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February 8, 2024 29 mins

If you’ve experienced trauma, you can’t run away from it, but you don’t have to live with it! Jana connects with Karena Kilcoyne, a former trial lawyer who quit her job to focus on her healing journey when traumas from her past caught up to her.
 
Karena shares her incredible story and reveals the 3 steps of how to let go of trauma.  

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
This week's Thursday Therapy, we have Karina Killcoin.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
So.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
She is a former trial lawyer who specialized in criminal defense,
including a complex white collar and civil litigation, but now
she passionately shares her own personal story of trauma and healing.
She's got a book out called Rise Above, the story
Free yourself from past trauma and create the life you want.

Speaker 4 (00:27):
Let's get her on.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hi, Hey, Karna, how are you. I'm good, Thank you,
how are you great? We're excited to have you on.
We were reading your bio before you came on. I
was like, oh, like, man, there's just like heavy, heavy, heavy,
and then obviously your book. I love what you're doing
now using your past trauma to now create the life
that you want. And you know you wrote this book,

(00:50):
and so what we'll to start with, can you fill
in our audience kind of the cliff notes of your upbringing,
because it's it's a lot. It's heavy, Yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
So when I was about twelve, my father got sentenced
to the federal penitentiary and he left behind me and
my two younger siblings and my mother, who suffered some
from some mental health issues, including depression, anxiety, and manic episodes.

(01:27):
And she didn't handle the stress and the pressure very
well of you know, being left with the kids and responsibility.
So she and I shifted roles and I started caring
for her. And we lived in a poverty stricken situation
after my father was gone, and I really had to
do a lot to survive, and that included, you know,
scraunging up change to buy food and asking strangers for

(01:49):
money to help buy food and pay bills, and we
would go without hot water and electricity. And I was,
you know, hell bent on escape, right to get away
from where I was. And when I was twenty four,
I graduate law school. Also at that same age, my
mother died of cancer. And by then she had had
my last brother, and he was only nine at the time,
so I adopted him and went on to raise him.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
What kind of cancer did your mom have? Cervical?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Were you guys by that time? What was y'all's relationship like?

Speaker 3 (02:23):
It wasn't It wasn't healed or repaired in any stretch
of the imagination. And I was really the one left
to take care of her. So even on you know,
her deathbed, it was me caring for her and we had,
you know, hospice come in. But she passed away in
my childhood bed, and there was a lot of unresolved issues,

(02:48):
especially on my end, that she wasn't really willing to
talk about even then, and it took me a long time,
you know, decades after she left for me to really
find forgiveness for her.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Well, you know, we talk a lot on this podcast
about our parents and we're all in our forties.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
Well almost, sorry, kat, you got one month.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
So I'm just gonna say, we're all in our forties,
and it's it's one thing where it's we've had challenging times,
especially with our moms, where we want them to kind
of see us and understand, but it's, I don't know,
it's almost like they don't they didn't do the work
maybe that or that we've done. So it's hard for

(03:28):
us to see and be on the same page. So
how do you go? Okay, I didn't get to say
these things to my mom, but I'm gonna do differently,
Like do you have kids?

Speaker 4 (03:41):
You have a fur baby?

Speaker 3 (03:43):
I have a fur baby, I have the brother that
I raised, and my husband has children. So I've been
I've known him a long time and I've been involved
in raising them, so I understand that you know the
mother component. And I will tell you that I think
some of this you know is generational, right. I think
you know, at some point, you know my mother, you know,

(04:03):
she was in this generation where you didn't process and
you didn't talk about and there was a lot of
shame about things. So I don't think that they knew
then what we know now, and I don't think that
they were as in tune to mental health and healing.
So I think that's one that's one thing. And I
would also say that my forgiveness for my mother came
with age and perspective, but it also came when I

(04:25):
found compassion for her and I understood her story. So
you know, I write a lot in the book about
this idea of multi generational transfer of trauma, right, And
so when I understood my mother's story that my mother
was never mothered. My mother's mother abandoned her and she
was a baby, she didn't know her mother, and her
father was an alcoholic, and she was raised until she

