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October 12, 2020 52 mins

Jana receives a message that puts their entire marriage in jeopardy. As they work things out live on air, how can Mike ever fully regain Jana’s trust?

 

They relive some painful moments and open up about challenges from their past for the first time ever.

 

And we talk to a divorced couple that not only made their post-marriage relationship work, but they wrote a book together!

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Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down Michael and Radio podcast. You know, we had
to get Mark, our producer, to make sure he was
on today because we got the juice today. Well it's
I mean, I yeah, it's unfortunfortunate, unfortunate juice. But what

(00:22):
unfortunately comes with the unfortunate unfortunately of the territory, with
the unfortunate truth of the unfortunate past. Um Marcus like
excideing right now. I'm so intrigued right now because both
a kind of smiles on your face and maybe this

(00:43):
isn't so serious, but then it is. I'm getting serious vibe.
I was, I was hyperventilating, lee, bawling a lot of
ellis I'm adding into this? No, I was, I was
bawling last night. And actually Mike about five minutes before
we started this goes, you know, we've learned our lesson

(01:05):
sharing things that are not healed, and you know, if
we don't want to talk about it, we don't have to.
And I was like, no, I'm like, it's it is
what it is. It's just it's unfortunate. Um so do
I mean to start go for it? So on a

(01:26):
few days ago, Um, I got a d M saying
that Mike cheated And the reason why it caught me
off guard was because the very first time I found
out Mike cheated on me was through a d M.

(01:49):
So automatically I'm in freak out mode, um because I
think and I told my therapist I to south Or
the other day, and you know, I was told her.
I was like, I almost have this weird PTSD where
I I I go through my d ms almost looking

(02:13):
to see if I'm if the truth is going to
prevail in a d M again, Like I have this
like fear when I go through my d ms, but
then I also have this, well, I don't want to
miss it, like if this is my the sign or
that it shows me again that he cheated. So it's
just said, Mike cheated again. I'm sorry. And I looked

(02:35):
at the person's profile had zero followers, zero, so it's
like they just made this, like they just made this account.
So I reached out, which could go either way. That
could be, oh, it's just a crazy person, or this
could be legit on both sides of the court exactly.
And so that's where I was kind of like stuck.
And I called my friend Sarah, who was there from

(02:59):
me from like from D Day, like she's the one
who told me to look into Mike cheating and I
center this and I was like, what do I do?
Because you know, we just got freaking our book out
in New York Times bestsellers. And I'm like, is this
it's like you just said, it's either someone is trying
to mess with me and pop this bubble and get

(03:21):
in my head, or it's true. And I said, and
this is the really sucky thing about it is that
my default can't go to there's no way, Like that's
where I told Mike last night, like that's where it
hurts the most, where I can't just go I trust

(03:42):
him a thousand percent he would never do that. And
I think that's where that's where it's stung. And that's
where I'm like, am I really going to start having
this DM conversation with this girl or whoever it was?
And I did. I can, So I started d m
ng this person and again, and I'm just like, you know,
they're telling me things that maybe could make sense or

(04:09):
it maybe could be wrong, you know, and I don't know.
You know, she said a few things about his hometown
and I'm like, okay, well they can just look that
up on the internet. Okay. She said something about he's
got a secret device, which has always been a fear
of mine, that maybe he has some secret device that
he talks to other people on. So she's telling me

(04:29):
all these things. I'm like, okay, well that could be
valid or that could be you know, and I'm like,
am I talking to just some sad person and wherever
that's just trying to make me upset? Or is there
some truth to this? And so I sat with it
for a few days before bringing it to Mike, because
the thing is too though. This person is saying isn't

(04:50):
even speaking on their behalf. They're speaking on their friends behalf.
They're saying that their friend is the one that I'm
cheating with or whatever. So this person isn't even like
saying that they're the person. Yeah, and she's like she
you know, she's going to be so upset with me.
I just feel like you need to know. And you know,

(05:10):
her and Mike talk all the time, and they think
they're going to be together, and you know, they have
unprotected sex, and um, Mike just says that you are
that he's just living in this um world of control
that you've created and he's trying to get out and

(05:32):
all these things. I'm like, well, maybe that's how he
truly feels. And I'm like, oh my god, and I
just I'm so I just started to kind of unravel.
But I start to just be like, well, show me
the proof, because here's the deal at the end of
the day, and I've told this to Mike. You got proof,
show it to me, you know, And I can't be
an idiot and to not say, Okay, fine, let let's
see the proof. Prove me wrong, prove you know, prove

(05:54):
the lie wrong. And you know, she kept saying, well,
she won't let me or she'll get so Matt, She's
all upset with me that I'm even saying anything to you,
but good luck. Just know that, like you're not going
to find the secret device. And I'm just like, so
what do I do? And this is another thing I
told him. I was like bawling last night. I was like,
I searched the freaking house. You know, I'm like for

(06:21):
like not like the entire but I'm like I'm like looking,
I'm like what am I doing? Like this is like
She's like, I'm going crazy. And so I went to
my therapy office or whatever and sat down with her
to talk about it before I talked to Mike about it.
And I'm like, I don't want to be looking under
the bed or going in his drawers trying to find

(06:43):
the secret device that this who knows if it's even real.
And I'm like, how do I deal with this? And
you know, because I'm like, we're coming off a high
and now this, but I can't ignore it completely, you know,
because of our history, and I can't really one thousand percent,

