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April 4, 2024 29 mins

We need to change the narrative about dating, especially when you feel it’s better to be with the wrong person than be alone. Jana is talking to author and comedian Lane Moore about finding joy in hanging out alone. 

Find out how to become your own best friend, because you’d never treat a friend the way you treat yourself!

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
On this week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Lane Moore. So,
she's an award winning writer, actor, comedian, musician. Her first book,
How to Be Alone If You Want To and Even
If You Don't, became an instant number one bestseller and
was praise as one of the best books of the
year by the New York Times. She's going to be
coming on the show. She's got a new ebook out
right now to talk about how to break the endless

cycle of dating mistakes.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Let's get her on. Hi. Hi everybody, Hi, how are
you doing.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm doing okay? How are you?

Speaker 3 (00:37):
I'm so good?

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Good, Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
You had a book came out that was insanely successful,
How to Be Alone, which I think is one of
the hardest things to be is alone.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
I think that's why I.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Continued to be in the most toxic of toxic relationships
because it was better than being alone.

Speaker 1 (00:57):

Speaker 2 (00:57):
So, then when I got divorced for the time, I
was like, Okay, there seems to be a pattern, and
it seems to be me and I have a problem
with being alone. And so when I was forced to
be alone, the uncomfortability was weird at first, but then
it became something that to this day, even though I'm
happily engaged in getting married again, it's I'm I'm more comfortable,

and I'm like, I like my alone time too, Like
when he does travel, I don't get that anxious feeling
like I used to. And I think a lot of
times too with the girls. I was just talking to
my best friends in Los Angeles and you know, she's like,
I'm finally happy alone, and I'm like, that's when it's
all going to click after that, because you're changing a
part of like your patterns and behaviors, and you're not

going to fall back into something bad because you just
miss someone.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
So what do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
I mean, obviously I want to talk about your new
ebook and what you have out now, but I just
think it's so important for people that struggle with that
alone like be you know, being alone, Like how did
you overcome it? And what do you think the best
tips and tools for people to get through that season?

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Is? Yeah, absolutely. And it's so funny when you said
you know you were always with somebody because it was
better than being alone. I imagined that you used air
quotes around better because it's absolutely not you know, being
with anybody.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
First, Yeah, it's not miserable. How am I miserable? And like, yeah,
it's all.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Rul But we do tell specifically there is a gendered
message also, like we especially tell women that it's better
than being alone. We put these timelines on women. You
better have a man choose you. By this age. God,
it doesn't matter who the man is. And you know,
the men get all the power, they get to choose you.
Oh my god, you've been chosen. You better go with him.
It's so so dated and so strange, and so many

of us have internalized it. I've internalized it. I'm sure
you internalize it. It's hard not to. So. You know,
when I wrote How to Be Alone, so much of
why I wrote it was I didn't have I felt
like there were all these messages about what I was
supposed to have, what we're supposed to have. We're all
supposed to have perfect families, which, by the way, you

just get randomly assigned a family you actually don't like.
If you have a great, if you come from a great, loving, wonderful,
stable family, you don't like deserve that you randomly got
like everybody deserves it, you know what I mean. But
there's all these messages that if you don't get that,
it's because you don't deserve it, something's wrong with you. You're unlovable,
and you're going to internalize that even more. And because

we don't talk about anybody who isn't lucky enough to
get randomly assigned that, you know, which was I say?
And I want to emphasize because so many of us
feel like we did something wrong if we don't have
this perfect, loving family, if we don't have these perfect,
magical friends, if we don't have this perfect partner right away.