(04:46):
was twelve by her grandmother, who spoke no English. So
my mother had her own story and she didn't rise
above it. So for me to find forgiveness for her,
it took me finding compassion and empathy for her and
understanding that she too had a story. And so for me,
you know where does it stop? Well, I decided to
stop this multi generational transfer trauma because you know, when

(05:09):
I understand where I came from and I understand those
my people's stories, you know, I choose differently. I choose
self awareness. I choose self compassion. I choose you know,
reasoning and judgment and understanding what I had been through.
On one hand, rights as these are the facts of

(05:30):
what I've been through, but then also giving myself some
compassion for how I handled it right and lifting myself
up out of the shame of you know, what I
did wasn't shameful as a child asking people for money.
For a long time, I thought that was so shameful, right,
And now I have this compassion for myself, and that's
what really what I tried to teach and be an

(05:52):
example of to the children that I've been blessed to mother.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
Do you feel like you kind of default back into
that like survival? I mean, when you're raised with that
kind of setting, the resilience level that you have is
like astronomical, and so we I would I share some
parts of your story a little bit, not nearly to
the degree, but I wasn't able to say my dad

(06:20):
and I never had the reckoning before he passed away.
I don't think that he would ever be able to
on this side hear what I have to say, truly.
But I wonder do you find yourself, I know, the
hard rewiring, like that deep detangling of how you handle
and like at rest, do you still feel that like
in survival flight or fight or do you feel like
you've kind of gotten that settled into like a piece

(06:42):
of Is there a sense of calmness now or do
you default back to that.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
I definitely feel a sense of calmness now. But it
took me a long time. It took me years and
years of healing. And I call it a journey of
healing because that's exactly what it was. You know, it
was like two steps forward and one step back, or
one step forward two steps back because of what you're
talking about right when you're a child of trauma in
that way. And there's actually a really powerful quote and

(07:12):
one of the books that I cite in my book
Rise Above the Story, it's a Bruce Perry quote and
he says that children who are raised in these situations
are quote incubated in terror. Right. So it's like your
brain when you're that young doesn't understand what's happening. Your
full brain doesn't develop till you're in your twenties, right,
your mid twenties. And I talk a lot about the

(07:33):
science of healing in my book, and I distill a
lot of this complex brain science into one chapter in
the book because it was for me where I shifted
into healing is when I understood how my brain worked.
So to your question about you know, what do I
do and what is my default? My default is now
it is not fight or flight forever. For a long time,

(07:55):
for my whole life before this healing, it was for
sure the default. I even write about that in the book,
and I called it chicken Little mode, where I would
go around thinking that everything was bad, something bad was
going to happen, this guy was going to fall, everything
was not good. And it took me a long time
to get out of that mode. And that's all about
resetting and understanding and developing this self awareness of what

(08:16):
your brain is doing, but also for me, it was
like an entire physical, spiritual mental healing. And that's you know,
all the things that I include in the book, which
are you know, all the practices I tried, and the
meditations I did, and the journaling I did, and the
different modalities of therapy I tried. Right, So it has

(08:38):
been a long road, but I want people to know
this who are listening, Like, it is possible to reset
your default setting? It absolutely is.

Speaker 4 (09:00):
So have you ever heard of Sarah set?

Speaker 3 (09:02):
No?

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Okay, So I'm doing it next week. So I've had
some past PTSD stuff where it keeps coming up in
therapy right where my response goes to the fight or flight.
My therapist, you know, we've done the EMDR, we've done
all the things, and she's like, I really want you
to try Sarah set.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
So I'm starting.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
It was supposed to be when the whole winter snowstorm
thing happened, but I had to reschedule to the following week.
So basically what it is is you go there and
it's all about resetting your nervous system right in your brain.
So it's like your brain can't change unless your brain
sees itself. So it's you go there, it's every day
for four days and then you go back. I think
it's like two weeks after that. But you listen to

(09:40):
these like waves and they put these things on your
head essentially, and then your brain sees what the brain
kind of needs to change. And it's this whole like
science for changing your brain and helping you know, anxiety
or depression or those things that where there's a blockage
in your in your brain. It's like you can't change
the brain unless your brain sees what's the problem in

(10:03):
So interest heard of that, But yeah, I'm like I'm
at this moment, I'll do anything.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
You know what I mean, and like like block me
up in something and.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
Me too, and and thank you for telling me, because
I do love to go and try all these things.

