet. It
was an honest look into my soul saying you shouldn't
do this. This isn't the right you know, this isn't
(37:29):
the right thing to do. But yet I went through
and you know, we talked about those red flashing lights
and the you know, railroad tracks, and but it wasn't
even with that. It wasn't something that I ever intended
to get divorced, you know, or or ever thought that
I would.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But you know, how was the writing process Because if
you weren't divorced, then do you think you would have
because I know with Michael and I we were because
we just you know, we wrote a book and it's
we our writing styles are just very different. So it
was you know, maybe it was easier you guys being
divorced so you didn't have to write together.
Speaker 9 (38:03):
Nope, Nikki, Yeah, I mean, I can't even tell you
how many times I told Ben, I'm to stick this
book up your butt, Like how many times I'm like,
I have so many times I would call them and go,
I'm not doing your stupid book.
Speaker 6 (38:15):
But that's because we're going to fighting up because anything but.
Speaker 7 (38:19):
Two, I mean, you have to rehash a lot of
stuff when you're trying to like dig right.
Speaker 8 (38:24):
But yeah, the idea was and it's not original. I
don't know if you guys ever saw the.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
Series The Affair, Yes, and how they took one situation
and you know, each half an hour of the show
was you know, one person's perspective, and so that's the
sort of framework we took. So we alternated chapters. Uh,
And I never I read in her chapters, but I
never changed it. You know, it was her story, it
was her experience. She never changed mind, no matter what
(38:51):
I said, no matter what I did, and we just
you know, we just sort of meshed it together. But
then to show you how this sort of relationship with
Chad and Nadia, our spouses, had evolved, this was just
gonna be Nicky my book. And then, you know, because
it took so long, and NICKI, you know, I had
to go fishing for the book up my butt so
many times that the relationship had evolved so much that
(39:13):
we were like, wait a second, this happy divorce has
to include Naughty and Chad, So we had them right.
Speaker 8 (39:19):
Chapters in the book.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (39:21):
And then our son and then our son had written
an essay to get as high school acceptance or the
essay was about somebody he admired and he wrote about
his mom.
Speaker 8 (39:34):
And dad about what they've accomplished.
Speaker 6 (39:37):
And we didn't, you know, handcuff him and you know,
to the bed, make them and make him right.
Speaker 8 (39:41):
It actually did out of his own position.
Speaker 6 (39:43):
So that essay and a chapter is in the end
of the book and sort of puts a bow on
the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, that's amazing. What have you guys take since you're
both remarried, what have you guys taken into your new
marriages that you learned from being together.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
Well, I married the right person that I get, no question,
no questions like you asked if it was the right decision.
Like I look at Nicki and Chad, and Nicki never
looked at me like she looks at Chad. She never
held I mean, but the same thing's probably true with
Naughty and I mean, it just was like Nicki and
(40:20):
Chad are meant to be together. Nadia and I meant together,
And now I can see it without any anger, without
any resentment, but nothing but love, you know, I mean
nothing but love for her and for Chad, because you know,
all I got to do is, you know, be honest
with myself and swallow my ego and say, look, she never.
Speaker 8 (40:37):
Looked at me like that.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Well, we respect the hell out of you guys, because
dealing with such a topic that fifty percent of marriages
deal with. I mean, I hope everyone goes to our
Happy Divorce dot Com and does their research on how
to be an adult through this process, because yeah, this
is amazing. So thank you guys, Ben and Nikki so
much for being on the show with us.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah it's really enlightening.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
So don't forget to get their book, Our Happy divorce
and you can get that at our happydivorce dot com.
Speaker 8 (41:05):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Okay, thanks all right? Mark got an emails, BIB we do.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
Indeed, this is an anonymous emailer. My boyfriend and I've
been dating for four years. I'm twenty eight, he's almost
thirty four. After three years of dating, I expressed I
would like to get engaged. He was very adamant. He
wanted to live together first, so last the summer we
moved in together. We decided to resign the lease in
June and I said, how about a six month lease.
Is that enough time to decide if this is going
to work, because I don't want to resign if, you know,
(41:47):
not engaged. June came and went, we're still not engaged.
I expressed how this made me feel and said maybe
we need to go our separate ways. He said no, no, no, no,
no no, We'll be engaged by the end of summer.
No ring shopping, no nothing thing. End of August not engaged.
I've sat to resent him. It's really taking a toll
on a relationship. It's now mid September as I write this,
and I once again brought up the fact that maybe
(42:08):
we aren't meant to be. He says, no, no, no, no, no no,
We'll be engaged by your birthday, my birthdays in October.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
How am I supposed to believe him? We haven't done
any shopping, no discussing.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
I'm really struggling if this is meant to be or
if he's just playing with my feelings and calling my
bluff because I've given in the past two times by
staying together. I'm really struggling. I'm thinking of ending things.
I'd love to know all of your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
This reminds me of Sarah. How old is she again?
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Twenty eight?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I think?