(07:03):
like there's not enough um stuff in the bank to
trust his word one thousand percent because of this stuff
was last year and that sucks. And I'm like, so
I'm just kind of like stuck, and you know he's
he noticed it. Yeah, I you know, I noticed something
was up with with Jana the last couple of days,
and you know, I was prying the other day more

(07:27):
and more. He kept saying, nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong, and
I just I know, I know you just like you
know me, like we know each other. And so finally
Janna was just kind of like, well, you know, I
need to I need to process this with with my
therapist and I need to find out some more information
and figure all this out, and so I had to,

(07:51):
you know, and I respect and appreciate and I affirmed
Janna last night for for doing the work around this
that she's done and handling it the way she has,
because she would have been so easy for her as
soon as she got this to come, mf me and oh,
in the past, I've grabbed his phone and thrown it
across the room, shattered it. So it was you know,

(08:15):
so I was like, all right, she's doing her work.
I can't use that against right now. I can't get
frustrated because she's not talking to me. And so I
was like, Okay, I have to do my work now
and not be codependent and try to take on her feelings.
I was like, okay, and how to just walk away
and sit with it? And you know, once she finally
told me last night, man, it like it it crushed

(08:42):
me because it sucks, like I feel the same as
her where I'm like, it sucks that she can't default
to trust to me. It sucks that I've done what
I've done in the past to create that in a relationship.
Right now, My whole is that years down the line,

(09:04):
you know, if something like this happened again, she'd be
able to bring it to me and we wouldn't must
be able to like laugh about it, you know, because
there is that much trust in the bank. But you know,
I didn't fault her at all for questioning me, for
still trying to figure these things out, you know. And
then when she told me she searched to the house,
it's just like my heart just sank because you know,

(09:29):
I just felt so bad, like so bad for my wife,
like to have to that you have to feel these things,
and that it's a direct correlation to the things I've
done in the past, you know, And it's which it sucks, man.
It's just people like this, you know. I know Jana

(09:51):
still kind of wrapping her head around this and and
trying to still gather information, even this person person and
deleted that account. And when you try to because Mike
basically said like, let's ask for her number, let's call her,
and yeah, and they deleted the their account, and you know,

(10:17):
and I also like sent like a thing saying like
we'll all send the lawyers after you this defamation and
you know, or whatever we could figure out, because and
I think the therapist said too, She's like Unfortunately, this
isn't going to be the last time this comes up.
It wasn't the first, and that's not going to be
the last, especially because we have put our relationship out there.

(10:38):
And here's the deal. You know, when you go on
those tabloid sites, they're like, she isn't in. He's going
to cheat again. That's different than when someone says he's
cheated on you, he's done it again. He is, yeah,
And it's like that makes me kind of stop more
in my tracks and to be like, if you have
the proof, just give it to me, but don't, don't

(11:00):
don't come on my page. And and that's just that's
just wrong. So whoever you are or that's it's just
wrong and it's mean and it's calculated, and it just
feels so ugly and it's tragic that somebody out there
just thought that would be funny or thought there'd be

(11:22):
fun And do you think she'll respond like, oh my god,
she's responding. Like the whole mindset of that is just
you know, we've talked endlessly about social media right now
and what assesspool of the comments can be and stuff,
but really it's really depressing that somebody feels like that
would be a good time to try to mess with
your relationship, Like that question, why not go to Mike initially?

(11:43):
Did you consider before you even responded to this person?
Did you consider going to Mike right away? Why I didn't?
And I think why he says he hopes that we
can get to that place is because usually there is
truth to something like that. She was in the scared.
She was scared of me lying yeah, sure, which I

(12:04):
totally understood. M I don't blame right, I mean I had,
you know, the first Instagram girl a million years ago,
you know, reached out and I was like, hey, Mike,
and I did. I was like, I just gotta tex
and a d M saying that some girl you slept
with some girl and He's like, what, No, I would never.
And then I'm like, in that same breath, I was like,

(12:25):
can you show me some proof? And she sent messages
and I was like, then what is this? You know?
So it's like it's that because you know. And then
just last Christmas being like are you on anything? You know?
And he was lying. So it's that's the unfortunate part,
and that's where we're going to have to get to.
I hope that we can get to that place the

(12:46):
years down the line where I can I can just
go to him and not believe it for a second.
Why do you believe him now? Just then? I'm not
trying to cause trouble because she vanished like that, because
she was clearly causing problems. It's not that I I
don't think she fully believes me yet I have a

(13:08):
hard time believing it, but I also don't. At the
same time. What my therapist helped me kind of talk
about was that I brought it up. He has now
told me his truth. It's now something that I can't
It's not on me too be detective or control or

(13:32):
it's now in I honestly, it's in God's hands where
if there's the truth will show eventually and that truth
maybe that it was real or that it wasn't, And
over time, hopefully it will be that it wasn't and
he'll continue, you know, he'll come to me with things
or be honest and continue to be honest, and that

(13:54):
way I can be more quick to trusting him. But
in the season that we've been in the last five years,
unfortunately it's not there that quick. So do I believe
it fully? No, do I still have a percentage of
doubt a little bit, just because I think that I'm
human to have that trauma from the past. I mean,