And I had internalized that, and I was like, everywhere
I look, everybody is posting all of these like best
mom in the world, best dad in the world, best
sister in the world. We're never separated, we've never had
problems stuff on social media. I don't relate to that,
and I feel like I'm the only one. And so
so much of writing how to Be Alone and talking
about these things was at the time I hadn't read

anything or seen anything that reflected my story of experiencing
that kind of like, well, where am I supposed to go?
I don't have this foundation that everybody allegedly has and
because of that, finding out that because of that, making
friends was harder because if you don't have that foundation,
everything is screwed. It's so hard, and you have to

kind of go through all of these messages because that's
really I just really learned that that's where it all started,
was whatever messages that you got as a kid from
your family, extended family, the people in your life that
has molded your brain. And some people got very lucky,
and they got so much self esteem and confidence and believe,

you know, belief that they were worth everything, and so
then they you know a lot of times then they
only they didn't settle for anything less than everything. But
the rest of us didn't do that, and we were
set on this path or we had to uncover all
this sticky stuff. So uh. And the beautiful thing about
How to Be Alone was that when I submitted that
book to my publisher, I was genuinely terrified because I'd

never seen anybody talk about this really heavy stuff, and
I was really worried people were going to be like,
what's wrong with her? Why can't she just be normal
like us? And I still to this day, you know,
the book's been out a while now, and I still
to this day gets so many messages on Instagram from
people who are like I thought I was the only one.
I thought I was the only one who felt like this.

I didn't know anybody else felt like this. It's like
changed my life to realize other people can feel like this.
So I think that's a big part of not feeling alone, really,
I think is knowing there's other people who have walked
similar paths, and when you feel like no one has
walked your path, it's like extra alone. So part of

why I wanted to write this was, yeah, share the
things that I knew. And one of the biggest things
that I talk about in the book is really realizing
how much of what you're going through right now, the
people that you're attracting, you know, through no conscious fault
of our own, are really often based on those templates

that we had when we were really young. If we
were around people who treated us like we weren't worth anything, well,
guess what, who are we around now? People who treat
us like we're not worth anything? And it's not that
we want that, And that was something I really wanted
to dispel because there's a lot of like, there's people
out there who have kind of a toxic positivity spin

on it, and they're like, well, just get rid of them. Well,
people who had a really rough upbringing can't just get
rid of them, because that's what we're used to, that's
what we're weirdly comfortable with. We know how to deal
with not getting enough, we know how to deal with,
you know, always kind of feeling short changed, always, you
know that kind of sometimes even abuse or neglect, we

we understand it. It feels familiar, and so we kind
of don't realize the water is getting hotter and hotter
and it's burning us enough to like get out of
the water. We're kind of like, I can stay in
this a while longer. I'm really good at, you knowwithstanding this. So,
I think that so much of the work of being

able to be able to be alone, be able to
be on your own, develop a friendship with yourself is
to not hate the parts of you that are different
than what you're being told you should be. Because that
was really big for me where I was like, oh,
why am I like this? Why can't I just be
like them? Well? I had a different story than they had,

and how do we instead of judging that, how do
we have compassion for these things we went through that
you know, maybe didn't make us like other people, but
maybe made us better in some ways, maybe made us
more interesting in some ways, maybe, you know, and kind
of looking at myself the way that I would look

at a friend, Like friends of mine have been through
a lot of pain and trauma and survived a lot
of stuff. I don't look at them like, oh my god,
what a damaged freak. But like that was my kind
of internal voice, like, oh, I'm never going to not
be alone because I've survived too much. But I never
looked at other people that way. So I think a
lot of it is sitting with that discomfort, because a

lot of people, when they keep choosing, you know, they
don't want to be alone. They're avoiding it. What we're
really avoiding is that conversation with ourselves where we admit
how much pain we're in and the patterns we can't
find our way out of. Where did they start? So
it's a lot of that inner work. But you know,

I'm sure you related to this as well, when you
start to realize like, okay, but chasing this happiness, this
love from this other person that's not working, and so
you kind of hit that breaking point where you're like,
all right, I think I have to choose myself because
I keep just replaying the same pattern over and over again.