Speaker 4 (10:15):
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Uses brain initiated sound to relax the brain and allow
it to reset, restore harmony, and free the mind from
a freeze or fight or flight state. So yeah, anyways,
go ahead.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well yeah, I mean it's interesting. It's kind of kind
of taken like like old school like sound therapy, right
and all this stuff, and like applying in a different way,
which is what I was, which was what my point
was going to be is that I love that there's
this evolution right of trauma therapy that comes from some
of these old, you know, merited, you know, old school
kind of modalities, and then they just kind of keep

(10:46):
adding on and building on and trying them. And that's
one of the things that I really talk about in
the book and I really believe in, is having the
courage to try things. I feel like healing is kind
of like a dim sum menu, right, It doesn't have
to just traditional therapy. It can be a traditional therapy
for sure has value, but it's also other can be

(11:06):
other things, and I just think that, you know, having
the courage to sometimes try those other modalities can be
really helpful.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Well, I was going to ask, so, now that you
say that you're essentially in a healed spot, do you
still deal with the trauma of you know, in therapy
or do you feel like you're kind of past dealing
with that trauma, like you've kind of gotten past it?
Or is that something that you think that you'll always
have to kind of deal with because I know, Danna,

(11:35):
like you said, you feel like you can't get past it.

Speaker 6 (11:37):
Is it something you ever get past?

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Or are you always kind of dealing with that trauma,
even if you feel like you've gotten to a healed spot.

Speaker 6 (11:46):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Absolutely, And I wouldn't say that I feel that I'm
in a healed spot. I feel like I'm in a
healing spot. And I and I recognize that because there
are there are always always You can look at them
as setbacks or you could look at them as opportunities
to learn more about yourself and uncover another layer. And

(12:10):
so I would say that for me, there is this
sense of, you know, most days I feel really good,
and yes, do I think about those past memories. Of
course they still pop up, but I find what happens
for me is is that they don't have the emotional
charge that they used to. But then I do find

(12:30):
that there are triggers, right, and also this idea of
again the self awareness of being aware of typically what
my triggers are. You know, I still have triggers around
the sense of like abandonment, right. That was a huge
story for me in my youth right and all the
way up until like my early twenties. So you know,
like when you have these triggers, being aware of what
they are and backing out of a situation for me

(12:53):
is kind of what works and processing the feeling and
understanding where it's coming from, and that yes, I still
I still go to therapy, and when I do, I
have a log of what's been bothering me. Right, I'm
a big proponent of therapy, and I'm a big proponent
of working your therapy. Right, there's none of this like

(13:15):
I mean, I'm sure your experience experiences too. Like you
don't just go in and like then they tell you
and then you go, oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
I feel good. It's like you are actually healing yourself
and they are guiding you or offering you something. So
I'm a big proponent of going into therapy and being
very honest about what has been going on with me

(13:37):
and talking through that and then you know, waiting for maybe.