(14:16):
this is the first situation like this, and I think
would also kind of put a cherry on the top.
Was the other day I was on my Katherine's going
to hear this the first time on here. Um, I
was on my manager slash best friend's phone and I
was doing an audio recording on her phone and she

(14:39):
had like not many audio recordings, and I just saw
Mike Discovery day and I was like what And I
was like, oh my god, this is we recorded when
we confronted Mike, And like an idiot, I listened to it,
you know, and just like reliving like all the like.
It was just like it was just heavy. But then
hearing and be like, no, so it's just that didn't

(15:05):
help with the emotions. Is there any chance And I'm
always looking at the bright side that this is actually
going to eventually be a positive step in the sense that, um,
we're gonna get past this, and then the next time
somebody on Instagram does this, it's not going to trigger
you like the last one's day, and it's going to
trigger the emotions of oh no, another person is trying

(15:25):
to screw up our relationship because look here we are
giving a lot of attention to this, this awful person
on your podcast. Somebody else might try to do it.
Maybe that's gonna make you trust Mike Moore and the
d M is less because we've gotten past this hurdle. Yeah,
I mean, that's the hope. Yeah, that's the hope. Is
that I mean for me, I will say it's you know,

(15:51):
it's nice to be in the like, it's nice to
actually be truthful, you know, you know what I mean,
Like for someone who's so used to lying and being
caught in a lie and and being that way so
much of my life, especially in relationships and in our marriage,
you know, as much as much pain as I feel

(16:12):
and shame around the whole situation and seeing the hurt
that Janet is going through and myself feeling the pain
because of trauma from the past, the relief is, well,
I know the truth. I know my truth, and so
it is a relieving feeling, not having that like kicking

(16:33):
the gut feeling of like when is something gonna come
out that's gonna prove this right? And you know what.
And so that's for me, that's just the relief, but
I understand Janna can't have that yet, and so I'm
hoping again to reiterate, I'm hoping that this is just
a building block of trust, that the truth will show

(16:56):
itself in all its form that Janna can accept, and
then we move on to the next time because like
her therapist, like you said, like this probably won't be
the last time. We kind of have a target on
our backs, you know what I mean. So I think
it's how we and you know where my therapist is
like get a plan in place for when this does

(17:17):
happen next time, and you know, ask for the proof.
But also you know, um how he handles it too.
He's like, let's call it like no, no, I don't
want to say like people don't do it because we
don't want to call you, um, but I mean, we
wouldn't call you with our numbers, so don't and we
would probably you know, get some lawyers involved. So it's

(17:39):
not going to be a fun process. But it's just
so I just I think it's just one of those
things where you know, hopefully I'm always open to the
truth and to proof, but I'm not open to bullshit.
It's tough because you can't prove a negative, as hard
as Mike would like to try and prove it to,

(17:59):
you can't prove he didn't do something that's so difficult
to establish. Has there been any uh, look at my messages,
look at my d M s or not even bothering
because you think this is a second device anyway, allegedly. Wait,
what do you mean, Like I'm saying, is he being
overly forthcoming with all of his private things to kind

(18:21):
of try to prove the negative? Yeah, Mike, yeah, he said,
look him, look through my messages, look through my d M. Like,
I assure you nothing happening. But she said he deletes them. Yeah, right,
And I was like, let's get the phone bill, let's
look at the you know what I mean, like, give
us an on her, give us a number, zeparate account.
I mean, it's so hard to prove, and honestly, that
just sounds exhausting. It does sound exhausting. So I just

(18:43):
I'm like, Okay, I gotta I will accept all things
that I can control, and everything else will just show
its face and the truth will come out one way
or the other. But that's that. It's a bump in
the road, and I think that's all that's going to be. Oh,

(19:06):
I mean, yeah it was. It was hard, but for sure,
and again I know affirmed you last night. But you
we're so adult around all of this, and I just
I commend the hell out of you because that can't
be easy. That there's triggers and the trauma and all
of that, Like anybody would nobody would blame you from

(19:31):
going off and shooting from the hip, and so I
commend you for the work that you did, and I
think for us, the work that we did around the
situation and that will continue to do. I think we've
handled it individually and together the best we can. So
not a bump, it's a win. Yeah. So you whoever

(19:53):
did no, thank you whoever did that, because that just
showed that I can trust my husband. So thanks, but
more so you because you're not We're not gonna we're
not gonna let you win no way. Anyways, Let's take
a break and shake that one off. I love you

(20:15):
all right. All right, guys, we're so excited about our
guests today because we're on opposite spectrums of them. So
there's gonna be a lot of questions. But I mean yes,

(20:37):
but also like they live our dream. I'm just kidding
your dream. Oh my god, there's a whole another topic
we get to talk about. Um, you guys, we have
the amazing divorced couple Benn and Nikki, who are the
authors of our Happy Divorce. Hi is I And apparently

(21:02):
we just found out that this is Mike's dreams, so
not my dream. We're just talking. We're just talking about
the other day and just hypothetical, We're like, oh, we'd
hope we would be friends. Uh, I'm sorry, yothetically. I
don't think anybody gets like, has the decision to get
divorced and says, Okay, how are we going to hate

(21:24):
each other for the rest of our lives and live
our lives with you know, all this toxic energy forever? Right.
It's just people don't deal with the emotional side of
the divorce before they deal with the business side, you know,
and think anybody premeditates let's not get along and let's
hate each other for the rest of our lives for sure.
So give us us in our listeners a little bit