We have to like fix what's going on inside of us.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, And I think there's something so cool that you
said too, and it's it was sticking out to me,
was how you said we have the narrative that it's
better than it's better than being alone, it's better than
not having relationships. And it's like that narrative is what
I think keeps a lot of people. I know, it's
what kept me in a lot of relationships. I'm like, well,
it's better. It's better that you know then us, you know,

having a separate family and the kids being two houses
and you know, it's better. It's better than us to
saying like this is this is But I'm like, no, actually,
that was the best thing that ever happened to me,
like once I got through the really hard hard times
because it was woodbwished on like a worst enemy. And
also I love my new life so much better. It's
it's like a wild thing. But like that is what

I thought, Well, it's better than you know, it's better
than being alone and having a divorced family, because that's
also what's been embedded in our brains too, and what
we are literally supposed to or've been told to believe
that that's what it is.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
That's so much of what it is, And so much
of that book was me piecing apart all of these
ideas that I'd internalized and that we'd internalize, and looking
at really where they stem from, and you're like, oh,
this is really regressive, this is super misogynoust that like
women have to wait for the man to come and rescue,
even though a lot of women have internalized this idea

that like, oh, we just need a man, any man
that can't be right, and so how do we kind
of and the same thing with family, like you know,
I internalized like, well, you only get one family and
you don't get any boundaries, and you got to just
put up with whatever they do. Hell no, no, all
of these messages are wrong. And you know, when you
can kind of look outside yourself and say, oh, some

of the pressure I'm putting on myself I don't even
agree with.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Right, there's something so true too, And right after this
we'll go to the next things I really am excited
to talk about as well. But we were at dinner.

We were sitting at dinner and it was me and
my daughter and my son and we were just talking
about the day and Jace had said something about something
that he liked, and Julie goes, well, I don't like that.
And then Jace had kind of you know, little brother
and made like a little remark about you know, how
could you not like that? And my daughter started to
get upset. I'm like, baby, what's wrong. She's like, I
just like, I feel like sad that, like I'm the

only one that doesn't like something that like my other
friends like and Jace likes. And I'm and that's when
I'm you know, that's when she starts to feel like
she's not normal or something's wrong with her. And I
was like, no, no, baby, and I was like that
just made me think. I'm like, thank goodness, I at
least noticed that and then corrected it to be like
it's okay. I was like, you know, I love to run,
Alan doesn't love to run.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
You know.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
I'm trying to make some like and that's okay. Like
people can have different things and like you're not different
than like you just like it's like it's totally normal.
But like, as a kid, I don't think we were
ever corrected in those moments, you know.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
I my friend had to correct me the other day
where I was just like, I don't know, I really
don't like that movie. I know everybody loves it. I
think it sucks. And my friend was like, why are
you explaining why you hated this? And I was like,
I don't know, because I feel weird that everybody likes it.
I really don't like it, and I don't want to
be like negative or whatever. I just it's really not
my thing. And he was just like, it's okay, you

don't like it, and I was like, okay, oh yeah, right,
be normal, be normal, be like everybody else. Even in
so many ways, I've always been different. I've always been,
you know, march to the beat of my own drummer.
But it's so funny that even as adults, there's still
these moments that are just like everyone likes that singer

or that movie or whatever. You don't like them, what's
wrong with you? Like what? I can make my own choices.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
I almost I almost don't like the Beatles, I think
because I know everyone else likes them. So that's how
that's like my thing. Okay, you've got a new audiobook,
so it's called you're not the only one looking up
breaking the endless cycle of dating mistakes? And I just
I mean, girl, give us, give us like everything if
you can in the next like what is what do

you think the biggest cycle in the dating world is?