Speaker 6 (13:42):
Like some insight.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
But I go in prepared and I leave knowing that
I still have work to do when I leave that office.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
What are some of your biggest tips in the book,
maybe around abandonment or past trauma that people that are
listening can go, oh, I really want to you know,
know more about that and dig it more into that
tip that you give.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
So the book is really a guidebook, right. I wrote
it because I wrote it in the way I wrote
it because I felt so overwhelmed at the thought of healing,
and I didn't know where to start. And I was
a grown adult with a successful career, and I didn't
know what to do or where to go or how
to start. So what I wanted to do in this
book was create a guidebook. And I broke down really

(14:25):
what I think these tips are talking about into like
a three step formula, and that is really like understanding.
The first one is acknowledging your trauma and the story
that you've written about yourself because of it. And two
is the second step is releasing releasing your story. And
this was like so deep for me, this level of healing,

(14:47):
because it involved so much. It was like all of
my old childhood stuff, all that inner child angst I
had in rage and resentment and anger that I was
never allowed to express as a child. So it was
a lot of that. And it was the forgiveness component, right,
this idea of like forgiving others, which is really really hard,

(15:11):
but also forgiving myself because if you're a trauma survivor,
I mean kind of the default of that is, we
somehow blame ourselves for things that happen. I did that,
I know for sure, and so I really get into
some really good ways of how to do that and
finding you know, connection back with that inner child and
like really understanding We talked about this earlier, this compassion

(15:34):
idea too, about like who you're trying to forgive. And
then the last step is releasing the story. And that's
all about flipping the script on your story, you know,
finding some kind of gratitude or a silver lining in
what happened, which then dovetailed so perfectly for me into
finding real self love. I mean, if you come from

(15:57):
a childhood of trauma like I did, and like a
lot of people out there listening, you're not You're not
incubated and unconditional love. You don't know what that is.
You're not you're not nurtured in self esteem or self confidence.
So figuring out how to get on that path of
really understanding how to love yourself and what that means

(16:19):
is you know, a big, a big, a big part
of healing.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Can I ask, and I don't know if you talk
about this in the book or not, but do you
touch on your relationship with your dad in the book.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yes, well, I talk a lot about my reason.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
Is he still with us?

Speaker 3 (16:35):
He is?

Speaker 4 (16:36):
Is he still in jail?

Speaker 2 (16:38):
No? Okay, have you guys been able to talk or
is there a relationship there?

Speaker 3 (16:45):
There? We had a moment after my mother died where
we had some conversation about the past, and I've explained
how I felt and I saw him. It was interesting,
I had it was easier for me to find compassion
and forgiveness for my father than it was for my mother.

(17:07):
But there I would say that there is a lot
about him, and a lot about a relationship, and a
lot about who he is and who I am, and
the toxicity of it all that I choose not to
have a relationship with him.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
There's something about that incarcerated piece, because I had a
former abuser that was in jail for eight plus years,
and there was that weird like, you know, he's there,
but you can't have a relationship. It was a very
strange thing. I remember writing him a letter and then
going like I have to stop this because now this
is going to be a weird trauma bonding with him

(17:47):
now in like prison or something.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
So I.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Never well, I actually I did, but I never saw
him after he got out, but I did talk to
him on the phone very briefly. But I just remember
that being just like awful as well. So I just wondered,
like how that conversation went.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting you talk about that,
that kind of thick, emotional, you know, realm of around
the around incarceration. Because I was so ashamed of that, right,
I would go through my you know, from you know,
twelve on and I wouldn't tell anybody, right, it was
so embarrassing to me. And you know, it wasn't until
years later that I found out that like one in

(18:25):
five people has had a parent incarcerated.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
But at the real life.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, So at the time though, I didn't understand that, right,
it's child brain stuff and what you're going through. But
this idea around what like incarceration, what that means. And
I remember so many different moments of you know, him
trying to to call the house, and you know, after
a while, my mom didn't want to hear it, so
she'd take the phone off the hook, right, and I

(18:51):
would think, oh my gosh, like, who's he going to call?
If he can't call us? It was like even though
I understood that he did something wrong right, something wrong
to the effect of like he broke a lawn and
he had to go to prison, there were still parts
of me, at even at a young age, that felt
so much compassion for him, Like I and my dad
was like, you know, like this strong, physically strong man,

(19:12):
and and he was, you know, a hard working businessman,
and he did you know, he checked some boxes that
were that were you know, that had value and that
had character and integrity, and then then there were other
things he did that were so so outrageously wrong. But
this idea of him being in prison, I remember most
physically though, when he got out, and I share this