(21:44):
of your background. Do you guys have any kids and
how long were you married and when did you get divorced?
We were married seven years. We have one child together,
then then has two other children that I consider mine
now even though I don't have to have I don't
have to have them twenty where hours a day. I
get to send them back. Um, we got divorced what
when our son was about three and a half. Yeah,

(22:08):
So does it have anything to do with the seven
year which at all? You think? No. I think our
probably started itching about year four and we just start going.
I think our itch started before we even got married.
And I think, you know, looking back on it, we
we went through every red light, every stop sign, every
blinking railroad track and just plopped through it. And we

(22:30):
had in our twenties at the day, in a couple
of years and it was like time, you know, it's
time to get married. And we got married. Uh, And
then we were always trying to fit that square peg
in the round hole. Instead of realizing that it doesn't fit,
we just kept on trying to push it and make
it fit. And then we're like, Okay, well maybe we'll
have a kid and that's will make it fit. Of course,

(22:50):
and obviously would never take that away because the best
thing that happened either of us. But you know, it
was one of those things that once we have our
kid and we're always our marriage was was always based
on quarantined for two weeks home with his mother. There's that.
Not not his dad, thank god, but it's the if
only our marriage was always if onlies, if only Nikki
would do this, if only been with you this, you know,

(23:12):
and not living in the in the present. What was
y'all's conflict when you when you were married, Like, what
what eventually led you all to, you know, to going
down the divorce option. I think for us, we got
being in love and loving each other mixed up and
there wasn't like we never really had any conflict. We

(23:33):
were just like best friends and we were like just
sort of like two ships passing in the night where
we were more like you know, pals living together instead
of like lovers. And then I think that, you know,
again the square peg thing is, but instead of realizing
that that we we had gotten in love and loving
each other confused, we actually started getting more and more

(23:56):
mad that that square peg would fit in around all
and more resentful. And so you know, at the end,
it wasn't you know, let's get divorced, Let's hug it out,
we love each other. Let's write a book called are
Happy Divorce. You know we had, you know, all the
drama that you know, marriages don't end on winning streaks, right,
It's not you know, people don't say, you know, we
had a fight last night, let's get married. You know

(24:17):
it was it was years uh of you know talking
about it mean moving out, me moving back in, um,
and and then we made that decision. But you know,
one thing that's important in our story and our book
is we don't really talk about what happened, um because
at the end of the day, for the reason we
can sit here and talk about and you know I

(24:39):
can say how much I love my ex wife and
she's my best friend, is because there's no villain in
our story, right, there's no bad guy. There's It would
make a terrible Hollywood movie, right because there's no we
We both have have accepted that we had equal parts
in the ending of our marriage and to true to
make it and it would take to a break it.
Are there any regrets at all with you know, UM

(25:00):
not trying and UM giving it more, UM, maybe more
therapy or more not that I'm sure you guys gave
it a ton of effort. I'm not saying that y'all
didn't at all. I'm just saying, like, is there any
you know, sleepless nights or any regrets, like, oh man,
I wish I would have done this or tried this.
I think I think one of the things that you know,

(25:23):
divorce couples don't realize is like we've done I'm gonna
passus on the back. We've done a really good job
of making this as easy and as like great as
we could for our son. But like even how when
was that trip like three years ago you took asheron?
Then he looked at you and he said, you know, Dad,
this divorce is really hard. And you know he was

(25:46):
what fourteen, he was probably fourteen, And you know, Ben,
at that point I wanted to look at him and go,
you know, there you regret, Like did you know what
we've gone through to make sure that your life is
so like the way it is now? But I mean that,
like that's one of those things that just kind of
like digs it you. Because my parents are still married,
they're they've been married for fifty two years. Whether they
should still be married or not regardless, but they're still married.

(26:11):
So I never had that. And so to hear him say,
you know, for him to be able to say something
like that, knowing all the work we put in, and
like the relationship that Ben and I have, in the
relationship Ben's wife and I have, and the relationship Ben
has with my husband, like it really kills a kid.
And I think that's one of the hardest things for
me that I was like, that was the number one

(26:32):
thing I thought, I'm never I don't ever want to
do that to my kid. But right there is a lot.
I mean, that is the one thing I don't think that.
I mean, I think I can honestly wholeheartedly say that
Nick and I tried everything to try to make the
square peg fitting around whole. Uh. And I hate to
keep on using that, but but you know, we went

(26:52):
to therapy, you know, Nikki, I think she would have
tried more. I think that's fair to say, right because
because of the guilt and of this, she would have
stayed together. I think for Asher, which I think is
all the wrong reasons. And I think his parents, uh,
you know, that's a tough decision. So we're good, literally, uh.