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Oh man, So there's so many. You know. One of
the things that we do so often is we are
just kind of ignoring these red flags because we don't
know if they're really red flags and if we're allowed
to honestly, very similar to you know, talking about your daughter.
Am I allowed to like this? Am I allowed to

hate this? Am I allowed to think? This isn't enough
for me? And so many of us are doing that
because we are told like, well, we're told mixed messages, right,
We're told from like the kind of girl boss you
deserve more. We're told the like, don't settle for that.
That's crap. He's a piece of crap. Like just this

kind of like look for any little thing that you
don't like, and it's a red flag. Everything's a red flag.
So we have that, and then we also have well
you got to give someone a chance. No one's perfect,
you don't get everything you want. So we're told these
really differing.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
Things, or at least the other one at least.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
So what I did too was well, it's not as
bad as the last one, so it's better, right, and least.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
This is great? Like yes, right. So it's like there's
all these different things about well what are and it
really that kind of thing, you know, and people being
on dating apps and kind of thinking, well, I really
wish they would do this, but they're not, and maybe
they can't offer that. I think I see so much

second guessing and so much you know, in the in
the book I talk a lot about I interview people
from you know, different ages, different backgrounds, all these things,
and have different stories from all these people about the
mistakes they kept making over and over again. And the
thing that I saw was so much second guessing and

so much second guessing of our own self worth that
I fully related to where you just start to think, well,
what am I allowed to want? What am I allowed
to need? And then also, and this is something I've
talked a lot about in in all my books and
all my work is like this idea that we we've internalized,

that idea that like we're supposed to be a chill
girl who has like no needs and is down for whatever.
And I, throughout my entire career have railed against that
because I personally think that women are almost always settling anyway.
You know, every woman that I've met, everyone that I've

talked to, is already like you know, you talk to
so many men and they're just like, it doesn't matter
who they are, what they're bringing to the table. So
many so I'll give some added context here. I do
a comedy show called Tinder Live, where I like go
on my Tinder and I swipe through the worst, most
chaotic profiles. And I've been doing it a long time,

and the number of men's profiles that I see that
are like, first of all, you better be a ten.
You better shave every single thirty seconds. No kids, no fed.
He's like this list of demands while he's bringing we
have no idea what he's bringing to the table. And
there's so many men who have this like wild confidence.

Even if he looks like a thumb, it doesn't matter,
you know, and has like three dollars to his name.
He still has this list of demands and you better
bring it if you want whatever he's offering, which I
think is like a pulse. And then women are like,
well I would kind of like this, but if he
doesn't have it, it's okay. Like we're so used to
telling ourselves to not be too picky, not want too much,

so I you know, that's and that's just so much
of what I saw when I was talking to people
where they're like, well, he did this thing. I thought
it was kind of scary, but maybe it wasn't, you know.
And I think that's so much of what and it
doesn't have to be as extreme as that, but like
that was kind of disappointing or I kind of wish
he'd done this, but oh well, And that's where it starts.

That's sort of like we're settling from the beginning because
we don't want to be alone, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Right, But I also think too, like I I definitely know,
and I've said this publicly many times, Like I know
I settled in my last relationship because I was almost
thirty one years old. I wanted to have a family. Yeah,
he cheated on me, but it's okay. I've made mistakes
to in my past like it's fine, like he won't
do it again.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well, you know.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
So for me, it was one of those things where
this next go around when I started dating, like I
just will not settle because there I'm fine now being alone,
Like I'm I'm totally fine now. I know there's not
a perfect person, but I'm not going to go ooh.
I didn't really like the flags or the settling, like
there's just there's just zero point, like why I've got

two beautiful children.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
I'm you know, I'm good being alone.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
And so I do think, like I have a few
girlfriends that are younger and they're like, well, this guy
like sent me this video of the I'm like no,
I'm like and I always compare and not you know,
to say, like Alan, my fiance is a unicorn, but
he is he is incredible, Like he's an incredible man.
He loves me fiercely, and how he shows up is
everything I could have. I didn't even think men like

that existed. And it's like that like some of these
guys out there, I'm like, why would you expect? Why
would you It's like it's a mind blowing because I'm
like I am I was that girl to be like, well,
it's not that bad, right, I'm like no, it's actually
really bad, Like he should not be sending you videos
of him like doing disgusting things with x Y And
I'm like no, like that's not a man I don't know.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
And so it was just like it's so hard.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
To like be on the flip side of it too, going, girl, no,
you can do so much better than that, like, don't
just settle because you just want to be a relationship
or have kids.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
So but the timeline with us too, though, is difficult.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Right because it's so and we've also we've internalized this
idea that like, well, you never know what your soulmate's
going to be, like maybe he loves everything you hate.
And it's like, wait, what, I find that hard to believe,
Like we wouldn't do that when it comes to our friends,
Like how many friends do you have like close friends
who like are wildly opposite and you have almost nothing