(19:34):
in the book, that he showed up at our house
and we hadn't seen him, you know, in a while,
and my mother was so cold to him, and he
needed money, like he just needed money, so you know,
I have nothing, like I just got I have nothing, right,
and she she didn't even really offer him anything. And

(19:55):
I remember looking at him and feeling so sad and
like I wish I had money to give him, because
to see my father in this position or like he
had nothing, was so striking to me because I had
always known my father as somebody who you know, would
go out in the world, and he was very good
at making money. He was very shrewd and conniving, and

(20:17):
I sometimes even called him a hustler. But to see
him in this, like this state of weakness was just
so overwhelming to me. And I carried that around with
me for a long time and it really affected, like,
as you can imagine my story about money, right, Like,
when you're raised in a house like that, it's kind
of interesting about your perspective on money and poverty and

(20:38):
you know what money gets, and so it's just really
interesting what his incarceration did to me, you know, mentally
and emotionally.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
I think it's interesting too how you said you have
a little bit more forgiveness for your for your dad
over your mom, and that's just and I sit here
and I'm like, even though your dad was I know,
even though your dad had his issues, and you know,
you have you have a great this is what I know.
You have a great dad, right, And so at first
and then I look at mine and I'm kind of
sitting here like all right, yeah, I at first I

(21:21):
was very angry, but as I got older and my
resentment goes towards my mom, and it you know, same
with you, where I think maybe it started it with
your dad but then shifted to your mom, and then
I know you have your resentments, and so it's interesting
how we're I don't I don't know why, but what
is that piece? Is it because we're angry that they're
not the mother that we wanted or expected or or

(21:41):
should have had or deserved.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Or another perspective on that is I always blamed my
mom growing.

Speaker 6 (21:47):
Up because she was obviously.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
As I've gotten older, even though my dad is a
great man and he's whatever, I can now see where
he also went wrong. So I don't know if maybe
it's we just get older and we start to see
and understand more to where I don't just blame her anymore.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Well, I wondered that I was like my switch with
my dad. Yeah, I actually don't blame you.

Speaker 6 (22:09):
I think they did the obvious.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah, you know, and so it was just so easy
to just blame me, yeah, and then blame and then like.

Speaker 6 (22:16):
But he was perfect or she was perfect, blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
But then you start seeing, like when you get to
be an adult, you're like, wait a minute, Like there
were things.

Speaker 6 (22:24):
There's other things. It's not just them.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
Well that was gonna be.

Speaker 5 (22:26):
My question is is there any insight in this healing
journey that you can share for specifically? I know, like
Janna and I feel that like we're very I I
found my dad once. I can identify that my dad
was a broken kid that just didn't get loved and
heard and seen. And for some reason, I he is

(22:47):
forever like eight years old in my mind now and
that's where he lives. And I was able to move forward,
not easily, but like with a lot less heaviness.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
You know, Can we just go back to real fast?

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Remember when my dad came to the wind Down, I
was like, he will come back in the backstage and
he will start playing guitar. But he is the eight
year old little boy that didn't get the love from
his dad that said, oh, you sound so great on
the guitar. He literally he will come in after.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
He won't say we.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Did good, but he'll come in and he'll pick up
the guitar and he'll start about the guitar will be
about him because he needs that eight year old little
boy needs my grandpa Martin's love.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (23:23):
You literally like she she mapped it out and then
and then it was like a scene and he entered
stage right, and I was like, and there he is, okay.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
And now he's playing a song. Yeah, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 5 (23:32):
Do you think that have you found anything that like
maybe would be helpful for people that are in all
of our situations where it's like, why do you think
we can can we can find the compassion? Maybe for
the men, say, just because the three of us seem
to have that in common and not for our mothers.
Is it that we are the same gender, we know
the walk, we're doing the work. We feel like, I