(27:15):
But but you know, I think his parents. It's like,
at least I had to come to the decision what
I would rather have two parents together who are miserable,
who are two parents who are part who are happy,
Because what does that teach, you know, uh, our son
about growing up in a loveless, affectionate lists marriage. You know,

(27:37):
I don't think that's a good example as parents. Yeah,
And you know, Mike and I kind of and I
think to like, you know, I know he joked in
the beginning, but we had kind of talked about that.
We're sometimes like in the very beginning of our situation,
I stayed because of our daughter, and it's like, eventually
it's not healthy, Like you guys said to stay just
for your kid. Now, do we want the kids to

(27:58):
be under one roof? Absolutely like that the dream white
picket fence goal. But if it's not healthy for either one.
And sometimes when we do joke about it, I'm like,
you would probably be happy with someone else, you know, maybe,
and you know, I mean, but I'm like, you wouldn't
have these restrictions or these boundaries or whatever, And you

(28:19):
know I would, I wouldn't be you know, flipping beads
wondered about where's this hidden phone. I don't think where,
But you know, at the end of the day, we're
still you know, we're there's that love that's still there,
and that's how we know. We like we that we
keep fighting for our relationship. But when that love goes,

(28:40):
You're right, it's not it's not healthy for the kids.
And at the end of the day, it's like, that
would have killed me to Nikki if I heard that,
because I would have been like, you have no idea,
Like this has all been for you, like for the
benefit of for you, and it's like I can't even imagine.
Like when you said that, I'm like, that must have
just stung so bad. It's stung in. My first reaction was,
like Nikki said, it's like you little s ob, you

(29:01):
have no idea because I grew up in I grew
up in a high conflict divorce UH situation and completely different.
But then you know, then I was able to sit
back and not you know, at least in my older age,
I've tried to not react as much at first but
think about it and and have empathy form that yes,
it's not his choice, it would never be his choice.
That even today he says, you know, we get along,

(29:23):
so well, what's you know, what's the deal. So, you know,
but just the logistics of having two homes, right, and
logistics of forgetting your math book at your mom's when
I mean just that that that in itself is hard.
So I was able to say, you know what, You're right,
it is hard, you know. Um. And we lived seven
houses down from each other, so if he forgets his
math book, he can just walk over and get it. Um.

(29:46):
But you know, so you know, we we we've we've
tried to make it as as soft as the landing
as possible for him, and I think we've done a
pretty good job at that. How is that relationship with
because Ben, you're remarried, we're both are married. You're both
are married, you know, because the only people I can
think of are like our friends Kyle and Sarah and
then Kat his ex, where it's like those we have

(30:06):
these one friends that they're the only ones I've seen
that really get along as well as I've ever seen
a you know, a split family per se get along
with new wives x wives, you know, old children, current children,
And so it seems like you guys have been able
to do that how it looks nice. And sometimes I'm like, man,
that just looks yeah, it's like, oh, I just get

(30:27):
you as a friend, and yeah, it's easy just to
be a friend sometimes. Um, how did you guys explain
like the work behind that, because I'm sure he didn't
just like, okay, everyone's great and friends. So no, you know,
we we used the term we faked it till we
made it, and that is uh, you know, as honest
as we can get it. You know, Nikki uh started

(30:48):
dating Chad or husband. Now we were a new Chad.
Um he was you know around when we were married,
and and you know that is a shot to the
ego in itself, much less having another man around my
son is a shot to the ego. But you know,
I this just is this one thing that I always

(31:08):
remember was coaching Asher's baseball and Nikki and Chad. It
was the first time that I really was had seen
him around. I knew they were dating, um, but you know,
after the game, Asher ran over and gave Nikki and
Chad a hug, and I remember like walking over there going, okay,
what's best fresh, what's best fresh? What's best fresh? With

(31:31):
mean while you know you know. I mean, guys like
egos just much less. I know this guy. Now my
son's running over to him, meeting them, and it's like
and then I just put on my my big boy pants,
you know, and I put on a fake smile. It
probably was the most awkward smile in the history of
the world. But I went over. The first thing I
did was give Chat a hug, and I gave Nikki
a kiss, and I just made it as normal as possible, freshing,

(31:53):
you know. And then you know, the next time it
was a little easier. The next time it's but look,
it's still not easy today. This is fourteen years later.
I loved ja uh, you know. And and you know,
they went down fishing in the Keys early in the
summer and Asher cames goes, oh, Chad and I are
going fishing. My first reaction still is like, oh, you know,
it's like a little gut punch, you know. Fourteen years later,

(32:15):
we wrote a freaking book called Are a Happy Divorce
But It's still not matter which by the way, you
can get it are Happy Divorce dot com. Their support
you can resources, blogs, um and where you can also
buy the book. Are Happy Divorce dot Com. The hardest
part for me was like listening to my son tell
me that like some other woman was putting him to
bed at night, and like, uh was like, you know,

(32:36):
to a mother's heart, it's just like it's like someone
stabbing you. But a funny Asher story was when he
before I had met Nadia, Ben's current wife, Asher I called.
I would call him every night to say a night
to him when he wasn't with me, and I called
over there one night and I was like, you know,
I just want to, you know, saying good night to you,
and he said, hey, mom, I said, what, he's probably

(32:59):
about four and I have at this point, and he said, mom,
do you know Nadia? And I said, no, I know
who she is, but I you know, Mommy hasn't met
body a yet. And he goes, well, here, I think
you should talk to her and he puts her on
the phone. Oh my god. But you know that was
his way of saying, you know what, there's this girl

(33:19):
that I'm hanging out with, that daddy's hanging out with,
but I think you should know this girl too. And
he was like smart enough to kind of go, okay,
let me just just break the ice here and let
mommy really like, you know, let them talk. Wow. He
forced the introduction, smart kid, what are some of the
what are some of the tools um in the book