in common. But we have kind of internalized that, like, well, okay,
there's a lot of red flags here to me, but
maybe that is him. Because we do see these romantic
comedies where it's like, oh I hated him at first.
He was the worst man I'd ever met. That he
was my soulmate, what I guess, But like I think
we you know, like, yeah, that happens sometimes that's your soulmate.

But I feel like it's like being struck by lightning.
That's probably not your soulmate. Is somebody who you think sucks.
But I think that all of these things, you know, contribute,
and the timeline of it. Women feel like, oh, I'm
running out of time. I should have this, and the
cycle of comparison of like, well, my friends have already

found people, but like, you know, one thing that I
really want to note and that I talk about in
this book as well, is like some of those people
might divorce. You don't know if their relationships are good,
your comparisons, Like all my friends have people, Well, how
good are their relationships? And really look at them, and
do your friends have a good relationship? Is that a

relationship you'd want? Again, just kind of looking at the
sure that we're putting on ourselves, I'm you know, it's
so important to me to remind people that I do
think that if you are meant to have a soulmate,
if you're meant to have that love relationship, which I
think most of us are. It'll happen even if you

set standards, even if you say no such a point,
nothing that's meant for you will miss you. I really
believe that. So if you see that guy sending those
videos and you're like, ough, not for me, He's not
for you. And it's something I wish I knew so
much sooner, you know, which is so much of my
work where I'm just like, how can I spare other
people the stuff it took me so long to learn?

Speaker 3 (21:40):
You know, no totally.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
But it almost seems like everyone should read your first
book book How to Be Alone, to then be able
to now go, okay, you'll be a little bit more
equipped and not as hungry for the relationship if you
know how to be alone totally.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Well, and it's so and then I actually, so this
is my third book. My second book came out almost
a year ago, called You Will Find Your People How
to Make Meaningful Friendships as an adult. Because that's good,
and I would say, because well, once you start, once
you know, once I'd written how to Be Alone, I
was like, oh, I'm in a better place to like

make better friends. And then I realized that's hard as
hell too, but you have to unpack all this other stuff.
But I will say that, you know, having a really
great friend group is also such a great thing to
be able to have when you're dating. Because for a
lot of my dating life, and I don't know if
you had this too, I didn't have really great friends.

So I was kind of looking and so many of
us do this. I was looking for my romantic partner
to be like everything.

Speaker 3 (22:48):

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well, what I blame myself for not having good friends
is because I put my boyfriend above any friend pretty
much for the longest of times ever. So it's that
was always my issue of of course the greatest of friendships,
because I was like, what do you want to do
this person like above above them?

Speaker 1 (23:04):
So but again, you know, and I like, I talk
about this in that book as well, where like we
are taught to put friendships underneath romantic relationships. They're not
as good. You're supposed to save all of your energy
for this perfect partner who's going to complete you. You
actually don't need these friends. Friends are just you know,
what you have before you meet your partner. That's so

flawed because if anything goes wrong, with that relationship, you
don't have anybody to talk to about it. Now you're
in this bubble where it's just you and this other person.
If you can't see clearly, you're gonna stay in that
relationship so much longer. So I think it's it really
is this hierarchy of like you have to get be
okay with being by yourself, really shore up those friendships

because also the biggest thing that I learned when I
started having better friendships is it was harder for me
to set up because I was like, the friends that
I have in my life are bringing me this incredible energy,
this incredible love, this effort, They're bringing all the stuff
that I would want from a partner. Now, if somebody

comes along in my dating life and they're not giving
me that, please, I already see that this exists in
my friendship. If you can't be as good as my friends, yeah,
I don't need it. I don't need it.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
What do you think are the biggest red flags like
in dating that our listeners should go? Okay, wait a
minute now, she said, this is a big flag. I
gotta be careful with this one.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
So it's so funny because it's so hard to know,
because there are some red flags that I don't think
are necessarily red flags. A lot of people talk about
as being red flags, But the biggest one, I would say,
because sometimes they'll like, never trust this. There could be
another side to that where that person's not necessarily the worst.