(23:54):
don't know what it is, but I am I'm in
that right now. I'm in that season of like trying
to find this deep compassion and like coming up a
little empty sometimes. If I'm really honest with.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
You, Yeah, well, I will say from my perspective that
it was more challenging because to me, I felt that
my mother was supposed to be my protector and I
put a lot of that on her. And I don't
know necessarily that that's their overall. I mean, I just

(24:27):
feel like in my situation in my childhood, it was
that it was very traditional in that my mother stayed
home and my father went to work, right, So I
felt like, oh, my mother's supposed to be there. So
in my mind as it evolved, I felt like, oh,
she's supposed to be from what I understand or what
I know, she's my mom. She's supposed to be protecting me, right,

(24:47):
And then this I had this massive role reversal with
her where I was taking care of her at a
young age and not being cared for or mothered. So
I think that I feel like for me, what happened
was I felt so betrayed. Is if I had her
on this pedestal of what I expected of her and

(25:10):
she didn't fulfill what I needed of her, And then
it just evolved into more and more resentment because then
it was, you know, oh, now she's now she's sick,
and now she's dying, and now she's going to leave
me with all this, you know, with more responsibility, and

(25:30):
I just couldn't find it. I couldn't find any softness
towards her. And so for me, I think that it
was just I was so caught up in being so
angry at her because I really wanted her to protect me.
I wanted her to do more right. I felt like
she could have done more, and so I held her

(25:53):
to a different standard than I held my father.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yeah, the care teaming piece I gain I too too.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
For sure, to kind of wrap up someone that's listening
that obviously we all have traumas, and but what's one
hopeful thing that you want someone to get from this book.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
I would say that number one thing I want people
to know is that they're not alone in their pain
or they're suffering. I feel like so many of us
kind of take it on the chin and we suppress
the trauma and our story. We don't talk about it,
we don't want to talk about it. Then we go
through life distracted, you know, family, this, this, this jobs,
you know, zoom calls. I feel like I want people

(26:36):
to know that they're not alone. You know, it's like
seventy percent of us are going to experience trauma in
our lifetime. That's a National Council for Mental Well Being statistic.
I bet it's hired, right. So I want people to
know they're not alone in that. And two, I want
them to know that it is never too late to
do the work right. Like I think a lot of

(26:56):
people too feel like, well, yeah, I've been carrying this
around for so long. I really don't know what else
to do about it. Well, the truth is is that
you know, nobody really does. It's overwhelming. So again, what
I really want to do is create take away that
overwhelm and create a safe space where people feel seen
and heard and a place where they can express what's

(27:19):
happened to them. You know, there's a lot of places
in this book with journal prompts and places to write,
and I feel like that beginning of kind of like
unearthing that is so important and valuable. And I will
say that a big, a big thing I've heard a
lot too from people, you know who have already read
the book, is that they do all this stuff and

(27:39):
I think, wow, you know, now I know what I
want to talk to my therapist about. You know, therapy
is expensive and it's hard to get into and then
you get in there and you're like, I don't know
if I trust this person. I don't know if I
want to get into it. You dance around it, you
talk about your relationships, you talk about your job, but
you don't really get into the you know, the deep wounds. Yeah,

(27:59):
I think it's so beautiful that you know, when you
can go into a therapist and say, wow, okay, it
was really these two things that happened to me, you know,
when I was twelve and twenty that kind of had
put me in this situation where you know, I'm dating
the same person over and over again, where I'm you know,
afraid to ask for a raise or you follow my dream,

(28:20):
or you know, there's all kinds of limiting stories we
tell ourselves. So it's like understanding what they are. I
think is so hopeful right to have this self awareness
of what happened and that there's a space for you
to heal it.

Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yep, I love that well.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
Karina, thank you so much for coming on everyone, please
please please go get her. Book is called a Rise
Above the Story for yourself from past trauma and create
the life you want because you do not deserve to
be stuck there.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
You deserve to be free from it and heal and
have a beautiful life. And Karina, thank you so much
for sharing your story with us.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
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