(33:41):
that um if our listeners are divorced, um, like, what
can they learn from that? Well? I think the one
thing is in sports say, we're not doctors, were not lawyers,
were not therapists. We're just people with the lived experience,
you know. And uh, uh, you know, my lived experience
was a pretty high like I said, a high conflict divorce. Uh.
And just to show you how big of a deal

(34:05):
and what big emotions this was. When I left the house,
I left angry, I left bitter, I left pointing the finger, Nikki,
it was all her fault. And I went out and
I hired this big fancy lawyer. Uh, and was gonna
go down the same path as my parents, despite having
that experience, you know, despite having that uh you know,

(34:25):
being in that toxic environment and getting handed a bill,
emotional bill to pay for something I had no choice in.
But yet I was going to do that to my
son again. Um. But luckily, calmer heads prevailed eventually, and
I was able to realize that I knew where that
path ended, and wanted to find a different path. But
I think the different path that we found was and

(34:46):
this is gonna sound apathetic, and it's gonna sound apathetic
on purpose, but divorce is just a business deal, right,
You're just splitting assets, you're making, you know, a financial thing.
The problem is that it gets mixed with every re
negative emotion you could possibly have. And you know, the
only advice that I would give people that we did

(35:07):
that we did right, is that we dealt with the
emotional side first. We dealt with our stuff first, individually,
our side of the street. Um, and we both agreed,
and that's why there's no villain because we both have
equal parts in the ending of the marriage, just like
we have equal parts. And that's why when we wrote
this book, I said, the only way I'm writing it
was if Nikki doesn't with because it takes two to

(35:28):
make a relationship, and it takes to to bruin relationship.
So if any piece of advice that I can give
people is there's no prize for getting divorced quick the quick.
You need to take care of your stuff before you
can take care of each other's. For surely I have
a question for both of you. Sorry, Ben real quick, Nikki,
I'll start with you because I'm interested because you guys

(35:50):
have a similar dynamic. Where Like Ben, you said you
come from a divorce parents. Janna comes from divorce parents. Nikki.
My parents are like yours. My parents have been married
thirty play years. Did you guys individually was that an
added pressure? Was it, like Ben more? Were you more
normalized to it so you're like, yeah, I'll just get divorced. Nikki,
did you feel more pressured because of your parents being

(36:12):
married so long? I'm just curious about how that impact. Yeah.
I mean, and I have three sisters too, like and
they're both married, and I think that I honestly, I
am the first person in my family to get divorced,
like even like extended family, I don't think any of
there's I don't think there's anybody so and I'm the
baby of the family. So for me to like have

(36:32):
to go to my parents, who you know, are semi
religious and like, you know, believe in the thing to
be of marriage and all that stuff. But like for
me to have to go to them and say hey,
by the way, that, I think that was almost scarier
than getting divorced himself. I was scared of death. It's
funny because it says you said, is it was easier

(36:53):
for me? And it was actually, uh, you know, it's
like I grew up around alcohol and drug use as
a kid, and I was like, you know, and then
turned into an alcoholic and attic and luckily got over
that gets sober pretty young. But it's not something like
I sought out to do, right, I mean, it wasn't
like even though even though you know, and I told

(37:14):
Nikki this, it's in the book, you know, on our
wedding day, I was looking at the mirror. I had
a hair at the time. I was doing my hair,
and I you know, it wasn't just cold feet. It
was an honest look into my soul saying you shouldn't
do this. This isn't the right you know, this isn't
the right thing to do. But yet I went through
and you know, we're talking about those red flashing lights
and the you know, rebroad tracks and and but it

(37:36):
wasn't even with that. It wasn't something that I ever
intended to get divorced, you know, or or ever thought
that I would. But you know, how was the writing
process Because if you weren't divorced, then do you think
you would have because I know with Michael and I
we were because we just you know, we wrote a
book and it's we our writing styles are just very different.

(37:58):
So it was, you know, maybe it was easier you
guys being divorced. You have to write together. No, yah.
I mean, I can't even tell you how many times
I told Ben, I'm just stick this book up your butt,
like how many times? And I'm like, I so many
times I would call and go, I'm not doing your
stupid book. But that's because we're in a fight, not
because anything I told you too. I mean, you have

(38:20):
to rehash a lot of stuff when you're trying to
like dig for But yeah, the idea was and it's
not original. I don't know if you guys ever saw
the the series The Affair, and how they took one
situation and you know, each half and the show was,
you know, one person's perspective, and so that's the sort
of framework we took. So we alternated chapters. Uh, And

(38:44):
I never I read hers chapters, but I never changed it.
You know, it was her story, it was her experience.
She never changed mind, no matter what I said, no
matter what I did, and we just you know, we
just sort of meshed it together. But then to show
you how this sort of relationship with Chad and Nadia,
our spouses had evolved, this was just gonna be NICKI
my book and then you know, because it took so long,

(39:06):
and Nikki, you know, I had to go fishing for
the book up my butt so many times that the
relationship had involved so much that we were like, way
to say this happy divorce has to include Nadi and
chat So we had them right chapters in the book. Um,
and then our son and then our son had written
an essay to get into his high school acceptance or

(39:29):
the essay was about somebody he admired and he wrote
about his mom and dad about what they've ecoblished. We didn't,
you know, handcuff him and you know, to the bed,
make him and make him right. He actually did out
of his own policition. So that essay and a chapter
is in the end of the book and sort of
puts a bow on the whole things. Yeah, that's amazing.