What I will say the biggest red flag. And this
is so true for me looking back, noticing how you
actually feel around them. If you don't feel good around them,
that is a red flag. And I say that might
sound simple, but if you're used to we are so

socialized to not listen to ourselves, to second guess ourselves,
to tell ourselves, you know, we're being too needy, too picky,
too much of this. We're not, you know, just let
it happen, let it unfold. Meanwhile, we're feeling really bad
in this situation. We're feeling you know, uneasy about it,

and we tell ourselves that that's just because we've been
through some hardships, some pain, some trauma. I don't think so.
I think that when you know when it is a
good person, they're like a good person for you. They
make you feel pretty at ease most of the time,
even if you have a lot of anxiety which I do.

Even if you have an anxious attachment, which I talk
a lot about attachment styles and things like that. You know,
when we have those struggles, we tell ourselves that, well,
everyone's making us feel uneasy. It's just us, it's just me.
I don't believe that, I really think, and that's not
saying that anybody who makes you, you know, feel a
little bit anxious cut and run. I think there are

conversations that can be had, but I think that you know,
looking really looking at how somebody makes you feel, and
you can verbalize those things. And so then I guess
that brings me to the next red flag, which would
be if they're not willing to give you what you'd need.
And I say that because in so many of my relationships,

friendships otherwise that I've had, I've told people, Hey, I
really need consistency from somebody. I want to know that
when you say you're going to do something, you actually
do it, follow through. All that stuff is so important
to me to feel like I can trust somebody.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Words and actions need to match.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Words and actions need to match. But you know, some
people will be like, oh my god, totally yeah, I'll
do it, and then they don't do it, and I
would feel so crazy and I would be like, well,
people are human. Sometimes they're going to mess up. And
you start to second guess yourself and think that you
don't deserve consistency, you don't deserve words and actions matching up,

and you do. And I think it's you know, it's
hard because we don't want to throw the baby out
with the bath water. We don't want to, you know,
detonate an entire relationship just because of this. But again
that goes back to the like, how does this make
you feel when you've asked for something and told them
why you need it, that you need it, and they're

okay with letting you down. Why are you okay with
that with somebody who doesn't care. If you are now
feeling extra anxious, extra discounted.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
They should come to you and go, how can I
help you with this? Instead of add more to it,
don't add more layers onto.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
It, right, And even if that's hard for them, you know,
if they get distracted or whatever. I know, man, I
have a bunch of reminders on my phone, Like if
you really love somebody and you know they need that,
calendar reminders, phone reminders, I don't know, like you either
think somebody is worth it or you don't. Yeah, that's
really it, And then why are you okay with being

somebody who clearly doesn't think you're worth it? Lane?

Speaker 2 (28:41):
I just enjoy everything you're doing. Thank you for coming
on the show. Can you let our listeners know where
they can find you and everything that you're up to.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yeah, so I'm at Hello Lane Moore on Instagram and
Twitter and TikTok and all the things. You can find
all of my books and tour dates. I do Tender
Life every single month in New York City and I
tour the country with it, coming out to La soon.
That's at lanemore dot org. And yeah, you can find

all the links for my books and stuff like that.
And I have a podcast as well called I thought
it was just me that talks about all this stuff
on Patreon slash Lane Moore.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Awesome, Lane, thank you so much for coming on mine down.
Really appreciate you.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I appreciate you too, Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Okay, all right, bye, girl bye.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Everyone go grab a copy of her new audiobook, You're
Not the only One f and Up Breaking the Endless
Cycle of Dating Mistakes, Available now
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