Speaker 2 (42:35):
I mean it kind of reminds me of the Sarah
you know, Sarah Gwetski Gwski situation. My fear, though, is
that he is He's just trying to find the right time,
and then you don't want to you don't want to
blow it either. I mean, it's quarantine. It's kind of
been hard to go ring shopping. It's kind of hard
to do things. It's kind of hard to plan something
(42:55):
amazing for you.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Excuses.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I mean, maybe, but I see it more. I almost
see it more as give it, give it another six
months and just let it. I know I'm saying this
like I'm the biggest hypocrite in the world. But you
don't want to blow with something. You don't want to
blow a surprise like you don't want to you don't
wanna like, just enjoy you're twenty eight. Give it six
(43:18):
more months, that's my and then be like, hey, look
like I'm I'm getting frustrated and I need some time
to think.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
She's going to be twenty nine this month.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
She's fine. I was thirty and single. She's fine. She
can wait six more months. That's just my advice.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Don't blow it.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Don't because if he's the one, But then again, if
you're so easy to leave, maybe then he's not the
right one.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I don't think she's easy to leave, Otherwise she would
have left. I think she's just trying to force his
hand and he's calling her bluff. So she just has
to be prepared. She anonymous. You have to come to
terms with your timeline, whether it's by the end of
this year, six months from now, twelve months from now,
(44:06):
whatever it is, and that you can realistically see yourself
leaving if it doesn't happen by then, And so maybe
give him to another six months. Say Look, no, I've
said this a lot. I am leaving because I got
to move on with my life. I'm twenty I'll be
twenty nine. He's thirty four. They've been together for four years.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Sarah and Ty were together for like seven years.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Right, they also started dating at like twenty two.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
It's seven years.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Look, and but I will say what Sarah did is
she basically was like, I'm not going on the hockey.
So you have just to start saying like, I'm not
doing this right.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, That's what I'm saying. She just has to figure
out what that time is and go from there.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Okay, what's next, Christina.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
My husband recently admitted to me that he's at a
sexual attraction to another woman that we know for the
past six years. He told me he's never acted upon it,
and I do believe him. He's been brutally honest with
me and very communicative. He told me he loves me
so much that he feels satisfied with our relationship, but
still has an attraction to this person.
Speaker 5 (45:14):
We plan on entering therapy together.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
But I guess I feel like I don't know how
to move forward from here. If it's been this long
six years. It's clearly not going to go away. So
how can I ever feel confident? How can I ever
stop wondering if he's thinking about her when we're intimate together.
I appreciate any advice of both of you and how
you battle those insecurities and feeling like you're enough for
your spouse.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
That's tough.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I don't like that might just be too honest for me.
Is there such a thing I think there is? That's
a little I don't want to know. It's a little
too honest for me, Like if I told you I'm like,
I'm really attracted to my whatever it.
Speaker 5 (45:57):
Is, someone you both know for a long time.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
Yeah, that's like.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I just don't think that. But then again, that's being honest.
But then that's kind of too honest. How can I
be such a hypocrite with saying it's too honest? I
feel like that's so hypocritical.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I don't think it's hypocritical. It's like it's kind of like,
do I look fat in the stress? You know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (46:23):
But also maybe it's his way of saying I need
to say something or I might be tempted to cheat, Or.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Is it his way of fishing to see if she'll
have a threesome.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Oh of course that's where you go.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
No more, No, I'm just saying it started coming to me.
I'm like, if he's that brutally honest, does he I'm
just saying, does he have some other agenda?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I mean maybe I would.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Have to know more about about both of both of them.
I need to know more of their history. I need
to know his history. I need to talk to the guy.
Then I could figure it out.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
It's I've known like a guy that's just like very
honest and says like, all this girl's hot in front
of you know, his wife, and but it still just
feels a little too much. But if it's fine with
your partner, but obviously it's not fine for her, that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well saying someone because Okay, you and I have had
this discussion, you know, over the years, and we you
understand that there's beautiful people exist in this world, right
like it is what it is acknowledging someone like if
you say, oh, yeah, she's pretty, like what we're watching
a show or whatever. It's like, yeah, she's a pretty girl.
(47:40):
She yeah, whatever. But saying that there's sexual attraction.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yeah, that's basically saying I want to them is very different.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
And how would you feel comfortable?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Like and I don't even say that someone's attractive like
that one time when that guy came with the lost dog,
like I I got caught in that.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
But when Janna really thinks someone's attractive, she can't speak.
This was a handsome guy.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
I mean, if you want to say it, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
I mean I caught you and who was it, Sarah? Yeah,
Sarah's just swooning over this guy.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Not swooning.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
He was looking for a lost dog and we were
just helping him.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, yeah, swooning. But she says, you know, she asked,
how can I ever feel confident? How can I ever
stop wondering if he's thinking about her when we're intimate together?
If you the confidence is just well, if he told
me that he's thinking about it, like he like you said,
like he's the king of honesty, He'll tell you like
you know what I mean, like, yeah, you don't have
to wonder because he's he's gonna tell you clearly that's true. Yeah,
(48:53):
you know, now, the thing about wondering if he's thinking
of her while there intimate together that. I think that's
just something that you just kind of remind yourself to
be in the present in and not let your head
go there.
Speaker 5 (49:09):
Who knows what any of us are thinking in those moments.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Right, It's Mike's probably thinking about Marvel movies. I'm probably
Captain America. What's what's the girl's name? I mean Captain Marvel.
I'm Captain Marvel girl probably with him?
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Great? All right, well not no, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
It's that's a wrap.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
That's wrap. Love you guys, See you next week later
Host
Jana Kramer
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