(39:51):
What have you guys taken since you're both remarried, what
have you guys taken into your new marriages that you
learned from being together. Well, I married the right person,
no question, no question, like you asked if it was
the right decision, Like I looked at Nicki and Chad,
and Nicky never looked at me like she looks at Chick.

(40:13):
She never helped. I mean, but the same thing is
probably true and not, you know, I mean, it just
was like Nikki and Chad are meant to be together,
Nadia and I meant together, And now I can see
it without any anger, without any resentment, but nothing but love,
you know, I mean nothing but love for her and
for Chad, because you know, all I gotta do is
be honest with myself and swallowed my ego and say, look,

(40:36):
she never looked me like that. I love that. Well,
we respect the hell out of you guys, because dealing
with such a topic that fifty percent of marriages deal with.
I mean, I hope everyone goes to our Happy Divorce
dot Com and and does their research on how to
be an adult through this process, because yeah, this is amazing.

(40:56):
So thank you guys, Ben and Nikki so much for
being on the show with us. Yeah, really enlightening. So
don't forget to get their book, Our Happy Divorce and
you can get that at our Happy divorce dot com.
Thank you guys, very much. Thanks all right, Mark got

(41:23):
an emails, Babe, we do. Indeed, this is an anonymous emailer.
My boyfriend and I've been dating for four years. I'm
twenty eight, he's almost thirty four. After three years of dating,
I expressed I would like to get engaged. He was
very adamant. He wanted to live together first, so last
December we moved in together. We decided to resign the
lease in June and I said, how about a six
month lea. Is that enough time to decide if this

(41:44):
is gonna work, because I don't want to resign if
you know, engaged. June came and went, we're still not engaged.
I expressed how this made me feel, and said, maybe
we need to go our separate ways. No no, no no, no, no.
We'll be engaged by the end of summer, don't ring shopping,
no nothing thing. And of August not engaged. I've said
to resent him. It's really taking a toll in a relationship.

(42:05):
It's not mid September as I write this, and I
once again brought up the fact that maybe we aren't
meant to be, said no, no, no no, no, no no no.
We'll be engaged by your birthday. My birthday is in October.
How am I supposed to believe him? We haven't done
any shopping, no discussing. I'm really struggling if this is
meant to be or if he's just playing with my
feelings and calling my bluff because I've given in the
past two times by staying together. I'm really struggling. I'm

(42:25):
thinking of ending things. I'd love to know all of
your thoughts. This reminds me of Sarah. How old is
she again? I think? I mean, it kind of reminds
me of the Sarah. You know, Sarah. What'sky situation? My
fear though, is that he is He's just trying to
find the right time, and then you don't want to

(42:47):
you don't want to blow it either. I mean, it's quarantine.
It's kind of been hard to go ring shopping. It's
kind of hard to do things. It's kind of hard
to plan something amazing for you. I mean, maybe, but
I see it more. I almost see it more as
give it, give it another six months and just let it.

(43:08):
I know, I'm saying this like I'm the biggest hypocrite
in the world. But you don't want to blow with something.
You don't want to blow a surprise like you don't
want to you don't wanna like just enjoy give it
six more months, that's my and then be like, hey,
look like I'm I'm getting frustrated and I need some
time to think. She's going to be twenty nine this month.

(43:28):
She's fine. I was thirty and single. She's fine. She
can wait six more months. That's just my advice. Don't
blow it. Don't because if he's the one, But then again,
if you're so easy to leave, maybe then he's not
the right one. I don't think she's easy to leave,
Otherwise you would have left. I think she's just trying
to force his hand and he's calling her bluff. So

(43:50):
you just she just has to be prepared, she anonymous.
You have to come to terms with your timeline, whether
it's by the end of this year, six months from now,
twelve months from now, whatever it is, and that you
can realistically see yourself leaving if it doesn't happen by then,

(44:16):
and so maybe give him tell another six months. Say look, no,
I've said this a lot. I am leaving because I
got to move on with my life. I'm I'll be
twenty nine. He's thirty four. Mm hm. They they've been
together for four years. Sarah and tyre together for like
seven years, right, they also started dating at like two

(44:40):
seven years. Look, and what I will say, what Sarah
did is she basically was like, I'm not going on
the hockey. So you have just to start saying that
I'm not doing this, right, That's what I'm saying. She
just has to figure out what that time is and
go from there. Mark, I want to give the guy
the benefit of the doubt because as a guy, I

(45:00):
would have hated going ring shopping it together. I would
have hated planning it. I would have hatted talking about
it because my whole thing was I want to surprise
you in a great situation. I really want to put
my own effort into it and blow your mind and
so you'll cry like I really had it all planned
out and that's all I wanted to do it. So
I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I don't like that he keeps giving specific dates and

(45:22):
then not living up to them. That kind of sucks.
But the last thing you want is for him to
propose because you're packing your suitcase. You don't want him
to be like, Okay, fine, will you marry me? That's
the last thing you want. So I want you to
evaluate this relationship for what it is. Are you happy?
Are you having fun? Do you love being together? Is
it magic? Is it sparkled? Do you tingle when he's around? Like,

(45:46):
think of it in that sense, because if you are,
then stick around and what will be will be. But
if you're not feeling it, and from this email, I
think it might not be feeling it, maybe it's time
to move on. Regardless. I love Mark's advice. I'm just
going to call him every time something comes to m
He's gonna be like, wait, let me put your court. Okay,
go ahead, Danna, don't waste the goods. Okay, what's next? Christina,

(46:11):
My husband recently admitted to me that he's had a
sexual attraction to another woman that we know for the
past six years. He told me he's never acted upon it,
and I do believe him. He's been brutally honest with
me and very communicative. He told me he loves me
so much that he feels satisfied with our relationship, but
still has an attraction to this person. We plan on
entering therapy together, but I guess I feel like I
don't know how to move forward from here. If it's

(46:33):
been this long six years, it's clearly not going to
go away. So how can I ever feel confident? How
can I ever stop wondering if he's thinking about her
when we're intimate together. I appreciate any advice of both
of you and how you battle those insecurities and feeling
like you're enough for your spouse. That's tough. I don't

(46:53):
like that might just be too honest for me. Is
there such a thing I think there is? That's it's
a little I don't want to know. It's a little
too honest for me. Like if I told you I'm like,
I'm really attracted to my whatever someone you both know,
my friend? Yeah, Like that's like that. I just don't

(47:17):
think that. But then again, that's being honest. But then
that's kind of too too honest. How can I be
such a hypocrite with saying it's too honest? I feel
like that's so hypocritical. I don't think it's hypo critical.
It's like it's kind of like, do I look fat
in the stress? M hm? You know what I mean.
But also maybe it's his way of saying I need

(47:39):
to say something, or I might be tempted to cheat,
or is it his way of fishing to see your
show how to have a threesome. Of course that's where
you go. No, I'm just saying it started. It started
coming to me. I'm like, if he's that really honest,
does he I'm just saying, does he have some other agenda?

(48:00):
I mean, maybe we can't rule that out, because, as
we said before, guys are the worst. We are the worst.
I just I would have to know more about about
both of both of them. I would need to know
more of their history. I need to know his history.
I need to talk to the guy and then I
can figure it out. You know. It's I've I've known

(48:23):
like a guy that's just like very honest and says like,
all this girl is hot in front of you know,
his wife, and but it still just feels a little
too much. But if it's it's fine with your partner,
but obviously it's not fine for her. That's uncomfortable saying
someone because Okay, you and I have had this discussion,

(48:46):
you know, over the years, and we you understand that
there's beautiful people exist in this world, right, like it
is what it is. Acknowledging someone like if you say, oh, yeah,
she's pretty, like what we're watching a show or whatever,
it's like, yeah, she's a pretty girl. She yeah, whatever.
But saying that their sexual attraction, yeah, that's basically saying

(49:09):
I want to them is very different. And how would
you feel comfortable? Like and I don't even say that
someone's attractive like that one time when that guy came
with the lost dog, like I I got caught in that.
But when Janna really thinks someone's attractive, she can't speak.

(49:35):
This was a handsome guy. I mean, if you want
to say it, it's fine. I mean I caught you.
And who was it? Sarah? Yeah, Sarah's just swooning over
this guy, not swionning. He was looking for a lost
dog and we were just helping him swooning. But that's
all normal that happens. There are attractive people in the world,

(49:56):
like Mike said, but for him to come to it said, Look,
I gotta tell you this. I'm sexually attracted to our
friend for the past but maybe he's doing that so
he doesn't cheat. And I know where that's where that's
where a woman's brain goes, and then the man brain
goes he wants a three. So I don't see the
logic there. Why tell her that to stop him from cheating?

(50:17):
I don't get that, Like, is he warning her? Is
he saying if I if I say this to you,
you'll keep a better eye on me, right? I don't
think any guy would volunteer. No, Actually, yes, I do
think that because kind of in the same situation where
it's like, you know, I almost want you to be

(50:37):
jealous because don't you know, I don't know, you know,
maybe not for me. From a guy standpoint, my feeling
is he's clearly a world champion of honesty. So if
we're believing him about this woman, I think we have
to believe him about his feelings for you and his

(50:59):
feelings for your relate and ship. But I think we
gotta we have no choice but to trust him now, right,
because he's clearly the most honest person in the world
as far as what he's thinking when you guys are together.
I don't know. I mean that might be something you
can work out in therapy, because clearly he has damaged
the trust a little bit, just by telling you this, Yes,
but I mean that's what but she says, you know,

(51:19):
she asked, how can I ever feel confident? How can
I ever stop wondering if he's thinking about her when
we're intimate together, if you the confidence is just well,
if he told me that he's thinking about it, like
he like you said, like he's the king of honesty,
he'll tell you like you know what I mean, like
you don't have to wonder because he's he's going to
tell you clearly, you know. Now. The thing about wondering

(51:43):
if he's thinking of her while the intimate together, that
I think that's just something that you just got to
remind yourself to be in the present and not let
your head go there. Who knows what any of us
are thinking in those moments, right, It's Mike probably thinking
about Marvel movies. I'm probably Captain America. What's what's what's

(52:07):
the girl's name? I mean, Captain Marvel, I'm Captain Marvel
girl probably with him great. But and similarly, Jan is
probably thinking about, oh my gosh, there is there still
closing the dryer own. I gotta get I gotta go.
Oh shoot, Jolie, these new shoes like these are the
things that I do, And when have I ever tried

(52:31):
to rush? Sucks? All right, Well, on that note, ladies
and gentlemen, it's that's that's wrap. Um, love you guys,
See you next week. Later
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